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  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,743
    This crowd is highly partisan. Far too much clapping and whooping going on.

    Guess it was always going to be.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    Well alright.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,202
    I have a feeling Frances is going to prove a bad choice. Her tone of voice is not working for me on TV.

    Gisella, meanwhile is fantastic as ever.

    PBTories for Gisella!
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276

    If leave win given the current odds and amount of money placed bookies make a profit net due to remain losses.

    If remain win ditto the other way round.

    Surely that is what drives the odds. Not the bookies guess as to what will happen on Thursday night?

    On a market like this there's probably an 8% over round. The bookies don't care. Betfair makes commission either way
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    Bloody hell. 'Take back control' being repeated constantly. It's driving me insane.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,735
    edited June 2016
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I think the party conference is the likely time for the handover. If leave win I don't expect Osborne to be a candidate and I would expect him to stand down then at the latest. Although I believe the consequences of leave are grossly overstated the Chancellor resigning in the first few days would be sub optimal.

    I have always held the Chancellor in the highest regard but if Leave wins then him being reshuffled on Friday before the markets open may be almost too late. He has made his views on the British economy if we Leave abundantly clear and he'd have no post-Leave credibility left.
    They brought the Tories back from the depths to the natural party of government again.
    Maybe so, but they don't look like the natural party anymore! Corbynite Labour is still worse, but it's not as stark as it was - the Tories have gone bonkers and want us to believe they will still be able to work effectively with each other.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JournoStephen: Andrea Leadsom is first to blow the Turkey dog whistle. #BBCDebate
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,579
    Oh dear, the bankers want us to stay in!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Anecdote: I saw a WWC neighbour in ex-local authority house near me has taken down his England flag today from his flagpole, and put up an EU flag instead. Drove past it on the way home.

    Terrible omen. Feel sick.

    The guy owns an EU flag??! Mentalist.
    That's what I thought.

    Thing is: this guy normally always flys England and Union flags. And I leafletted his house thinking he was a dead cert for Leave.

    It's like a personal betrayal.
    You should ask him.
    Does sound like he's making a point to someone, possibly a family member or neighbour.
    Or the bloke that's been stuffing his letterbox with Leave leaflets?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,202
    Trust the TUC. Yeh, right....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,743
    Frances O'Grady not exactly shining so far.
  • Scott_P said:

    I have always held the Chancellor in the highest regard but if Leave wins then him being reshuffled on Friday before the markets open may be almost too late.

    How will we calm the markets?

    Sack the chancellor.

    Awesome.
    How will we calm the markets?
    Install a Chancellor who is full of confidence about Britain's economic future.
    Keeping a Chancellor who is basically saying "the UK is doomed" basically means that you do indeed think the UK is doomed.
    Exactly. Osborne has no faith in leaving the EU so must go if LEAVE wins. He has also lost so much credibility with the voters and markets that he is the proverbial "dead man walking". If REMAIN wins Cameron should unite the party by replacing Osborne with Andrea Leadsom.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    Oh dear. Not a good idea to be telling people that they've got a shit job.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,579
    Attacking Wetherspoons - car crash.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,368
    Chameleon said:

    Bloody hell. 'Take back control' being repeated constantly. It's driving me insane.

    And the majority of listeners will live in safe seats where their MP has effectively a job for life, every GE campaign will pass them by, and they have no control over anything...
  • The audience is a bit panto.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited June 2016
    Good article Alastair, and some interesting points to think about.

    If we do vote Leave, surely the Chancellor's job is untenable? He's promised Armageddon and would spook the markets if he were to stay in place.

    If Dave is sensible he'll reshuffle Gove to CoE on Friday and announce to the Cabinet his intention to stand down over the summer, but remaining as PM until the leadership election at Conference. He knows he will be a lame duck in Parliament at this point, and can only pass anything if he can carry the whole PCP with him. Whatever Dave chooses to do, he will have to act very quickly once the result is known. He's upset a lot of his colleagues and Graham Brady's postman is likely to have a full sack on Monday if he doesn't reach out to them.

    As for the next PM, if you're lucky there's still some 7/1 for Theresa May out there. She's managed to upset no-one by saying nothing in the referendum campaign, she's senior enough to be able to bring the party back together.

    And if it all goes Pete Tong, Shadsy will lay you 10/1 on a general election this year, and another 10/1 on it being next year. If it's a Leave vote those prices won't last.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,202
    Andrea Leadsom has such a beautiful voice.
  • SeanT said:

    Frances O'Grady???

    lol

    Hush she is speaking about those lovely small businesses that she has worked so much of her life to drive out of business....
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    Frances O'Grady not exactly shining so far.

    FOG. Thick and wet.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,202
    Ruth is good at the argument, needs to not be shouty though.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    edited June 2016

    Anecdote: I saw a WWC neighbour in ex-local authority house near me has taken down his England flag today from his flagpole, and put up an EU flag instead. Drove past it on the way home.

    Terrible omen. Feel sick.

    It's like a personal betrayal.

    What's the best way to drive turnout for Leave voters? Make them see a EU flag flying every day.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,735
    Mortimer said:

    I have a feeling Frances is going to prove a bad choice. Her tone of voice is not working for me on TV.
    !

    Quite scratchy. Petty, but can have an impact.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,497
    Mortimer said:

    Boris is going to play to the crowd much better than in the ITV debate.

    I've started to quite like him. He has personality deficiencies that make him entirely unsuitable to be PM but you can't fault his work ethic: he's worked his little socks off in this campaign.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,579
    Ruth Davidson promising perpetual economic growth in the EU.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    Leave are killing this, or is it just my bias?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,368

    This crowd is highly partisan. Far too much clapping and whooping going on.

    Guess it was always going to be.

    Getting an audience of neutrals would be pretty much impossible in the current febrile atmosphere, and too risky for the BBC if they failed. Far safer to give half the tickets to each side and allow them to nominate their half of the audience, which I suspect is what has happened.
  • Ruth Davidson attack dog supreme!!!!!!!! No surprise there. Boris "project fear back again".
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    Britain's got talent is shit tonight. Ant's looking old and Dec is nowhere to be seen.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,024
    Ruth is too aggressive.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,735
    I don't think Davidson likes Boris very much.

    Personally, since everyone engages in Fear, I think people playing the 'you're playing project fear' card use it as a crutch, but I think it works.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,579
    Lefty Boris!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @RobDotHutton: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE RUTH!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,122
    I can't imagine many undecideds sitting through this debate.
  • IanB2 said:

    Chameleon said:

    Bloody hell. 'Take back control' being repeated constantly. It's driving me insane.

    And the majority of listeners will live in safe seats where their MP has effectively a job for life, every GE campaign will pass them by, and they have no control over anything...
    They did in 1945, 1983 and 1997, not to mention 2015 in Scotland.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    kle4 said:

    I don't think Davidson likes Boris very much.

    Personally, since everyone engages in Fear, I think people playing the 'you're playing project fear' card use it as a crutch, but I think it works.

    Indeed. I think that it works.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,202
    Why o Why are Remain still going for Experts.

    IT ISNT WORKING FOR YOU
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    @IanB2

    " Of all the demographics I would expect a shift back to remain amongst retired people before Thursday."

    I think you will be sadly disappointed. Well, you will be if my group of pensioners are typical. The idea that those richer in years care more for themselves and live in the past wanting no change are sadly misplaced in my experience. Every pensioner I have met, including myself, care more for the future of their offspring will have to cope with and vote accordingly.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,284
    SeanT said:

    Ruth Davidson is by far the best REMAINER

    She's a star.

    This is big boy school tonight. Nail this and the pressure to find her a seat will be immense. I disagree with her on the EU but a Tory party led by Ruth would just be ace.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,255
    Sadiq has a weird accent. Is he really shakey or is it just me?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Sadiq is a poor man's Ed Miliband.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,773
    O'Grady is the weakest person there - but I guess she is there to get a particular niche of the electorate to turnout.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,743
    I just love Andrea Leadsom.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    "As a racist...." Great question BBC...
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,202

    Sadiq has a weird accent. Is he really shakey or is it just me?

    Sounds rattled. Might just be talking too fast for the mike/echo though.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    Remain seem to be sticking to their line. Perhaps a sign that internal polls show them ahead by just enough?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,812

    Anecdote: I saw a WWC neighbour in ex-local authority house near me has taken down his England flag today from his flagpole, and put up an EU flag instead. Drove past it on the way home.

    Terrible omen. Feel sick.

    I think you were hallucinating.

    WWC, previously cross of St. George, now all of a sudden an EU flag?

    Seems a stretch..
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,579
    MikeL said:

    O'Grady is the weakest person there - but I guess she is there to get a particular niche of the electorate to turnout.

    The shop steward niche? Not that big is it?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,202
    I do wish someone would say that we had equal pay legislation when parts of Europe were ruled by dictators....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,735
    I'm personally glad we're in the EU, or else I'd be a terrible racist without them.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,024
    DavidL said:

    SeanT said:

    Ruth Davidson is by far the best REMAINER

    She's a star.

    This is big boy school tonight. Nail this and the pressure to find her a seat will be immense. I disagree with her on the EU but a Tory party led by Ruth would just be ace.
    I don't think so, though I do support her in Scotland.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    edited June 2016
    1 driver, 1 passenger and a handbrake for Remain.
  • <

    Ruth Davidson attack dog supreme!!!!!!!! No surprise there. Boris "project fear back again".

    A Scottish politician putting the boot in will go down like cold sick in provincial England. Even if the point is valid.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,730
    PB comments on the debate performances: Tories amazing, Labour bad. Well, you learn something every day.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,918
    Chameleon said:

    Bloody hell. 'Take back control' being repeated constantly. It's driving me insane.

    It's a powerful soundbite, sure there's been polling on it and it will be deployed time after time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,735

    IanB2 said:

    Chameleon said:

    Bloody hell. 'Take back control' being repeated constantly. It's driving me insane.

    And the majority of listeners will live in safe seats where their MP has effectively a job for life, every GE campaign will pass them by, and they have no control over anything...
    They did in 1945, 1983 and 1997, not to mention 2015 in Scotland.
    That is, on very rare occasions.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,202
    RoyalBlue - how is it in the audience?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,857
    Haha

    Child free tax care.

    Muppet
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,211
    Remain are stronger than the ITV debate
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    EPG said:

    PB comments on the debate performances: Tories amazing, Labour bad. Well, you learn something every day.

    Stuart is the best up there imo.
  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    DeClare said:

    currystar said:

    Reading through this site 90% of people think Leave will win, yet all bookmakers have leave at 3/1. Very very few people on here predicted a tory majority at the GE hence the bookies were in line with peoples thoughts on here i.e wrong. On the referendum they think massively different (and I am sure they read this site). I am totally lost by it all.

    This is a betting website, presumably people come here because they are interested in betting on politics.
    Have you never seen a favourite beaten before? bookmakers have never been known to give away money, if any event is a certainty, they would take no bets on it.
    You can still back Remain at 2/7 so there is still doubt over the result, my feeling is that some big players have been betting with their hearts instead of their heads and the value lies with Leave.
    Look at the polls, the trend has been towards Leave for some time except for a wobble after the murder in Yorkshire (which probably wouldn't have translated into actual votes)
    My gut feeling is that the Remain vote is soft, the ludicrous scare stories fool very few people and surely there can't be anyone who is actually a fan of the EU (apart from people who work there)
    3/1 Leave is good value and you can hedge it by backing the FTSE to rise on Friday, if Leave win, you collect from the bookies and if you buy actual shares, they'll recover in time anyway, if Remain does win, you collect on the stockmarket next week.
    That's what I'm doing, I'm also voting Leave and quite confident of Leave winning.
    I agree entirely with your post. What I cant understand is as the polls are even and the general view is that Leave will win whay are they 3/1.
    Favourites are beaten all time, even very long odds shoys, but there are reasons why they are long odds on shots. I cannot see the reason why remain are 2/9. It makes no sense.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,579

    Remain are stronger than the ITV debate

    Not difficult, but I agree.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    I find this unwatchable.
  • ConcanvasserConcanvasser Posts: 171
    I have just had an email from the Labour party (i paid 3 quid to vote for Jez) reminding me there is an election on Thursday.
    It says the election is important. It allows me help to find my polling station and suggests I make a plan for when I vote.
    NO WHERE does it suggest I vote Remain.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,426
    EPG said:

    PB comments on the debate performances: Tories amazing, Labour bad. Well, you learn something every day.

    An indisputable fact.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @FF43

    'Britain after Brexit will be like Ireland in 1922, minus the shooting. Economic disruption, elites arguing with each other about how to deal with the bigger power and possible territorial breakaways.'

    You forgot the swarm of locusts.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,579

    Haha

    Child free tax care.

    Muppet

    I quite like the sound of that!

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,202
    This remain team doing better, but need to be careful not to continue talking down to voters.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,743
    Dimbleby needs to retire. Keeps mumbling into his mic and forgetting to turn it off.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,284
    Scott_P said:

    @RobDotHutton: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE RUTH!

    LOL

    Anyone who can make the Tories the official opposition in Scotland finds walking on water easy. Hell she can even sell remain and what a piece of crap that is.
  • kle4 said:

    I don't think Davidson likes Boris very much.

    Personally, since everyone engages in Fear, I think people playing the 'you're playing project fear' card use it as a crutch, but I think it works.

    This was well known and a clear move by Cameron/Osborne to continue the Amber Rudd line. Exactly why they are unfit to lead the Conservative party.
    Quite what Labour voting working class males make of all this is another matter.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,735
    'Don't need Brussells to defende you[workers]'

    Well delivered line
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,579
    EPG said:

    PB comments on the debate performances: Tories amazing, Labour bad. Well, you learn something every day.

    Gisela is great - but I guess many Labour people think she's a red Tory.
  • kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Chameleon said:

    Bloody hell. 'Take back control' being repeated constantly. It's driving me insane.

    And the majority of listeners will live in safe seats where their MP has effectively a job for life, every GE campaign will pass them by, and they have no control over anything...
    They did in 1945, 1983 and 1997, not to mention 2015 in Scotland.
    That is, on very rare occasions.
    If we vote remain it becomes never.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,368

    @IanB2

    " Of all the demographics I would expect a shift back to remain amongst retired people before Thursday."

    I think you will be sadly disappointed. Well, you will be if my group of pensioners are typical. The idea that those richer in years care more for themselves and live in the past wanting no change are sadly misplaced in my experience. Every pensioner I have met, including myself, care more for the future of their offspring will have to cope with and vote accordingly.

    If so then more of them should be switching to remain, surely.

    My mother is a sample of one but she remains torn between her big-C dislike of the EU and her small-c reluctance to stake the future on what, at best, is a gamble
  • YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740

    Haha

    Child free tax care.

    Muppet

    More or less sums up how the Conservative Party stopped wanting to conserve things and turned into Gladstonian Neoliberals in the late '80s.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    SeanT said:

    Gisela Stuart is nailing this.

    Her strong performance is massive for Leave.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,024
    Red on red.
    Tooth and claw soon.
  • I have just had an email from the Labour party (i paid 3 quid to vote for Jez) reminding me there is an election on Thursday.
    It says the election is important. It allows me help to find my polling station and suggests I make a plan for when I vote.
    NO WHERE does it suggest I vote Remain.

    I'm quite impressed, unless it's simply a mistake.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,202
    Khan attacking Tories. Won't work.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,735
    I think Khan suffers from lacking the charisma of both his predecessors as Mayor. He's not bad exactly, just lacks a little something. He's probably not as bad as their bad points though.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,202

    I have just had an email from the Labour party (i paid 3 quid to vote for Jez) reminding me there is an election on Thursday.
    It says the election is important. It allows me help to find my polling station and suggests I make a plan for when I vote.
    NO WHERE does it suggest I vote Remain.

    That is absolutely hilarious.

    Send on to Guido?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,211
    Mortimer said:

    Khan attacking Tories. Won't work.

    He and Frances O'Grady are targeting labour voters
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    Shit, the soundbites are good for leave.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,743
    Sadiq shouting "it's a lie" like a 6th form debater isn't a good look.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264

    Mortimer said:

    Khan attacking Tories. Won't work.

    He and Frances O'Grady are targeting labour voters
    Stuart is competing over the same audience. She's performing a lot better imo.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    I have just had an email from the Labour party (i paid 3 quid to vote for Jez) reminding me there is an election on Thursday.
    It says the election is important. It allows me help to find my polling station and suggests I make a plan for when I vote.
    NO WHERE does it suggest I vote Remain.

    An election? Great, who are the candidates?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,743
    Remain going for the "no turning back" line again and again.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,202
    Obama being booed!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,284

    I have just had an email from the Labour party (i paid 3 quid to vote for Jez) reminding me there is an election on Thursday.
    It says the election is important. It allows me help to find my polling station and suggests I make a plan for when I vote.
    NO WHERE does it suggest I vote Remain.

    Well don't then. QED.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,202
    Leadsom is NAILING the speaking into the cameras.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Ruth blunders into talking down Britian. Gets booed.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    currystar said:

    DeClare said:

    currystar said:

    Reading through this site 90% of people think Leave will win, yet all bookmakers have leave at 3/1. Very very few people on here predicted a tory majority at the GE hence the bookies were in line with peoples thoughts on here i.e wrong. On the referendum they think massively different (and I am sure they read this site). I am totally lost by it all.

    This is a betting website, presumably people come here because they are interested in betting on politics.
    Have you never seen a favourite beaten before? bookmakers have never been known to give away money, if any event is a certainty, they would take no bets on it.
    You can still back Remain at 2/7 so there is still doubt over the result, my feeling is that some big players have been betting with their hearts instead of their heads and the value lies with Leave.
    Look at the polls, the trend has been towards Leave for some time except for a wobble after the murder in Yorkshire (which probably wouldn't have translated into actual votes)
    My gut feeling is that the Remain vote is soft, the ludicrous scare stories fool very few people and surely there can't be anyone who is actually a fan of the EU (apart from people who work there)
    3/1 Leave is good value and you can hedge it by backing the FTSE to rise on Friday, if Leave win, you collect from the bookies and if you buy actual shares, they'll recover in time anyway, if Remain does win, you collect on the stockmarket next week.
    That's what I'm doing, I'm also voting Leave and quite confident of Leave winning.
    I agree entirely with your post. What I cant understand is as the polls are even and the general view is that Leave will win whay are they 3/1.
    Favourites are beaten all time, even very long odds shoys, but there are reasons why they are long odds on shots. I cannot see the reason why remain are 2/9. It makes no sense.
    Maybe it's all wealthy Leave supporters hedging? ;)
  • john_zims said:

    @FF43

    'Britain after Brexit will be like Ireland in 1922, minus the shooting. Economic disruption, elites arguing with each other about how to deal with the bigger power and possible territorial breakaways.'

    You forgot the swarm of locusts.

    I dont find many people in RoI pining for the good old days of Ireland being in the UK and everything run from Westminster
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,040
    I think we are seeing this in a partisan light. I think the Leave side is coming across as thoroughly mendacious.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,743
    "Takeaway curry" lol!
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,918
    edited June 2016

    Remain going for the "no turning back" line again and again.

    I don't get that line at all. It makes me think of a runaway train or a car crash in slow motion.

    'Take back control' is a positive action, 'no turning back' makes one feel passive, in the backseat.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,735
    I've sometimes thought one of Cameron's strengths is that he can get angry and hectoring and, generally, it works. Davidson is going angry, but I don't find it annoying. She's playing a bad hand though.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,202
    Khan talking down Britain.

    Call him on it Boris. Call him on it!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,743

    I think we are seeing this in a partisan light. I think the Leave side is coming across as thoroughly mendacious.

    Interesting.
This discussion has been closed.