KP says "let’s hope that the current generation of political leaders is up to the task". It's the hope that hurts, Kieran - you know and I know that they aren't.
And Laurie Penny is right about "lizard brains" however much you (and I) wish she wasn't. If you (or I) went walkabout in Romford Market, would we expect to survive?
Here are some lizard policies for Nigel and his chums:
- scrap all Equal Opportunity legislation - a large annual Poll Tax on graduates (except UKIP members) - introduce US-style firearms legislation "as a requirement of TTIP" - annual referenda on the three questions that get most support on internet petitions - scrap MPs pay and allowances - presumption of "justifiable homicide" in respect of anyone who kills a Labour MP, councillor or activist
Better be quick, Nigel, or Boris might get there first
Fundamentally, we are living through the backstory of "V for Vendetta"
Is it possible to agree to continued FoM as the price of Free Trade. and then once the deal is rubber stamped start using our reclaimeed national powers to reduce benefits for non-UK citizens?
The lack of immigration control would be hard to stomach for those for whom that was the main issue they voted. but it can easily be argued that a 52% vote means the views of the other side cannot be ignored. whether that reasoning is accepted is another matter. this may not matter to the conservatives who probably weren't going to get most of their votes anyway.
There is a really good point here that I am not sure on - if we did agree to FOM as part of EEA/EFTA, are we actually accepting the common citizenship of the EU? If not, are we not free to deny benefits to anyone who is coming from an EU country?
Market turmoil, Boris rolling back on ending free movement, NHS £350m a week revealed to be bollocks, firms holding back or cancelling investment and hiring. What a surprise, not.
"As Truth lies in the abstract and exists more clearly in our minds than in the natural world, philosophical contemplation -- rather than observation -- is the road toward Truth." or "Don't confuse me with the facts" Plato
I am still pro-eu, I think brexit is the wrong choice for our country (but potentially a good one long term for the EU itself, if not certain member states).
However, frankly, Remain lost. You can argue it was unfair, and it is indeed disappointing but not surprising to see Boris and other rowing back from campaign promises, but we should be pragmatic about it now, and try and influence the result to EEA, our next best bet.
Therefore, throwing back Boris' lies in his face is actually counter-productive.
In any case, all remain voters can be understood to have accepted free movement, and if even just 20% of leave voters are like most PB leavers here, they won't care much about FoM either. In other words there is a majority to keep FoM.
Remain Tories in particular should be unifying under this, to reassure big business, and as most immigration-leavers are in Labour northern seats, it won't be the Tories who pay the price for the 'betrayal' of the northern leavers.
Labour are screwed - they have lost Scotland, they are losing the northern seats, and if they make any moves to try and recapture the north they will lose the middle class ones to the Lib Dems or Greens.
@tobyperkinsmp: I have informed Jeremy Corbyn that I am resigning from my post of Shadow Armed Forces Minister. My letter attached. https://t.co/8ui8lGHVUP
Bigjohnowls was out by two hours - he predicted 10.00am
I am still pro-eu, I think brexit is the wrong choice for our country (but potentially a good one long term for the EU itself, if not certain member states).
However, frankly, Remain lost. You can argue it was unfair, and it is indeed disappointing but not surprising to see Boris and other rowing back from campaign promises, but we should be pragmatic about it now, and try and influence the result to EEA, our next best bet.
Therefore, throwing back Boris' lies in his face is actually counter-productive.
In any case, all remain voters can be understood to have accepted free movement, and if even just 20% of leave voters are like most PB leavers here, they won't care much about FoM either. In other words there is a majority to keep FoM.
Remain Tories in particular should be unifying under this, to reassure big business, and as most immigration-leavers are in Labour northern seats, it won't be the Tories who pay the price for the 'betrayal' of the northern leavers.
Labour are screwed - they have lost Scotland, they are losing the northern seats, and if they make any moves to try and recapture the north they will lose the middle class ones to the Lib Dems or Greens.
Oh and we are certainly going to leave the EU, even if the UK changed it's mind the EU will want us gone now, we have made our bed. There is no way the EU will accept the UK staying in the EU, we are a gangrenous arm for them now, they want us amputated as quickly as possible so they can move on to the next crisis!
What seems to be an entirely gratuitous addition to the problem is the complete meltdown in the Labour party. Corbyn is beyond useless and the referendum campaign demonstrated how little of any relevance he added to the national conversation but we all knew that didn't we?
What I am finding odd is that the shadow cabinet is taking this moment to completely undermine the Labour party as a credible opposition or alternative government. There are going to be a series of debates over the next few weeks about the implications of Brexit across government and it seems increasingly unlikely that Labour will even have spokesmen in place, let alone people on top of their briefs.
In the meantime it is giving the government breathing space that it probably does not deserve and is distracting the media focus on what happens next. It seems an odd combination of irresponsible and self-indulgent.
I can not work out which next leader market is more batshit insane. Con or Lab.
Milliband or Fox.
I think the leadership bets are fools markets.
Anyone truly competent or talented politically is not going to touch either PM or LotO. They are both toxic roles right now which will kill any career within a year (maybe two years for LotO).
Just a thought, is Faisal Islam a journo working for Sky or a tory/remain member of staff?
If I never saw Faisal again, it'd be too soon. You can take a man out of C4, but you can't take C4 out of the man. He's got an enormously high opinion of himself, wants to turn everything into a drama, and profoundly biased. His whole cleverdick manner has me reaching for the mute button.
I was very disappointed Sky employed him.
Typical.. don't like the message.. shoot the messenger
Perhaps the only way we can hope to get out of this mess is if Boris as PM has another change of mind.
He's now the best hope for Remain, ironically, as his opinions seem very flexible. I think a simple re-run would be hard to sell, but if Scotland leaves the UK, as it probably will, that changes the picture enough to make it worth asking the question again.
If Scotland leave it becomes is 46/54 vote instead of a 59/51 vote, no one is ever going to shift the 7-8m votes needed to change that, especially if the markets get through this week without a major nervous breakdown.
Gideon is certainly trying his damnedest to make sure the markets don't get through this week.
My low opinion of Osborne has been on record for a long time, compared to what I think of him, the views of Mr @AlanBrooke rank as a generous tribute
Good piece, Mr. Pedley. Lots of murmuring about a General Election (the Sun on Sunday's political editor was on Sky papers last night and said something along those lines too).
If there is one, might Article 50 and method of departure form the core of manifestos?
Could be a good way for the Lib Dems to bounce back.
At this stage, it would be as well handing the keys over to Sturgeon and Swinney and saying "get us out of this mess and you can have Scotland debt free and we'll give you £10bn a year for 25 years, please, pretty please. Help".
Would be cheaper than what Osborne seems to have planned.
Market turmoil, Boris rolling back on ending free movement, NHS £350m a week revealed to be bollocks, firms holding back or cancelling investment and hiring. What a surprise, not.
So its now been reduced to 'firms holding back or cancelling investment and hiring'.
We were told that all the car factories would shut down this week.
As far as I'm aware, nobody's said that. What's more likely is gradual adverse change. So for example, in the case of Airbus UK, production of current model work scope will continue at Hawarden. Production expansion or structures for the narrow body replacement. We'll see. I understand that favoured expert, Patrick Minford's, views on manufacturing are quite robust.
Those who accept the referendum as the will of the British people, the majority.
And a large minority who believe they were cheated because ... (1) lies were told and only Remainers are allowed to lie (2) the people voting are low-class chavs or elderly who shouldn't be allowed to vote, and (3) superior people like them clearly know best.
And they were shocked when people thought they had the right to air their own opinions.
It's worrying that such blindness exists. In a democracy ... no, this is silly, these children have had their favourite toy taken away and they're sulking. They hope the house sets on fire and they'll feel better about it. What's even more worrying is that these children include the CoE and other MPs.
How about appointing Carney as CoE? At least he's acting like an adult.
Chillax bruv.
Your lot won. However, it's possible we'll stay in the EU with a few bones thrown in. Would you be happy with that?
@DianaJohnsonMP: After @hilarybennmp sacking yesterday I have now written to Jeremy Corbyn to resign as a Shadow Foreign and Commonwealth Office minister.
I don't really think the stage managed "one an hour" resignation procession is really having much cut through any more. If anything, they are now undermining any effect they are trying to create.
Stage managed resignations in the Labour party is what Watson did to Blair. Funny how this is happening to Corbyn and yet no one knows who the organiser is... Meanwhile Watson has let it be known he is meeting Corbyn at 930am.
If Gove does not stand I think Leadsom may have a chance now. She is competent, had a City career before politics and tough and as she backed Leave she has an advantage over May. There will also inevitably be a Stop Boris movement
Project Teddy In The Corner seems to be getting into full swing - with Generation Snowflake in the vanguard at Glastonbury. Fuck 'em. They're now feeling pretty much the way a majority of the country has been feeling for over a quarter of a century. A clear majority in a referendum with a high turnout seems to have escaped their notice. The political choice in this country has been Tweedledum or Tweedledee for far too long. Moribund political parties are coming apart as it dawns on them they represent no-one. Fuck 'em too.
Btw, if Scotland does go independent and stays in the EU, what are their proposed nationality requirements to become a citizen? If I have a grandparent who is 1/2 scottish can I claim citizenship - I think that was the case as laid out in their 2014 white paper.
What seems to be an entirely gratuitous addition to the problem is the complete meltdown in the Labour party. Corbyn is beyond useless and the referendum campaign demonstrated how little of any relevance he added to the national conversation but we all knew that didn't we?
What I am finding odd is that the shadow cabinet is taking this moment to completely undermine the Labour party as a credible opposition or alternative government. There are going to be a series of debates over the next few weeks about the implications of Brexit across government and it seems increasingly unlikely that Labour will even have spokesmen in place, let alone people on top of their briefs.
In the meantime it is giving the government breathing space that it probably does not deserve and is distracting the media focus on what happens next. It seems an odd combination of irresponsible and self-indulgent.
Utter madness, and with no admission whatsoever that the quitters are the people who began the process of losing their core vote by failing to address their concerns.
Corbyn had to go, but doing it like this at this time is absolutely crazy.
Those who accept the referendum as the will of the British people, the majority.
And a large minority who believe they were cheated because ... (1) lies were told and only Remainers are allowed to lie (2) the people voting are low-class chavs or elderly who shouldn't be allowed to vote, and (3) superior people like them clearly know best.
And they were shocked when people thought they had the right to air their own opinions.
It's worrying that such blindness exists. In a democracy ... no, this is silly, these children have had their favourite toy taken away and they're sulking. They hope the house sets on fire and they'll feel better about it. What's even more worrying is that these children include the CoE and other MPs.
How about appointing Carney as CoE? At least he's acting like an adult.
Chillax bruv.
Your lot won. However, it's possible we'll stay in the EU with a few bones thrown in. Would you be happy with that?
I think @Paristonda is dead right, I think the EU wouldn't want us to continue even if we asked nicely.
Struggling to see the fuss over Boris's position on immigration. The whole point of voting Leave was that we now decide. And we will. Only thing that has changed is that parties now have to be open and honest about immigration policy (im looking at you Labour).
Next election will have:
Conservatives: EEA/single market option Labour: Open Borders UKIP: Full points based system Lib Dem: Reenter EU
Market turmoil, Boris rolling back on ending free movement, NHS £350m a week revealed to be bollocks, firms holding back or cancelling investment and hiring. What a surprise, not.
So its now been reduced to 'firms holding back or cancelling investment and hiring'.
We were told that all the car factories would shut down this week.
Nobody said that the car factories would shut this week. Typical abuse of the truth by a Leaver.
If Gove does not stand I think Leadsom may have a chance now. She is competent, had a City career before politics and tough and as she backed Leave she has an advantage over May. There will also inevitably be a Stop Boris movement
We currently have a government whose sole purpose is not to protect the citizens from economic meltdown, but a spiteful blocking of one man's career. Contemptible doesn't begin to do it justice.
Perhaps the only way we can hope to get out of this mess is if Boris as PM has another change of mind.
He's now the best hope for Remain, ironically, as his opinions seem very flexible. I think a simple re-run would be hard to sell, but if Scotland leaves the UK, as it probably will, that changes the picture enough to make it worth asking the question again.
Scotland leaving changes zilch, most Leave voters polled saw themselves as English anyway not British and it is inevitable now
Struggling to see the fuss over Boris's position on immigration. The whole point of voting Leave was that we now decide. And we will. Only thing that has changed is that parties now have to be open and honest about immigration policy (im looking at you Labour).
Next election will have:
Conservatives: EEA/single market option Labour: Open Borders UKIP: Full points based system Lib Dem: Reenter EU
Cant see that going well for Labour.
If Corbyn is Labour leader then you are right. If, by some miracle, he isn't, then you'll be wrong. The entire election will be fought on the lies that the Tory Leavers told.
Btw, if Scotland does go independent and stays in the EU, what are their proposed nationality requirements to become a citizen? If I have a grandparent who is 1/2 scottish can I claim citizenship - I think that was the case as laid out in their 2014 white paper.
Wouldn't that mean your great-grandparent is Scottish? Normally citizenship rules apply to grandparents, not great-grandparents.
Just a thought, is Faisal Islam a journo working for Sky or a tory/remain member of staff?
If I never saw Faisal again, it'd be too soon. You can take a man out of C4, but you can't take C4 out of the man. He's got an enormously high opinion of himself, wants to turn everything into a drama, and profoundly biased. His whole cleverdick manner has me reaching for the mute button.
I was very disappointed Sky employed him.
The referendum is over, and yet we are still in agreement from different sides of the political spectrum!
I have never witnessed a so called "interviewer" who so resolutely tried to prevent the interviewee saying anything in answer to a so-called "question" before reverting to talking over them. That applied to both of the Sky "interviews" he conducted. It is a pretty high bar and it is the sort of thing that just drags political debate into the gutter.
I wish more political interviewees would just take a long pause before answering, and then respond along the lines of "You gave me five words before interrupting my last attempt to answer you. How many words am I being allowed this time?"
If Gove does not stand I think Leadsom may have a chance now. She is competent, had a City career before politics and tough and as she backed Leave she has an advantage over May. There will also inevitably be a Stop Boris movement
We currently have a government whose sole purpose is not to protect the citizens from economic meltdown, but a spiteful blocking of one man's career. Contemptible doesn't begin to do it justice.
If there is an economic meltdown it will be directly attributable to the lies told by the people who will soon be replacing the current government.
I would be interested to know whether Conservative Leavers on here trust Johnson or May to actually deliver Brexit. Obviously they will say they will but are you happy with those assurances or would you prefer a leader who is more ideologically committed to Leave.
I won't be happy until Article 50 is triggered. It's pretty clear how unwilling most of the Establishment/media are to accept the will of the people. The last few days reminded me of the BBC over Hutton - and that's not a good thing.
I trust Gove completely.
Once the denial/anger phase is over - I'm a little anxious about the bargaining mindset. I don't believe in my head that anyone from Leave would be sucked in by that siren call. After 3 months of taking every insult going, they're not going to backtrack now.
I read Boris' article and took it as a pitch for PM, soothing words, healing wounds, listen to concerns da-de-da. It's typical of what every new winner says.
I'm very ambivalent about May - I really don't like her authoritarian streak, nor her endless side swapping for careerist reasons. She's a tough lady though and has the gravitas. Boris needs to show me he can be serious.
Then there is the internal renegotiation. Where all going to be shafted by Brexit in the short and medium term. The battle is for the long term. Now that the referendum is over and the useful idiots of the northern and welsh WWC have served their purpose the normal power structures ( elites and parliament ) will reassert themselves. The new dialectic will be between Tory, prosperous and southern leave areas and Remainia. The short and medium term is the easiest bit. The cuts necessitated by Leave can simply be concentrated on the northern WWC areas as the previous customers were. Scotland will punch above it's weight under Sturgeon. It's how the southern Leavers and Remainia reach synthesis that's key. I don't know how yet but it won't be pretty for the northern WWC who've suicide bombed our place in Europe.
Those wwc voters though can now guarantee UKIP a quarter of the vote and UKIP will be focused almost entirely on an anti immigration platform
If Gove does not stand I think Leadsom may have a chance now. She is competent, had a City career before politics and tough and as she backed Leave she has an advantage over May. There will also inevitably be a Stop Boris movement
We currently have a government whose sole purpose is not to protect the citizens from economic meltdown, but a spiteful blocking of one man's career. Contemptible doesn't begin to do it justice.
If there is an economic meltdown it will be directly attributable to the lies told by the people who will soon be replacing the current government.
You dont think the lies told by the current chancellor might have the slightest bearing on it ?
Btw, if Scotland does go independent and stays in the EU, what are their proposed nationality requirements to become a citizen? If I have a grandparent who is 1/2 scottish can I claim citizenship - I think that was the case as laid out in their 2014 white paper.
I was trying (and failing) to research this online last night.
If Gove does not stand I think Leadsom may have a chance now. She is competent, had a City career before politics and tough and as she backed Leave she has an advantage over May. There will also inevitably be a Stop Boris movement
We currently have a government whose sole purpose is not to protect the citizens from economic meltdown, but a spiteful blocking of one man's career. Contemptible doesn't begin to do it justice.
And your evidence is? Should Cameron and Osborne have departed immediately? There is a logical argument for that but how wouldit help protect the citizens from economic meltdown?
Market turmoil, Boris rolling back on ending free movement, NHS £350m a week revealed to be bollocks, firms holding back or cancelling investment and hiring. What a surprise, not.
So its now been reduced to 'firms holding back or cancelling investment and hiring'.
We were told that all the car factories would shut down this week.
I would be interested to know whether Conservative Leavers on here trust Johnson or May to actually deliver Brexit. Obviously they will say they will but are you happy with those assurances or would you prefer a leader who is more ideologically committed to Leave.
I won't be happy until Article 50 is triggered. It's pretty clear how unwilling most of the Establishment/media are to accept the will of the people. The last few days reminded me of the BBC over Hutton - and that's not a good thing.
I trust Gove completely.
Once the denial/anger phase is over - I'm a little anxious about the bargaining mindset. I don't believe in my head that anyone from Leave would be sucked in by that siren call. After 3 months of taking every insult going, they're not going to backtrack now.
I read Boris' article and took it as a pitch for PM, soothing words, healing wounds, listen to concerns da-de-da. It's typical of what every new winner says.
I'm very ambivalent about May - I really don't like her authoritarian streak, nor her endless side swapping for careerist reasons. She's a tough lady though and has the gravitas. Boris needs to show me he can be serious.
The Leave campaign are quite happy to keep Article 50 in the long grass, possibly for ever.
If Gove does not stand I think Leadsom may have a chance now. She is competent, had a City career before politics and tough and as she backed Leave she has an advantage over May. There will also inevitably be a Stop Boris movement
We currently have a government whose sole purpose is not to protect the citizens from economic meltdown, but a spiteful blocking of one man's career. Contemptible doesn't begin to do it justice.
If there is an economic meltdown it will be directly attributable to the lies told by the people who will soon be replacing the current government.
And if we don't have an economic meltdown that exposes the establishment as liars.
Btw, if Scotland does go independent and stays in the EU, what are their proposed nationality requirements to become a citizen? If I have a grandparent who is 1/2 scottish can I claim citizenship - I think that was the case as laid out in their 2014 white paper.
I think an Independent Scotland might be in need of a wall...
It was the Labour heartlands of the NE that led the way to Brexit. Does that mean that Jezza is now more in touch with Labour grass root opinion ( if not UK opinion) than those resigning from his shadcab team yesterday.
An interesting option for Corbyn is to replace some of the resigning shadow ministers with the three most respected figures of Lexit - Gisela Stuart, Frank Field and Kelvin Hokpins. If the Europhiles object, tough - they've already jumped ship. And I say that as a Europhile myself. It would simply signal that Labour was responding seriously to the Lexit WWC.
I think it would be premature to u turn to say the least, would cause chaos even on top of what we are already suffering, and I can see no viable way it could happen, but if the country to try turning back I don't see why it couldn't. As I said the paths to such a course do not seem viable and it would not eliminate chaos, but a vote out can be cancelled by a vote in. We are in effect committed and need to work on making it succeed, but if someone thinks it viable why shouldn't they try. Though I would think it would be a messy form of political suicide, there's always the possibility of turning back.
I would be interested to know whether Conservative Leavers on here trust Johnson or May to actually deliver Brexit. Obviously they will say they will but are you happy with those assurances or would you prefer a leader who is more ideologically committed to Leave.
I won't be happy until Article 50 is triggered. It's pretty clear how unwilling most of the Establishment/media are to accept the will of the people. The last few days reminded me of the BBC over Hutton - and that's not a good thing. The difference here is the media trying to overturn the will of the people, not a whitewash report.
I trust Gove completely.
Once the denial/anger phase is over - I'm a little anxious about the bargaining mindset. I don't believe in my head that anyone from Leave would be sucked in by that siren call. After 3 months of taking every insult going, they're not going to backtrack now.
I read Boris' article and took it as a pitch for PM, soothing words, healing wounds, listen to concerns da-de-da. It's typical of what every new winner says.
I'm very ambivalent about May - I really don't like her authoritarian streak, nor her endless side swapping for careerist reasons. She's a tough lady tough and has the gravitas. Boris needs to show me he can be serious.
You trust Gove completely to deliver £350 million a week extra for the NHS, ensure that all current subsidies and grants paid out by the EU are maintained in full, substantially reduce immigration, cut VAT, oversee an increase in wages, negotiate a plethora of beneficial trade deals, ensure there are no tax increases and increase access to housing?
Now, can I interest you in some magic beans I have come across?
Struggling to see the fuss over Boris's position on immigration. The whole point of voting Leave was that we now decide. And we will. Only thing that has changed is that parties now have to be open and honest about immigration policy (im looking at you Labour).
Next election will have:
Conservatives: EEA/single market option Labour: Open Borders UKIP: Full points based system Lib Dem: Reenter EU
Cant see that going well for Labour.
If Corbyn is Labour leader then you are right. If, by some miracle, he isn't, then you'll be wrong. The entire election will be fought on the lies that the Tory Leavers told.
In the present climate Labour have no chance, someone like Leadsom could negotiate an EFTA arrangement and then comfortably win the next election, she would easily beat Corbyn, Watson or McDonnell
Market turmoil, Boris rolling back on ending free movement, NHS £350m a week revealed to be bollocks, firms holding back or cancelling investment and hiring. What a surprise, not.
So its now been reduced to 'firms holding back or cancelling investment and hiring'.
We were told that all the car factories would shut down this week.
Blatant lie. Show me where anyone said that
Go look for yourself.
The establishment have already been exposed as liars.
'An interesting option for Corbyn is to replace some of the resigning shadow ministers with the three most respected figures of Lexit - Gisela Stuart, Frank Field and Kelvin Hokpins. If the Europhiles object, tough - they've already jumped ship. And I say that as a Europhile myself. It would simply signal that Labour was responding seriously to the Lexit WWC.'
Would any of those MP's want to be associated with Corbyn & IRA McDonnell ?
It was the Labour heartlands of the NE that led the way to Brexit. Does that mean that Jezza is now more in touch with Labour grass root opinion ( if not UK opinion) than those resigning from his shadcab team yesterday.
An interesting option for Corbyn is to replace some of the resigning shadow ministers with the three most respected figures of Lexit - Gisela Stuart, Frank Field and Kelvin Hokpins. If the Europhiles object, tough - they've already jumped ship. And I say that as a Europhile myself. It would simply signal that Labour was responding seriously to the Lexit WWC.
How do you square appointing Frank Field with Frank Field's call for Corbyn to go?
It was the Labour heartlands of the NE that led the way to Brexit. Does that mean that Jezza is now more in touch with Labour grass root opinion ( if not UK opinion) than those resigning from his shadcab team yesterday.
An interesting option for Corbyn is to replace some of the resigning shadow ministers with the three most respected figures of Lexit - Gisela Stuart, Frank Field and Kelvin Hokpins. If the Europhiles object, tough - they've already jumped ship. And I say that as a Europhile myself. It would simply signal that Labour was responding seriously to the Lexit WWC.
Frank Field said Mr Corbyn should go. (sky interview yesterday).
There were reports that Ms Stuarts statement after the Brexit result was anti-Corbyn, but I didn't see it.
It was the Labour heartlands of the NE that led the way to Brexit. Does that mean that Jezza is now more in touch with Labour grass root opinion ( if not UK opinion) than those resigning from his shadcab team yesterday.
An interesting option for Corbyn is to replace some of the resigning shadow ministers with the three most respected figures of Lexit - Gisela Stuart, Frank Field and Kelvin Hokpins. If the Europhiles object, tough - they've already jumped ship. And I say that as a Europhile myself. It would simply signal that Labour was responding seriously to the Lexit WWC.
If Gove does not stand I think Leadsom may have a chance now. She is competent, had a City career before politics and tough and as she backed Leave she has an advantage over May. There will also inevitably be a Stop Boris movement
We currently have a government whose sole purpose is not to protect the citizens from economic meltdown, but a spiteful blocking of one man's career. Contemptible doesn't begin to do it justice.
If Boris is not seen as the best choice to protect the economy it is not contemptible
If Gove does not stand I think Leadsom may have a chance now. She is competent, had a City career before politics and tough and as she backed Leave she has an advantage over May. There will also inevitably be a Stop Boris movement
We currently have a government whose sole purpose is not to protect the citizens from economic meltdown, but a spiteful blocking of one man's career. Contemptible doesn't begin to do it justice.
If there is an economic meltdown it will be directly attributable to the lies told by the people who will soon be replacing the current government.
And if we don't have an economic meltdown that exposes the establishment as liars.
The establishment - Leave and Remain - will say and do anything to hold onto its position. And it has been successful once again. An Etonian PM is about to be replaced by another Etonian PM, and everyone outside of the Commons will stay exactly where they are. The reality is that what Brexit will trigger over the longer term is less investment in the UK, a further decline in manufacturing, more cuts in public services and greater employment uncertainty. The establishment will be entirely unaffected.
Jeremy Corbyn has replaced 10 of the shadow ministers who resigned (or were sacked in Hilary Benn’s case).
The reshuffle involves moving Emily Thornberry from shadow defence minister to shadow foreign secretary, and replacing her with the new MP for Norwich South Clive Lewis.
Diane Abbott is also promoted to shadow health secretary.
Here’s the full list: Shadow Foreign Secretary - Emily Thornberry
Shadow Health Secretary – Diane Abbott
Shadow Education Secretary – Pat Glass
Shadow Transport Secretary – Andy McDonald
Shadow Defence Secretary – Clive Lewis
Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury – Rebecca Long-Bailey
Shadow International Development Secretary – Kate Osamor
Shadow Environment Food and Rural Affairs Secretary – Rachel Maskell
Shadow Voter Engagement and Youth Affairs – Cat Smith
BBC - Abbott - Corbyn will be able to fill front bench vacancies
"Diane Abbott, a key ally of Jeremy Corbyn, is grabbed by the BBC as she heads into Portcullis House in Westminster. She says she won't be changing her job in the looming reshuffle, and she's sure Mr Corbyn will be able to fill all the vacancies that are opening up."
Then there is the internal renegotiation. Where all going to be shafted by Brexit in the short and medium term. The battle is for the long term. Now that the referendum is over and the useful idiots of the northern and welsh WWC have served their purpose the normal power structures ( elites and parliament ) will reassert themselves. The new dialectic will be between Tory, prosperous and southern leave areas and Remainia. The short and medium term is the easiest bit. The cuts necessitated by Leave can simply be concentrated on the northern WWC areas as the previous customers were. Scotland will punch above it's weight under Sturgeon. It's how the southern Leavers and Remainia reach synthesis that's key. I don't know how yet but it won't be pretty for the northern WWC who've suicide bombed our place in Europe.
Those wwc voters though can now guarantee UKIP a quarter of the vote and UKIP will be focused almost entirely on an anti immigration platform
Will UKIP exist in 2020?
A backstory during the referendum campaign was intense faction fighting within UKIP. I think Suzanne Evans was sacked 3 times.
Struggling to see the fuss over Boris's position on immigration. The whole point of voting Leave was that we now decide. And we will. Only thing that has changed is that parties now have to be open and honest about immigration policy (im looking at you Labour).
Next election will have:
Conservatives: EEA/single market option Labour: Open Borders UKIP: Full points based system Lib Dem: Reenter EU
Cant see that going well for Labour.
If Corbyn is Labour leader then you are right. If, by some miracle, he isn't, then you'll be wrong. The entire election will be fought on the lies that the Tory Leavers told.
In the present climate Labour have no chance, someone like Leadsom could negotiate an EFTA arrangement and then comfortably win the next election, she would easily beat Corbyn, Watson or McDonnell
I have few concerns about Ms Leadsom, though even she could beat Jezza. McDonnell will never be leader as he would not get enough MPs to back him. I suspect Watson would have a chance of at least denying the Tories a majority, which has to be the first aim for Labour at the next GE.
I would be interested to know whether Conservative Leavers on here trust Johnson or May to actually deliver Brexit. Obviously they will say they will but are you happy with those assurances or would you prefer a leader who is more ideologically committed to Leave.
I won't be happy until Article 50 is triggered. It's pretty clear how unwilling most of the Establishment/media are to accept the will of the people. The last few days reminded me of the BBC over Hutton - and that's not a good thing. The difference here is the media trying to overturn the will of the people, not a whitewash report.
I trust Gove completely.
Once the denial/anger phase is over - I'm a little anxious about the bargaining mindset. I don't believe in my head that anyone from Leave would be sucked in by that siren call. After 3 months of taking every insult going, they're not going to backtrack now.
I read Boris' article and took it as a pitch for PM, soothing words, healing wounds, listen to concerns da-de-da. It's typical of what every new winner says.
I'm very ambivalent about May - I really don't like her authoritarian streak, nor her endless side swapping for careerist reasons. She's a tough lady tough and has the gravitas. Boris needs to show me he can be serious.
You trust Gove completely to deliver £350 million a week extra for the NHS, ensure that all current subsidies and grants paid out by the EU are maintained in full, substantially reduce immigration, cut VAT, oversee an increase in wages, negotiate a plethora of beneficial trade deals, ensure there are no tax increases and increase access to housing?
Now, can I interest you in some magic beans I have come across?
in the story the magic beans led to the goose with the golden eggs did they not
Had Remain won 51 to 49%, I suppose Labour would have really got the wipe out in the Northern Brexit voting heartlands. A bit like SLAB after the winning referendum after a lackluster campaign. Corbyn would have been Lamont and the new one pushed with great hope by the London would have become Murphy.
Jeremy Corbyn has replaced 10 of the shadow ministers who resigned (or were sacked in Hilary Benn’s case).
The reshuffle involves moving Emily Thornberry from shadow defence minister to shadow foreign secretary, and replacing her with the new MP for Norwich South Clive Lewis.
Diane Abbott is also promoted to shadow health secretary.
Here’s the full list: Shadow Foreign Secretary - Emily Thornberry
Shadow Health Secretary – Diane Abbott
Shadow Education Secretary – Pat Glass
Shadow Transport Secretary – Andy McDonald
Shadow Defence Secretary – Clive Lewis
Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury – Rebecca Long-Bailey
Shadow International Development Secretary – Kate Osamor
Shadow Environment Food and Rural Affairs Secretary – Rachel Maskell
Shadow Voter Engagement and Youth Affairs – Cat Smith
Those who accept the referendum as the will of the British people, the majority.
And a large minority who believe they were cheated because ... (1) lies were told and only Remainers are allowed to lie (2) the people voting are low-class chavs or elderly who shouldn't be allowed to vote, and (3) superior people like them clearly know best.
And they were shocked when people thought they had the right to air their own opinions.
It's worrying that such blindness exists. In a democracy ... no, this is silly, these children have had their favourite toy taken away and they're sulking. They hope the house sets on fire and they'll feel better about it. What's even more worrying is that these children include the CoE and other MPs.
How about appointing Carney as CoE? At least he's acting like an adult.
Chillax bruv.
Your lot won. However, it's possible we'll stay in the EU with a few bones thrown in. Would you be happy with that?
I think @Paristonda is dead right, I think the EU wouldn't want us to continue even if we asked nicely.
Reason number 4 there won't be a rerun, even if we want one.
Perhaps I can help (as I'm not a politics graduate so will speak simply).
Every four or five years, we elect a GOVERNMENT. They control the levers of power. The contending parties put forward a MANIFESTO which is their respective plans for the future.
The Government (see earlier) can gauge public support on issues by having a REFERENDUM. This is usually a binary option (yes or no) on a specific question. Once consulted, the Government proceed to implement this, because they control the levers of power (see earlier). Individual citizens or pressure groups have no power or responsibility to do this.
Jeremy Corbyn has replaced 10 of the shadow ministers who resigned (or were sacked in Hilary Benn’s case).
The reshuffle involves moving Emily Thornberry from shadow defence minister to shadow foreign secretary, and replacing her with the new MP for Norwich South Clive Lewis.
Diane Abbott is also promoted to shadow health secretary.
Here’s the full list: Shadow Foreign Secretary - Emily Thornberry
Shadow Health Secretary – Diane Abbott
Shadow Education Secretary – Pat Glass
Shadow Transport Secretary – Andy McDonald
Shadow Defence Secretary – Clive Lewis
Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury – Rebecca Long-Bailey
Shadow International Development Secretary – Kate Osamor
Shadow Environment Food and Rural Affairs Secretary – Rachel Maskell
Shadow Voter Engagement and Youth Affairs – Cat Smith
Shadow Northern Ireland Secretary – Dave Anderson
Who are these people!?
None entities wanting their 5 minutes in the sun....
So where does Corbyn find replacements for all these people resigning?
Hope he's got a magic people tree next to the money one.
No-one knows shadow ministers names anyway, so it doesn't much matter. TV shows just need half a dozen Labour spokespeople to phone for comments on various issues.
Btw, if Scotland does go independent and stays in the EU, what are their proposed nationality requirements to become a citizen? If I have a grandparent who is 1/2 scottish can I claim citizenship - I think that was the case as laid out in their 2014 white paper.
Wouldn't that mean your great-grandparent is Scottish? Normally citizenship rules apply to grandparents, not great-grandparents.
Yes my great-nan was fully scottish. I initially thought that was the case but looking at the SNP white paper which says:
"British nationals living outside Scotland who register with evidence of at least one parent who qualifies for Scottish citizenship."
"Citizens of any country, who register with evidence of a parent or grandparent who qualifies for Scottish citizenship."
Therefore, my nan counts as a British national living outside Scotland who qualifies for citizenship (because her mum would have qualified). Which means I can qualify off the back of my nan being eligible for citizenship?
Just a thought, is Faisal Islam a journo working for Sky or a tory/remain member of staff?
If I never saw Faisal again, it'd be too soon. You can take a man out of C4, but you can't take C4 out of the man. He's got an enormously high opinion of himself, wants to turn everything into a drama, and profoundly biased. His whole cleverdick manner has me reaching for the mute button.
I was very disappointed Sky employed him.
The referendum is over, and yet we are still in agreement from different sides of the political spectrum!
I have never witnessed a so called "interviewer" who so resolutely tried to prevent the interviewee saying anything in answer to a so-called "question" before reverting to talking over them. That applied to both of the Sky "interviews" he conducted. It is a pretty high bar and it is the sort of thing that just drags political debate into the gutter.
I wish more political interviewees would just take a long pause before answering, and then respond along the lines of "You gave me five words before interrupting my last attempt to answer you. How many words am I being allowed this time?"
Me too - it adds nothing when interviewers just overtalk and interrupt. Evan Davis is the worst - I can spend 10 mins listening and hear his opinion for 8m 30secs.
I would be interested to know whether Conservative Leavers on here trust Johnson or May to actually deliver Brexit. Obviously they will say they will but are you happy with those assurances or would you prefer a leader who is more ideologically committed to Leave.
I won't be happy until Article 50 is triggered. It's pretty clear how unwilling most of the Establishment/media are to accept the will of the people. The last few days reminded me of the BBC over Hutton - and that's not a good thing.
I trust Gove completely.
Once the denial/anger phase is over - I'm a little anxious about the bargaining mindset. I don't believe in my head that anyone from Leave would be sucked in by that siren call. After 3 months of taking every insult going, they're not going to backtrack now.
I read Boris' article and took it as a pitch for PM, soothing words, healing wounds, listen to concerns da-de-da. It's typical of what every new winner says.
I'm very ambivalent about May - I really don't like her authoritarian streak, nor her endless side swapping for careerist reasons. She's a tough lady though and has the gravitas. Boris needs to show me he can be serious.
The Leave campaign are quite happy to keep Article 50 in the long grass, possibly for ever.
Not forever.the pressure to declare is too high and they'd be eaten alive if they don't at some point. Only a new offer from the eu could prevent it being declared - conspiracy would be that's why we want to wait to declare, to get one - but they have for once been very clear and self interest would mean it should be belied that there won't be. Add to that as the people's will has been shown, realistically only the people's will being shown to change is needed to not declare after all. And any second ref would probably be lost. Either half s million switchers, much higher turnout for remain but not for leave and Scotland turning out again for remain, none of which is likely, is needed.
Comments
WHY DOESN'T THE GOVERNMENT HAVE A PLAN???!!!
Osborne: "here is our plan."
LIAR!!!
or "Don't confuse me with the facts"
Plato
However, frankly, Remain lost. You can argue it was unfair, and it is indeed disappointing but not surprising to see Boris and other rowing back from campaign promises, but we should be pragmatic about it now, and try and influence the result to EEA, our next best bet.
Therefore, throwing back Boris' lies in his face is actually counter-productive.
In any case, all remain voters can be understood to have accepted free movement, and if even just 20% of leave voters are like most PB leavers here, they won't care much about FoM either. In other words there is a majority to keep FoM.
Remain Tories in particular should be unifying under this, to reassure big business, and as most immigration-leavers are in Labour northern seats, it won't be the Tories who pay the price for the 'betrayal' of the northern leavers.
Labour are screwed - they have lost Scotland, they are losing the northern seats, and if they make any moves to try and recapture the north they will lose the middle class ones to the Lib Dems or Greens.
Milliband or Fox.
What I am finding odd is that the shadow cabinet is taking this moment to completely undermine the Labour party as a credible opposition or alternative government. There are going to be a series of debates over the next few weeks about the implications of Brexit across government and it seems increasingly unlikely that Labour will even have spokesmen in place, let alone people on top of their briefs.
In the meantime it is giving the government breathing space that it probably does not deserve and is distracting the media focus on what happens next. It seems an odd combination of irresponsible and self-indulgent.
@MrJacHart: Of course it isn't a 'planned' coup, this is the Labour Party - it is an unplanned coup https://t.co/DFJb25VaPb
Osborne: We don't have a Plan B
Brexiters: How can you not? Are you lying or incompetent?
Carney: Here's Plan B that we've been working on with Osborne for months.
Brexiters: Liar it is then.
Anyone truly competent or talented politically is not going to touch either PM or LotO. They are both toxic roles right now which will kill any career within a year (maybe two years for LotO).
Do you fell embarrassed having bleated and tweeted on behalf on a liar ?
Good piece, Mr. Pedley. Lots of murmuring about a General Election (the Sun on Sunday's political editor was on Sky papers last night and said something along those lines too).
If there is one, might Article 50 and method of departure form the core of manifestos?
Could be a good way for the Lib Dems to bounce back.
Would be cheaper than what Osborne seems to have planned.
Your lot won. However, it's possible we'll stay in the EU with a few bones thrown in. Would you be happy with that?
My 25s Kinnock Jr next Lab leader looking not completely a lost cause.
Corbyn had to go, but doing it like this at this time is absolutely crazy.
Next election will have:
Conservatives: EEA/single market option
Labour: Open Borders
UKIP: Full points based system
Lib Dem: Reenter EU
Cant see that going well for Labour.
She is going to run rings round him.
I have never witnessed a so called "interviewer" who so resolutely tried to prevent the interviewee saying anything in answer to a so-called "question" before reverting to talking over them. That applied to both of the Sky "interviews" he conducted. It is a pretty high bar and it is the sort of thing that just drags political debate into the gutter.
I wish more political interviewees would just take a long pause before answering, and then respond along the lines of "You gave me five words before interrupting my last attempt to answer you. How many words am I being allowed this time?"
I trust Gove completely.
Once the denial/anger phase is over - I'm a little anxious about the bargaining mindset. I don't believe in my head that anyone from Leave would be sucked in by that siren call. After 3 months of taking every insult going, they're not going to backtrack now.
I read Boris' article and took it as a pitch for PM, soothing words, healing wounds, listen to concerns da-de-da. It's typical of what every new winner says.
I'm very ambivalent about May - I really don't like her authoritarian streak, nor her endless side swapping for careerist reasons. She's a tough lady though and has the gravitas. Boris needs to show me he can be serious.
Now, can I interest you in some magic beans I have come across?
Remain: 31.2%
Leave: 68.8%"
twitter.com/minefornothing/status/746690150277668865
The establishment have already been exposed as liars.
'An interesting option for Corbyn is to replace some of the resigning shadow ministers with the three most respected figures of Lexit - Gisela Stuart, Frank Field and Kelvin Hokpins. If the Europhiles object, tough - they've already jumped ship. And I say that as a Europhile myself. It would simply signal that Labour was responding seriously to the Lexit WWC.'
Would any of those MP's want to be associated with Corbyn & IRA McDonnell ?
There were reports that Ms Stuarts statement after the Brexit result was anti-Corbyn, but I didn't see it.
Hope he's got a magic people tree next to the money one.
Jeremy Corbyn has replaced 10 of the shadow ministers who resigned (or were sacked in Hilary Benn’s case).
The reshuffle involves moving Emily Thornberry from shadow defence minister to shadow foreign secretary, and replacing her with the new MP for Norwich South Clive Lewis.
Diane Abbott is also promoted to shadow health secretary.
Here’s the full list:
Shadow Foreign Secretary - Emily Thornberry
Shadow Health Secretary – Diane Abbott
Shadow Education Secretary – Pat Glass
Shadow Transport Secretary – Andy McDonald
Shadow Defence Secretary – Clive Lewis
Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury – Rebecca Long-Bailey
Shadow International Development Secretary – Kate Osamor
Shadow Environment Food and Rural Affairs Secretary – Rachel Maskell
Shadow Voter Engagement and Youth Affairs – Cat Smith
Shadow Northern Ireland Secretary – Dave Anderson
"Diane Abbott, a key ally of Jeremy Corbyn, is grabbed by the BBC as she heads into Portcullis House in Westminster. She says she won't be changing her job in the looming reshuffle, and she's sure Mr Corbyn will be able to fill all the vacancies that are opening up."
no comment.
What a time to be alive!
A backstory during the referendum campaign was intense faction fighting within UKIP. I think Suzanne Evans was sacked 3 times.
Perhaps I can help (as I'm not a politics graduate so will speak simply).
Every four or five years, we elect a GOVERNMENT. They control the levers of power. The contending parties put forward a MANIFESTO which is their respective plans for the future.
The Government (see earlier) can gauge public support on issues by having a REFERENDUM. This is usually a binary option (yes or no) on a specific question. Once consulted, the Government proceed to implement this, because they control the levers of power (see earlier).
Individual citizens or pressure groups have no power or responsibility to do this.
Hope this is helpful.
Snap election anyone?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-36334488
"British nationals living outside Scotland who register with evidence of at least one parent who qualifies for Scottish citizenship."
"Citizens of any country, who register with evidence of a parent or grandparent who qualifies for Scottish citizenship."
Therefore, my nan counts as a British national living outside Scotland who qualifies for citizenship (because her mum would have qualified). Which means I can qualify off the back of my nan being eligible for citizenship?
@paulwaugh: Note @LadyBasildon + @SteveTheQuip are elected to their posts with an overwhelming mandate by their own peers (literally). Can't be sacked
Good day.
PMSL!