Bloody hell. 'Take back control' being repeated constantly. It's driving me insane.
And the majority of listeners will live in safe seats where their MP has effectively a job for life, every GE campaign will pass them by, and they have no control over anything...
They did in 1945, 1983 and 1997, not to mention 2015 in Scotland.
That is, on very rare occasions.
Not just that. Even in '97, there were 165 Cons seats. Even in '83, there were over 200 Lab seats. That's a lot of seats that are only vulnerable to a Tatton 1997 scenario. This isn't a Coting system point as such (phew!) but the direct control voters have over MPs only goes so far.
This is a shoo-in for LEAVE, but I think that's because they have all the soundbites and all the emotions. .
Well yes. I honestly don't know how Remain could win a public debate - the case for the EU requires quite a bit of nuance, of give and take. The case for Leave is complain about the things you don't like, it's bloody easy.
I have just had an email from the Labour party (i paid 3 quid to vote for Jez) reminding me there is an election on Thursday. It says the election is important. It allows me help to find my polling station and suggests I make a plan for when I vote. NO WHERE does it suggest I vote Remain.
I think we are seeing this in a partisan light. I think the Leave side is coming across as thoroughly mendacious.
They're saying things a lot of people believe - Khan, Davidson and Grady pointing out they are wrong, even if they are correct to point that out, won't stop people thinking that.
I honestly think Jez has done his best to throw this election and so it continues with small things like this. He is transparently for Leave, in just the same way that his friend Kelvin Hopkins is. Jez hasnt changed his mind about anything since puberty. The suprising thing is that he has effectively shut up the Labour establishment on their only big cause left. The man is in danger of becoming a legend.
I honestly think Jez has done his best to throw this election and so it continues with small things like this. He is transparently for Leave, in just the same way that his friend Kelvin Hopkins is. Jez hasnt changed his mind about anything since puberty. The suprising thing is that he has effectively shut up the Labour establishment on their only big cause left. The man is in danger of becoming a legend.
Labour Leave has been great. Corbyn probably wishes he was leading it.
Davidson is quite good, although her constant "Boris.... Boris...." is irritating.
I'm beginning to think she's trying to piss him off - she's saying it in a calm tone so, she'd hope, won't come off as too irritating to the audience, she's not trying to shout him down, and for someone who talks over people all the time, he sounded annoyed during his 'Haggis!' line.
Remain going for the "no turning back" line again and again.
As a Leaver, I find that quite reassuring, tbh. I'm more worries that some pretext to keep us in the EU will be found even in the event of a Brexit vote.
I have just had an email from the Labour party (i paid 3 quid to vote for Jez) reminding me there is an election on Thursday. It says the election is important. It allows me help to find my polling station and suggests I make a plan for when I vote. NO WHERE does it suggest I vote Remain.
Well don't then. QED.
Suggests turnout is seen as the no.1 objective?
Or they don't really give a damn as long as the Tories tear themselves apart.
I think we are seeing this in a partisan light. I think the Leave side is coming across as thoroughly mendacious.
They're saying things a lot of people believe - Khan, Davidson and Grady pointing out they are wrong, even if they are correct to point that out, won't stop people thinking that.
Sure - but they are lying. That's how it comes across to me. Hence my point about us all watching through partisan eyes.
Interesting clash and we'll all react according to our prejudices. The Leavers in the audience are much more vocal than the Remainers. Boris is the biggest figure but totally Marmite - powerful speaker but shambolic. Davidson is much the most forceful Remainer. Khan and Stuart fairly evenly matched on the Labour side.
Leadsom has an irritating mock-posh voice (apologies to those who disagree!), O'Grady not used to contested debate - they're both weaker than the others and seem marginalised.
But what's striking if one takes a step back is how both sides keep circling round one slogan. The Leavers on Take back control and the Remainers on Don't risk it.
I think we are seeing this in a partisan light. I think the Leave side is coming across as thoroughly mendacious.
No, FREEDOM!!! - will always win emotional debates.
STAY IN AN ANNOYING TRADING BLOC CUM SUPERSTATE!!! - not so good.
A post that is 100% about your prejudices and 0% about the debate.
As a citizen I don't see that I will be any more or less 'free' inside or outside the EU. The only people who will gain some freedom from leaving the EU appear to be mostly right-wing politicians, which I don't think is going to make me personally feel any more free...
I think middle class will break heavily for remain, and very high turnout - the B group (there will be more people in the A group willing to vote leave as they are less worried about short term economic risks or may gain more from Brexit than typical PAYE professionals)
The working class will indeed break for Brexit but I don't think turnout will be massively up from GE. Once you make a habit of not voting it's hard to get out of.
Youth will turnout for remain at a slightly higher level than GE, cancelling out the working class effect.
Scots turnout strong remain but low turnout.
Oldies will stick with leave but may see a swing back to status quo dampening the leave margin (risk averse lends is going to kick in)
The key group is women, I think women will win it for remain. Risk averse and more likely to focus on details like economic risk, house prices, etc. anecdote alert: My mum is very typical Tory voter - right wing, wants low taxes, voted for thatcher. She's voting remain because she does not either love nor hate the EU and doesn't want to take the risk. My father is the same profile but wants to take the risk regardless for immigration and sovereignty. Women will swing it for remain, 52-48.
I think you will be wrong about a low turnout in Scotland, but I think you will be proved correct about women voters breaking for Remain just as they did in the Indy Ref because of the economic risks.
I think we are seeing this in a partisan light. I think the Leave side is coming across as thoroughly mendacious.
They're saying things a lot of people believe - Khan, Davidson and Grady pointing out they are wrong, even if they are correct to point that out, won't stop people thinking that.
Sure - but they are lying. That's how it comes across to me. Hence my point about us all watching through partisan eyes.
But that's my point too - they come across as lying to you. They won't to people who are already Leave, even if they are lying. If someone is a waverer they don't like the EU much (if they did, they'd already be for Remain_ - now obviously I cannot put myself entirely in their shoes, but if someone does not like the EU, they might perceive them as lying, but I think playing to their prejudices about the EU is more likely.
Interesting clash and we'll all react according to our prejudices. The Leavers in the audience are much more vocal than the Remainers. Boris is the biggest figure but totally Marmite - powerful speaker but shambolic. Davidson is much the most forceful Remainer. Khan and Stuart fairly evenly matched on the Labour side.
Leadsom has an irritating mock-posh voice (apologies to those who disagree!), O'Grady not used to contested debate - they're both weaker than the others and seem marginalised.
But what's striking if one takes a step back is how both sides keep circling round one slogan. The Leavers on Take back control and the Remainers on Don't risk it.
Presumably both slogans have been focus-grouped to death.
Just a thought.. The economy is supposed to be Remain's strong card.
Given the last week, immigration could be dangerous for Leave tonight. Then again, any reference to Cox by Remain is a potential banana skin.
If there is a Cox effect, and the latest polls moving to Leave prove there probably isn't, it would only work I suspect as a subtle influencer - any attempt to bring her up in such a way would be seen as linking the Leavers on the stage with her death, and even if some Remainer somewhere would do that, the one's on the stage would be suicide.
"In short, we are confident that it will be business as usual - the RateSetter market is well positioned to thrive whatever the outcome of the referendum."
I think we are seeing this in a partisan light. I think the Leave side is coming across as thoroughly mendacious.
They're saying things a lot of people believe - Khan, Davidson and Grady pointing out they are wrong, even if they are correct to point that out, won't stop people thinking that.
Sure - but they are lying. That's how it comes across to me. Hence my point about us all watching through partisan eyes.
But that's my point too - they come across as lying to you. They won't to people who are already Leave, even if they are lying. If someone is a waverer they don't like the EU much (if they did, they'd already be for Remain_ - now obviously I cannot put myself entirely in their shoes, but if someone does not like the EU, they might perceive them as lying, but I think playing to their prejudices about the EU is more likely.
Yep. My only point is that we are all watching through partisan eyes.
This is a shoo-in for LEAVE, but I think that's because they have all the soundbites and all the emotions.
Will they win?
No.
Probably.
What you need to ask yourself is, do you believe? Finally I believe.
Yes. In the last couple of days I've finally, terminally decided. It's LEAVE.
I cannot look at myself in the mirror if I vote REMAIN.
I'm slightly surprised. I thought I would waver and haver, but essentially I've gone from 60/40 LEAVE to 100/0 LEAVE
Me too. I've been critical of both sides and done the intellectual crap. Finally I think fuck it. This is the right thing to do. (And this is a cracking wine by the way).
Zingers from Farron and Wollaston - better than the main Remain speakers so far.
To be honest, I don't listen to either - think our partisan eyes are right. Farron makes me concentrate on his head wobbling, Wollaston makes me wonder when Harriet Harman mk II will leave the Tory party.
This is a shoo-in for LEAVE, but I think that's because they have all the soundbites and all the emotions.
Will they win?
No.
Probably.
What you need to ask yourself is, do you believe? Finally I believe.
Yes. In the last couple of days I've finally, terminally decided. It's LEAVE.
I cannot look at myself in the mirror if I vote REMAIN.
I'm slightly surprised. I thought I would waver and haver, but essentially I've gone from 60/40 LEAVE to 100/0 LEAVE
Me too. I've been critical of both sides and done the intellectual crap. Finally I think fuck it. This is the right thing to do. (And this is a cracking wine by the way).
Me too. I've been committed to voting Leave for a couple of weeks. I was tilting towards Remain a few months back but now 100% Leave.
I've found the Remain campaign pathetic. No inspiration; no positivity. Just shite and sneering, like the EU.
Just took herself, who was watching the debate, a cup of tea and caught sight of Ruth Davidson doing finger pointing and being very shouty. Total turn-off for me, cannot abide that sort of behaviour. As I left the room Herself was changing channels to watch something else.
I am sure I have been told that Davidson was a good and engaging politician, a potential Conservative leader at Westminster. Well, you only get one chance to make a first impression and that was her's for me. Shouty, bossy, woman who likes to point fingers and cannot engage in reasonable debate - file under forget.
I've been tipping back toward remain in the last few days. But partisan stuff like "project hate" from Sadiq Khan just seems to bat away people's legitimate concerns regarding immigration. Tips me back towards leave.
Public performances can be so rough on people - Grady looks panicked. Now, that's my hated word of this campaign, everything a side does is a sign of their 'panic' apparently, and I don't know that she is, but she just looks worried.
Leadsom looks emotionless, (Oh, and another 'I'm a mum' moment, I was forgetting) which can seem more rational.
I note though that disdain for experts doesn't apply for Leave when an expert is on their side, how curious.
Comments
He is transparently for Leave, in just the same way that his friend Kelvin Hopkins is. Jez hasnt changed his mind about anything since puberty.
The suprising thing is that he has effectively shut up the Labour establishment on their only big cause left. The man is in danger of becoming a legend.
Whilst shitting himself that most working class Labour voters actually do.
Leadsom has an irritating mock-posh voice (apologies to those who disagree!), O'Grady not used to contested debate - they're both weaker than the others and seem marginalised.
But what's striking if one takes a step back is how both sides keep circling round one slogan. The Leavers on Take back control and the Remainers on Don't risk it.
As a citizen I don't see that I will be any more or less 'free' inside or outside the EU. The only people who will gain some freedom from leaving the EU appear to be mostly right-wing politicians, which I don't think is going to make me personally feel any more free...
*(Yes, I've actually been told this)
PS - the football channels is where you will find the electorate.
So long as no one says something incendiarily dreadful that the press pick up on it dosent really matter much what happens in this debate.
Just watching some mid-debate BBC explanation about the EU. Good grief! Did they use Newsround to produce it or something? .
@chrisdeerin: So everyone's clear, it's not synthetic https://t.co/f00Z2uAzFw
"In short, we are confident that it will be business as usual - the RateSetter market is well positioned to thrive whatever the outcome of the referendum."
'Lol, Farron.'
Who ?
I've found the Remain campaign pathetic. No inspiration; no positivity. Just shite and sneering, like the EU.
Stuart comes across as very plausible though.
I am sure I have been told that Davidson was a good and engaging politician, a potential Conservative leader at Westminster. Well, you only get one chance to make a first impression and that was her's for me. Shouty, bossy, woman who likes to point fingers and cannot engage in reasonable debate - file under forget.
The dope on the ropes strategy on immigration neutralises negative accusations.
I thought, s*** this isnt a game anymore it might actually happen. Am I doing the right thing.
100% leave by the next day.
Leadsom looks emotionless, (Oh, and another 'I'm a mum' moment, I was forgetting) which can seem more rational.
I note though that disdain for experts doesn't apply for Leave when an expert is on their side, how curious.