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Are we rushing to premature conclusions about the latest COVID figures? – politicalbetting.com

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  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. W, that's appalling. Absolutely appalling. Unforgivable, perhaps.

    It's meagre*. And they spell it the American way! Shameful.

    Yes, but how do I read the rest? :smile:
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    Which would be fine - were Brexit the cause. RochdalePioneer and myself have pointed out for ages that the issue is lack of HGV drivers (and more recently a lack of staff due to pings from covid)
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    With respect that is nonsense

    The pingdemic has caused the most almighty disruption and in my opinion is the cause of Boris's fall in the polls and was avoidable, especially as they are lifting the restrictions on the 16th August

    Not everything is Brexit no matter how much you wish it to be
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    edited July 2021

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    You are in Sweden, I think.

    Can you provide evidence that this alleged problem really exists to any significant extent?

    It's the easiest thing in the world to take a photo just before they restock ... that is mainly what happened in April 2020.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    TOPPING said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour MP Rosie Duffield is investigated by her party for liking tweet that said trans people were 'mostly heterosexuals cosplaying'

    Canterbury MP Rosie Duffield, 50, is facing a backlash from activists
    LGBT+ Labour pressured Sir Keir Starmer to remove the whip from Ms Duffield"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9832829/Labour-MP-Rosie-Duffield-investigated-party-liking-tweet.html

    The tweet which Rosie liked doesn’t actually mention trans people directly.

    I’m so sick of hearing about how “queer” has been reclaimed. I had that word spit in my face as recently as 2018. And look at WHO is reclaiming it? Mostly heterosexuals cosplaying as the opposite sex and as “gay”.

    It’s possible to read “heterosexuals cosplaying as the opposite sex” as a slur on trans people I suppose, but it’s also possible to read it otherwise.
    Hasn't that, or something like it, been an issue in several places? 'Transgender men' being allowed into women only spaces and so on, and then abusing?
    I have to believe that those instances are vanishingly small and should not be used to derail any sensible debate about trans issues.
    I hope you are right, and that my memory is at fault. However there are some very unpleasant, and devious, people about.
    I also think that people who look, or feel, one gender but are really another should be allowed, indeed encouraged, to live their best lives. As should we all.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    I did that trip as a kid back in the 70s, in less than perfect weather, and was utterly terrified.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Summer 1940 weather was exceptionally good, however, unlike our return crossing in 1944
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. W, I'm afraid I have no idea.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    So pleased to see Primož Roglič winning gold in the ITT. That solidifies the European Union lead in the medal tallies.

    Sorry? The highest EU team is France, who are 8th.
    Huh? The EU has won 63 medals so far, including 16 golds, easily beating China, Japan, England etc.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited July 2021
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    You are in Sweden, I think.

    Can you provide evidence that this alleged problem really exists to any significant extent?

    It's the easiest thing in the world to take a photo just before they restock ... that is mainly what happened in April 2020.
    I would just comment that I have had a weekly Asda order delivered since 2018 and I have not experienced any shortages on their deliveries

    I was in Asda yesterday pm and there were some low stocked shelves but it did not seem a problem or even especially noticeable
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    I liked the time they gamed it with the entire RN and RAF going to the pub for the actual invasion. The Germans sustained 30% losses on the Channel crossing, all by themselves.........
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Britain Elects @BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 40% (-1)
    LAB: 34% (-)
    LDEM: 10% (+2)
    GRN: 4% (-1)

    via @SavantaComRes, 23 - 25 Jul Chgs. w/ 18 Jul


    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1420305258060959745?s=20
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    But you don't have government-driven pingdemonium, either.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited July 2021
    LDs a bit bouncy

    Savanta ComRes
    @SavantaComRes
    Police cars revolving lightNEW Westminster Voting Intention

    Con 40 (-1)
    Lab 34 (=)
    LDM 10 (+2)
    GRN 4 (-1)
    SNP 4 (=)
    Other 7 (=)

    23-25 July, 2,161 UK adults

    (Changes from 16-18 July)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    You are in Sweden, I think.

    Can you provide evidence that this alleged problem really exists to any significant extent?

    It's the easiest thing in the world to take a photo just before they restock ... that is mainly what happened in April 2020.
    I would just comment that I have had a weekly Asda order delivered since 2018 and I have not experienced any shortages on their deliveries

    I was in Asda yesterday pm and there were some low stocked shelves but it did not seem a problem or even especially noticeable
    Surely the point of having a weekly delivery is that you don't actually have to go there?
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    IanB2 said:

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Summer 1940 weather was exceptionally good, however, unlike our return crossing in 1944
    Summer 1940 would have meant a crossing opposed by the RAF and RN. The plan was to take out the RAF so that the Luftwaffe could then deal with the RN, meaning autumn 1940 would have been the earliest they could set off.

    Obviously the RAF proved a bit harder to neutralise than planned…
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    F1: weather forecast currently indicating thundery showers on Saturday.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    IanB2 said:

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Summer 1940 weather was exceptionally good, however, unlike our return crossing in 1944
    The RN plan was to get inside the barge convoys with the destroyers (to make shooting back problematic) and then run around at 35 knots sinking the barges with their wash....
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    What empty shelves ?

    What do you know about ASDA or Tesco or Morrisons living in Sweden ?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    So pleased to see Primož Roglič winning gold in the ITT. That solidifies the European Union lead in the medal tallies.

    Sorry? The highest EU team is France, who are 8th.
    Huh? The EU has won 63 medals so far, including 16 golds, easily beating China, Japan, England etc.
    The EU is competing no more than Scotland is.
    Or the UK..
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    On the channel, two historical things I picked up on recently.

    Mine barriers laid across the Channel to block uboats.

    That all of the German undersea telegraph cables in the channel were cut within hours of the start of WW1. Exactly the same basic strategy as WW2. Make them use radio.
    https://warandsecurity.com/2014/08/05/britain-cuts-german-cable-communications-5-august-1914/
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    IanB2 said:

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Summer 1940 weather was exceptionally good, however, unlike our return crossing in 1944
    The RN plan was to get inside the barge convoys with the destroyers (to make shooting back problematic) and then run around at 35 knots sinking the barges with their wash....
    With radar we could have lined up the entire population of southern England on the beaches and got them to jump into the sea at the same moment, creating a killer tsunami to sink the barges.....
  • So pleased to see Primož Roglič winning gold in the ITT. That solidifies the European Union lead in the medal tallies.

    Sorry? The highest EU team is France, who are 8th.
    Huh? The EU has won 63 medals so far, including 16 golds, easily beating China, Japan, England etc.
    How many would they have if the US entered its states, or China its provinces, so each had more teams than the EU?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited July 2021
    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    You are in Sweden, I think.

    Can you provide evidence that this alleged problem really exists to any significant extent?

    It's the easiest thing in the world to take a photo just before they restock ... that is mainly what happened in April 2020.
    I would just comment that I have had a weekly Asda order delivered since 2018 and I have not experienced any shortages on their deliveries

    I was in Asda yesterday pm and there were some low stocked shelves but it did not seem a problem or even especially noticeable
    Surely the point of having a weekly delivery is that you don't actually have to go there?
    It is our sons wedding this Saturday, and we have a garden lunch buffet coming up on Friday and to be honest with my advancing years, I forget to order items
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    You are in Sweden, I think.

    Can you provide evidence that this alleged problem really exists to any significant extent?

    It's the easiest thing in the world to take a photo just before they restock ... that is mainly what happened in April 2020.
    The flaked parmesan shortage is causing havoc in North London, I understand. Some individuals had to buy a grater!
    And while a joke it shows what happens when there are issues - products of secondary importance (flaked parmesan) or not sent out as substitutes are available.

    As John Bull on twitter pointed out the thing to watch out for is beer selection being reduced which has been an issue for a while in Morrisons.

    It's not so much an issue at Booths because their beer selection is something people actually go there for.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    MattW said:

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    On the channel, two historical things I picked up on recently.

    Mine barriers laid across the Channel to block uboats.

    That all of the German undersea telegraph cables in the channel were cut within hours of the start of WW1. Exactly the same basic strategy as WW2. Make them use radio.
    https://warandsecurity.com/2014/08/05/britain-cuts-german-cable-communications-5-august-1914/
    Not as mad as the plan to string a net between Dover and Calais. We still have one of the towers built for that scheme, out in the sea being used as a lighthouse
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    edited July 2021

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    You are in Sweden, I think.

    Can you provide evidence that this alleged problem really exists to any significant extent?

    It's the easiest thing in the world to take a photo just before they restock ... that is mainly what happened in April 2020.
    The flaked parmesan shortage is causing havoc in North London, I understand. Some individuals had to buy a grater!
    Pre-flaked parmesan is for fakers.

    My favourite place for good value cheese is the cheese auctions at the end of country shows to get rid of the cheese entries. But it can come in 20kg blocks.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285

    So pleased to see Primož Roglič winning gold in the ITT. That solidifies the European Union lead in the medal tallies.

    Sorry? The highest EU team is France, who are 8th.
    Huh? The EU has won 63 medals so far, including 16 golds, easily beating China, Japan, England etc.
    The EU is not a single team. As pointed out earlier, other multinational groupings are available for comparisons which are just as valid.
    Oh, and there is no England team either.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,693

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    I liked the time they gamed it with the entire RN and RAF going to the pub for the actual invasion. The Germans sustained 30% losses on the Channel crossing, all by themselves.........
    I've long been tempted to write a novel about an invasion (after I walked around a very atmospheric gun battery on the south coast and imagined a fleet of invasion ships coming across). Having read up on it, IMV to make it realistic a number of things would have to change.

    For one thing, the Germans would have had to wanted to invade England for several years; enough time to build a proper invasion fleet of landing craft, torpedo boats and other craft to harry the Royal Navy. Winning the Battle of Britain would also have been very important, and spies/saboteurs within the UK would have helped. There were others.

    I've got these changes written down somewhere, as the starting point for the writing. without them I couldn't really have the major battles I wanted on the mainland.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    F1: weather forecast currently indicating thundery showers on Saturday.

    So we can give the Home Guard the weekend off, then.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    IanB2 said:

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Summer 1940 weather was exceptionally good, however, unlike our return crossing in 1944
    Summer 1940 would have meant a crossing opposed by the RAF and RN. The plan was to take out the RAF so that the Luftwaffe could then deal with the RN, meaning autumn 1940 would have been the earliest they could set off.

    Obviously the RAF proved a bit harder to neutralise than planned…
    The RAF had a plan if "defeated" in the Battle of Britain. Northern England was out of range for much of the Luftwaffe. So in the event of a defeat - pull the fighter back to fields in the North.

    In the event of an invasion after that, the fighters would have still been there, flying from fields outside the range of the German fighters (until they established based in the UK).

    The Luftwaffe also found that they were rubbish at hitting ships. Even slow moving merchant ships. Even when there was no opposition. This led to them training to do so - which came in handy in Med. But that would have been too late for Sealion.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    tlg86 said:

    We have been here before, of course, only for things to have to be reversed with the relaxation in the rules leading to more cases.

    Wrong. We have not seen a fall in cases without a lockdown of some description.

    This is key. It suggests non-lockdown ways to deal with future cases, barring some super variant.

    Is it effective herd immunity under the pre-19 July restrictions?

    Is it people self-restricting a bit in response to rising cases?

    Is it closing schools?

    If the first, then we're not that far off herd immunity levels and after perhaps another peak we'll get there.

    If it's the second, that will kick in again likely if cases rise fast (so no more legal restrictions needed)

    If it's the third we've got several weeks for more vaccinations in adults, lowering the possible R and will (in England) get warning from Scotland and can review the under 18 vaccine policy if needed.
    Is this the kind of ”warning from Scotland” you were referring to?

    ‘ Covid Scotland: Tourist hotspot virus fears as Highland cases up 1000% in six weeks’

    “… fears that the easing of restrictions is linked to the surge in infections as tourists flock to the area.

    … The Highlands has generally had lower cases throughout the pandemic but has suffered greatly in recent weeks – with many blaming the easing of lockdown restrictions and the start of the school holidays.

    … At the start of July, cases were so high in the area that the biggest hospital in the Highlands, Raigmore, was placed into a rare “Code Black” status.

    … “Incoming visitors particularly from higher prevalence areas will of course have also contributed.”

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/homenews/19470557.covid-scotland-tourist-hotspot-virus-fears-highland-cases-1000-six-weeks/
    My wife was born in Raigmore.

    This seems to me yet another example of the futility of early and prolonged lockdowns. They protected the Highlands earlier in the pandemic but simply make them more vulnerable now. Since tourism is their largest single industry there is no way that they can escape this. People who criticise Boris for being slow, late, whatever, really need to come to terms with the fact that stopping the virus at one point in time does not make it go away.
    StuartDickson already made this point, I think, but there will be many people in the Highlands who will still be alive next year thanks to having been vaccinated before their first exposure to Covid.

    In a world without vaccinations, lockdowns buy only some time to improve treatments and prevent health-service collapse. In a world of rapily developed vaccines, they will have saved many lives. A fire rated door doesn't save your life by itself if you're trapped in a burning building, but if the fire service are battling their way in then it could absolutely be the difference between living and dying.
    There is also a very important issue in the H&Is - the often huge distances (compounded by ferry trips etc) to hospitals. So they are all the more vulnerable. The prevention of serious outbreaks in the first stages was actually a very good thing.
    I have lots of highlanders in my social media streams, and I can assure you that they know who to credit and who to blame in this scenario. Boris Johnson’s name is dirt.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    I liked the time they gamed it with the entire RN and RAF going to the pub for the actual invasion. The Germans sustained 30% losses on the Channel crossing, all by themselves.........
    I've long been tempted to write a novel about an invasion (after I walked around a very atmospheric gun battery on the south coast and imagined a fleet of invasion ships coming across). Having read up on it, IMV to make it realistic a number of things would have to change.

    For one thing, the Germans would have had to wanted to invade England for several years; enough time to build a proper invasion fleet of landing craft, torpedo boats and other craft to harry the Royal Navy. Winning the Battle of Britain would also have been very important, and spies/saboteurs within the UK would have helped. There were others.

    I've got these changes written down somewhere, as the starting point for the writing. without them I couldn't really have the major battles I wanted on the mainland.
    Combat drop tanks.....
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908
    edited July 2021

    I have lots of highlanders in my social media streams, and I can assure you that they know who to credit and who to blame in this scenario. Boris Johnson’s name is dirt.

    People YOU follow on social media don't like Boris Johnson? That's a shock.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    IanB2 said:

    Selebian said:

    Nice. Also great to see the BBC again using the standard SI unit of almost anything, the double decker bus (this time for mass)
    Well, you can't really weigh Wales.
    Not on ordinary bathroom scales, no.

    You need a Wales weigh station.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    tlg86 said:

    We have been here before, of course, only for things to have to be reversed with the relaxation in the rules leading to more cases.

    Wrong. We have not seen a fall in cases without a lockdown of some description.

    This is key. It suggests non-lockdown ways to deal with future cases, barring some super variant.

    Is it effective herd immunity under the pre-19 July restrictions?

    Is it people self-restricting a bit in response to rising cases?

    Is it closing schools?

    If the first, then we're not that far off herd immunity levels and after perhaps another peak we'll get there.

    If it's the second, that will kick in again likely if cases rise fast (so no more legal restrictions needed)

    If it's the third we've got several weeks for more vaccinations in adults, lowering the possible R and will (in England) get warning from Scotland and can review the under 18 vaccine policy if needed.
    Is this the kind of ”warning from Scotland” you were referring to?

    ‘ Covid Scotland: Tourist hotspot virus fears as Highland cases up 1000% in six weeks’

    “… fears that the easing of restrictions is linked to the surge in infections as tourists flock to the area.

    … The Highlands has generally had lower cases throughout the pandemic but has suffered greatly in recent weeks – with many blaming the easing of lockdown restrictions and the start of the school holidays.

    … At the start of July, cases were so high in the area that the biggest hospital in the Highlands, Raigmore, was placed into a rare “Code Black” status.

    … “Incoming visitors particularly from higher prevalence areas will of course have also contributed.”

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/homenews/19470557.covid-scotland-tourist-hotspot-virus-fears-highland-cases-1000-six-weeks/
    My wife was born in Raigmore.

    This seems to me yet another example of the futility of early and prolonged lockdowns. They protected the Highlands earlier in the pandemic but simply make them more vulnerable now. Since tourism is their largest single industry there is no way that they can escape this. People who criticise Boris for being slow, late, whatever, really need to come to terms with the fact that stopping the virus at one point in time does not make it go away.
    Not following you there David. Surely protecting the Highlands early in the pandemic bought time: time to get more vaccines in more arms. Hindering the progress of the virus has got to be good, and that is where Boris was slow, late and negligent.

    Surely the key message to take from this is: please please please don’t holiday in the Highlands yet!
    So what are they supposed to live on for the next year given tourism makes up so much of the Highlands’ economy? Small glasses of whisky and vaccines?

    That’s the downside...
    That’s what taxation is for. HMG is good at taking but shite at giving.
    I think that in fact this would be a devolved matter.

    But of course, the Scottish Government, not using their tax powers while funnelling money to their supporters, are the polar opposite of what you’ve described. Shite at taking but good at giving.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    IanB2 said:

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Summer 1940 weather was exceptionally good, however, unlike our return crossing in 1944
    Summer 1940 would have meant a crossing opposed by the RAF and RN. The plan was to take out the RAF so that the Luftwaffe could then deal with the RN, meaning autumn 1940 would have been the earliest they could set off.

    Obviously the RAF proved a bit harder to neutralise than planned…
    The RAF had a plan if "defeated" in the Battle of Britain. Northern England was out of range for much of the Luftwaffe. So in the event of a defeat - pull the fighter back to fields in the North.

    In the event of an invasion after that, the fighters would have still been there, flying from fields outside the range of the German fighters (until they established based in the UK).

    The Luftwaffe also found that they were rubbish at hitting ships. Even slow moving merchant ships. Even when there was no opposition. This led to them training to do so - which came in handy in Med. But that would have been too late for Sealion.
    Yet it was mostly aircraft that eventually dealt with the submarines, which are even harder to hit
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    So pleased to see Primož Roglič winning gold in the ITT. That solidifies the European Union lead in the medal tallies.

    Ah but the English-Speaking Peoples (© Winston Churchill) have 23 Golds to the EU's 16. Adding together the Commonwealth is left as an exercise for the reader.
    I’m sure the Americans will be delighted to hear that 4 July 1776 was all in vain. The English still think they own the place.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,693
    MattW said:

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    On the channel, two historical things I picked up on recently.

    Mine barriers laid across the Channel to block uboats.

    That all of the German undersea telegraph cables in the channel were cut within hours of the start of WW1. Exactly the same basic strategy as WW2. Make them use radio.
    https://warandsecurity.com/2014/08/05/britain-cuts-german-cable-communications-5-august-1914/
    One podcast I listened to put the allies winning World War I down to the cutting of the cables in the first days of the war. It meant the Germans had to use radio, and that allowed the Zimmerman telegram to be intercepted, and helped lead the US to war.

    In the Cold War the Americans and UK tried intercepting communications in Berlin using a tunnel. Interestingly the Russians knew about the tunnel immediately due to George Bake's treachery, but they did not stop using the communication cables because they wanted to protect Blake ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    I liked the time they gamed it with the entire RN and RAF going to the pub for the actual invasion. The Germans sustained 30% losses on the Channel crossing, all by themselves.........
    I've long been tempted to write a novel about an invasion (after I walked around a very atmospheric gun battery on the south coast and imagined a fleet of invasion ships coming across). Having read up on it, IMV to make it realistic a number of things would have to change.

    For one thing, the Germans would have had to wanted to invade England for several years; enough time to build a proper invasion fleet of landing craft, torpedo boats and other craft to harry the Royal Navy. Winning the Battle of Britain would also have been very important, and spies/saboteurs within the UK would have helped. There were others.

    I've got these changes written down somewhere, as the starting point for the writing. without them I couldn't really have the major battles I wanted on the mainland.
    Around 60 years ago I read a story like that, serialised in a newspaper. Think it was my then landlords Express. Can't recall how the invasion got started, but I can recall something about the Home Guard being treated as spies and shot on sight and the final surrender of the Nazi commander in the ruins of Rye.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Another Scottish success story.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285

    So pleased to see Primož Roglič winning gold in the ITT. That solidifies the European Union lead in the medal tallies.

    Ah but the English-Speaking Peoples (© Winston Churchill) have 23 Golds to the EU's 16. Adding together the Commonwealth is left as an exercise for the reader.
    I’m sure the Americans will be delighted to hear that 4 July 1776 was all in vain. The English still think they own the place.
    So you think the EU is a empire? Interesting.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    4 of my son's friends went clubbing in London last week as a post school treat. 3 of them are now confirmed as having caught Covid, one quite badly and the fourth is self isolating. Its a pretty small sample but it does suggest that the opening of nightclubs is going to be a challenge to the figures. All of them had had 1 vaccine but in some cases too recently for it to give much protection.

    The original hope was that the vast majority of those who were fully vaxxed would not catch Covid at all. That does not seem to be happening. They do catch it but the symptoms are much less severe and death is almost unheard of. Whilst this is good news it does mean that we are not achieving the level of herd immunity from vaccines that we once hoped. It also means we have a lot of mainly minor cases to come.

    We are probably 2-3 days away from hospital admissions turning negative on a week to week basis too. The question is whether there will be sufficient potential victims left for a fourth wave in the autumn. I think, given the above, there will be, unfortunately.

    Yes, I think that nightclubs are the main potential spreading events. It will be interesting to see if much comes out of Lattitude and other music festivals. Indoor music venues too come the autumn.

    I agree though about vaccinated folk. While obviously it gives major protection against hospitalisation, the effect on spreading seems much more modest.
    Son and girlfriend are going to London on Monday. They won't be going clubbing but they are worried about the tube. Hopefully it continues to be quieter. They are seriously considering using Uber instead given the risks. They are a sensible couple with their heads screwed on but it is going to be a worry.
    Unless they need to travel at rush hour for some reason, particularly the morning rush hour, the tubes are not crowded and therefore feel safe. If still worried, then changing carriages every couple of stops reduces your chance of prolonged exposure to anyone infected. And as Foxy says London is a good walking city, so they should check how long the walks would take instead.
    I'm not so sure with Delta that you need the x minute exposure that was true of other variants.

    A decent mask and staying in the same carriage is probably a better risk (and less hassle).
    Oh definitely wear a mask. Surprisingly few people go for FFP2 or N95 but they are less than £1 each from amazon, hardly see anyone in Foxys recommended FFP3 but would give further protection still.
    Its amazing how many people are voluntarily wearing the blue flimsy masks, very often incorrectly.
    I really don't see any point now in the silly blue masks, or cloth ones.

    Either get a decent FFP2/N95/FFP3 mask, or don't bother wearing a mask at all.

    Personally my choice is the latter, but I respect whatever choice others choose to make for themselves.
    You've just said the blue ones and the cloth ones are silly and people should either get a proper mask or not bother. How is this respecting whatever choice others make for themselves?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    NEW: A large real world study (over one million people) of AstraZeneca & Pfizer vaccines looking at blood clotting disorders

    Confirms safety profiles of both vaccines are similar

    You can read the study (Lancet preprint) here: https://bit.ly/3zJnz5r


    https://twitter.com/SkyScottBeasley/status/1420273297636433923?s=20
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    You are in Sweden, I think.

    Can you provide evidence that this alleged problem really exists to any significant extent?

    It's the easiest thing in the world to take a photo just before they restock ... that is mainly what happened in April 2020.
    The flaked parmesan shortage is causing havoc in North London, I understand. Some individuals had to buy a grater!
    And @Leon still somehow managed even after buying a grater to be quite ungrateful.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    edited July 2021

    MattW said:

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    On the channel, two historical things I picked up on recently.

    Mine barriers laid across the Channel to block uboats.

    That all of the German undersea telegraph cables in the channel were cut within hours of the start of WW1. Exactly the same basic strategy as WW2. Make them use radio.
    https://warandsecurity.com/2014/08/05/britain-cuts-german-cable-communications-5-august-1914/
    One podcast I listened to put the allies winning World War I down to the cutting of the cables in the first days of the war. It meant the Germans had to use radio, and that allowed the Zimmerman telegram to be intercepted, and helped lead the US to war.

    In the Cold War the Americans and UK tried intercepting communications in Berlin using a tunnel. Interestingly the Russians knew about the tunnel immediately due to George Bake's treachery, but they did not stop using the communication cables because they wanted to protect Blake ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold
    There's a similar story about the Enigma machine (or similar) and the Doodlebugs. They were 'misdirected' away from Central London.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    glw said:

    I have lots of highlanders in my social media streams, and I can assure you that they know who to credit and who to blame in this scenario. Boris Johnson’s name is dirt.

    People YOU follow on social media don't like Boris Johnson? That's a shock.
    Yep, in an alternative universe there's a Scottish twitter awash with love for BJ.
    However in this one even Scottish Unionists know that mentions of BJ are counterproductive.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    I liked the time they gamed it with the entire RN and RAF going to the pub for the actual invasion. The Germans sustained 30% losses on the Channel crossing, all by themselves.........
    I've long been tempted to write a novel about an invasion (after I walked around a very atmospheric gun battery on the south coast and imagined a fleet of invasion ships coming across). Having read up on it, IMV to make it realistic a number of things would have to change.

    For one thing, the Germans would have had to wanted to invade England for several years; enough time to build a proper invasion fleet of landing craft, torpedo boats and other craft to harry the Royal Navy. Winning the Battle of Britain would also have been very important, and spies/saboteurs within the UK would have helped. There were others.

    I've got these changes written down somewhere, as the starting point for the writing. without them I couldn't really have the major battles I wanted on the mainland.
    There are alternative invasion routes you should consider for your novel. One is from Norway to Scotland (which was also considered in the other direction for D-Day). More realistic would be to use paratroopers for the initial invasion and have them capture and secure a British port, which could then be used to land German reinforcements of troops and armour. This was a genuine fear, and the Admiralty had plans to destroy ports by scuttling ships, dumping coal, and blowing up facilities, had the Nazis been about to invade.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    What is the latest on the three (dodgy?) Indian-made AstraZeneca vaccine batches?

    My first jab was from one of these batches but my second wasn't.

    Should I be concerned?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    So pleased to see Primož Roglič winning gold in the ITT. That solidifies the European Union lead in the medal tallies.

    Sorry? The highest EU team is France, who are 8th.
    Huh? The EU has won 63 medals so far, including 16 golds, easily beating China, Japan, England etc.
    The EU is competing no more than Scotland is.
    Whatever happened to banter without taking it so seriously? I wonder if the same pedantry was made when Yorkshire were enjoying "finishing" 12th in the 2012 medal table. I doubt it, we have become more adversarial and divided since then.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    The Antarctic Current at the Drake Passage flows about 120 times the volume of all the rivers on Earth or something ridiculous. Every few years the USN puts a nuclear powered carrier through it to move it from the Atlantic to the Pacific or vice versa. Everybody involved waits with baited breath to see if their careers will survive the experience.

    Nobody at the Admiralty fancied it for HMS QE so they are turning her round when she gets to the Eastern Pacific.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    eek said:

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    Which would be fine - were Brexit the cause. RochdalePioneer and myself have pointed out for ages that the issue is lack of HGV drivers (and more recently a lack of staff due to pings from covid)
    Leaving the single market in HGV drivers wasn’t very bright.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    I liked the time they gamed it with the entire RN and RAF going to the pub for the actual invasion. The Germans sustained 30% losses on the Channel crossing, all by themselves.........
    I've long been tempted to write a novel about an invasion (after I walked around a very atmospheric gun battery on the south coast and imagined a fleet of invasion ships coming across). Having read up on it, IMV to make it realistic a number of things would have to change.

    For one thing, the Germans would have had to wanted to invade England for several years; enough time to build a proper invasion fleet of landing craft, torpedo boats and other craft to harry the Royal Navy. Winning the Battle of Britain would also have been very important, and spies/saboteurs within the UK would have helped. There were others.

    I've got these changes written down somewhere, as the starting point for the writing. without them I couldn't really have the major battles I wanted on the mainland.
    There are alternative invasion routes you should consider for your novel. One is from Norway to Scotland (which was also considered in the other direction for D-Day). More realistic would be to use paratroopers for the initial invasion and have them capture and secure a British port, which could then be used to land German reinforcements of troops and armour. This was a genuine fear, and the Admiralty had plans to destroy ports by scuttling ships, dumping coal, and blowing up facilities, had the Nazis been about to invade.
    IIRC, in the story I read, all those years ago, the Nazi's landed near Battle.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    As an aside, a chain was used to protect Byzantium from attack by sea for a long time, and it was pretty effective.

    Although rather less terrifying than Greek fire.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    I liked the time they gamed it with the entire RN and RAF going to the pub for the actual invasion. The Germans sustained 30% losses on the Channel crossing, all by themselves.........
    I've long been tempted to write a novel about an invasion (after I walked around a very atmospheric gun battery on the south coast and imagined a fleet of invasion ships coming across). Having read up on it, IMV to make it realistic a number of things would have to change.

    For one thing, the Germans would have had to wanted to invade England for several years; enough time to build a proper invasion fleet of landing craft, torpedo boats and other craft to harry the Royal Navy. Winning the Battle of Britain would also have been very important, and spies/saboteurs within the UK would have helped. There were others.

    I've got these changes written down somewhere, as the starting point for the writing. without them I couldn't really have the major battles I wanted on the mainland.
    There are alternative invasion routes you should consider for your novel. One is from Norway to Scotland (which was also considered in the other direction for D-Day). More realistic would be to use paratroopers for the initial invasion and have them capture and secure a British port, which could then be used to land German reinforcements of troops and armour. This was a genuine fear, and the Admiralty had plans to destroy ports by scuttling ships, dumping coal, and blowing up facilities, had the Nazis been about to invade.
    which port would they have gone for? Dover would be the obvious one as it’s the only one that was in range of German artillery, but at the same time being nestled under massive cliffs which could quickly have become gun platforms would have been an absolute bastard to hold.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    Rugby is not a proper sport. We've got a chance in the horse dancing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    Which would be fine - were Brexit the cause. RochdalePioneer and myself have pointed out for ages that the issue is lack of HGV drivers (and more recently a lack of staff due to pings from covid)
    Leaving the single market in HGV drivers wasn’t very bright.
    Well, you clearly have no truck with it.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    You are in Sweden, I think.

    Can you provide evidence that this alleged problem really exists to any significant extent?

    It's the easiest thing in the world to take a photo just before they restock ... that is mainly what happened in April 2020.
    The flaked parmesan shortage is causing havoc in North London, I understand. Some individuals had to buy a grater!
    And @Leon still somehow managed even after buying a grater to be quite ungrateful.
    The evening classes to teach us Londoners how to actually use a grater were not yet open.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    With respect that is nonsense

    The pingdemic has caused the most almighty disruption and in my opinion is the cause of Boris's fall in the polls and was avoidable, especially as they are lifting the restrictions on the 16th August

    Not everything is Brexit no matter how much you wish it to be
    And there you have it: big g goes full circle.

    Have a re-read of Animal Farm. The bit where the animals stare through the window at the end. You’ve transmogrified into that which you once despised.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Stocky said:

    What is the latest on the three (dodgy?) Indian-made AstraZeneca vaccine batches?

    My first jab was from one of these batches but my second wasn't.

    Should I be concerned?

    Only if travelling internationally.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    So pleased to see Primož Roglič winning gold in the ITT. That solidifies the European Union lead in the medal tallies.

    Sorry? The highest EU team is France, who are 8th.
    Huh? The EU has won 63 medals so far, including 16 golds, easily beating China, Japan, England etc.
    The EU is competing no more than Scotland is.
    Whatever happened to banter without taking it so seriously? I wonder if the same pedantry was made when Yorkshire were enjoying "finishing" 12th in the 2012 medal table. I doubt it, we have become more adversarial and divided since then.
    People like Dickson really do believe it. It won't be long until Ursula and other EU people are "jokingly" making these same comparisons. It's just a bit sad.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    MaxPB said:

    So pleased to see Primož Roglič winning gold in the ITT. That solidifies the European Union lead in the medal tallies.

    Sorry? The highest EU team is France, who are 8th.
    Huh? The EU has won 63 medals so far, including 16 golds, easily beating China, Japan, England etc.
    The EU is competing no more than Scotland is.
    Whatever happened to banter without taking it so seriously? I wonder if the same pedantry was made when Yorkshire were enjoying "finishing" 12th in the 2012 medal table. I doubt it, we have become more adversarial and divided since then.
    People like Dickson really do believe it. It won't be long until Ursula and other EU people are "jokingly" making these same comparisons. It's just a bit sad.
    It was a joke, something sports fans have done since the dawn of time.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    Rugby is not a proper sport. We've got a chance in the horse dancing.

    Go Fiji!!!!!!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,693

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    I liked the time they gamed it with the entire RN and RAF going to the pub for the actual invasion. The Germans sustained 30% losses on the Channel crossing, all by themselves.........
    I've long been tempted to write a novel about an invasion (after I walked around a very atmospheric gun battery on the south coast and imagined a fleet of invasion ships coming across). Having read up on it, IMV to make it realistic a number of things would have to change.

    For one thing, the Germans would have had to wanted to invade England for several years; enough time to build a proper invasion fleet of landing craft, torpedo boats and other craft to harry the Royal Navy. Winning the Battle of Britain would also have been very important, and spies/saboteurs within the UK would have helped. There were others.

    I've got these changes written down somewhere, as the starting point for the writing. without them I couldn't really have the major battles I wanted on the mainland.
    There are alternative invasion routes you should consider for your novel. One is from Norway to Scotland (which was also considered in the other direction for D-Day). More realistic would be to use paratroopers for the initial invasion and have them capture and secure a British port, which could then be used to land German reinforcements of troops and armour. This was a genuine fear, and the Admiralty had plans to destroy ports by scuttling ships, dumping coal, and blowing up facilities, had the Nazis been about to invade.
    Yes, they might make be interesting outlines. In the plot outline I have, the Kriegsmarine defeat the Royal Navy in the Channel, and it is a battle for the Home Fleet to fight its way down from Scarpa Flow. And yes, I have German paratroopers playing a major part.

    I have written some; from memory, the first scene is of a nineteen year old boy watching the German invasion fleet come in as planes bomb the battery he has volunteered in. One strand of the book follows him during the retreat and then the fightback. As I'm a modern sort of person, another strand is from the viewpoint of a German sailor who gets stranded on the mainland. And that's the part I have a problem with, as I found it very hard to write from that viewpoint ...

    I am not a writer (tm). :)
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    Which would be fine - were Brexit the cause. RochdalePioneer and myself have pointed out for ages that the issue is lack of HGV drivers (and more recently a lack of staff due to pings from covid)
    Leaving the single market in HGV drivers wasn’t very bright.
    Well, you clearly have no truck with it.
    It is a heavy load to bear.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    Stocky said:

    What is the latest on the three (dodgy?) Indian-made AstraZeneca vaccine batches?

    My first jab was from one of these batches but my second wasn't.

    Should I be concerned?

    Only if travelling internationally.
    Well, that's a huge problem then - I hope they sort this out.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    I liked the time they gamed it with the entire RN and RAF going to the pub for the actual invasion. The Germans sustained 30% losses on the Channel crossing, all by themselves.........
    I've long been tempted to write a novel about an invasion (after I walked around a very atmospheric gun battery on the south coast and imagined a fleet of invasion ships coming across). Having read up on it, IMV to make it realistic a number of things would have to change.

    For one thing, the Germans would have had to wanted to invade England for several years; enough time to build a proper invasion fleet of landing craft, torpedo boats and other craft to harry the Royal Navy. Winning the Battle of Britain would also have been very important, and spies/saboteurs within the UK would have helped. There were others.

    I've got these changes written down somewhere, as the starting point for the writing. without them I couldn't really have the major battles I wanted on the mainland.
    There are alternative invasion routes you should consider for your novel. One is from Norway to Scotland (which was also considered in the other direction for D-Day). More realistic would be to use paratroopers for the initial invasion and have them capture and secure a British port, which could then be used to land German reinforcements of troops and armour. This was a genuine fear, and the Admiralty had plans to destroy ports by scuttling ships, dumping coal, and blowing up facilities, had the Nazis been about to invade.
    In HOI4 that's generally the way to go. But you still need to control the sea zone on invasion day. Invading the US is even more difficult; going up through Mexico appears the easiest option, if rather slow. But once German tanks get onto the Great Plains, there is no stopping them.....
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    So pleased to see Primož Roglič winning gold in the ITT. That solidifies the European Union lead in the medal tallies.

    Sorry? The highest EU team is France, who are 8th.
    Huh? The EU has won 63 medals so far, including 16 golds, easily beating China, Japan, England etc.
    The EU is competing no more than Scotland is.
    Whatever happened to banter without taking it so seriously? I wonder if the same pedantry was made when Yorkshire were enjoying "finishing" 12th in the 2012 medal table. I doubt it, we have become more adversarial and divided since then.
    People like Dickson really do believe it. It won't be long until Ursula and other EU people are "jokingly" making these same comparisons. It's just a bit sad.
    It was a joke, something sports fans have done since the dawn of time.
    As if Dickson was joking.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    What is the latest on the three (dodgy?) Indian-made AstraZeneca vaccine batches?

    My first jab was from one of these batches but my second wasn't.

    Should I be concerned?

    Only if travelling internationally.
    Well, that's a huge problem then - I hope they sort this out.
    AIUI it is still country by country so some places are fine, others not, you would need to check before booking. (If only it was an EU competence! Ducks and runs for cover.....)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    Which would be fine - were Brexit the cause. RochdalePioneer and myself have pointed out for ages that the issue is lack of HGV drivers (and more recently a lack of staff due to pings from covid)
    Leaving the single market in HGV drivers wasn’t very bright.
    Well, you clearly have no truck with it.
    It is a heavy load to bear.
    Tell me, what a tractored you to the EU?
  • My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    I liked the time they gamed it with the entire RN and RAF going to the pub for the actual invasion. The Germans sustained 30% losses on the Channel crossing, all by themselves.........
    I've long been tempted to write a novel about an invasion (after I walked around a very atmospheric gun battery on the south coast and imagined a fleet of invasion ships coming across). Having read up on it, IMV to make it realistic a number of things would have to change.

    For one thing, the Germans would have had to wanted to invade England for several years; enough time to build a proper invasion fleet of landing craft, torpedo boats and other craft to harry the Royal Navy. Winning the Battle of Britain would also have been very important, and spies/saboteurs within the UK would have helped. There were others.

    I've got these changes written down somewhere, as the starting point for the writing. without them I couldn't really have the major battles I wanted on the mainland.
    There are alternative invasion routes you should consider for your novel. One is from Norway to Scotland (which was also considered in the other direction for D-Day). More realistic would be to use paratroopers for the initial invasion and have them capture and secure a British port, which could then be used to land German reinforcements of troops and armour. This was a genuine fear, and the Admiralty had plans to destroy ports by scuttling ships, dumping coal, and blowing up facilities, had the Nazis been about to invade.
    Yes, they might make be interesting outlines. In the plot outline I have, the Kriegsmarine defeat the Royal Navy in the Channel, and it is a battle for the Home Fleet to fight its way down from Scarpa Flow. And yes, I have German paratroopers playing a major part.

    I have written some; from memory, the first scene is of a nineteen year old boy watching the German invasion fleet come in as planes bomb the battery he has volunteered in. One strand of the book follows him during the retreat and then the fightback. As I'm a modern sort of person, another strand is from the viewpoint of a German sailor who gets stranded on the mainland. And that's the part I have a problem with, as I found it very hard to write from that viewpoint ...

    I am not a writer (tm). :)
    It's been pretty definitively shown that if the RN wasn't wiped out, sustaining an invasion of GB would have been impossible.
    One way the RN could have been wiped out would have been for it to engage the German navy close enough to Germany for the Luftwaffe to divebomb the ships, in an area where manoeuvring was difficult.
    Which is why the RN got agitated when Churchill wanted them to sail the entire Home Fleet into the Baltic...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,693

    MattW said:

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    On the channel, two historical things I picked up on recently.

    Mine barriers laid across the Channel to block uboats.

    That all of the German undersea telegraph cables in the channel were cut within hours of the start of WW1. Exactly the same basic strategy as WW2. Make them use radio.
    https://warandsecurity.com/2014/08/05/britain-cuts-german-cable-communications-5-august-1914/
    One podcast I listened to put the allies winning World War I down to the cutting of the cables in the first days of the war. It meant the Germans had to use radio, and that allowed the Zimmerman telegram to be intercepted, and helped lead the US to war.

    In the Cold War the Americans and UK tried intercepting communications in Berlin using a tunnel. Interestingly the Russians knew about the tunnel immediately due to George Bake's treachery, but they did not stop using the communication cables because they wanted to protect Blake ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold
    There's a similar story about the Enigma machine (or similar) and the Doodlebugs. They were 'misdirected' away from Central London.
    I don't think that involved the Enigma, but a much more open form of misdirection. From memory, when a bomb exploded, the radio and newspapers would report it as being further north and west. This made the Germans think they were overshooting and reduce the range, meaning they were more likely to land in the lesser-populated southeast than London.

    Someone can probably correct me. ;)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    edited July 2021
    Mr. Max, didn't Chirac claim the English victory in the rugby world cup was a victory for Europe?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    What is the latest on the three (dodgy?) Indian-made AstraZeneca vaccine batches?

    My first jab was from one of these batches but my second wasn't.

    Should I be concerned?

    Only if travelling internationally.
    Well, that's a huge problem then - I hope they sort this out.
    AIUI it is still country by country so some places are fine, others not, you would need to check before booking. (If only it was an EU competence! Ducks and runs for cover.....)
    I know Malta had an issue - but back-tracked;

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/british-travellers-indian-made-astrazeneca-073318725.html
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    You are in Sweden, I think.

    Can you provide evidence that this alleged problem really exists to any significant extent?

    It's the easiest thing in the world to take a photo just before they restock ... that is mainly what happened in April 2020.
    The flaked parmesan shortage is causing havoc in North London, I understand. Some individuals had to buy a grater!
    And @Leon still somehow managed even after buying a grater to be quite ungrateful.
    The evening classes to teach us Londoners how to actually use a grater were not yet open.
    There were evening classes - but not at the most fashionable cooking equipment shops.

    You can't have members of the Patrician class mixing with Head Count, after all...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Stocky said:

    What is the latest on the three (dodgy?) Indian-made AstraZeneca vaccine batches?

    My first jab was from one of these batches but my second wasn't.

    Should I be concerned?

    They're not "dodgy" - they're identical to the UK manufactured ones.

    There appears to still be some confusion - when administered they were described using the UK name (Vaxzevria), not the Indian one (Covishield), but the batch number shows where they were manufactured. So it depends on how the EU accepts UK vaccine certificates.

    This is the most recent story I have found on the subject:

    https://www.scotsman.com/health/what-are-the-indian-made-astrazeneca-vaccine-batch-numbers-and-how-to-check-them-which-eu-countries-accept-covishield-3294722
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Sorry war on woke warriors, was checking the the Levis site for something and note they now have a 'Genderless' category. When capitalism takes a side, the war tends to be over.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225

    Another Scottish success story.
    Actually British, with the anchors from Wales and the turbines from England. And investment from both the the EU and London..
    As this is a prototype, it's also a little early to call it a success. But I hope it will be.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    If the parties and our governments really thought Indyref2 was around the corner, they’d have played the summer very differently. That they haven’t tells us there’ll be no repeat referendum any time soon, no matter how the cybernats may wail

    https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins/status/1420313002369236994?s=20
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    Which would be fine - were Brexit the cause. RochdalePioneer and myself have pointed out for ages that the issue is lack of HGV drivers (and more recently a lack of staff due to pings from covid)
    Leaving the single market in HGV drivers wasn’t very bright.
    Well, you clearly have no truck with it.
    It is a heavy load to bear.
    You articulate it well though.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    MattW said:

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    On the channel, two historical things I picked up on recently.

    Mine barriers laid across the Channel to block uboats.

    That all of the German undersea telegraph cables in the channel were cut within hours of the start of WW1. Exactly the same basic strategy as WW2. Make them use radio.
    https://warandsecurity.com/2014/08/05/britain-cuts-german-cable-communications-5-august-1914/
    One podcast I listened to put the allies winning World War I down to the cutting of the cables in the first days of the war. It meant the Germans had to use radio, and that allowed the Zimmerman telegram to be intercepted, and helped lead the US to war.

    In the Cold War the Americans and UK tried intercepting communications in Berlin using a tunnel. Interestingly the Russians knew about the tunnel immediately due to George Bake's treachery, but they did not stop using the communication cables because they wanted to protect Blake ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold
    There's a similar story about the Enigma machine (or similar) and the Doodlebugs. They were 'misdirected' away from Central London.
    That was using the XXX spy system - the entire German spy system in the UK was actually run by MI6. So they fed them misinformation. Enigma (more often information from Fish, actually) was used to check the German reaction to the misinformation, and adjust what we were telling them.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    Stocky said:

    What is the latest on the three (dodgy?) Indian-made AstraZeneca vaccine batches?

    My first jab was from one of these batches but my second wasn't.

    Should I be concerned?

    They're not "dodgy" - they're identical to the UK manufactured ones.

    There appears to still be some confusion - when administered they were described using the UK name (Vaxzevria), not the Indian one (Covishield), but the batch number shows where they were manufactured. So it depends on how the EU accepts UK vaccine certificates.

    This is the most recent story I have found on the subject:

    https://www.scotsman.com/health/what-are-the-indian-made-astrazeneca-vaccine-batch-numbers-and-how-to-check-them-which-eu-countries-accept-covishield-3294722
    Thanks.

    My vaccination certificate gives the batch number as one of the Indian batches but states Vaxzevria not Covishield.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited July 2021

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    What is the latest on the three (dodgy?) Indian-made AstraZeneca vaccine batches?

    My first jab was from one of these batches but my second wasn't.

    Should I be concerned?

    Only if travelling internationally.
    Well, that's a huge problem then - I hope they sort this out.
    AIUI it is still country by country so some places are fine, others not, you would need to check before booking. (If only it was an EU competence! Ducks and runs for cover.....)
    Planning a trip right now is rather like a military operation. My September trip is looking more of a go-er now we seem to have turned the tide of the latest wave, but I've had to ditch the Austrian and Hungarian bits of it as Austria still has a complete ban on overnight stays by British tourists, extended the Germany bit to avoid being caught up in the Italian quarantine regulations for UK travellers, and arranged a Plan B with ferry return from Holland in case the UK doesn't drop the French amber-plus in time; unlike last year you can't even transit France without being caught by the UK rules. Plus tests to arrange both here and there, on top of the post-Brexit complications for the dog. And a Green Card. And a stack of online registrations and sworn declarations to make for most countries prior to entry. Plus the normal Swiss and Austrian motorway tolls to pre-pay. At least I already have a German low emission permit!

  • IIRC, in the story I read, all those years ago, the Nazi's landed near Battle.

    My great-grandma's big brother lost a leg when trampled by a horse aged 11, so didn't have to off to war (WW1) aged 22. He had a job cooking at the local workhouse but, leaving his wife and seven kids destitute, disappeared with a lady from the workhouse. He was found some years later by one of his brothers, remarried with a new family, in Battle, where he later died.

    So he was one legged man who dodged the war, but ran away and died in Battle..
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    MattW said:

    Talking of newspapers, does anyone know how to read die Zeit.

    There's a glorious faceplant of an article by Bettina Schulz (who I thought reputable) starting thusly:

    The pandemic as an excuse for empty supermarket shelves

    Great Britain is in crisis, the new wave of infections is affecting countless industries. The government does not want to admit that many problems are due to Brexit.

    An analysis by Bettina Schulz , London

    For a long time the British supermarkets were able to hide their misery. For months, pasta, canned soups, avocados or honey were pushed onto the shelves so skilfully that it wasn't even noticeable how meager the selection really was. It is no longer possible, because now the employees are also missing. So there is no one who has time to sort the meager range of goods into Potemkin villages in a land of milk and honey.
    ...

    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-07/grossbritannien-corona-krise-lieferengpaesse-supermaerkte-brexit-delta-personalmangel-pingedemic

    She’s right. Empty shelves are caused by Brexit.

    If it was caused by Covid we would be having the same problem in the European Union. We aren’t.
    With respect that is nonsense

    The pingdemic has caused the most almighty disruption and in my opinion is the cause of Boris's fall in the polls and was avoidable, especially as they are lifting the restrictions on the 16th August

    Not everything is Brexit no matter how much you wish it to be
    And there you have it: big g goes full circle.

    Have a re-read of Animal Farm. The bit where the animals stare through the window at the end. You’ve transmogrified into that which you once despised.
    I have no idea what you are talking about but if you lived in the UK, shopped in the UK, and kept off twitter, you may have your eyes opened to the actual reasons for perceived shortages and affirmed by a cross section PB posters
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    I liked the time they gamed it with the entire RN and RAF going to the pub for the actual invasion. The Germans sustained 30% losses on the Channel crossing, all by themselves.........
    I've long been tempted to write a novel about an invasion (after I walked around a very atmospheric gun battery on the south coast and imagined a fleet of invasion ships coming across). Having read up on it, IMV to make it realistic a number of things would have to change.

    For one thing, the Germans would have had to wanted to invade England for several years; enough time to build a proper invasion fleet of landing craft, torpedo boats and other craft to harry the Royal Navy. Winning the Battle of Britain would also have been very important, and spies/saboteurs within the UK would have helped. There were others.

    I've got these changes written down somewhere, as the starting point for the writing. without them I couldn't really have the major battles I wanted on the mainland.
    There are alternative invasion routes you should consider for your novel. One is from Norway to Scotland (which was also considered in the other direction for D-Day). More realistic would be to use paratroopers for the initial invasion and have them capture and secure a British port, which could then be used to land German reinforcements of troops and armour. This was a genuine fear, and the Admiralty had plans to destroy ports by scuttling ships, dumping coal, and blowing up facilities, had the Nazis been about to invade.
    Yes, they might make be interesting outlines. In the plot outline I have, the Kriegsmarine defeat the Royal Navy in the Channel, and it is a battle for the Home Fleet to fight its way down from Scarpa Flow. And yes, I have German paratroopers playing a major part.

    I have written some; from memory, the first scene is of a nineteen year old boy watching the German invasion fleet come in as planes bomb the battery he has volunteered in. One strand of the book follows him during the retreat and then the fightback. As I'm a modern sort of person, another strand is from the viewpoint of a German sailor who gets stranded on the mainland. And that's the part I have a problem with, as I found it very hard to write from that viewpoint ...

    I am not a writer (tm). :)
    On your second paragraph there's a legend on Canvey Island that a ghostly Danish Viking, from the Horde destroyed at the battle of Benfleet in 894 by Edward the Elder's army, wanders the seaward end of the Island looking for a ship home. In my youth several Islanders claimed to have seen him.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    IanB2 said:

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    I liked the time they gamed it with the entire RN and RAF going to the pub for the actual invasion. The Germans sustained 30% losses on the Channel crossing, all by themselves.........
    I've long been tempted to write a novel about an invasion (after I walked around a very atmospheric gun battery on the south coast and imagined a fleet of invasion ships coming across). Having read up on it, IMV to make it realistic a number of things would have to change.

    For one thing, the Germans would have had to wanted to invade England for several years; enough time to build a proper invasion fleet of landing craft, torpedo boats and other craft to harry the Royal Navy. Winning the Battle of Britain would also have been very important, and spies/saboteurs within the UK would have helped. There were others.

    I've got these changes written down somewhere, as the starting point for the writing. without them I couldn't really have the major battles I wanted on the mainland.
    There are alternative invasion routes you should consider for your novel. One is from Norway to Scotland (which was also considered in the other direction for D-Day). More realistic would be to use paratroopers for the initial invasion and have them capture and secure a British port, which could then be used to land German reinforcements of troops and armour. This was a genuine fear, and the Admiralty had plans to destroy ports by scuttling ships, dumping coal, and blowing up facilities, had the Nazis been about to invade.
    In HOI4 that's generally the way to go. But you still need to control the sea zone on invasion day. Invading the US is even more difficult; going up through Mexico appears the easiest option, if rather slow. But once German tanks get onto the Great Plains, there is no stopping them.....
    Using German paratroops - one thing to change would be the insane German parachute design. Which meant that the paratroops had to land with nothing bigger than a pistol.

    Freyberg ignoring the detail of this in Crete was quite literally insane. Especially after the first landings had proved the information to be exactly accurate.

    I resisted pissing on his grave when I passed it...
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,681
    edited July 2021
    Nigelb said:

    Another Scottish success story.
    Actually British, with the anchors from Wales and the turbines from England. And investment from both the the EU and London..
    As this is a prototype, it's also a little early to call it a success. But I hope it will be.
    A previous prototype (different company) was installed off Ramsey Island in Pembrokeshire. I understand that didn't go too well...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited July 2021
    As a presidential candidate, Donald Trump’s wild, fabulist pronouncements inspired a horrified curiosity in American journalists and a cynical delight in millions of voters. The diverging reactions were explained thus: ‘The press takes him literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally.’

    Nicola Sturgeon can’t take the press seriously because it insists on taking her literally. She was asked at her Tuesday media briefing why all 40-to-49 year olds hadn’t received their second dose of the Covid vaccine by 26 July. You won’t believe how those inky pedants had come up with such a specific target and precise date: they had gone and rewatched some thing from a month ago where someone said, ‘By 26 July, we expect to have given second doses to all 40 to 49-year-olds.’

    And, get this, just because that thing was a statement to the Scottish Parliament and the someone who made it was the First Minister, they were now expecting her to explain it. The nerve of these people.


    https://stephendaisley.substack.com/p/nicolas-level
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    I liked the time they gamed it with the entire RN and RAF going to the pub for the actual invasion. The Germans sustained 30% losses on the Channel crossing, all by themselves.........
    I've long been tempted to write a novel about an invasion (after I walked around a very atmospheric gun battery on the south coast and imagined a fleet of invasion ships coming across). Having read up on it, IMV to make it realistic a number of things would have to change.

    For one thing, the Germans would have had to wanted to invade England for several years; enough time to build a proper invasion fleet of landing craft, torpedo boats and other craft to harry the Royal Navy. Winning the Battle of Britain would also have been very important, and spies/saboteurs within the UK would have helped. There were others.

    I've got these changes written down somewhere, as the starting point for the writing. without them I couldn't really have the major battles I wanted on the mainland.
    There are alternative invasion routes you should consider for your novel. One is from Norway to Scotland (which was also considered in the other direction for D-Day). More realistic would be to use paratroopers for the initial invasion and have them capture and secure a British port, which could then be used to land German reinforcements of troops and armour. This was a genuine fear, and the Admiralty had plans to destroy ports by scuttling ships, dumping coal, and blowing up facilities, had the Nazis been about to invade.
    Yes, they might make be interesting outlines. In the plot outline I have, the Kriegsmarine defeat the Royal Navy in the Channel, and it is a battle for the Home Fleet to fight its way down from Scarpa Flow. And yes, I have German paratroopers playing a major part.

    I have written some; from memory, the first scene is of a nineteen year old boy watching the German invasion fleet come in as planes bomb the battery he has volunteered in. One strand of the book follows him during the retreat and then the fightback. As I'm a modern sort of person, another strand is from the viewpoint of a German sailor who gets stranded on the mainland. And that's the part I have a problem with, as I found it very hard to write from that viewpoint ...

    I am not a writer (tm). :)
    It's been pretty definitively shown that if the RN wasn't wiped out, sustaining an invasion of GB would have been impossible.
    One way the RN could have been wiped out would have been for it to engage the German navy close enough to Germany for the Luftwaffe to divebomb the ships, in an area where manoeuvring was difficult.
    Which is why the RN got agitated when Churchill wanted them to sail the entire Home Fleet into the Baltic...
    The Channel would have been extremely close to the Luftwaffe on French airfields and similarly difficult for manoeuvering..
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    MattW said:

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    On the channel, two historical things I picked up on recently.

    Mine barriers laid across the Channel to block uboats.

    That all of the German undersea telegraph cables in the channel were cut within hours of the start of WW1. Exactly the same basic strategy as WW2. Make them use radio.
    https://warandsecurity.com/2014/08/05/britain-cuts-german-cable-communications-5-august-1914/
    One podcast I listened to put the allies winning World War I down to the cutting of the cables in the first days of the war. It meant the Germans had to use radio, and that allowed the Zimmerman telegram to be intercepted, and helped lead the US to war.

    In the Cold War the Americans and UK tried intercepting communications in Berlin using a tunnel. Interestingly the Russians knew about the tunnel immediately due to George Bake's treachery, but they did not stop using the communication cables because they wanted to protect Blake ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold
    There's a similar story about the Enigma machine (or similar) and the Doodlebugs. They were 'misdirected' away from Central London.
    I don't think that involved the Enigma, but a much more open form of misdirection. From memory, when a bomb exploded, the radio and newspapers would report it as being further north and west. This made the Germans think they were overshooting and reduce the range, meaning they were more likely to land in the lesser-populated southeast than London.

    Someone can probably correct me. ;)
    TBH, after reading your post, I think you're right. It's alleged to be one of the reasons Croydon suffered several attacks.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Are GB leading the medal table for 4th place? Feels like it today.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    MaxPB said:

    Hmm, worrying signs coming from the rowing team. Just watched the replay of the mens 4, what a shambles. 6 gold medals in a row to bumping into the Italians.

    In truth I have reached my worry capacity. Not sure I’ve room for the boaties. Like the USA’s basketball team, all good things etc…
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    MattW said:

    My late Father in law as far back as the 60's maintained that harnessing the tides in the Pentland Firth would be the energy source of the future

    He used to recount that on many times when returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing in the west of Scotland he would experience times when his fishing boat would actually be going astern even with full engines due to the strength of the tides
    My granddad had a similar story. He was on an old merchantman in a convoy going through the English Channel during the war. There was a storm, and after a day they were further back than they had been before, and they were alone as the convoy had steamed well ahead. I don't know much more about the story, but as he was a gunner in DEMS it must have meant a long shift at the guns - unless the weather was so bad German planes couldn't fly and the submarines couldn't easily attack.

    I wish I'd talked more about it with him whilst he was alive.
    For Operation Sealion, many of the barges the Germans were planning to use had a lower speed than the tide running in the Channel. So the invasion fleet would have spent half a day being pushed around by the tide. With a freeboard measured in inches.....
    Yes, it wasn't the best-planned operation...

    Talking about low freeboard, have you ever seen videos of narrowboats crossing the Wash?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdYmqKjdEns
    On the channel, two historical things I picked up on recently.

    Mine barriers laid across the Channel to block uboats.

    That all of the German undersea telegraph cables in the channel were cut within hours of the start of WW1. Exactly the same basic strategy as WW2. Make them use radio.
    https://warandsecurity.com/2014/08/05/britain-cuts-german-cable-communications-5-august-1914/
    One podcast I listened to put the allies winning World War I down to the cutting of the cables in the first days of the war. It meant the Germans had to use radio, and that allowed the Zimmerman telegram to be intercepted, and helped lead the US to war.

    In the Cold War the Americans and UK tried intercepting communications in Berlin using a tunnel. Interestingly the Russians knew about the tunnel immediately due to George Bake's treachery, but they did not stop using the communication cables because they wanted to protect Blake ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold
    There's a similar story about the Enigma machine (or similar) and the Doodlebugs. They were 'misdirected' away from Central London.
    I don't think that involved the Enigma, but a much more open form of misdirection. From memory, when a bomb exploded, the radio and newspapers would report it as being further north and west. This made the Germans think they were overshooting and reduce the range, meaning they were more likely to land in the lesser-populated southeast than London.

    Someone can probably correct me. ;)
    It was a combination - the primary channel were the German agents in Britain. Who were all working for MI6.....

    What was interesting was that they didn't misreport hits - they actually reported a skewed sample of the actual hits.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Sorry war on woke warriors, was checking the the Levis site for something and note they now have a 'Genderless' category. When capitalism takes a side, the war tends to be over.

    There’ll be unisex hairdressers next!
This discussion has been closed.