I thought it was an OKish debate. Given the size of the audience it was bound to have a degree of drama that the others have lacked.
I thought the TUC lady and the Tory Minister were disapointing. Sadiq and Ruth Davidson made some good debating points as did Gisela who appeared the most considered if the least stylish debater. Boris was realatively poor in the debate proper.
However his summing up was in a totally different league to Ruth Davidson and the Remain camp should not have fielded her for this or written a much better script. And this has been Remain achilles heel throughout the campaign. It hasn't been just a Project Fear from the dreadful duo in Downing Street but the total lack of hope and idealism from the mainstream campaign.
I think Remain will win and that this is the best result. Whether they deserve to win is a different matter. In the final estimation perhaps they do in the sense that they have spent marginally less time in the gutter that Leave.
Will go down very well with nailed on remainers, and will drive turnout of leavers.
I doubt it
Anyone who isn't already clutching their pearls about 'Farage's little England' and voting Remain as a consequence isn't going to be convinced by the word 'Hate'.
Well done Lord Sugar - not that most people will see the debate or your comments about Stuart, but it means VoteLeave can counter any spin Remain try for tonight and tomorrow morning (before other events take over) by pointing to you as a distraction.
Lord Sugar has just proven David Cameron's maxim about Twitter
Go on, do tell... Got a link?
Twit. Really? Still twitter is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot.
I'm surprised that, particularly for higher profile users, people don't use an app that gives 5 minutes of thinking time between when you submit a twitter comment and when it actually gets posted. Then gives you a confirmation screen before the final go-ahead.
Okay, it'd be less dynamic and responsive - but would have saved an awful lot of blushes.
Whoever can be the first to market a breathalyser for a mobile phone will make a fortune!
Would it offend everyone if I said I thought that the debate was rather good?
I don't think anyone shone particularly, and neither side won. However both sides made some good points and convinced me of their individual conviction.
(Minor disaster for Farron though, but that's irrelevant in this context)
What did Mr Farron do? (I made a tea during the panel bit.)
Farron will take the Lib Dems into phone-box territory.
He's as much a leader as the Reverend Timothy Farthing...
Well done Lord Sugar - not that most people will see the debate or your comments about Stuart, but it means VoteLeave can counter any spin Remain try for tonight and tomorrow morning (before other events take over) by pointing to you as a distraction.
if they focus on sugar's twatter then that tells you just how well the actual event really went for their side doesn't it...
Osborne's over-borrowing is likely to exceed £200bn next month and to be approaching £240bn by the end of 2016.
Enjoy paying your share back.
While I think he's about to be sacked - either going down with a Leave win, or sacrificed to save Cameron after a Remain win - given it seems even many Tories don't want austerity anymore, it doesn't seem like his successor will fix that mess.
Whoever is chancellor in 2020 is going to argue the job is not yet done and labour cannot be trusted on the economy. After having 10 years to handle what they identified as the main goal and failing.
Even assuming there isn't a recession or period of minimal growth (it doesn't even need a recession for borrowing to start increasing again) or international crisis or election giveaway (fat chance there) the borrowing targets are going to be missed again.
And there's no chance of any new cuts being implemented with the state of the Conservative party.
I thought it was an OKish debate. Given the size of the audience it was bound to have a degree of drama that the others have lacked.
I thought the TUC lady and the Tory Minister were disapointing. Sadiq and Ruth Davidson made some good debating points as did Gisela who appeared the most considered if the least stylish debater. Boris was realatively poor in the debate proper.
However his summing up was in a totally different league to Ruth Davidson and the Remain camp should not have fielded her for this or written a much better script. And this has been Remain achilles heel throughout the campaign. It hasn't been just a Project Fear from the dreadful duo in Downing Street but the total lack of hope and idealism from the mainstream campaign.
I think Remain will win and that this is the best result. Whether they deserve to win is a different matter. In the final estimation perhaps they do in the sense that they have spent marginally less time in the gutter that Leave.
Your traditional Scottish preference for Europeans over the hated English is blinding you to the fact that this is the same establishment that you all railed against in the Indyref.
Why did Gisela Stuart not play a bigger role under New Labour? I hadn't realised that she married Derek Scott (sadly now deceased), Blair's economic adviser who warned him against the Euro but also ironically clashed with Gordon Brown.
As I said on the last thread I just feel at last that this is edging Leave's way. I don't see tonight being enough to stop that. It was a score and bloody draw at best.
Both sides got their messages over to their own supporters and I think both sides were more focussed on getting their supporters out than winning over the still undecided (and probably rightly so).
This is all about turnout. Do Remainers care for the "not perfect" EU described by Ruth or are they sufficiently scared about their investments and incomes to come out? Do Leavers believe that a better future is possible if the fearmongers are faced down?
Tough call but I am sticking with my earlier decision. Leave to win 52:48.
Vote Leave have been dreadful. 'Take Control' I still think is an awful slogan.
Really? I've been quite down on VoteLeave myself, and I think it's a good slogan - what's your particular issue with it, and do you have a preference for an alternative, I would be interested.
As I said on the last thread I just feel at last that this is edging Leave's way. I don't see tonight being enough to stop that. It was a score and bloody draw at best.
Both sides got their messages over to their own supporters and I think both sides were more focussed on getting their supporters out than winning over the still undecided (and probably rightly so).
This is all about turnout. Do Remainers care for the "not perfect" EU described by Ruth or are they sufficiently scared about their investments and incomes to come out? Do Leavers believe that a better future is possible if the fearmongers are faced down?
Tough call but I am sticking with my earlier decision. Leave to win 52:48.
BUT if by some miracle Leave wins, it will be because of the people. Because they just decided enough was enough. And that shit though Leave are, they preferred a rag tag mob with their best interests at heart to a self-interested malevolent political class.
Slight correction there - the rag tag mob are also members of the self-interested malevolent political class. There are many things we may gain from a Leave vote, getting away from that will not be one of them. At least, if it ever happens, it won't be as a consequence of Leave, but other factors.
As I said on the last thread I just feel at last that this is edging Leave's way. I don't see tonight being enough to stop that. It was a score and bloody draw at best.
Both sides got their messages over to their own supporters and I think both sides were more focussed on getting their supporters out than winning over the still undecided (and probably rightly so).
This is all about turnout. Do Remainers care for the "not perfect" EU described by Ruth or are they sufficiently scared about their investments and incomes to come out? Do Leavers believe that a better future is possible if the fearmongers are faced down?
Tough call but I am sticking with my earlier decision. Leave to win 52:48.
I think it will be very close but at least here in London things look a bit better. Recent canvassing returns are significantly better I had previously reported on the site. Still very knife-edge though - the betting value is with Leave. However I am hopeful we can dodge a bullet and vote remain.
I agree it will be close. But are Labour supporters really going to turn out in sufficient numbers to save David Cameron? I mean really? Politics has got very strange but that strange?
Would it offend everyone if I said I thought that the debate was rather good?
I don't think anyone shone particularly, and neither side won. However both sides made some good points and convinced me of their individual conviction.
(Minor disaster for Farron though, but that's irrelevant in this context)
What did Mr Farron do? (I made a tea during the panel bit.)
So did he. Looked like a token panelist.
He said something. At the time I thought it was good, but now I can't remember.
As I said on the last thread I just feel at last that this is edging Leave's way. I don't see tonight being enough to stop that. It was a score and bloody draw at best.
Both sides got their messages over to their own supporters and I think both sides were more focussed on getting their supporters out than winning over the still undecided (and probably rightly so).
This is all about turnout. Do Remainers care for the "not perfect" EU described by Ruth or are they sufficiently scared about their investments and incomes to come out? Do Leavers believe that a better future is possible if the fearmongers are faced down?
Tough call but I am sticking with my earlier decision. Leave to win 52:48.
As I remember your previous campaign reports and predictions have been pretty good.
I think we've established Betfair will only move if at 5am on Friday morning LEAVE have won.
No- TSE has already given us the heads up that there is some private polling being commissioned by the banks so doubtless we will see some big moves on betfair mid afternoon on Thursday.
Chances are the polls will continue to show what they have been doing - Too close to call.
As I said on the last thread I just feel at last that this is edging Leave's way. I don't see tonight being enough to stop that. It was a score and bloody draw at best.
Both sides got their messages over to their own supporters and I think both sides were more focussed on getting their supporters out than winning over the still undecided (and probably rightly so).
This is all about turnout. Do Remainers care for the "not perfect" EU described by Ruth or are they sufficiently scared about their investments and incomes to come out? Do Leavers believe that a better future is possible if the fearmongers are faced down?
Tough call but I am sticking with my earlier decision. Leave to win 52:48.
I think it will be very close but at least here in London things look a bit better. Recent canvassing returns are significantly better than I had previously reported on the site. Still very knife-edge though - the betting value is with Leave. However I am hopeful we can dodge a bullet and vote remain.
Ay?? I thought London was going to be overwhelmingly remain, 70-30? It's already been written into the narrative.
Well done Lord Sugar - not that most people will see the debate or your comments about Stuart, but it means VoteLeave can counter any spin Remain try for tonight and tomorrow morning (before other events take over) by pointing to you as a distraction.
if they focus on sugar's twatter then that tells you just how well the actual event really went for their side doesn't it...
Not really - just that no side misses an opportunity to score into an open net like that.
Osborne's over-borrowing is likely to exceed £200bn next month and to be approaching £240bn by the end of 2016.
Enjoy paying your share back.
While I think he's about to be sacked - either going down with a Leave win, or sacrificed to save Cameron after a Remain win - given it seems even many Tories don't want austerity anymore, it doesn't seem like his successor will fix that mess.
Whoever is chancellor in 2020 is going to argue the job is not yet done and labour cannot be trusted on the economy. After having 10 years to handle what they identified as the main goal and failing.
Even assuming there isn't a recession or period of minimal growth (it doesn't even need a recession for borrowing to start increasing again) or international crisis or election giveaway (fat chance there) the borrowing targets are going to be missed again.
And there's no chance of any new cuts being implemented with the state of the Conservative party.
Precisely. So if one cares about the deficit, no point voting Tory.
Osborne's over-borrowing is likely to exceed £200bn next month and to be approaching £240bn by the end of 2016.
Enjoy paying your share back.
While I think he's about to be sacked - either going down with a Leave win, or sacrificed to save Cameron after a Remain win - given it seems even many Tories don't want austerity anymore, it doesn't seem like his successor will fix that mess.
Whoever is chancellor in 2020 is going to argue the job is not yet done and labour cannot be trusted on the economy. After having 10 years to handle what they identified as the main goal and failing.
Even assuming there isn't a recession or period of minimal growth (it doesn't even need a recession for borrowing to start increasing again) or international crisis or election giveaway (fat chance there) the borrowing targets are going to be missed again.
And there's no chance of any new cuts being implemented with the state of the Conservative party.
They've been putting things off since 2008. That's not OK. Someone has to do it.
Why did Gisela Stuart not play a bigger role under New Labour? I hadn't realised that she married Derek Scott (sadly now deceased), Blair's economic adviser who warned him against the Euro but also ironically clashed with Gordon Brown.
Osborne's over-borrowing is likely to exceed £200bn next month and to be approaching £240bn by the end of 2016.
Enjoy paying your share back.
While I think he's about to be sacked - either going down with a Leave win, or sacrificed to save Cameron after a Remain win - given it seems even many Tories don't want austerity anymore, it doesn't seem like his successor will fix that mess.
Whoever is chancellor in 2020 is going to argue the job is not yet done and labour cannot be trusted on the economy. After having 10 years to handle what they identified as the main goal and failing.
Even assuming there isn't a recession or period of minimal growth (it doesn't even need a recession for borrowing to start increasing again) or international crisis or election giveaway (fat chance there) the borrowing targets are going to be missed again.
And there's no chance of any new cuts being implemented with the state of the Conservative party.
Remember also that osborne's last budget effectively brought a lot of spending forward and left massive unspecified cuts for 2019 in order to balance the pre-election books. That is a huge poisoned chalice for anyone picking up his job in the run up to the next GE
@DPJHodges: Thought final speeches framed problem for Leave. Boris rallying cry will inspire Brexit supporters. But Davidson will have reached waverers.
It won't have reached more than a few waverers, unless it gets significant airtime tomorrow.
Well done Lord Sugar - not that most people will see the debate or your comments about Stuart, but it means VoteLeave can counter any spin Remain try for tonight and tomorrow morning (before other events take over) by pointing to you as a distraction.
if they focus on sugar's twatter then that tells you just how well the actual event really went for their side doesn't it...
Not really - just that no side misses an opportunity to score into an open net like that.
Osborne's over-borrowing is likely to exceed £200bn next month and to be approaching £240bn by the end of 2016.
Enjoy paying your share back.
While I think he's about to be sacked - either going down with a Leave win, or sacrificed to save Cameron after a Remain win - given it seems even many Tories don't want austerity anymore, it doesn't seem like his successor will fix that mess.
Whoever is chancellor in 2020 is going to argue the job is not yet done and labour cannot be trusted on the economy. After having 10 years to handle what they identified as the main goal and failing.
Even assuming there isn't a recession or period of minimal growth (it doesn't even need a recession for borrowing to start increasing again) or international crisis or election giveaway (fat chance there) the borrowing targets are going to be missed again.
And there's no chance of any new cuts being implemented with the state of the Conservative party.
Precisely. So if one cares about the deficit, no point voting Tory.
Not a gamechanger. We all heard our own side more than the other one. On that basis, good for Leave.
Some muppet called the referendum during the footie... Who knows who was watching.
Some of us managed to watch both matches, catch the end of the cricket, listen to the debate, post here, as well as make a night cap for my wife (an hour ahead), take the dog for a quick waz, drink a couple of glasses of chianti, eat some nuts, re-charge a couple of gadgets, put the laundry out and put a couple of punts on betfair....
And they said men couldn't multi task
A wonderful effort. You make a man proud.
If I did that I may well report it in the same way. However in the morning I'd work out that I had in fact slept through both matches, been woken up by the adverts in the cricket, dozed through the debate, posted something daft here, poured orange juice instead of milk into the hot chocolate, taken the cat out for a walk, drunk a couple of bottles of wine I really meant to save, ate some dog-chews, plugged my iphone into the mains, put the laundry in the fridge, and thrown some money away on betfair...
If none of this is true of Mr Tyson then indeed, salutes all round
@gabyhinsliff: FWIW, the Davidson line that stuck in my head was that your decision in this Euref could (if you get it wrong) cost someone else their job
@gabyhinsliff: It won't convince a single dedicated Leaver but wonder if it might not play with a certain kind of wavering voter more than you think
@RobDotHutton: Ruth Davidson was at 44-1 for next Tory leader on Betfair 90 minutes ago. 26-1 now.
She won't be *next* Tory leader, given that she isn't an MP and is unlikely to become one before Cameron resigns.
I agree it won't happen (not least because the job is not done in Scotland for her, and it would be spun as Holyrood being for second stringers as far as unionists think), but are the Tory rules explicit leader must be an MP? Or could she win, Mundell steps down and she wins his seat? (I know they came close in one other seat, but I presume that's the only one she could win)
An interesting question. The nomination and elimination stages are conducted by MPs, with the Chairman of the '22 acting as returning officer. I can't see anything that says the nominee must be an MP, although they must be proposed and seconded by two MPs. So yes, your scenario is possible, she would then have to either be elevated to the Peerage or stand in a by-election. Also I believe that election to be an MP disqualifies you from being an MSP, so she would have to stand down from Holyrood to sit in Westminster. Not going to happen though. Maybe next time. http://conservativehome.blogs.com/files/snpc-01366-2-1.pdf
If it doesn't have to be an MP then Mr Hannan must be the horse to back.
The Scottish debate was in a different league to this miserable affair in quality of argument and level of performance. Also the legacy was electrifying for the politics of Scotland. Nobody thinks the legacy of this debate - regardless of result - will be anything other than negative.
Seems with polls too close to call, and no way to know if they are even right, the only thing to do is make gut guesses on the fundamentals. Will people fear the shock of Leave enough? Will they dislike the EU and want to kick Cameron enough? Will young people actually bother to vote?
The latter is the most critical I think. Remain have no chance if they don't turn out, and do so well.
5 minutes ago Misstattooed Currently the mirror doesn't seem to be reflecting their readers views! She annoyed me more than all the rest. I'll be voting to leave. ReplyShare01
7 minutes ago MarieWeyman Had to switch off because of her inane ramblings. Ridiculous woman. ReplyShare
Osborne's over-borrowing is likely to exceed £200bn next month and to be approaching £240bn by the end of 2016.
Enjoy paying your share back.
While I think he's about to be sacked - either going down with a Leave win, or sacrificed to save Cameron after a Remain win - given it seems even many Tories don't want austerity anymore, it doesn't seem like his successor will fix that mess.
Whoever is chancellor in 2020 is going to argue the job is not yet done and labour cannot be trusted on the economy. After having 10 years to handle what they identified as the main goal and failing.
Even assuming there isn't a recession or period of minimal growth (it doesn't even need a recession for borrowing to start increasing again) or international crisis or election giveaway (fat chance there) the borrowing targets are going to be missed again.
And there's no chance of any new cuts being implemented with the state of the Conservative party.
Remember also that osborne's last budget effectively brought a lot of spending forward and left massive unspecified cuts for 2019 in order to balance the pre-election books. That is a huge poisoned chalice for anyone picking up his job in the run up to the next GE
Indeed.
And then there was the disability benefits Uturn prompted by IDS which ripped yet another hole in the forecast.
Not a gamechanger. We all heard our own side more than the other one. On that basis, good for Leave.
Some muppet called the referendum during the footie... Who knows who was watching.
Some of us managed to watch both matches, catch the end of the cricket, listen to the debate, post here, as well as make a night cap for my wife (an hour ahead), take the dog for a quick waz, drink a couple of glasses of chianti, eat some nuts, re-charge a couple of gadgets, put the laundry out and put a couple of punts on betfair....
And they said men couldn't multi task
A wonderful effort. You make a man proud.
If I did that I may well report it in the same way. However in the morning I'd work out that I had in fact slept through both matches, been woken up by the adverts in the cricket, dozed through the debate, posted something daft here, poured orange juice instead of milk into the hot chocolate, taken the cat out for a walk, drunk a couple of bottles of wine I really meant to save, ate some dog-chews, plugged my iphone into the mains, put the laundry in the fridge, and thrown some money away on betfair...
If none of this is true of Mr Tyson then indeed, salutes all round
No, we didn't believe (or take sufficient account of) Peter Shore et al.
My memory was that the great and the good were lined up on the reamain side whilst on the leave side was Peter Shore, Benn, Powell and others who the great and the good assured us were either nutters or just plain wrong. The majority believed the great and the good and by a big margin.
Of course it turned out that the great and the good were lying through their teeth and it was the nutters who had it correct.
This time Cameron et al are trying the same play book but the world has turned and we are a much less deferential society with access to many more sources of information not to mention some people are jolly cross about how their society has been changed without their consent or even their being asked. On top of which there are those of us who are not going to be fooled twice.
Then on top of all that we have Cameron not that long ago saying that of course the Uk would be fine outside of the EU, he'd even consider leading us there himself if he didn't get the renegotiation deal he wanted. Now having failed to get the deal he said he wanted he says the sky will fall in if we vote to leave. He seems to think the electorate are idiots with the memory of goldfish.
All in all I think, and have thought from the start, that Cameron was trying to pull a 1975 referendum on us.
Osborne's over-borrowing is likely to exceed £200bn next month and to be approaching £240bn by the end of 2016.
Enjoy paying your share back.
While I think he's about to be sacked - either going down with a Leave win, or sacrificed to save Cameron after a Remain win - given it seems even many Tories don't want austerity anymore, it doesn't seem like his successor will fix that mess.
Whoever is chancellor in 2020 is going to argue the job is not yet done and labour cannot be trusted on the economy. After having 10 years to handle what they identified as the main goal and failing.
Even assuming there isn't a recession or period of minimal growth (it doesn't even need a recession for borrowing to start increasing again) or international crisis or election giveaway (fat chance there) the borrowing targets are going to be missed again.
And there's no chance of any new cuts being implemented with the state of the Conservative party.
Remember also that osborne's last budget effectively brought a lot of spending forward and left massive unspecified cuts for 2019 in order to balance the pre-election books. That is a huge poisoned chalice for anyone picking up his job in the run up to the next GE
Once again he was forced to do that because the growth figures were so dismal he could not afford to take another £50bn of spending out of the economy. We are trapped with the consequences of 2001-8 and blaming Osborne is frankly childish.
Then it started to get a bit bumpier, because the thing about being an alternative government is that it has to have policies on everything. That means it has to have a policy on immigration. “Australian-style points system,” said Johnson, happily. Khan quickly pointed out that Australia has twice as much immigration as we have for a country its size.
Later on, because the debate bounced from subject to subject and back again with all the discipline of an unfamiliar pinball machine, the combatants returned to the subject of immigration, and O’Grady demanded to know if the Leave alternative government was promising to reduce immigration. Stuart said the Leavers were not an alternative government and that it was up to whoever was the government to decide how much immigration we had, but if we left it would be able to do so. “It’s a con,” said O’Grady.
I'm going to be bold. Leave win by 4% (52-48) as my final prediction. Boris' finish will be a rallying call for Leave, while some young'uns won't vote.
5 minutes ago Misstattooed Currently the mirror doesn't seem to be reflecting their readers views! She annoyed me more than all the rest. I'll be voting to leave. ReplyShare01
7 minutes ago MarieWeyman Had to switch off because of her inane ramblings. Ridiculous woman. ReplyShare
Aren't Italy better off chucking their match than trying to win it ?
It would have no effect.
Italy will top their group because they beat Belgium in their match.
Italy should play a second XI against Ireland as whatever the result they win the group (unfortunately for them). No point picking up cards and injuries to their first team.
As I said on the last thread I just feel at last that this is edging Leave's way. I don't see tonight being enough to stop that. It was a score and bloody draw at best.
Both sides got their messages over to their own supporters and I think both sides were more focussed on getting their supporters out than winning over the still undecided (and probably rightly so).
This is all about turnout. Do Remainers care for the "not perfect" EU described by Ruth or are they sufficiently scared about their investments and incomes to come out? Do Leavers believe that a better future is possible if the fearmongers are faced down?
Tough call but I am sticking with my earlier decision. Leave to win 52:48.
As I remember your previous campaign reports and predictions have been pretty good.
Well I have never won a prize on PB or even been particularly close. I got Sindy right but I was way more involved in that and had access to inside info. This is nothing more than my gut and it would be a brave man or woman that risked their hard earned on that!
The Scottish debate was in a different league to this miserable affair in quality of argument and level of performance. Also the legacy was electrifying for the politics of Scotland. Nobody thinks the legacy of this debate - regardless of result - will be anything other than negative.
I rather expect that the fallout from the UK referendum might indeed prove 'electrifying' for a number of British politicians - and potentially even political parties - but perhaps not in quite the precise sense you were imagining?
I am baffled by this 'get rid of elites' pitch that is implied. We won't be beholden to unelected European bureaucrats, and that's great, but the same people will make up our political class
@RobDotHutton: Ruth Davidson was at 44-1 for next Tory leader on Betfair 90 minutes ago. 26-1 now.
She won't be *next* Tory leader, given that she isn't an MP and is unlikely to become one before Cameron resigns.
I agree it won't happen (not least because the job is not done in Scotland for her, and it would be spun as Holyrood being for second stringers as far as unionists think), but are the Tory rules explicit leader must be an MP? Or could she win, Mundell steps down and she wins his seat? (I know they came close in one other seat, but I presume that's the only one she could win)
An interesting question. The nomination and elimination stages are conducted by MPs, with the Chairman of the '22 acting as returning officer. I can't see anything that says the nominee must be an MP, although they must be proposed and seconded by two MPs. So yes, your scenario is possible, she would then have to either be elevated to the Peerage or stand in a by-election. Also I believe that election to be an MP disqualifies you from being an MSP, so she would have to stand down from Holyrood to sit in Westminster. Not going to happen though. Maybe next time. http://conservativehome.blogs.com/files/snpc-01366-2-1.pdf
If it doesn't have to be an MP then Mr Hannan must be the horse to back.
He's 110 on Betfair right now, but I can't see that either. He's a rebel backbench MEP, with no Parliamentary or Ministerial experience. Remember that unless it happens in 2020 the next Tory leader will become PM. I'm backing May, with a covering bet on Gove and large money laying Osborne and Johnson from last year when they were both almost evens.
Osborne's over-borrowing is likely to exceed £200bn next month and to be approaching £240bn by the end of 2016.
Enjoy paying your share back.
While I think he's about to be sacked - either going down with a Leave win, or sacrificed to save Cameron after a Remain win - given it seems even many Tories don't want austerity anymore, it doesn't seem like his successor will fix that mess.
Whoever is chancellor in 2020 is going to argue the job is not yet done and labour cannot be trusted on the economy. After having 10 years to handle what they identified as the main goal and failing.
Even assuming there isn't a recession or period of minimal growth (it doesn't even need a recession for borrowing to start increasing again) or international crisis or election giveaway (fat chance there) the borrowing targets are going to be missed again.
And there's no chance of any new cuts being implemented with the state of the Conservative party.
Remember also that osborne's last budget effectively brought a lot of spending forward and left massive unspecified cuts for 2019 in order to balance the pre-election books. That is a huge poisoned chalice for anyone picking up his job in the run up to the next GE
Once again he was forced to do that because the growth figures were so dismal he could not afford to take another £50bn of spending out of the economy. We are trapped with the consequences of 2001-8 and blaming Osborne is frankly childish.
Osborne didn't see anything wrong with 2001-2008 and has tried to recreate it with the likes of triple-lock pensions and HTB.
Is it true that almost 50% of immigrants to the UK are from outside of the EU?
It's more than 50% on the latest figures
and yet strangely we have not been able to reduce this figure to 10s of 1000s despite HAVING COMPLETE CONTROL.
I thought we were prevented from scouring the World for highly skilled talent because we are stuck with all the duffers from the EU who get here for free? Or something.
5 minutes ago Misstattooed Currently the mirror doesn't seem to be reflecting their readers views! She annoyed me more than all the rest. I'll be voting to leave. ReplyShare01
7 minutes ago MarieWeyman Had to switch off because of her inane ramblings. Ridiculous woman. ReplyShare
Seriously....
Isn't there some sort of anecdote alarm that sounds in such cases? Is that what the fabled Widget of Sir Edmund does?
@MattHancockMP: Tonight we've learned Leave have: 1.No plan to reduce immigration 2.No plan on economy 3.No plan to give back £600,000 from exBNP member
5 minutes ago Misstattooed Currently the mirror doesn't seem to be reflecting their readers views! She annoyed me more than all the rest. I'll be voting to leave. ReplyShare01
7 minutes ago MarieWeyman Had to switch off because of her inane ramblings. Ridiculous woman. ReplyShare
Interesting that both comments finding Ruth Davidson annoying are from women. I didn't "get" her appeal in this debate, either and found her a big turn-off whenever she was speaking. Sadiq Khan was the best on the Remain team, as far as I'm concerned although he does have a bit of modern politician "blandness" about him.
I am baffled by this 'get rid of elites' pitch that is implied. We won't be beholden to unelected European bureaucrats, and that's great, but the same people will make up our political class
As I said on the last thread I just feel at last that this is edging Leave's way. I don't see tonight being enough to stop that. It was a score and bloody draw at best.
Both sides got their messages over to their own supporters and I think both sides were more focussed on getting their supporters out than winning over the still undecided (and probably rightly so).
This is all about turnout. Do Remainers care for the "not perfect" EU described by Ruth or are they sufficiently scared about their investments and incomes to come out? Do Leavers believe that a better future is possible if the fearmongers are faced down?
Tough call but I am sticking with my earlier decision. Leave to win 52:48.
Vote Leave have been dreadful. 'Take Control' I still think is an awful slogan.
Really? I've been quite down on VoteLeave myself, and I think it's a good slogan - what's your particular issue with it, and do you have a preference for an alternative, I would be interested.
As I said on the last thread I just feel at last that this is edging Leave's way. I don't see tonight being enough to stop that. It was a score and bloody draw at best.
Both sides got their messages over to their own supporters and I think both sides were more focussed on getting their supporters out than winning over the still undecided (and probably rightly so).
This is all about turnout. Do Remainers care for the "not perfect" EU described by Ruth or are they sufficiently scared about their investments and incomes to come out? Do Leavers believe that a better future is possible if the fearmongers are faced down?
Tough call but I am sticking with my earlier decision. Leave to win 52:48.
BUT if by some miracle Leave wins, it will be because of the people. Because they just decided enough was enough. And that shit though Leave are, they preferred a rag tag mob with their best interests at heart to a self-interested malevolent political class.
Slight correction there - the rag tag mob are also members of the self-interested malevolent political class. There are many things we may gain from a Leave vote, getting away from that will not be one of them. At least, if it ever happens, it won't be as a consequence of Leave, but other factors.
I think 'class' was the wrong choice of words. I think 'club' might be better. And it doesn't matter how well cut your suits are, or how much you have in the bank, when you go 'Leave', you're not in that club any more. As prominent Leavers have found.
@MattHancockMP: Tonight we've learned Leave have: 1.No plan to reduce immigration 2.No plan on economy 3.No plan to give back £600,000 from exBNP member
Is it true that almost 50% of immigrants to the UK are from outside of the EU?
It's more than 50% on the latest figures
and yet strangely we have not been able to reduce this figure to 10s of 1000s despite HAVING COMPLETE CONTROL.
I thought we were prevented from scouring the World for highly skilled talent because we are stuck with all the duffers from the EU who get here for free? Or something.
@MarkSenior had some stats 150,000 non EU immigrants, 5000 new non EU jobs or some such.
@MattHancockMP: Tonight we've learned Leave have: 1.No plan to reduce immigration 2.No plan on economy 3.No plan to give back £600,000 from exBNP member
Comments
Labour supporters bigging up Ruth Davidson.
Terrified Zoomers trying to pretend she wasn't all that great.
I thought the TUC lady and the Tory Minister were disapointing. Sadiq and Ruth Davidson made some good debating points as did Gisela who appeared the most considered if the least stylish debater. Boris was realatively poor in the debate proper.
However his summing up was in a totally different league to Ruth Davidson and the Remain camp should not have fielded her for this or written a much better script. And this has been Remain achilles heel throughout the campaign. It hasn't been just a Project Fear from the dreadful duo in Downing Street but the total lack of hope and idealism from the mainstream campaign.
I think Remain will win and that this is the best result. Whether they deserve to win is a different matter. In the final estimation perhaps they do in the sense that they have spent marginally less time in the gutter that Leave.
He's as much a leader as the Reverend Timothy Farthing...
Last 16: Italy v Spain
QF: Germany v Italy/Spain
QF: France v England
SF: Germany/Italy/Spain v France/England
Portugal unlikely to come 2nd so probably will go in other half.
And there's no chance of any new cuts being implemented with the state of the Conservative party.
And those that Vote Leave can tell themselves they are voting against Ruth.
Win-win
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ruth-davidson-leaves-rest-standing-8249980
If none of this is true of Mr Tyson then indeed, salutes all round
@gabyhinsliff: It won't convince a single dedicated Leaver but wonder if it might not play with a certain kind of wavering voter more than you think
The Scottish debate was in a different league to this miserable affair in quality of argument and level of performance. Also the legacy was electrifying for the politics of Scotland. Nobody thinks the legacy of this debate - regardless of result - will be anything other than negative.
https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/745319700654063616
The latter is the most critical I think. Remain have no chance if they don't turn out, and do so well.
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/excel_doc/0017/210905/European-Union-Referendum-Electorate.xlsx
Misstattooed
Currently the mirror doesn't seem to be reflecting their readers views! She annoyed me more than all the rest. I'll be voting to leave.
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7 minutes ago
MarieWeyman
Had to switch off because of her inane ramblings. Ridiculous woman.
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Wednesday 10pm: YouGov & ComRes
Thursday morning: Ipsos Mori
Thursday 10pm - YouGov recontact on the day, and a Populus same thing, though that might be for a private client.
And then there was the disability benefits Uturn prompted by IDS which ripped yet another hole in the forecast.
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics
Of course it turned out that the great and the good were lying through their teeth and it was the nutters who had it correct.
This time Cameron et al are trying the same play book but the world has turned and we are a much less deferential society with access to many more sources of information not to mention some people are jolly cross about how their society has been changed without their consent or even their being asked. On top of which there are those of us who are not going to be fooled twice.
Then on top of all that we have Cameron not that long ago saying that of course the Uk would be fine outside of the EU, he'd even consider leading us there himself if he didn't get the renegotiation deal he wanted. Now having failed to get the deal he said he wanted he says the sky will fall in if we vote to leave. He seems to think the electorate are idiots with the memory of goldfish.
All in all I think, and have thought from the start, that Cameron was trying to pull a 1975 referendum on us.
Italy will top their group because they beat Belgium in their match.
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/745370366919380997
Later on, because the debate bounced from subject to subject and back again with all the discipline of an unfamiliar pinball machine, the combatants returned to the subject of immigration, and O’Grady demanded to know if the Leave alternative government was promising to reduce immigration. Stuart said the Leavers were not an alternative government and that it was up to whoever was the government to decide how much immigration we had, but if we left it would be able to do so. “It’s a con,” said O’Grady.
Round three to Remain.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ruth-davidson-and-sadiq-khan-the-winners-of-tonights-bbc-debate-a7094366.html
Fifa goal difference
.@BorisJohnson: 'Stand up for democracy and #VoteLeave' #TakeControl #ProjectHope #bbcdebate
https://t.co/H3P6YNjae6
Italy will win even if they're not trying to.
I'm backing May, with a covering bet on Gove and large money laying Osborne and Johnson from last year when they were both almost evens.
1.No plan to reduce immigration
2.No plan on economy
3.No plan to give back £600,000 from exBNP member
Moggster for Lord Chancellor! Come on Dave...
I was starting to worry that Sunil was controlling all the papers, not just the Sun.