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The Butler did it? – politicalbetting.com

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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646
    Pagan2 said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    And yet it is the logical consequence of self-id gender ideology.
    No it isn't. Because they never have to sleep with anyone they don't want to. For whatever reason.
    They don't. But they are being accused of transphobia and attacked. It is one reason why some lesbian groups have set up away from Stonewall and in opposition to it, precisely because they are worried about the consequences of self-id for lesbians.

    This is a real issue for lesbians who feel that the demands of men wishing to transition are taking precedence over the rights of women and lesbians in particular.
    I suspect we are largely in agreement here.

    If a man wants to dress as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man want to live as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man wants to take part in women's sporting events that are restricted to women that is a problem. However he/she wishes to self identify, he/she does not qualify. The weight lifting thing in the Olympics is absurd.
    If a man wants to make use of "safe spaces" for women such as toilets, prisons, changing rooms there is a conflict of rights but in my view that conflict should be resolved in favour of those born with the sex of a women if they are at risk. That is why those spaces exist.

    But no one, ever, is obliged to have sex with anyone else. That is all I was saying.
    The weightlifting thing is a bit more nuanced than simply being about “self-Id” (although I agree in general). The rules require the suppression of testosterone levels to female “limits” for a period of time (1 year?). The complaints is that the advantages a man get in general (through puberty etc) are permanent and significant. So it is attempting to regulate/allow fair competition for something which can’t be regulated away.
    The simple answer of course is just introduce a third competition category...male female and trans
    It has been suggested that ‘transgender’ become a category at the Paralympics.

    (Which, let us not forget, means “Parallel Olympics”, and not anything more degrogatory).
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    And yet it is the logical consequence of self-id gender ideology.
    No it isn't. Because they never have to sleep with anyone they don't want to. For whatever reason.
    They don't. But they are being accused of transphobia and attacked. It is one reason why some lesbian groups have set up away from Stonewall and in opposition to it, precisely because they are worried about the consequences of self-id for lesbians.

    This is a real issue for lesbians who feel that the demands of men wishing to transition are taking precedence over the rights of women and lesbians in particular.
    I suspect we are largely in agreement here.

    If a man wants to dress as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man want to live as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man wants to take part in women's sporting events that are restricted to women that is a problem. However he/she wishes to self identify, he/she does not qualify. The weight lifting thing in the Olympics is absurd.
    If a man wants to make use of "safe spaces" for women such as toilets, prisons, changing rooms there is a conflict of rights but in my view that conflict should be resolved in favour of those born with the sex of a women if they are at risk. That is why those spaces exist.

    But no one, ever, is obliged to have sex with anyone else. That is all I was saying.
    Of course no-one is obliged to. But with the greatest respect I don't think you always understand the pressure women are put under by men in this regard and how tiresome it is (or worse). To then be told, if you are a lesbian that you are phobic in not wanting to have sex with a man, is not something women should have to put up with.

    Being accused of being transphobic can lead to awful consequences for women so this is not a joke or something to be shrugged off.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,237

    Thoughts and prayers for Matt Goodwin.

    Le Pen's far-right fails to win any region in France vote, according to estimates

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1409211037639917572

    Any threat to her not making the second round in the presidentials? Clearly the expected result of whoever is up against her winning seems under no threat.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,884
    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    And yet it is the logical consequence of self-id gender ideology.
    No it isn't. Because they never have to sleep with anyone they don't want to. For whatever reason.
    They don't. But they are being accused of transphobia and attacked. It is one reason why some lesbian groups have set up away from Stonewall and in opposition to it, precisely because they are worried about the consequences of self-id for lesbians.

    This is a real issue for lesbians who feel that the demands of men wishing to transition are taking precedence over the rights of women and lesbians in particular.
    I suspect we are largely in agreement here.

    If a man wants to dress as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man want to live as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man wants to take part in women's sporting events that are restricted to women that is a problem. However he/she wishes to self identify, he/she does not qualify. The weight lifting thing in the Olympics is absurd.
    If a man wants to make use of "safe spaces" for women such as toilets, prisons, changing rooms there is a conflict of rights but in my view that conflict should be resolved in favour of those born with the sex of a women if they are at risk. That is why those spaces exist.

    But no one, ever, is obliged to have sex with anyone else. That is all I was saying.
    It is not quite that simple though is it. You meet someone in the bar you are attracted, you wine her and dine her over a couple of weeks then you find out she isn't a women/man depending on your gender.

    At what point does it become incumbent on someone to mention it before it becomes deception? You whether he or she may be spending money on someone that you wouldn't have done if you had known up front. This sort of thing is going to crop up and I fully expect lawsuits about it.
    The idea behind that is that this person should be wanting to have sex with you because you are spending money on them, as opposed to enjoying their company. That's wrong, bluntly. There is no quid pro quo outside prostitution.

    Of course not disclosing such an important thing about yourself is likely to destroy the friendship.
    No that is totally not the argument, yes you are doing it to persuade them into bed which they are free to refuse. However if you are spending money that you wouldn't have spent if you had known they were not the gender they present as then its deception. I am sure we have all wined and dined people in the hope and it didnt work out......when however it had no chance of working out because someone didn't mention something fairly major then its deceptive. Both sides know what is going on during the wining and dining and know where its intended to lead.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,237

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    I'd say you're the one letting it all hang out.

    The "it" being pig ignorant, supercilious bigotry.
    I'll bite.

    Do you think that a man should be allowed to do this?
    I think you are approaching this from the wrong end (ahem, as it were)

    I would say that women have a reasonable right to privacy. But there should also be unisex facilities (with individual cubicles) where both sexes plus people in transition can go
    You are missing the point. He was in the entrance of the building exposing himself. A private cubicle for people who are actually transitioning is fine.
    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    Some trans extremists have accused lesbians of being transphobic because they won't have sex with men who still have penises etc but who claim they are women.

    When I was growing up, if you didn't want to sleep with a man you sometimes got the retort that you must therefore be a lesbian (rather than a woman with good taste and eyes to see).

    And if you were a lesbian you were often told that sex with whatever slimy male git was trying to get you into bed would "convert" you.

    Now we're getting lesbians accused of being transphobic because they don't want penises thrust into them. It's an old male bullying story - dressed up in different language.
    One gathers the impression that the broader agenda is that (1) of course people can be whatever they want to be, and consequently (2) biological sex has to be dismissed as irrelevant, because it is an obstacle to (1).

    At the end of that road lies the eradication of sexual orientation - because if one is required to accept that trans men are men and trans women are women without any qualification, then, for example, a gay man who dismisses a trans man is a sexual partner is transphobic, unforgiveable and must be cancelled.

    The sort of people who champion this kind of radical equality agenda are invariably the same types who bore on endlessly about diversity, but the two concepts are mutually exclusive. People aren't all functionally identical and shouldn't be treated as such.
    I suspect there are about three people on Earth who think this way, but frustratingly they get all the re-tweets.
    I don't think the idea would get as many retweets (since it is not all hate retweeting) if it were a very small minority, as opposed to a minority.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,757
    Foxy said:

    Posted without comment.

    A man flew into a violent rage during a sexual encounter with a transgender woman.

    Suhel Sood repeatedly punched the victim, slammed her head onto a washing machine, and ordered the victim to clean up her own blood after discovering she had male genitals.

    Now Sood, 34, who was fuelled by booze and cocaine, has been jailed for 16 months.

    Reading Crown Court heard the victim had arrived at a party with her boyfriend before ending up in a room alone with Sood.

    She performed a sex act on him, before Sood switched on the light and shouted 'you're a man' before attacking her and calling her a 'dog', the Mirror reports.

    "This assault arose entirely from Mr Sood discovering that she was transgender and thereafter assaulting her," Oliver Weetch, prosecuting, said.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/thug-brutally-attacked-beautiful-woman-20883241

    While obviously the assault is a criminal act and should be severely punished, under British law there is a concept of rape by deception

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

    Though this would sound like sexual assault by deception. See case 2 in the Wikipedia link.
    If you deceive someone over a sexual matter and get a kicking for so doing, I can't say I have much sympathy. The law takes a different view...

    How many guys would not react violently when they had been so deceived..?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,240
    edited June 2021
    Pagan2 said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    And yet it is the logical consequence of self-id gender ideology.
    No it isn't. Because they never have to sleep with anyone they don't want to. For whatever reason.
    They don't. But they are being accused of transphobia and attacked. It is one reason why some lesbian groups have set up away from Stonewall and in opposition to it, precisely because they are worried about the consequences of self-id for lesbians.

    This is a real issue for lesbians who feel that the demands of men wishing to transition are taking precedence over the rights of women and lesbians in particular.
    I suspect we are largely in agreement here.

    If a man wants to dress as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man want to live as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man wants to take part in women's sporting events that are restricted to women that is a problem. However he/she wishes to self identify, he/she does not qualify. The weight lifting thing in the Olympics is absurd.
    If a man wants to make use of "safe spaces" for women such as toilets, prisons, changing rooms there is a conflict of rights but in my view that conflict should be resolved in favour of those born with the sex of a women if they are at risk. That is why those spaces exist.

    But no one, ever, is obliged to have sex with anyone else. That is all I was saying.
    The weightlifting thing is a bit more nuanced than simply being about “self-Id” (although I agree in general). The rules require the suppression of testosterone levels to female “limits” for a period of time (1 year?). The complaints is that the advantages a man get in general (through puberty etc) are permanent and significant. So it is attempting to regulate/allow fair competition for something which can’t be regulated away.
    The simple answer of course is just introduce a third competition category...male female and trans
    Isn't needed, the male category in sports should always be 'open'. Can't think of any sport where being female is an advantage* - it's the female cat that needs to be protected as 'athlete deemed female', 'born female'.
    The problem with testosterone limits is athletes who are deemed female and have not gone any sort of sex change operation (Semenya) then have to supress their natural T levels. Perhaps Semenya shouldn't be deemed female for sporting competition purposes but she is and if she is then she shouldn't have to supress her natural advantage of higher T.

    * It's equal footing in equestrianism and I checked the marathon 10k swim times, men are quicker even though the longer the distance the narrower the gap particularly in swimming.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Had a few convivial drinks with a former PM this afternoon.

    The rumours about Gove were confirmed.

    I wonder what Mrs Gove would have to say on this subject if so?

    https://twitter.com/MarinaHyde/status/1409034481571348486
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,240
    I've backed Belgium at 6-4 to win within 90 minutes here, first bet of the tournament.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,884
    Pulpstar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    And yet it is the logical consequence of self-id gender ideology.
    No it isn't. Because they never have to sleep with anyone they don't want to. For whatever reason.
    They don't. But they are being accused of transphobia and attacked. It is one reason why some lesbian groups have set up away from Stonewall and in opposition to it, precisely because they are worried about the consequences of self-id for lesbians.

    This is a real issue for lesbians who feel that the demands of men wishing to transition are taking precedence over the rights of women and lesbians in particular.
    I suspect we are largely in agreement here.

    If a man wants to dress as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man want to live as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man wants to take part in women's sporting events that are restricted to women that is a problem. However he/she wishes to self identify, he/she does not qualify. The weight lifting thing in the Olympics is absurd.
    If a man wants to make use of "safe spaces" for women such as toilets, prisons, changing rooms there is a conflict of rights but in my view that conflict should be resolved in favour of those born with the sex of a women if they are at risk. That is why those spaces exist.

    But no one, ever, is obliged to have sex with anyone else. That is all I was saying.
    The weightlifting thing is a bit more nuanced than simply being about “self-Id” (although I agree in general). The rules require the suppression of testosterone levels to female “limits” for a period of time (1 year?). The complaints is that the advantages a man get in general (through puberty etc) are permanent and significant. So it is attempting to regulate/allow fair competition for something which can’t be regulated away.
    The simple answer of course is just introduce a third competition category...male female and trans
    Isn't needed, the male category in sports should always be 'open'. Can't think of any sport where being female is an advantage - it's the female cat that needs to be protected as 'athlete deemed female', 'born female'.
    The problem with testosterone limits is athletes who are deemed female and have not gone any sort of sex change operation (Semenya) then have to supress their natural T levels. Perhaps Semenya shouldn't be deemed female for sporting competition purposes but she is and if she is then she shouldn't have to supress her natural advantage of higher T.
    I included transgender because of the following:

    If you allow trans M to F into female sports it is unfair to women
    If you make all trans enter male sport then it is unfair to F to M transgenders
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Foxy said:

    Posted without comment.

    A man flew into a violent rage during a sexual encounter with a transgender woman.

    Suhel Sood repeatedly punched the victim, slammed her head onto a washing machine, and ordered the victim to clean up her own blood after discovering she had male genitals.

    Now Sood, 34, who was fuelled by booze and cocaine, has been jailed for 16 months.

    Reading Crown Court heard the victim had arrived at a party with her boyfriend before ending up in a room alone with Sood.

    She performed a sex act on him, before Sood switched on the light and shouted 'you're a man' before attacking her and calling her a 'dog', the Mirror reports.

    "This assault arose entirely from Mr Sood discovering that she was transgender and thereafter assaulting her," Oliver Weetch, prosecuting, said.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/thug-brutally-attacked-beautiful-woman-20883241

    While obviously the assault is a criminal act and should be severely punished, under British law there is a concept of rape by deception

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

    Though this would sound like sexual assault by deception. See case 2 in the Wikipedia link.
    If you deceive someone over a sexual matter and get a kicking for so doing, I can't say I have much sympathy. The law takes a different view...

    How many guys would not react violently when they had been so deceived..?
    Nonetheless assaulting a person is wrong.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,541
    kle4 said:

    Thoughts and prayers for Matt Goodwin.

    Le Pen's far-right fails to win any region in France vote, according to estimates

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1409211037639917572

    Any threat to her not making the second round in the presidentials? Clearly the expected result of whoever is up against her winning seems under no threat.
    That would upset Macron - he very likely needs to get into a "X vs the fascist" runoff to win again.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,240
    Pagan2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    And yet it is the logical consequence of self-id gender ideology.
    No it isn't. Because they never have to sleep with anyone they don't want to. For whatever reason.
    They don't. But they are being accused of transphobia and attacked. It is one reason why some lesbian groups have set up away from Stonewall and in opposition to it, precisely because they are worried about the consequences of self-id for lesbians.

    This is a real issue for lesbians who feel that the demands of men wishing to transition are taking precedence over the rights of women and lesbians in particular.
    I suspect we are largely in agreement here.

    If a man wants to dress as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man want to live as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man wants to take part in women's sporting events that are restricted to women that is a problem. However he/she wishes to self identify, he/she does not qualify. The weight lifting thing in the Olympics is absurd.
    If a man wants to make use of "safe spaces" for women such as toilets, prisons, changing rooms there is a conflict of rights but in my view that conflict should be resolved in favour of those born with the sex of a women if they are at risk. That is why those spaces exist.

    But no one, ever, is obliged to have sex with anyone else. That is all I was saying.
    The weightlifting thing is a bit more nuanced than simply being about “self-Id” (although I agree in general). The rules require the suppression of testosterone levels to female “limits” for a period of time (1 year?). The complaints is that the advantages a man get in general (through puberty etc) are permanent and significant. So it is attempting to regulate/allow fair competition for something which can’t be regulated away.
    The simple answer of course is just introduce a third competition category...male female and trans
    Isn't needed, the male category in sports should always be 'open'. Can't think of any sport where being female is an advantage - it's the female cat that needs to be protected as 'athlete deemed female', 'born female'.
    The problem with testosterone limits is athletes who are deemed female and have not gone any sort of sex change operation (Semenya) then have to supress their natural T levels. Perhaps Semenya shouldn't be deemed female for sporting competition purposes but she is and if she is then she shouldn't have to supress her natural advantage of higher T.
    I included transgender because of the following:

    If you allow trans M to F into female sports it is unfair to women
    If you make all trans enter male sport then it is unfair to F to M transgenders
    The issue is the number of competitive (In any direction) trans sports people is so tiny that Laurel Hubbard is basically competing against herself in the weightlifting for example.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646
    Pulpstar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    And yet it is the logical consequence of self-id gender ideology.
    No it isn't. Because they never have to sleep with anyone they don't want to. For whatever reason.
    They don't. But they are being accused of transphobia and attacked. It is one reason why some lesbian groups have set up away from Stonewall and in opposition to it, precisely because they are worried about the consequences of self-id for lesbians.

    This is a real issue for lesbians who feel that the demands of men wishing to transition are taking precedence over the rights of women and lesbians in particular.
    I suspect we are largely in agreement here.

    If a man wants to dress as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man want to live as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man wants to take part in women's sporting events that are restricted to women that is a problem. However he/she wishes to self identify, he/she does not qualify. The weight lifting thing in the Olympics is absurd.
    If a man wants to make use of "safe spaces" for women such as toilets, prisons, changing rooms there is a conflict of rights but in my view that conflict should be resolved in favour of those born with the sex of a women if they are at risk. That is why those spaces exist.

    But no one, ever, is obliged to have sex with anyone else. That is all I was saying.
    The weightlifting thing is a bit more nuanced than simply being about “self-Id” (although I agree in general). The rules require the suppression of testosterone levels to female “limits” for a period of time (1 year?). The complaints is that the advantages a man get in general (through puberty etc) are permanent and significant. So it is attempting to regulate/allow fair competition for something which can’t be regulated away.
    The simple answer of course is just introduce a third competition category...male female and trans
    Isn't needed, the male category in sports should always be 'open'. Can't think of any sport where being female is an advantage* - it's the female cat that needs to be protected as 'athlete deemed female', 'born female'.
    The problem with testosterone limits is athletes who are deemed female and have not gone any sort of sex change operation (Semenya) then have to supress their natural T levels. Perhaps Semenya shouldn't be deemed female for sporting competition purposes but she is and if she is then she shouldn't have to supress her natural advantage of higher T.

    * It's equal footing in equestrianism and I checked the marathon 10k swim times, men are quicker even though the longer the distance the narrower the gap particularly in swimming.
    The only sports where men and women compete on equal terms involve other equipment, the use of which is the primary skill of the event. So at the Olympics we have the equestrian and sailing events, and also motorsports and air sports.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    Numbers taken form todays Vaccination data for England:

    First doses, all % based on the NIMS total populations.

    Age New Total

    90+ 0.01 93.94
    85-89 0.00 95.49
    80-84 0.01 95.49
    75-79 0.01 96.39
    70-74 0.01 94.37
    65-69 0.01 92.10
    60-64 0.02 90.07
    55-59 0.03 88.03
    50-54 0.05 85.32
    45-49 0.09 79.97
    40-44 0.12 73.51
    35-39 0.24 65.88
    30-34 0.38 59.21
    25-29 1.17 51.22
    18-24 1.97 42.02

    The NIMS population is 5.3 million higher than the ONS estimates, so that may explain why the numbers look comparably low.

    In 9 days time both of the youngest groups will be at 60% vaccinated, i.e. the same as the 30-34 now, and presumable the rate of vaccination will also decline to their rate.

    What then?

    might more walk in centres help? more advertising? or move to the younger people?

    Caveat: it could be that the NIMIS data is uneven by age so there are propotiantly more 18-24 year olds, but if anything I think the opposite might be the case, as younger people move house more often, generally.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,237
    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of cash: I would be a lot more relaxed about forcing businesses to accept cash if the rules on opening bank accounts were no so byzantine. Yes, I know it's all anti money laundering, but the experience a friend of ours had was positively Byzantine.

    She's 21, a graduate of a top US University, that got accepted to do a Masters in London.

    She got the relevant visa, found a flat share, wired money over and arrived in the UK. First day, she went to go and open a bank account.

    You need to have evidence of a bank account in your home country.

    No problem. Here's my bank card and a print out of the statement.

    Print outs aren't acceptable because they don't meet AML standards.

    But the bank doesn't send me paper copies.

    Sorry, we can't open a bank account for you.

    Eventually she needed to get stuff Fedexed from the US to the UK so she could open an account which had negligible sums going through it.

    I had a student account while at university, whatever that might mean, with the same bank I had had since I was a child. When I finished my studies I went down to the bank for them to turn it into a regular account again. For some reason I cannot recall they seemed to find this incredibly difficult to manage without various bits of proof, not all of which I had on me.

    The conversation ended when I sarcastically suggested what I had on me would be sufficient to open an account with a different bank and for my student account amount to be transferred to that, and they agreed that was the case.

    I didn't have the energy to work out if they messed up or I messed up, but the way it was put to me, that it was harder for me to open another account with the bank I already had an account with and had for over a decade, than with an entirely different bank, felt like it surely had to be wrong.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,932
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    And yet it is the logical consequence of self-id gender ideology.
    No it isn't. Because they never have to sleep with anyone they don't want to. For whatever reason.
    They don't. But they are being accused of transphobia and attacked. It is one reason why some lesbian groups have set up away from Stonewall and in opposition to it, precisely because they are worried about the consequences of self-id for lesbians.

    This is a real issue for lesbians who feel that the demands of men wishing to transition are taking precedence over the rights of women and lesbians in particular.
    I suspect we are largely in agreement here.

    If a man wants to dress as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man want to live as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man wants to take part in women's sporting events that are restricted to women that is a problem. However he/she wishes to self identify, he/she does not qualify. The weight lifting thing in the Olympics is absurd.
    If a man wants to make use of "safe spaces" for women such as toilets, prisons, changing rooms there is a conflict of rights but in my view that conflict should be resolved in favour of those born with the sex of a women if they are at risk. That is why those spaces exist.

    But no one, ever, is obliged to have sex with anyone else. That is all I was saying.
    Of course no-one is obliged to. But with the greatest respect I don't think you always understand the pressure women are put under by men in this regard and how tiresome it is (or worse). To then be told, if you are a lesbian that you are phobic in not wanting to have sex with a man, is not something women should have to put up with.

    Being accused of being transphobic can lead to awful consequences for women so this is not a joke or something to be shrugged off.
    Maybe I don't but I have 2 daughters and I am aware of their experience. But I agree with you that a lesbian who does not want to sleep with someone who is biologically still a man is not being phobic in refusing to do so, however that person self identifies. Our rules on gender have got into a really strange place when that is even open for debate.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,237
    edited June 2021

    Foxy said:

    Posted without comment.

    A man flew into a violent rage during a sexual encounter with a transgender woman.

    Suhel Sood repeatedly punched the victim, slammed her head onto a washing machine, and ordered the victim to clean up her own blood after discovering she had male genitals.

    Now Sood, 34, who was fuelled by booze and cocaine, has been jailed for 16 months.

    Reading Crown Court heard the victim had arrived at a party with her boyfriend before ending up in a room alone with Sood.

    She performed a sex act on him, before Sood switched on the light and shouted 'you're a man' before attacking her and calling her a 'dog', the Mirror reports.

    "This assault arose entirely from Mr Sood discovering that she was transgender and thereafter assaulting her," Oliver Weetch, prosecuting, said.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/thug-brutally-attacked-beautiful-woman-20883241

    While obviously the assault is a criminal act and should be severely punished, under British law there is a concept of rape by deception

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

    Though this would sound like sexual assault by deception. See case 2 in the Wikipedia link.
    If you deceive someone over a sexual matter and get a kicking for so doing, I can't say I have much sympathy. The law takes a different view...

    How many guys would not react violently when they had been so deceived..?
    Many would have reacted the same and had sympathy with others who also did. But just as with self defence someone doing wrong to you isn't an invitation to have a blank check in your response.

    How far the response is taken probably determines if they think it worth prosecuting you. From the summary here they went on for quite a bit.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,541
    BigRich said:

    Numbers taken form todays Vaccination data for England:

    First doses, all % based on the NIMS total populations.

    Age New Total

    90+ 0.01 93.94
    85-89 0.00 95.49
    80-84 0.01 95.49
    75-79 0.01 96.39
    70-74 0.01 94.37
    65-69 0.01 92.10
    60-64 0.02 90.07
    55-59 0.03 88.03
    50-54 0.05 85.32
    45-49 0.09 79.97
    40-44 0.12 73.51
    35-39 0.24 65.88
    30-34 0.38 59.21
    25-29 1.17 51.22
    18-24 1.97 42.02

    The NIMS population is 5.3 million higher than the ONS estimates, so that may explain why the numbers look comparably low.

    In 9 days time both of the youngest groups will be at 60% vaccinated, i.e. the same as the 30-34 now, and presumable the rate of vaccination will also decline to their rate.

    What then?

    might more walk in centres help? more advertising? or move to the younger people?

    Caveat: it could be that the NIMIS data is uneven by age so there are propotiantly more 18-24 year olds, but if anything I think the opposite might be the case, as younger people move house more often, generally.

    I would suggest looking at Wales - they are down to a steady trickle of vaccinations, about 0.1% of firsts per day.

    England will be in a similar position in about 2 weeks.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,061

    Looks in
    Sees "trans"
    Decides to check back in later

    So much better when it is 'trains'.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,237

    kle4 said:

    Thoughts and prayers for Matt Goodwin.

    Le Pen's far-right fails to win any region in France vote, according to estimates

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1409211037639917572

    Any threat to her not making the second round in the presidentials? Clearly the expected result of whoever is up against her winning seems under no threat.
    That would upset Macron - he very likely needs to get into a "X vs the fascist" runoff to win again.
    Tragic.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,478

    Looks in
    Sees "trans"
    Decides to check back in later

    So much better when it is 'trains'.
    That puts us on the fast track to some awesome puns.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    And yet it is the logical consequence of self-id gender ideology.
    No it isn't. Because they never have to sleep with anyone they don't want to. For whatever reason.
    They don't. But they are being accused of transphobia and attacked. It is one reason why some lesbian groups have set up away from Stonewall and in opposition to it, precisely because they are worried about the consequences of self-id for lesbians.

    This is a real issue for lesbians who feel that the demands of men wishing to transition are taking precedence over the rights of women and lesbians in particular.
    I suspect we are largely in agreement here.

    If a man wants to dress as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man want to live as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man wants to take part in women's sporting events that are restricted to women that is a problem. However he/she wishes to self identify, he/she does not qualify. The weight lifting thing in the Olympics is absurd.
    If a man wants to make use of "safe spaces" for women such as toilets, prisons, changing rooms there is a conflict of rights but in my view that conflict should be resolved in favour of those born with the sex of a women if they are at risk. That is why those spaces exist.

    But no one, ever, is obliged to have sex with anyone else. That is all I was saying.
    The weightlifting thing is a bit more nuanced than simply being about “self-Id” (although I agree in general). The rules require the suppression of testosterone levels to female “limits” for a period of time (1 year?). The complaints is that the advantages a man get in general (through puberty etc) are permanent and significant. So it is attempting to regulate/allow fair competition for something which can’t be regulated away.
    The simple answer of course is just introduce a third competition category...male female and trans
    Isn't needed, the male category in sports should always be 'open'. Can't think of any sport where being female is an advantage* - it's the female cat that needs to be protected as 'athlete deemed female', 'born female'.
    The problem with testosterone limits is athletes who are deemed female and have not gone any sort of sex change operation (Semenya) then have to supress their natural T levels. Perhaps Semenya shouldn't be deemed female for sporting competition purposes but she is and if she is then she shouldn't have to supress her natural advantage of higher T.

    * It's equal footing in equestrianism and I checked the marathon 10k swim times, men are quicker even though the longer the distance the narrower the gap particularly in swimming.
    The only sports where men and women compete on equal terms involve other equipment, the use of which is the primary skill of the event. So at the Olympics we have the equestrian and sailing events, and also motorsports and air sports.
    Sailing is separate men’s/women’s
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,237
    ydoethur said:

    Looks in
    Sees "trans"
    Decides to check back in later

    So much better when it is 'trains'.
    That puts us on the fast track to some awesome puns.
    Don't railroad us into that.

    (Damn it).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,478
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Looks in
    Sees "trans"
    Decides to check back in later

    So much better when it is 'trains'.
    That puts us on the fast track to some awesome puns.
    Don't railroad us into that.

    (Damn it).
    Ok, I get your point.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,820

    Foxy said:

    Posted without comment.

    A man flew into a violent rage during a sexual encounter with a transgender woman.

    Suhel Sood repeatedly punched the victim, slammed her head onto a washing machine, and ordered the victim to clean up her own blood after discovering she had male genitals.

    Now Sood, 34, who was fuelled by booze and cocaine, has been jailed for 16 months.

    Reading Crown Court heard the victim had arrived at a party with her boyfriend before ending up in a room alone with Sood.

    She performed a sex act on him, before Sood switched on the light and shouted 'you're a man' before attacking her and calling her a 'dog', the Mirror reports.

    "This assault arose entirely from Mr Sood discovering that she was transgender and thereafter assaulting her," Oliver Weetch, prosecuting, said.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/thug-brutally-attacked-beautiful-woman-20883241

    While obviously the assault is a criminal act and should be severely punished, under British law there is a concept of rape by deception

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

    Though this would sound like sexual assault by deception. See case 2 in the Wikipedia link.
    If you deceive someone over a sexual matter and get a kicking for so doing, I can't say I have much sympathy. The law takes a different view...

    How many guys would not react violently when they had been so deceived..?
    I would say that both are criminal acts.

    Someone else being a criminal doesn't excuse a criminal act against them, except in reasonable self defence.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,183
    Belgium v Portugal has 0-0 written all over it. It's going to be a long evening.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,903

    The summer holidays are happening at the right time.

    Tens of thousands of pupils are being sent home to isolate as Covid cases in the young soar to their highest level since January, amid warnings that more schools will have to close.

    The number of outbreaks in schools and colleges jumped from 96 to 148, a rise of 54 per cent, in the week to June 20. It was the highest weekly number of outbreaks reported to Public Health England since December.

    School closures cause chaos for working parents, who have endured 15 months of academic mayhem, including weeks of home schooling.

    Disruption threatens what is many children’s favourite term, with sports days, end-of-year parties, leaving ceremonies and plays.

    The latest government dashboard figures show a 70 per cent weekly rise among children aged five to nine testing positive for Covid-19, mostly for the Delta variant first identified in India, and a 56 per cent jump among children aged 10-14. More than 16,100 pupils were absent from school with a suspected case of Covid in the third week of June, up from 10,600 seven days earlier.

    About 214,000 pupils were self-isolating at home due to “potential contact” with an infected person, up from 71,900 the week before.

    Kevin Courtney, joint general secretary of the biggest teachers’ union, the National Education Union, said there was “every prospect of many more children self-isolating”, with cases expected to double three times before the end of term in July.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/school-chaos-as-coronavirus-cases-up-70-in-week-8nrl6k8h5

    We could really do to stop the approach of keeping the whole class of for ten days - regardless of whether any of the others test negative - if one person tests negative. I currently have a negative-tested 11 year old at home in that category. Her year 6 residential should be starting tomorrow, but with the whole year sel-isolating, obviously isn't.
    Unfortunately the NEU are one of the leading voices advocating this shit.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,820
    Pulpstar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    And yet it is the logical consequence of self-id gender ideology.
    No it isn't. Because they never have to sleep with anyone they don't want to. For whatever reason.
    They don't. But they are being accused of transphobia and attacked. It is one reason why some lesbian groups have set up away from Stonewall and in opposition to it, precisely because they are worried about the consequences of self-id for lesbians.

    This is a real issue for lesbians who feel that the demands of men wishing to transition are taking precedence over the rights of women and lesbians in particular.
    I suspect we are largely in agreement here.

    If a man wants to dress as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man want to live as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man wants to take part in women's sporting events that are restricted to women that is a problem. However he/she wishes to self identify, he/she does not qualify. The weight lifting thing in the Olympics is absurd.
    If a man wants to make use of "safe spaces" for women such as toilets, prisons, changing rooms there is a conflict of rights but in my view that conflict should be resolved in favour of those born with the sex of a women if they are at risk. That is why those spaces exist.

    But no one, ever, is obliged to have sex with anyone else. That is all I was saying.
    The weightlifting thing is a bit more nuanced than simply being about “self-Id” (although I agree in general). The rules require the suppression of testosterone levels to female “limits” for a period of time (1 year?). The complaints is that the advantages a man get in general (through puberty etc) are permanent and significant. So it is attempting to regulate/allow fair competition for something which can’t be regulated away.
    The simple answer of course is just introduce a third competition category...male female and trans
    Isn't needed, the male category in sports should always be 'open'. Can't think of any sport where being female is an advantage - it's the female cat that needs to be protected as 'athlete deemed female', 'born female'.
    The problem with testosterone limits is athletes who are deemed female and have not gone any sort of sex change operation (Semenya) then have to supress their natural T levels. Perhaps Semenya shouldn't be deemed female for sporting competition purposes but she is and if she is then she shouldn't have to supress her natural advantage of higher T.
    I included transgender because of the following:

    If you allow trans M to F into female sports it is unfair to women
    If you make all trans enter male sport then it is unfair to F to M transgenders
    The issue is the number of competitive (In any direction) trans sports people is so tiny that Laurel Hubbard is basically competing against herself in the weightlifting for example.
    It is worth noting that Trans people have been permitted in the Olympics for over a decade, so it does seem that hordes of men declaring themselves as women in order to participate in women's events is rather a non-issue.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,820
    ydoethur said:

    Looks in
    Sees "trans"
    Decides to check back in later

    So much better when it is 'trains'.
    That puts us on the fast track to some awesome puns.
    I will not be railroaded into such a contest.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,281
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Posted without comment.

    A man flew into a violent rage during a sexual encounter with a transgender woman.

    Suhel Sood repeatedly punched the victim, slammed her head onto a washing machine, and ordered the victim to clean up her own blood after discovering she had male genitals.

    Now Sood, 34, who was fuelled by booze and cocaine, has been jailed for 16 months.

    Reading Crown Court heard the victim had arrived at a party with her boyfriend before ending up in a room alone with Sood.

    She performed a sex act on him, before Sood switched on the light and shouted 'you're a man' before attacking her and calling her a 'dog', the Mirror reports.

    "This assault arose entirely from Mr Sood discovering that she was transgender and thereafter assaulting her," Oliver Weetch, prosecuting, said.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/thug-brutally-attacked-beautiful-woman-20883241

    While obviously the assault is a criminal act and should be severely punished, under British law there is a concept of rape by deception

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

    Though this would sound like sexual assault by deception. See case 2 in the Wikipedia link.
    If you deceive someone over a sexual matter and get a kicking for so doing, I can't say I have much sympathy. The law takes a different view...

    How many guys would not react violently when they had been so deceived..?
    I would say that both are criminal acts.

    Someone else being a criminal doesn't excuse a criminal act against them, except in reasonable self defence.
    A comparable situation was described by The Kinks in their 1970 hit single Lola. No violence ensued.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,477

    Spent a few hours phone canvassing in Batley and Spen this weekend, finding a lot of people answering this time (unlike last, when the footie was on). I was being steered by the system to the don't knows/won't says/undecideds/ who tend to be a tough gig. Some notes:

    * Kim Leadbeater has a genuine personal following. Nobody mentioned her being the sister of Jo Cox, but I I got nearly a dozen voters saying they knew her, knew her family, etc. One said he usually voted Tory but was probably going for her, as she'd "really represent the area", and an ex-Kipper was giving her a personal vote. But the Tory candidate Ryan Stephenson is respected too and I encountered people weighing up personal preference.

    * Interest in Galloway remains undetectable to my eyes (and I've been doing this stuff for 50 years), and people who mentioned him did it with contempt. One voter with a Pakistani name said, "He is an imposter, he is no more interested in Muslims than I am the Pope." He's definitely not going to win, or outpoll Labour, and I'm scaling back my guesstimate from 9% to 6%. I did get one voter who was switching from Labour to "Green Socialist".

    * There's a LOT of interest. Nobody told me not to bother them, mind my own business, etc. Don't knows still exist but mostly in the sense of genuinely wavering, not non-voters in disguise. Quite a few wanted to discuss it, which is unusual in my phone canvassing experience.

    * Nobody mentioned Hancock etc., though one said "Some of these blokes who were on TV this week for the Government maybe need taking down a peg or two."

    * Some of the media reports from journalists visiting from London suggest that Batley is a grim area full of bigoted WWC and radical Muslims. That's not my impression at all. Going by the people I talked to, it sounds a nice place.

    Overall - all anecdotal, too varied to say. But my impression is that Labour is narrowing the gap a bit - probably not quite enough, though. If we do win it'll be much more to do with Kim than the national scene.

    Great if this comes to pass. However, I get the impression sometimes that you are very much a glass half full kind of a guy. My fear is the glass is half full of Galloway's acidic urine.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    And yet it is the logical consequence of self-id gender ideology.
    No it isn't. Because they never have to sleep with anyone they don't want to. For whatever reason.
    Guilt shaming doesn’t care about their rights
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    tlg86 said:

    Belgium v Portugal has 0-0 written all over it. It's going to be a long evening.

    Normally I cheer for any side who Pepe is facing but Portugal have Diogo Jota, so I'm really confused what to do.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,883

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    I'd say you're the one letting it all hang out.

    The "it" being pig ignorant, supercilious bigotry.
    I'll bite.

    Do you think that a man should be allowed to do this?
    I think you are approaching this from the wrong end (ahem, as it were)

    I would say that women have a reasonable right to privacy. But there should also be unisex facilities (with individual cubicles) where both sexes plus people in transition can go
    You are missing the point. He was in the entrance of the building exposing himself. A private cubicle for people who are actually transitioning is fine.
    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    Some trans extremists have accused lesbians of being transphobic because they won't have sex with men who still have penises etc but who claim they are women.

    When I was growing up, if you didn't want to sleep with a man you sometimes got the retort that you must therefore be a lesbian (rather than a woman with good taste and eyes to see).

    And if you were a lesbian you were often told that sex with whatever slimy male git was trying to get you into bed would "convert" you.

    Now we're getting lesbians accused of being transphobic because they don't want penises thrust into them. It's an old male bullying story - dressed up in different language.
    One gathers the impression that the broader agenda is that (1) of course people can be whatever they want to be, and consequently (2) biological sex has to be dismissed as irrelevant, because it is an obstacle to (1).

    At the end of that road lies the eradication of sexual orientation - because if one is required to accept that trans men are men and trans women are women without any qualification, then, for example, a gay man who dismisses a trans man is a sexual partner is transphobic, unforgiveable and must be cancelled.

    The sort of people who champion this kind of radical equality agenda are invariably the same types who bore on endlessly about diversity, but the two concepts are mutually exclusive. People aren't all functionally identical and shouldn't be treated as such.
    I suspect there are about three people on Earth who think this way, but frustratingly they get all the re-tweets.
    Sadly I suspect there are great deal more than three of them - but yes, they also get a disproportionate amount of attention.
    Twitter is a megaphone for idiots and companies are weak and pathetic so they give in as the RA did.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,884
    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    And yet it is the logical consequence of self-id gender ideology.
    No it isn't. Because they never have to sleep with anyone they don't want to. For whatever reason.
    They don't. But they are being accused of transphobia and attacked. It is one reason why some lesbian groups have set up away from Stonewall and in opposition to it, precisely because they are worried about the consequences of self-id for lesbians.

    This is a real issue for lesbians who feel that the demands of men wishing to transition are taking precedence over the rights of women and lesbians in particular.
    I suspect we are largely in agreement here.

    If a man wants to dress as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man want to live as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man wants to take part in women's sporting events that are restricted to women that is a problem. However he/she wishes to self identify, he/she does not qualify. The weight lifting thing in the Olympics is absurd.
    If a man wants to make use of "safe spaces" for women such as toilets, prisons, changing rooms there is a conflict of rights but in my view that conflict should be resolved in favour of those born with the sex of a women if they are at risk. That is why those spaces exist.

    But no one, ever, is obliged to have sex with anyone else. That is all I was saying.
    The weightlifting thing is a bit more nuanced than simply being about “self-Id” (although I agree in general). The rules require the suppression of testosterone levels to female “limits” for a period of time (1 year?). The complaints is that the advantages a man get in general (through puberty etc) are permanent and significant. So it is attempting to regulate/allow fair competition for something which can’t be regulated away.
    The simple answer of course is just introduce a third competition category...male female and trans
    Isn't needed, the male category in sports should always be 'open'. Can't think of any sport where being female is an advantage - it's the female cat that needs to be protected as 'athlete deemed female', 'born female'.
    The problem with testosterone limits is athletes who are deemed female and have not gone any sort of sex change operation (Semenya) then have to supress their natural T levels. Perhaps Semenya shouldn't be deemed female for sporting competition purposes but she is and if she is then she shouldn't have to supress her natural advantage of higher T.
    I included transgender because of the following:

    If you allow trans M to F into female sports it is unfair to women
    If you make all trans enter male sport then it is unfair to F to M transgenders
    The issue is the number of competitive (In any direction) trans sports people is so tiny that Laurel Hubbard is basically competing against herself in the weightlifting for example.
    It is worth noting that Trans people have been permitted in the Olympics for over a decade, so it does seem that hordes of men declaring themselves as women in order to participate in women's events is rather a non-issue.
    Are hordes the problem though....does it not become a problem if in most sports the top female athelete is trans, that doesn't require hordes
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    I'd say you're the one letting it all hang out.

    The "it" being pig ignorant, supercilious bigotry.
    I'll bite.

    Do you think that a man should be allowed to do this?
    I think you are approaching this from the wrong end (ahem, as it were)

    I would say that women have a reasonable right to privacy. But there should also be unisex facilities (with individual cubicles) where both sexes plus people in transition can go
    If you ever swim at the Olympic swimming pool in Stratford, they have perhaps the best facilities yet. It's a dense environment, but everyone has an individual changing cubicle, so these issues simply don't exist. When I went there I was really impressed.

    Oh yeah, and I loved the 50 Meter pool.
    That’s the way we are going. Inefficient use of space, but so be it. That said the original article was about a spa, and half the fun there is the lounging around
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646
    alex_ said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    And yet it is the logical consequence of self-id gender ideology.
    No it isn't. Because they never have to sleep with anyone they don't want to. For whatever reason.
    They don't. But they are being accused of transphobia and attacked. It is one reason why some lesbian groups have set up away from Stonewall and in opposition to it, precisely because they are worried about the consequences of self-id for lesbians.

    This is a real issue for lesbians who feel that the demands of men wishing to transition are taking precedence over the rights of women and lesbians in particular.
    I suspect we are largely in agreement here.

    If a man wants to dress as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man want to live as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man wants to take part in women's sporting events that are restricted to women that is a problem. However he/she wishes to self identify, he/she does not qualify. The weight lifting thing in the Olympics is absurd.
    If a man wants to make use of "safe spaces" for women such as toilets, prisons, changing rooms there is a conflict of rights but in my view that conflict should be resolved in favour of those born with the sex of a women if they are at risk. That is why those spaces exist.

    But no one, ever, is obliged to have sex with anyone else. That is all I was saying.
    The weightlifting thing is a bit more nuanced than simply being about “self-Id” (although I agree in general). The rules require the suppression of testosterone levels to female “limits” for a period of time (1 year?). The complaints is that the advantages a man get in general (through puberty etc) are permanent and significant. So it is attempting to regulate/allow fair competition for something which can’t be regulated away.
    The simple answer of course is just introduce a third competition category...male female and trans
    Isn't needed, the male category in sports should always be 'open'. Can't think of any sport where being female is an advantage* - it's the female cat that needs to be protected as 'athlete deemed female', 'born female'.
    The problem with testosterone limits is athletes who are deemed female and have not gone any sort of sex change operation (Semenya) then have to supress their natural T levels. Perhaps Semenya shouldn't be deemed female for sporting competition purposes but she is and if she is then she shouldn't have to supress her natural advantage of higher T.

    * It's equal footing in equestrianism and I checked the marathon 10k swim times, men are quicker even though the longer the distance the narrower the gap particularly in swimming.
    The only sports where men and women compete on equal terms involve other equipment, the use of which is the primary skill of the event. So at the Olympics we have the equestrian and sailing events, and also motorsports and air sports.
    Sailing is separate men’s/women’s
    Yes, I slightly misread that - the mixed events are the same idea as mixed doubles tennis events. It’s only the multihull event where there’s no gendered restrictions on the crew.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_sailing_classes
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    Remarkable interview with Bill Barr.

    Even compares Trump to a scene from Doctor Strangelove.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/06/william-barrs-trump-administration-attorney-general/619298/
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,541

    Spent a few hours phone canvassing in Batley and Spen this weekend, finding a lot of people answering this time (unlike last, when the footie was on). I was being steered by the system to the don't knows/won't says/undecideds/ who tend to be a tough gig. Some notes:

    * Kim Leadbeater has a genuine personal following. Nobody mentioned her being the sister of Jo Cox, but I I got nearly a dozen voters saying they knew her, knew her family, etc. One said he usually voted Tory but was probably going for her, as she'd "really represent the area", and an ex-Kipper was giving her a personal vote. But the Tory candidate Ryan Stephenson is respected too and I encountered people weighing up personal preference.

    * Interest in Galloway remains undetectable to my eyes (and I've been doing this stuff for 50 years), and people who mentioned him did it with contempt. One voter with a Pakistani name said, "He is an imposter, he is no more interested in Muslims than I am the Pope." He's definitely not going to win, or outpoll Labour, and I'm scaling back my guesstimate from 9% to 6%. I did get one voter who was switching from Labour to "Green Socialist".

    * There's a LOT of interest. Nobody told me not to bother them, mind my own business, etc. Don't knows still exist but mostly in the sense of genuinely wavering, not non-voters in disguise. Quite a few wanted to discuss it, which is unusual in my phone canvassing experience.

    * Nobody mentioned Hancock etc., though one said "Some of these blokes who were on TV this week for the Government maybe need taking down a peg or two."

    * Some of the media reports from journalists visiting from London suggest that Batley is a grim area full of bigoted WWC and radical Muslims. That's not my impression at all. Going by the people I talked to, it sounds a nice place.

    Overall - all anecdotal, too varied to say. But my impression is that Labour is narrowing the gap a bit - probably not quite enough, though. If we do win it'll be much more to do with Kim than the national scene.

    Great if this comes to pass. However, I get the impression sometimes that you are very much a glass half full kind of a guy. My fear is the glass is half full of Galloway's acidic urine.
    The glass half full vs half empty argument is always pointless.

    The real answer is another question - "Whose round is it?"
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    “You know, you only have five weeks, Mr. President, after an election to make legal challenges,” Barr said. “This would have taken a crackerjack team with a really coherent and disciplined strategy. Instead, you have a clown show. No self-respecting lawyer is going anywhere near it. It’s just a joke. That’s why you are where you are.”

    Interestingly, Trump didn’t argue when Barr told him that his “clown show” legal team had wasted time. In fact, he said, “You may be right about that.”
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,240
    Surprised that's not a yellow for the Portugese player, the fact he hurt his foot going in on the challenge doesn't change that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,820

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Posted without comment.

    A man flew into a violent rage during a sexual encounter with a transgender woman.

    Suhel Sood repeatedly punched the victim, slammed her head onto a washing machine, and ordered the victim to clean up her own blood after discovering she had male genitals.

    Now Sood, 34, who was fuelled by booze and cocaine, has been jailed for 16 months.

    Reading Crown Court heard the victim had arrived at a party with her boyfriend before ending up in a room alone with Sood.

    She performed a sex act on him, before Sood switched on the light and shouted 'you're a man' before attacking her and calling her a 'dog', the Mirror reports.

    "This assault arose entirely from Mr Sood discovering that she was transgender and thereafter assaulting her," Oliver Weetch, prosecuting, said.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/thug-brutally-attacked-beautiful-woman-20883241

    While obviously the assault is a criminal act and should be severely punished, under British law there is a concept of rape by deception

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

    Though this would sound like sexual assault by deception. See case 2 in the Wikipedia link.
    If you deceive someone over a sexual matter and get a kicking for so doing, I can't say I have much sympathy. The law takes a different view...

    How many guys would not react violently when they had been so deceived..?
    I would say that both are criminal acts.

    Someone else being a criminal doesn't excuse a criminal act against them, except in reasonable self defence.
    A comparable situation was described by The Kinks in their 1970 hit single Lola. No violence ensued.
    It does seem to be quite a common male fantasy, witness Alan Partridge on the subject of Ladyboys.

    https://youtu.be/_7g_Zwx9Mak
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646

    Remarkable interview with Bill Barr.

    Even compares Trump to a scene from Doctor Strangelove.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/06/william-barrs-trump-administration-attorney-general/619298/

    I always see Bill Barr written down, and think it says Bill Burr.

    They’re both comedians, but only one of them intentionally so.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Cookie said:

    The summer holidays are happening at the right time.

    Tens of thousands of pupils are being sent home to isolate as Covid cases in the young soar to their highest level since January, amid warnings that more schools will have to close.

    The number of outbreaks in schools and colleges jumped from 96 to 148, a rise of 54 per cent, in the week to June 20. It was the highest weekly number of outbreaks reported to Public Health England since December.

    School closures cause chaos for working parents, who have endured 15 months of academic mayhem, including weeks of home schooling.

    Disruption threatens what is many children’s favourite term, with sports days, end-of-year parties, leaving ceremonies and plays.

    The latest government dashboard figures show a 70 per cent weekly rise among children aged five to nine testing positive for Covid-19, mostly for the Delta variant first identified in India, and a 56 per cent jump among children aged 10-14. More than 16,100 pupils were absent from school with a suspected case of Covid in the third week of June, up from 10,600 seven days earlier.

    About 214,000 pupils were self-isolating at home due to “potential contact” with an infected person, up from 71,900 the week before.

    Kevin Courtney, joint general secretary of the biggest teachers’ union, the National Education Union, said there was “every prospect of many more children self-isolating”, with cases expected to double three times before the end of term in July.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/school-chaos-as-coronavirus-cases-up-70-in-week-8nrl6k8h5

    We could really do to stop the approach of keeping the whole class of for ten days - regardless of whether any of the others test negative - if one person tests negative. I currently have a negative-tested 11 year old at home in that category. Her year 6 residential should be starting tomorrow, but with the whole year sel-isolating, obviously isn't.
    Unfortunately the NEU are one of the leading voices advocating this shit.
    It's presumably too late to change policy with the holidays either already here or just around the corner, and not worth the upheaval - but there will need to be significant change before the kids start going back, which is the middle of August in Scotland.

    Living with the virus and resuming normality, which is meant to be the endpoint of all of this, necessitates doing away with blanket self-isolation for close contacts of positive cases, in all circumstances but most especially in schools. Children have already suffered hugely from these policies, and we've reached the point where they're doing far more harm to masses of youngsters and their education than the residual good in terms of slowing down transmission of the virus marginally.

    Alternatively, if things are left where they stand then the constant merry-go-round of panic, mass isolation and home learning will simply resume in August/September and continue ad infinitum. How can that be sensible?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,363
    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    I'll probably set off a Kinabalu alert, but I don't believe that lesbians can have penises.
    Everyone seemed to have missed the point of my original comment… it wasn’t meant to be taken seriously… merely an opportunity opening up…
    Nor mine. :smile:

    But look, seriously, all this nonsense about trans people being talked. C'mon.

    Not so much you @Cyclefree - we'll do this one properly some time. I agree and disagree with you.
    The only one talking bollocks about trans women is you. Everyone else has pretty much said no problem except they cant impinge on womens safe spaces till they have been cut. It is only you arguing any different
    "till they have been cut" - right.
    Yes till then they still have male genitalia and I have every sympathy for women not wanting it waved in front of them....why do you think women don't get to choose not to see it and that makes them bad? Oh right yes because transgender now is higher on the totem pole in the lefty world that women so women just have to lump it correct?
    Not at all. That's really not where I'm coming from. Neither extreme should be allowed to define this debate.

    My view is the vast vast majority of people who wish to change gender are doing it for the serious and genuine reason that they feel they ARE the target gender and need to have this validated in order to have a shot at a decent life.

    There will be men who decide to become women in order to access female spaces and "wave their tackle around" (or worse) but we're talking about a tiny minority. When I hear the conversation being conducted as if this were the expected norm I know I'm hearing stuff based on paranoia and ignorance and prejudice. Which btw I don't mind that much. It's understandable because it's quite a bizarre area and very few of the people (usually men) who have so much to say on the anti-trans side of the debate either know any trans people or have made any effort to listen to them on youtube or whatever.

    What does bug me more is when I hear people (again men) who can usually be found on the reactionary dinosaur side of the gender equality debate suddenly discover their burning inner feminist and now can't sleep for worrying about female empowerment and women's sport and all the rest of it. They are often the very same units who have also just discovered their 'gay rights warrior' true inner self when it comes to talking about Muslims. That's annoying.

    But anyway, it's the football, which I'm into like a proper cis bloke, so I mustn't bang on.

    Executive Summary: There are issues and a need for limits and controls, but in general I think transitioning is a good thing for those who need to - crucial in fact - and it does others no harm. So the process should be made a hell of a lot easier than it is today.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    Hmmm, we might be in the by election result gets voided territory.

    See this thread.

    https://twitter.com/josiahmortimer/status/1409216843416485889
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    I'd say you're the one letting it all hang out.

    The "it" being pig ignorant, supercilious bigotry.
    I'll bite.

    Do you think that a man should be allowed to do this?
    I think you are approaching this from the wrong end (ahem, as it were)

    I would say that women have a reasonable right to privacy. But there should also be unisex facilities (with individual cubicles) where both sexes plus people in transition can go
    If you ever swim at the Olympic swimming pool in Stratford, they have perhaps the best facilities yet. It's a dense environment, but everyone has an individual changing cubicle, so these issues simply don't exist. When I went there I was really impressed.

    Oh yeah, and I loved the 50 Meter pool.
    That’s the way we are going. Inefficient use of space, but so be it. That said the original article was about a spa, and half the fun there is the lounging around
    Naff all use to any facilities that were built before this kind of consideration became a thing though. The cost of refurbishment would be immense.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of cash: I would be a lot more relaxed about forcing businesses to accept cash if the rules on opening bank accounts were no so byzantine. Yes, I know it's all anti money laundering, but the experience a friend of ours had was positively Byzantine.

    She's 21, a graduate of a top US University, that got accepted to do a Masters in London.

    She got the relevant visa, found a flat share, wired money over and arrived in the UK. First day, she went to go and open a bank account.

    You need to have evidence of a bank account in your home country.

    No problem. Here's my bank card and a print out of the statement.

    Print outs aren't acceptable because they don't meet AML standards.

    But the bank doesn't send me paper copies.

    Sorry, we can't open a bank account for you.

    Eventually she needed to get stuff Fedexed from the US to the UK so she could open an account which had negligible sums going through it.

    I have had a US bank account for 15 years.

    This year they insisted on extra security involving an SMS text. But they can’t send to an international bank account.

    So now, to improve security, I can’t access my account without getting my mother in law to do it for me…
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    Cookie said:

    The summer holidays are happening at the right time.

    Tens of thousands of pupils are being sent home to isolate as Covid cases in the young soar to their highest level since January, amid warnings that more schools will have to close.

    The number of outbreaks in schools and colleges jumped from 96 to 148, a rise of 54 per cent, in the week to June 20. It was the highest weekly number of outbreaks reported to Public Health England since December.

    School closures cause chaos for working parents, who have endured 15 months of academic mayhem, including weeks of home schooling.

    Disruption threatens what is many children’s favourite term, with sports days, end-of-year parties, leaving ceremonies and plays.

    The latest government dashboard figures show a 70 per cent weekly rise among children aged five to nine testing positive for Covid-19, mostly for the Delta variant first identified in India, and a 56 per cent jump among children aged 10-14. More than 16,100 pupils were absent from school with a suspected case of Covid in the third week of June, up from 10,600 seven days earlier.

    About 214,000 pupils were self-isolating at home due to “potential contact” with an infected person, up from 71,900 the week before.

    Kevin Courtney, joint general secretary of the biggest teachers’ union, the National Education Union, said there was “every prospect of many more children self-isolating”, with cases expected to double three times before the end of term in July.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/school-chaos-as-coronavirus-cases-up-70-in-week-8nrl6k8h5

    We could really do to stop the approach of keeping the whole class of for ten days - regardless of whether any of the others test negative - if one person tests negative. I currently have a negative-tested 11 year old at home in that category. Her year 6 residential should be starting tomorrow, but with the whole year sel-isolating, obviously isn't.
    Unfortunately the NEU are one of the leading voices advocating this shit.
    If it continues to doubles every week for the next 4 weeks before summer holidays, that would be 3.2 million kids home form school, and all the time with less benefit as more adults are vaccinated. this policy needs to change.
  • Nunu3Nunu3 Posts: 234
    kinabalu said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    I'd say you're the one letting it all hang out.

    The "it" being pig ignorant, supercilious bigotry.
    So you think its acceptable what the man did, do you? You would accept the invasion of womens spaces?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,442
    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    And yet it is the logical consequence of self-id gender ideology.
    No it isn't. Because they never have to sleep with anyone they don't want to. For whatever reason.
    They don't. But they are being accused of transphobia and attacked. It is one reason why some lesbian groups have set up away from Stonewall and in opposition to it, precisely because they are worried about the consequences of self-id for lesbians.

    This is a real issue for lesbians who feel that the demands of men wishing to transition are taking precedence over the rights of women and lesbians in particular.
    I suspect we are largely in agreement here.

    If a man wants to dress as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man want to live as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man wants to take part in women's sporting events that are restricted to women that is a problem. However he/she wishes to self identify, he/she does not qualify. The weight lifting thing in the Olympics is absurd.
    If a man wants to make use of "safe spaces" for women such as toilets, prisons, changing rooms there is a conflict of rights but in my view that conflict should be resolved in favour of those born with the sex of a women if they are at risk. That is why those spaces exist.

    But no one, ever, is obliged to have sex with anyone else. That is all I was saying.
    It is not quite that simple though is it. You meet someone in the bar you are attracted, you wine her and dine her over a couple of weeks then you find out she isn't a women/man depending on your gender.

    At what point does it become incumbent on someone to mention it before it becomes deception? You whether he or she may be spending money on someone that you wouldn't have done if you had known up front. This sort of thing is going to crop up and I fully expect lawsuits about it.
    The idea behind that is that this person should be wanting to have sex with you because you are spending money on them, as opposed to enjoying their company. That's wrong, bluntly. There is no quid pro quo outside prostitution.

    Of course not disclosing such an important thing about yourself is likely to destroy the friendship.
    Perhaps it is incombent upon the winer and diner to have asked.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,478
    Cookie said:

    The summer holidays are happening at the right time.

    Tens of thousands of pupils are being sent home to isolate as Covid cases in the young soar to their highest level since January, amid warnings that more schools will have to close.

    The number of outbreaks in schools and colleges jumped from 96 to 148, a rise of 54 per cent, in the week to June 20. It was the highest weekly number of outbreaks reported to Public Health England since December.

    School closures cause chaos for working parents, who have endured 15 months of academic mayhem, including weeks of home schooling.

    Disruption threatens what is many children’s favourite term, with sports days, end-of-year parties, leaving ceremonies and plays.

    The latest government dashboard figures show a 70 per cent weekly rise among children aged five to nine testing positive for Covid-19, mostly for the Delta variant first identified in India, and a 56 per cent jump among children aged 10-14. More than 16,100 pupils were absent from school with a suspected case of Covid in the third week of June, up from 10,600 seven days earlier.

    About 214,000 pupils were self-isolating at home due to “potential contact” with an infected person, up from 71,900 the week before.

    Kevin Courtney, joint general secretary of the biggest teachers’ union, the National Education Union, said there was “every prospect of many more children self-isolating”, with cases expected to double three times before the end of term in July.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/school-chaos-as-coronavirus-cases-up-70-in-week-8nrl6k8h5

    We could really do to stop the approach of keeping the whole class of for ten days - regardless of whether any of the others test negative - if one person tests negative. I currently have a negative-tested 11 year old at home in that category. Her year 6 residential should be starting tomorrow, but with the whole year sel-isolating, obviously isn't.
    Unfortunately the NEU are one of the leading voices advocating this shit.
    That approach has only been happening in a minority of schools, and they get shouted at by the DfE. They want only those within 2 metres of a case to isolate.

    Which is even more stupid given the state of our school buildings and the lack of proper ventilation.

    Ultimately, the issue is the size of classes relative to size of classrooms. Epidemiologically they are a disaster zone, made worse by constant bungling and confusion at the centre. Unfortunately, there is no sign of either changing.

    However, the requirement to isolate for close contacts does look set to be abandoned soon, and is already being scaled back.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755
    Nunu3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    I'd say you're the one letting it all hang out.

    The "it" being pig ignorant, supercilious bigotry.
    So you think its acceptable what the man did, do you? You would accept the invasion of womens spaces?
    I still dream about Jo Rowling riding to the rescue with a British En Marche and saving the centre left from eating itself from idiocy.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,363
    Nunu3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    I'd say you're the one letting it all hang out.

    The "it" being pig ignorant, supercilious bigotry.
    So you think its acceptable what the man did, do you? You would accept the invasion of womens spaces?
    My post just now at 8:30 has a bash at what I think.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,699
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of cash: I would be a lot more relaxed about forcing businesses to accept cash if the rules on opening bank accounts were no so byzantine. Yes, I know it's all anti money laundering, but the experience a friend of ours had was positively Byzantine.

    She's 21, a graduate of a top US University, that got accepted to do a Masters in London.

    She got the relevant visa, found a flat share, wired money over and arrived in the UK. First day, she went to go and open a bank account.

    You need to have evidence of a bank account in your home country.

    No problem. Here's my bank card and a print out of the statement.

    Print outs aren't acceptable because they don't meet AML standards.

    But the bank doesn't send me paper copies.

    Sorry, we can't open a bank account for you.

    Eventually she needed to get stuff Fedexed from the US to the UK so she could open an account which had negligible sums going through it.

    I have had a US bank account for 15 years.

    This year they insisted on extra security involving an SMS text. But they can’t send to an international bank account.

    So now, to improve security, I can’t access my account without getting my mother in law to do it for me…
    American banking and American telecoms can't even be described as third rate.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,932
    What a goal! This half had been a serious disappointment. Until now.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,477
    Belgium really are Johnsonian Conservative- what a world- beating strike!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Foxy said:

    Posted without comment.

    A man flew into a violent rage during a sexual encounter with a transgender woman.

    Suhel Sood repeatedly punched the victim, slammed her head onto a washing machine, and ordered the victim to clean up her own blood after discovering she had male genitals.

    Now Sood, 34, who was fuelled by booze and cocaine, has been jailed for 16 months.

    Reading Crown Court heard the victim had arrived at a party with her boyfriend before ending up in a room alone with Sood.

    She performed a sex act on him, before Sood switched on the light and shouted 'you're a man' before attacking her and calling her a 'dog', the Mirror reports.

    "This assault arose entirely from Mr Sood discovering that she was transgender and thereafter assaulting her," Oliver Weetch, prosecuting, said.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/thug-brutally-attacked-beautiful-woman-20883241

    While obviously the assault is a criminal act and should be severely punished, under British law there is a concept of rape by deception

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

    Though this would sound like sexual assault by deception. See case 2 in the Wikipedia link.
    If you deceive someone over a sexual matter and get a kicking for so doing, I can't say I have much sympathy. The law takes a different view...

    How many guys would not react violently when they had been so deceived..?
    I wouldn’t punch someone repeatedly and slam their head into a washing machine. Assault is assault, regardless of motivation
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of cash: I would be a lot more relaxed about forcing businesses to accept cash if the rules on opening bank accounts were no so byzantine. Yes, I know it's all anti money laundering, but the experience a friend of ours had was positively Byzantine.

    She's 21, a graduate of a top US University, that got accepted to do a Masters in London.

    She got the relevant visa, found a flat share, wired money over and arrived in the UK. First day, she went to go and open a bank account.

    You need to have evidence of a bank account in your home country.

    No problem. Here's my bank card and a print out of the statement.

    Print outs aren't acceptable because they don't meet AML standards.

    But the bank doesn't send me paper copies.

    Sorry, we can't open a bank account for you.

    Eventually she needed to get stuff Fedexed from the US to the UK so she could open an account which had negligible sums going through it.

    I have had a US bank account for 15 years.

    This year they insisted on extra security involving an SMS text. But they can’t send to an international bank account.

    So now, to improve security, I can’t access my account without getting my mother in law to do it for me…
    An international phone number?

    I have a similar issue with a UK bank.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,183
    DavidL said:

    What a goal! This half had been a serious disappointment. Until now.

    If ever a game needed a goal, it's this one.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,057
    edited June 2021
    Batley & Spen – the Standard reports police are investigating attacks on Labour activists.

    Labour activists in the Batley and Spen by-election have been pelted with eggs and kicked in the head while on the campaign trail, the region’s mayor has said.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/tracy-brabin-labour-batley-west-yorkshire-keir-starmer-b942884.html
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    I'll probably set off a Kinabalu alert, but I don't believe that lesbians can have penises.
    Everyone seemed to have missed the point of my original comment… it wasn’t meant to be taken seriously… merely an opportunity opening up…
    Nor mine. :smile:

    But look, seriously, all this nonsense about trans people being talked. C'mon.

    Not so much you @Cyclefree - we'll do this one properly some time. I agree and disagree with you.
    The only one talking bollocks about trans women is you. Everyone else has pretty much said no problem except they cant impinge on womens safe spaces till they have been cut. It is only you arguing any different
    "till they have been cut" - right.
    Yes till then they still have male genitalia and I have every sympathy for women not wanting it waved in front of them....why do you think women don't get to choose not to see it and that makes them bad? Oh right yes because transgender now is higher on the totem pole in the lefty world that women so women just have to lump it correct?
    Not at all. That's really not where I'm coming from. Neither extreme should be allowed to define this debate.

    My view is the vast vast majority of people who wish to change gender are doing it for the serious and genuine reason that they feel they ARE the target gender and need to have this validated in order to have a shot at a decent life.

    There will be men who decide to become women in order to access female spaces and "wave their tackle around" (or worse) but we're talking about a tiny minority. When I hear the conversation being conducted as if this were the expected norm I know I'm hearing stuff based on paranoia and ignorance and prejudice. Which btw I don't mind that much. It's understandable because it's quite a bizarre area and very few of the people (usually men) who have so much to say on the anti-trans side of the debate either know any trans people or have made any effort to listen to them on youtube or whatever.

    What does bug me more is when I hear people (again men) who can usually be found on the reactionary dinosaur side of the gender equality debate suddenly discover their burning inner feminist and now can't sleep for worrying about female empowerment and women's sport and all the rest of it. They are often the very same units who have also just discovered their 'gay rights warrior' true inner self when it comes to talking about Muslims. That's annoying.

    But anyway, it's the football, which I'm into like a proper cis bloke, so I mustn't bang on.

    Executive Summary: There are issues and a need for limits and controls, but in general I think transitioning is a good thing for those who need to - crucial in fact - and it does others no harm. So the process should be made a hell of a lot easier than it is today.
    Like a text from someone who knows they’re in the wrong, it just goes on too long
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    Hmmm, we might be in the by election result gets voided territory.

    See this thread.

    https://twitter.com/josiahmortimer/status/1409216843416485889

    How simple/easy is it to get an election voided?


    What if I was not involved in the election, but tolled my mate, don't vote for X because.... , that fine, but what if I whet to his house to have a chat and he is not there so I leave a note, and at the bottom, I say P.S. don't vote for X because.... , still fine? or what if the note was only saying don't vote X because.... , still fine? or what if I printed it out.... what if I printed out a few, and put one though my mate door, but got confused and it went to the wrong house?

    I mean, if three is an election going on and one side thought they were going to lose, but might win if they had more time, could 'somebody' create a non-imprinted leaflet cruising there own candidate and distribute a few and then say, we must void it now? they would be in trouble if caught, but hard to catch I would have thought.

    (Not suggesting that's what has happened here, Big parties are not incline to take risks and get the bad PR)

    but how does the law stack up? is it only valid if the election is close?
  • Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of cash: I would be a lot more relaxed about forcing businesses to accept cash if the rules on opening bank accounts were no so byzantine. Yes, I know it's all anti money laundering, but the experience a friend of ours had was positively Byzantine.

    She's 21, a graduate of a top US University, that got accepted to do a Masters in London.

    She got the relevant visa, found a flat share, wired money over and arrived in the UK. First day, she went to go and open a bank account.

    You need to have evidence of a bank account in your home country.

    No problem. Here's my bank card and a print out of the statement.

    Print outs aren't acceptable because they don't meet AML standards.

    But the bank doesn't send me paper copies.

    Sorry, we can't open a bank account for you.

    Eventually she needed to get stuff Fedexed from the US to the UK so she could open an account which had negligible sums going through it.

    I have had a US bank account for 15 years.

    This year they insisted on extra security involving an SMS text. But they can’t send to an international bank account.

    So now, to improve security, I can’t access my account without getting my mother in law to do it for me…
    An international phone number?

    I have a similar issue with a UK bank.
    I t also used to be a lot tougher,

    I moved from the states to London back in the 90s. I had to work my way up from a post office account to a building society account to - triumphantly, a decade later - a current account at Lloyds TSB.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Batley & Spen – the Standard reports police are investigating attacks on Labour activists.

    Labour activists in the Batley and Spen by-election have been pelted with eggs and kicked in the head while on the campaign trail, the region’s mayor has said.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/tracy-brabin-labour-batley-west-yorkshire-keir-starmer-b942884.html

    Galloway really is scum with the hatred he whips up.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423

    Batley & Spen – the Standard reports police are investigating attacks on Labour activists.

    Labour activists in the Batley and Spen by-election have been pelted with eggs and kicked in the head while on the campaign trail, the region’s mayor has said.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/tracy-brabin-labour-batley-west-yorkshire-keir-starmer-b942884.html

    This by-election really has been a shitshow, hasn't it? Regardless of the result.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,057
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of cash: I would be a lot more relaxed about forcing businesses to accept cash if the rules on opening bank accounts were no so byzantine. Yes, I know it's all anti money laundering, but the experience a friend of ours had was positively Byzantine.

    She's 21, a graduate of a top US University, that got accepted to do a Masters in London.

    She got the relevant visa, found a flat share, wired money over and arrived in the UK. First day, she went to go and open a bank account.

    You need to have evidence of a bank account in your home country.

    No problem. Here's my bank card and a print out of the statement.

    Print outs aren't acceptable because they don't meet AML standards.

    But the bank doesn't send me paper copies.

    Sorry, we can't open a bank account for you.

    Eventually she needed to get stuff Fedexed from the US to the UK so she could open an account which had negligible sums going through it.

    I have had a US bank account for 15 years.

    This year they insisted on extra security involving an SMS text. But they can’t send to an international bank account.

    So now, to improve security, I can’t access my account without getting my mother in law to do it for me…
    An international phone number?

    I have a similar issue with a UK bank.
    See if the bank will accept alternative (and better, since text messages can be spoofed) 2FA methods such as hardware keys.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,442
    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    And yet it is the logical consequence of self-id gender ideology.
    No it isn't. Because they never have to sleep with anyone they don't want to. For whatever reason.
    They don't. But they are being accused of transphobia and attacked. It is one reason why some lesbian groups have set up away from Stonewall and in opposition to it, precisely because they are worried about the consequences of self-id for lesbians.

    This is a real issue for lesbians who feel that the demands of men wishing to transition are taking precedence over the rights of women and lesbians in particular.
    I suspect we are largely in agreement here.

    If a man wants to dress as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man want to live as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man wants to take part in women's sporting events that are restricted to women that is a problem. However he/she wishes to self identify, he/she does not qualify. The weight lifting thing in the Olympics is absurd.
    If a man wants to make use of "safe spaces" for women such as toilets, prisons, changing rooms there is a conflict of rights but in my view that conflict should be resolved in favour of those born with the sex of a women if they are at risk. That is why those spaces exist.

    But no one, ever, is obliged to have sex with anyone else. That is all I was saying.
    It is not quite that simple though is it. You meet someone in the bar you are attracted, you wine her and dine her over a couple of weeks then you find out she isn't a women/man depending on your gender.

    At what point does it become incumbent on someone to mention it before it becomes deception? You whether he or she may be spending money on someone that you wouldn't have done if you had known up front. This sort of thing is going to crop up and I fully expect lawsuits about it.
    The idea behind that is that this person should be wanting to have sex with you because you are spending money on them, as opposed to enjoying their company. That's wrong, bluntly. There is no quid pro quo outside prostitution.

    Of course not disclosing such an important thing about yourself is likely to destroy the friendship.
    No that is totally not the argument, yes you are doing it to persuade them into bed which they are free to refuse. However if you are spending money that you wouldn't have spent if you had known they were not the gender they present as then its deception. I am sure we have all wined and dined people in the hope and it didnt work out......when however it had no chance of working out because someone didn't mention something fairly major then its deceptive. Both sides know what is going on during the wining and dining and know where its intended to lead.
    It's not deception. It's imagined deception to avoid feeling stupid.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,363
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    I'll probably set off a Kinabalu alert, but I don't believe that lesbians can have penises.
    Everyone seemed to have missed the point of my original comment… it wasn’t meant to be taken seriously… merely an opportunity opening up…
    Nor mine. :smile:

    But look, seriously, all this nonsense about trans people being talked. C'mon.

    Not so much you @Cyclefree - we'll do this one properly some time. I agree and disagree with you.
    The only one talking bollocks about trans women is you. Everyone else has pretty much said no problem except they cant impinge on womens safe spaces till they have been cut. It is only you arguing any different
    "till they have been cut" - right.
    Yes till then they still have male genitalia and I have every sympathy for women not wanting it waved in front of them....why do you think women don't get to choose not to see it and that makes them bad? Oh right yes because transgender now is higher on the totem pole in the lefty world that women so women just have to lump it correct?
    Not at all. That's really not where I'm coming from. Neither extreme should be allowed to define this debate.

    My view is the vast vast majority of people who wish to change gender are doing it for the serious and genuine reason that they feel they ARE the target gender and need to have this validated in order to have a shot at a decent life.

    There will be men who decide to become women in order to access female spaces and "wave their tackle around" (or worse) but we're talking about a tiny minority. When I hear the conversation being conducted as if this were the expected norm I know I'm hearing stuff based on paranoia and ignorance and prejudice. Which btw I don't mind that much. It's understandable because it's quite a bizarre area and very few of the people (usually men) who have so much to say on the anti-trans side of the debate either know any trans people or have made any effort to listen to them on youtube or whatever.

    What does bug me more is when I hear people (again men) who can usually be found on the reactionary dinosaur side of the gender equality debate suddenly discover their burning inner feminist and now can't sleep for worrying about female empowerment and women's sport and all the rest of it. They are often the very same units who have also just discovered their 'gay rights warrior' true inner self when it comes to talking about Muslims. That's annoying.

    But anyway, it's the football, which I'm into like a proper cis bloke, so I mustn't bang on.

    Executive Summary: There are issues and a need for limits and controls, but in general I think transitioning is a good thing for those who need to - crucial in fact - and it does others no harm. So the process should be made a hell of a lot easier than it is today.
    Like a text from someone who knows they’re in the wrong, it just goes on too long
    isam = anti muslim bigot

    Better?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230
    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    I'll probably set off a Kinabalu alert, but I don't believe that lesbians can have penises.
    Everyone seemed to have missed the point of my original comment… it wasn’t meant to be taken seriously… merely an opportunity opening up…
    Nor mine. :smile:

    But look, seriously, all this nonsense about trans people being talked. C'mon.

    Not so much you @Cyclefree - we'll do this one properly some time. I agree and disagree with you.
    The only one talking bollocks about trans women is you. Everyone else has pretty much said no problem except they cant impinge on womens safe spaces till they have been cut. It is only you arguing any different
    "till they have been cut" - right.
    I find this view - which is surprisingly common - quite bizarre. One's particular dirty bits are not relevant. The question is whether places such as loos are binary by gender or by sex. I argue for the latter though the tide is moving towards to the former.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    BigRich said:

    Hmmm, we might be in the by election result gets voided territory.

    See this thread.

    https://twitter.com/josiahmortimer/status/1409216843416485889

    How simple/easy is it to get an election voided?


    What if I was not involved in the election, but tolled my mate, don't vote for X because.... , that fine, but what if I whet to his house to have a chat and he is not there so I leave a note, and at the bottom, I say P.S. don't vote for X because.... , still fine? or what if the note was only saying don't vote X because.... , still fine? or what if I printed it out.... what if I printed out a few, and put one though my mate door, but got confused and it went to the wrong house?

    I mean, if three is an election going on and one side thought they were going to lose, but might win if they had more time, could 'somebody' create a non-imprinted leaflet cruising there own candidate and distribute a few and then say, we must void it now? they would be in trouble if caught, but hard to catch I would have thought.

    (Not suggesting that's what has happened here, Big parties are not incline to take risks and get the bad PR)

    but how does the law stack up? is it only valid if the election is close?
    Very rare, only times in recent memory have election results been voided is Winchester in 1997 and Oldham East & Saddleworth in 2010.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,478
    BigRich said:

    Hmmm, we might be in the by election result gets voided territory.

    See this thread.

    https://twitter.com/josiahmortimer/status/1409216843416485889

    How simple/easy is it to get an election voided?


    What if I was not involved in the election, but tolled my mate, don't vote for X because.... , that fine, but what if I whet to his house to have a chat and he is not there so I leave a note, and at the bottom, I say P.S. don't vote for X because.... , still fine? or what if the note was only saying don't vote X because.... , still fine? or what if I printed it out.... what if I printed out a few, and put one though my mate door, but got confused and it went to the wrong house?

    I mean, if three is an election going on and one side thought they were going to lose, but might win if they had more time, could 'somebody' create a non-imprinted leaflet cruising there own candidate and distribute a few and then say, we must void it now? they would be in trouble if caught, but hard to catch I would have thought.

    (Not suggesting that's what has happened here, Big parties are not incline to take risks and get the bad PR)

    but how does the law stack up? is it only valid if the election is close?
    It happened in Manchester to Phil Woolas, for fairly similar reasons.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11701978
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2021
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    I'll probably set off a Kinabalu alert, but I don't believe that lesbians can have penises.
    Everyone seemed to have missed the point of my original comment… it wasn’t meant to be taken seriously… merely an opportunity opening up…
    Nor mine. :smile:

    But look, seriously, all this nonsense about trans people being talked. C'mon.

    Not so much you @Cyclefree - we'll do this one properly some time. I agree and disagree with you.
    The only one talking bollocks about trans women is you. Everyone else has pretty much said no problem except they cant impinge on womens safe spaces till they have been cut. It is only you arguing any different
    "till they have been cut" - right.
    Yes till then they still have male genitalia and I have every sympathy for women not wanting it waved in front of them....why do you think women don't get to choose not to see it and that makes them bad? Oh right yes because transgender now is higher on the totem pole in the lefty world that women so women just have to lump it correct?
    Not at all. That's really not where I'm coming from. Neither extreme should be allowed to define this debate.

    My view is the vast vast majority of people who wish to change gender are doing it for the serious and genuine reason that they feel they ARE the target gender and need to have this validated in order to have a shot at a decent life.

    There will be men who decide to become women in order to access female spaces and "wave their tackle around" (or worse) but we're talking about a tiny minority. When I hear the conversation being conducted as if this were the expected norm I know I'm hearing stuff based on paranoia and ignorance and prejudice. Which btw I don't mind that much. It's understandable because it's quite a bizarre area and very few of the people (usually men) who have so much to say on the anti-trans side of the debate either know any trans people or have made any effort to listen to them on youtube or whatever.

    What does bug me more is when I hear people (again men) who can usually be found on the reactionary dinosaur side of the gender equality debate suddenly discover their burning inner feminist and now can't sleep for worrying about female empowerment and women's sport and all the rest of it. They are often the very same units who have also just discovered their 'gay rights warrior' true inner self when it comes to talking about Muslims. That's annoying.

    But anyway, it's the football, which I'm into like a proper cis bloke, so I mustn't bang on.

    Executive Summary: There are issues and a need for limits and controls, but in general I think transitioning is a good thing for those who need to - crucial in fact - and it does others no harm. So the process should be made a hell of a lot easier than it is today.
    Like a text from someone who knows they’re in the wrong, it just goes on too long
    isam = anti muslim bigot

    Better?
    Haha 😂

    I’ve just pointed out the difficulty of trying to ride both horses - anti islamophobia and anti homophobia - whilst one of the defended groups is the most aggressive opponent of the other.

    That seems to = the person pointing it outs fault for noticing.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,017
    alex_ said:

    Batley & Spen – the Standard reports police are investigating attacks on Labour activists.

    Labour activists in the Batley and Spen by-election have been pelted with eggs and kicked in the head while on the campaign trail, the region’s mayor has said.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/tracy-brabin-labour-batley-west-yorkshire-keir-starmer-b942884.html

    Galloway really is scum with the hatred he whips up.
    How do you know it's his lot that are doing the acts spoken of? Could be the Tories or the Monster Raving Loonies for all one knows.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,240

    BigRich said:

    Hmmm, we might be in the by election result gets voided territory.

    See this thread.

    https://twitter.com/josiahmortimer/status/1409216843416485889

    How simple/easy is it to get an election voided?


    What if I was not involved in the election, but tolled my mate, don't vote for X because.... , that fine, but what if I whet to his house to have a chat and he is not there so I leave a note, and at the bottom, I say P.S. don't vote for X because.... , still fine? or what if the note was only saying don't vote X because.... , still fine? or what if I printed it out.... what if I printed out a few, and put one though my mate door, but got confused and it went to the wrong house?

    I mean, if three is an election going on and one side thought they were going to lose, but might win if they had more time, could 'somebody' create a non-imprinted leaflet cruising there own candidate and distribute a few and then say, we must void it now? they would be in trouble if caught, but hard to catch I would have thought.

    (Not suggesting that's what has happened here, Big parties are not incline to take risks and get the bad PR)

    but how does the law stack up? is it only valid if the election is close?
    Very rare, only times in recent memory have election results been voided is Winchester in 1997 and Oldham East & Saddleworth in 2010.
    If someone wanted to void a by-election what would prevent them putting out say 30,000 leaflets of this type ?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,656

    ping said:

    England’s side of the draw just got better.

    If we beat Germany, we’re in the final, hopefully!

    England are one of the leading claimants to the title of worst underachievers in world football. They'll probably flop against Germany, but failing that they'll almost certainly trip over their own shoelaces shortly thereafter.

    If England do make it to the final then it'll be the very first time in a major tournament since you know when - that storied event pre-dating the end of regular scheduled steam railway services in the UK, the Moon landings, and the invention of the microprocessor. So let's just say that the prospects don't seem particularly bright.
    Biggest underachievers in world football:

    1 Mexico
    2 Nigeria
    3 Scotland
    4 England
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,478
    Pulpstar said:

    BigRich said:

    Hmmm, we might be in the by election result gets voided territory.

    See this thread.

    https://twitter.com/josiahmortimer/status/1409216843416485889

    How simple/easy is it to get an election voided?


    What if I was not involved in the election, but tolled my mate, don't vote for X because.... , that fine, but what if I whet to his house to have a chat and he is not there so I leave a note, and at the bottom, I say P.S. don't vote for X because.... , still fine? or what if the note was only saying don't vote X because.... , still fine? or what if I printed it out.... what if I printed out a few, and put one though my mate door, but got confused and it went to the wrong house?

    I mean, if three is an election going on and one side thought they were going to lose, but might win if they had more time, could 'somebody' create a non-imprinted leaflet cruising there own candidate and distribute a few and then say, we must void it now? they would be in trouble if caught, but hard to catch I would have thought.

    (Not suggesting that's what has happened here, Big parties are not incline to take risks and get the bad PR)

    but how does the law stack up? is it only valid if the election is close?
    Very rare, only times in recent memory have election results been voided is Winchester in 1997 and Oldham East & Saddleworth in 2010.
    If someone wanted to void a by-election what would prevent them putting out say 30,000 leaflets of this type ?
    Doesn’t printing a political leaflet without the correct label it come with a very large fine?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,882
    Politics For All
    @PoliticsForAlI
    | BREAKING: Rishi Sunak has said he will not tolerate an extension of freedom day beyond July 19

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,820
    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    And yet it is the logical consequence of self-id gender ideology.
    No it isn't. Because they never have to sleep with anyone they don't want to. For whatever reason.
    They don't. But they are being accused of transphobia and attacked. It is one reason why some lesbian groups have set up away from Stonewall and in opposition to it, precisely because they are worried about the consequences of self-id for lesbians.

    This is a real issue for lesbians who feel that the demands of men wishing to transition are taking precedence over the rights of women and lesbians in particular.
    I suspect we are largely in agreement here.

    If a man wants to dress as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man want to live as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man wants to take part in women's sporting events that are restricted to women that is a problem. However he/she wishes to self identify, he/she does not qualify. The weight lifting thing in the Olympics is absurd.
    If a man wants to make use of "safe spaces" for women such as toilets, prisons, changing rooms there is a conflict of rights but in my view that conflict should be resolved in favour of those born with the sex of a women if they are at risk. That is why those spaces exist.

    But no one, ever, is obliged to have sex with anyone else. That is all I was saying.
    The weightlifting thing is a bit more nuanced than simply being about “self-Id” (although I agree in general). The rules require the suppression of testosterone levels to female “limits” for a period of time (1 year?). The complaints is that the advantages a man get in general (through puberty etc) are permanent and significant. So it is attempting to regulate/allow fair competition for something which can’t be regulated away.
    The simple answer of course is just introduce a third competition category...male female and trans
    Isn't needed, the male category in sports should always be 'open'. Can't think of any sport where being female is an advantage - it's the female cat that needs to be protected as 'athlete deemed female', 'born female'.
    The problem with testosterone limits is athletes who are deemed female and have not gone any sort of sex change operation (Semenya) then have to supress their natural T levels. Perhaps Semenya shouldn't be deemed female for sporting competition purposes but she is and if she is then she shouldn't have to supress her natural advantage of higher T.
    I included transgender because of the following:

    If you allow trans M to F into female sports it is unfair to women
    If you make all trans enter male sport then it is unfair to F to M transgenders
    The issue is the number of competitive (In any direction) trans sports people is so tiny that Laurel Hubbard is basically competing against herself in the weightlifting for example.
    It is worth noting that Trans people have been permitted in the Olympics for over a decade, so it does seem that hordes of men declaring themselves as women in order to participate in women's events is rather a non-issue.
    Are hordes the problem though....does it not become a problem if in most sports the top female athelete is trans, that doesn't require hordes
    Are there any?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    Pulpstar said:

    BigRich said:

    Hmmm, we might be in the by election result gets voided territory.

    See this thread.

    https://twitter.com/josiahmortimer/status/1409216843416485889

    How simple/easy is it to get an election voided?


    What if I was not involved in the election, but tolled my mate, don't vote for X because.... , that fine, but what if I whet to his house to have a chat and he is not there so I leave a note, and at the bottom, I say P.S. don't vote for X because.... , still fine? or what if the note was only saying don't vote X because.... , still fine? or what if I printed it out.... what if I printed out a few, and put one though my mate door, but got confused and it went to the wrong house?

    I mean, if three is an election going on and one side thought they were going to lose, but might win if they had more time, could 'somebody' create a non-imprinted leaflet cruising there own candidate and distribute a few and then say, we must void it now? they would be in trouble if caught, but hard to catch I would have thought.

    (Not suggesting that's what has happened here, Big parties are not incline to take risks and get the bad PR)

    but how does the law stack up? is it only valid if the election is close?
    Very rare, only times in recent memory have election results been voided is Winchester in 1997 and Oldham East & Saddleworth in 2010.
    If someone wanted to void a by-election what would prevent them putting out say 30,000 leaflets of this type ?
    A huge fine and potential prison sentence.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,363
    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    I'll probably set off a Kinabalu alert, but I don't believe that lesbians can have penises.
    Everyone seemed to have missed the point of my original comment… it wasn’t meant to be taken seriously… merely an opportunity opening up…
    Nor mine. :smile:

    But look, seriously, all this nonsense about trans people being talked. C'mon.

    Not so much you @Cyclefree - we'll do this one properly some time. I agree and disagree with you.
    The only one talking bollocks about trans women is you. Everyone else has pretty much said no problem except they cant impinge on womens safe spaces till they have been cut. It is only you arguing any different
    "till they have been cut" - right.
    I find this view - which is surprisingly common - quite bizarre. One's particular dirty bits are not relevant. The question is whether places such as loos are binary by gender or by sex. I argue for the latter though the tide is moving towards to the former.
    I think loos are a bit of a red herring tbh. Nobody is going to police loos by checking people's genitals and in any case there is just not in practice a problem with fake transwomen getting off on scaring women in toilets. Sports is probably the biggest issue imo.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,882
    Feels like the removal of Matt 'blinkers' Hancock was a key step to opening fully on 19th. Sounds like Sunak senses the wind changing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,478

    Politics For All
    @PoliticsForAlI
    | BREAKING: Rishi Sunak has said he will not tolerate an extension of freedom day beyond July 19

    Sunak, backed by Javid? That would be a formidable team to take on the nutters at Indie SAGE.

    With Hancock gone Gove would be isolated in arguing for longer.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646
    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    I'll probably set off a Kinabalu alert, but I don't believe that lesbians can have penises.
    Everyone seemed to have missed the point of my original comment… it wasn’t meant to be taken seriously… merely an opportunity opening up…
    Nor mine. :smile:

    But look, seriously, all this nonsense about trans people being talked. C'mon.

    Not so much you @Cyclefree - we'll do this one properly some time. I agree and disagree with you.
    The only one talking bollocks about trans women is you. Everyone else has pretty much said no problem except they cant impinge on womens safe spaces till they have been cut. It is only you arguing any different
    "till they have been cut" - right.
    I find this view - which is surprisingly common - quite bizarre. One's particular dirty bits are not relevant. The question is whether places such as loos are binary by gender or by sex. I argue for the latter though the tide is moving towards to the former.
    I think loos are a bit of a red herring tbh. Nobody is going to police loos by checking people's genitals and in any case there is just not in practice a problem with fake transwomen getting off on scaring women in toilets. Sports is probably the biggest issue imo.
    Prisons and refuges are the biggest issues.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,884
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    And yet it is the logical consequence of self-id gender ideology.
    No it isn't. Because they never have to sleep with anyone they don't want to. For whatever reason.
    They don't. But they are being accused of transphobia and attacked. It is one reason why some lesbian groups have set up away from Stonewall and in opposition to it, precisely because they are worried about the consequences of self-id for lesbians.

    This is a real issue for lesbians who feel that the demands of men wishing to transition are taking precedence over the rights of women and lesbians in particular.
    I suspect we are largely in agreement here.

    If a man wants to dress as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man want to live as a woman that is no problem.
    If a man wants to take part in women's sporting events that are restricted to women that is a problem. However he/she wishes to self identify, he/she does not qualify. The weight lifting thing in the Olympics is absurd.
    If a man wants to make use of "safe spaces" for women such as toilets, prisons, changing rooms there is a conflict of rights but in my view that conflict should be resolved in favour of those born with the sex of a women if they are at risk. That is why those spaces exist.

    But no one, ever, is obliged to have sex with anyone else. That is all I was saying.
    The weightlifting thing is a bit more nuanced than simply being about “self-Id” (although I agree in general). The rules require the suppression of testosterone levels to female “limits” for a period of time (1 year?). The complaints is that the advantages a man get in general (through puberty etc) are permanent and significant. So it is attempting to regulate/allow fair competition for something which can’t be regulated away.
    The simple answer of course is just introduce a third competition category...male female and trans
    Isn't needed, the male category in sports should always be 'open'. Can't think of any sport where being female is an advantage - it's the female cat that needs to be protected as 'athlete deemed female', 'born female'.
    The problem with testosterone limits is athletes who are deemed female and have not gone any sort of sex change operation (Semenya) then have to supress their natural T levels. Perhaps Semenya shouldn't be deemed female for sporting competition purposes but she is and if she is then she shouldn't have to supress her natural advantage of higher T.
    I included transgender because of the following:

    If you allow trans M to F into female sports it is unfair to women
    If you make all trans enter male sport then it is unfair to F to M transgenders
    The issue is the number of competitive (In any direction) trans sports people is so tiny that Laurel Hubbard is basically competing against herself in the weightlifting for example.
    It is worth noting that Trans people have been permitted in the Olympics for over a decade, so it does seem that hordes of men declaring themselves as women in order to participate in women's events is rather a non-issue.
    Are hordes the problem though....does it not become a problem if in most sports the top female athelete is trans, that doesn't require hordes
    Are there any?
    https://www.wired.com/story/the-glorious-victories-of-trans-athletes-are-shaking-up-sports/

    quote
    "two transgender athletes—Miller and another runner, Andraya Yearwood—“have amassed 15 different state championship titles that were once held by nine different girls across the state."
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768

    Politics For All
    @PoliticsForAlI
    | BREAKING: Rishi Sunak has said he will not tolerate an extension of freedom day beyond July 19

    That's the same account that said Zahawi was the new Health Secretary?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,699

    Politics For All
    @PoliticsForAlI
    | BREAKING: Rishi Sunak has said he will not tolerate an extension of freedom day beyond July 19

    Between the lines: we haven't got the money to extend it a day longer....
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited June 2021

    Politics For All
    @PoliticsForAlI
    | BREAKING: Rishi Sunak has said he will not tolerate an extension of freedom day beyond July 19

    Politics 4 All is a shit account of frequently unsourced bollocks or uncredited material.

    Even if this is accurate they've just lifted it from some other news provider.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,363
    edited June 2021
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    I'll probably set off a Kinabalu alert, but I don't believe that lesbians can have penises.
    Everyone seemed to have missed the point of my original comment… it wasn’t meant to be taken seriously… merely an opportunity opening up…
    Nor mine. :smile:

    But look, seriously, all this nonsense about trans people being talked. C'mon.

    Not so much you @Cyclefree - we'll do this one properly some time. I agree and disagree with you.
    The only one talking bollocks about trans women is you. Everyone else has pretty much said no problem except they cant impinge on womens safe spaces till they have been cut. It is only you arguing any different
    "till they have been cut" - right.
    Yes till then they still have male genitalia and I have every sympathy for women not wanting it waved in front of them....why do you think women don't get to choose not to see it and that makes them bad? Oh right yes because transgender now is higher on the totem pole in the lefty world that women so women just have to lump it correct?
    Not at all. That's really not where I'm coming from. Neither extreme should be allowed to define this debate.

    My view is the vast vast majority of people who wish to change gender are doing it for the serious and genuine reason that they feel they ARE the target gender and need to have this validated in order to have a shot at a decent life.

    There will be men who decide to become women in order to access female spaces and "wave their tackle around" (or worse) but we're talking about a tiny minority. When I hear the conversation being conducted as if this were the expected norm I know I'm hearing stuff based on paranoia and ignorance and prejudice. Which btw I don't mind that much. It's understandable because it's quite a bizarre area and very few of the people (usually men) who have so much to say on the anti-trans side of the debate either know any trans people or have made any effort to listen to them on youtube or whatever.

    What does bug me more is when I hear people (again men) who can usually be found on the reactionary dinosaur side of the gender equality debate suddenly discover their burning inner feminist and now can't sleep for worrying about female empowerment and women's sport and all the rest of it. They are often the very same units who have also just discovered their 'gay rights warrior' true inner self when it comes to talking about Muslims. That's annoying.

    But anyway, it's the football, which I'm into like a proper cis bloke, so I mustn't bang on.

    Executive Summary: There are issues and a need for limits and controls, but in general I think transitioning is a good thing for those who need to - crucial in fact - and it does others no harm. So the process should be made a hell of a lot easier than it is today.
    Like a text from someone who knows they’re in the wrong, it just goes on too long
    isam = anti muslim bigot

    Better?
    Haha 😂

    I’ve just pointed out the difficulty of trying to ride both horses - anti islamophobia and anti homophobia - whilst one of the defended groups is the most aggressive opponent of the other.

    That seems to = the person pointing it outs fault for noticing.
    A perfectly valid point. No probs with that.

    And in fact I was merely seeking to demonstrate to you (in a catchy way) that brevity does NOT equal truth.

    You are not free of anti-muslim prejudice - this is clear - but "anti muslim bigot" is way too saucy.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,883

    ping said:

    England’s side of the draw just got better.

    If we beat Germany, we’re in the final, hopefully!

    England are one of the leading claimants to the title of worst underachievers in world football. They'll probably flop against Germany, but failing that they'll almost certainly trip over their own shoelaces shortly thereafter.

    If England do make it to the final then it'll be the very first time in a major tournament since you know when - that storied event pre-dating the end of regular scheduled steam railway services in the UK, the Moon landings, and the invention of the microprocessor. So let's just say that the prospects don't seem particularly bright.
    Biggest underachievers in world football:

    1 Mexico
    2 Nigeria
    3 Scotland
    4 England
    Nah, the Netherlands are the worst. Never won a world cup, blessed with incredible footballing talent.

    Scotland aren't underachievers, they're just rubbish.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,478

    Politics For All
    @PoliticsForAlI
    | BREAKING: Rishi Sunak has said he will not tolerate an extension of freedom day beyond July 19

    That's the same account that said Zahawi was the new Health Secretary?
    Also in the Sun, for whatever that’s worth.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15405626/rishi-sunak-final-whistle-football-lockdown/
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,883

    Politics For All
    @PoliticsForAlI
    | BREAKING: Rishi Sunak has said he will not tolerate an extension of freedom day beyond July 19

    Nadim Zahavi is the new health secretary too, then.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,363
    edited June 2021
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    I'll probably set off a Kinabalu alert, but I don't believe that lesbians can have penises.
    Everyone seemed to have missed the point of my original comment… it wasn’t meant to be taken seriously… merely an opportunity opening up…
    Nor mine. :smile:

    But look, seriously, all this nonsense about trans people being talked. C'mon.

    Not so much you @Cyclefree - we'll do this one properly some time. I agree and disagree with you.
    The only one talking bollocks about trans women is you. Everyone else has pretty much said no problem except they cant impinge on womens safe spaces till they have been cut. It is only you arguing any different
    "till they have been cut" - right.
    I find this view - which is surprisingly common - quite bizarre. One's particular dirty bits are not relevant. The question is whether places such as loos are binary by gender or by sex. I argue for the latter though the tide is moving towards to the former.
    I think loos are a bit of a red herring tbh. Nobody is going to police loos by checking people's genitals and in any case there is just not in practice a problem with fake transwomen getting off on scaring women in toilets. Sports is probably the biggest issue imo.
    Prisons and refuges are the biggest issues.
    No - in practice it's sport. Bet you that's the one that ends up taking the most sorting out.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    edited June 2021
    Idiot innumerate journalist getting schooled....

    Okay, scientists and epidemiologists on Twitter, can someone explain this to me please? Who/what to believe? https://t.co/4HkvMCq31h

    -----

    Great opportunity to show slides from my methods class (1/n)

    https://twitter.com/alexandreafonso/status/1408698153935724546?s=19
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    The UK right wing press were so desperate to big up Le Pen as they see her as a vehicle to cause problems for the EU if she won the Presidency and her party has just won zero regions and has lost votes from the last elections.

    Some of her supporters aren’t happy as she’s tried to look less racist as a means to appear to a wider electorate and in fact she’s now not hateful enough for them so they stayed at home .

    Heart of stone not to laugh...
    Well, it looks like Le Pen has slipped from 27% to 20%.

    LREM got 7%

    God know what will happen in the next Presidential election.
    I think the conventional right will win.
    I hope so - but not at the cost of the doing what Macron has been doing. Stealing policies from Le Pen....
    I think next year's French elections could be quite exciting. I think both the Macron and Le Pen numbers are quite soft - and both for similar reasons. He has attempted to outflank her on the Right, while she has rowed back on a lot of her more populist policies. Both have therefore alienated a lot of their traditional supporters.

    If LR manage to find a charismatic candidate, then I think they could be in with a real shot.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,882

    Politics For All
    @PoliticsForAlI
    | BREAKING: Rishi Sunak has said he will not tolerate an extension of freedom day beyond July 19

    Between the lines: we haven't got the money to extend it a day longer....
    Well, we don't imho. Lockdown and serious restrictions are for dire emergency if at all and we are not in one any more.

    No doubt indie SAGE will be along in an hour or two to warn of a new variant that escapes light speed or something.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,183
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    I expect this sort of thing is coming to the UK..

    "A woman confronted the staff at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles after a man walked into the women's section with his genitals hanging out in front of girls. He identified as a "woman." The employees said he had a right to do that. The employees say that it's the law."

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1408997169344909313

    Get with the program gender critical women. This is the future. Bearded men explaining what it is to be a woman and what a woman is.
    As if we haven't had men telling us that for centuries. And exposing themselves to us as well. And behaving like perverts etc.

    Only now we're utterly fed up with it. So we say no to all this bullshit.
    Yes, it is awful and if women dare to dissent against this bullshit they get attacked, no platformed, sacked and reviled by a tiny minority. Men who think they know what being a woman is.

    I was fully on board with the trans lobby until I read of the cotton ceiling and lesbians being guilt shamed for not welcoming ‘girldick’.
    Sorry… have I understood that correctly…

    If a man self-identities as a woman, lesbians are supported to sleep with her?

    Hmmm… 🤔
    People sleep with who they want to if the desire is reciprocal. The biggest single exception is men forcing themselves on women in one way or another. The trans aspect to this is really lost in the margins. It's just that it has a certain prurient fascination.
    Guilt shaming lesbians who don’t want to sleep with women who still have their male parts is not acceptable
    I'll probably set off a Kinabalu alert, but I don't believe that lesbians can have penises.
    Everyone seemed to have missed the point of my original comment… it wasn’t meant to be taken seriously… merely an opportunity opening up…
    Nor mine. :smile:

    But look, seriously, all this nonsense about trans people being talked. C'mon.

    Not so much you @Cyclefree - we'll do this one properly some time. I agree and disagree with you.
    The only one talking bollocks about trans women is you. Everyone else has pretty much said no problem except they cant impinge on womens safe spaces till they have been cut. It is only you arguing any different
    "till they have been cut" - right.
    I find this view - which is surprisingly common - quite bizarre. One's particular dirty bits are not relevant. The question is whether places such as loos are binary by gender or by sex. I argue for the latter though the tide is moving towards to the former.
    I think loos are a bit of a red herring tbh. Nobody is going to police loos by checking people's genitals and in any case there is just not in practice a problem with fake transwomen getting off on scaring women in toilets. Sports is probably the biggest issue imo.
    Prisons and refuges are the biggest issues.
    No - in practice it's sport. Bet you that's the one that ends up taking the most sorting out.
    Ultimately sports is up to individual governing bodies. If things get really fractious competitors in a particular sport can tell their governing body to "go take a hike" and break away.

    Prisons? Well, that's the domain of elected politicians. And what they say, goes.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Carnyx said:

    alex_ said:

    Batley & Spen – the Standard reports police are investigating attacks on Labour activists.

    Labour activists in the Batley and Spen by-election have been pelted with eggs and kicked in the head while on the campaign trail, the region’s mayor has said.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/tracy-brabin-labour-batley-west-yorkshire-keir-starmer-b942884.html

    Galloway really is scum with the hatred he whips up.
    How do you know it's his lot that are doing the acts spoken of? Could be the Tories or the Monster Raving Loonies for all one knows.
    I didn’t say it was his lot directly. But his campaigning creates the conditions for it to happen. It’s not a coincidence that trouble follows elections he’s involved in.
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