These lies about Turkey from Leave are contemptible.
It's great. Few other things demonstrate the lying hypocrisy of the EU better. It is EU and UK policy that they join but no one really means it. It's just a convenient lie for the stupid people. Who can believe anything these scum say about anything?
Honestly, immigration is such an open goal for Leave, I'm not sure how Remain are even supposed to get through these sections without damage. Just refuse to say anything for 15 minutes?
I think the one point they can make is Non EU migration being just as high.
Just took herself, who was watching the debate, a cup of tea and caught sight of Ruth Davidson doing finger pointing and being very shouty. Total turn-off for me, cannot abide that sort of behaviour. As I left the room Herself was changing channels to watch something else.
I am sure I have been told that Davidson was a good and engaging politician, a potential Conservative leader at Westminster. Well, you only get one chance to make a first impression and that was her's for me. Shouty, bossy, woman who likes to point fingers and cannot engage in reasonable debate - file under forget.
British politics as we once knew it died during this campaign. We now have this reheated US tripe.
I fear you are correct, Mr. Jonathon, though the illness as contracted a good ways back. God only knows what the next GE will be like.
With regret, it died a long time ago. There is too much saying that your opponent wants to eat babies. (As I see it mostly from the left) rather than saying what you will do.
I'm really standing by the Turkey issue - until and unless the British government stop supporting Turkish entry, it says the British government want Turkey in the EU.
A country has to adopt and enforce all the current EU rules before it can be admitted to the bloc. EU rules are divided into 35 policy areas and in 10 years Turkey only managed to adopt the rules on one: science and research. In most other areas it has not even made a start.
These lies about Turkey from Leave are contemptible.
F*ck off, old bean. It is the EU's established policy that Turkey join. Again, it just is.
It is a lie that Turkish membership is in any way imminent. It just is.
With respect Southam this is a 40-70 year question at the minimum - so in the long term Turkey is relevant I think. Personally I'm not looking ahead 70 years as I might be dead but long term I think Turkey is joining.
It's a long term issue, but do you really think people are worried about the things that will happen in 40-70years? If people thought Turkey was a long term issue they wouldn't give two shits - they think it is a short to medium term issue.
Honestly, immigration is such an open goal for Leave, I'm not sure how Remain are even supposed to get through these sections without damage. Just refuse to say anything for 15 minutes?
That approach may just have done better for them if they had done that.
Why haven't LEAVE used Dan Hannan on the big stage?
He is a first class communicator.
He's always seemed decent in the things i've seen him, but he's been pretty invisible. Now, maybe he's putting in the hard yards I'm not seeing, but it's odd.
From what I have seen and read about Hannan he would find it very difficult to support the leave position on things like Turkey and the £350 million a week. I may be wrong but I have not heard him use either attack line and I suspect by mutual consent he has chosen not to be frontline because he couldn't honestly defend against those lines.
These lies about Turkey from Leave are contemptible.
It's great. Few other things demonstrate the lying hypocrisy of the EU better. It is EU and UK policy that they join but no one really means it. It's just a convenient lie for the stupid people. Who can believe anything these scum say about anything?
I'm really standing by the Turkey issue - until and unless the British government stop supporting Turkish entry, it says the British government want Turkey in the EU.
A country has to adopt and enforce all the current EU rules before it can be admitted to the bloc. EU rules are divided into 35 policy areas and in 10 years Turkey only managed to adopt the rules on one: science and research. In most other areas it has not even made a start.
Remember that applying to being able to join the Euro and it being fiddled to let Greece join?
Andrea is not performing as well this time as in the studio.
Gisella, meanwhile, is knocking things out of the park.
Gisella is totally wasted in the Labour Party. They don't appreciate her and she is a gem. I'd love to see her in a Gove government in charge of something like welfare. She has so much to offer.
In the event of leave I would like to see a Leave cabinet of national unity... or similar.
It should not be an opportunity for a stitch up.
Before anyone panics about a certain person, I would only include MPs in that.
On another note, why does Alistair Meeks seem to think it's nailed on for leave?
There is only one poll that counts and all we are getting from the opinion polls is noise...
Get Farage in the House of Lords and make him.Foreign Secretary LOL
These lies about Turkey from Leave are contemptible.
F*ck off, old bean. It is the EU's established policy that Turkey join. Again, it just is.
It is a lie that Turkish membership is in any way imminent. It just is.
With respect Southam this is a 40-70 year question at the minimum - so in the long term Turkey is relevant I think. Personally I'm not looking ahead 70 years as I might be dead but long term I think Turkey is joining.
It's a long term issue, but do you really think people are worried about the things that will happen in 40-70years? If people thought Turkey was a long term issue they wouldn't give two shits - they think it is a short to medium term issue.
This is a vote for the long term though, you need to think about your children ! (Or niblings)
Honestly, immigration is such an open goal for Leave, I'm not sure how Remain are even supposed to get through these sections without damage. Just refuse to say anything for 15 minutes?
I think their best tactic would be to say that the Leave side truthfully don't really want to bring down immigration -- remind Boris of when he said he's the most pro-immigration politician in Britain, and Gove saying that even Theresa May was too tough on immigration.
If Remain could fight for a draw on immigration (by saying "immigration won't change regardless of how we vote"), then they could say that people may as well make their decision on other issues. But tractor stats about immigrants "putting more in than they take out" aren't going to work.
Traitor should not be used in this debate to describe anyone.
Agreed.
Can we make an exception for the late Edward Heath though?
TSE was more than happy enough to use it until recently.
But out of respect for those Remainers I admire on here I have refrained from using the term in the last few weeks. # I prefer now to reflect how French TSE has become in his attitudes. I think he should be renamed from TSE to LSE.
Honestly, immigration is such an open goal for Leave, I'm not sure how Remain are even supposed to get through these sections without damage. Just refuse to say anything for 15 minutes?
I think the one point they can make is Non EU migration being just as high.
Yeah, but Leave's 'Aussie-style points system' would apply to both EU and non-EU, so would presumably reduce both if it is to reduce one.
These lies about Turkey from Leave are contemptible.
It's great. Few other things demonstrate the lying hypocrisy of the EU better. It is EU and UK policy that they join but no one really means it. It's just a convenient lie for the stupid people. Who can believe anything these scum say about anything?
Honestly, immigration is such an open goal for Leave, I'm not sure how Remain are even supposed to get through these sections without damage. Just refuse to say anything for 15 minutes?
I think the one point they can make is Non EU migration being just as high.
Yeah, but Leave's 'Aussie-style points system' would apply to both EU and non-EU, so would presumably reduce both if it is to reduce one.
Andrea is not performing as well this time as in the studio.
Gisella, meanwhile, is knocking things out of the park.
Gisella is totally wasted in the Labour Party. They don't appreciate her and she is a gem. I'd love to see her in a Gove government in charge of something like welfare. She has so much to offer.
In the event of leave I would like to see a Leave cabinet of national unity... or similar.
It should not be an opportunity for a stitch up.
Before anyone panics about a certain person, I would only include MPs in that.
On another note, why does Alistair Meeks seem to think it's nailed on for leave?
There is only one poll that counts and all we are getting from the opinion polls is noise...
I agree with Alistair after doing the maths - see previous thread for details.
Ermm... I am not going to pick through 850 posts... But as far as I can tell it's close. The PM is bricking it as are Brussels (good, politicians should) but it isn't over. (Certainly not on Betfair you can 4.1 for the UK and 3 in England at the moment, so pile in if you want some)
Gisela came unstuck on the "promise" to reduce immigration... Not sure why because all she had to do was say LEAVE is not standing on a manifesto and it will be for future governments, after we've left, to decide what level we need on a year by year and parliament and parliament basis.
The point of taking back control is that you have control to set the level to whatever is deemed appropriate at the time.
Leadsom grinning as smugly as Osborne on a bad day.
F*cks like you are the reason we are here. If you had allowed a vote on the EU Constitution we would have stalled EU integration, and we wouldn't be faced with this hideous binary decision.
These lies about Turkey from Leave are contemptible.
It's great. Few other things demonstrate the lying hypocrisy of the EU better. It is EU and UK policy that they join but no one really means it. It's just a convenient lie for the stupid people. Who can believe anything these scum say about anything?
Jesus. That's genuinely frightening.
Good.
Great - let's all lie because people are stupid.
You clearly misunderstood his point.
Best to stick to your 'I told you so routine' about the brexit recession which hasn't happened yet.
These lies about Turkey from Leave are contemptible.
It's great. Few other things demonstrate the lying hypocrisy of the EU better. It is EU and UK policy that they join but no one really means it. It's just a convenient lie for the stupid people. Who can believe anything these scum say about anything?
Jesus. That's genuinely frightening.
Good.
Great - let's all lie because people are stupid.
You've been in another Remain strategy meeting haven't you?
Why haven't LEAVE used Dan Hannan on the big stage?
He is a first class communicator.
He's always seemed decent in the things i've seen him, but he's been pretty invisible. Now, maybe he's putting in the hard yards I'm not seeing, but it's odd.
From what I have seen and read about Hannan he would find it very difficult to support the leave position on things like Turkey and the £350 million a week. I may be wrong but I have not heard him use either attack line and I suspect by mutual consent he has chosen not to be frontline because he couldn't honestly defend against those lines.
He's not really an attack line chap, is he? I've only ever heard a positive vision of the UK outside the EU from him, any negativity being directed at the EU itself - its corrupt systems, unaccountable executive and expensive bureaucracy. Shame we've not seen more of him though, we need more positivity in politics. Hopefully we will make him redundant as an MEP and can get him on the green benches in the near future.
They had no answer to O'Grady's question on numbers.
Then after Davidson said that we need a much more intelligent debate on immigration, Leadsom countered with, "That is nonsense." Awful from the Leave team.
These lies about Turkey from Leave are contemptible.
It's great. Few other things demonstrate the lying hypocrisy of the EU better. It is EU and UK policy that they join but no one really means it. It's just a convenient lie for the stupid people. Who can believe anything these scum say about anything?
Jesus. That's genuinely frightening.
Good.
Great - let's all lie because people are stupid.
You've been in another Remain strategy meeting haven't you?
This is the first program of any kind I have watched on this dreadful referendum. I'm going to give an objective view, if that is possible.
Gisela Stuart- never heard of her- is the star of the show. Dimbleby is doing OK. Khan isn't too bad, And Boris has his usual appeal. The trade union women appears to be a bad pick. I like Ruth Davisdon a lot....so it is difficult for me to be objective, but she appears fine.
Amazed you have not heard of Gisela Stuart - really surprised, She is an ex-German (don;t know the details!) and has some experience of working in or for the EU which has turned her to leave.
Commands huge respect, and also for holding Birmingham Edgbaston repeatedly on small majorities but with no swing against her even in 2010
@KateEMcCann: Perfect example of @RuthDavidsonMSP's ability to pick up on the mood, she made the Mum/Gran joke Twitter has picked up while still on stage
The truth is we have 4m here now from the subcontinent who we have not tried nearly hard enough to integrate because of deeply demented multicultural policies and that is going to generate significant immigration leave or remain until they want a Brit as a bride or husband. Not much we can do about that except encourage integration at every opportunity.
But the unemployed of Europe is something we can do something about no matter how hard they want to work here.
I'm really standing by the Turkey issue - until and unless the British government stop supporting Turkish entry, it says the British government want Turkey in the EU.
A country has to adopt and enforce all the current EU rules before it can be admitted to the bloc. EU rules are divided into 35 policy areas and in 10 years Turkey only managed to adopt the rules on one: science and research. In most other areas it has not even made a start.
Even more argument not to support their entry.
Supporting entry once they meet those areas is not exactly rolling out the welcome mat. Granted, they get some leeway because they have us over a barrel, but that's another matter.
Traitor should not be used in this debate to describe anyone.
Agreed.
Can we make an exception for the late Edward Heath though?
TSE was more than happy enough to use it until recently.
But out of respect for those Remainers I admire on here I have refrained from using the term in the last few weeks. # I prefer now to reflect how French TSE has become in his attitudes. I think he should be renamed from TSE to LSE.
This is the first program of any kind I have watched on this dreadful referendum. I'm going to give an objective view, if that is possible.
Gisela Stuart- never heard of her- is the star of the show. Dimbleby is doing OK. Khan isn't too bad, And Boris has his usual appeal. The trade union women appears to be a bad pick. I like Ruth Davisdon a lot....so it is difficult for me to be objective, but she appears fine.
Amazed you have not heard of Gisela Stuart - really surprised, She is an ex-German (don;t know the details!) and has some experience of working in or for the EU which has turned her to leave.
Commands huge respect, and also for holding Birmingham Edgbaston repeatedly on small majorities but with no swing against her even in 2010
It doesn't surprise me that Gisela is German. After watching the footie this afternoon, I am under no illusion that they are the master race.
These lies about Turkey from Leave are contemptible.
It's great. Few other things demonstrate the lying hypocrisy of the EU better. It is EU and UK policy that they join but no one really means it. It's just a convenient lie for the stupid people. Who can believe anything these scum say about anything?
Jesus. That's genuinely frightening.
It is. It is however a reflection of the fact that most people view most politicians as duplicitous B'Stards. It is how it is. It would help if they tried to sound a little less PR and a little more honest. They don't because the other duplicitous B'Stards shout foul and gaffe when they do.
Leadsom grinning as smugly as Osborne on a bad day.
F*cks like you are the reason we are here. If you had allowed a vote on the EU Constitution we would have stalled EU integration, and we wouldn't be faced with this hideous binary decision.
Do you now realise this?
Charming
But I'm entirely right. And you know it. And so does Nick.
This is the first program of any kind I have watched on this dreadful referendum. I'm going to give an objective view, if that is possible.
Gisela Stuart- never heard of her- is the star of the show. Dimbleby is doing OK. Khan isn't too bad, And Boris has his usual appeal. The trade union women appears to be a bad pick. I like Ruth Davisdon a lot....so it is difficult for me to be objective, but she appears fine.
Amazed you have not heard of Gisela Stuart - really surprised, She is an ex-German (don;t know the details!) and has some experience of working in or for the EU which has turned her to leave.
Commands huge respect, and also for holding Birmingham Edgbaston repeatedly on small majorities but with no swing against her even in 2010
It doesn't surprise me that Gisela is German. After watching the footie this afternoon, I am under no illusion that they are the master race.
What rubbish. They cant even play cricket to county standard.
Yes indeed, that will double my journey time from Stafford to London inside a decade, since it takes the train about 10 minutes to get to Wolverhampton.
I'm really standing by the Turkey issue - until and unless the British government stop supporting Turkish entry, it says the British government want Turkey in the EU.
A country has to adopt and enforce all the current EU rules before it can be admitted to the bloc. EU rules are divided into 35 policy areas and in 10 years Turkey only managed to adopt the rules on one: science and research. In most other areas it has not even made a start.
Even more argument not to support their entry.
Quite. Turkey is moving away from EU conditions not towards them. There is no question Turkey joining the EU in our lifetime. It is a non-issue but promoted by the Leave side as a frightener.
The truth is we have 4m here now from the subcontinent who we have not tried nearly hard enough to integrate because of deeply demented multicultural policies and that is going to generate significant immigration leave or remain until they want a Brit as a bride or husband. Not much we can do about that except encourage integration at every opportunity.
But the unemployed of Europe is something we can do something about no matter how hard they want to work here.
@MarkSenior has made some very interesting points on non EU migration - the amount coming in compared to employment created was a staggering mismatch. And we should switch to a completely contributory benefits system if we vote to remain, as EU citizens will be fungible with British citizens.
Leadsom grinning as smugly as Osborne on a bad day.
F*cks like you are the reason we are here. If you had allowed a vote on the EU Constitution we would have stalled EU integration, and we wouldn't be faced with this hideous binary decision.
Do you now realise this?
You actually like this referendum and wish we'd had it sooner? There speaks a torture porn author.
Traitor should not be used in this debate to describe anyone.
Agreed.
Can we make an exception for the late Edward Heath though?
TSE was more than happy enough to use it until recently.
But out of respect for those Remainers I admire on here I have refrained from using the term in the last few weeks. # I prefer now to reflect how French TSE has become in his attitudes. I think he should be renamed from TSE to LSE.
Les aigles hurlants peut-etre?
Ta me old mucker. I speak French but had a momentary brainstorm and couldn't for the life of me think of the word for Eagle.
These lies about Turkey from Leave are contemptible.
It's great. Few other things demonstrate the lying hypocrisy of the EU better. It is EU and UK policy that they join but no one really means it. It's just a convenient lie for the stupid people. Who can believe anything these scum say about anything?
Jesus. That's genuinely frightening.
Good.
Great - let's all lie because people are stupid.
We only need to do that whilst in the EU. It is how they do business. It stinks. Stop it. Vote leave.
This is the first program of any kind I have watched on this dreadful referendum. I'm going to give an objective view, if that is possible.
Gisela Stuart- never heard of her- is the star of the show. Dimbleby is doing OK. Khan isn't too bad, And Boris has his usual appeal. The trade union women appears to be a bad pick. I like Ruth Davisdon a lot....so it is difficult for me to be objective, but she appears fine.
Amazed you have not heard of Gisela Stuart - really surprised, She is an ex-German (don;t know the details!) and has some experience of working in or for the EU which has turned her to leave.
Commands huge respect, and also for holding Birmingham Edgbaston repeatedly on small majorities but with no swing against her even in 2010
It doesn't surprise me that Gisela is German. After watching the footie this afternoon, I am under no illusion that they are the master race.
What rubbish. They cant even play cricket to county standard.
@NickyMorgan01: It's clear Vote Leave don't have a plan for the economy - and now it's getting clearer they don't have a plan for immigration #BBCDebate
Think the Leave side has now overused the Take back control meme - they're using it robotically in almost very round and the audience is starting to giggle.
I'm really standing by the Turkey issue - until and unless the British government stop supporting Turkish entry, it says the British government want Turkey in the EU.
A country has to adopt and enforce all the current EU rules before it can be admitted to the bloc. EU rules are divided into 35 policy areas and in 10 years Turkey only managed to adopt the rules on one: science and research. In most other areas it has not even made a start.
Even more argument not to support their entry.
Quite. Turkey is moving away from EU conditions not towards them. There is no question Turkey joining the EU in our lifetime. It is a non-issue but promoted by the Leave side as a frightener.
I don't trust the EU to abide by any of its own guidelines . It could just as easily turn around next year and redefine the guidelines in a way that makes Turkey admissable.
I'm really standing by the Turkey issue - until and unless the British government stop supporting Turkish entry, it says the British government want Turkey in the EU.
A country has to adopt and enforce all the current EU rules before it can be admitted to the bloc. EU rules are divided into 35 policy areas and in 10 years Turkey only managed to adopt the rules on one: science and research. In most other areas it has not even made a start.
Even more argument not to support their entry.
Quite. Turkey is moving away from EU conditions not towards them. There is no question Turkey joining the EU in our lifetime. It is a non-issue but promoted by the Leave side as a frightener.
Comments
'Oh, Sadiq. What are you doing.'
Making a pillock of himself,they should have stuck with Eagle.
O'Grady & Khan "It's the Tories, innit..."
If Remain could fight for a draw on immigration (by saying "immigration won't change regardless of how we vote"), then they could say that people may as well make their decision on other issues. But tractor stats about immigrants "putting more in than they take out" aren't going to work.
But out of respect for those Remainers I admire on here I have refrained from using the term in the last few weeks.
#
I prefer now to reflect how French TSE has become in his attitudes. I think he should be renamed from TSE to LSE.
Leadsom needs to be rebooted. She's turned into a robot spouting 'take back control'.
Stuart
Davidson
Boris
Leadsom
Khan
Dimbleby
Audience
Grady
I did love Davidson picking up on the overuse of the 'mum and grandmum stuff'. Pet peeve of mine.
But in terms of how it will play:
Leave
Leave
Leave
Leave
Remain
'Francis O'Grady is awful. Is every question going to lead to "But the Greedy Bankers!!!"?'
She thinks she's fighting the 2015 election.
Just turned the sound off during the break, Humza Yousuf looks really angry - was he?
The point of taking back control is that you have control to set the level to whatever is deemed appropriate at the time.
Best to stick to your 'I told you so routine' about the brexit recession which hasn't happened yet.
House !
Good man.
Then after Davidson said that we need a much more intelligent debate on immigration, Leadsom countered with, "That is nonsense." Awful from the Leave team.
@PCollinsTimes: Some politicians have a brief spell of being over-rated. That's what this is. https://t.co/X0Gu3OL0v2
Commands huge respect, and also for holding Birmingham Edgbaston repeatedly on small majorities but with no swing against her even in 2010
That's a horrifying prospect to be honest.
But the unemployed of Europe is something we can do something about no matter how hard they want to work here.
It doesn't surprise me that Gisela is German.
After watching the footie this afternoon, I am under no illusion that they are the master race.
Well, if so she's picked the right moment. Except not, since a Leave leader is incoming this year or next.
Hahahaha. Another cracking gag from her.
Honestly, it would be great for Remain if they could have tried that and made it stick. But even most Remainers won't believe it.
numbertwelve
Sarah Wollaston seems to have had a damascene conversion on EVERY issue.
Obviously a complete careerist. I don't think she does Remain any favours, people see right through that crap.'
The only thing Woolsaton cares about is herself.
People don't trust the EU. Simple as that.