My guess is that many people will vote Remain because of self-interest but are embarrassed to admit it because it's not the cool side at the moment.
I've just thought, what a shocking indictment it is of the Remain campaign that people are being encouraged to vote for purely selfish reasons and haven't been given one really good excuse in favour of Europe to hide their choice behind.
Are our politicians really so thick that they have learned nothing from Scotland?
I don't know, it's very difficult to present "positive" reasons when you are essentially campaigning for the status quo (or what it is in your interests to present as the status quo). In essence you are arguing that what we have is broadly good and change would be worse. But that's "project fear".
Well happy day - we reach the last campaign day of this EU frenzy... Just a few more hours to endure... how many recent recruits to PB will we lose come Friday I wonder... normally it's a fair few.
I also am astonished that 'isam' didn't appear during this campaign - whatever happened to him? He was very profitable to have on..... or has he been reborn anew?
A combination of the welfare state and the highest minimum wage in Europe - several countries still don't have one - will attract increasing numbers, especially with more countries waiting at the gate.
Where else in Europe can you manage to get £20k-£40k tax free from the government for your partner and children by undertaking 16 hours unskilled labour?
The EU certainly did not pay enough attention to the need for social policy convergence prior to admitting new members and that is causing migration.
Agree - but in my view Britain should change it's welfare policy in that case - it's not The EU's fault that we have a largely non-contributory system. In Spain it is simple - you want benefits you have to contribute first.
According to ITV, Jo Cox's birthday is going to be honoured worldwide on Wednesday.
Is there no stopping these people? Maybe Remain tellers in polling stations can wear special armbands and sad faces? And who would want to vote Leave if it meant spitting on the memory of a pretty MP whom before she got murdered they'd never heard of?
Do you know what? I wondered why the monarch hadn't got involved in the honouring of Jo Cox. My first thought was that she hadn't, because the general rule is that she is not seen to involve herself in House of Commons or other parliamentary stuff. Now it seems more likely that she or her advisers chose not to get involved in what was (and is) basically a Remain fest. Because they support Leave.
Maybe Remain tellers can wear badges with pictures of Jo Cox on, "killed for what she believed in", and Leave ones can wear hats festooned with the front page of the Sun: "'Tell me why on earth anyone in their right mind would vote Remain', asks Her Glorious Majesty".
Is that the faint smell of a lack of dignity? Or is it vomit?
Don't know how anyone can claim this to be a free and fair election. But I guess it was to be expected.
I'm very uncomfortable with the way her death has been exploited by "remain". Anecdotally I've seen one my facebook timeline one person's Grandad 'reconsidering their vote' due to Jo Cox.. If it is VERY close then "remain's" victory is undeniably tainted.
An interesting header, but a flawed one. The EZ does not cause population movements
The substantial increase in Portuguese, Spanish, Italians and Greeks in London is not because they like the climate.
The young Greek couple I met in Muswell Hill just a short while ago didn't arrive here because they thought working in a coffee shop was the best way to make use of their degrees.
Immigration fantasists? Deniers? I don't know which is more apt.
The rich in Greece country did not pay taxes (still don't), a succession of governments lied about the public finances. That is what buggered the Greek economy.
Maybe so but the rich in Greece are not the ones working in our cafes. It is the victims of the incompetence of their ruling class. As you repeatedly point out Southam it is always so.
I completely agree. And leaving the EU will not change that. As you observe, it will also make no difference to immigration levels for the foreseeable future, if at all.
No, no, we are going to have a horrendous recession and all of the businesses and immigrants are going to abandon ship along with half the indigenous crew, haven't you got the script?
An interesting header, but a flawed one. The EZ does not cause population movements
The substantial increase in Portuguese, Spanish, Italians and Greeks in London is not because they like the climate.
The young Greek couple I met in Muswell Hill just a short while ago didn't arrive here because they thought working in a coffee shop was the best way to make use of their degrees.
Immigration fantasists? Deniers? I don't know which is more apt.
The rich in Greece country did not pay taxes (still don't), a succession of governments lied about the public finances. That is what buggered the Greek economy.
That made precious little difference to migration until the eurozone woes impacted.
But if people had paid their taxes and governments had been honest it would not have happened in the first place. The source of Greece's woes lie in Greece.
I noticed an interesting denial by Number 10 yesterday. When Steve Hilton stated that Dave was told his figure was not possible, No 10 said "That is wrong."
I checked their quote. Number 10 were saying that in the three month period when Cameron was told, the immigration figures had fallen a little. Of course, they went back up in the next three month period. So their denial was really a non-denial. Now, is that a lie? Slippery things, denials when politicians are involved.
I would say that was more of a lie than the £350 million figure, which was the truth but not the whole truth.
My guess is that many people will vote Remain because of self-interest but are embarrassed to admit it because it's not the cool side at the moment.
I've just thought, what a shocking indictment it is of the Remain campaign that people are being encouraged to vote for purely selfish reasons and haven't been given one really good excuse in favour of Europe to hide their choice behind.
Are our politicians really so thick that they have learned nothing from Scotland?
As if the Leave votes are not out of self interest. Come off it. Seeking to get what you want is an act of self interest. No-one is going to vote for what they oppose.
My guess is that many people will vote Remain because of self-interest but are embarrassed to admit it because it's not the cool side at the moment.
I've just thought, what a shocking indictment it is of the Remain campaign that people are being encouraged to vote for purely selfish reasons and haven't been given one really good excuse in favour of Europe to hide their choice behind.
Are our politicians really so thick that they have learned nothing from Scotland?
As if the Leave votes are not out of self interest. Come off it. Seeking to get what you want is an act of self interest. No-one is going to vote for what they oppose.
Did I say they weren't? All I was saying was that Remain should have found some sort of noble excuse to wrap it in. Leave have done rather better by offering the fig leaf of national self-determination. Remain appears to have been pure scaremongering, and as you have often noted in such a campaign Leave would have the edge.
My guess is that many people will vote Remain because of self-interest but are embarrassed to admit it because it's not the cool side at the moment.
I've just thought, what a shocking indictment it is of the Remain campaign that people are being encouraged to vote for purely selfish reasons and haven't been given one really good excuse in favour of Europe to hide their choice behind.
Are our politicians really so thick that they have learned nothing from Scotland?
I don't know, it's very difficult to present "positive" reasons when you are essentially campaigning for the status quo (or what it is in your interests to present as the status quo). In essence you are arguing that what we have is broadly good and change would be worse. But that's "project fear".
But they haven't really attempted to do that. The message has been from (Corbyn and) Cameron, 'what we've got is shit terrible but the alternative is unimaginably awful.'
Great article, Mr Price. Absolutely agree on the need for fiscal transfers if the EZ is not to collapse. And fully expect that fiscal transfers at an effective level will be too much for German voters, so EZ collapse will happen sooner or later. The UK has to have distance before then.
Morning. A good article from Mr Price, and a good reply. The issue is that of demos and culture. Until the richer nations of the EU feel sufficiently European to want to subsidise the poorer nations where paying tax is seen as optional and 35 hours is seen as a working week, then the EU will be subject to these stresses and strains.
I agree that the UK needs to be either properly in or properly out - to keep fudging and can kicking helps no-one, especially the unemployed in the poorer countries.
According to a recent survey, France is also the country most desirous of seeing the UK leave the EU .... so there you have it!
REMAIN to p*ss off the French! You know it makes sense!
I noticed an interesting denial by Number 10 yesterday. When Steve Hilton stated that Dave was told his figure was not possible, No 10 said "That is wrong."
I checked their quote. Number 10 were saying that in the three month period when Cameron was told, the immigration figures had fallen a little. Of course, they went back up in the next three month period. So their denial was really a non-denial. Now, is that a lie? Slippery things, denials when politicians are involved.
I would say that was more of a lie than the £350 million figure, which was the truth but not the whole truth.
No
Steve Hilton said that Cameron had been explicitly told his figure was not achievable, and No 10 have explicitly denied that claim. They say no official told the PM his figure was not achievable.
It was an explicit denial of his claim, not a non-denial
In addition they said immigration was falling at the time Hilton referred to.
Well happy day - we reach the last campaign day of this EU frenzy... Just a few more hours to endure... how many recent recruits to PB will we lose come Friday I wonder... normally it's a fair few.
I also am astonished that 'isam' didn't appear during this campaign - whatever happened to him? He was very profitable to have on..... or has he been reborn anew?
I noticed an interesting denial by Number 10 yesterday. When Steve Hilton stated that Dave was told his figure was not possible, No 10 said "That is wrong."
I checked their quote. Number 10 were saying that in the three month period when Cameron was told, the immigration figures had fallen a little. Of course, they went back up in the next three month period. So their denial was really a non-denial. Now, is that a lie? Slippery things, denials when politicians are involved.
I would say that was more of a lie than the £350 million figure, which was the truth but not the whole truth.
No
Steve Hilton said that Cameron had been explicitly told his figure was not achievable, and No 10 have explicitly denied that claim. They say no official told the PM his figure was not achievable.
It was an explicit denial of his claim, not a non-denial
In addition they said immigration was falling at the time Hilton referred to.
Still don't know why Cameron promised to reduce immigration if its so good for us.
If Brexit will severely damaged the economy in the short term won't that reduce immigration, as there will be fewer vacancies?
Yes but it won't. If we vote for Brexit we will find the world depressingly familiar with the same range of problems we have today and an extremely similar economy bumbling along with modest growth struggling to correct its structural imbalances. This is neither a panacea nor Armageddon. But it is important.
An interesting header, but a flawed one. The EZ does not cause population movements
The substantial increase in Portuguese, Spanish, Italians and Greeks in London is not because they like the climate.
The young Greek couple I met in Muswell Hill just a short while ago didn't arrive here because they thought working in a coffee shop was the best way to make use of their degrees.
Immigration fantasists? Deniers? I don't know which is more apt.
The rich in Greece country did not pay taxes (still don't), a succession of governments lied about the public finances. That is what buggered the Greek economy.
That made precious little difference to migration until the eurozone woes impacted.
But if people had paid their taxes and governments had been honest it would not have happened in the first place. The source of Greece's woes lie in Greece.
The Greeks have made a national pastime out of tax avoidance, yet there were never the flows of people away from there in the numbers we have seen. The EZ was the trigger.
There have been substantial movements from all over the Med as well. Spanish and Italians are regularly in the top 4 EU migration nations to the UK. That often gets lost in conversations that usually centre on Romanians. The following data from the London Assembly illustrates;
According to ITV, Jo Cox's birthday is going to be honoured worldwide on Wednesday.
Is there no stopping these people? Maybe Remain tellers in polling stations can wear special armbands and sad faces? And who would want to vote Leave if it meant spitting on the memory of a pretty MP whom before she got murdered they'd never heard of?
Do you know what? I wondered why the monarch hadn't got involved in the honouring of Jo Cox. My first thought was that she hadn't, because the general rule is that she is not seen to involve herself in House of Commons or other parliamentary stuff. Now it seems more likely that she or her advisers chose not to get involved in what was (and is) basically a Remain fest. Because they support Leave.
Maybe Remain tellers can wear badges with pictures of Jo Cox on, "killed for what she believed in", and Leave ones can wear hats festooned with the front page of the Sun: "'Tell me why on earth anyone in their right mind would vote Remain', asks Her Glorious Majesty".
Is that the faint smell of a lack of dignity? Or is it vomit?
Don't know how anyone can claim this to be a free and fair election. But I guess it was to be expected.
I'm very uncomfortable with the way her death has been exploited by "remain". Anecdotally I've seen one my facebook timeline one person's Grandad 'reconsidering their vote' due to Jo Cox.. If it is VERY close then "remain's" victory is undeniably tainted.
The first MP murdered in decades just happens to be a Remain MP during an actual referendum on that very matter with someone giving a name in court that suggests they have the opposite view - and it's Remain who are 'tainted'? Sheesh.
If Brexit will severely damaged the economy in the short term won't that reduce immigration, as there will be fewer vacancies?
Given the lengthy notice period for leaving we could easierly see a short term spike as EU migrants rush to beat the door closing. In due course that might dent the post Brexit figures as some of the migration would have been brought forward.
Still don't know why Cameron promised to reduce immigration if its so good for us.
He underestimated how successful George Osborne was going to be at reviving the economy and creating jobs
Or, as Hilton says, he lied.
Only the lickspittles believe Cameron now, he's totally trashed, finished regardless. And what makes that even more entertaining is he did it all by himself with no help from anybody else.
I noticed an interesting denial by Number 10 yesterday. When Steve Hilton stated that Dave was told his figure was not possible, No 10 said "That is wrong."
I checked their quote. Number 10 were saying that in the three month period when Cameron was told, the immigration figures had fallen a little. Of course, they went back up in the next three month period. So their denial was really a non-denial. Now, is that a lie? Slippery things, denials when politicians are involved.
I would say that was more of a lie than the £350 million figure, which was the truth but not the whole truth.
Cameron's pledge to reduce immigration was dishonest. Brexit campaign's repetition of the claim is just as dishonest. As the prospectus for leaving the EU is built on this false claim, the consequences of Leave's repetition are vastly more serious than Cameron's original claim
If Brexit will severely damaged the economy in the short term won't that reduce immigration, as there will be fewer vacancies?
Short term I can't see Brexit making a fig leaf of difference to immigration. Tim Farron (yes yes I know I know) reckoned one of the companies in his constituency had a clause in their contract to supply Romania with some widgets that was contingent on EU membership so that business will suffer. The fall in the £ might help my employer with non EU exports (Which is the bulk of our book right now) as we often quote in £ and $ so that will be a positive. Overall I'd expect the £ weakening and the loss of contracts/fall in market cap of FTSE to be slightly net negative - but I( can't see it affecting migration for a fair while...
Too close to call is still my feeling. I just hope that the undecideds swing it for remain.
Very nervous...
The die is cast. We are having a referendum on immigration. The side that promises to reduce it will win. That was always going to be the case.
It's slightly more subtle than that. It is a question of who controls our borders - Britain or Brussels? If it is Britain and the voters feel they have been let down on the pledges made on immigration by British politicians, at least they can kick the buggers out. If Brussels? Not so much....
It boils down to retaining our right to kick the buggers out. The idea of perpetual politicians - waking up to them day after day, no end in sight, no end even possible - that is at the heart of this.
According to ITV, Jo Cox's birthday is going to be honoured worldwide on Wednesday.
Is there no stopping these people? Maybe Remain tellers in polling stations can wear special armbands and sad faces? And who would want to vote Leave if it meant spitting on the memory of a pretty MP whom before she got murdered they'd never heard of?
Do you know what? I wondered why the monarch hadn't got involved in the honouring of Jo Cox. My first thought was that she hadn't, because the general rule is that she is not seen to involve herself in House of Commons or other parliamentary stuff. Now it seems more likely that she or her advisers chose not to get involved in what was (and is) basically a Remain fest. Because they support Leave.
Maybe Remain tellers can wear badges with pictures of Jo Cox on, "killed for what she believed in", and Leave ones can wear hats festooned with the front page of the Sun: "'Tell me why on earth anyone in their right mind would vote Remain', asks Her Glorious Majesty".
Is that the faint smell of a lack of dignity? Or is it vomit?
Don't know how anyone can claim this to be a free and fair election. But I guess it was to be expected.
I'm very uncomfortable with the way her death has been exploited by "remain". Anecdotally I've seen one my facebook timeline one person's Grandad 'reconsidering their vote' due to Jo Cox.. If it is VERY close then "remain's" victory is undeniably tainted.
The first MP murdered in decades just happens to be a Remain MP during an actual referendum on that very matter with someone giving a name in court that suggests they have the opposite view - and it's Remain who are 'tainted'? Sheesh.
If it had been a Brexit MP I'd say exactly the same.
Being in London I expected Remain to coast it last night, what struck me most was the response to the closing speeches, Boris' ovation was far far stronger than Davidson's. That hectoring Scottish accent put me in mind of Sturgeon, close your eyes it could have been her, big mistake by Remain.
I never imagined a day before the referendum it could be this close, I hope that the enthusiasm of Leave versus the head shaking disbelief of Remain prevails. The mood on the country will soar if we Leave, of that I'm convinced, Boris talking of Independence Day struck exactly the right chord.
It was Sturgeon without the class, for me she came across as a gurning fishwife. Kahn was useless and the union leader was on a different planet. On the other side Boris was his usual avuncular self and the two ladies were very eloquent, no need for pointy fingers and shouting like the Remainers. I cannot see how anyone after watching that would want to trust or vote for the Remain side, they came across a as shifty , do as I tell you or else you thickos , bunch.
According to ITV, Jo Cox's birthday is going to be honoured worldwide on Wednesday.
Is there no stopping these people? Maybe Remain tellers in polling stations can wear special armbands and sad faces? And who would want to vote Leave if it meant spitting on the memory of a pretty MP whom before she got murdered they'd never heard of?
Do you know what? I wondered why the monarch hadn't got involved in the honouring of Jo Cox. My first thought was that she hadn't, because the general rule is that she is not seen to involve herself in House of Commons or other parliamentary stuff. Now it seems more likely that she or her advisers chose not to get involved in what was (and is) basically a Remain fest. Because they support Leave.
Maybe Remain tellers can wear badges with pictures of Jo Cox on, "killed for what she believed in", and Leave ones can wear hats festooned with the front page of the Sun: "'Tell me why on earth anyone in their right mind would vote Remain', asks Her Glorious Majesty".
Is that the faint smell of a lack of dignity? Or is it vomit?
Don't know how anyone can claim this to be a free and fair election. But I guess it was to be expected.
I'm very uncomfortable with the way her death has been exploited by "remain". Anecdotally I've seen one my facebook timeline one person's Grandad 'reconsidering their vote' due to Jo Cox.. If it is VERY close then "remain's" victory is undeniably tainted.
The first MP murdered in decades just happens to be a Remain MP during an actual referendum on that very matter with someone giving a name in court that suggests they have the opposite view - and it's Remain who are 'tainted'? Sheesh.
If it had been a Brexit MP I'd say exactly the same.
Well happy day - we reach the last campaign day of this EU frenzy... Just a few more hours to endure... how many recent recruits to PB will we lose come Friday I wonder... normally it's a fair few.
I also am astonished that 'isam' didn't appear during this campaign - whatever happened to him? He was very profitable to have on..... or has he been reborn anew?
Well happy day - we reach the last campaign day of this EU frenzy... Just a few more hours to endure... how many recent recruits to PB will we lose come Friday I wonder... normally it's a fair few.
I also am astonished that 'isam' didn't appear during this campaign - whatever happened to him? He was very profitable to have on..... or has he been reborn anew?
"It was an explicit denial of his claim, not a non-denial."
So someone is telling large porkies. Yet no one is interested in investigating. Now why do you think that is? I would say this is very serious and needs settling. Either the PM's current spokesman or his previous chief advisor are fantasists.
I can guarantee that Cameron will NOT order an enquiry.
You will believe Cameron, I have serious doubts. What relevance does "In addition they said immigration was falling at the time Hilton referred to." have? He was either told or he wasn't.
Well happy day - we reach the last campaign day of this EU frenzy... Just a few more hours to endure... how many recent recruits to PB will we lose come Friday I wonder... normally it's a fair few.
I also am astonished that 'isam' didn't appear during this campaign - whatever happened to him? He was very profitable to have on..... or has he been reborn anew?
I thought he was banned for being naughty.
On that note, is Sean banned for good or just until he sobers up?
Still don't know why Cameron promised to reduce immigration if its so good for us.
He underestimated how successful George Osborne was going to be at reviving the economy and creating jobs
Britain's relative economic success to the EU block is clearly a big factor.... a DIY recession would be a 'brave' tactic to reduce the pull. I'm off however as I fear otherwise I'm in danger of getting thrown out of my own party this morning...
The first MP murdered in decades just happens to be a Remain MP during an actual referendum on that very matter with someone giving a name in court that suggests they have the opposite view - and it's Remain who are 'tainted'? Sheesh.
It's not the tragic death of Jo Cox which is tainting Remain, it is the way Remain have shamelessly exploited the tragedy to try and boost their shambolic campaign.
On a slight side note, I only just found out that today is Jo Cox birthday. Conspiracy nuts will dine out on this for years.
Well happy day - we reach the last campaign day of this EU frenzy... Just a few more hours to endure... how many recent recruits to PB will we lose come Friday I wonder... normally it's a fair few.
I also am astonished that 'isam' didn't appear during this campaign - whatever happened to him? He was very profitable to have on..... or has he been reborn anew?
I thought he was banned for being naughty.
On that note, is Sean banned for good or just until he sobers up?
He was being retweeted by James Delingpole last night... that's an automatic 2-game ban.
Well happy day - we reach the last campaign day of this EU frenzy... Just a few more hours to endure... how many recent recruits to PB will we lose come Friday I wonder... normally it's a fair few.
I also am astonished that 'isam' didn't appear during this campaign - whatever happened to him? He was very profitable to have on..... or has he been reborn anew?
I thought he was banned for being naughty.
On that note, is Sean banned for good or just until he sobers up?
The first MP murdered in decades just happens to be a Remain MP during an actual referendum on that very matter with someone giving a name in court that suggests they have the opposite view - and it's Remain who are 'tainted'? Sheesh.
It's not the tragic death of Jo Cox which is tainting Remain, it is the way Remain have shamelessly exploited the tragedy to try and boost their shambolic campaign.
On a slight side note, I only just found out that today is Jo Cox birthday. Conspiracy nuts will dine out on this for years.
Where else in Europe can you manage to get £20k-£40k tax free from the government for your partner and children by undertaking 16 hours unskilled labour?
You can't get that here either. Your point being?
Let's all try and stick to facts and not the forgeries of the Express or the European Commission.
But Mr Cameron has denied the claim and told ITV: "Well it's simply not right actually.
"When Steve Hilton left Downing Street in 2012 immigration, net immigration had actually fallen quite substantially. It had got down to just after he left about 154,000 so not far away from the ambition that I ..."
No mention of denying the claim. Could you provide a direct link, please?
And it was always an ambition only? Exactly as I predicted.
Well happy day - we reach the last campaign day of this EU frenzy... Just a few more hours to endure... how many recent recruits to PB will we lose come Friday I wonder... normally it's a fair few.
I also am astonished that 'isam' didn't appear during this campaign - whatever happened to him? He was very profitable to have on..... or has he been reborn anew?
I thought he was banned for being naughty.
On that note, is Sean banned for good or just until he sobers up?
Usually the latter
Lol.
He did come over all Dacre last night. Before the mods got to him poor old Nick was on the end of a Double *******
An interesting header, but a flawed one. The EZ does not cause population movements
The substantial increase in Portuguese, Spanish, Italians and Greeks in London is not because they like the climate.
The young Greek couple I met in Muswell Hill just a short while ago didn't arrive here because they thought working in a coffee shop was the best way to make use of their degrees.
Immigration fantasists? Deniers? I don't know which is more apt.
The rich in Greece country did not pay taxes (still don't), a succession of governments lied about the public finances. That is what buggered the Greek economy.
That made precious little difference to migration until the eurozone woes impacted.
But if people had paid their taxes and governments had been honest it would not have happened in the first place. The source of Greece's woes lie in Greece.
The Greeks have made a national pastime out of tax avoidance, yet there were never the flows of people away from there in the numbers we have seen. The EZ was the trigger.
There have been substantial movements from all over the Med as well. Spanish and Italians are regularly in the top 4 EU migration nations to the UK. That often gets lost in conversations that usually centre on Romanians. The following data from the London Assembly illustrates;
Greeks in London
2004: 15,000 2010: 16,000 2014: 29,000
Italians in London
2004: 49,000 2010: 45,000 2014: 97,000
I wonder what the figures are for Brits living in southern Europe.
Dave on at 8.10 and will talk about post-Remain free movement negotiations.
Is this the black swan?
There can't be any post remain negotiations. Our EU masters have already said that free movement is non negotiable.
Yes, it's something anyone voting "remain" must accept. OTOH free movement of people in the long term makes emigration more possible and immigration less sticky than non free movement. If we vote to remain we simply must switch to an entirely contributory benefits system as EU and British citizens are fungible.
An interesting header, but a flawed one. The EZ does not cause population movements
The substantial increase in Portuguese, Spanish, Italians and Greeks in London is not because they like the climate.
The young Greek couple I met in Muswell Hill just a short while ago didn't arrive here because they thought working in a coffee shop was the best way to make use of their degrees.
Immigration fantasists? Deniers? I don't know which is more apt.
The rich in Greece country did not pay taxes (still don't), a succession of governments lied about the public finances. That is what buggered the Greek economy.
That made precious little difference to migration until the eurozone woes impacted.
But if people had paid their taxes and governments had been honest it would not have happened in the first place. The source of Greece's woes lie in Greece.
The Greeks have made a national pastime out of tax avoidance, yet there were never the flows of people away from there in the numbers we have seen. The EZ was the trigger.
There have been substantial movements from all over the Med as well. Spanish and Italians are regularly in the top 4 EU migration nations to the UK. That often gets lost in conversations that usually centre on Romanians. The following data from the London Assembly illustrates;
Greeks in London
2004: 15,000 2010: 16,000 2014: 29,000
Italians in London
2004: 49,000 2010: 45,000 2014: 97,000
I wonder what the figures are for Brits living in southern Europe.
This referendum debate has been the nastiest brutal hate fest I can remember as I approach 40. The idea that its all over on Friday is plain wrong - its not just the Tories town apart by this, its the country.
Regardless of the result at least one side will be Highly Aggrieved by the actions of their fellow citizens. If we vote to remain we can expect a surge in sneering from the commentariat and establishment politicians only matched by a surge in support for UKIP. If the vote is to leave we can expect a surge of wailing from the commentariat and the sight of the Tories and possibly Labour falling apart.
Well happy day - we reach the last campaign day of this EU frenzy... Just a few more hours to endure... how many recent recruits to PB will we lose come Friday I wonder... normally it's a fair few.
I also am astonished that 'isam' didn't appear during this campaign - whatever happened to him? He was very profitable to have on..... or has he been reborn anew?
I thought he was banned for being naughty.
On that note, is Sean banned for good or just until he sobers up?
He was being retweeted by James Delingpole last night... that's an automatic 2-game ban.
How many games for being retweeted by Louise Mench?
This referendum debate has been the nastiest brutal hate fest I can remember as I approach 40. The idea that its all over on Friday is plain wrong - its not just the Tories town apart by this, its the country.
Regardless of the result at least one side will be Highly Aggrieved by the actions of their fellow citizens. If we vote to remain we can expect a surge in sneering from the commentariat and establishment politicians only matched by a surge in support for UKIP. If the vote is to leave we can expect a surge of wailing from the commentariat and the sight of the Tories and possibly Labour falling apart.
An interesting header, but a flawed one. The EZ does not cause population movements
The substantial increase in Portuguese, Spanish, Italians and Greeks in London is not because they like the climate.
The young Greek couple I met in Muswell Hill just a short while ago didn't arrive here because they thought working in a coffee shop was the best way to make use of their degrees.
Immigration fantasists? Deniers? I don't know which is more apt.
The rich in Greece country did not pay taxes (still don't), a succession of governments lied about the public finances. That is what buggered the Greek economy.
Maybe so but the rich in Greece are not the ones working in our cafes. It is the victims of the incompetence of their ruling class. As you repeatedly point out Southam it is always so.
I completely agree. And leaving the EU will not change that. As you observe, it will also make no difference to immigration levels for the foreseeable future, if at all.
No, no, we are going to have a horrendous recession and all of the businesses and immigrants are going to abandon ship along with half the indigenous crew, haven't you got the script?
I think it's more likely we do semi-permanent damage to our economy, that the UK suffers substantial harm to its reputation and that none of the promises Leave has made about higher wages, more jobs, cheaper housing and more public spending come to pass. I see it is an act of pointless self harm made on the back of false promises and lies from a part of the establishment that sees an opportunity for itself and has a sepia-tinted view of the UK. I think a lot of ordinary people - who have very reasonably bought the message, for any number of reasons - are not only going to be very disappointed, but also materially harmed. Let's hope I'm wrong and you're right.
A combination of the welfare state and the highest minimum wage in Europe - several countries still don't have one - will attract increasing numbers, especially with more countries waiting at the gate.
Where else in Europe can you manage to get £20k-£40k tax free from the government for your partner and children by undertaking 16 hours unskilled labour?
The EU certainly did not pay enough attention to the need for social policy convergence prior to admitting new members and that is causing migration.
Agree - but in my view Britain should change it's welfare policy in that case - it's not The EU's fault that we have a largely non-contributory system. In Spain it is simple - you want benefits you have to contribute first.
I agree in principle.
The problem in practice is that young British people in particular would fall foul of those rules if it were straightforward NI contributions. Some kind of workaround to create credits would be necessary at a minimum.
In honour of the referendum I thought I'd share what our new flag will look like in the event of a remain vote
I still think remain will win but as I keep saying to settle this once and for all whoever wins needs to win with a good majority. None of this knife edge stuff as it will just fester and cause resentment.
If remain win as I think it will I can though foresee a time in the not so distant future where the Queen who gives Royal ascent to our laws no longer does so. By a simple wave of the hand the EU will require and demand only EU "elected" government bodies can do so in regard to any legislation originating in the EU. We will become a federal state by default. The monarchy will be sidelined which to some may be a good thing I suppose. legislation will then be decided entirely in Brussels ( or Strasbourg if the month is an odd number) simply circumventing the Royal ascent process. We probably won't notice it happening.
As regards a flag well it's on most of our official documents and public buildings already. The EU are almost there in terms of a"United States of Europe" . I suppose one advantage is that there can then only be one unelected president rather than the present three. Wouldn't put it pass them to keep the three but one certainly whether one or more that person will never ever be British. We will also never ever win Eurovision again. That's been the case though for years though.
A combination of the welfare state and the highest minimum wage in Europe - several countries still don't have one - will attract increasing numbers, especially with more countries waiting at the gate.
Where else in Europe can you manage to get £20k-£40k tax free from the government for your partner and children by undertaking 16 hours unskilled labour?
The EU certainly did not pay enough attention to the need for social policy convergence prior to admitting new members and that is causing migration.
Agree - but in my view Britain should change it's welfare policy in that case - it's not The EU's fault that we have a largely non-contributory system. In Spain it is simple - you want benefits you have to contribute first.
Better is the German system where you get more benefits if you have made more insurance contributions but there is still a basic minimum for all
I noticed an interesting denial by Number 10 yesterday. When Steve Hilton stated that Dave was told his figure was not possible, No 10 said "That is wrong."
I checked their quote. Number 10 were saying that in the three month period when Cameron was told, the immigration figures had fallen a little. Of course, they went back up in the next three month period. So their denial was really a non-denial. Now, is that a lie? Slippery things, denials when politicians are involved.
I would say that was more of a lie than the £350 million figure, which was the truth but not the whole truth.
No
Steve Hilton said that Cameron had been explicitly told his figure was not achievable, and No 10 have explicitly denied that claim. They say no official told the PM his figure was not achievable.
It was an explicit denial of his claim, not a non-denial
In addition they said immigration was falling at the time Hilton referred to.
Did they say "no official"?
That would probably cover a SPAD but not a political adviser paid by the party.
My conclusion is that Cameron was told by the CS and decided to ignore it because he didn't like it. "No ifs, no buts," is a much better soundbite than "We'll do a few airy-fairy things and hope for the best." Politics at its best, and there will be no comeback because he's PM anyway.
Some will believe it, and that's all that matters.
I think Cameron is a lying toe-rag but so are most of them. I'm getting all Mr G-ish. Where's my turnips?
Saw bits and pieces of the debate. Ruth Davidson got booed and laughed at when she claimed we make the EU work for us, although, to be honest, I'm not sure any of the parts I saw would alter votes.
An interesting header, but a flawed one. The EZ does not cause population movements
The substantial increase in Portuguese, Spanish, Italians and Greeks in London is not because they like the climate.
The young Greek couple I met in Muswell Hill just a short while ago didn't arrive here because they thought working in a coffee shop was the best way to make use of their degrees.
Immigration fantasists? Deniers? I don't know which is more apt.
The rich in Greece country did not pay taxes (still don't), a succession of governments lied about the public finances. That is what buggered the Greek economy.
Maybe so but the rich in Greece are not the ones working in our cafes. It is the victims of the incompetence of their ruling class. As you repeatedly point out Southam it is always so.
I completely agree. And leaving the EU will not change that. As you observe, it will also make no difference to immigration levels for the foreseeable future, if at all.
No, no, we are going to have a horrendous recession and all of the businesses and immigrants are going to abandon ship along with half the indigenous crew, haven't you got the script?
I think it's more likely we do semi-permanent damage to our economy, that the UK suffers substantial harm to its reputation and that none of the promises Leave has made about higher wages, more jobs, cheaper housing and more public spending come to pass. I see it is an act of pointless self harm made on the back of false promises and lies from a part of the establishment that sees an opportunity for itself and has a sepia-tinted view of the UK. I think a lot of ordinary people - who have very reasonably bought the message, for any number of reasons - are not only going to be very disappointed, but also materially harmed. Let's hope I'm wrong and you're right.
Would you prefer that or a country with 90-100 million people in it....
If Brexit will severely damaged the economy in the short term won't that reduce immigration, as there will be fewer vacancies?
Remains scare stories don't stack up - like this one - as they all counteract against each other
Deja vu all over again, Charles.
If we Leave the EU, the country will enter into an unprecedented period of turmoil which will affect economic growth.
It's not difficult stuff.
Indeed. The Brexit negotiations will be Suez on Steroids. We'll be up against the US AND Franco/German deep states. We'll survive of course but we'll get a slow and crap deal to deter other potential trouble makers. They'll do everything to prevent contagion.
Nothing really. Responded about what the exemption from ever closer union meant.
I had wondered if he would imply that post-Remain he could do something on immigration.
All he said was that the process of negotiation of free movement would continue (of course he can't say anything more, but you know Dave).
Also echoing the pre-GE line of getting straight back to work on Friday with a Remain vote. Stability and continuity. Expect to hear more of that today.
They are driven even more by social class which is good news for Remain as the middle-class vote
Nothing is simple about this is it?
No it is a question of who votes more, the middle-class or the old or who votes less, the young or the working class and unemployed
Remain are hoping that working class people in safe Labour seats with normally low turnouts who dont normally vote as their seat is a foregone conclusion are too thick and lazy to work out that in a referendum this dosent apply.
Having heard reports of council estates festooned with so many st george flags and brexit posters that they look like the DUPs North Belfast heartland on July 12th , I doubt it is much of a straw to clutch.
A combination of the welfare state and the highest minimum wage in Europe - several countries still don't have one - will attract increasing numbers, especially with more countries waiting at the gate.
Where else in Europe can you manage to get £20k-£40k tax free from the government for your partner and children by undertaking 16 hours unskilled labour?
The EU certainly did not pay enough attention to the need for social policy convergence prior to admitting new members and that is causing migration.
Agree - but in my view Britain should change it's welfare policy in that case - it's not The EU's fault that we have a largely non-contributory system. In Spain it is simple - you want benefits you have to contribute first.
I agree in principle.
The problem in practice is that young British people in particular would fall foul of those rules if it were straightforward NI contributions. Some kind of workaround to create credits would be necessary at a minimum.
That would be a good position for Remain to take - eliminate the NHS and move to a direct contributory position to equalise our position in Europe.
According to ITV, Jo Cox's birthday is going to be honoured worldwide on Wednesday.
Is there no stopping these people? Maybe Remain tellers in polling stations can wear special armbands and sad faces? And who would want to vote Leave if it meant spitting on the memory of a pretty MP whom before she got murdered they'd never heard of?
Do you know what? I wondered why the monarch hadn't got involved in the honouring of Jo Cox. My first thought was that she hadn't, because the general rule is that she is not seen to involve herself in House of Commons or other parliamentary stuff. Now it seems more likely that she or her advisers chose not to get involved in what was (and is) basically a Remain fest. Because they support Leave.
Maybe Remain tellers can wear badges with pictures of Jo Cox on, "killed for what she believed in", and Leave ones can wear hats festooned with the front page of the Sun: "'Tell me why on earth anyone in their right mind would vote Remain', asks Her Glorious Majesty".
Is that the faint smell of a lack of dignity? Or is it vomit?
Don't know how anyone can claim this to be a free and fair election. But I guess it was to be expected.
The idea it hasn't been free and fair because you don't like how you the other side gave pitched their arguments is utterly farcical. If there are other reasons you don't think it free or fair you don't list them here, so I presume you feel the Cox stuff makes it unfair on its own, which is ridiculous.
Question...if Britain's membership of the EU has created an economy where there are more UK citizens in work than in the country's history...why is that bad?
If Brexit will severely damaged the economy in the short term won't that reduce immigration, as there will be fewer vacancies?
Remains scare stories don't stack up - like this one - as they all counteract against each other
Deja vu all over again, Charles.
If we Leave the EU, the country will enter into an unprecedented period of turmoil which will affect economic growth.
It's not difficult stuff.
Indeed. The Brexit negotiations will be Suez on Steroids. We'll be up against the US AND Franco/German deep states. We'll survive of course but we'll get a slow and crap deal to deter other potential trouble makers. They'll do everything to prevent contagion.
If only the Leavers would say that this is a price worth paying then at least the British public could decide. Instead we get "of course they'll still sell us BMWs."
Well happy day - we reach the last campaign day of this EU frenzy... Just a few more hours to endure... how many recent recruits to PB will we lose come Friday I wonder... normally it's a fair few.
I also am astonished that 'isam' didn't appear during this campaign - whatever happened to him? He was very profitable to have on..... or has he been reborn anew?
I thought he was banned for being naughty.
On that note, is Sean banned for good or just until he sobers up?
They are driven even more by social class which is good news for Remain as the middle-class vote
Nothing is simple about this is it?
No it is a question of who votes more, the middle-class or the old or who votes less, the young or the working class and unemployed
Remain are hoping that working class people in safe Labour seats with normally low turnouts who dont normally vote as their seat is a foregone conclusion are too thick and lazy to work out that in a referendum this dosent apply.
Having heard reports of council estates festooned with so many st george flags and brexit posters that they look like the DUPs North Belfast heartland , I doubt it is much of a straw to clutch.
Even though I'm voting "remain" this anecdote heartens me greatly
Too close to call is still my feeling. I just hope that the undecideds swing it for remain.
Very nervous...
It's not the undecideds you have to worry about, it's young people - will they get off their backsides and vote. They'll get no sympathy from me if they complain about facing the consequences of the votes of older people if their turnout is much lower.
They are driven even more by social class which is good news for Remain as the middle-class vote
Nothing is simple about this is it?
No it is a question of who votes more, the middle-class or the old or who votes less, the young or the working class and unemployed
Remain are hoping that working class people in safe Labour seats with normally low turnouts who dont normally vote as their seat is a foregone conclusion are too thick and lazy to work out that in a referendum this dosent apply.
Having heard reports of council estates festooned with so many st george flags and brexit posters that they look like the DUPs North Belfast heartland , I doubt it is much of a straw to clutch.
Leave are equally hoping that young people and students don't vote but more young people have registered to vote for this referendum than any previous election
This referendum debate has been the nastiest brutal hate fest I can remember as I approach 40. The idea that its all over on Friday is plain wrong - its not just the Tories town apart by this, its the country.
Regardless of the result at least one side will be Highly Aggrieved by the actions of their fellow citizens. If we vote to remain we can expect a surge in sneering from the commentariat and establishment politicians only matched by a surge in support for UKIP. If the vote is to leave we can expect a surge of wailing from the commentariat and the sight of the Tories and possibly Labour falling apart.
It is basically a culture war.
A culture war which cuts across, and in my view, could permanently alter, current political allegiances. On one side, those who most value tradition, sovereignty, and independence. On the other, those who most value internationalism, and the free movement of people and capital.
Friendships and family ties have been ruptured by it.
Question...if Britain's membership of the EU has created an economy where there are more UK citizens in work than in the country's history...why is that bad?
If you are being subsidized to work (as shown by the amount still paid in working tax credit and housing benefit to those in work) are you actually working?
Surely if people were actually earning what their actually received (rather than receiving some from government subsidizes) we wouldn't still have the structural deficit that Osbourne has so blatently failed to fixed.
Comments
I also am astonished that 'isam' didn't appear during this campaign - whatever happened to him? He was very profitable to have on..... or has he been reborn anew?
fault that we have a largely non-contributory system. In Spain it is simple - you want benefits you have to contribute first.
If it is VERY close then "remain's" victory is undeniably tainted.
I checked their quote. Number 10 were saying that in the three month period when Cameron was told, the immigration figures had fallen a little. Of course, they went back up in the next three month period. So their denial was really a non-denial. Now, is that a lie? Slippery things, denials when politicians are involved.
I would say that was more of a lie than the £350 million figure, which was the truth but not the whole truth.
Incidentally though I still expect Remain to win.
If Brexit will severely damaged the economy in the short term won't that reduce immigration, as there will be fewer vacancies?
Not smart politics.
Steve Hilton said that Cameron had been explicitly told his figure was not achievable, and No 10 have explicitly denied that claim. They say no official told the PM his figure was not achievable.
It was an explicit denial of his claim, not a non-denial
In addition they said immigration was falling at the time Hilton referred to.
There have been substantial movements from all over the Med as well. Spanish and Italians are regularly in the top 4 EU migration nations to the UK. That often gets lost in conversations that usually centre on Romanians. The following data from the London Assembly illustrates;
Greeks in London
2004: 15,000
2010: 16,000
2014: 29,000
Italians in London
2004: 49,000
2010: 45,000
2014: 97,000
Only the lickspittles believe Cameron now, he's totally trashed, finished regardless. And what makes that even more entertaining is he did it all by himself with no help from anybody else.
The fall in the £ might help my employer with non EU exports (Which is the bulk of our book right now) as we often quote in £ and $ so that will be a positive. Overall I'd expect the £ weakening and the loss of contracts/fall in market cap of FTSE to be slightly net negative - but I( can't see it affecting migration for a fair while...
It boils down to retaining our right to kick the buggers out. The idea of perpetual politicians - waking up to them day after day, no end in sight, no end even possible - that is at the heart of this.
#Brexit preferences are driven by age, whichever party voters supported at GE (Except UKIP) https://t.co/afUd1744iK https://t.co/NKerYg5Z8R
On the other side Boris was his usual avuncular self and the two ladies were very eloquent, no need for pointy fingers and shouting like the Remainers.
I cannot see how anyone after watching that would want to trust or vote for the Remain side, they came across a as shifty , do as I tell you or else you thickos , bunch.
"It was an explicit denial of his claim, not a non-denial."
So someone is telling large porkies. Yet no one is interested in investigating. Now why do you think that is? I would say this is very serious and needs settling. Either the PM's current spokesman or his previous chief advisor are fantasists.
I can guarantee that Cameron will NOT order an enquiry.
You will believe Cameron, I have serious doubts. What relevance does "In addition they said immigration was falling at the time Hilton referred to." have? He was either told or he wasn't.
Is this the black swan?
On a slight side note, I only just found out that today is Jo Cox birthday. Conspiracy nuts will dine out on this for years.
Here he is..
But Mr Cameron has denied the claim and told ITV: "Well it's simply not right actually.
"When Steve Hilton left Downing Street in 2012 immigration, net immigration had actually fallen quite substantially. It had got down to just after he left about 154,000 so not far away from the ambition that I ..."
No mention of denying the claim. Could you provide a direct link, please?
And it was always an ambition only? Exactly as I predicted.
He did come over all Dacre last night. Before the mods got to him poor old Nick was on the end of a Double *******
Michael Gove compares experts warning against Brexit to Nazis who smeared Albert Einstein's work as he threatens to quit David Cameron's Cabinet
Regardless of the result at least one side will be Highly Aggrieved by the actions of their fellow citizens. If we vote to remain we can expect a surge in sneering from the commentariat and establishment politicians only matched by a surge in support for UKIP. If the vote is to leave we can expect a surge of wailing from the commentariat and the sight of the Tories and possibly Labour falling apart.
We all know that free movement is an EU red line.
My question (and he's not doing it yet) was whether he would do enough to sow enough doubt that he might be able to do something on it.
The problem in practice is that young British people in particular would fall foul of those rules if it were straightforward NI contributions. Some kind of workaround to create credits would be necessary at a minimum.
If remain win as I think it will I can though foresee a time in the not so distant future where the Queen who gives Royal ascent to our laws no longer does so. By a simple wave of the hand the EU will require and demand only EU "elected" government bodies can do so in regard to any legislation originating in the EU. We will become a federal state by default. The monarchy will be sidelined which to some may be a good thing I suppose. legislation will then be decided entirely in Brussels ( or Strasbourg if the month is an odd number) simply circumventing the Royal ascent process. We probably won't notice it happening.
As regards a flag well it's on most of our official documents and public buildings already. The EU are almost there in terms of a"United States of Europe" . I suppose one advantage is that there can then only be one unelected president rather than the present three. Wouldn't put it pass them to keep the three but one certainly whether one or more that person will never ever be British. We will also never ever win Eurovision again. That's been the case though for years though.
best in the business.
That would probably cover a SPAD but not a political adviser paid by the party.
Some will believe it, and that's all that matters.
I think Cameron is a lying toe-rag but so are most of them. I'm getting all Mr G-ish. Where's my turnips?
Saw bits and pieces of the debate. Ruth Davidson got booed and laughed at when she claimed we make the EU work for us, although, to be honest, I'm not sure any of the parts I saw would alter votes.
But then, I'm not utterly undecided.
If we Leave the EU, the country will enter into an unprecedented period of turmoil which will affect economic growth.
It's not difficult stuff.
I had wondered if he would imply that post-Remain he could do something on immigration.
All he said was that the process of negotiation of free movement would continue (of course he can't say anything more, but you know Dave).
Also echoing the pre-GE line of getting straight back to work on Friday with a Remain vote. Stability and continuity. Expect to hear more of that today.
Having heard reports of council estates festooned with so many st george flags and brexit posters that they look like the DUPs North Belfast heartland on July 12th , I doubt it is much of a straw to clutch.
Friendships and family ties have been ruptured by it.
Surely if people were actually earning what their actually received (rather than receiving some from government subsidizes) we wouldn't still have the structural deficit that Osbourne has so blatently failed to fixed.