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The Boundary changes – the winners and losers – politicalbetting.com

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  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,221
    Do we Magdalene-ites on PB?

    Is this a photo or a painting?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    rcs1000 said:

    I get the impression from my European colleagues that basically covid is over.

    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    That can’t be right. I think you’ll find that they are in awe of our brilliant vaccination campaign and wishes they were lucky enough to be British.
    They've basically caught up with where we were at the beginning of March.
    They're at 65 doses per 100 people (on average) which is where we were at the end of March, beginning of April. That being said, because they are (now) basically all Pfizer-BioNTech/Moderna they are probably a couple of weeks further on as far as protection.
    Scratch that - 60 per 100 people in the EU, which is almost exactly where the UK was on 1 April.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I get the impression from my European colleagues that basically covid is over.

    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Are they not able to look at case rate figures?
    They’re not reading the figures.
    They’re just responding to:

    A - the opening up they see locally
    B - their own interaction with vaccines
    C - the scary stuff on the news about the U.K.
    So uninformed nonsense then?
    I never said it was informed.

    I shared it because it’s interesting (and annoying) that they are basically “over covid” whereas in this country many still seem wedded to indefinite forms of lockdown.

    I do feel we are squandering out vax success regarding opening up.
    Probably an overreaction to having been burnt in the winter. But if opening up again does cause a resurgence, the UK is in a far better position given the lower base.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited June 2021
    6,048 new cases....that's basically double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,376
    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    Hoyle is a lightweight.

    He’s already given up trying to stop Johnson lying.

    At the end of the day, Overseas Aid is a form of regressive taxation imposed by the richer parts of society who tend to be the most vocal about it, on the poorest who prefer to spend the money at home but whose voices get drowned out by the calls of "what about the children?".

    If rich people want to contribute more to funding overseas aid, then they should donate more aggressively to charities, via which they can also take advantage of Gift Aid.

    They also do not help themselves by defending the target when there are clear examples of the UK diverting money towards countries that either do not need it (e.g. China) or spend it on frivolous projects such as space launches (e.g. India).
    During the whole Brexit comedy, I attended a city dinner.

    In an attempt to divert the conversation from the inevitable, I introduced the tale of one of Cameron's aides, who asked why (as a philosophical question) he should care more about the welfare of a UK citizen than that of a someone in the poorer parts of the world.

    An HAC officer at the table pointed out that he was on duty that weekend (some kind of TA exercise), had a large number of armed men under his command and was jolly interested in this idea of flexible allegiance.
    It's a perfectly valid question. Especially if put a different way.

    Does a country whose wealth is based to a large degree on exploitation of other parts of the world have an obligation to help those parts of the world today?

    Maybe yes, maybe no. It's a debate you can have. But it's hardly a no-brainer.
    In philosophical terms, it's a part of the social contract. If I expect a specific group of people to obey the laws which I pass, and to pay the taxes which I levy, then I owe it to them to prioritise their interests, rather than the interests of humanity in general.

    Another way of looking at it is that being a leader of a country is like being a trustee. A trustee owes duties to his beneficiaries, not to the world in general.

    If I wish to promote the interests of humanity in general, I can always join an NGO.
    But even leaving aside an imperialist past prioritizing domestic interests doesn't map to no obligation to poorer parts of the world. Eg if it's a choice between providing clean water for somewhere dirt poor or (same price) a 2nd weekly bin collection in Tory marginals, this is for me at the very least a toughie.
    No man is an island, and all that. But, I was answering, in general terms, the point raised by Cameron's aide.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Wonder what the %s are on

    i) Pro lockdown, pro vax
    ii) Anti lockdown, pro vax
    iii) Anti lockdown, antivax
    iv) Pro lockdown, antivax.

    are

    Group iv) Pro lockdown / antivax is a real niche where there'll be a handful of people.
    Group i) is the majority in the UK I think
    Group ii) - where I'd say most of PB is is ... underrepresented in general and certainly far quieter than either groups i) or iii). I think we're drowned out by the Lozza Foxes and the Drakefords from either side :/

    I think PB is mainly (i) not (ii).

    It's only moving to (ii) as regards this 21st June decision.
    Yes, I think you are right. I've certainly felt in the minority on here. A sort of @contrarian lite - which is worst than being contrarian full-fat, I fear.
    No you stay as you are. You've trod the line the right side of Covid denial. Some haven't.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590


    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Which they probably already have but won't know because with a few notable exceptions are barely doing any sequencing....
    And as a result will open up far quicker than we will, likely with no ill effects. Meanwhile we're positively delighting in our paralysis by analysis.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,201

    6,048 new cases....that's exactly double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?

    I wish the internals of the cases (unvaxxed / 1 dose / 2 doses) were published tbh.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,419
    Pulpstar said:

    Chameleon said:

    First doses definitely picking up, just been given the call myself for next Wednesday.

    I must admit I would have though I'd have my second one by now..
    If your second is in England and more than 8 weeks from your first, you can reschedule it easily online.
    I thought it was only over 50s and those that were vulnerable that the government guaranteed this to.

    Mine is scheduled for 10 weeks from my first, I am in two minds to see if I can wing an earlier one.
    I'm 38 and booked mine 8 weeks to the day after the first. Everyone else I know that's used the site has been able to do the same.
    My only concern is I had Moderna, no idea what the stocks are like of it. When I originally got it, the closest place I could get my 2nd dose was 90 mins away.
    Have you tried (re-)booking your second on the website?
    You have to cancel first before you can even see availability....which is annoying.
    Bassetlaw is completely outside the national system, you get a message to your phone inviting you for a jab then book through the GP's own health portal - like the Scottish system but with a text instead of a letter. I think it's led to efficiency and a quicker rollout than average.
    That’s how I booked mine in north Durham
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590

    6,048 new cases....that's exactly double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?

    And the 4th day in a row lower than Friday. At the moment it looks like a step change rather than a growth curve, but lets see.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    maaarsh said:


    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Which they probably already have but won't know because with a few notable exceptions are barely doing any sequencing....
    And as a result will open up far quicker than we will, likely with no ill effects. Meanwhile we're positively delighting in our paralysis by analysis.
    Hasn't every step of the reopening gone as planned so far? That's hardly paralysis.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Darn. Looks like I'm too late for the PP market.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,376
    maaarsh said:

    I remember last year on here being told that 'nobody' liked lockdown and restrictions. I think over the next month or so any remaining doubt will cease that there absolutely are people, some in positions of influence, who really don't want this to end.

    Their views won't be expressed in that form, but we'll be a long way past the point of rational disagreement with ending lockdown before everyone will accept we can move on.

    I think that some people consider there is a form of moral virtue in lockdowns.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,376

    RobD said:

    I get the impression from my European colleagues that basically covid is over.

    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Are they not able to look at case rate figures?
    They’re not reading the figures.
    They’re just responding to:

    A - the opening up they see locally
    B - their own interaction with vaccines
    C - the scary stuff on the news about the U.K.
    Perhaps they are better at handling risk than we are.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Chameleon said:

    First doses definitely picking up, just been given the call myself for next Wednesday.

    I must admit I would have though I'd have my second one by now..
    If your second is in England and more than 8 weeks from your first, you can reschedule it easily online.
    I thought it was only over 50s and those that were vulnerable that the government guaranteed this to.

    Mine is scheduled for 10 weeks from my first, I am in two minds to see if I can wing an earlier one.
    I'm 38 and booked mine 8 weeks to the day after the first. Everyone else I know that's used the site has been able to do the same.
    BTW I tried this and was unable.

    I assume the cut off is 35, as I am 34....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    6,048 new cases....that's basically double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?

    QTWAIN.

    Besides 2/6 data was 6,026

    Don't compare a weekday against the Bank Holiday.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,428

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I get the impression from my European colleagues that basically covid is over.

    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Are they not able to look at case rate figures?
    They’re not reading the figures.
    They’re just responding to:

    A - the opening up they see locally
    B - their own interaction with vaccines
    C - the scary stuff on the news about the U.K.
    So uninformed nonsense then?
    I never said it was informed.

    I shared it because it’s interesting (and annoying) that they are basically “over covid” whereas in this country many still seem wedded to indefinite forms of lockdown.

    I do feel we are squandering out vax success regarding opening up.
    They might think they are over covid, but I wouldn't be surprised if some European countries see rises in cases like we are, especially if the Delta variant takes hold. Really, but for Delta, I think we would be on course for almost normal in 13 days time. We may now have a slight hold up, but its coming. Covid loves hubris. (See India recently, the UK government last summer etc)
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    RobD said:

    maaarsh said:


    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Which they probably already have but won't know because with a few notable exceptions are barely doing any sequencing....
    And as a result will open up far quicker than we will, likely with no ill effects. Meanwhile we're positively delighting in our paralysis by analysis.
    Hasn't every step of the reopening gone as planned so far? That's hardly paralysis.
    Exactly as planned if you were following a policy of dates, not data. I hope, but do not expect, that policy to survive the next fortnight.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    Hoyle is a lightweight.

    He’s already given up trying to stop Johnson lying.

    At the end of the day, Overseas Aid is a form of regressive taxation imposed by the richer parts of society who tend to be the most vocal about it, on the poorest who prefer to spend the money at home but whose voices get drowned out by the calls of "what about the children?".

    If rich people want to contribute more to funding overseas aid, then they should donate more aggressively to charities, via which they can also take advantage of Gift Aid.

    They also do not help themselves by defending the target when there are clear examples of the UK diverting money towards countries that either do not need it (e.g. China) or spend it on frivolous projects such as space launches (e.g. India).
    During the whole Brexit comedy, I attended a city dinner.

    In an attempt to divert the conversation from the inevitable, I introduced the tale of one of Cameron's aides, who asked why (as a philosophical question) he should care more about the welfare of a UK citizen than that of a someone in the poorer parts of the world.

    An HAC officer at the table pointed out that he was on duty that weekend (some kind of TA exercise), had a large number of armed men under his command and was jolly interested in this idea of flexible allegiance.
    It's a perfectly valid question. Especially if put a different way.

    Does a country whose wealth is based to a large degree on exploitation of other parts of the world have an obligation to help those parts of the world today?

    Maybe yes, maybe no. It's a debate you can have. But it's hardly a no-brainer.
    In philosophical terms, it's a part of the social contract. If I expect a specific group of people to obey the laws which I pass, and to pay the taxes which I levy, then I owe it to them to prioritise their interests, rather than the interests of humanity in general.

    Another way of looking at it is that being a leader of a country is like being a trustee. A trustee owes duties to his beneficiaries, not to the world in general.

    If I wish to promote the interests of humanity in general, I can always join an NGO.
    But even leaving aside an imperialist past prioritizing domestic interests doesn't map to no obligation to poorer parts of the world. Eg if it's a choice between providing clean water for somewhere dirt poor or (same price) a 2nd weekly bin collection in Tory marginals, this is for me at the very least a toughie.
    There's an irony in your post in that you've inadvertently made a quasi-imperialist case along the line British socialists did in the 1950s.

    Our responsibility for ensuring such countries were well-governed ended upon independence.

    Now, the choice we have is that either we decide to intervene directly in projects in those countries, because "we know best", or we funnel that aid through their Governments and hope they spend it on the right things.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Interestingly hospitalisations w-o-w have fallen by a whisker again today.

    Possibly just noise.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    maaarsh said:

    RobD said:

    maaarsh said:


    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Which they probably already have but won't know because with a few notable exceptions are barely doing any sequencing....
    And as a result will open up far quicker than we will, likely with no ill effects. Meanwhile we're positively delighting in our paralysis by analysis.
    Hasn't every step of the reopening gone as planned so far? That's hardly paralysis.
    Exactly as planned if you were following a policy of dates, not data. I hope, but do not expect, that policy to survive the next fortnight.
    Really? The counterfactual is that they opened up earlier, and the UK would be further up the growth curve making it even more unlikely the last stage would happen as planned.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,238
    rcs1000 said:

    I get the impression from my European colleagues that basically covid is over.

    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    That can’t be right. I think you’ll find that they are in awe of our brilliant vaccination campaign and wishes they were lucky enough to be British.
    They've basically caught up with where we were at the beginning of March.
    They're at 65 doses per 100 people (on average) which is where we were at the end of March, beginning of April. That being said, because they are (now) basically all Pfizer-BioNTech/Moderna they are probably a couple of weeks further on as far as protection.
    What data set are you getting that from? If you take owid (https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations), the UK hit 65 doses per 100 people on April 20. Germany is just above there now, Italy just below. Since it's the same sausage machine, the people/adults thing doesn't matter, as long as it's the same for each country.

    So that's currently a 7 week gap on jab count. France is about a week behind that. A couple of weeks off that because mRNA works better faster, a couple of weeks off because EU countries are expecting some mega Pfizer deliveries this month. I'm really not expecting the EU to finish at the same time as the UK, but there going to be a lot less in it than many people on this side of the Channel appear to think.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    Mortimer said:

    Chameleon said:

    First doses definitely picking up, just been given the call myself for next Wednesday.

    I must admit I would have though I'd have my second one by now..
    If your second is in England and more than 8 weeks from your first, you can reschedule it easily online.
    I thought it was only over 50s and those that were vulnerable that the government guaranteed this to.

    Mine is scheduled for 10 weeks from my first, I am in two minds to see if I can wing an earlier one.
    I'm 38 and booked mine 8 weeks to the day after the first. Everyone else I know that's used the site has been able to do the same.
    BTW I tried this and was unable.

    I assume the cut off is 35, as I am 34....
    Were you forced to just book another appointment at 10-12 weeks?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    6,048 new cases....that's basically double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?

    Case numbers are pretty much irrelevant at this point - the more important stat is number in hospital, which is staying flat.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Interestingly hospitalisations w-o-w have fallen by a whisker again today.

    Possibly just noise.

    Irrelevant. The latest models show that there will be 383 trillion patients in hospital in ten weeks' time if we don't impose a curfew and stop pubs from selling alcohol indoors. So that must be true. Delta variant, up to 1,566,234,770% more transmissible, etc., etc.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Mortimer said:

    Chameleon said:

    First doses definitely picking up, just been given the call myself for next Wednesday.

    I must admit I would have though I'd have my second one by now..
    If your second is in England and more than 8 weeks from your first, you can reschedule it easily online.
    I thought it was only over 50s and those that were vulnerable that the government guaranteed this to.

    Mine is scheduled for 10 weeks from my first, I am in two minds to see if I can wing an earlier one.
    I'm 38 and booked mine 8 weeks to the day after the first. Everyone else I know that's used the site has been able to do the same.
    BTW I tried this and was unable.

    I assume the cut off is 35, as I am 34....
    Were you forced to just book another appointment at 10-12 weeks?
    Yep. Hilariously, the same place, same day, but 3 hours later....
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,428
    For anyone wetting the bed.

    England admissions:



    In hospital in England:



    We expected cases to rise on opening up and that the link to serious disease would be weakened and broken. Good news - its happening.

    Relax.

  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    RobD said:

    maaarsh said:

    RobD said:

    maaarsh said:


    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Which they probably already have but won't know because with a few notable exceptions are barely doing any sequencing....
    And as a result will open up far quicker than we will, likely with no ill effects. Meanwhile we're positively delighting in our paralysis by analysis.
    Hasn't every step of the reopening gone as planned so far? That's hardly paralysis.
    Exactly as planned if you were following a policy of dates, not data. I hope, but do not expect, that policy to survive the next fortnight.
    Really? The counterfactual is that they opened up earlier, and the UK would be further up the growth curve making it even more unlikely the last stage would happen as planned.
    The growth curve is pointing down in Bolton & Bedford, and flat in Blackburn. Time will tell, but there isn't much sign yet of an outbreak which doesn't hit a local limit quickly. There are plenty of counter-factuals (which don't require pure speculation) in the rest of the world engaging in much less testing, less sequencing, and quicker opening. Perhaps they will pay a price but there is no sign of it yet.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9664343/Rochdale-grooming-gang-member-says-not-committed-big-crime.html

    A Rochdale grooming gang member who got a girl (13) pregnant and trafficked a 15-year-old said 'we have not committed that big a crime'

    Hmm - I beg to differ
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    Sean_F said:

    maaarsh said:

    I remember last year on here being told that 'nobody' liked lockdown and restrictions. I think over the next month or so any remaining doubt will cease that there absolutely are people, some in positions of influence, who really don't want this to end.

    Their views won't be expressed in that form, but we'll be a long way past the point of rational disagreement with ending lockdown before everyone will accept we can move on.

    I think that some people consider there is a form of moral virtue in lockdowns.
    I have definitely seen this.

    Some of my mates were very judgy about my (entirely legal) business travel in November. It didn't seem to occur to them that some of us are can't always work from home.....
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,376

    Interestingly hospitalisations w-o-w have fallen by a whisker again today.

    Possibly just noise.

    Irrelevant. The latest models show that there will be 383 trillion patients in hospital in ten weeks' time if we don't impose a curfew and stop pubs from selling alcohol indoors. So that must be true. Delta variant, up to 1,566,234,770% more transmissible, etc., etc.
    One case of COVID is one to many.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Vaccine passports are happening - first use to be for Wembley group fixtures in the football European Championships.

    Anyone over 11: Either show proof of vaccination (even though not available to under 18s) or negative lateral flow test result


    https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1402280556289744896?s=20
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590

    For anyone wetting the bed.

    England admissions:



    In hospital in England:



    We expected cases to rise on opening up and that the link to serious disease would be weakened and broken. Good news - its happening.

    Relax.

    That is out of date as usual - latest available at -

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

    Hospital admissions and beds filled are undeniably going up. Just nowhere near quick enough to be a credible problem.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,201

    For anyone wetting the bed.

    England admissions:



    In hospital in England:



    We expected cases to rise on opening up and that the link to serious disease would be weakened and broken. Good news - its happening.

    Relax.

    The problem isn't any of us wetting the bed, it's Boris :D
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    maaarsh said:

    I remember last year on here being told that 'nobody' liked lockdown and restrictions. I think over the next month or so any remaining doubt will cease that there absolutely are people, some in positions of influence, who really don't want this to end.

    Their views won't be expressed in that form, but we'll be a long way past the point of rational disagreement with ending lockdown before everyone will accept we can move on.

    I think that some people consider there is a form of moral virtue in lockdowns.
    I have definitely seen this.

    Some of my mates were very judgy about my (entirely legal) business travel in November. It didn't seem to occur to them that some of us are can't always work from home.....
    It’s annoying as hell when those needing to travel on business, or separated from family for more than a year, are pushed out of the conversation in favour of those who just want a week on a beach somewhere.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585
    maaarsh said:

    I remember last year on here being told that 'nobody' liked lockdown and restrictions. I think over the next month or so any remaining doubt will cease that there absolutely are people, some in positions of influence, who really don't want this to end.

    Their views won't be expressed in that form, but we'll be a long way past the point of rational disagreement with ending lockdown before everyone will accept we can move on.

    Most of them are not positively in favour of lockdown, (although a handful may be). It's just that it doesn't particularly bother them, and if it goes on for a few more months, no problem.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,428
    Floater said:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9664343/Rochdale-grooming-gang-member-says-not-committed-big-crime.html

    A Rochdale grooming gang member who got a girl (13) pregnant and trafficked a 15-year-old said 'we have not committed that big a crime'

    Hmm - I beg to differ

    Well thats him banned from playing cricket for England then...
  • AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 337

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I get the impression from my European colleagues that basically covid is over.

    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Are they not able to look at case rate figures?
    They’re not reading the figures.
    They’re just responding to:

    A - the opening up they see locally
    B - their own interaction with vaccines
    C - the scary stuff on the news about the U.K.
    So uninformed nonsense then?
    I never said it was informed.

    I shared it because it’s interesting (and annoying) that they are basically “over covid” whereas in this country many still seem wedded to indefinite forms of lockdown.

    I do feel we are squandering out vax success regarding opening up.
    It's pretty clear that a significant section of the public is happy with the status quo of restrictions for other people

    [clue: they don't go to nightclubs and the bowling clubs have reopened so all's good there]
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,428
    maaarsh said:

    For anyone wetting the bed.

    England admissions:



    In hospital in England:



    We expected cases to rise on opening up and that the link to serious disease would be weakened and broken. Good news - its happening.

    Relax.

    That is out of date as usual - latest available at -

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

    Hospital admissions and beds filled are undeniably going up. Just nowhere near quick enough to be a credible problem.
    It is the data published on the national site. Its not that out of date...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    maaarsh said:

    I remember last year on here being told that 'nobody' liked lockdown and restrictions. I think over the next month or so any remaining doubt will cease that there absolutely are people, some in positions of influence, who really don't want this to end.

    Their views won't be expressed in that form, but we'll be a long way past the point of rational disagreement with ending lockdown before everyone will accept we can move on.

    I think that some people consider there is a form of moral virtue in lockdowns.
    I have definitely seen this.

    Some of my mates were very judgy about my (entirely legal) business travel in November. It didn't seem to occur to them that some of us are can't always work from home.....
    It’s annoying as hell when those needing to travel on business, or separated from family for more than a year, are pushed out of the conversation in favour of those who just want a week on a beach somewhere.
    Entirely agree. And the constant narrative about holidays inevitably leads to the scenes we are seeing in Portugal with people desperate to return before the quarantine requirements kick in. Quite why they had to go away in the first place is beyond me (Cabinet ministers included).
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Vaccine passports are happening - first use to be for Wembley group fixtures in the football European Championships.

    Anyone over 11: Either show proof of vaccination (even though not available to under 18s) or negative lateral flow test result


    https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1402280556289744896?s=20

    Did someone say bio-security state?

    This is just pants. We should just get back to normal.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,763

    For anyone wetting the bed.

    England admissions:



    In hospital in England:



    We expected cases to rise on opening up and that the link to serious disease would be weakened and broken. Good news - its happening.

    Relax.

    Yep, those figures definitely look "grim".

    We better lockdown a bit more.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    edited June 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    maaarsh said:

    I remember last year on here being told that 'nobody' liked lockdown and restrictions. I think over the next month or so any remaining doubt will cease that there absolutely are people, some in positions of influence, who really don't want this to end.

    Their views won't be expressed in that form, but we'll be a long way past the point of rational disagreement with ending lockdown before everyone will accept we can move on.

    Most of them are not positively in favour of lockdown, (although a handful may be). It's just that it doesn't particularly bother them, and if it goes on for a few more months, no problem.
    Tomorrow, tomorrow, it's always a day away.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    Mortimer said:

    Chameleon said:

    First doses definitely picking up, just been given the call myself for next Wednesday.

    I must admit I would have though I'd have my second one by now..
    If your second is in England and more than 8 weeks from your first, you can reschedule it easily online.
    I thought it was only over 50s and those that were vulnerable that the government guaranteed this to.

    Mine is scheduled for 10 weeks from my first, I am in two minds to see if I can wing an earlier one.
    I'm 38 and booked mine 8 weeks to the day after the first. Everyone else I know that's used the site has been able to do the same.
    BTW I tried this and was unable.

    I assume the cut off is 35, as I am 34....
    Why would such a young person not do their own risk assessment for
    1) death from COVID
    vs
    2) death from vaccine.

    For 1), see https://www.qcovid.org

    For 2, best to use the US VAERS system. Risk about 1 in 32,000 I think.

    The UK figures are concealed as well as possible on the govt website while technically being 'published'.

    UK Column published them in a more transparent form but has had trouble staying on the air.

    This has of course been the practice with COVID since Feb. 2020, i.e. lies and damned lies but very few real statistics.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited June 2021
    In England there were 121 admissions yesterday compared to 80 the previous week. The seven day average is up to 103 compared to 86 the week before. Yes - these figures are not in and of themselves catastrophic, but anyone can see the direction of travel is not "flat".
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Mortimer said:

    Chameleon said:

    First doses definitely picking up, just been given the call myself for next Wednesday.

    I must admit I would have though I'd have my second one by now..
    If your second is in England and more than 8 weeks from your first, you can reschedule it easily online.
    I thought it was only over 50s and those that were vulnerable that the government guaranteed this to.

    Mine is scheduled for 10 weeks from my first, I am in two minds to see if I can wing an earlier one.
    I'm 38 and booked mine 8 weeks to the day after the first. Everyone else I know that's used the site has been able to do the same.
    BTW I tried this and was unable.

    I assume the cut off is 35, as I am 34....
    Why would such a young person not do their own risk assessment for
    1) death from COVID
    vs
    2) death from vaccine.

    For 1), see https://www.qcovid.org

    For 2, best to use the US VAERS system. Risk about 1 in 32,000 I think.

    The UK figures are concealed as well as possible on the govt website while technically being 'published'.

    UK Column published them in a more transparent form but has had trouble staying on the air.

    This has of course been the practice with COVID since Feb. 2020, i.e. lies and damned lies but very few real statistics.
    Because:

    1) vaccines are about getting herd immunity. I do it to protect myself and others
    2) I plan on aging....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,201

    Mortimer said:

    Chameleon said:

    First doses definitely picking up, just been given the call myself for next Wednesday.

    I must admit I would have though I'd have my second one by now..
    If your second is in England and more than 8 weeks from your first, you can reschedule it easily online.
    I thought it was only over 50s and those that were vulnerable that the government guaranteed this to.

    Mine is scheduled for 10 weeks from my first, I am in two minds to see if I can wing an earlier one.
    I'm 38 and booked mine 8 weeks to the day after the first. Everyone else I know that's used the site has been able to do the same.
    BTW I tried this and was unable.

    I assume the cut off is 35, as I am 34....
    Why would such a young person not do their own risk assessment for
    1) death from COVID
    vs
    2) death from vaccine.

    For 1), see https://www.qcovid.org

    For 2, best to use the US VAERS system. Risk about 1 in 32,000 I think.

    The UK figures are concealed as well as possible on the govt website while technically being 'published'.

    UK Column published them in a more transparent form but has had trouble staying on the air.

    This has of course been the practice with COVID since Feb. 2020, i.e. lies and damned lies but very few real statistics.
    Lol you make @contrarian look like a model of sanity.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,763
    maaarsh said:

    Andy_JS said:

    maaarsh said:

    I remember last year on here being told that 'nobody' liked lockdown and restrictions. I think over the next month or so any remaining doubt will cease that there absolutely are people, some in positions of influence, who really don't want this to end.

    Their views won't be expressed in that form, but we'll be a long way past the point of rational disagreement with ending lockdown before everyone will accept we can move on.

    Most of them are not positively in favour of lockdown, (although a handful may be). It's just that it doesn't particularly bother them, and if it goes on for a few more months, no problem.
    Tomorrow, tomorrow, it's always a day away.
    As I posted the other day, if the academics on indie SAGE were put on furlough and told their contracts may not be renewed in the autumn due to the economic situation, how many of them would still be yelling 'lockdown more, lockdown harder, lockdown everyday'???
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Sandpit said:

    6,048 new cases....that's basically double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?

    Case numbers are pretty much irrelevant at this point - the more important stat is number in hospital, which is staying flat.
    I wish people would stop saying that. Today's PHE data, as I said above, shows an undeniable increase and the direction of travel is *not* looking good.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005

    Mortimer said:

    Chameleon said:

    First doses definitely picking up, just been given the call myself for next Wednesday.

    I must admit I would have though I'd have my second one by now..
    If your second is in England and more than 8 weeks from your first, you can reschedule it easily online.
    I thought it was only over 50s and those that were vulnerable that the government guaranteed this to.

    Mine is scheduled for 10 weeks from my first, I am in two minds to see if I can wing an earlier one.
    I'm 38 and booked mine 8 weeks to the day after the first. Everyone else I know that's used the site has been able to do the same.
    BTW I tried this and was unable.

    I assume the cut off is 35, as I am 34....
    Why would such a young person not do their own risk assessment for
    1) death from COVID
    vs
    2) death from vaccine.

    For 1), see https://www.qcovid.org

    For 2, best to use the US VAERS system. Risk about 1 in 32,000 I think.

    The UK figures are concealed as well as possible on the govt website while technically being 'published'.

    UK Column published them in a more transparent form but has had trouble staying on the air.

    This has of course been the practice with COVID since Feb. 2020, i.e. lies and damned lies but very few real statistics.
    For 1, they need to remember that the risk is "chance of exposure" multiplied by "outcome risk."
    Qcovid uses about 1 in 50. Fine for when we're locked down, but I'd prefer not to be locked down. Opening up without herd immunity means everyone gets that risk, so 50 times the level

    For 2, remember that VAERS is heavily abused by the antivaxxer loons. To illustrate this, someone successfully reported being turned into the Incredible Hulk by a vaccine and it went onto VAERS. So VAERS tends only to be cited by antivaxxer idiots these days.

    The denialist fools have always been abusing "statistics" and lies; sadly some still believe them even now.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    6,048 new cases....that's basically double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?

    Case numbers are pretty much irrelevant at this point - the more important stat is number in hospital, which is staying flat.
    I wish people would stop saying that. Today's PHE data, as I said above, shows an undeniable increase and the direction of travel is *not* looking good.
    Looking at @Andy_Cooke’s analysis about three posts up, there’s a small rise, but not anything that looks like overwhelming the healthcare system any time soon.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    6,048 new cases....that's basically double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?

    Case numbers are pretty much irrelevant at this point - the more important stat is number in hospital, which is staying flat.
    I wish people would stop saying that. Today's PHE data, as I said above, shows an undeniable increase and the direction of travel is *not* looking good.
    Looking at @Andy_Cooke’s analysis about three posts up, there’s a small rise, but not anything that looks like overwhelming the healthcare system any time soon.
    That was the reason for initially locking down, so I think the time has come to let people take their own level of risk
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,257
    DougSeal said:

    In England there were 121 admissions yesterday compared to 80 the previous week. The seven day average is up to 103 compared to 86 the week before. Yes - these figures are not in and of themselves catastrophic, but anyone can see the direction of travel is not "flat".

    Comparing one day over a week is not a good comparison as last Monday was a Bank Holiday. Deaths are up today, but last Tuesday was the day after a Bank Holiday.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    6,048 new cases....that's basically double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?

    Case numbers are pretty much irrelevant at this point - the more important stat is number in hospital, which is staying flat.
    I wish people would stop saying that. Today's PHE data, as I said above, shows an undeniable increase and the direction of travel is *not* looking good.
    It's not flat, but don't overplay your hand - the rate of growth is significantly slower than in previous waves.

    Meanwhile on cases, if you look at specimen date rather than reported, England is flat lining at about 5k a day since the bank holiday - with falls in the original hot spots being offset by spread to new areas. Until we have a hot spot keep going and grow to anywhere near it's Jan level, there is no flashing red light.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    DougSeal said:

    In England there were 121 admissions yesterday compared to 80 the previous week. The seven day average is up to 103 compared to 86 the week before. Yes - these figures are not in and of themselves catastrophic, but anyone can see the direction of travel is not "flat".

    Interestingly, the seven-day average is actually slightly down week-on-week.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    maaarsh said:

    For anyone wetting the bed.

    England admissions:



    In hospital in England:



    We expected cases to rise on opening up and that the link to serious disease would be weakened and broken. Good news - its happening.

    Relax.

    That is out of date as usual - latest available at -

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

    Hospital admissions and beds filled are undeniably going up. Just nowhere near quick enough to be a credible problem.
    At the current rate of increase it'll take about a month to get to a total of 1,500 Covid patients in hospital, and that's assuming that the 15 million additional vaccinations that will happen over that period have zero additional effect either on preventing serious illness or dampening transmission, which is wholly implausible.

    Barring a variant a whole lot more deadly than Delta, Covid-19 is effectively finished as an emergency. It's just that a lot of the scientists either can't see it, or don't want to.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    isam said:

    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    6,048 new cases....that's basically double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?

    Case numbers are pretty much irrelevant at this point - the more important stat is number in hospital, which is staying flat.
    I wish people would stop saying that. Today's PHE data, as I said above, shows an undeniable increase and the direction of travel is *not* looking good.
    Looking at @Andy_Cooke’s analysis about three posts up, there’s a small rise, but not anything that looks like overwhelming the healthcare system any time soon.
    That was the reason for initially locking down, so I think the time has come to let people take their own level of risk
    I thought the reason for lockdown was it looked like it was about to overwhelm the healthcare system, especially for the first one.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    maaarsh said:

    Andy_JS said:

    maaarsh said:

    I remember last year on here being told that 'nobody' liked lockdown and restrictions. I think over the next month or so any remaining doubt will cease that there absolutely are people, some in positions of influence, who really don't want this to end.

    Their views won't be expressed in that form, but we'll be a long way past the point of rational disagreement with ending lockdown before everyone will accept we can move on.

    Most of them are not positively in favour of lockdown, (although a handful may be). It's just that it doesn't particularly bother them, and if it goes on for a few more months, no problem.
    Tomorrow, tomorrow, it's always a day away.
    As I posted the other day, if the academics on indie SAGE were put on furlough and told their contracts may not be renewed in the autumn due to the economic situation, how many of them would still be yelling 'lockdown more, lockdown harder, lockdown everyday'???
    The hacks should start by asking them if they’ve had a good pandemic in their own personal finances. The problem is that they’ll reply “same as you”.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,201

    Mortimer said:

    Chameleon said:

    First doses definitely picking up, just been given the call myself for next Wednesday.

    I must admit I would have though I'd have my second one by now..
    If your second is in England and more than 8 weeks from your first, you can reschedule it easily online.
    I thought it was only over 50s and those that were vulnerable that the government guaranteed this to.

    Mine is scheduled for 10 weeks from my first, I am in two minds to see if I can wing an earlier one.
    I'm 38 and booked mine 8 weeks to the day after the first. Everyone else I know that's used the site has been able to do the same.
    BTW I tried this and was unable.

    I assume the cut off is 35, as I am 34....
    Why would such a young person not do their own risk assessment for
    1) death from COVID
    vs
    2) death from vaccine.

    For 1), see https://www.qcovid.org

    For 2, best to use the US VAERS system. Risk about 1 in 32,000 I think.

    The UK figures are concealed as well as possible on the govt website while technically being 'published'.

    UK Column published them in a more transparent form but has had trouble staying on the air.

    This has of course been the practice with COVID since Feb. 2020, i.e. lies and damned lies but very few real statistics.
    For 1, they need to remember that the risk is "chance of exposure" multiplied by "outcome risk."
    Qcovid uses about 1 in 50. Fine for when we're locked down, but I'd prefer not to be locked down. Opening up without herd immunity means everyone gets that risk, so 50 times the level

    For 2, remember that VAERS is heavily abused by the antivaxxer loons. To illustrate this, someone successfully reported being turned into the Incredible Hulk by a vaccine and it went onto VAERS. So VAERS tends only to be cited by antivaxxer idiots these days.

    The denialist fools have always been abusing "statistics" and lies; sadly some still believe them even now.
    One thing the indian variant has done is swing the risk from vaccination compared to covid even further toward vaccination. I mean it was there already but now it'll be at an even younger crossover point, probably about 5 years old or some such.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    6,048 new cases....that's basically double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?

    Case numbers are pretty much irrelevant at this point - the more important stat is number in hospital, which is staying flat.
    I wish people would stop saying that. Today's PHE data, as I said above, shows an undeniable increase and the direction of travel is *not* looking good.
    Looking at @Andy_Cooke’s analysis about three posts up, there’s a small rise, but not anything that looks like overwhelming the healthcare system any time soon.
    That was the reason for initially locking down, so I think the time has come to let people take their own level of risk
    I thought the reason for lockdown was it looked like it was about to overwhelm the healthcare system, especially for the first one.
    That’s what I said wasn’t it?!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    Sean_F said:

    maaarsh said:

    I remember last year on here being told that 'nobody' liked lockdown and restrictions. I think over the next month or so any remaining doubt will cease that there absolutely are people, some in positions of influence, who really don't want this to end.

    Their views won't be expressed in that form, but we'll be a long way past the point of rational disagreement with ending lockdown before everyone will accept we can move on.

    I think that some people consider there is a form of moral virtue in lockdowns.
    Yep. But ditto the other way.

    Some people think that by protesting vigorously about freedoms (eg to go to Tesco sans mask) they signal themselves as a slightly superior form of being to the lumpen masses. One who is rather more rugged and elevated. Bit braver. More independent of thought. Less easily cowed by Authority. Less swayed by Groupthink.

    Such people will often declare when you run into them that "Anybody who sacrifices a little liberty for extra security deserves neither liberty nor security."

    To which one can only reply, "Yes indeed. Can you pass the salt?"
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    In England there were 121 admissions yesterday compared to 80 the previous week. The seven day average is up to 103 compared to 86 the week before. Yes - these figures are not in and of themselves catastrophic, but anyone can see the direction of travel is not "flat".

    Comparing one day over a week is not a good comparison as last Monday was a Bank Holiday. Deaths are up today, but last Tuesday was the day after a Bank Holiday.
    The virus, unlike Covid testers, doesn't take bank holidays off. If you're ill enough to get admitted you get admitted, holiday or not.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,257
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    maaarsh said:

    I remember last year on here being told that 'nobody' liked lockdown and restrictions. I think over the next month or so any remaining doubt will cease that there absolutely are people, some in positions of influence, who really don't want this to end.

    Their views won't be expressed in that form, but we'll be a long way past the point of rational disagreement with ending lockdown before everyone will accept we can move on.

    I think that some people consider there is a form of moral virtue in lockdowns.
    I have definitely seen this.

    Some of my mates were very judgy about my (entirely legal) business travel in November. It didn't seem to occur to them that some of us are can't always work from home.....
    It’s annoying as hell when those needing to travel on business, or separated from family for more than a year, are pushed out of the conversation in favour of those who just want a week on a beach somewhere.
    Entirely agree. And the constant narrative about holidays inevitably leads to the scenes we are seeing in Portugal with people desperate to return before the quarantine requirements kick in. Quite why they had to go away in the first place is beyond me (Cabinet ministers included).
    I'm sceptical about many people claiming to need to travel on business though. If you just need to talk to people, do it by Zoom. If you are a specialist engineer who needs to tinker with some piece of kit and can't find the expertise locally, fair enough
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    isam said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    6,048 new cases....that's basically double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?

    Case numbers are pretty much irrelevant at this point - the more important stat is number in hospital, which is staying flat.
    I wish people would stop saying that. Today's PHE data, as I said above, shows an undeniable increase and the direction of travel is *not* looking good.
    Looking at @Andy_Cooke’s analysis about three posts up, there’s a small rise, but not anything that looks like overwhelming the healthcare system any time soon.
    That was the reason for initially locking down, so I think the time has come to let people take their own level of risk
    I thought the reason for lockdown was it looked like it was about to overwhelm the healthcare system, especially for the first one.
    That’s what I said wasn’t it?!
    Sorry, I was confused by your comment. Sandpit said that there was a small rise, but not anything that looked like it would overwhelm the health service. Then you said that was the reason for locking down, which I interpreted to mean a small rise, but not anything that looked like it would overwhelm...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    DougSeal said:

    In England there were 121 admissions yesterday compared to 80 the previous week. The seven day average is up to 103 compared to 86 the week before. Yes - these figures are not in and of themselves catastrophic, but anyone can see the direction of travel is not "flat".

    But what proportion of that increase comes from vaccine refusers? Your simplistic analysis of the numbers doesn't tell the full story. We can't keep lockdown for that reason because those peopl will never get it anyway.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    RobD said:

    isam said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    6,048 new cases....that's basically double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?

    Case numbers are pretty much irrelevant at this point - the more important stat is number in hospital, which is staying flat.
    I wish people would stop saying that. Today's PHE data, as I said above, shows an undeniable increase and the direction of travel is *not* looking good.
    Looking at @Andy_Cooke’s analysis about three posts up, there’s a small rise, but not anything that looks like overwhelming the healthcare system any time soon.
    That was the reason for initially locking down, so I think the time has come to let people take their own level of risk
    I thought the reason for lockdown was it looked like it was about to overwhelm the healthcare system, especially for the first one.
    That’s what I said wasn’t it?!
    Sorry, I was confused by your comment. Sandpit said that there was a small rise, but not anything that looked like it would overwhelm the health service. Then you said that was the reason for locking down, which I interpreted to mean a small rise, but not anything that looked like it would overwhelm...
    Oh I meant the reason was the overwhelming
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    RobD said:

    isam said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    6,048 new cases....that's basically double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?

    Case numbers are pretty much irrelevant at this point - the more important stat is number in hospital, which is staying flat.
    I wish people would stop saying that. Today's PHE data, as I said above, shows an undeniable increase and the direction of travel is *not* looking good.
    Looking at @Andy_Cooke’s analysis about three posts up, there’s a small rise, but not anything that looks like overwhelming the healthcare system any time soon.
    That was the reason for initially locking down, so I think the time has come to let people take their own level of risk
    I thought the reason for lockdown was it looked like it was about to overwhelm the healthcare system, especially for the first one.
    That’s what I said wasn’t it?!
    Sorry, I was confused by your comment. Sandpit said that there was a small rise, but not anything that looked like it would overwhelm the health service. Then you said that was the reason for locking down, which I interpreted to mean a small rise, but not anything that looked like it would overwhelm...
    The reason for the restrictions, was to avoid overwhelming the health service.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    isam said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    6,048 new cases....that's basically double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?

    Case numbers are pretty much irrelevant at this point - the more important stat is number in hospital, which is staying flat.
    I wish people would stop saying that. Today's PHE data, as I said above, shows an undeniable increase and the direction of travel is *not* looking good.
    Looking at @Andy_Cooke’s analysis about three posts up, there’s a small rise, but not anything that looks like overwhelming the healthcare system any time soon.
    That was the reason for initially locking down, so I think the time has come to let people take their own level of risk
    I thought the reason for lockdown was it looked like it was about to overwhelm the healthcare system, especially for the first one.
    That’s what I said wasn’t it?!
    Sorry, I was confused by your comment. Sandpit said that there was a small rise, but not anything that looked like it would overwhelm the health service. Then you said that was the reason for locking down, which I interpreted to mean a small rise, but not anything that looked like it would overwhelm...
    Oh I meant the reason was the overwhelming
    Ah, okay. Sorry about the misunderstanding. :)
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,746

    Mortimer said:

    Chameleon said:

    First doses definitely picking up, just been given the call myself for next Wednesday.

    I must admit I would have though I'd have my second one by now..
    If your second is in England and more than 8 weeks from your first, you can reschedule it easily online.
    I thought it was only over 50s and those that were vulnerable that the government guaranteed this to.

    Mine is scheduled for 10 weeks from my first, I am in two minds to see if I can wing an earlier one.
    I'm 38 and booked mine 8 weeks to the day after the first. Everyone else I know that's used the site has been able to do the same.
    BTW I tried this and was unable.

    I assume the cut off is 35, as I am 34....
    Why would such a young person not do their own risk assessment for
    1) death from COVID
    vs
    2) death from vaccine.

    For 1), see https://www.qcovid.org

    For 2, best to use the US VAERS system. Risk about 1 in 32,000 I think.

    The UK figures are concealed as well as possible on the govt website while technically being 'published'.

    UK Column published them in a more transparent form but has had trouble staying on the air.

    This has of course been the practice with COVID since Feb. 2020, i.e. lies and damned lies but very few real statistics.
    For 1, they need to remember that the risk is "chance of exposure" multiplied by "outcome risk."
    Qcovid uses about 1 in 50. Fine for when we're locked down, but I'd prefer not to be locked down. Opening up without herd immunity means everyone gets that risk, so 50 times the level

    For 2, remember that VAERS is heavily abused by the antivaxxer loons. To illustrate this, someone successfully reported being turned into the Incredible Hulk by a vaccine and it went onto VAERS. So VAERS tends only to be cited by antivaxxer idiots these days.

    The denialist fools have always been abusing "statistics" and lies; sadly some still believe them even now.
    There's also the fact that the exposure risk to AZN for a 34 year old having a first jab is close to zero, whatever the outcome risk is.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,428
    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    6,048 new cases....that's basically double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?

    Case numbers are pretty much irrelevant at this point - the more important stat is number in hospital, which is staying flat.
    I wish people would stop saying that. Today's PHE data, as I said above, shows an undeniable increase and the direction of travel is *not* looking good.
    For what its worth I agree with you - there is a rise in both hospitalisation and death, but the rise is NOT matching the cases rise, and will be redominantly among those who will not die of this. The charts I posted (chosen as easy to display) may be a day or so out of date, but they portray a situation very different from previous waves and disconnected from the doom mongers of iSAGE. We are no conditioned to expect more cases leads to more in hospital leads to more deaths, but we are now in a different place thanks to the vaccines.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    Wisconsin pharmacist who believed COVID-19 conspiracy theories and caused more than 500 vaccines to be thrown away is sentenced to 3 years in prison
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,257
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    In England there were 121 admissions yesterday compared to 80 the previous week. The seven day average is up to 103 compared to 86 the week before. Yes - these figures are not in and of themselves catastrophic, but anyone can see the direction of travel is not "flat".

    Comparing one day over a week is not a good comparison as last Monday was a Bank Holiday. Deaths are up today, but last Tuesday was the day after a Bank Holiday.
    The virus, unlike Covid testers, doesn't take bank holidays off. If you're ill enough to get admitted you get admitted, holiday or not.
    A very cursory look at the data suggests numbers were down last Sat-Mon and massively up on Tuesday, with the previous weekend similar. It might be a reporting issue, or might be that people don't go to their doctor at the weekend and therefore don't get sent to hospital.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,201

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    maaarsh said:

    I remember last year on here being told that 'nobody' liked lockdown and restrictions. I think over the next month or so any remaining doubt will cease that there absolutely are people, some in positions of influence, who really don't want this to end.

    Their views won't be expressed in that form, but we'll be a long way past the point of rational disagreement with ending lockdown before everyone will accept we can move on.

    I think that some people consider there is a form of moral virtue in lockdowns.
    I have definitely seen this.

    Some of my mates were very judgy about my (entirely legal) business travel in November. It didn't seem to occur to them that some of us are can't always work from home.....
    It’s annoying as hell when those needing to travel on business, or separated from family for more than a year, are pushed out of the conversation in favour of those who just want a week on a beach somewhere.
    Entirely agree. And the constant narrative about holidays inevitably leads to the scenes we are seeing in Portugal with people desperate to return before the quarantine requirements kick in. Quite why they had to go away in the first place is beyond me (Cabinet ministers included).
    I'm sceptical about many people claiming to need to travel on business though. If you just need to talk to people, do it by Zoom. If you are a specialist engineer who needs to tinker with some piece of kit and can't find the expertise locally, fair enough
    Well, this is precisely the need for my firm's business travel. We're awaiting Macron's announcements about the double-vaxxed change he is introducing shortly.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    I get the impression from my European colleagues that basically covid is over.

    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Are they not able to look at case rate figures?
    They’re not reading the figures.
    They’re just responding to:

    A - the opening up they see locally
    B - their own interaction with vaccines
    C - the scary stuff on the news about the U.K.
    Perhaps they are better at handling risk than we are.
    I agree.

    I think - like in the US - they're happy with a certain base level of Covid as they reopen their economies. They're not aiming for zero, they're asking "can we reopen our economies, and have a level of infections and hospitalisations we can deal with?"

    And they're coming up with the answer "yes".
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I get the impression from my European colleagues that basically covid is over.

    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Are they not able to look at case rate figures?
    They’re not reading the figures.
    They’re just responding to:

    A - the opening up they see locally
    B - their own interaction with vaccines
    C - the scary stuff on the news about the U.K.
    So uninformed nonsense then?
    I never said it was informed.

    I shared it because it’s interesting (and annoying) that they are basically “over covid” whereas in this country many still seem wedded to indefinite forms of lockdown.

    I do feel we are squandering out vax success regarding opening up.
    It's pretty clear that a significant section of the public is happy with the status quo of restrictions for other people

    [clue: they don't go to nightclubs and the bowling clubs have reopened so all's good there]
    I know that nothing like it can or will possibly happen, BUT... the most effective way to finish off the restrictions would be to tie the value of the state pension to the youth unemployment rate and the furlough bill. Those two indicators go up, the state pension goes down. Would concentrate minds wonderfully.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585
    edited June 2021

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    maaarsh said:

    I remember last year on here being told that 'nobody' liked lockdown and restrictions. I think over the next month or so any remaining doubt will cease that there absolutely are people, some in positions of influence, who really don't want this to end.

    Their views won't be expressed in that form, but we'll be a long way past the point of rational disagreement with ending lockdown before everyone will accept we can move on.

    I think that some people consider there is a form of moral virtue in lockdowns.
    I have definitely seen this.

    Some of my mates were very judgy about my (entirely legal) business travel in November. It didn't seem to occur to them that some of us are can't always work from home.....
    It’s annoying as hell when those needing to travel on business, or separated from family for more than a year, are pushed out of the conversation in favour of those who just want a week on a beach somewhere.
    Entirely agree. And the constant narrative about holidays inevitably leads to the scenes we are seeing in Portugal with people desperate to return before the quarantine requirements kick in. Quite why they had to go away in the first place is beyond me (Cabinet ministers included).
    I'm sceptical about many people claiming to need to travel on business though. If you just need to talk to people, do it by Zoom. If you are a specialist engineer who needs to tinker with some piece of kit and can't find the expertise locally, fair enough
    I would never hold a serious conversation with someone on a computer/device.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    edited June 2021

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    Hoyle is a lightweight.

    He’s already given up trying to stop Johnson lying.

    At the end of the day, Overseas Aid is a form of regressive taxation imposed by the richer parts of society who tend to be the most vocal about it, on the poorest who prefer to spend the money at home but whose voices get drowned out by the calls of "what about the children?".

    If rich people want to contribute more to funding overseas aid, then they should donate more aggressively to charities, via which they can also take advantage of Gift Aid.

    They also do not help themselves by defending the target when there are clear examples of the UK diverting money towards countries that either do not need it (e.g. China) or spend it on frivolous projects such as space launches (e.g. India).
    During the whole Brexit comedy, I attended a city dinner.

    In an attempt to divert the conversation from the inevitable, I introduced the tale of one of Cameron's aides, who asked why (as a philosophical question) he should care more about the welfare of a UK citizen than that of a someone in the poorer parts of the world.

    An HAC officer at the table pointed out that he was on duty that weekend (some kind of TA exercise), had a large number of armed men under his command and was jolly interested in this idea of flexible allegiance.
    It's a perfectly valid question. Especially if put a different way.

    Does a country whose wealth is based to a large degree on exploitation of other parts of the world have an obligation to help those parts of the world today?

    Maybe yes, maybe no. It's a debate you can have. But it's hardly a no-brainer.
    In philosophical terms, it's a part of the social contract. If I expect a specific group of people to obey the laws which I pass, and to pay the taxes which I levy, then I owe it to them to prioritise their interests, rather than the interests of humanity in general.

    Another way of looking at it is that being a leader of a country is like being a trustee. A trustee owes duties to his beneficiaries, not to the world in general.

    If I wish to promote the interests of humanity in general, I can always join an NGO.
    But even leaving aside an imperialist past prioritizing domestic interests doesn't map to no obligation to poorer parts of the world. Eg if it's a choice between providing clean water for somewhere dirt poor or (same price) a 2nd weekly bin collection in Tory marginals, this is for me at the very least a toughie.
    There's an irony in your post in that you've inadvertently made a quasi-imperialist case along the line British socialists did in the 1950s.

    Our responsibility for ensuring such countries were well-governed ended upon independence.

    Now, the choice we have is that either we decide to intervene directly in projects in those countries, because "we know best", or we funnel that aid through their Governments and hope they spend it on the right things.
    Not sure I see irony there. I think in general there's a moral obligation on rich countries to help poor ones and that the obligation is particularly strong for a country with our imperialist past. I also (like you) think it works as self-interest too. Soft power. Global Britain.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    Andy_JS said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    maaarsh said:

    I remember last year on here being told that 'nobody' liked lockdown and restrictions. I think over the next month or so any remaining doubt will cease that there absolutely are people, some in positions of influence, who really don't want this to end.

    Their views won't be expressed in that form, but we'll be a long way past the point of rational disagreement with ending lockdown before everyone will accept we can move on.

    I think that some people consider there is a form of moral virtue in lockdowns.
    I have definitely seen this.

    Some of my mates were very judgy about my (entirely legal) business travel in November. It didn't seem to occur to them that some of us are can't always work from home.....
    It’s annoying as hell when those needing to travel on business, or separated from family for more than a year, are pushed out of the conversation in favour of those who just want a week on a beach somewhere.
    Entirely agree. And the constant narrative about holidays inevitably leads to the scenes we are seeing in Portugal with people desperate to return before the quarantine requirements kick in. Quite why they had to go away in the first place is beyond me (Cabinet ministers included).
    I'm sceptical about many people claiming to need to travel on business though. If you just need to talk to people, do it by Zoom. If you are a specialist engineer who needs to tinker with some piece of kit and can't find the expertise locally, fair enough
    I would never hold a serious conversation with someone on a computer/device.
    Why not? It's really useful. Even before the pandemic it was something I would do regularly for work.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I get the impression from my European colleagues that basically covid is over.

    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Are they not able to look at case rate figures?
    They’re not reading the figures.
    They’re just responding to:

    A - the opening up they see locally
    B - their own interaction with vaccines
    C - the scary stuff on the news about the U.K.
    So uninformed nonsense then?
    I never said it was informed.

    I shared it because it’s interesting (and annoying) that they are basically “over covid” whereas in this country many still seem wedded to indefinite forms of lockdown.

    I do feel we are squandering out vax success regarding opening up.
    It's pretty clear that a significant section of the public is happy with the status quo of restrictions for other people

    [clue: they don't go to nightclubs and the bowling clubs have reopened so all's good there]
    I know that nothing like it can or will possibly happen, BUT... the most effective way to finish off the restrictions would be to tie the value of the state pension to the youth unemployment rate and the furlough bill. Those two indicators go up, the state pension goes down. Would concentrate minds wonderfully.
    The most selfish generation in history, happily claiming their unfunded final salary pension schemes, sitting in their over-valused homes with planning permissions denied for new building. And they had 1 more gift for us!
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited June 2021
    It is about 3 times harder to build trust and empathy over video conf.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    6,048 new cases....that's basically double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?

    Case numbers are pretty much irrelevant at this point - the more important stat is number in hospital, which is staying flat.
    I wish people would stop saying that. Today's PHE data, as I said above, shows an undeniable increase and the direction of travel is *not* looking good.
    Looking at @Andy_Cooke’s analysis about three posts up, there’s a small rise, but not anything that looks like overwhelming the healthcare system any time soon.
    Let's assume the number of people in hospital is increasing at 20% week-over-week.

    That means we will go:

    June:
    1,000
    1,200
    1,440
    1,728

    July:
    2,074
    2,488
    2,986
    3,583

    August:
    4,300
    5,160
    6,192
    7,430

    Those numbers are not great, but they're also well below what we've seen historically in the UK.

    But they're also unlikely to be realised. Why?

    Because they are running up against the number of people unvaccinated (or single vaccinated) relentlessly falling. By the end of August, how many unvaccinated people are there going to be in the UK?

    It's also really important to realise that right now the number of potential CV19 hosts is falling, and that fall is accelerating.

    If you go from 100 unvaccinated people to 90, that's only a 10% reduction in the number of hosts. If you go from 30 to 20, that's a 33% drop. So, from the virus's point of view, the UK is becoming an ever more hostile place to be.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited June 2021
    rcs1000 said:


    If you go from 100 unvaccinated people to 90, that's only a 10% reduction in the number of hosts. If you go from 30 to 20, that's a 33% drop. So, from the virus's point of view, the UK is becoming an ever more hostile place to be.

    More evidence of UK hostile environment for migrants....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    Hoyle is a lightweight.

    He’s already given up trying to stop Johnson lying.

    At the end of the day, Overseas Aid is a form of regressive taxation imposed by the richer parts of society who tend to be the most vocal about it, on the poorest who prefer to spend the money at home but whose voices get drowned out by the calls of "what about the children?".

    If rich people want to contribute more to funding overseas aid, then they should donate more aggressively to charities, via which they can also take advantage of Gift Aid.

    They also do not help themselves by defending the target when there are clear examples of the UK diverting money towards countries that either do not need it (e.g. China) or spend it on frivolous projects such as space launches (e.g. India).
    During the whole Brexit comedy, I attended a city dinner.

    In an attempt to divert the conversation from the inevitable, I introduced the tale of one of Cameron's aides, who asked why (as a philosophical question) he should care more about the welfare of a UK citizen than that of a someone in the poorer parts of the world.

    An HAC officer at the table pointed out that he was on duty that weekend (some kind of TA exercise), had a large number of armed men under his command and was jolly interested in this idea of flexible allegiance.
    It's a perfectly valid question. Especially if put a different way.

    Does a country whose wealth is based to a large degree on exploitation of other parts of the world have an obligation to help those parts of the world today?

    Maybe yes, maybe no. It's a debate you can have. But it's hardly a no-brainer.
    In philosophical terms, it's a part of the social contract. If I expect a specific group of people to obey the laws which I pass, and to pay the taxes which I levy, then I owe it to them to prioritise their interests, rather than the interests of humanity in general.

    Another way of looking at it is that being a leader of a country is like being a trustee. A trustee owes duties to his beneficiaries, not to the world in general.

    If I wish to promote the interests of humanity in general, I can always join an NGO.
    But even leaving aside an imperialist past prioritizing domestic interests doesn't map to no obligation to poorer parts of the world. Eg if it's a choice between providing clean water for somewhere dirt poor or (same price) a 2nd weekly bin collection in Tory marginals, this is for me at the very least a toughie.
    No man is an island, and all that. But, I was answering, in general terms, the point raised by Cameron's aide.
    Well ok. A government should prioritize the needs of its own citizens. That's a wrap.

    Then depending what "prioritize" means, that could be consistent with anything from 0% overseas aid to a very chunky % indeed.

    But anyway, yes, I get you.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264

    rcs1000 said:


    If you go from 100 unvaccinated people to 90, that's only a 10% reduction in the number of hosts. If you go from 30 to 20, that's a 33% drop. So, from the virus's point of view, the UK is becoming an ever more hostile place to be.

    More evidence of UK hostile environment for migrants....
    Don't give the Gruinad any more ideas ffs
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I get the impression from my European colleagues that basically covid is over.

    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Are they not able to look at case rate figures?
    They’re not reading the figures.
    They’re just responding to:

    A - the opening up they see locally
    B - their own interaction with vaccines
    C - the scary stuff on the news about the U.K.
    So uninformed nonsense then?
    I never said it was informed.

    I shared it because it’s interesting (and annoying) that they are basically “over covid” whereas in this country many still seem wedded to indefinite forms of lockdown.

    I do feel we are squandering out vax success regarding opening up.
    It's pretty clear that a significant section of the public is happy with the status quo of restrictions for other people

    [clue: they don't go to nightclubs and the bowling clubs have reopened so all's good there]
    I know that nothing like it can or will possibly happen, BUT... the most effective way to finish off the restrictions would be to tie the value of the state pension to the youth unemployment rate and the furlough bill. Those two indicators go up, the state pension goes down. Would concentrate minds wonderfully.
    The horrendous selfishness of the boomer generation really has been something to behold in this pandemic.

    They have thrown their offspring to the wolves.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    It is about 3 times harder to build trust and empathy over video conf.

    Yeah, it's far more difficult to build a new relationship, or train new people, purely over zoom. But for people you have long standing collaborations with, it's a very useful tool.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    I get the impression from my European colleagues that basically covid is over.

    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Are they not able to look at case rate figures?
    They’re not reading the figures.
    They’re just responding to:

    A - the opening up they see locally
    B - their own interaction with vaccines
    C - the scary stuff on the news about the U.K.
    Perhaps they are better at handling risk than we are.
    I agree.

    I think - like in the US - they're happy with a certain base level of Covid as they reopen their economies. They're not aiming for zero, they're asking "can we reopen our economies, and have a level of infections and hospitalisations we can deal with?"

    And they're coming up with the answer "yes".
    The French have always been a very pro-liberty nation. I remember my mother tut-tutting on family holidays over how much risk the parents were prepared to let their children take in open water and on the ski slopes. Of course, that means that many French children can swim and ski from an early age!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,657

    It is about 3 times harder to build trust and empathy over video conf.

    A joke usually does the trick.

    'Worst onlyfans ever!'
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080

    It is about 3 times harder to build trust and empathy over video conf.

    A joke usually does the trick.

    'Worst onlyfans ever!'
    Could be a bit tricky if the response is what is onlyfans....while hearing the tapping on the keyboard as they google it.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,238
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    I get the impression from my European colleagues that basically covid is over.

    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Are they not able to look at case rate figures?
    They’re not reading the figures.
    They’re just responding to:

    A - the opening up they see locally
    B - their own interaction with vaccines
    C - the scary stuff on the news about the U.K.
    Perhaps they are better at handling risk than we are.
    I agree.

    I think - like in the US - they're happy with a certain base level of Covid as they reopen their economies. They're not aiming for zero, they're asking "can we reopen our economies, and have a level of infections and hospitalisations we can deal with?"

    And they're coming up with the answer "yes".
    The history of the last winter might have a mental impact there. Most Western European countries did a moderately reasonable job of keeping Covid cases and deaths from getting out of hand over the winter. Grim numbers of lives lost, but manageable, without the huge peak that the UK experienced in January. At this point, I'm not blaming anyone for that peak, but just noting that it happened.

    And whilst it might be that the situation in June isn't what it was in December, it would be inhuman for that experience not to have an impact and engender an excess of caution.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    maaarsh said:

    Andy_JS said:

    maaarsh said:

    I remember last year on here being told that 'nobody' liked lockdown and restrictions. I think over the next month or so any remaining doubt will cease that there absolutely are people, some in positions of influence, who really don't want this to end.

    Their views won't be expressed in that form, but we'll be a long way past the point of rational disagreement with ending lockdown before everyone will accept we can move on.

    Most of them are not positively in favour of lockdown, (although a handful may be). It's just that it doesn't particularly bother them, and if it goes on for a few more months, no problem.
    Tomorrow, tomorrow, it's always a day away.
    Morgen Morgen nur nicht Heute sagen immer bange Leute.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,920

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    I get the impression from my European colleagues that basically covid is over.

    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Are they not able to look at case rate figures?
    They’re not reading the figures.
    They’re just responding to:

    A - the opening up they see locally
    B - their own interaction with vaccines
    C - the scary stuff on the news about the U.K.
    Perhaps they are better at handling risk than we are.
    I agree.

    I think - like in the US - they're happy with a certain base level of Covid as they reopen their economies. They're not aiming for zero, they're asking "can we reopen our economies, and have a level of infections and hospitalisations we can deal with?"

    And they're coming up with the answer "yes".
    The French have always been a very pro-liberty nation. I remember my mother tut-tutting on family holidays over how much risk the parents were prepared to let their children take in open water and on the ski slopes. Of course, that means that many French children can swim and ski from an early age!
    I could not believe it when my French godson went on his first week-long school trip. Il a trois ans! Most British 3-year-olds would not be trusted to walk from the living room to the kitchen unaccompanied.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,657

    It is about 3 times harder to build trust and empathy over video conf.

    A joke usually does the trick.

    'Worst onlyfans ever!'
    Could be a bit tricky if the response is what is onlyfans....while hearing the tapping on the keyboard as they google it.
    Been there.

    My colleague has a cat who hijacks pretty much every video call into an onlyfans.

    I've seen way too much of that cat's arsehole these last fifteen months.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    HERE’s a question for the pub quiz, assuming it’s Covid-compliant: who’s the most unsackable man in Scottish politics?
    At first glance, you might take your pick of the upper echelons of the SNP administration — from John Swinney to Humza Yousaf.
    But you get bonus points if you plumped for head honcho Peter Murrell, the party’s chief executive — the numero uno administrator.
    He’s an enigmatic type, or has been until recently: we know from Twitter that he cooks for his wife Nicola Sturgeon, and they squabble over decorating the Christmas tree.


    https://graham-grant.medium.com/no-matter-the-problems-at-the-top-of-the-snp-sturgeon-is-hardly-likely-to-sack-her-own-husband-5faf54431b4c
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770

    HERE’s a question for the pub quiz, assuming it’s Covid-compliant: who’s the most unsackable man in Scottish politics?
    At first glance, you might take your pick of the upper echelons of the SNP administration — from John Swinney to Humza Yousaf.
    But you get bonus points if you plumped for head honcho Peter Murrell, the party’s chief executive — the numero uno administrator.
    He’s an enigmatic type, or has been until recently: we know from Twitter that he cooks for his wife Nicola Sturgeon, and they squabble over decorating the Christmas tree.


    https://graham-grant.medium.com/no-matter-the-problems-at-the-top-of-the-snp-sturgeon-is-hardly-likely-to-sack-her-own-husband-5faf54431b4c

    Gordon Brown.

    He's back like a bad penny day in, and day out.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    I get the impression from my European colleagues that basically covid is over.

    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Are they not able to look at case rate figures?
    They’re not reading the figures.
    They’re just responding to:

    A - the opening up they see locally
    B - their own interaction with vaccines
    C - the scary stuff on the news about the U.K.
    Perhaps they are better at handling risk than we are.
    I agree.

    I think - like in the US - they're happy with a certain base level of Covid as they reopen their economies. They're not aiming for zero, they're asking "can we reopen our economies, and have a level of infections and hospitalisations we can deal with?"

    And they're coming up with the answer "yes".
    This kind of assumes that what we are doing right now is not risky.

    Our Corbynite economics IS risky. Its f8cking risky. Its f8cking suicidal. Especially when other countries are moving away from this approach and getting back to normal.

    Think the markets won't react? possibly in a disorderly fashion? Johnson could be dead in the water if there's a run on the bond market or sterling.

    If this goes on we cannot rule that out.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    maaarsh said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I get the impression from my European colleagues that basically covid is over.

    In fact, they think we are still riddled with it via the “Indian variant” and express pity, concern etc.

    Are they not able to look at case rate figures?
    They’re not reading the figures.
    They’re just responding to:

    A - the opening up they see locally
    B - their own interaction with vaccines
    C - the scary stuff on the news about the U.K.
    So uninformed nonsense then?
    I never said it was informed.

    I shared it because it’s interesting (and annoying) that they are basically “over covid” whereas in this country many still seem wedded to indefinite forms of lockdown.

    I do feel we are squandering out vax success regarding opening up.
    It's pretty clear that a significant section of the public is happy with the status quo of restrictions for other people

    [clue: they don't go to nightclubs and the bowling clubs have reopened so all's good there]
    I know that nothing like it can or will possibly happen, BUT... the most effective way to finish off the restrictions would be to tie the value of the state pension to the youth unemployment rate and the furlough bill. Those two indicators go up, the state pension goes down. Would concentrate minds wonderfully.
    The most selfish generation in history, happily claiming their unfunded final salary pension schemes, sitting in their over-valused homes with planning permissions denied for new building. And they had 1 more gift for us!
    Brexit?
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    6,048 new cases....that's basically double same time last week....do I need to start going all Tweak?

    Case numbers are pretty much irrelevant at this point - the more important stat is number in hospital, which is staying flat.
    I wish people would stop saying that. Today's PHE data, as I said above, shows an undeniable increase and the direction of travel is *not* looking good.
    Looking at @Andy_Cooke’s analysis about three posts up, there’s a small rise, but not anything that looks like overwhelming the healthcare system any time soon.
    Let's assume the number of people in hospital is increasing at 20% week-over-week.

    That means we will go:

    June:
    1,000
    1,200
    1,440
    1,728

    July:
    2,074
    2,488
    2,986
    3,583

    August:
    4,300
    5,160
    6,192
    7,430

    Those numbers are not great, but they're also well below what we've seen historically in the UK.

    But they're also unlikely to be realised. Why?

    Because they are running up against the number of people unvaccinated (or single vaccinated) relentlessly falling. By the end of August, how many unvaccinated people are there going to be in the UK?

    It's also really important to realise that right now the number of potential CV19 hosts is falling, and that fall is accelerating.

    If you go from 100 unvaccinated people to 90, that's only a 10% reduction in the number of hosts. If you go from 30 to 20, that's a 33% drop. So, from the virus's point of view, the UK is becoming an ever more hostile place to be.
    Prior to today we weren't even anywhere near 20% a week growth.

    Having said that, the beds occupied data is 2 days more timely than admissions, and strongly suggests that tomorrow's admissions figure will look ugly.
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