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  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    eek said:

    To be blunt he is. Roger is telling people to vote Remain not because Remain have won the argument but because a few people campaigning for Leave have used racist arguments... And because one person used a racist argument the entire campaign is contaminated by it

    Labour have spent decades saying you can't say that (insert statement) its racist. That cut down all argument discussion and police investigations into child abuse and rape in Rochdale and Bradford... I'm merely applying the same logic to Roger's utterly insane argument....

    Is it racist to point out that non EU immigrants are discriminated against versus EU immigrants to this country?

    Is it racist to want to extend the current immigration points system from non EU people to EU people as well?

    Is it racist to want to restrict the number of immigrants?

    If the answers are no, no and no, then what is racist about the LEAVE campaign?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214
    eek said:

    To be blunt he is. Roger is telling people to vote Remain not because Remain have won the argument but because a few people campaigning for Leave have used racist arguments... And because one person used a racist argument the entire campaign is contaminated by it

    Labour have spent decades saying you can't say that (insert statement) its racist. That cut down all argument discussion and police investigations into child abuse and rape in Rochdale and Bradford... I'm merely applying the same logic to Roger's utterly insane argument....

    Rotherham, not Bradford. (There was a case in Keighley, which is in Bradford District but neither the inhabitants of that town nor of the city that the district's named after are that keen on recognising the other).
  • Metcheck Weather Warning for S.E. England in particular:

    Valid From
    Wed 22 Jun 2016 : 14:00 BST(In 2hrs)
    Valid Until
    Thu 23 Jun 2016 : 22:00 BST (34hrs remaining)

    Weather Watch for Thunderstorms / Heavy Rain / Hail / Severe Wind Gusts

    A plume of unstable, moist air moves Northeast from France later this evening and overnight. We are expecting thunderstorms to develop across France and the Channel this afternoon, however the primary risk comes later this evening and overnight when organised multi-cell structures will approach the South and Southeast coast of England.

    These systems will have the potential for intense local rainfall (25-75mm) with flash flooding possible. Severe wind gusts are likely around the storms with gusts of 50-60mph possible for a time.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235

    Will Festival goers have requested a postal vote or proxy vote if they were intending to travel there on Wednesday?

    Tens of thousands of young people missing out on voting in the referendum?

    Does this muddy the waters?
    I'm sure they've all arranged a proxy vote or have postally voted already.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Personally I dont believe the polls - and looking at the Remain campaign, I am only reminded of the slightly desperate campaigns of Ed Miliband & the surreal comedy of Gordon Brown trying to get away from the Elvis impersonator.

    That aside, I have no crystal ball and the polls are MoE 50/50. Betting odds dont reflect that and offer excellent value for the punter, all funded by large unexplained Remain bets.

    Personally, I make no predictions, except the EU will fall and Cameron is finished with the Conservatives.
    Cameron's weird panic press conference and the impression he was losing told me it's uncomfortably close.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Hopefully, this is not the country we will become once Leave have won.

    A couple of my EU medical and nursing colleagues are becoming rather restless, all this hostility to EU migrants is making them fairly uncomfortable. One or two are talking about going back, or to Germany if we Leave.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,690
    Contains leader ratings. Ipsos Mori

    Brexit poll: Tories 'less united now than before start of EU referendum battle'

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-tories-less-united-now-than-before-start-of-eu-referendum-battle-a3277846.html

    Fieldwork a bit old
  • midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,112
    eek said:

    To be blunt he is. Roger is telling people to vote Remain not because Remain have won the argument but because a few people campaigning for Leave have used racist arguments... And because one person used a racist argument the entire campaign is contaminated by it

    Labour have spent decades saying you can't say that (insert statement) its racist. That cut down all argument discussion and police investigations into child abuse and rape in Rochdale and Bradford... I'm merely applying the same logic to Roger's utterly insane argument....

    You won't find me defending the politically correct attitude to racism that Labour have espoused. Where I do agree with Roger is that by basing their campaign almost entirely on immigration Leave have appealed to peoples basic instincts and prejudices. It's no surprise that Leaves support is largely made up of pensioners harking back to the halcyon days of yore, and lower educated groups who are looking to blame someone else for their misfortunes in life, but will in most cases end up in exactly the same place regardless of immigration levels.

    If you lie down with dogs you catch fleas.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,033
    Brexit supporters more likely to doubt evolution and climate change.
    "And when it comes to a far more well-established scientific theory, evolution, Brexit supporters are even more sceptical. Nearly half of Leave voters agree that those who question evolution “have a point”."
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,570

    Contains leader ratings. Ipsos Mori

    Brexit poll: Tories 'less united now than before start of EU referendum battle'

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-tories-less-united-now-than-before-start-of-eu-referendum-battle-a3277846.html

    Fieldwork a bit old

    I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    It's interesting that it's become linked with repossessions in folklore.

    The house price crash following the Lawson boom happened well before Black Wednesday, and the immediate effect of leaving the ERM was a rapid drop in interest rates.
    ...
    True, Mr Glenn, the house price crash started in the autumn of 1988, I remember it well because I had to move for work and was trying to sell at the time (took me until 1991 to sell the place and then for 20% less than the 1988 valuation). The repossessions and negative equity pain really only kicked in after Major had become prime minister.

    The UK being forced out of the ERM brought relief, but it was Major when chancellor that took us in and it was Major that tried to keep us in. The blame therefore can, I think, be laid at his door.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,570
    Just had my hair cut. All discussion of EU has been banned in my local barbers. There's been too many heated arguments in recent weeks.
  • This seems to resonate with the views of some REMAINers.

    "Millionaire comic and achingly right-on Labour moderate Robert Webb has deleted this late-night tweet calling Leave voters “thick people”:
    Before clarifying that actually he was only calling half the Wembley audience “stupid“:"
    http://order-order.com/2016/06/22/luvvies-say-leavers-thick-idiots/
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235

    Metcheck Weather Warning for S.E. England in particular:

    Valid From
    Wed 22 Jun 2016 : 14:00 BST(In 2hrs)
    Valid Until
    Thu 23 Jun 2016 : 22:00 BST (34hrs remaining)

    Weather Watch for Thunderstorms / Heavy Rain / Hail / Severe Wind Gusts

    A plume of unstable, moist air moves Northeast from France later this evening and overnight. We are expecting thunderstorms to develop across France and the Channel this afternoon, however the primary risk comes later this evening and overnight when organised multi-cell structures will approach the South and Southeast coast of England.

    These systems will have the potential for intense local rainfall (25-75mm) with flash flooding possible. Severe wind gusts are likely around the storms with gusts of 50-60mph possible for a time.

    Bad weather must favour "leave", they have the postal votes already IN. The runs on the board so to speak.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    They are just trying to butter us up, because of the jam we are in.
    They want us to share their pain.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    Contains leader ratings. Ipsos Mori

    Brexit poll: Tories 'less united now than before start of EU referendum battle'

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-tories-less-united-now-than-before-start-of-eu-referendum-battle-a3277846.html

    Fieldwork a bit old

    In other news: Bear seen entering heavily forested area with perforated paper on a roll.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,698
    welshowl said:

    Wouldn't deny that. I reckon magically making every day 5C warmer than last year's equivalent date would probably do more for national feel good factor than anything else. Funny thing is if you compare London and Melbourne's climate (rain fall is very similar) that's not far off.
    If you compare Newcastle and London, the difference is about the same.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352

    Metcheck Weather Warning for S.E. England in particular:

    Valid From
    Wed 22 Jun 2016 : 14:00 BST(In 2hrs)
    Valid Until
    Thu 23 Jun 2016 : 22:00 BST (34hrs remaining)

    Weather Watch for Thunderstorms / Heavy Rain / Hail / Severe Wind Gusts

    A plume of unstable, moist air moves Northeast from France later this evening and overnight. We are expecting thunderstorms to develop across France and the Channel this afternoon, however the primary risk comes later this evening and overnight when organised multi-cell structures will approach the South and Southeast coast of England.

    These systems will have the potential for intense local rainfall (25-75mm) with flash flooding possible. Severe wind gusts are likely around the storms with gusts of 50-60mph possible for a time.

    I'm hoping for some strong differential turnout.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017

    A couple of my EU medical and nursing colleagues are becoming rather restless, all this hostility to EU migrants is making them fairly uncomfortable. One or two are talking about going back, or to Germany if we Leave.

    Yep, one of my business partners has a Czech wife. She has been in tears over it and I think it's likely they'll leave the UK relatively soon. It's not been discussed, but he'll be able to run the EU office we are thinking about setting up. This will provide job opportunities that would have been available in London had we stayed in the single market.

  • The column to focus on is the "Gap" which is Hanretty's estimate of the lead Remain will have in each local authority, if the overall result is a tie.

    It's a bit confusing that he hasn't stripped out don't knows; I asked him on Twitter how he'd apportion them and he said 50-50 so the gaps should stay fairly similar (actually a slight trending towards 0).
    Thank you,
    Like others I was struggling with the DK and the spread.

    Out of interest whats your take on this-he has clearly done a lot of work and kudos for sharing it but I am not convinced I would use it on the night for betting purposes.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017

    It shows clearly how poorly we have been served since Thatcher left. Even pre-Blair Labour PMs cared about Britain and her people.

    Hopefully this is not the country we will become when Leave has won, part two.

  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Polruan said:

    They want us to share their pain.
    Tres bien. The Juncker prize for multilingual Euro punning is yours.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited June 2016
    If I'm right in the outcome, who will the leavers 'dump' the most blame on for their being robbed of righteous victory?

    The EU?
    Cammo?
    Osborne?
    Boris?
    Establishment?
    Goldman Sachs?
    TSE & OGH?
    BBC?

    or

    Nigel?

  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,835
    Pulpstar said:

    I'm sure they've all arranged a proxy vote or have postally voted already.
    Most people will be travelling Thursday. And will therefore vote before they go, if it was on their agenda to do so.
  • Guilt by association? Well by that measure who are REMAINers associating with according to Roger's rule?
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1321570/jihadist-preacher-anjem-choudary-backs-remain-because-eu-stops-unfair-deportations/
    Vote Leave fur ein Besser Meinhead. Jawohl.

    PS- I am a Piccadilly Circus Leg Before Wicket Englishman and did not do war crimes
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,197

    Inexplicably you seem to have overlooked several invasions and occupations of Scotland.
    And visa versa of course.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235

    If I'm right in the outcome, who will the leavers 'dump' the most blame on for their being robbed of righteous victory?

    The EU?
    Cammo?
    Osborne?
    Boris?
    Establishment?
    Goldman Sachs?
    BBC?

    or

    Nigel?

    Nigel Farage is a strong asset for "remain".
  • Contains leader ratings. Ipsos Mori
    Brexit poll: Tories 'less united now than before start of EU referendum battle'
    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-tories-less-united-now-than-before-start-of-eu-referendum-battle-a3277846.html

    It is an interesting tactic of REMAIN to have Cameron (net -26 rating) front their campaign and then push Farage to the front as the bogeyman, when Farage's ratings are at a net -6, so much better than Cameron.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,378
    I don't think Roger is intolerant, he just needs a safe space and a no platform policy for arguments he doesn't agree with.

    It makes sense to some of the young.
  • JessieShamusJessieShamus Posts: 70
    edited June 2016

    Yep, one of my business partners has a Czech wife. She has been in tears over it and I think it's likely they'll leave the UK relatively soon. It's not been discussed, but he'll be able to run the EU office we are thinking about setting up. This will provide job opportunities that would have been available in London had we stayed in the single market.

    Not sure why they should take it personally. Don't they want British to live in a democracy.

    ps, a foreign wife like a professional is 'invited', bit like someone in your own home. It is the uninvited and the idiots holding the door open for anyone off the street that are the issue. It is probably healthy for people to remember that the house has residents.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    welshowl said:

    In other news: Bear seen entering heavily forested area with perforated paper on a roll.
    Meanwhile the Pope confirms rumours that he is in fact a Catholic.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited June 2016

    Hopefully this is not the country we will become when Leave has won, part two.

    Yes, the frequently-seen Leaver view that those who disagree with them on the balance of the arguments 'don't care about Britain' is quite remarkably distasteful, as well as being self-evidently bonkers.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    If I'm right in the outcome, who will the leavers 'dump' the most blame on for their being robbed of righteous victory?

    The EU?
    Cammo?
    Osborne?
    Boris?
    Establishment?
    Goldman Sachs?
    TSE & OGH?
    BBC?

    or

    Nigel?

    The voters.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    A couple of my EU medical and nursing colleagues are becoming rather restless, all this hostility to EU migrants is making them fairly uncomfortable. One or two are talking about going back, or to Germany if we Leave.
    I trust Dr Sox that, if only in the interest of your patients, your are explaining to these restless colleagues that there is a difference between wishing to be able to control immigration and feelings towards individual immigrants.

    Just out of interest, have any of your colleagues personally suffered from any expression of ill feeling because of their nation of origin?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235

    It is an interesting tactic of REMAIN to have Cameron (net -26 rating) front their campaign and then push Farage to the front as the bogeyman, when Farage's ratings are at a net -6, so much better than Cameron.
    George Osborne has been strangely absent for the last few days...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017

    Not sure why they should take it personally. Don't they want British to live in a democracy.

    ps, a foreign wife like a professional is 'invited', bit like someone in your own home. It is the uninvited and the idiots holding the door open that are the issue.

    They see the posters, read the articles and hear the arguments: they are not welcome, they are not making a contribution, they are causing hardship and poverty. We are at "Breaking Point".

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,398

    Yep, one of my business partners has a Czech wife. She has been in tears over it and I think it's likely they'll leave the UK relatively soon. It's not been discussed, but he'll be able to run the EU office we are thinking about setting up. This will provide job opportunities that would have been available in London had we stayed in the single market.

    Give over. Leavers aren't demagogues. She'd be welcome to stay, as would future EU nationals, just not in unlimited numbers.

    We have to balance population growth and expansion with planning for infrastructure and maintaining good community cohesion.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069

    The voters.
    That would be both novel and brave
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    If I'm right in the outcome, who will the leavers 'dump' the most blame on for their being robbed of righteous victory?

    The EU?
    Cammo?
    Osborne?
    Boris?
    Establishment?
    Goldman Sachs?
    TSE & OGH?
    BBC?

    or

    Nigel?

    Cameron, of course. The whole thing is his fault for agreeing to their demands for a referendum, natch.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,473
    MTimT said:

    As I said yesterday, this is about the most stupid meme in existence. If all ideas espoused by any evil or nasty person were to become untouchable by association, it would not be acceptable to hold any decent or good idea. It is a world in which, essentially, no idea is acceptable.

    So, because a racist person gives money to St Jude's, we are all supposed to stop giving money to St Jude's ...

    Roger, you are capable of thinking, so think.
    I'm talking about THE CAMPAIGN The banner behind which ALL leavers are marching. If you you can't understand the difference between A CAMPAIGN and a few isolated people with disparate views then it's not me who has comprehension problems
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,690

    If I'm right in the outcome, who will the leavers 'dump' the most blame on for their being robbed of righteous victory?

    The EU?
    Cammo?
    Osborne?
    Boris?
    Establishment?
    Goldman Sachs?
    TSE & OGH?
    BBC?

    or

    Nigel?

    Why do you think I'm fleeing the country if Remain wins.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449

    Not sure why they should take it personally. Don't they want British to live in a democracy.

    ps, a foreign wife like a professional is 'invited', bit like someone in your own home. It is the uninvited and the idiots holding the door open that are the issue.


    The problem is that this referendum has exposed a rather nasty side of the British general public, which FPTP usually does a good job of hiding.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,398
    Pulpstar said:

    George Osborne has been strangely absent for the last few days...
    Contingency planning.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited June 2016

    Cameron, of course. The whole thing is his fault for agreeing to their demands for a referendum, natch.
    But Richard, many kippers assured us on a 'mensch' volume of effort pre-GE 2015 not least here on jolly old PB that cast iron Dave could never be trusted to deliver a referendum and never would.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017

    Give over. Leavers aren't demagogues. She'd be welcome to stay, as would future EU nationals, just not in unlimited numbers.

    We have to balance population growth and expansion with planning for infrastructure and maintaining good community cohesion.

    Of course, she would be welcome to stay. She's married to a high income Brit for a start. But her feeling - whether right or wrong - is that this is not the country she thought it was. I can't second guess that, I can only report it.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,570

    Give over. Leavers aren't demagogues. She'd be welcome to stay, as would future EU nationals, just not in unlimited numbers.

    We have to balance population growth and expansion with planning for infrastructure and maintaining good community cohesion.
    I've also heard of EU nationals who will leave on a Leave vote. They don't want to stay in a place that clearly doesn't want them. How real these thoughts are we will see.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069

    Why do you think I'm fleeing the country if Remain wins.
    That could swing it for us!
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited June 2016

    But Richard, many kippers assured us on a 'mensch' volume of effort pre-GE 2015 not least here on jolly old PB that cast iron Dave could never be trusted to deliver a referendum and never would.

    Yes, but they all ran away when I offered to give them £1000 if they were right. I never did understand why, given the certainty with which they expressed the view that Cameron could not be trusted.

  • The problem is that this referendum has exposed a rather nasty side of the British general public, which FPTP usually does a good job of hiding.

    No, the British are not nasty. They are very tolerant. That is why people come here.

    However, when it comes to explaining that hey, you are actually in my house, and I want it back, it may be a little awkward. We are not a doormat.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,136

    I would of course agree that the picture is fragile. An organisation that allows problems to fester and pile up sows the seeds of its eventual demise. I prefer an organisation taking some prudent actions to tackle its problems even if its just one problem fixed at a time. For the EU the fundamental problems are just kicked into the long grass and they hope something turns up to fix it.
    Thank God that our own government has a long-term economic plan ....
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    edited June 2016

    Give over. Leavers aren't demagogues. She'd be welcome to stay, as would future EU nationals, just not in unlimited numbers.

    We have to balance population growth and expansion with planning for infrastructure and maintaining good community cohesion.
    In what way do law-abiding, hard-working people who speak good English threaten community cohesion? What are you saying to them when you imply that they do?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,398

    Of course, she would be welcome to stay. She's married to a high income Brit for a start. But her feeling - whether right or wrong - is that this is not the country she thought it was. I can't second guess that, I can only report it.

    That's simply nonsense. We're a great country.

    My wife is a dual-national Bulgarian and is voting Leave. She was convinced by the democratic arguments.

  • They see the posters, read the articles and hear the arguments: they are not welcome, they are not making a contribution, they are causing hardship and poverty. We are at "Breaking Point".

    Surely they see the difference between the invited and the uninvited, and the millions of uninvited waiting?

    Perhaps they should see the valid concerns of the locals. If I were in their house, I would respect them, their house and their concerns. Just common courtesy.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Pulpstar said:

    George Osborne has been strangely absent for the last few days...
    Having threatened to increase taxes and cut spending if we voted to LEAVE, Osborne has been shut up in a cupboard by the REMAIN campaign.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,690

    That could swing it for us!
    I'm hoping Roy Hodgson comes out for Leave today.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,398
    Wanderer said:

    In what way do law-abiding, hard-working people who speak good English threaten community cohesion? What are saying to them when you imply that they do?
    Don't be a dick. I haven't implied they do.

    There is simply a rate at which new migrants can be accepted, adopted and assimilated into the community, making it cohensive and welcoming, and one where, if too high and too fast, it can lead to division and it polarising.

    This is simply common sense. But neither side seems to make any effort to understand the other on immigration.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I trust Dr Sox that, if only in the interest of your patients, your are explaining to these restless colleagues that there is a difference between wishing to be able to control immigration and feelings towards individual immigrants.

    Just out of interest, have any of your colleagues personally suffered from any expression of ill feeling because of their nation of origin?
    No, no one has to my knowledge had any personal abuse. They are simply getting the feeling that they are unwanted. Most come for a couple of years with the idea of returning. That has long been the case with other migrants, and peoples plans then develop. Before they know it they have been here for decades.

    What is happening is that they are reverting to their original plans.
  • Pulpstar said:

    George Osborne has been strangely absent for the last few days...
    He finally read about his own 2% polling ratings?
  • Contingency planning.
    ..... you mean job interviews?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017

    Surely they see the difference between the invited and the uninvited, and the millions of uninvited waiting?

    Perhaps they should see the valid concerns of the locals. If I were in their house, I would respect them, their house and their concerns. Just common courtesy.

    Of course. That's why they are likely to go. They don't want to be in the house anymore. They won't make a big fuss about it, they'll just up sticks. And for our business it will probably work out pretty well.

  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    I'm hoping Roy Hodgson comes out for Leave today.
    Hodgson wants to REMAIN in the EU.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    Thank you,
    Like others I was struggling with the DK and the spread.

    Out of interest whats your take on this-he has clearly done a lot of work and kudos for sharing it but I am not convinced I would use it on the night for betting purposes.
    I'll be trading the referendum all night. In lieu of anything else it's helpful, but it's important to recognise the big error bars. I've also seen specific authorities quoted by Curtice as a fair bit different. i.e. Remainians shouldn't despair if Sunderland is 56-44 Leave, and Leavers shouldn't panic if it's 50-50 (though both would rightly move the prices).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,690

    Hodgson wants to REMAIN in the EU.
    His tactics would imply otherwise
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,570

    Hodgson wants to REMAIN in the EU.
    He certainly wants to stay in France a bit longer.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017

    That's simply nonsense. We're a great country.

    My wife is a dual-national Bulgarian and is voting Leave. She was convinced by the democratic arguments.

    As we know, different people react in different ways. I am sure there are plenty of EU nationals who are not at all worried by the Leave campaign or upset by it. Others are. I was merely reporting one such case. Dr Fox was reporting another.

  • ReestevReestev Posts: 10
    Just received the expected must vote remain blurb from our CEO. Having discussed this with 10/11 other employees all except one found this unacceptable and will be voting Leave, most probably were in fairness.
    I wonder what difference, if any, these types of communication from the hierachy have on normal, everyday, hard working people?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,398

    I'll be trading the referendum all night. In lieu of anything else it's helpful, but it's important to recognise the big error bars. I've also seen specific authorities quoted by Curtice as a fair bit different. i.e. Remainians shouldn't despair if Sunderland is 56-44 Leave, and Leavers shouldn't panic if it's 50-50 (though both would rightly move the prices).
    I hope we can all agree we'll be glad when this is over.

    This campaign has gone on far, far too long.
  • midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,112

    It is an interesting tactic of REMAIN to have Cameron (net -26 rating) front their campaign and then push Farage to the front as the bogeyman, when Farage's ratings are at a net -6, so much better than Cameron.
    I'd imagine that Cameron compares favourably to Farage to most sane people. Plus Big Nige doesn't do that well in elections does he?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,570

    ..... you mean job interviews?
    Osborne was in Notts yesterday. Local newspaper covered it and probably TV news (didn't see that myself).
  • JennyFreemanJennyFreeman Posts: 488

    If I'm right in the outcome, who will the leavers 'dump' the most blame on for their being robbed of righteous victory?

    The EU?
    Cammo?
    Osborne?
    Boris?
    Establishment?
    Goldman Sachs?
    TSE & OGH?
    BBC?

    or

    Nigel?

    thomas mair I believe.

    The awful murder of Jo Cox took the wind out of Leave's sails.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    Reestev said:

    Just received the expected must vote remain blurb from our CEO. Having discussed this with 10/11 other employees all except one found this unacceptable and will be voting Leave, most probably were in fairness.
    I wonder what difference, if any, these types of communication from the hierachy have on normal, everyday, hard working people?

    No missives at my (small) work

    DLA Piper have sent a missive telling their employees that they can rearrange stuffs if needed in order to vote. No instructions.
  • midwinter said:

    I'd imagine that Cameron compares favourably to Farage to most sane people. Plus Big Nige doesn't do that well in elections does he?
    Are you joining the folk smearing LEAVErs as thick and insane?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    I hope we can all agree we'll be glad when this is over.

    This campaign has gone on far, far too long.
    God knows how Scotland coped.
  • I'm hoping Roy Hodgson comes out for Leave today.
    Speaking of which, I've backed Eddie Howe to get his job at odds of 12/1. Just worried that he may be a tad young however - he's only 38 - that said there aren't that many suitably impressive British candidates
  • Reestev said:

    Just received the expected must vote remain blurb from our CEO. Having discussed this with 10/11 other employees all except one found this unacceptable and will be voting Leave, most probably were in fairness.
    I wonder what difference, if any, these types of communication from the hierachy have on normal, everyday, hard working people?

    Often gets their backs up if they are urged to do something. Far better to praise and thank them and explain what is happening.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    midwinter said:

    I'd imagine that Cameron compares favourably to Farage to most sane people. Plus Big Nige doesn't do that well in elections does he?

    UKIP won the last elections for the European parliament.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Pulpstar said:

    DLA Piper have sent a missive telling their employees that they can rearrange stuffs if needed in order to vote. No instructions.

    For lawyers, it's a 'Heads we win, Tails you lose' referendum!
  • Hodgson wants to REMAIN in the EU.
    Hodgson would say he wants to WEMAIN.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,398

    As we know, different people react in different ways. I am sure there are plenty of EU nationals who are not at all worried by the Leave campaign or upset by it. Others are. I was merely reporting one such case. Dr Fox was reporting another.

    And I'm upset at Remain supporters constantly casting doubt on my common decency and basic humanity simply for wanting the UK to be a self-governing liberal democracy, and a different future for Europe.

    Maybe I was naive in thinking this campaign wouldn't get so bitter and nasty.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited June 2016
    Roger said:

    I'm talking about THE CAMPAIGN The banner behind which ALL leavers are marching. If you you can't understand the difference between A CAMPAIGN and a few isolated people with disparate views then it's not me who has comprehension problems
    Not all people with a view march under the banner. What is your comprehension problem with that?

    Because Jimmy Saville runs A CAMPAIGN for Stoke Mandeville, if I give money, which I would have done totally separately from THE CAMPAIGN, I am condoning child sexual molestation?

    Even you can see how stupid that position is.

    PS Perhaps you are also saying that, because the Borgias were Popes, all Catholics are tarred with their crimes? And perhaps more pertinently to you personally, because you supported Labour and help elect in Tony Blair, you are responsible for the Iraq War.
  • LucyJonesLucyJones Posts: 651

    No, no one has to my knowledge had any personal abuse. They are simply getting the feeling that they are unwanted. Most come for a couple of years with the idea of returning. That has long been the case with other migrants, and peoples plans then develop. Before they know it they have been here for decades.

    What is happening is that they are reverting to their original plans.
    Pah! I think its like those people who say they will leave the country if the Tories win/of Labour win. They never do.

    Useless anecdote of the day: Saw a 2-man BSE stall in Sevenoaks this morning. As I rushed past (car-park ticket about to expire), noticed they were being harangued by a woman who I would imagine to be Dutch (judging by her accent), who was talking animatedly about the misery the EU had caused in Southern Europe.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Don't be a dick. I haven't implied they do.

    There is simply a rate at which new migrants can be accepted, adopted and assimilated into the community, making it cohensive and welcoming, and one where, if too high and too fast, it can lead to division and it polarising.

    This is simply common sense. But neither side seems to make any effort to understand the other on immigration.
    You're implying that more than a certain (presumably low) number of French, German, Polish etc immigrants will damage community cohesion. Yet these are fellow Europeans, extremely similar to Britons culturally. What assimilation is needed?
  • Of course. That's why they are likely to go. They don't want to be in the house anymore. They won't make a big fuss about it, they'll just up sticks. And for our business it will probably work out pretty well.

    That works out well then. And UK will need to train locals rather than poach from abroad.

    BTW, foreign wives seem to be popular in the Brexit camp. Farage did it. Gisela Stuart settled also.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    No, no one has to my knowledge had any personal abuse. They are simply getting the feeling that they are unwanted. Most come for a couple of years with the idea of returning. That has long been the case with other migrants, and peoples plans then develop. Before they know it they have been here for decades.

    What is happening is that they are reverting to their original plans.
    Thanks for that, Doc. I am somewhat reassured. People deciding that it is time to return home is a different cauldron of octopus from someone being driven out because of personal threats.

    I have made that decision to come home three times and I think you too have lived and worked abroad and also returned. The reason we make those decisions are many, varied and personal.
  • That's simply nonsense. We're a great country.

    My wife is a dual-national Bulgarian and is voting Leave. She was convinced by the democratic arguments.
    Mine also comes from an EU country and is voting LEAVE. She cannot believe the stuff coming out from Cameron. For myself having lived and worked in many countries I am for LEAVE.
  • Reestev said:

    Just received the expected must vote remain blurb from our CEO. Having discussed this with 10/11 other employees all except one found this unacceptable and will be voting Leave, most probably were in fairness.
    I wonder what difference, if any, these types of communication from the hierachy have on normal, everyday, hard working people?

    Perhaps cynically, I'd suggest they a) show shareholders the CEO is *doing something*, and b) let the company say "we told you so" in the case of any post-Brexit recession induced redundancies.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Vote Leave fur ein Besser Meinhead. Jawohl.

    PS- I am a Piccadilly Circus Leg Before Wicket Englishman and did not do war crimes

    I don't like the sound of these 'ere boncentration bamps.
  • midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,112


    UKIP won the last elections for the European parliament.
    On a turnout of 35 percent. Many of whom were highly motivated Kippers.

    How did he get on in Thanet or Buckingham or Bromley?
  • I'll be trading the referendum all night. In lieu of anything else it's helpful, but it's important to recognise the big error bars. I've also seen specific authorities quoted by Curtice as a fair bit different. i.e. Remainians shouldn't despair if Sunderland is 56-44 Leave, and Leavers shouldn't panic if it's 50-50 (though both would rightly move the prices).
    Im hoping Sunderland will be at least 60-40 leave otherwise I might get tempted not to go to bed and waste an hour and a half listening to windbag punditry before falling asleep on the sofa 10 mins before the next result gets announced
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,136

    I know the IoW fairly well. There are some wealthy retirees in Bembridge, Seaview and Yarmouth but these are far outweighed by low income retirees from more working class backgrounds in London or the Midlands. What little work there is for locals is low income and largely low skill in the tourist, agricultural and nursing home sectors. The maritime industries tend to be pro-Leave too. There are some commuters to the mainland but mostly because it is far cheaper than Hampshire. East Wight is particularly popular with retired matelots from Portsmouth. Islanders are particularly insular and do not like change.

    It is the perfect storm for A high Leave vote.
    The Bristol/YouGov analysis had the most leave areas as South Staffs/Havering/north Kent/Lincs/Mansfield/coastal Essex. So I hope you got good odds on the IOW!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Well, IDS appears to have gone "all in"
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456

    Are you joining the folk smearing LEAVErs as thick and insane?
    I thought Nigels speech today was very robust, balanced and made the point which has not been debated as much in this referendum with the focus just being on economy and immigration, that the EU was mis-sold as a trading block but is really a project to create one state called Europe with one flag, one anthem, one army, one president, one currency, one set of laws, one people and little democracy. We have to choose which flag we want over us,
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,690

    NEW THREAD NEW THREAD

  • LucyJonesLucyJones Posts: 651

    I hope we can all agree we'll be glad when this is over.

    This campaign has gone on far, far too long.
    I don't think it has been long enough. Seriously. It has felt very rushed to me. Of course, we all know all why it has been rushed, which makes it even more frustrating.


  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    kjohnw said:

    We have to choose which flag we want over us,

    I saw that and thought "what an arse"
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,847

    Where do discredited opinion pollsters go to die? Is it the Angus Reid graveyard?

    The CreMORItorium

    *gets coat*
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,473
    edited June 2016
    Jonathan said:

    If I saw my vote as an endorsement of a campaign I would not vote. I expected better from the Remain campaign than the "don't be silly, nanny knows best" or "be afraid" arguments. Totally off-putting.


    It can be nothing else. If Marine Le Pen and the National Front win in France the image of France abroad and at home will change radically overnight whatever the motivation of the voters.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Reestev said:

    Just received the expected must vote remain blurb from our CEO. Having discussed this with 10/11 other employees all except one found this unacceptable and will be voting Leave, most probably were in fairness.
    I wonder what difference, if any, these types of communication from the hierachy have on normal, everyday, hard working people?

    I fear the risk is that employees look at the endemic shiteness of senior corporate management and ask themselves why they should trust management on this....
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017

    And I'm upset at Remain supporters constantly casting doubt on my common decency and basic humanity simply for wanting the UK to be a self-governing liberal democracy, and a different future for Europe.

    Maybe I was naive in thinking this campaign wouldn't get so bitter and nasty.

    I think we were all naïve about that.

This discussion has been closed.