@NickyMorgan01: It's clear Vote Leave don't have a plan for the economy - and now it's getting clearer they don't have a plan for immigration #BBCDebate
I'm really standing by the Turkey issue - until and unless the British government stop supporting Turkish entry, it says the British government want Turkey in the EU.
A country has to adopt and enforce all the current EU rules before it can be admitted to the bloc. EU rules are divided into 35 policy areas and in 10 years Turkey only managed to adopt the rules on one: science and research. In most other areas it has not even made a start.
Even more argument not to support their entry.
Quite. Turkey is moving away from EU conditions not towards them. There is no question Turkey joining the EU in our lifetime. It is a non-issue but promoted by the Leave side as a frightener.
I don't trust the EU to abide by any of its own guidelines . It could just as easily turn around next year and redefine the guidelines in a way that makes Turkey admissable.
People don't trust the EU. Simple as that.
I certainly don't trust the EU, that's why I'm for leave despite any other misgivings. But the opposition to Turkey joining is too strong from too many places for them to let them in anytime soon.
Traitor should not be used in this debate to describe anyone.
Agreed.
Can we make an exception for the late Edward Heath though?
TSE was more than happy enough to use it until recently.
But out of respect for those Remainers I admire on here I have refrained from using the term in the last few weeks. # I prefer now to reflect how French TSE has become in his attitudes. I think he should be renamed from TSE to LSE.
Les aigles hurlants peut-etre?
Ta me old mucker. I speak French but had a momentary brainstorm and couldn't for the life of me think of the word for Eagle.
Think the Leave side has now overused the Take back control meme - they're using it robotically in almost very round and the audience is starting to giggle.
Yup, I expect that they're hoping that TBC is rattling round people's heads as they enter the booth.
This is the first program of any kind I have watched on this dreadful referendum. I'm going to give an objective view, if that is possible.
Gisela Stuart- never heard of her- is the star of the show. Dimbleby is doing OK. Khan isn't too bad, And Boris has his usual appeal. The trade union women appears to be a bad pick. I like Ruth Davisdon a lot....so it is difficult for me to be objective, but she appears fine.
Amazed you have not heard of Gisela Stuart - really surprised, She is an ex-German (don;t know the details!) and has some experience of working in or for the EU which has turned her to leave.
Commands huge respect, and also for holding Birmingham Edgbaston repeatedly on small majorities but with no swing against her even in 2010
It doesn't surprise me that Gisela is German. After watching the footie this afternoon, I am under no illusion that they are the master race.
What rubbish. They cant even play cricket to county standard.
Except Shane Warne whose mum is German!
He does look a bit like that Harry Enfield young German character who keeps apologising for the war now you come to mention it.
I'm really standing by the Turkey issue - until and unless the British government stop supporting Turkish entry, it says the British government want Turkey in the EU.
A country has to adopt and enforce all the current EU rules before it can be admitted to the bloc. EU rules are divided into 35 policy areas and in 10 years Turkey only managed to adopt the rules on one: science and research. In most other areas it has not even made a start.
Even more argument not to support their entry.
Quite. Turkey is moving away from EU conditions not towards them. There is no question Turkey joining the EU in our lifetime. It is a non-issue but promoted by the Leave side as a frightener.
@NickyMorgan01: It's clear Vote Leave don't have a plan for the economy - and now it's getting clearer they don't have a plan for immigration #BBCDebate
They haven't got a plan for anything, other than Boris becoming PM. That's the plan.
I'm really standing by the Turkey issue - until and unless the British government stop supporting Turkish entry, it says the British government want Turkey in the EU.
A country has to adopt and enforce all the current EU rules before it can be admitted to the bloc. EU rules are divided into 35 policy areas and in 10 years Turkey only managed to adopt the rules on one: science and research. In most other areas it has not even made a start.
Even more argument not to support their entry.
Quite. Turkey is moving away from EU conditions not towards them. There is no question Turkey joining the EU in our lifetime. It is a non-issue but promoted by the Leave side as a frightener.
I don't trust the EU to abide by any of its own guidelines . It could just as easily turn around next year and redefine the guidelines in a way that makes Turkey admissable.
People don't trust the EU. Simple as that.
The US wants Turkey in the EU. It will happen, and much sooner than some on here think.
Think the Leave side has now overused the Take back control meme - they're using it robotically in almost very round and the audience is starting to giggle.
Probably for a TV audience that will drift in and out.
Leadsom grinning as smugly as Osborne on a bad day.
F*cks like you are the reason we are here. If you had allowed a vote on the EU Constitution we would have stalled EU integration, and we wouldn't be faced with this hideous binary decision.
Do you now realise this?
You actually like this referendum and wish we'd had it sooner? There speaks a torture porn author.
The referendum has been awful, but we need to have this debate - clearly 50% of people want to leave, what good comes from ignoring that rather than taking it on?
These lies about Turkey from Leave are contemptible.
It's great. Few other things demonstrate the lying hypocrisy of the EU better. It is EU and UK policy that they join but no one really means it. It's just a convenient lie for the stupid people. Who can believe anything these scum say about anything?
Jesus. That's genuinely frightening.
Good.
Great - let's all lie because people are stupid.
We only need to do that whilst in the EU. It is how they do business. It stinks. Stop it. Vote leave.
Think the Leave side has now overused the Take back control meme - they're using it robotically in almost very round and the audience is starting to giggle.
Very few uncommitted are watching this but quite a few will see clips. It's the new Labour way. Have you forgotten ?
Why haven't LEAVE used Dan Hannan on the big stage?
He is a first class communicator.
He's always seemed decent in the things i've seen him, but he's been pretty invisible. Now, maybe he's putting in the hard yards I'm not seeing, but it's odd.
From what I have seen and read about Hannan he would find it very difficult to support the leave position on things like Turkey and the £350 million a week. I may be wrong but I have not heard him use either attack line and I suspect by mutual consent he has chosen not to be frontline because he couldn't honestly defend against those lines.
Thats an interesting viewpoint, Mr, Tyndall. I doubt it is correct because I think Turkey has only come up as an issue as the campaign has progressed. So it would not have been in the forefront of anyone's thinking in planning the campaign which would have been when how to make best use of Mr. Hannan's talents would have been decided. The £350 million a week is an accountants' squabble and I am sure if Mr. Hannan dug his heels in it would have been reduced to the less controversial but still enormous amount.
Mr. Hannan is a very good and convincing speaker, and provided that the campaign had provided him with a good minder (his time keeping is shocking), could have been a much greater asset.
I expect we will have to wait until the memoirs are published to find out why he was not used to full effect.
I'm really standing by the Turkey issue - until and unless the British government stop supporting Turkish entry, it says the British government want Turkey in the EU.
A country has to adopt and enforce all the current EU rules before it can be admitted to the bloc. EU rules are divided into 35 policy areas and in 10 years Turkey only managed to adopt the rules on one: science and research. In most other areas it has not even made a start.
Even more argument not to support their entry.
Quite. Turkey is moving away from EU conditions not towards them. There is no question Turkey joining the EU in our lifetime. It is a non-issue but promoted by the Leave side as a frightener.
Turkey is a great example of duplictous politicians, saying one thing to one audience and something else to another. Cameron stood up in Ankara and Istabul and proclaimed his wish for Turkey to join the EU, then he turns up back at home and said its not on the agenda. That's why it's a big point for Leave.
I'm really standing by the Turkey issue - until and unless the British government stop supporting Turkish entry, it says the British government want Turkey in the EU.
A country has to adopt and enforce all the current EU rules before it can be admitted to the bloc. EU rules are divided into 35 policy areas and in 10 years Turkey only managed to adopt the rules on one: science and research. In most other areas it has not even made a start.
Even more argument not to support their entry.
Quite. Turkey is moving away from EU conditions not towards them. There is no question Turkey joining the EU in our lifetime. It is a non-issue but promoted by the Leave side as a frightener.
I don't trust the EU to abide by any of its own guidelines . It could just as easily turn around next year and redefine the guidelines in a way that makes Turkey admissable.
People don't trust the EU. Simple as that.
I certainly don't trust the EU, that's why I'm for leave despite any other misgivings. But the opposition to Turkey joining is too strong from too many places for them to let them in anytime soon.
Can you imagine how absurd the idea was in 1988 of Romania and Bulgaria joining?
And an East German University party agitpropper being chancellor of all Germany?
Thats only 28 years ago. Last Eu ref was 41 years ago.
These lies about Turkey from Leave are contemptible.
It's great. Few other things demonstrate the lying hypocrisy of the EU better. It is EU and UK policy that they join but no one really means it. It's just a convenient lie for the stupid people. Who can believe anything these scum say about anything?
Jesus. That's genuinely frightening.
Good.
Great - let's all lie because people are stupid.
We only need to do that whilst in the EU. It is how they do business. It stinks. Stop it. Vote leave.
You need to tell lies to Leave. I agree.
The lies are being told that want us to remain. We support Turkey becoming a part of the EU (honest ). How can you support such nonsense ?
Think the Leave side has now overused the Take back control meme - they're using it robotically in almost very round and the audience is starting to giggle.
Surely it doesn't matter how much they overuse it - it's important it be included in the highlights, that's all that matters, and use it enough and it will.
Unless it's a funny 'I agree with Nick' line maybe, but Take Back Control is a good slogan
This is the first program of any kind I have watched on this dreadful referendum. I'm going to give an objective view, if that is possible.
Gisela Stuart- never heard of her- is the star of the show. Dimbleby is doing OK. Khan isn't too bad, And Boris has his usual appeal. The trade union women appears to be a bad pick. I like Ruth Davisdon a lot....so it is difficult for me to be objective, but she appears fine.
Amazed you have not heard of Gisela Stuart - really surprised, She is an ex-German (don;t know the details!) and has some experience of working in or for the EU which has turned her to leave.
Commands huge respect, and also for holding Birmingham Edgbaston repeatedly on small majorities but with no swing against her even in 2010
It doesn't surprise me that Gisela is German. After watching the footie this afternoon, I am under no illusion that they are the master race.
What rubbish. They cant even play cricket to county standard.
Shush. You cannot let the Germans start taking an interest in cricket. That's our secret so we can push around our commonwealth friends, sometimes. If the Germans started playing cricket, we'd start seeing test matches being finished by lunch day 1.
Leadsom grinning as smugly as Osborne on a bad day.
F*cks like you are the reason we are here. If you had allowed a vote on the EU Constitution we would have stalled EU integration, and we wouldn't be faced with this hideous binary decision.
Do you now realise this?
You actually like this referendum and wish we'd had it sooner? There speaks a torture porn author.
This referendum is dire, and we are painted into a corner. A big part of the reason we are there is precisely because the last Govt denied us a vote on a less binary choice, and signed up to a renamed document and called it "tidying up exercise". Not great the way things panned out. I think a genuine chance for reform was missed. It certainly pushed me to the edge, and Dave pushed me over four months ago.
This is the first program of any kind I have watched on this dreadful referendum. I'm going to give an objective view, if that is possible.
Gisela Stuart- never heard of her- is the star of the show. Dimbleby is doing OK. Khan isn't too bad, And Boris has his usual appeal. The trade union women appears to be a bad pick. I like Ruth Davisdon a lot....so it is difficult for me to be objective, but she appears fine.
Amazed you have not heard of Gisela Stuart - really surprised, She is an ex-German (don;t know the details!) and has some experience of working in or for the EU which has turned her to leave.
Commands huge respect, and also for holding Birmingham Edgbaston repeatedly on small majorities but with no swing against her even in 2010
Gisela has never worked in or for the EU, although Tony Blair appointed her as one of the UK Parliamentary representatives to negotiate the constitution. We both sat on the European Affairs Select Committee, where she was always a sceptic. She's got lots of unusual positions for Labour on fringe issues (endorsed George Bush, opposed the hunting ban) but is very mainline on economy and social issues.
Don't think the cheers prove anything one way or another. The audience are merely cheerleaders for one side or another. I doubt there are many undecided in the audience.
I'm really standing by the Turkey issue - until and unless the British government stop supporting Turkish entry, it says the British government want Turkey in the EU.
A country has to adopt and enforce all the current EU rules before it can be admitted to the bloc. EU rules are divided into 35 policy areas and in 10 years Turkey only managed to adopt the rules on one: science and research. In most other areas it has not even made a start.
Even more argument not to support their entry.
Quite. Turkey is moving away from EU conditions not towards them. There is no question Turkey joining the EU in our lifetime. It is a non-issue but promoted by the Leave side as a frightener.
Quite right. Moreover the demographics are indisputable: the Kemalists are dying out and aren't coming back. But, for reasons of diplomatic sensitivity, Cameron can't shout this from the rooftops.
@NickyMorgan01: It's clear Vote Leave don't have a plan for the economy - and now it's getting clearer they don't have a plan for immigration #BBCDebate
They haven't got a plan for anything, other than Boris becoming PM. That's the plan.
I'm really standing by the Turkey issue - until and unless the British government stop supporting Turkish entry, it says the British government want Turkey in the EU.
A country has to adopt and enforce all the current EU rules before it can be admitted to the bloc. EU rules are divided into 35 policy areas and in 10 years Turkey only managed to adopt the rules on one: science and research. In most other areas it has not even made a start.
Even more argument not to support their entry.
Quite. Turkey is moving away from EU conditions not towards them. There is no question Turkey joining the EU in our lifetime. It is a non-issue but promoted by the Leave side as a frightener.
You are of course correct that Turkey is not currently heading in a European direction.
"In our lifetime" is a bit extreme - depends how soon you are planning to die, I suppose, but Bulgaria and Romania came into the EU despite many failings and naysayers saying that it would take decades given their corruption and poor legal and democratic structures. Heck, there were 15 years between the fall of the Berlin Wall and communist rule over East Europe, and Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, and Slovenia joining the EU. There is a similar timeframe between the Spanish Francoists, the Portuguese Estado Novo and the Greek colonels, and those countries joining the EEC.
Given a change in electoral direction, and 10 years of Post-Erdoganism, it's hardly inconceivable that Turkey could join the EU.
If EU types want us to believe that Turkey is a non-issue, they should quit saying how much they support Turkish membership in the long run, and quit their silly pretences of progressing accession negotiations in exchange for Turkish cooperation over e.g. the migrant crisis. (Frankly I'd much rather the EU stood up for the democracy and human rights its supporters claim are oh so special to them, and tell Erdogan he's being a dictatorial little **** and accession is shelved until he sorts out his treatment of journalists, political opponents and ethnic minorities. But fat chance of that.)
Think the Leave side has now overused the Take back control meme - they're using it robotically in almost very round and the audience is starting to giggle.
Yup, I expect that they're hoping that TBC is rattling round people's heads as they enter the booth.
Ruth has had best lines and reactive responses, but not flawless, has to get aggressive and swing for the fences on weak Remain points and not all have worked out.
Boris is rude, but then he always was, and he's had some good lines and is likable.
Leadsom is pitching for very rational, but from what people said about her I find her underwhelming.
Stuart has been serious, insistent, convincing.
Khan - seems nervous, wobbly, occasionally rallies but not solid.
Grady - is not a public speaker, simple as.
In football, what is the point of those extra refs on the goalline? They never spot anything that happens.
Bet Nicola Sturgeon is looking on with considerable concern. I have said for a long time that she is a rising star and tonight she has landed on the National scene
Ruth carrying the remain team to be perfectly honest.
Yup. That OGrady person hasn't spoken for a while or is that just me?
I'm watching the football with the debate over my bluetooth. The trade union women comes over much better if you don't see her (apologies for my misogyny).
The take back control slogan is getting a bit worn, truth be told.
Comments
Mr. Hannan is a very good and convincing speaker, and provided that the campaign had provided him with a good minder (his time keeping is shocking), could have been a much greater asset.
I expect we will have to wait until the memoirs are published to find out why he was not used to full effect.
Long Term Economic Plan
And an East German University party agitpropper being chancellor of all Germany?
Thats only 28 years ago. Last Eu ref was 41 years ago.
Unless it's a funny 'I agree with Nick' line maybe, but Take Back Control is a good slogan
'A country has to adopt and enforce all the current EU rules before it can be admitted to the bloc.'
Just as we were told that any country that wanted to join the Euro had to abide by very strict financial rules ?
If the rule book can be thrown out the window for something as important as the single currency it can be very easily discarded to let Turkey in.
Who's winning?
Just switched on to hear Red Tory Stuart trot out some old bollocks about the EU that is never going to happen.
Is that what it's been like so far?
I love when parties object to a tactic then use it themselves. Expert Remain to criticise fear soon.
Judging by the comments on here it is pretty similar.
Ruth wearing red? Double bluff?
Her v Khan in 2020 would be a great and engaging contest. Shame it won't happen.
Start of debate - 1.33
Then went in to - 1.32
Now just gone - 1.31
Frances O'Grady woeful.
Edit: "Derry"????!!!!
"In our lifetime" is a bit extreme - depends how soon you are planning to die, I suppose, but Bulgaria and Romania came into the EU despite many failings and naysayers saying that it would take decades given their corruption and poor legal and democratic structures. Heck, there were 15 years between the fall of the Berlin Wall and communist rule over East Europe, and Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, and Slovenia joining the EU. There is a similar timeframe between the Spanish Francoists, the Portuguese Estado Novo and the Greek colonels, and those countries joining the EEC.
Given a change in electoral direction, and 10 years of Post-Erdoganism, it's hardly inconceivable that Turkey could join the EU.
If EU types want us to believe that Turkey is a non-issue, they should quit saying how much they support Turkish membership in the long run, and quit their silly pretences of progressing accession negotiations in exchange for Turkish cooperation over e.g. the migrant crisis. (Frankly I'd much rather the EU stood up for the democracy and human rights its supporters claim are oh so special to them, and tell Erdogan he's being a dictatorial little **** and accession is shelved until he sorts out his treatment of journalists, political opponents and ethnic minorities. But fat chance of that.)
Boris seems a bit quiet!
If Croatia nick a goal against Spain then Spain end up playing Italy in the next round.
Boris is rude, but then he always was, and he's had some good lines and is likable.
Leadsom is pitching for very rational, but from what people said about her I find her underwhelming.
Stuart has been serious, insistent, convincing.
Khan - seems nervous, wobbly, occasionally rallies but not solid.
Grady - is not a public speaker, simple as.
In football, what is the point of those extra refs on the goalline? They never spot anything that happens.
The take back control slogan is getting a bit worn, truth be told.
At best.
If it wasn't for the fact that all the Leavers are duplicitous shits, I would say Leave had the stronger team.
As it stands they'll be third in the third-place table, jumping Albania on goals scored.
Khan is like a petulant 5 year old.
Already Germany, Italy, France, England in one half - if Spain come 2nd they go in that half as well.
Great idea...