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  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,569
    Sandpit said:

    This is where life starts to get difficult for the PM. She may have had a whole cabinet written down or in her head, but when people start declining the roles offered to them...
    And don't forget that Theresa Villiers claims she's turned a role down - must have been high profile to be offered at this stage.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    chestnut said:

    You credit Cameron too much; the DWP/DSS/DHSS has always had that reputation.
    Not to quite the same level. ATOS, food banks, sanctions etc. have driven the DWP's reputation for potentially murderous callousness to new highs. Yes, I realise this started under Blair so we shouldn't blame it all on IDS. But I will anyway.

    Fuck you IDS.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,878
    *BREAKING* New post of Beverage Distribution Minister created for Andrea Leadsom.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    National Polls :

    Clinton 40 .. Trump 40 - CBS/NY Times
    Clinton 45 .. Trump 43 - YouGov/Economist
    Clinton 37 .. Trump 44 - Rasmussen
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    If we had a universal basic income run through the treasury, we would have no need of a DWP.

    Now there is a policy that deserves a second look. It couldn't be done while we were in the EU and 500m people could claim it, but deserves to now be worked through and costed properly - including the massive amount of bureaucracy it would save across numerous govt departments.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited July 2016

    BF now says its Pence, but some distance. Shame, I am on McSally.
    Yes, I think someone posted that Trump had spent the weekend with Spence (or vice versa). 538 made the point that running for VP on a losing ticket can kill your career, which might be why a lot of Republicans turned Trump down.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,175

    In terms of the value bet, I agree.
    Trump will announce there won't be one. I can see him saying: "Why do we need a role that isn't worth a bucket of piss" as LBJ (I think?) once said. Anyway his health is great, just great.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    eek said:


    While its entered folklore, folklore misses out that the entire Atos Origin disability test system was instigated and designed under Labour....
    Various versions of medical boarding have been around for decades and decades.

    The Work Focused Interview for the Disabled is a Labour invention though. It came into being around the time of Blair's second term.

    Atos followed on from SEMA as the private sector contractor, again Labour appointees. It was 'in house' before Labour privatised it if memory serves me correctly.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Hold on, why is there a Duchy of Lancaster, but not a Duchy of York?

    Or is it that Lancastrians need constant adult supervision?

    The Queen is the Duke of Lancaster (it's the core of what is now called the Crown Estates) and doesn't have the time to deal with the day to day administration.

    (Useless factoid - it's one of the few Dukedoms that has a female Duke rather than a Duchess)
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Trump will announce there won't be one. I can see him saying: "Why do we need a role that isn't worth a bucket of piss" as LBJ (I think?) once said. Anyway his health is great, just great.
    I've decided to make ME my Vice President! Who else would be able to replace ME except ME?!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,098
    Seems like noone wants DWP.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Chris said:

    *BREAKING* New post of Beverage Distribution Minister created for Andrea Leadsom.

    Has Leadsom got anything yet? Runner-up for leader surely earns some sort of prize.
  • Doesn't buying 'of the shelf' trains become a benefit if our systems align to those that are used on the continent?

    Sure I've read the budget for HS2 trains is massively pessimistic as Alstom and others build trains that can run on European really networks for fair less than is budgeted for

    If we use the same tech the there must be economies of scale savings surely
    We cant buy off the shelf European or any other trains as they would crash into the first bridge they try to go under.

    UK railways are built to an almost uniquely small maximum train size.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,175
    Sandpit said:

    Now there is a policy that deserves a second look. It couldn't be done while we were in the EU and 500m people could claim it, but deserves to now be worked through and costed properly - including the massive amount of bureaucracy it would save across numerous govt departments.
    Er, what. The reasons it wasn't done are none of the above. It has taken an eon to get to its current limited roll-out because the IT and backoffice logistics are an absolutely f**** nightmare.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,844
    When does Sarah Vine write her next column? Would like to be a fly on the wall in the Macbeth household right now!
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    chestnut said:

    Various versions of medical boarding have been around for decades and decades.

    The Work Focused Interview for the Disabled is a Labour invention though. It came into being around the time of Blair's second term.

    Atos followed on from SEMA as the private sector contractor, again Labour appointees. It was 'in house' before Labour privatised it if memory serves me correctly.
    One reason Corbynites are not that keen to have Blairites running the show again.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,242
    bunnco said:

    No. The happiest person is Liz Truss . It was Gove that gave her the bum steer to back Boris with all sorts of blandishments and promises only to leave her high and dry when he ran himself.

    Revenge is a meal best eaten cold. But in this case, it is also sweet. She's taken Gove's job as well as buried him.

    Mint!

    Bunnco Your Man on the Spot
    Gove is certainly not buried and will hopefully be back soon. Possibly the most talented politician in the whole party.
  • Was I the only one here wot watched Trainspotting Live?

    https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/753289495693422594
    No, me and the editor of The Sun did too lol
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,794
    tpfkar said:

    And don't forget that Theresa Villiers claims she's turned a role down - must have been high profile to be offered at this stage.
    Given the order of announcements and 'rumours' of Hunt being moved I think that the assumption is that she was offered Health - although it'd be an interesting choice to turn down what is a clear promotion (albeit with some very obvious issues)
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Not to quite the same level. ATOS, food banks, sanctions etc. have driven the DWP's reputation for potentially murderous callousness to new highs. Yes, I realise this started under Blair so we shouldn't blame it all on IDS. But I will anyway.

    Fuck you IDS.
    Sanctions have been around since Attlee.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    JackW said:

    National Polls :

    Clinton 40 .. Trump 40 - CBS/NY Times
    Clinton 45 .. Trump 43 - YouGov/Economist
    Clinton 37 .. Trump 44 - Rasmussen

    That Ras is a bad poll for Clinton. Realise it has a GOP lean but even so Obama was rarely behind in it.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    Sandpit said:

    Now there is a policy that deserves a second look. It couldn't be done while we were in the EU and 500m people could claim it, but deserves to now be worked through and costed properly - including the massive amount of bureaucracy it would save across numerous govt departments.
    Indeed. The Swiss had a referendum on it although the proposed level seemed very high, about twice our minimum wage.

    It's a Green Party policy but I think it's aspirational, i.e. something they plan on doing in the future but not quite yet.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,428
    edited July 2016

    We cant buy off the shelf European or any other trains as they would crash into the first bridge they try to go under.

    UK railways are built to an almost uniquely small maximum train size.

    And the deep-level London Tube lines are even smaller!
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    When does Sarah Vine write her next column? Would like to be a fly on the wall in the Macbeth household right now!

    Has Gove applied to take over Boris's column yet?
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    chestnut said:

    Sanctions have been around since Attlee.
    Not the practise of incentivising DWP staff by rewarding by the number of people they sanction, regardless of merit. That was IDS's stupid fucking idea.
  • MarcKleinMarcKlein Posts: 36
    JackW said:

    National Polls :

    Clinton 40 .. Trump 40 - CBS/NY Times
    Clinton 45 .. Trump 43 - YouGov/Economist
    Clinton 37 .. Trump 44 - Rasmussen

    Seems to be slipping away from Clinton.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    Trump will announce there won't be one. I can see him saying: "Why do we need a role that isn't worth a bucket of piss" as LBJ (I think?) once said. Anyway his health is great, just great.
    If that actually happened and Trump won, wouldn't the VP then be Clinton's running mate? That would be amusing.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    HaroldO said:

    Now that is the proper answer.
    Good man.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Gove is certainly not buried and will hopefully be back soon. Possibly the most talented politician in the whole party.
    I'm curious as to how you're defining "talent" here. To me, a politician who destroys his own career by making everyone loathe him isn't actually very good at politics.

    I'd say they were actually bad actually.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,966
    Someone say something that might convince me that this is better than we had before.

    For me this looks a far more mediocre cabinet than we had on 23rd June. The price of Brexit grows ever higher.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,098

    Not the practise of incentivising DWP staff by rewarding by the number of people they sanction, regardless of merit. That was IDS's stupid fucking idea.
    Is that true ?

    Sounds like an urban myth to me. Surely noone could be that mendacious/stupid ?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    Er, what. The reasons it wasn't done are none of the above. It has taken an eon to get to its current limited roll-out because the IT and backoffice logistics are an absolutely f**** nightmare.
    Yes, and a universal income would eliminate at a stroke the majority of the huge computer clusterf***s that have plagued several departments over the decades. There would need to be some sort of registration process at the start but after that it would require very little input.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,175
    MarcKlein said:

    Seems to be slipping away from Clinton.
    Not really started yet though have they? Having said that she is beatable.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,559
    edited July 2016

    Not the practise of incentivising DWP staff by rewarding by the number of people they sanction, regardless of merit. That was IDS's stupid fucking idea.
    I'm sure someone said that it's worse than that. Unless you hit your target for sanctions you end up in disciplinary...
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited July 2016
    Sky News - Grayling to Transport
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,381
    JackW said:

    National Polls :

    Clinton 40 .. Trump 40 - CBS/NY Times
    Clinton 45 .. Trump 43 - YouGov/Economist
    Clinton 37 .. Trump 44 - Rasmussen

    At this stage it's looking like another Nixon/Humphrey or Ford/Carter contest, in terms of its closeness.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Leadsom into Downing Street
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Leadsom arriving now, Grayling gets Transport.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,428

    Hold on, why is there a Duchy of Lancaster, but not a Duchy of York?

    Or is it that Lancastrians need constant adult supervision?

    Hang on, Prince Andrew is the Duke of York!

  • eekeek Posts: 29,559

    Er, what. The reasons it wasn't done are none of the above. It has taken an eon to get to its current limited roll-out because the IT and backoffice logistics are an absolutely f**** nightmare.
    That's universal credit.... One big reason is that HMRC won't give DWP access to their systems so they can't see what people are earning....
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Grayling is the Transport Secretary. Meh.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited July 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    Is that true ?

    Sounds like an urban myth to me. Surely noone could be that mendacious/stupid ?

    sadly true

    Staff that fail to sanction get pay cuts, staff that hand out sanctions with gay abandon get bonuses.

    It wouldn't have taken a genius to figure out what the end result of that would have been.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,098
    edited July 2016
    Leadsom to DWP would make perfect sense.

    Using the internal logic seemingly applied to the reshuffle.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,139
    Katie Hopkins will be planning something big to wrest the crown of moronic biliousness back.

    https://twitter.com/WelshGasDoc/status/753555816863657984
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Pulpstar said:

    Seems like noone wants DWP.

    IDS in downing st was mentioned earlier. Perhaps he's back.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    JackW said:

    Sky News - Grayling to Transport

    Grayling to Transport? Wasn't Transport due to be abolished half an hour ago?
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    DavidL said:

    Someone say something that might convince me that this is better than we had before.

    For me this looks a far more mediocre cabinet than we had on 23rd June. The price of Brexit grows ever higher.

    We've seeing a lot of deckchairs and some promotions - we've lost a great thinker in Gove, and a chunk of other talent - and some deadwood.

    I'm not convinced by this yet - some nice working class upgrades, but that's not enough.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,175

    Grayling to Transport? Wasn't Transport due to be abolished half an hour ago?
    Is he HS2 friendly?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sean_F said:

    At this stage it's looking like another Nixon/Humphrey or Ford/Carter contest, in terms of its closeness.
    Rasmussen trending to the norm for them !!

    National polls are useful but credible state swing polls are the key. Here Clinton maintains a distinctive edge.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,175

    IDS in downing st was mentioned earlier. Perhaps he's back.
    oh, kill me now.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,139
    DavidL said:

    Someone say something that might convince me that this is better than we had before.

    For me this looks a far more mediocre cabinet than we had on 23rd June. The price of Brexit grows ever higher.

    Still worth it?
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    oh, kill me now.
    Everyone see that? When the cops come, he asked for it.

  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Leadsom for Treasury Sec?

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Pulpstar said:

    Is that true ?

    Sounds like an urban myth to me. Surely noone could be that mendacious/stupid ?
    That's something that's been mentioned by loads of people, but with very little actual evidence. I've yet to see a link to a reputable source confirming the story.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    At this stage it's looking like another Nixon/Humphrey or Ford/Carter contest, in terms of its closeness.

    Think there's a 'shy' Trump factor in the states along the lines of shy UKIP / tories here?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454


    sadly true

    Staff that fail to sanction get pay cuts, staff that hand out sanctions with gay abandon get bonuses.

    It wouldn't have taken a genius to figure out what the end result of that would have been.
    The evidence linked a long way short of the conclusion attributed to it.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,428

    Grayling to Transport? Wasn't Transport due to be abolished half an hour ago?
    They were going to rip up the railways???
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    Is he HS2 friendly?
    I think Hammond pulled the trigger on it, so he may defend it in cabinet too.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,803
    Transport a bit disappointing for Grayling?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Pulpstar said:

    Is that true ?

    Sounds like an urban myth to me. Surely noone could be that mendacious/stupid ?
    It has been common practice for jobcentre staff to have benchmarks/targets related to their jobs (just like most professions) way before IDS/the Tories came on the scene.

    People who under-perform against the benchmark may end up being taken to task for unsatisfactory performance, people who over-performed may well get rewarded.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Grayling to Transport? Wasn't Transport due to be abolished half an hour ago?
    Hhhmm ....

    Might be SoS for Transportation ....

    Ozzie, Gove et al to Australia ?!? .. :smile:
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    The evidence linked a long way short of the conclusion attributed to it.
    The other explanation for the exponential increase in malicious sanctioning by DWP staff is they're all sociopaths who just want to watch the world burn. This is another possibility.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    They were going to rip up the railways???
    Yes -- see the tweet in the headline piece.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    The other explanation for the exponential increase in malicious sanctioning by DWP staff is they're all sociopaths who just want to watch the world burn. This is another possibility.
    Do you even know what exponential means?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited July 2016
    Sandpit said:

    That's something that's been mentioned by loads of people, but with very little actual evidence. I've yet to see a link to a reputable source confirming the story.
    It's the more excitable and partisan Guardian columnists citing other excitable and partisan Guardian columnists. Fortunately, under the new editor - who seems to be a LOT better than Rusbridger - the paper seems to be returning to high-quality journalism, so hopefully we'll see less such hysteria.
  • I think Hammond pulled the trigger on it, so he may defend it in cabinet too.

    Both Hammond and Grayling strong HS2 supporters
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Do you even know what exponential means?
    I think we covered it during my physics degree at Oxford.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,381
    JackW said:

    Rasmussen trending to the norm for them !!

    National polls are useful but credible state swing polls are the key. Here Clinton maintains a distinctive edge.
    Yes, I wouldn't pay too much attention to Rasmussen.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Katie Hopkins will be planning something big to wrest the crown of moronic biliousness back.

    https://twitter.com/WelshGasDoc/status/753555816863657984

    @InternetHippo

    Using Twitter will make you more concise, which is a useful skill. And it comes at the small cost of making you worse in every other way.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    I think we covered it during my physics degree at Oxford.
    Evidently not.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,381

    Katie Hopkins will be planning something big to wrest the crown of moronic biliousness back.

    https://twitter.com/WelshGasDoc/status/753555816863657984

    That's a classy post from Louise Mensch.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    chestnut said:

    It has been common practice for jobcentre staff to have benchmarks/targets related to their jobs (just like most professions) way before IDS/the Tories came on the scene.

    People who under-perform against the benchmark may end up being taken to task for unsatisfactory performance, people who over-performed may well get rewarded.

    The one employment sector that expanded due to that policy (Labour again) was security guards in JobCentres.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    taffys said:

    At this stage it's looking like another Nixon/Humphrey or Ford/Carter contest, in terms of its closeness.

    Think there's a 'shy' Trump factor in the states along the lines of shy UKIP / tories here?

    And shy Leavers
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Sean_F said:

    Yes, I wouldn't pay too much attention to Rasmussen.
    I think the US Presidential election is likely to break records for low turnout.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,129
    Ishmael_X said:

    @InternetHippo

    Using Twitter will make you more concise, which is a useful skill. And it comes at the small cost of making you worse in every other way.
    Perhaps Cameron's biggest gift to the world is his adage about Twitter, which people cotinue to prove every day.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @SophyRidgeSky: Damian Green gets Work and Pensions
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,878
    JackW said:

    Leadsom into Downing Street

    Don't get excited. She's only being given another opportunity to apologise.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited July 2016
    Trying to discover who's had the shortest times in office.

    I guessed David Laws, he managed 17 days

    Alas

    Arthur S
    @PlatoSays @FatherJones1 Beaverbrook was Minister of War Production for 15 days from 4 - 19 February 1942 before resigning.
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    Hmmm, Leadsom has just gone in.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Told you. DWP gets its cuddly wet.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    The one employment sector that expanded due to that policy (Labour again) was security guards in JobCentres.
    They removed the protective screens for the staff so needed to heavily increase the security presence.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,442
    Damian Green to DWP
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,098

    It's the more excitable and partisan Guardian columnist citing other excitable and partisan Guardian columnists. Fortunately, under the new editor - who seems to be a LOT better than Rusbridger - the paper seems to be returning to high-quality journalism, so hopefully we'll see less such hysteria.
    Journalism is in my opinion in a bit of a state at the moment, though there are very good ones out there.

    John Harris and Stephen Bush are two I pay particular attention to.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,803
    Scott_P said:

    @SophyRidgeSky: Damian Green gets Work and Pensions

    IDS won't be pleased.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,175
    Scott_P said:

    @SophyRidgeSky: Damian Green gets Work and Pensions

    Tell me this is true. Whoopee. A human in DWP.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    chestnut said:

    It has been common practice for jobcentre staff to have benchmarks/targets related to their jobs (just like most professions) way before IDS/the Tories came on the scene.

    People who under-perform against the benchmark may end up being taken to task for unsatisfactory performance, people who over-performed may well get rewarded.

    Quite. Analysis are done in all jobs, and a statistical pattern is established as to the expected percentages. It might be nationally 15% of applicants contravene the rules, but yours is 10% or 30%, and your colleagues rarely vary more than a couple of percent, it shows that something is wrong. Same for a traffic police who dont issue the expected number of speeding tickets or breathalysers.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Scott_P said:

    @SophyRidgeSky: Damian Green gets Work and Pensions

    Ha! Hadn't thought of that possibility, but he's a good choice.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,139
    edited July 2016
    Sean_F said:

    That's a classy post from Louise Mensch.
    I wasn't around when she posted on here. Was there any indication that such a morally retarded, fact-ignoring monster lurked within?
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    HaroldO said:

    Hmmm, Leadsom has just gone in.


    Perhaps May will make Leadsom Leader of the Opposition. She needs someone to fight with.

  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Sean_F said:

    Yes, I wouldn't pay too much attention to Rasmussen.
    I can't recall who did the analysis a few weeks ago into POTUS polling, but Rasmussen were right down at the bottom with Quinthingy for accuracy. Fox/WSJ/NBC were top three.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,175


    Perhaps May will make Leadsom Leader of the Opposition. She needs someone to fight with.

    :smiley:
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @SophyRidgeSky: Andrea Leadsom appointed Secretary of State for Environment & Rural Affairs
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647

    Gove is certainly not buried and will hopefully be back soon. Possibly the most talented politician in the whole party.
    Demonstrably not.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    Katie Hopkins will be planning something big to wrest the crown of moronic biliousness back.

    https://twitter.com/WelshGasDoc/status/753555816863657984

    What is wrong with Louise Mensch?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,803
    edited July 2016
    Scott_P said:

    @SophyRidgeSky: Andrea Leadsom appointed Secretary of State for Environment & Rural Affairs

    Is Andrea a "denier"? ;)
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    What is wrong with Louise Mensch?
    How long have you got?

    *pulls up a chair*
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Andrea Leadsom shows her inexperience even now

    The only person so far to confirm her job to journalists as she steps out the front door
This discussion has been closed.