LOL! Nice to have something to laugh at on these dark days.
In answer to your WTF...Tories being Tories
But he has a serious point. At least the 1922 Tories are starting to object to what this government are doing.
Where is Starmer? He can't wait to nod through more illiberal and never ending restrictions.
Starmer is a statist social democrat not a liberal, so backing lockdown and restriction extensions is what you would expect him to do.
Similarly there are plenty of authoritarian conservatives too, it is the Liberal Democrats and libertarians within the Tory Party and RefUK who you would expect to be most opposed to lockdown restrictions, not Labour
"Covid levels are now so low in Britain that the Prime Minister could have proclaimed the second wave over yesterday. Instead, he asked for his Government’s emergency powers to be extended for another six months. Why, if there is no longer an emergency? Sir Keir Starmer didn’t ask."
"at the heart of this is a question of what kind of country we are – and whether liberal Britain became a casualty of the pandemic."
Are people at last going to wake up? The threat to liberal democracy is far more serious than the threat of the virus itself. In my view this was always the case.
It was only 6 months ago that Johnson, when asked why covid rates were higher in the UK than in Germany, said this: "Actually there is an important difference between our country and many other countries around the world, that is that our country is a freedom-loving country"
I don't know. Where I am there have never been any rules against leaving your house, or going to a park to sit on a bench. Nobody has ever been stopped by the police from buying Easter eggs (did that really happen?). It's not illegal to leave the country. The right to demonstrate is guaranteed in the constitution.
A year ago the public would not have considered allowing this more than a single minute longer than is absolutely necessary.
Yet here we are. Seemingly the public can't get enough of it according to focus groups.
The polling is pretty clear that the impact is very divisive in the literal sense. Lockdown had made a third of th epopulation better off, and a third worse off, frequently reinforcing existing differences. I've seen an academic study which shows that people who commute to work (typically office workers) are saving more on petrol than they're losing in heating costs, while people who walk to work (typically retail staff and manual workers) are experiencing the opposite. Similarly, a third say they positively like lockdown - more time with the family, quieter roads and environment - and a third hate it.
None of us should extrapolate from our own feelings to assume we represent the majority.
We're not dealing with Pepsi vs Coke here, Nick. It's an asymmetric dynamic.
If you like lockdown that's great - you might be better off, quality of life improves, spend more time in your apple orchard, etc - hurrah.
If, however, you don't like lockdown there may easily and likely be serious mental health consequences. Goodness we have seen here on PB, a tiny sample of the UK, how many posters have struggled with their mental wellbeing.
Yesterday I heard that the mother in law of a friend who's son had committed suicide...had committed suicide.
Mr. JS, it's the same sort of people who think abolishing cash is a smart idea.
I would also like to give the Lib Dems some rare praise for their stance on this.
Stockholm Syndrome is rubbish.
Abolishing cash is a great idea.
It would also be a great victory in the war on drugs.
Ha ha ha
He believes in victories in the War on Drugs - how nice....
I have some valuable Greek CDS to sell you, as part of a complex package of assets including Thames waterfront property (meet me at low tide) and a low mileage bridge at Hammersmith.....
Mr. JS, it's the same sort of people who think abolishing cash is a smart idea.
I would also like to give the Lib Dems some rare praise for their stance on this.
Stockholm Syndrome is rubbish.
Abolishing cash is a great idea.
It would also be a great victory in the war on drugs.
Simple rule: if you can't choose to live and exist without a smartphone (even if it's less convenient, and a tad more expensive) then you're not really free.
Abolishing cash would be like abolishing books.
Of course you're free, smartphones give you even more liberty.
Lockdown has been a challenge yet thanks to technology I've been able to talk to friends all over the world for nothing.
Would you prefer to contact them via post?
Smartphone's are a personal tracking device, plus they need power and juice to work.
I always want to have an off-the-grid option. And, yes, many friends are touched with a personal letter - we all don't write enough of them.
The people threatening him need to be prosecuted. Now.
Agreed. There is a right to free speech, but not a right to threaten or incite actual violence.
I liked the suggestion after the Charlie Hebdo attacks that every paper in the free world should have put the cartoons on their front pages the next day. Every school in the country should be showing cartoons like this. Anyone who believes in freedom should be saying "I am Spartacus" and everyone who incites violence over that should be prosecuted.
Here's a thought experiment and apologies for personalising it. Would you be in favour of your daughters' school showing these cartoons and putting an ad in the local papers to that effect?
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Where are you getting this from that this is what is going to happen?
Utterly inexcusable if it did happen and I've seen no government spokespeople say it will happen. I can't believe it will.
You seem to be reacting to what conspiracy theorists are saying will happen, not what anyone is actually saying will happen. Restrictions end 21/6 and to do otherwise will go down like a lead balloon.
Plenty of other articles suggesting that 2 metre social distancing will be back (note currently it's 1.5 metres) unless you do this.
We are getting the same kite-flying as before which was remarkably similar to what then was enacted. And some of it is coming from the PM. Of course maybe he doesn't know what is happening in his own government. That could be a possibility I suppose.
Nothing in that article says what you're saying, that distancing rules would still be required post 21/6.
Saying that pubs have the option to require vaccines, if they wish to do so, is not the same thing as saying its compulsory or that social distancing will be required.
Social distancing will be required until 21/6. After that though, they're pledged to remove it.
Elsewhere they have stated that the option will be either social distancing or vaccine passports/ blood tests etc. That is not a pledge to remove. That is a continuation of restrictions.
No-one has explained to me how a venue is supposed to show how it complies with, say, guidelines to get a vax passport for customers. Either it needs to keep records- great, your local boozer has your medical details - or it doesn't in which case what is the point.
And if you believe that any of this government's pledges mean a damn thing, well ......
Who has stated that? A government spokesman?
I don't think so. I recall the idea being floated here by if I recall correctly Nick Palmer. Nick's not a government spokesperson.
As for complying with guidelines, it won't be required if its optional but actually surely you know that venues do that all the time? They have policies in place, training on how those policies are done - that is how Challenge 21/25 works in premises all around the country. Your daughter will have an age verification policy in place already I bet - you could ask her how she operates her age verification policy if you want to and the Council and Police have the right to ask to see her age verification policy since its a licensing requirement. That doesn't mean they keep records of every punter's age on file, that's not what it means.
This is getting beyond ridiculous isn't it? We were told that vaccines were the way out of this utter mess but the goalposts are being moved and both main parties in Westminster with a few notable exceptions in the Tory Party are happy to give government carte blanche to extend the authoritarian, illiberal half-life we are all currently living and even extend it further with vaccine passports and the like.
Surely there is a tipping point where the people say enough? In Wales we have Drakeford doubling down on the misery act - saying that social distancing, masking and no international travel will be in place for the rest of 2021. It goes without saying that would preclude sporting venues and other hospitality businesses opening up at anywhere near full capacity. I'm convinced that his persona of doom is driving votes away from Labour - people vote for hope not depression.
I would be less worried if Johnson was going to be true to his word about ending all restrictions in England on 21/6 as political reality would then have to bite here, but all the signs are that we are being softened up for a level of control and restriction to remain in place. The ban on leaving the country is sinister, and the justification of variants is sickening, If another country is willing to accept me crossing their borders, vaccinated, unvaccinated, with a negative test or not it should be no business of the Government to impinge on my liberty to travel.
My politics might be of the left - but at the moment I'd vote for any party willing to stand up for personal freedom, liberty and liberal democracy.
"Covid levels are now so low in Britain that the Prime Minister could have proclaimed the second wave over yesterday. Instead, he asked for his Government’s emergency powers to be extended for another six months. Why, if there is no longer an emergency? Sir Keir Starmer didn’t ask."
"at the heart of this is a question of what kind of country we are – and whether liberal Britain became a casualty of the pandemic."
Are people at last going to wake up? The threat to liberal democracy is far more serious than the threat of the virus itself. In my view this was always the case.
It was only 6 months ago that Johnson, when asked why covid rates were higher in the UK than in Germany, said this: "Actually there is an important difference between our country and many other countries around the world, that is that our country is a freedom-loving country"
I don't know. Where I am there have never been any rules against leaving your house, or going to a park to sit on a bench. Nobody has ever been stopped by the police from buying Easter eggs (did that really happen?). It's not illegal to leave the country. The right to demonstrate is guaranteed in the constitution.
The EU picking a fight with AZ was bizarre given we've only imported a million doses from the EU plants total I think - so proportionately our share from their output is less than their own....
Now Pfizer, J&J and Novavax are going to be ultracautious wrt anything EU related.
Heart of stone and stuff.
We were (and are) importing a fair bit of Pfizer - which is their favourite.....
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
I don't hate the comparison at all. If anything it's worse than you say. Then some MPs were trying to ignore a democratic vote. This time people have voted for this useless shower of authoritarians.
People are obsessing about flags and singing Britons never shall be slaves at the Proms while obediently agreeing to be slaves.
Daily temperature tests indeed.
They can fuck right off.
Vaccines are meant to be our way out of this. Not a tunnel into ever more restrictions and controls.
If any of that were to happen, then I agree entirely they can fuck off. And I would quit the party again, as I quit it the last time we had an authoritarian as party leader.
I simply do not believe it will happen. I might be in denial, but I just don't believe it is possible that will be done.
Restrictions to end 21/6, no ifs no buts. That's my line.
Except in Wales where Drakeford states on the news that he expects restrictions to last into 2022
I too would be more likely to vote LibDem if they start opposing these frankly ridiculous restrictions.
No one seems to want to challenge the spurious scaremongering of Johnson and his small coterie of mad scientists. Chris Whitty, for instance, was allowed to get away with utter nonsense the other day. 'Another 30,000 may die if we ease restrictions too quickly,' he stated. But this was based on an absolutely ludicrous assumption that 1/3rd of the population would be exposed to the virus. Thanks to the fact that around 10 to 20 million have already had covid and another 30 million have been vaccinated it is UTTER NONSENSE to suggest that by easing restrictions sooner 1/3rd of the population could be exposed to the virus. There simply isn't the R rate to enable that to happen. It's literally impossible. And there is no evidence that these so-called variants are going to create trouble for those vaccinated.
I'm tired of this. Not just because I'm tired of it but because I'm tired of the fear that has turned people into cowering dogs, beaten into submission by their masters.
It's time to stick two fingers up at the Government, have some bloody courage and get out there. Yes some people will die but not that many now. That's the whole frigging point of vaccination. As Israel realises.
It's pathetic what we have become.
And it's pathetic what the official Opposition have become.
The estimate of people who died unnecessarily over Christmas due to laxity and other factors is between 20k and 30k, so I would not be so hasty.
The wait until we can be sure is really very short.
This is exactly the kind of misguided terror which is paralysing people into submission.
Since Christmas the United Kingdom has embarked on one of the most successful vaccination rollouts in the world. 30 million people have already received a jab: nearly 50% of the whole population. The jabs are incredibly efficacious.
We have been reduced to quivering wrecks.
Stop living in fear. Get back to life.
I agree, also mental health has suffered from the government's terror campaign. I saw a study saying that a significantly higher proportion of the country were reporting anxiety and stress since it started, ironically more women than men, even though they are much less likely to be affected seriously by the virus.
Last year, a couple of healthy young friends of mine (separately) decided not to leave their homes for three months. Utterly irrational terror, and almost certainly did far more damage through stress and lack of exercise than catching a virus would have at that age.
Didn't leave their house at all ?!
Apparently not. I was suprised too.
The estimate of unnecessary deaths over Christmas is robust imo. Recognising reality is not living in fear.
For the record, I am Category 2 (cancer treatment), and am officially shielding until the end of March.
I have been continuing to risk assess each activity and doing what I think necessary throughout based on prevailing risk throughout the pandemic, including shopping, walking for exercise and eating out where appropriate. Really, life has mainly continued with some precautions.
I will not be downloading any App, just as I did not download the T&T app.
If they try to leverage this to push through a required App, I will happily join you in Parliament Square.
I think we're saying the same thing. Young fit people shouldn't cower in their homes for no reason. For vulnerable people the decision is more rational.
"Covid levels are now so low in Britain that the Prime Minister could have proclaimed the second wave over yesterday. Instead, he asked for his Government’s emergency powers to be extended for another six months. Why, if there is no longer an emergency? Sir Keir Starmer didn’t ask."
"at the heart of this is a question of what kind of country we are – and whether liberal Britain became a casualty of the pandemic."
Are people at last going to wake up? The threat to liberal democracy is far more serious than the threat of the virus itself. In my view this was always the case.
It was only 6 months ago that Johnson, when asked why covid rates were higher in the UK than in Germany, said this: "Actually there is an important difference between our country and many other countries around the world, that is that our country is a freedom-loving country"
I don't know. Where I am there have never been any rules against leaving your house, or going to a park to sit on a bench. Nobody has ever been stopped by the police from buying Easter eggs (did that really happen?). It's not illegal to leave the country. The right to demonstrate is guaranteed in the constitution.
Yep this is what many Brits fail to appreciate. A friend in Europe the other day said that on account of an increase in cases, a new lockdown was coming - restaurants would be closing earlier than they had been and the curfew was going to be an hour earlier (10pm IIRC).
I too would be more likely to vote LibDem if they start opposing these frankly ridiculous restrictions.
No one seems to want to challenge the spurious scaremongering of Johnson and his small coterie of mad scientists. Chris Whitty, for instance, was allowed to get away with utter nonsense the other day. 'Another 30,000 may die if we ease restrictions too quickly,' he stated. But this was based on an absolutely ludicrous assumption that 1/3rd of the population would be exposed to the virus. Thanks to the fact that around 10 to 20 million have already had covid and another 30 million have been vaccinated it is UTTER NONSENSE to suggest that by easing restrictions sooner 1/3rd of the population could be exposed to the virus. There simply isn't the R rate to enable that to happen. It's literally impossible. And there is no evidence that these so-called variants are going to create trouble for those vaccinated.
I'm tired of this. Not just because I'm tired of it but because I'm tired of the fear that has turned people into cowering dogs, beaten into submission by their masters.
It's time to stick two fingers up at the Government, have some bloody courage and get out there. Yes some people will die but not that many now. That's the whole frigging point of vaccination. As Israel realises.
It's pathetic what we have become.
And it's pathetic what the official Opposition have become.
Utterly risible hyperbole (!) designed purely to signal what a great big rugged freedom lovin' bear you are. And very well expressed too.
So that's a "nice one" and an "oh do stop it" from me.
Good for the professor. The only loons are those who would still try to push us toward a war that has no strategic benefit to the UK, to topple a dictatorship with at least some regard for religious toleration and personal freedom, and replace it with a vicious Islamist theocracy and terrorist breeding ground. We have sided with 'the baddies' in Syria. If we don't like Russia holding the moral high ground, don't give them it.
So you think lying, smearing people as "state agents" and working with the FSB under Putin is a good thing?
Or do you just believe in the childish garbage about the "Enemy of my enemy...." ??
I don't condone deception, or subjecting honest people to calumnies, but I am consistently surprised at the naivety displayed on PB about these types of issues. We are appalled at 'Russian interference' via sponsorship of organisations like Wikileaks etc., yet simultaneously appalled when the activities of Western sponsored movements and NGO's are curtailed by Putin within Russia. But these activities are directly parallel. We are in an information war, and whilst I have not looked at what the professor has alleged, I have no doubt that the actions of the Syrian regime are being given a more negative slant (and those of the rebels glossed over) by several actors purporting to be neutral. Of course, the same is true of the Russian side.
It does very much feel like there's goal post shifting going on. I've hated lockdown. It's impacted on my mental health, my career progression, every aspect of life in a negative way. My wedding reception was about 15 of us eating takeaway pizza in a park (admittedly that wasn't so bad). I've been relatively lucky in that I at least own my own property and have a secure job.
I would be entirely happy to take my chances with the disease. Obviously I'd rather not catch it, but I'm young, fit and can assess risk for myself. Despite that, I do believe in responsibility to society and accepted restrictions on my basic freedoms to prevent the collapse of the healthcare system and benefit the more vulnerable.
Now every time I see comfortable older people talking about longer term restrictions or health officials saying things like 'social distancing is a low cost measure' it makes my blood boil. I've also found I've started having mild anxiety attacks at some of the pronouncements in the media.
I don't expect any particular sympathy, but I do find the way some people seem to be thinking hugely disturbing. If the government does try to keep social distancing or put in a new lockdown-lite next winter, I'm rapidly going to become a single issue voter.
Mr. JS, it's the same sort of people who think abolishing cash is a smart idea.
I would also like to give the Lib Dems some rare praise for their stance on this.
Stockholm Syndrome is rubbish.
Abolishing cash is a great idea.
It would also be a great victory in the war on drugs.
Ha ha ha
He believes in victories in the War on Drugs - how nice....
I have some valuable Greek CDS to sell you, as part of a complex package of assets including Thames waterfront property (meet me at low tide) and a low mileage bridge at Hammersmith.....
LOL! Nice to have something to laugh at on these dark days.
In answer to your WTF...Tories being Tories
But he has a serious point. At least the 1922 Tories are starting to object to what this government are doing.
Where is Starmer? He can't wait to nod through more illiberal and never ending restrictions.
Starmer is a statist social democrat not a liberal, so backing lockdown and restriction extensions is what you would expect him to do.
Similarly there are plenty of authoritarian conservatives too, it is the Liberal Democrats and libertarians within the Tory Party and RefUK who you would expect to be most opposed to lockdown restrictions, not Labour
The people threatening him need to be prosecuted. Now.
Agreed. There is a right to free speech, but not a right to threaten or incite actual violence.
I liked the suggestion after the Charlie Hebdo attacks that every paper in the free world should have put the cartoons on their front pages the next day. Every school in the country should be showing cartoons like this. Anyone who believes in freedom should be saying "I am Spartacus" and everyone who incites violence over that should be prosecuted.
I think the one to remember is the French Teacher murdered, where the pupil later admitted she was lying.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
I am with you (and I see Charles as well). Now that EU membership has ceased to be an issue it is exactly these sorts of principles that make me look favourably on the Lib Dems at a time when neither of the other main parties are in any way inspiring and, to a large extent, are quite repelling.
More like this from Ed Davey is, for me at least, a good way to make me consider them seriously for voting.
I think I'll be voting for the LDs at the local elections, especially after the way they voted last night.
Yes, I'm giving it some thought too.
Likewise. Ed Davey needs to get out of the traps and own this issue now. Move the party on from Brexit. Fantastic opportunity. Charles Kennedy would have taken it I rather suspect.
I think the less I hear from Ed Davey, though, the better. He might put me off.
Ed Davey already has done this. You obviously did not hear his brilliant speech at the recent Lib Dem conference.
Mr. JS, it's the same sort of people who think abolishing cash is a smart idea.
I would also like to give the Lib Dems some rare praise for their stance on this.
Stockholm Syndrome is rubbish.
Abolishing cash is a great idea.
It would also be a great victory in the war on drugs.
Ha ha ha
He believes in victories in the War on Drugs - how nice....
I have some valuable Greek CDS to sell you, as part of a complex package of assets including Thames waterfront property (meet me at low tide) and a low mileage bridge at Hammersmith.....
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
I don't hate the comparison at all. If anything it's worse than you say. Then some MPs were trying to ignore a democratic vote. This time people have voted for this useless shower of authoritarians.
People are obsessing about flags and singing Britons never shall be slaves at the Proms while obediently agreeing to be slaves.
Daily temperature tests indeed.
They can fuck right off.
Vaccines are meant to be our way out of this. Not a tunnel into ever more restrictions and controls.
If any of that were to happen, then I agree entirely they can fuck off. And I would quit the party again, as I quit it the last time we had an authoritarian as party leader.
I simply do not believe it will happen. I might be in denial, but I just don't believe it is possible that will be done.
Restrictions to end 21/6, no ifs no buts. That's my line.
Or what? You will quit the party. Who cares. I quit the party last year and they seem to have managed to put it behind them and are going from strength to strength.
Absolutely, but that's what I can do.
HYUFD likes to take pride in the fact that he has a 100% Tory voting record and I don't, but as far as I'm concerned the Party needs to win my vote not the other way around. Three times in my life I've not voted Conservative: 2001 (Labour with a pinched nose), 2002 or 2003 local elections (Lib Dem) and 2019 European Parliament (Brexit with a very pinched nose). When that's happened the party has changed not long after to improve.
If the Conservatives become authoritarian then I will vote Lib Dem or some other party. That's all I can do.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Where are you getting this from that this is what is going to happen?
Utterly inexcusable if it did happen and I've seen no government spokespeople say it will happen. I can't believe it will.
You seem to be reacting to what conspiracy theorists are saying will happen, not what anyone is actually saying will happen. Restrictions end 21/6 and to do otherwise will go down like a lead balloon.
Plenty of other articles suggesting that 2 metre social distancing will be back (note currently it's 1.5 metres) unless you do this.
We are getting the same kite-flying as before which was remarkably similar to what then was enacted. And some of it is coming from the PM. Of course maybe he doesn't know what is happening in his own government. That could be a possibility I suppose.
I know it’s an unpopular opinion here, but the government really needs Cummings back. No-one else would stand up to this civil service gold-plating bullshit, which they’re doing because they know it’s the one opportunity they have and the ‘opposition’ are all in favour of it.
Mr. JS, it's the same sort of people who think abolishing cash is a smart idea.
I would also like to give the Lib Dems some rare praise for their stance on this.
Stockholm Syndrome is rubbish.
Abolishing cash is a great idea.
It would also be a great victory in the war on drugs.
Simple rule: if you can't choose to live and exist without a smartphone (even if it's less convenient, and a tad more expensive) then you're not really free.
Abolishing cash would be like abolishing books.
Of course you're free, smartphones give you even more liberty.
Lockdown has been a challenge yet thanks to technology I've been able to talk to friends all over the world for nothing.
Would you prefer to contact them via post?
Smartphone's are a personal tracking device, plus they need power and juice to work.
I always want to have an off-the-grid option. And, yes, many friends are touched with a personal letter - we all don't write enough of them.
I am a man of letters.
I'm talking about the friend going through a rough spell in Ireland, our WhatsApp group, as well individually, can give him immediate support in a way a letter cannot.
A smartphone allows me to do things quicker and easier, allowing me more quality time.
The EU picking a fight with AZ was bizarre given we've only imported a million doses from the EU plants total I think - so proportionately our share from their output is less than their own....
Now Pfizer, J&J and Novavax are going to be ultracautious wrt anything EU related.
Heart of stone and stuff.
Pfizer rejected the EU position last night
The EU have done untold damage to their pharmaceutical industries, and many others will be wary of investment in the EU
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
I don't hate the comparison at all. If anything it's worse than you say. Then some MPs were trying to ignore a democratic vote. This time people have voted for this useless shower of authoritarians.
People are obsessing about flags and singing Britons never shall be slaves at the Proms while obediently agreeing to be slaves.
Daily temperature tests indeed.
They can fuck right off.
Vaccines are meant to be our way out of this. Not a tunnel into ever more restrictions and controls.
If any of that were to happen, then I agree entirely they can fuck off. And I would quit the party again, as I quit it the last time we had an authoritarian as party leader.
I simply do not believe it will happen. I might be in denial, but I just don't believe it is possible that will be done.
Restrictions to end 21/6, no ifs no buts. That's my line.
Or what? You will quit the party. Who cares. I quit the party last year and they seem to have managed to put it behind them and are going from strength to strength.
Absolutely, but that's what I can do.
HYUFD likes to take pride in the fact that he has a 100% Tory voting record and I don't, but as far as I'm concerned the Party needs to win my vote not the other way around. Three times in my life I've not voted Conservative: 2001 (Labour with a pinched nose), 2002 or 2003 local elections (Lib Dem) and 2019 European Parliament (Brexit with a very pinched nose). When that's happened the party has changed not long after to improve.
If the Conservatives become authoritarian then I will vote Lib Dem or some other party. That's all I can do.
I mean it is how politics works but I'm not (apropos of my quitting the Cons last year) now expecting to collect my Boris out by September winnings...
I think I'll be voting for the LDs at the local elections, especially after the way they voted last night.
Yes, I'm giving it some thought too.
Likewise. Ed Davey needs to get out of the traps and own this issue now. Move the party on from Brexit. Fantastic opportunity. Charles Kennedy would have taken it I rather suspect.
I think the less I hear from Ed Davey, though, the better. He might put me off.
Ed Davey already has done this. You obviously did not hear his brilliant speech at the recent Lib Dem conference.
Mr. JS, it's the same sort of people who think abolishing cash is a smart idea.
I would also like to give the Lib Dems some rare praise for their stance on this.
Stockholm Syndrome is rubbish.
Abolishing cash is a great idea.
It would also be a great victory in the war on drugs.
Ha ha ha
He believes in victories in the War on Drugs - how nice....
I have some valuable Greek CDS to sell you, as part of a complex package of assets including Thames waterfront property (meet me at low tide) and a low mileage bridge at Hammersmith.....
You try snorting some coke with a debit card.
One gets one of ones doctors to prescribe a course of suitable stimulants, Then the butler sends one of the lower servants to collect the prescription. The tube is manufactured by the family jewellers in stirling silver, surely?
Ed Davey already has done this. You obviously did not hear his brilliant speech at the recent Lib Dem conference.
Yes, this is stopping (or at least slowing) my drift away from the Lib Dems. While I was, unsurprisingly, a pretty hardcore remainer. I found the party's obsession with Brexit a bit much - I signed up to them because of my liberal politics, not because I think the EU is the be all and end all. Talking about civil liberties is the kind of thing they need to be doing more of, at least to keep niche supporters like me.
This is getting beyond ridiculous isn't it? We were told that vaccines were the way out of this utter mess but the goalposts are being moved and both main parties in Westminster with a few notable exceptions in the Tory Party are happy to give government carte blanche to extend the authoritarian, illiberal half-life we are all currently living and even extend it further with vaccine passports and the like.
Surely there is a tipping point where the people say enough? In Wales we have Drakeford doubling down on the misery act - saying that social distancing, masking and no international travel will be in place for the rest of 2021. It goes without saying that would preclude sporting venues and other hospitality businesses opening up at anywhere near full capacity. I'm convinced that his persona of doom is driving votes away from Labour - people vote for hope not depression.
I would be less worried if Johnson was going to be true to his word about ending all restrictions in England on 21/6 as political reality would then have to bite here, but all the signs are that we are being softened up for a level of control and restriction to remain in place. The ban on leaving the country is sinister, and the justification of variants is sickening, If another country is willing to accept me crossing their borders, vaccinated, unvaccinated, with a negative test or not it should be no business of the Government to impinge on my liberty to travel.
My politics might be of the left - but at the moment I'd vote for any party willing to stand up for personal freedom, liberty and liberal democracy.
Good post.
"Surely there is a tipping point where the people say enough?" - well I've thought that for twelve months. Still waiting. No end in sight. Personally, I think Sunak's largesse is a big factor. Keep paying people for staying at home and spring is coming ...
"Drakeford doubling down on the misery act" - yes, the behavior of devolved parliament leader's has been sickening. Falling over themselves for the "who can remove most liberties" title. Bizarre isn't it. Is this all becoming one giant exercise in virtue-signalling?
The people threatening him need to be prosecuted. Now.
Agreed. There is a right to free speech, but not a right to threaten or incite actual violence.
I liked the suggestion after the Charlie Hebdo attacks that every paper in the free world should have put the cartoons on their front pages the next day. Every school in the country should be showing cartoons like this. Anyone who believes in freedom should be saying "I am Spartacus" and everyone who incites violence over that should be prosecuted.
Here's a thought experiment and apologies for personalising it. Would you be in favour of your daughters' school showing these cartoons and putting an ad in the local papers to that effect?
People often take the route of least resistance.
Yes to that - though in my case it would be my son's school. Sadly I am pretty sure the school Governors would take a different position which is why we will never be rid of this fanatical religious rubbish.
Mr. JS, it's the same sort of people who think abolishing cash is a smart idea.
I would also like to give the Lib Dems some rare praise for their stance on this.
Stockholm Syndrome is rubbish.
Abolishing cash is a great idea.
It would also be a great victory in the war on drugs.
Simple rule: if you can't choose to live and exist without a smartphone (even if it's less convenient, and a tad more expensive) then you're not really free.
Abolishing cash would be like abolishing books.
Of course you're free, smartphones give you even more liberty.
Lockdown has been a challenge yet thanks to technology I've been able to talk to friends all over the world for nothing.
Would you prefer to contact them via post?
Smartphone's are a personal tracking device, plus they need power and juice to work.
I always want to have an off-the-grid option. And, yes, many friends are touched with a personal letter - we all don't write enough of them.
I am a man of letters.
I'm talking about the friend going through a rough spell in Ireland, our WhatsApp group, as well individually, can give him immediate support in a way a letter cannot.
A smartphone allows me to do things quicker and easier, allowing me more quality time.
I'm not saying smartphones aren't convenient or useful but I don't want them to take over the world and be the only way one can live.
Thankfully, I'm not alone. Kindles were all the rage a few years ago but a lot of people have now gone back to proper traditional books now and I think that balance is healthy.
Mr. Maffew, I've been affected far less than most people by virtue of working from home anyway and being very much an introvert.
But I agree with you. The impact of lockdown on mental health, as well as the economy, is no small thing. The whole point of vaccination is so that we can return to normality. Not a world of masks, social distancing, and being asked "Wo sind deine Papieren, bitte?".
The people threatening him need to be prosecuted. Now.
Agreed. There is a right to free speech, but not a right to threaten or incite actual violence.
I liked the suggestion after the Charlie Hebdo attacks that every paper in the free world should have put the cartoons on their front pages the next day. Every school in the country should be showing cartoons like this. Anyone who believes in freedom should be saying "I am Spartacus" and everyone who incites violence over that should be prosecuted.
Here's a thought experiment and apologies for personalising it. Would you be in favour of your daughters' school showing these cartoons and putting an ad in the local papers to that effect?
People often take the route of least resistance.
Yes. 👍
Although its probably more appropriate for senior schools than primary schools. My daughter's come home a few times recently and told me about Jesus and what she's learnt about Jesus, I've nodded along and smiled. Its Easter and I understand why the school is talking about it, same at Christmas, and I've no intention of telling her that I don't believe in Jesus or putting my own views onto her. Certainly not while we still have the magic of Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny, why not have other myths like Jesus in the mix at her age?
The people threatening him need to be prosecuted. Now.
Agreed. There is a right to free speech, but not a right to threaten or incite actual violence.
I liked the suggestion after the Charlie Hebdo attacks that every paper in the free world should have put the cartoons on their front pages the next day. Every school in the country should be showing cartoons like this. Anyone who believes in freedom should be saying "I am Spartacus" and everyone who incites violence over that should be prosecuted.
Here's a thought experiment and apologies for personalising it. Would you be in favour of your daughters' school showing these cartoons and putting an ad in the local papers to that effect?
People often take the route of least resistance.
Yes. 👍
Although its probably more appropriate for senior schools than primary schools. My daughter's come home a few times recently and told me about Jesus and what she's learnt about Jesus, I've nodded along and smiled. Its Easter and I understand why the school is talking about it, same at Christmas, and I've no intention of telling her that I don't believe in Jesus or putting my own views onto her. Certainly not while we still have the magic of Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny, why not have other myths like Jesus in the mix at her age?
And interesting about Jesus. That I'm sure would be my approach. The Holy Trinity - God, Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny. Oh and not forgetting the Tooth Fairy. Four of them. In which order would you break it to your children...
It does very much feel like there's goal post shifting going on. I've hated lockdown. It's impacted on my mental health, my career progression, every aspect of life in a negative way. My wedding reception was about 15 of us eating takeaway pizza in a park (admittedly that wasn't so bad). I've been relatively lucky in that I at least own my own property and have a secure job.
I would be entirely happy to take my chances with the disease. Obviously I'd rather not catch it, but I'm young, fit and can assess risk for myself. Despite that, I do believe in responsibility to society and accepted restrictions on my basic freedoms to prevent the collapse of the healthcare system and benefit the more vulnerable.
Now every time I see comfortable older people talking about longer term restrictions or health officials saying things like 'social distancing is a low cost measure' it makes my blood boil. I've also found I've started having mild anxiety attacks at some of the pronouncements in the media.
I don't expect any particular sympathy, but I do find the way some people seem to be thinking hugely disturbing. If the government does try to keep social distancing or put in a new lockdown-lite next winter, I'm rapidly going to become a single issue voter.
Well you get my sympathy. I feel similarly. You say that you would be "entirely happy to take my chances with the disease" and I would too.
I do get the feeling that dissent is rising, at least with the intelligent ones who have a scintilla of liberalism within them. Not enough dissent yet though I fear. I find it hugely disturbing too.
"Covid levels are now so low in Britain that the Prime Minister could have proclaimed the second wave over yesterday. Instead, he asked for his Government’s emergency powers to be extended for another six months. Why, if there is no longer an emergency? Sir Keir Starmer didn’t ask."
"at the heart of this is a question of what kind of country we are – and whether liberal Britain became a casualty of the pandemic."
Are people at last going to wake up? The threat to liberal democracy is far more serious than the threat of the virus itself. In my view this was always the case.
It was only 6 months ago that Johnson, when asked why covid rates were higher in the UK than in Germany, said this: "Actually there is an important difference between our country and many other countries around the world, that is that our country is a freedom-loving country"
I don't know. Where I am there have never been any rules against leaving your house, or going to a park to sit on a bench. Nobody has ever been stopped by the police from buying Easter eggs (did that really happen?). It's not illegal to leave the country. The right to demonstrate is guaranteed in the constitution.
Yep this is what many Brits fail to appreciate. A friend in Europe the other day said that on account of an increase in cases, a new lockdown was coming - restaurants would be closing earlier than they had been and the curfew was going to be an hour earlier (10pm IIRC).
"Restaurants will have to close earlier..."
I would bite your hand off for such a lockdown.
Of course it does vary from country to country (and in Germany to a minor extent from state to state), but if someone asked Merkel, or any German politician, "why are case rates higher in Germany than in country X", they would never come up with some jingoistic bollocks about how Germany is freedom-loving unlike other countries. And if they did they would be a complete laughing-stock. But in England, half the country seems to lap up this shit.
The EU picking a fight with AZ was bizarre given we've only imported a million doses from the EU plants total I think - so proportionately our share from their output is less than their own....
Now Pfizer, J&J and Novavax are going to be ultracautious wrt anything EU related.
Heart of stone and stuff.
Pfizer rejected the EU position last night
The EU have done untold damage to their pharmaceutical industries, and many others will be wary of investment in the EU
Have they? Where do you get your inside information?
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
I don't hate the comparison at all. If anything it's worse than you say. Then some MPs were trying to ignore a democratic vote. This time people have voted for this useless shower of authoritarians.
People are obsessing about flags and singing Britons never shall be slaves at the Proms while obediently agreeing to be slaves.
Daily temperature tests indeed.
They can fuck right off.
Vaccines are meant to be our way out of this. Not a tunnel into ever more restrictions and controls.
If any of that were to happen, then I agree entirely they can fuck off. And I would quit the party again, as I quit it the last time we had an authoritarian as party leader.
I simply do not believe it will happen. I might be in denial, but I just don't believe it is possible that will be done.
Restrictions to end 21/6, no ifs no buts. That's my line.
Or what? You will quit the party. Who cares. I quit the party last year and they seem to have managed to put it behind them and are going from strength to strength.
Absolutely, but that's what I can do.
HYUFD likes to take pride in the fact that he has a 100% Tory voting record and I don't, but as far as I'm concerned the Party needs to win my vote not the other way around. Three times in my life I've not voted Conservative: 2001 (Labour with a pinched nose), 2002 or 2003 local elections (Lib Dem) and 2019 European Parliament (Brexit with a very pinched nose). When that's happened the party has changed not long after to improve.
If the Conservatives become authoritarian then I will vote Lib Dem or some other party. That's all I can do.
I mean it is how politics works but I'm not (apropos of my quitting the Cons last year) now expecting to collect my Boris out by September winnings...
Indeed. Though we cancelled each other out last year, you felt it appropriate to quit when Johnson arrived, I felt it appropriate to quit when May did. Fair enough.
The people threatening him need to be prosecuted. Now.
Agreed. There is a right to free speech, but not a right to threaten or incite actual violence.
I liked the suggestion after the Charlie Hebdo attacks that every paper in the free world should have put the cartoons on their front pages the next day. Every school in the country should be showing cartoons like this. Anyone who believes in freedom should be saying "I am Spartacus" and everyone who incites violence over that should be prosecuted.
Here's a thought experiment and apologies for personalising it. Would you be in favour of your daughters' school showing these cartoons and putting an ad in the local papers to that effect?
People often take the route of least resistance.
Yes. 👍
Although its probably more appropriate for senior schools than primary schools. My daughter's come home a few times recently and told me about Jesus and what she's learnt about Jesus, I've nodded along and smiled. Its Easter and I understand why the school is talking about it, same at Christmas, and I've no intention of telling her that I don't believe in Jesus or putting my own views onto her. Certainly not while we still have the magic of Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny, why not have other myths like Jesus in the mix at her age?
I'm happy to accept that Jesus is not the son of god, but suggesting that Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny don't exist is just going far too far.
Mr. JS, it's the same sort of people who think abolishing cash is a smart idea.
I would also like to give the Lib Dems some rare praise for their stance on this.
Stockholm Syndrome is rubbish.
Abolishing cash is a great idea.
It would also be a great victory in the war on drugs.
Simple rule: if you can't choose to live and exist without a smartphone (even if it's less convenient, and a tad more expensive) then you're not really free.
Abolishing cash would be like abolishing books.
Of course you're free, smartphones give you even more liberty.
Lockdown has been a challenge yet thanks to technology I've been able to talk to friends all over the world for nothing.
Would you prefer to contact them via post?
Smartphone's are a personal tracking device, plus they need power and juice to work.
I always want to have an off-the-grid option. And, yes, many friends are touched with a personal letter - we all don't write enough of them.
I am a man of letters.
I'm talking about the friend going through a rough spell in Ireland, our WhatsApp group, as well individually, can give him immediate support in a way a letter cannot.
A smartphone allows me to do things quicker and easier, allowing me more quality time.
I'm not saying smartphones aren't convenient or useful but I don't want them to take over the world and be the only way one can live.
Thankfully, I'm not alone. Kindles were all the rage a few years ago but a lot of people have now gone back to proper traditional books now and I think that balance is healthy.
It used to be a huge pain - taking up to a dozen books on a plane (yes, really - when flying to Hong Kong there is a lot of reading to be done). And on the tube. Kindles were a blessing. Now, I generally prefer books. Some demand to be in book form (The Mirror & The Light, The Testaments, etc).
"Surely there is a tipping point where the people say enough?" - well I've thought that for twelve months. Still waiting. No end in sight. Personally, I think Sunak's largesse is a big factor. Keep paying people for staying at home and spring is coming ...
"Drakeford doubling down on the misery act" - yes, the behavior of devolved parliament leader's has been sickening. Falling over themselves for the "who can remove most liberties" title. Bizarre isn't it. Is this all becoming one giant exercise in virtue-signalling?
I think part of the problem is, oddly, lack of enforcement. This means that a lot of people will say how strongly they support the measures while ignoring the ones that really don't suit them.
This is all well and good, but for those of us that don't like to break the law or whose careers would be threatened by getting done for breaking it the situation is a bit different.
I do think attitudes are changing thankfully. I've seen a lot of people in my circle swinging from being lockdown supporters to outrage at talk of keeping restrictions past 21 June.
Blimey have tuned in to PB this morning to see that everyone has turned into @contrarian.
About time. What many failed to see and are now realising is that red lines can be ignored, and others' scoffed at. Until. Your own red lines are the ones being breached.
If I may be allowed to quote myself:
"People scream on here: "but lockdowns work. Go Government". As if that is the most important aspect to all this legislation.
And before they know it they are faced with some measure or other which breeches their own red lines and then they say "well they can't do that". But they already have. And then they look around frantically for Steve Baker of all people to come and rescue them/us all."
Contrarian has been railing against restrictions at a time when cases and deaths were going through the roof and there was a real danger of hospitals being overwhelmed within weeks. That's a minority view, on here and in the country.
The extension of emergency powers to the autumn, when any sensible analysis suggests they should not, in all probability, be needed makes many of us queasy. I supported the January lockdown. I'm fine with the pretty cautious opening up plan. I want to see some very good reasons why legislation needs extending now. As we've seen before, steps can be taken quickly if needed, we don't need to be agreeing these powers now.
You are proving my point. You think it was justified then but not now. Because your view of freedoms and legislation incorporate and justify taking such action then as though it is the only logical thing to have done. "Everyone agrees..."
But someone else's red line was back then and they thought the actions the government took were beyond what was justified given the circumstances. Were they right or wrong? Are you right or wrong? Is the key metric 10 lives or 10,000 lives? Irrelevant. It is the principle that is important. The government used and is using draconian powers to legislate (away) our freedoms.
Watch again that Tory MP and his pint of milk. Seems bonkers. Actually it is particularly acute and relevant.
I'll leave Contrarian to one side, if I may, as his/her arguments also include a bit of denialism in my view. Sometimes, I do find that Contrarian is plain wrong. Stocky was writing yesterday, arguing that what we've done this time was wrong because we can't do it every time. Stocky finds (I hope I'm interpreting right, apologies if not) that the enforced restriction of liberty is just too much, even though the threat is very real. That's not wrong, it's personal values. I'm on the other side of that debate to Stocky, but I can respect the argument and Stocky is in no way wrong.
As you say, we all have our tipping point. For some, we all need to stay locked down/restricted until we can be sure opening up will not cause any more deaths. For me, that's absurd. We don't lock down for flu every year. We don't set the speed limit to 20mph everywhere. We accept risks for benefits. We accept deaths for freedoms. I think we could probably go a bit quicker than planned, but I accept there are uncertainties and the government has been burned on this before, so I can accept the caution.
I'm not on SAGE, nor an expert in infectious disease, but I have worked with PHE/Dept of Health on projections for noncommunicable diseases. Don't get too concerned about the pessimistic reports. PHE/the government always want the worst case scenarios in addition to various 'realistic' scenarios. They like the certainty of a worst case scenario - as a scientist you're basically telling them there are lots of ifs, buts and maybes in all the other scenarios and it depends on actions and a lot of random, unpredictable factors. But with the worst case scenario you're essentially saying to them, I'm certain, it won't get worse than this. They tend to fixate on that certainty and ignore much of the rest (which can be frustrating!). When the worst case scenarios are no longer that troubling, that's when the politicians in charge of this will relax.
The public pessimism at the moment, I think, is designed to get people to stick with the restrictions as they're lifted under the current plan. We're not yet far enough with vaccinations to stop another wave of cases, at least. The unvaccinated are those more likely to spread and more likely to be infected. I expect the numbers will show that we could still get hospitals into trouble if the unvaccinated population goes crazy. We do need people to keep following restrictions now (although, as suggested yesterday by Andy Cooke, I think, it would be nice to loosen up earlier on outside stuff which is low risk). Come the summer, unless the unexpected happens, the worst case scenarios will no longer be scary and there's no reason we can't all crack on.
The people threatening him need to be prosecuted. Now.
Agreed. There is a right to free speech, but not a right to threaten or incite actual violence.
I liked the suggestion after the Charlie Hebdo attacks that every paper in the free world should have put the cartoons on their front pages the next day. Every school in the country should be showing cartoons like this. Anyone who believes in freedom should be saying "I am Spartacus" and everyone who incites violence over that should be prosecuted.
Here's a thought experiment and apologies for personalising it. Would you be in favour of your daughters' school showing these cartoons and putting an ad in the local papers to that effect?
People often take the route of least resistance.
Yes. 👍
Although its probably more appropriate for senior schools than primary schools. My daughter's come home a few times recently and told me about Jesus and what she's learnt about Jesus, I've nodded along and smiled. Its Easter and I understand why the school is talking about it, same at Christmas, and I've no intention of telling her that I don't believe in Jesus or putting my own views onto her. Certainly not while we still have the magic of Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny, why not have other myths like Jesus in the mix at her age?
And interesting about Jesus. That I'm sure would be my approach. The Holy Trinity - God, Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny. Oh and not forgetting the Tooth Fairy. Four of them. In which order would you break it to your children...
Oh yes, she's very keen on the Tooth Fairy, having started to lose her baby teeth in the past year. Her younger sister keeps copying and insisting she has a wobbly tooth so she can have the tooth fairy visit, its quite cute. Then again she also says that when she grows up she wants to be a butterfly.
I don't intend to break it to them. Let her find out at her own pace. I think its an important part of growing up and discovering things for yourselves, sadly some people don't put the myths of childhood behind them and cling onto Sky Fairies then insist that others believe in their Sky Fairy's commandments.
The people threatening him need to be prosecuted. Now.
Agreed. There is a right to free speech, but not a right to threaten or incite actual violence.
I liked the suggestion after the Charlie Hebdo attacks that every paper in the free world should have put the cartoons on their front pages the next day. Every school in the country should be showing cartoons like this. Anyone who believes in freedom should be saying "I am Spartacus" and everyone who incites violence over that should be prosecuted.
People seem genuinely afraid of upsetting people, because that's all it is, upset. It makes sense people of a religion dont like it when they think others insult or transgress their religion.
But they need to get the fuck over it and the rest of us need to not walk on eggshells about it.
Sure, people condemn death threats and the like, but frankly, we should feel much free to say even the complaints are unreasonable.
I'm not a Christian or a Muslim, and I'm not a dick and going to go out of my way to insult someones faith, but if I want to do so, or simply to talk about iconography or show info around a religion even against it's own precepts, damn right I can and more than that, anyone saying I cant because of their religion should be treated as unreasonable.
The EU picking a fight with AZ was bizarre given we've only imported a million doses from the EU plants total I think - so proportionately our share from their output is less than their own....
Now Pfizer, J&J and Novavax are going to be ultracautious wrt anything EU related.
Heart of stone and stuff.
Pfizer rejected the EU position last night
The EU have done untold damage to their pharmaceutical industries, and many others will be wary of investment in the EU
Have they? Where do you get your inside information?
Pfizer publicly said that the EU plans were unhelpful.
"Covid levels are now so low in Britain that the Prime Minister could have proclaimed the second wave over yesterday. Instead, he asked for his Government’s emergency powers to be extended for another six months. Why, if there is no longer an emergency? Sir Keir Starmer didn’t ask."
"at the heart of this is a question of what kind of country we are – and whether liberal Britain became a casualty of the pandemic."
Are people at last going to wake up? The threat to liberal democracy is far more serious than the threat of the virus itself. In my view this was always the case.
It was only 6 months ago that Johnson, when asked why covid rates were higher in the UK than in Germany, said this: "Actually there is an important difference between our country and many other countries around the world, that is that our country is a freedom-loving country"
I don't know. Where I am there have never been any rules against leaving your house, or going to a park to sit on a bench. Nobody has ever been stopped by the police from buying Easter eggs (did that really happen?). It's not illegal to leave the country. The right to demonstrate is guaranteed in the constitution.
Yep this is what many Brits fail to appreciate. A friend in Europe the other day said that on account of an increase in cases, a new lockdown was coming - restaurants would be closing earlier than they had been and the curfew was going to be an hour earlier (10pm IIRC).
"Restaurants will have to close earlier..."
I would bite your hand off for such a lockdown.
Of course it does vary from country to country (and in Germany to a minor extent from state to state), but if someone asked Merkel, or any German politician, "why are case rates higher in Germany than in country X", they would never come up with some jingoistic bollocks about how Germany is freedom-loving unlike other countries. And if they did they would be a complete laughing-stock. But in England, half the country seems to lap up this shit.
My experience of Germany is that there is a silent understanding that the place is just run better than anywhere else but it is rather déclassé to mention it. I remember a timid attempt to defend the NHS at a dinner party in Munich once and there was an embarrassed titter round the table as if I had just outed myself as a flat-earther
"Covid levels are now so low in Britain that the Prime Minister could have proclaimed the second wave over yesterday. Instead, he asked for his Government’s emergency powers to be extended for another six months. Why, if there is no longer an emergency? Sir Keir Starmer didn’t ask."
"at the heart of this is a question of what kind of country we are – and whether liberal Britain became a casualty of the pandemic."
Are people at last going to wake up? The threat to liberal democracy is far more serious than the threat of the virus itself. In my view this was always the case.
It was only 6 months ago that Johnson, when asked why covid rates were higher in the UK than in Germany, said this: "Actually there is an important difference between our country and many other countries around the world, that is that our country is a freedom-loving country"
I don't know. Where I am there have never been any rules against leaving your house, or going to a park to sit on a bench. Nobody has ever been stopped by the police from buying Easter eggs (did that really happen?). It's not illegal to leave the country. The right to demonstrate is guaranteed in the constitution.
"Surely there is a tipping point where the people say enough?" - well I've thought that for twelve months. Still waiting. No end in sight. Personally, I think Sunak's largesse is a big factor. Keep paying people for staying at home and spring is coming ...
"Drakeford doubling down on the misery act" - yes, the behavior of devolved parliament leader's has been sickening. Falling over themselves for the "who can remove most liberties" title. Bizarre isn't it. Is this all becoming one giant exercise in virtue-signalling?
I think part of the problem is, oddly, lack of enforcement. This means that a lot of people will say how strongly they support the measures while ignoring the ones that really don't suit them.
This is all well and good, but for those of us that don't like to break the law or whose careers would be threatened by getting done for breaking it the situation is a bit different.
I do think attitudes are changing thankfully. I've seen a lot of people in my circle swinging from being lockdown supporters to outrage at talk of keeping restrictions past 21 June.
What do they say - the definition of a bubble is middle class people seeing other middle class people whenever they feel like it.
The people threatening him need to be prosecuted. Now.
Agreed. There is a right to free speech, but not a right to threaten or incite actual violence.
I liked the suggestion after the Charlie Hebdo attacks that every paper in the free world should have put the cartoons on their front pages the next day. Every school in the country should be showing cartoons like this. Anyone who believes in freedom should be saying "I am Spartacus" and everyone who incites violence over that should be prosecuted.
Here's a thought experiment and apologies for personalising it. Would you be in favour of your daughters' school showing these cartoons and putting an ad in the local papers to that effect?
People often take the route of least resistance.
Yes. 👍
Although its probably more appropriate for senior schools than primary schools. My daughter's come home a few times recently and told me about Jesus and what she's learnt about Jesus, I've nodded along and smiled. Its Easter and I understand why the school is talking about it, same at Christmas, and I've no intention of telling her that I don't believe in Jesus or putting my own views onto her. Certainly not while we still have the magic of Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny, why not have other myths like Jesus in the mix at her age?
For all that I am a staunch atheist I am quite content with this approach as well. I see nothing wrong in providing children with that sort of psychological security and a bit of myth and magic. They will wean off it themselves in their teens anyway as long as the influence does not persist. It is the route both I and my sister took and I am very relaxed about it.
The people threatening him need to be prosecuted. Now.
Agreed. There is a right to free speech, but not a right to threaten or incite actual violence.
I liked the suggestion after the Charlie Hebdo attacks that every paper in the free world should have put the cartoons on their front pages the next day. Every school in the country should be showing cartoons like this. Anyone who believes in freedom should be saying "I am Spartacus" and everyone who incites violence over that should be prosecuted.
People seem genuinely afraid of upsetting people, because that's all it is, upset. It makes sense people of a religion dont like it when they think others insult or transgress their religion.
But they need to get the fuck over it and the rest of us need to not walk on eggshells about it.
Sure, people condemn death threats and the like, but frankly, we should feel much free to say even the complaints are unreasonable.
I'm not a Christian or a Muslim, and I'm not a dick and going to go out of my way to insult someones faith, but if I want to do so, or simply to talk about iconography or show info around a religion even against it's own precepts, damn right I can and more than that, anyone saying I cant because of their religion should be treated as unreasonable.
So it upsets them, so what? They need to grow up.
Some people seem to think that being offended should be a crime. It should not.
Being offensive is a right. If you can't be offensive, there's no free speech.
The Democrats didn't manage to regain a single State legislature in 2020 leaving the Republicans the dominant force in State level politics. This failure, in a year where they achieved a record number of people voting for President, will carry a cost in districting (or gerrymandering) and in the sort of nonsense that we see referred to in the header. The decisions of SCOTUS have also gutted Federal legislation which sought to encourage voting and made challenges to State laws more difficult. As the Court now has a significant built in Republican majority this trend is unlikely to stop any time soon.
None of this makes what the Republicans are doing right of course but the Democrats really need to take a hard look at themselves and work out why they are so unpopular in large parts of the US. Its not an exercise that the likes of AOC and her city based group of ultra liberals will find particularly pleasant.
But, if the Democrats are really so very unpopular the Republicans wouldn't need to pass all these measures.
The Democrats probably need to pass a new Voting Rights Act to counter some of what Republicans are doing, while they have majorities in Congress.
The Democrats won the Presidency because they were up against a dangerous idiot. But they lost seats in the House, they missed out in their opportunity to take control of the Senate and, as I said, they didn't win any State legislatures. They are popular on the coastal areas but but in large parts of America they are not.
Given the highly deficient American Constitution it is far from clear that a new Voting Rights Act will work. It is all too likely that the SC would rule that this is an unwarranted interference in State laws and strike it down.
The real challenge for the Dems is going to come in the off year elections where the numbers that persevere in a Presidential year are reduced. I would not be too surprised to see them lose the House in 2022.
I agree, I expect the GOP to retake the House in 2022, voters voted for Biden, a moderate, purely to beat Trump, they were not voting for woke USA as some of the more exuberant Democrats may think.
In terms of the voter suppression in the thread header it can happen as Georgia has full GOP control of the state legislature and also has a GOP governor.
However Georgia was a bonus for Biden at least in 2020, the Democrats would still have won the White House without it, the key swing states were Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania where the GOP holds the state legislature but the Democrats have the governor
People blithely talking as if this is "politics as usual" in America and that their very democracy isn't fundamentally at stake. If the Republicans retake the House and Senate in 2022 then it isn't massively far-fetched i'm afraid to say that that could be it. The GOP have set the baseline for showing a willingness (en masse - the vast majority of the House) to overturn a Presidential election on the basis of no evidence whatsoever. That means that if they actually get the power to do this then they are prepared to follow through. Why would they need any more evidence next time than they did this time?
This isn't politics as usual. The hope is that enough, usually Republican, but rational, voters realise that. And that Trumpism is wiped out. Despite all the voter suppression measures being put in. Hopefully they backfire. By elevating the importance of the most motivated voters. Because these measures may harm a lot of Republican voters as well.
TBH I don't think the public is in favour of authoritarian policies, they are pro not catching/dying from Covid-19.
I think that is exactly the point and if you think Boris is bad compare him with Sturgeon and now Drakeford who is telling us in Wales this will continue into 2022
The difference between Boris and the other two is that the other want a zero covid response before lifting freedoms and of course they both use New Zealand as their inspiration
They are wrong but if the 4 administrations all follow a different path out of this chaos will ensue
Posters must remember this is just not about England but Scotland Wales and NI as well
"Surely there is a tipping point where the people say enough?" - well I've thought that for twelve months. Still waiting. No end in sight. Personally, I think Sunak's largesse is a big factor. Keep paying people for staying at home and spring is coming ...
"Drakeford doubling down on the misery act" - yes, the behavior of devolved parliament leader's has been sickening. Falling over themselves for the "who can remove most liberties" title. Bizarre isn't it. Is this all becoming one giant exercise in virtue-signalling?
I think part of the problem is, oddly, lack of enforcement. This means that a lot of people will say how strongly they support the measures while ignoring the ones that really don't suit them.
This is all well and good, but for those of us that don't like to break the law or whose careers would be threatened by getting done for breaking it the situation is a bit different.
I do think attitudes are changing thankfully. I've seen a lot of people in my circle swinging from being lockdown supporters to outrage at talk of keeping restrictions past 21 June.
That's good to hear.
I'm hoping that the government, in tandem with the removal of legal restrictions on 21 June, issue guidance for businesses etc to remove screens and "must wear" mask signs, etc. Just guidance though.
TBH I don't think the public is in favour of authoritarian policies, they are pro not catching/dying from Covid-19.
I think that is exactly the point and if you think Boris is bad compare him with Sturgeon and now Drakeford who is telling us in Wales this will continue into 2022
The difference between Boris and the other two is that the other want a zero covid response before lifting freedoms and of course they both use New Zealand as their inspiration
They are wrong but if the 4 administrations all follow a different path out of this chaos will ensue
Posters must remember this is just not about England but Scotland Wales and NI as well
Even New Zealand is preparing the population to understand that Zero COVID is not viable long term. Because no one actually believes you can eradicate the virus completely it is a convenient flag of convenience for anyone who believes that a government’s response is too lax.
TBH I don't think the public is in favour of authoritarian policies, they are pro not catching/dying from Covid-19.
And yet the second wave still happened. I'm convinced that if asked, my mum would say all the right things. But when it comes to doing everything possible to stop the spread of COVID...
Blimey have tuned in to PB this morning to see that everyone has turned into @contrarian.
About time. What many failed to see and are now realising is that red lines can be ignored, and others' scoffed at. Until. Your own red lines are the ones being breached.
If I may be allowed to quote myself:
"People scream on here: "but lockdowns work. Go Government". As if that is the most important aspect to all this legislation.
And before they know it they are faced with some measure or other which breeches their own red lines and then they say "well they can't do that". But they already have. And then they look around frantically for Steve Baker of all people to come and rescue them/us all."
Contrarian has been railing against restrictions at a time when cases and deaths were going through the roof and there was a real danger of hospitals being overwhelmed within weeks. That's a minority view, on here and in the country.
The extension of emergency powers to the autumn, when any sensible analysis suggests they should not, in all probability, be needed makes many of us queasy. I supported the January lockdown. I'm fine with the pretty cautious opening up plan. I want to see some very good reasons why legislation needs extending now. As we've seen before, steps can be taken quickly if needed, we don't need to be agreeing these powers now.
You are proving my point. You think it was justified then but not now. Because your view of freedoms and legislation incorporate and justify taking such action then as though it is the only logical thing to have done. "Everyone agrees..."
But someone else's red line was back then and they thought the actions the government took were beyond what was justified given the circumstances. Were they right or wrong? Are you right or wrong? Is the key metric 10 lives or 10,000 lives? Irrelevant. It is the principle that is important. The government used and is using draconian powers to legislate (away) our freedoms.
Watch again that Tory MP and his pint of milk. Seems bonkers. Actually it is particularly acute and relevant.
I'll leave Contrarian to one side, if I may, as his/her arguments also include a bit of denialism in my view. Sometimes, I do find that Contrarian is plain wrong. Stocky was writing yesterday, arguing that what we've done this time was wrong because we can't do it every time. Stocky finds (I hope I'm interpreting right, apologies if not) that the enforced restriction of liberty is just too much, even though the threat is very real. That's not wrong, it's personal values. I'm on the other side of that debate to Stocky, but I can respect the argument and Stocky is in no way wrong.
As you say, we all have our tipping point. For some, we all need to stay locked down/restricted until we can be sure opening up will not cause any more deaths. For me, that's absurd. We don't lock down for flu every year. We don't set the speed limit to 20mph everywhere. We accept risks for benefits. We accept deaths for freedoms. I think we could probably go a bit quicker than planned, but I accept there are uncertainties and the government has been burned on this before, so I can accept the caution.
I'm not on SAGE, nor an expert in infectious disease, but I have worked with PHE/Dept of Health on projections for noncommunicable diseases. Don't get too concerned about the pessimistic reports. PHE/the government always want the worst case scenarios in addition to various 'realistic' scenarios. They like the certainty of a worst case scenario - as a scientist you're basically telling them there are lots of ifs, buts and maybes in all the other scenarios and it depends on actions and a lot of random, unpredictable factors. But with the worst case scenario you're essentially saying to them, I'm certain, it won't get worse than this. They tend to fixate on that certainty and ignore much of the rest (which can be frustrating!). When the worst case scenarios are no longer that troubling, that's when the politicians in charge of this will relax.
The public pessimism at the moment, I think, is designed to get people to stick with the restrictions as they're lifted under the current plan. We're not yet far enough with vaccinations to stop another wave of cases, at least. The unvaccinated are those more likely to spread and more likely to be infected. I expect the numbers will show that we could still get hospitals into trouble if the unvaccinated population goes crazy. We do need people to keep following restrictions now (although, as suggested yesterday by Andy Cooke, I think, it would be nice to loosen up earlier on outside stuff which is low risk). Come the summer, unless the unexpected happens, the worst case scenarios will no longer be scary and there's no reason we can't all crack on.
Yes. If we unlocked completely now, then we would see a rapid rise in cases. There are enough people, unvaccinated, in the age groups vulnerable to hospitalisation, for that to cause a serious problem.
Which is why concentrating on getting all the over 50s done to a high level (90%+) is a sensible goal.
The question beyond that, is what will be done at the end of the vaccination program?
Some 20% of the population are not adults - and the vaccinations, while effective, are not 100%. It is quite possible that when all restrictions are relaxed, that the effective R will go above 1. So people will get sick and a number will die. What should the response to that be?
The EU picking a fight with AZ was bizarre given we've only imported a million doses from the EU plants total I think - so proportionately our share from their output is less than their own....
Now Pfizer, J&J and Novavax are going to be ultracautious wrt anything EU related.
Heart of stone and stuff.
Pfizer rejected the EU position last night
The EU have done untold damage to their pharmaceutical industries, and many others will be wary of investment in the EU
Have they? Where do you get your inside information?
Pfizer publicly said that the EU plans were unhelpful.
Have you any idea of the scale of these companies? They are vast and spread all over the world. I've shot for various brands in various countries over the years and you don't even know where the head office of the brand is.
It does very much feel like there's goal post shifting going on. I've hated lockdown. It's impacted on my mental health, my career progression, every aspect of life in a negative way. My wedding reception was about 15 of us eating takeaway pizza in a park (admittedly that wasn't so bad). I've been relatively lucky in that I at least own my own property and have a secure job.
I would be entirely happy to take my chances with the disease. Obviously I'd rather not catch it, but I'm young, fit and can assess risk for myself. Despite that, I do believe in responsibility to society and accepted restrictions on my basic freedoms to prevent the collapse of the healthcare system and benefit the more vulnerable.
Now every time I see comfortable older people talking about longer term restrictions or health officials saying things like 'social distancing is a low cost measure' it makes my blood boil. I've also found I've started having mild anxiety attacks at some of the pronouncements in the media.
I don't expect any particular sympathy, but I do find the way some people seem to be thinking hugely disturbing. If the government does try to keep social distancing or put in a new lockdown-lite next winter, I'm rapidly going to become a single issue voter.
Totally agree with you mate, the way the older generation fail to appreciate the sacrifices of young people is a constant stream of shite they continue to send our way. The idea that social distancing is a "low cost" measure is ridiculous. It will eventually lead to the extinction of the human race as how the hell is any single person supposed to meet anyone without breaking the idiotic social distancing rules.
You see it here all the time with long term measures proposed by older posters presented as this non-issue that everyone should simply accept for the greater good. Well fuck that and if it turns out that Nige is the only one opposing it then I'll have to vote for Nige.
"Surely there is a tipping point where the people say enough?" - well I've thought that for twelve months. Still waiting. No end in sight. Personally, I think Sunak's largesse is a big factor. Keep paying people for staying at home and spring is coming ...
"Drakeford doubling down on the misery act" - yes, the behavior of devolved parliament leader's has been sickening. Falling over themselves for the "who can remove most liberties" title. Bizarre isn't it. Is this all becoming one giant exercise in virtue-signalling?
I think part of the problem is, oddly, lack of enforcement. This means that a lot of people will say how strongly they support the measures while ignoring the ones that really don't suit them.
This is all well and good, but for those of us that don't like to break the law or whose careers would be threatened by getting done for breaking it the situation is a bit different.
I do think attitudes are changing thankfully. I've seen a lot of people in my circle swinging from being lockdown supporters to outrage at talk of keeping restrictions past 21 June.
I think that's a good point. Support in generality really.
"Surely there is a tipping point where the people say enough?" - well I've thought that for twelve months. Still waiting. No end in sight. Personally, I think Sunak's largesse is a big factor. Keep paying people for staying at home and spring is coming ...
"Drakeford doubling down on the misery act" - yes, the behavior of devolved parliament leader's has been sickening. Falling over themselves for the "who can remove most liberties" title. Bizarre isn't it. Is this all becoming one giant exercise in virtue-signalling?
I think part of the problem is, oddly, lack of enforcement. This means that a lot of people will say how strongly they support the measures while ignoring the ones that really don't suit them.
This is all well and good, but for those of us that don't like to break the law or whose careers would be threatened by getting done for breaking it the situation is a bit different.
I do think attitudes are changing thankfully. I've seen a lot of people in my circle swinging from being lockdown supporters to outrage at talk of keeping restrictions past 21 June.
That's good to hear.
I'm hoping that the government, in tandem with the removal of legal restrictions on 21 June, issue guidance for businesses etc to remove screens and "must wear" mask signs, etc. Just guidance though.
My preferred watering hole lost 50% of it's seating capacity due to screens. As soon as they think enough of their customer base will put up with it then I expect they'll be gone. Their long term prosperity will demand it.
The people threatening him need to be prosecuted. Now.
Agreed. There is a right to free speech, but not a right to threaten or incite actual violence.
I liked the suggestion after the Charlie Hebdo attacks that every paper in the free world should have put the cartoons on their front pages the next day. Every school in the country should be showing cartoons like this. Anyone who believes in freedom should be saying "I am Spartacus" and everyone who incites violence over that should be prosecuted.
Here's a thought experiment and apologies for personalising it. Would you be in favour of your daughters' school showing these cartoons and putting an ad in the local papers to that effect?
People often take the route of least resistance.
Yes. 👍
Although its probably more appropriate for senior schools than primary schools. My daughter's come home a few times recently and told me about Jesus and what she's learnt about Jesus, I've nodded along and smiled. Its Easter and I understand why the school is talking about it, same at Christmas, and I've no intention of telling her that I don't believe in Jesus or putting my own views onto her. Certainly not while we still have the magic of Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny, why not have other myths like Jesus in the mix at her age?
I'm happy to accept that Jesus is not the son of god, but suggesting that Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny don't exist is just going far too far.
TBH I don't think the public is in favour of authoritarian policies, they are pro not catching/dying from Covid-19.
I think that is exactly the point and if you think Boris is bad compare him with Sturgeon and now Drakeford who is telling us in Wales this will continue into 2022
The difference between Boris and the other two is that the other want a zero covid response before lifting freedoms and of course they both use New Zealand as their inspiration
They are wrong but if the 4 administrations all follow a different path out of this chaos will ensue
Posters must remember this is just not about England but Scotland Wales and NI as well
But you consistently misrepresent or don't understand the Welsh government's position.
Drakeford's comments are similar to what JVT and Hancock have said. Assuming no vaccine resistant variants there'll be still be some minor peripheral changes to what we were used pre Covid-19.
Blimey have tuned in to PB this morning to see that everyone has turned into @contrarian.
About time. What many failed to see and are now realising is that red lines can be ignored, and others' scoffed at. Until. Your own red lines are the ones being breached.
If I may be allowed to quote myself:
"People scream on here: "but lockdowns work. Go Government". As if that is the most important aspect to all this legislation.
And before they know it they are faced with some measure or other which breeches their own red lines and then they say "well they can't do that". But they already have. And then they look around frantically for Steve Baker of all people to come and rescue them/us all."
Contrarian has been railing against restrictions at a time when cases and deaths were going through the roof and there was a real danger of hospitals being overwhelmed within weeks. That's a minority view, on here and in the country.
The extension of emergency powers to the autumn, when any sensible analysis suggests they should not, in all probability, be needed makes many of us queasy. I supported the January lockdown. I'm fine with the pretty cautious opening up plan. I want to see some very good reasons why legislation needs extending now. As we've seen before, steps can be taken quickly if needed, we don't need to be agreeing these powers now.
You are proving my point. You think it was justified then but not now. Because your view of freedoms and legislation incorporate and justify taking such action then as though it is the only logical thing to have done. "Everyone agrees..."
But someone else's red line was back then and they thought the actions the government took were beyond what was justified given the circumstances. Were they right or wrong? Are you right or wrong? Is the key metric 10 lives or 10,000 lives? Irrelevant. It is the principle that is important. The government used and is using draconian powers to legislate (away) our freedoms.
Watch again that Tory MP and his pint of milk. Seems bonkers. Actually it is particularly acute and relevant.
I'll leave Contrarian to one side, if I may, as his/her arguments also include a bit of denialism in my view. Sometimes, I do find that Contrarian is plain wrong. Stocky was writing yesterday, arguing that what we've done this time was wrong because we can't do it every time. Stocky finds (I hope I'm interpreting right, apologies if not) that the enforced restriction of liberty is just too much, even though the threat is very real. That's not wrong, it's personal values. I'm on the other side of that debate to Stocky, but I can respect the argument and Stocky is in no way wrong.
As you say, we all have our tipping point. For some, we all need to stay locked down/restricted until we can be sure opening up will not cause any more deaths. For me, that's absurd. We don't lock down for flu every year. We don't set the speed limit to 20mph everywhere. We accept risks for benefits. We accept deaths for freedoms. I think we could probably go a bit quicker than planned, but I accept there are uncertainties and the government has been burned on this before, so I can accept the caution.
I'm not on SAGE, nor an expert in infectious disease, but I have worked with PHE/Dept of Health on projections for noncommunicable diseases. Don't get too concerned about the pessimistic reports. PHE/the government always want the worst case scenarios in addition to various 'realistic' scenarios. They like the certainty of a worst case scenario - as a scientist you're basically telling them there are lots of ifs, buts and maybes in all the other scenarios and it depends on actions and a lot of random, unpredictable factors. But with the worst case scenario you're essentially saying to them, I'm certain, it won't get worse than this. They tend to fixate on that certainty and ignore much of the rest (which can be frustrating!). When the worst case scenarios are no longer that troubling, that's when the politicians in charge of this will relax.
The public pessimism at the moment, I think, is designed to get people to stick with the restrictions as they're lifted under the current plan. We're not yet far enough with vaccinations to stop another wave of cases, at least. The unvaccinated are those more likely to spread and more likely to be infected. I expect the numbers will show that we could still get hospitals into trouble if the unvaccinated population goes crazy. We do need people to keep following restrictions now (although, as suggested yesterday by Andy Cooke, I think, it would be nice to loosen up earlier on outside stuff which is low risk). Come the summer, unless the unexpected happens, the worst case scenarios will no longer be scary and there's no reason we can't all crack on.
Thanks for that and little I disagree with. I said right from the beginning that if you had the CMO, CSO and PM at a podium from 10 Downing St at 5pm opining about mountaineering, pretty soon mountaineering would be banned (and I accept that killing yourself mountaineering is not communicable, unless you happen to fall on someone...)
As has been said (not least on here, often) all this should be executed hand in hand with behavioural psychologists. And perhaps the current rhetoric about measures beyond June are designed to keep people to the current timetable and enthuse them when the milestones are met.
But at the same time, these are real laws that are being introduced. With real effects (or why introduce them?). And we now have a lot of them, if you listen to eg @Cyclefree not always necessary. "Fear is the foundation of most governments", right? And we now have a government which has a fearful populace and it is introducing ever more measures which are imo taking advantage of that fear.
And many people on here are only now seeing that this might be what is happening.
Blimey have tuned in to PB this morning to see that everyone has turned into @contrarian.
About time. What many failed to see and are now realising is that red lines can be ignored, and others' scoffed at. Until. Your own red lines are the ones being breached.
If I may be allowed to quote myself:
"People scream on here: "but lockdowns work. Go Government". As if that is the most important aspect to all this legislation.
And before they know it they are faced with some measure or other which breeches their own red lines and then they say "well they can't do that". But they already have. And then they look around frantically for Steve Baker of all people to come and rescue them/us all."
Contrarian has been railing against restrictions at a time when cases and deaths were going through the roof and there was a real danger of hospitals being overwhelmed within weeks. That's a minority view, on here and in the country.
The extension of emergency powers to the autumn, when any sensible analysis suggests they should not, in all probability, be needed makes many of us queasy. I supported the January lockdown. I'm fine with the pretty cautious opening up plan. I want to see some very good reasons why legislation needs extending now. As we've seen before, steps can be taken quickly if needed, we don't need to be agreeing these powers now.
You are proving my point. You think it was justified then but not now. Because your view of freedoms and legislation incorporate and justify taking such action then as though it is the only logical thing to have done. "Everyone agrees..."
But someone else's red line was back then and they thought the actions the government took were beyond what was justified given the circumstances. Were they right or wrong? Are you right or wrong? Is the key metric 10 lives or 10,000 lives? Irrelevant. It is the principle that is important. The government used and is using draconian powers to legislate (away) our freedoms.
Watch again that Tory MP and his pint of milk. Seems bonkers. Actually it is particularly acute and relevant.
I'll leave Contrarian to one side, if I may, as his/her arguments also include a bit of denialism in my view. Sometimes, I do find that Contrarian is plain wrong. Stocky was writing yesterday, arguing that what we've done this time was wrong because we can't do it every time. Stocky finds (I hope I'm interpreting right, apologies if not) that the enforced restriction of liberty is just too much, even though the threat is very real. That's not wrong, it's personal values. I'm on the other side of that debate to Stocky, but I can respect the argument and Stocky is in no way wrong.
As you say, we all have our tipping point. For some, we all need to stay locked down/restricted until we can be sure opening up will not cause any more deaths. For me, that's absurd. We don't lock down for flu every year. We don't set the speed limit to 20mph everywhere. We accept risks for benefits. We accept deaths for freedoms. I think we could probably go a bit quicker than planned, but I accept there are uncertainties and the government has been burned on this before, so I can accept the caution.
I'm not on SAGE, nor an expert in infectious disease, but I have worked with PHE/Dept of Health on projections for noncommunicable diseases. Don't get too concerned about the pessimistic reports. PHE/the government always want the worst case scenarios in addition to various 'realistic' scenarios. They like the certainty of a worst case scenario - as a scientist you're basically telling them there are lots of ifs, buts and maybes in all the other scenarios and it depends on actions and a lot of random, unpredictable factors. But with the worst case scenario you're essentially saying to them, I'm certain, it won't get worse than this. They tend to fixate on that certainty and ignore much of the rest (which can be frustrating!). When the worst case scenarios are no longer that troubling, that's when the politicians in charge of this will relax.
The public pessimism at the moment, I think, is designed to get people to stick with the restrictions as they're lifted under the current plan. We're not yet far enough with vaccinations to stop another wave of cases, at least. The unvaccinated are those more likely to spread and more likely to be infected. I expect the numbers will show that we could still get hospitals into trouble if the unvaccinated population goes crazy. We do need people to keep following restrictions now (although, as suggested yesterday by Andy Cooke, I think, it would be nice to loosen up earlier on outside stuff which is low risk). Come the summer, unless the unexpected happens, the worst case scenarios will no longer be scary and there's no reason we can't all crack on.
Yes. If we unlocked completely now, then we would see a rapid rise in cases. There are enough people, unvaccinated, in the age groups vulnerable to hospitalisation, for that to cause a serious problem.
Which is why concentrating on getting all the over 50s done to a high level (90%+) is a sensible goal.
The question beyond that, is what will be done at the end of the vaccination program?
Some 20% of the population are not adults - and the vaccinations, while effective, are not 100%. It is quite possible that when all restrictions are relaxed, that the effective R will go above 1. So people will get sick and a number will die. What should the response to that be?
People die. You live with it.
Enough are already vaccinated that there will not be a rapid rise in hospitalisations. We should be unlocking already. A higher share of the population is vaccinated today in the UK than were in Israel when lockdown ended.
A much higher share of the population was vaccinated three weeks ago, than were in Israel when lockdown ended.
TBH I don't think the public is in favour of authoritarian policies, they are pro not catching/dying from Covid-19.
And yet the second wave still happened. I'm convinced that if asked, my mum would say all the right things. But when it comes to doing everything possible to stop the spread of COVID...
A second wave was baked into every model I saw from last Spring.
The EU picking a fight with AZ was bizarre given we've only imported a million doses from the EU plants total I think - so proportionately our share from their output is less than their own....
Now Pfizer, J&J and Novavax are going to be ultracautious wrt anything EU related.
Heart of stone and stuff.
Pfizer rejected the EU position last night
The EU have done untold damage to their pharmaceutical industries, and many others will be wary of investment in the EU
Have they? Where do you get your inside information?
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
Personally, I think the Government would have been far better advised to just seek an extension of the rules for 3 months (which would take us to 25th June, beyond big bang date) and then review what (if anything) is needed beyond then.
This smacks me as someone in the Cabinet listening uncritically to some civil service advice on what would be most bureaucratically convenient, and not thinking about the politics - which is their job.
Michael Howard said that one of the important jobs that the Home Secretary had was this -
After a major incident, such as a terrorist attack, a huge pile of policies would be pushed onto the Home Sec's desk. Ranging from the demented to the hard core fascist. Indefinite detention without trial at the whim of the Home Sec. was a favourite, apparently.
According to M. Howard, the role of home secretary was to tip the lot in the bin.
Wasn't he in favour of ID cards? Some liberal him.
The problem with ID cards in the UK, as Howard himself pointed out, is not the ID card.
It is the desire by some in government to link all records to them. And make all of those records accessible to all "customers" of the system. Such as the ability of a council employee to see your medical records, under the last attempt at such a system, when investigating misuse of the recycling bins......
I have previously, and do now live in a country with ID cards.
No matter what the arguments are before it’s introduced, once introduced it quickly becomes compulsory for absolutely everything.
The EU picking a fight with AZ was bizarre given we've only imported a million doses from the EU plants total I think - so proportionately our share from their output is less than their own....
Now Pfizer, J&J and Novavax are going to be ultracautious wrt anything EU related.
Heart of stone and stuff.
Pfizer rejected the EU position last night
The EU have done untold damage to their pharmaceutical industries, and many others will be wary of investment in the EU
Have they? Where do you get your inside information?
Pfizer publicly said that the EU plans were unhelpful.
Have you any idea of the scale of these companies? They are vast and spread all over the world. I've shot for various brands in various countries over the years and you don't even know where the head office of the brand is.
Have you any idea how easy that makes it for them to withdraw from a region and transfer to somewhere else? The EU represents less then 7% of the world's population. They need to realise they really are not that important.
Mr. JS, it's the same sort of people who think abolishing cash is a smart idea.
I would also like to give the Lib Dems some rare praise for their stance on this.
Stockholm Syndrome is rubbish.
Abolishing cash is a great idea.
It would also be a great victory in the war on drugs.
Simple rule: if you can't choose to live and exist without a smartphone (even if it's less convenient, and a tad more expensive) then you're not really free.
Abolishing cash would be like abolishing books.
Of course you're free, smartphones give you even more liberty.
Lockdown has been a challenge yet thanks to technology I've been able to talk to friends all over the world for nothing.
Would you prefer to contact them via post?
Smartphone's are a personal tracking device, plus they need power and juice to work.
I always want to have an off-the-grid option. And, yes, many friends are touched with a personal letter - we all don't write enough of them.
There are plenty of options to talk to people all over the world in real time that don't require a smartphone
The EU picking a fight with AZ was bizarre given we've only imported a million doses from the EU plants total I think - so proportionately our share from their output is less than their own....
Now Pfizer, J&J and Novavax are going to be ultracautious wrt anything EU related.
Heart of stone and stuff.
Pfizer rejected the EU position last night
The EU have done untold damage to their pharmaceutical industries, and many others will be wary of investment in the EU
Have they? Where do you get your inside information?
Pfizer publicly said that the EU plans were unhelpful.
Have you any idea of the scale of these companies? They are vast and spread all over the world. I've shot for various brands in various countries over the years and you don't even know where the head office of the brand is.
?
Pfizer made a public statement, which was very diplomatically saying "please don't" to the EU plans for blocking exports of vaccines.
The fact that they said anything at all, shows how serious this is.
Yes, they are spread out all over the world. But that diversity also brings a delicacy into the supply chains.
For example we have already seen, in Italy with AZN, how single plants in a global supply chain can create a bottleneck. And bottlenecks are a weak point, if some idiot starts knocking things over.
Nearly nothing in the modern world is made as Ford once envisioned (by never actually implemented) - a single giant factory with iron ore and coal going in one end and complex products coming out the other.
Mr. JS, it's the same sort of people who think abolishing cash is a smart idea.
I would also like to give the Lib Dems some rare praise for their stance on this.
Stockholm Syndrome is rubbish.
Abolishing cash is a great idea.
It would also be a great victory in the war on drugs.
Ha ha ha
He believes in victories in the War on Drugs - how nice....
I have some valuable Greek CDS to sell you, as part of a complex package of assets including Thames waterfront property (meet me at low tide) and a low mileage bridge at Hammersmith.....
You try snorting some coke with a debit card.
Whenever I tried snorting Coke, I always got bubbles up my nose! Haven't tried it with Pepsi, mind!
Mr. Ping, blasphemy is a religious concept. Using examples is perfectly reasonable.
Hounding a man (or woman) out of their job is ridiculous. But that's blasphemy for you. An infantile reaction, an outburst of rage, and the desire to impose one's views on non-believers.
TBH I don't think the public is in favour of authoritarian policies, they are pro not catching/dying from Covid-19.
I think that is exactly the point and if you think Boris is bad compare him with Sturgeon and now Drakeford who is telling us in Wales this will continue into 2022
The difference between Boris and the other two is that the other want a zero covid response before lifting freedoms and of course they both use New Zealand as their inspiration
They are wrong but if the 4 administrations all follow a different path out of this chaos will ensue
Posters must remember this is just not about England but Scotland Wales and NI as well
Even New Zealand is preparing the population to understand that Zero COVID is not viable long term. Because no one actually believes you can eradicate the virus completely it is a convenient flag of convenience for anyone who believes that a government’s response is too lax.
Blimey have tuned in to PB this morning to see that everyone has turned into @contrarian.
About time. What many failed to see and are now realising is that red lines can be ignored, and others' scoffed at. Until. Your own red lines are the ones being breached.
If I may be allowed to quote myself:
"People scream on here: "but lockdowns work. Go Government". As if that is the most important aspect to all this legislation.
And before they know it they are faced with some measure or other which breeches their own red lines and then they say "well they can't do that". But they already have. And then they look around frantically for Steve Baker of all people to come and rescue them/us all."
Contrarian has been railing against restrictions at a time when cases and deaths were going through the roof and there was a real danger of hospitals being overwhelmed within weeks. That's a minority view, on here and in the country.
The extension of emergency powers to the autumn, when any sensible analysis suggests they should not, in all probability, be needed makes many of us queasy. I supported the January lockdown. I'm fine with the pretty cautious opening up plan. I want to see some very good reasons why legislation needs extending now. As we've seen before, steps can be taken quickly if needed, we don't need to be agreeing these powers now.
You are proving my point. You think it was justified then but not now. Because your view of freedoms and legislation incorporate and justify taking such action then as though it is the only logical thing to have done. "Everyone agrees..."
But someone else's red line was back then and they thought the actions the government took were beyond what was justified given the circumstances. Were they right or wrong? Are you right or wrong? Is the key metric 10 lives or 10,000 lives? Irrelevant. It is the principle that is important. The government used and is using draconian powers to legislate (away) our freedoms.
Watch again that Tory MP and his pint of milk. Seems bonkers. Actually it is particularly acute and relevant.
I'll leave Contrarian to one side, if I may, as his/her arguments also include a bit of denialism in my view. Sometimes, I do find that Contrarian is plain wrong. Stocky was writing yesterday, arguing that what we've done this time was wrong because we can't do it every time. Stocky finds (I hope I'm interpreting right, apologies if not) that the enforced restriction of liberty is just too much, even though the threat is very real. That's not wrong, it's personal values. I'm on the other side of that debate to Stocky, but I can respect the argument and Stocky is in no way wrong.
As you say, we all have our tipping point. For some, we all need to stay locked down/restricted until we can be sure opening up will not cause any more deaths. For me, that's absurd. We don't lock down for flu every year. We don't set the speed limit to 20mph everywhere. We accept risks for benefits. We accept deaths for freedoms. I think we could probably go a bit quicker than planned, but I accept there are uncertainties and the government has been burned on this before, so I can accept the caution.
I'm not on SAGE, nor an expert in infectious disease, but I have worked with PHE/Dept of Health on projections for noncommunicable diseases. Don't get too concerned about the pessimistic reports. PHE/the government always want the worst case scenarios in addition to various 'realistic' scenarios. They like the certainty of a worst case scenario - as a scientist you're basically telling them there are lots of ifs, buts and maybes in all the other scenarios and it depends on actions and a lot of random, unpredictable factors. But with the worst case scenario you're essentially saying to them, I'm certain, it won't get worse than this. They tend to fixate on that certainty and ignore much of the rest (which can be frustrating!). When the worst case scenarios are no longer that troubling, that's when the politicians in charge of this will relax.
The public pessimism at the moment, I think, is designed to get people to stick with the restrictions as they're lifted under the current plan. We're not yet far enough with vaccinations to stop another wave of cases, at least. The unvaccinated are those more likely to spread and more likely to be infected. I expect the numbers will show that we could still get hospitals into trouble if the unvaccinated population goes crazy. We do need people to keep following restrictions now (although, as suggested yesterday by Andy Cooke, I think, it would be nice to loosen up earlier on outside stuff which is low risk). Come the summer, unless the unexpected happens, the worst case scenarios will no longer be scary and there's no reason we can't all crack on.
It's more than personal values. Our liberal democratic structures, which defines our rights and liberties etc, over-arch everything. These rights and liberties are not personal values, they are not fetishes, they are categorical imperatives. I'm astonished that what has happened can be legal. No government should have the power to override liberal democracy for a natural occurrence such as a virus.
I agree, I expect the GOP to retake the House in 2022, voters voted for Biden, a moderate, purely to beat Trump, they were not voting for woke USA as some of the more exuberant Democrats may think.
In terms of the voter suppression in the thread header it can happen as Georgia has full GOP control of the state legislature and also has a GOP governor.
However Georgia was a bonus for Biden at least in 2020, the Democrats would still have won the White House without it, the key swing states were Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania where the GOP holds the state legislature but the Democrats have the governor
People blithely talking as if this is "politics as usual" in America and that their very democracy isn't fundamentally at stake. If the Republicans retake the House and Senate in 2022 then it isn't massively far-fetched i'm afraid to say that that could be it. The GOP have set the baseline for showing a willingness (en masse - the vast majority of the House) to overturn a Presidential election on the basis of no evidence whatsoever. That means that if they actually get the power to do this then they are prepared to follow through. Why would they need any more evidence next time than they did this time?
This isn't politics as usual. The hope is that enough, usually Republican, but rational, voters realise that. And that Trumpism is wiped out. Despite all the voter suppression measures being put in. Hopefully they backfire. By elevating the importance of the most motivated voters. Because these measures may harm a lot of Republican voters as well.
I think this is an important point that's often overlooked. I've been banging on about it to people, but it hasn't really registered. The Republicans appear, if anything, to be swinging more towards Trumpism (even if it won't end up being under Trump) and I don't see why they would behave any differently at the next election if given the opportunity.
I think US democracy, such as it is, will be under threat from this for the next two presidential elections. If it hasn't happened after that, then things are probably ok again.
TBH I don't think the public is in favour of authoritarian policies, they are pro not catching/dying from Covid-19.
I think that is exactly the point and if you think Boris is bad compare him with Sturgeon and now Drakeford who is telling us in Wales this will continue into 2022
The difference between Boris and the other two is that the other want a zero covid response before lifting freedoms and of course they both use New Zealand as their inspiration
They are wrong but if the 4 administrations all follow a different path out of this chaos will ensue
Posters must remember this is just not about England but Scotland Wales and NI as well
Even New Zealand is preparing the population to understand that Zero COVID is not viable long term. Because no one actually believes you can eradicate the virus completely it is a convenient flag of convenience for anyone who believes that a government’s response is too lax.
Yep. The optimum path for NZ is a tricky one and I don't envy Ardern in navigating it. But it involves opening up at some point with an inevitable increase in cases, unless waiting for global Covid eradication (long/infinite wait!)
(by 'open up' I mean ditching enforced quarantine, still maybe testing on arrival)
- Open up when NZ vaccination programme complete. 'Safest' option, but depending how long that takes it's a lot more pain for the tourism industry, in particular, for possible limited gain - Open up to vaccinated people. Allows opening much earlier (even now, this summer) but then someone will bring it in. There will need to be high vigilance as the population, until vaccinated, will be very vulnerable and there's a risk of a big wave if not detected (obviously various points in between too)
I wouldn't be that surprised if they hang on until mostly vaccinated, particularly as closed borders are the status quo and it would be a PR disaster to have a big wave and national lockdown there now.
Alex*, 12, a dual heritage pupil at a school in Bristol, had been in year 7 for less than two weeks when he was wrongly accused by a teacher of having stolen cookies from the canteen at lunchtime.
At first he was told off by a teacher. But then the teacher asked a police officer based at the school to speak to him too.
When the officer spoke to Alex, they are alleged to have told him he wouldn’t be taken down to the police station on this occasion. Alex says he was also warned that he did not want to get a criminal record in the future and if he did, he would be unable to travel to the US.
“My heart was beating really fast. I felt scared, and I’ve never felt like that before,” Alex said, describing the moment he was spoken to by the officer.
The next day, Alex’s mother was contacted by the school regarding what had happened. When she found out her son had been spoken to by a police officer, she was “absolutely furious”.
“I was incredibly angry that my son has been interviewed by a police officer without a parent being present. To me, it was just completely over-the-top, completely heavy-handed and completely incorrectly handled.
“My son was petrified, and he was very upset as a result. I find it hard to believe that a middle-class white pupil from a more affluent part of the school’s catchment area would have been treated or spoken to in this way.
“This was a terrifying episode for my son, which led to him being too anxious to attend school for a number of months.”
After she approached the school for an explanation, the school launched an investigation into the incident. The mother also sent a complaint to Avon and Somerset police.
In written correspondence from the school’s deputy headteacher to the mother, seen by the Guardian, an investigation into the incident concluded that “there was no evidence that Alex had stolen cookies as he did pay for them immediately upon being asked to do so”, and the teacher “should not have jumped to the conclusion that he had stolen them”.
The letter said Alex was in the queue with another student who had stolen something earlier, and that “the two incidents [were] conflated as one, which was not appropriate”.
It added that the teacher who had spoken to Alex had “presumed” his guilt as a consequence.
Furthermore, the school said the police officer should not have been involved in the incident. Although the letter states that the manner of the meeting between Alex and the officer was “not confrontational”, the conclusion was that “it was inappropriate for this conversation to be had with Alex in the first place as there is no evidence that he had stolen”.
If it was PSHE, history, or an assembly on free speech or something - that would have been a more appropriate context.
RE/RS is for learning about religions.
I think the school/teacher got it wrong and they’re right to apologise.
No. That is naive. The people who object to this object to such cartoons being shown anywhere at all, object to any sort of criticism or insult to their faith. Their objection is not location - even though that is how they dress it up. It is to the fact of it happening at all. They are bullies. And bullies need to be faced down. Not appeased.
RE is exactly the place where this sort of stuff should be taught. This religion believes X. But others don't and and while you are entitled to believe what you want you are not entitled to impose your own religious requirements on others, no matter how upset you feel.
We are not a theocracy and we don't want mini-theocracies developing within our country. So that point needs to be made loud and clear in RE lessons.
If it was PSHE, history, or an assembly on free speech or something - that would have been a more appropriate context.
RE/RS is for learning about religions, not bluntly insulting them.
I think the school/teacher got it wrong and they’re right to apologise.
Protesting about it is the problem. If parents want to write a snotty letter about the lesson plan thats not the same thing. Do we think those protesting would not have complained had it been PSHE?
Like hell they wouldn't.
Can't say I understand your premise anyway. What if during RE lessons you teach about christian or Muslim heresies, or the different sects which allow different things (eg in relation to images)?
You'll have 'insulted' the religion then. Is that purely for history class? Why? When you learn about a religion you learn about its development and sects.
It's not a multi faith seminary.
Was it necessary to show such an image? Perhaps not. Should they feel able to do so without facing protests? A thousand times yes.
TBH I don't think the public is in favour of authoritarian policies, they are pro not catching/dying from Covid-19.
I think that is exactly the point and if you think Boris is bad compare him with Sturgeon and now Drakeford who is telling us in Wales this will continue into 2022
The difference between Boris and the other two is that the other want a zero covid response before lifting freedoms and of course they both use New Zealand as their inspiration
They are wrong but if the 4 administrations all follow a different path out of this chaos will ensue
Posters must remember this is just not about England but Scotland Wales and NI as well
But you consistently misrepresent or don't understand the Welsh government's position.
Drakeford's comments are similar to what JVT and Hancock have said. Assuming no vaccine resistant variants there'll be still be some minor peripheral changes to what we were used pre Covid-19.
Drakeford said in the Welsh news that restrictions will continue into 2022, not some minor peripheral changes
I am not sure if you watched his interview on Welsh politics programme
TBH I don't think the public is in favour of authoritarian policies, they are pro not catching/dying from Covid-19.
And yet the second wave still happened. I'm convinced that if asked, my mum would say all the right things. But when it comes to doing everything possible to stop the spread of COVID...
A second wave was baked into every model I saw from last Spring.
With or without government intervention? For sure the government deserves criticism for hanging on to the idea that Christmas could happen, but it's interesting to wonder what the "right thing to have done" would be?
Really we ought to have locked down in September and not allowed schools to open. But if you think the last three months have dragged, just imagine how long six months of this would have felt like (with more to come)? So to a certain extent it was always going to be a case of opening up and shutting down.
Amid all the excitability on here this morning, I find myself in the extraordinary position of agreeing with the government road map (although I don't agree with the 6-month extension to the legislation, and think Labour should have opposed it). I don't actually think either the government or scientists are looking for 'excuses' to extend restrictions.
The road map up to June 21 is cautious but sensible. It's only a couple of months ago that around 1k people were dying each day of Covid in the UK: we forget too quickly, as we did last summer. Things are looking really good now, data-wise, but why jeopardise this by rushing too much? Yes, vaccines - but there's plenty of evidence that younger, unvaccinated people can suffer very badly from the disease if it spreads quickly.
So why the impatience? If the data keeps heading the way it is, then I will be the first to complain if the dates for restrictions being lifted are delayed for spurious reasons. But I'm happy to wait until that happens (or doesn't) before I rail against the restrictions to liberties.
Meanwhile, by May/June we'll have a much better idea of what's happening in the rest of Europe and the consequences of that for international travel. I'm optimistic that a combination of restrictions and vaccines in most of Europe will lead to a similar pattern of data as in the UK, just a couple of months behind.
I think I'll be voting for the LDs at the local elections, especially after the way they voted last night.
Yes, I'm giving it some thought too.
Likewise. Ed Davey needs to get out of the traps and own this issue now. Move the party on from Brexit. Fantastic opportunity. Charles Kennedy would have taken it I rather suspect.
I think the less I hear from Ed Davey, though, the better. He might put me off.
Ed Davey already has done this. You obviously did not hear his brilliant speech at the recent Lib Dem conference.
I agree, I expect the GOP to retake the House in 2022, voters voted for Biden, a moderate, purely to beat Trump, they were not voting for woke USA as some of the more exuberant Democrats may think.
In terms of the voter suppression in the thread header it can happen as Georgia has full GOP control of the state legislature and also has a GOP governor.
However Georgia was a bonus for Biden at least in 2020, the Democrats would still have won the White House without it, the key swing states were Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania where the GOP holds the state legislature but the Democrats have the governor
People blithely talking as if this is "politics as usual" in America and that their very democracy isn't fundamentally at stake. If the Republicans retake the House and Senate in 2022 then it isn't massively far-fetched i'm afraid to say that that could be it. The GOP have set the baseline for showing a willingness (en masse - the vast majority of the House) to overturn a Presidential election on the basis of no evidence whatsoever. That means that if they actually get the power to do this then they are prepared to follow through. Why would they need any more evidence next time than they did this time?
This isn't politics as usual. The hope is that enough, usually Republican, but rational, voters realise that. And that Trumpism is wiped out. Despite all the voter suppression measures being put in. Hopefully they backfire. By elevating the importance of the most motivated voters. Because these measures may harm a lot of Republican voters as well.
I think this is an important point that's often overlooked. I've been banging on about it to people, but it hasn't really registered. The Republicans appear, if anything, to be swinging more towards Trumpism (even if it won't end up being under Trump) and I don't see why they would behave any differently at the next election if given the opportunity.
I think US democracy, such as it is, will be under threat from this for the next two presidential elections. If it hasn't happened after that, then things are probably ok again.
'Technically even if the GOP had overthrown the Presidential election result, they would only have been able to do so as a majority of the House and the Senate had voted to overturn it and refuse to certify the election result. That would not be suppression of democracy as such, just elected legislators refusing to confirm a Presidential election result as they are entitled to do under the constitution.
Though of course even if the House had overturned the result the Senate almost certainly would still not have done and of course the Senate boundaries cannot be gerrymandered as it is set as 2 Senators per state elected State wide'
Of course the Democrats also pushed through 2 impeachment votes against Trump when they held the House, the first at least based purely on partisan grounds, so the idea that the Democrats are Saintly upholders of non partisanship does not really hold true either
Comments
"Actually there is an important difference between our country and many other countries around the world, that is that our country is a freedom-loving country"
I don't know. Where I am there have never been any rules against leaving your house, or going to a park to sit on a bench. Nobody has ever been stopped by the police from buying Easter eggs (did that really happen?). It's not illegal to leave the country. The right to demonstrate is guaranteed in the constitution.
If you like lockdown that's great - you might be better off, quality of life improves, spend more time in your apple orchard, etc - hurrah.
If, however, you don't like lockdown there may easily and likely be serious mental health consequences. Goodness we have seen here on PB, a tiny sample of the UK, how many posters have struggled with their mental wellbeing.
Yesterday I heard that the mother in law of a friend who's son had committed suicide...had committed suicide.
That is the difference.
He believes in victories in the War on Drugs - how nice....
I have some valuable Greek CDS to sell you, as part of a complex package of assets including Thames waterfront property (meet me at low tide) and a low mileage bridge at Hammersmith.....
I always want to have an off-the-grid option. And, yes, many friends are touched with a personal letter - we all don't write enough of them.
People often take the route of least resistance.
I don't think so. I recall the idea being floated here by if I recall correctly Nick Palmer. Nick's not a government spokesperson.
As for complying with guidelines, it won't be required if its optional but actually surely you know that venues do that all the time? They have policies in place, training on how those policies are done - that is how Challenge 21/25 works in premises all around the country. Your daughter will have an age verification policy in place already I bet - you could ask her how she operates her age verification policy if you want to and the Council and Police have the right to ask to see her age verification policy since its a licensing requirement. That doesn't mean they keep records of every punter's age on file, that's not what it means.
Surely there is a tipping point where the people say enough? In Wales we have Drakeford doubling down on the misery act - saying that social distancing, masking and no international travel will be in place for the rest of 2021. It goes without saying that would preclude sporting venues and other hospitality businesses opening up at anywhere near full capacity. I'm convinced that his persona of doom is driving votes away from Labour - people vote for hope not depression.
I would be less worried if Johnson was going to be true to his word about ending all restrictions in England on 21/6 as political reality would then have to bite here, but all the signs are that we are being softened up for a level of control and restriction to remain in place. The ban on leaving the country is sinister, and the justification of variants is sickening, If another country is willing to accept me crossing their borders, vaccinated, unvaccinated, with a negative test or not it should be no business of the Government to impinge on my liberty to travel.
My politics might be of the left - but at the moment I'd vote for any party willing to stand up for personal freedom, liberty and liberal democracy.
Thanks, and ATB.
"Restaurants will have to close earlier..."
I would bite your hand off for such a lockdown.
So that's a "nice one" and an "oh do stop it" from me.
I would be entirely happy to take my chances with the disease. Obviously I'd rather not catch it, but I'm young, fit and can assess risk for myself. Despite that, I do believe in responsibility to society and accepted restrictions on my basic freedoms to prevent the collapse of the healthcare system and benefit the more vulnerable.
Now every time I see comfortable older people talking about longer term restrictions or health officials saying things like 'social distancing is a low cost measure' it makes my blood boil. I've also found I've started having mild anxiety attacks at some of the pronouncements in the media.
I don't expect any particular sympathy, but I do find the way some people seem to be thinking hugely disturbing. If the government does try to keep social distancing or put in a new lockdown-lite next winter, I'm rapidly going to become a single issue voter.
More like this from Ed Davey is, for me at least, a good way to make me consider them seriously for voting.
HYUFD likes to take pride in the fact that he has a 100% Tory voting record and I don't, but as far as I'm concerned the Party needs to win my vote not the other way around. Three times in my life I've not voted Conservative: 2001 (Labour with a pinched nose), 2002 or 2003 local elections (Lib Dem) and 2019 European Parliament (Brexit with a very pinched nose). When that's happened the party has changed not long after to improve.
If the Conservatives become authoritarian then I will vote Lib Dem or some other party. That's all I can do.
I'm talking about the friend going through a rough spell in Ireland, our WhatsApp group, as well individually, can give him immediate support in a way a letter cannot.
A smartphone allows me to do things quicker and easier, allowing me more quality time.
The EU have done untold damage to their pharmaceutical industries, and many others will be wary of investment in the EU
"Surely there is a tipping point where the people say enough?" - well I've thought that for twelve months. Still waiting. No end in sight. Personally, I think Sunak's largesse is a big factor. Keep paying people for staying at home and spring is coming ...
"Drakeford doubling down on the misery act" - yes, the behavior of devolved parliament leader's has been sickening. Falling over themselves for the "who can remove most liberties" title. Bizarre isn't it. Is this all becoming one giant exercise in virtue-signalling?
Thankfully, I'm not alone. Kindles were all the rage a few years ago but a lot of people have now gone back to proper traditional books now and I think that balance is healthy.
But I agree with you. The impact of lockdown on mental health, as well as the economy, is no small thing. The whole point of vaccination is so that we can return to normality. Not a world of masks, social distancing, and being asked "Wo sind deine Papieren, bitte?".
Although its probably more appropriate for senior schools than primary schools. My daughter's come home a few times recently and told me about Jesus and what she's learnt about Jesus, I've nodded along and smiled. Its Easter and I understand why the school is talking about it, same at Christmas, and I've no intention of telling her that I don't believe in Jesus or putting my own views onto her. Certainly not while we still have the magic of Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny, why not have other myths like Jesus in the mix at her age?
https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/1374386230989709318
TBH I don't think the public is in favour of authoritarian policies, they are pro not catching/dying from Covid-19.
And interesting about Jesus. That I'm sure would be my approach. The Holy Trinity - God, Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny. Oh and not forgetting the Tooth Fairy. Four of them. In which order would you break it to your children...
I do get the feeling that dissent is rising, at least with the intelligent ones who have a scintilla of liberalism within them. Not enough dissent yet though I fear. I find it hugely disturbing too.
This is all well and good, but for those of us that don't like to break the law or whose careers would be threatened by getting done for breaking it the situation is a bit different.
I do think attitudes are changing thankfully. I've seen a lot of people in my circle swinging from being lockdown supporters to outrage at talk of keeping restrictions past 21 June.
As you say, we all have our tipping point. For some, we all need to stay locked down/restricted until we can be sure opening up will not cause any more deaths. For me, that's absurd. We don't lock down for flu every year. We don't set the speed limit to 20mph everywhere. We accept risks for benefits. We accept deaths for freedoms. I think we could probably go a bit quicker than planned, but I accept there are uncertainties and the government has been burned on this before, so I can accept the caution.
I'm not on SAGE, nor an expert in infectious disease, but I have worked with PHE/Dept of Health on projections for noncommunicable diseases. Don't get too concerned about the pessimistic reports. PHE/the government always want the worst case scenarios in addition to various 'realistic' scenarios. They like the certainty of a worst case scenario - as a scientist you're basically telling them there are lots of ifs, buts and maybes in all the other scenarios and it depends on actions and a lot of random, unpredictable factors. But with the worst case scenario you're essentially saying to them, I'm certain, it won't get worse than this. They tend to fixate on that certainty and ignore much of the rest (which can be frustrating!). When the worst case scenarios are no longer that troubling, that's when the politicians in charge of this will relax.
The public pessimism at the moment, I think, is designed to get people to stick with the restrictions as they're lifted under the current plan. We're not yet far enough with vaccinations to stop another wave of cases, at least. The unvaccinated are those more likely to spread and more likely to be infected. I expect the numbers will show that we could still get hospitals into trouble if the unvaccinated population goes crazy. We do need people to keep following restrictions now (although, as suggested yesterday by Andy Cooke, I think, it would be nice to loosen up earlier on outside stuff which is low risk). Come the summer, unless the unexpected happens, the worst case scenarios will no longer be scary and there's no reason we can't all crack on.
I don't intend to break it to them. Let her find out at her own pace. I think its an important part of growing up and discovering things for yourselves, sadly some people don't put the myths of childhood behind them and cling onto Sky Fairies then insist that others believe in their Sky Fairy's commandments.
But they need to get the fuck over it and the rest of us need to not walk on eggshells about it.
Sure, people condemn death threats and the like, but frankly, we should feel much free to say even the complaints are unreasonable.
I'm not a Christian or a Muslim, and I'm not a dick and going to go out of my way to insult someones faith, but if I want to do so, or simply to talk about iconography or show info around a religion even against it's own precepts, damn right I can and more than that, anyone saying I cant because of their religion should be treated as unreasonable.
So it upsets them, so what? They need to grow up.
Being offensive is a right. If you can't be offensive, there's no free speech.
This isn't politics as usual. The hope is that enough, usually Republican, but rational, voters realise that. And that Trumpism is wiped out. Despite all the voter suppression measures being put in. Hopefully they backfire. By elevating the importance of the most motivated voters. Because these measures may harm a lot of Republican voters as well.
The difference between Boris and the other two is that the other want a zero covid response before lifting freedoms and of course they both use New Zealand as their inspiration
They are wrong but if the 4 administrations all follow a different path out of this chaos will ensue
Posters must remember this is just not about England but Scotland Wales and NI as well
I'm hoping that the government, in tandem with the removal of legal restrictions on 21 June, issue guidance for businesses etc to remove screens and "must wear" mask signs, etc. Just guidance though.
Which is why concentrating on getting all the over 50s done to a high level (90%+) is a sensible goal.
The question beyond that, is what will be done at the end of the vaccination program?
Some 20% of the population are not adults - and the vaccinations, while effective, are not 100%. It is quite possible that when all restrictions are relaxed, that the effective R will go above 1. So people will get sick and a number will die. What should the response to that be?
You see it here all the time with long term measures proposed by older posters presented as this non-issue that everyone should simply accept for the greater good. Well fuck that and if it turns out that Nige is the only one opposing it then I'll have to vote for Nige.
Drakeford's comments are similar to what JVT and Hancock have said. Assuming no vaccine resistant variants there'll be still be some minor peripheral changes to what we were used pre Covid-19.
As has been said (not least on here, often) all this should be executed hand in hand with behavioural psychologists. And perhaps the current rhetoric about measures beyond June are designed to keep people to the current timetable and enthuse them when the milestones are met.
But at the same time, these are real laws that are being introduced. With real effects (or why introduce them?). And we now have a lot of them, if you listen to eg @Cyclefree not always necessary. "Fear is the foundation of most governments", right? And we now have a government which has a fearful populace and it is introducing ever more measures which are imo taking advantage of that fear.
And many people on here are only now seeing that this might be what is happening.
For me, the problem is that it was shown in RE/RS
That’s what was inappropriate.
If it was PSHE, history, or an assembly on free speech or something - that would have been a more appropriate context.
RE/RS is for learning about religions, not bluntly insulting them.
I think the school/teacher got it wrong and they’re right to apologise.
Enough are already vaccinated that there will not be a rapid rise in hospitalisations. We should be unlocking already. A higher share of the population is vaccinated today in the UK than were in Israel when lockdown ended.
A much higher share of the population was vaccinated three weeks ago, than were in Israel when lockdown ended.
No matter what the arguments are before it’s introduced, once introduced it quickly becomes compulsory for absolutely everything.
Putting up images of a religious nature is entirely appropriate for RE.
They shouldn't be apologising, be better to make it part of the curriculum for all schools.
Pfizer made a public statement, which was very diplomatically saying "please don't" to the EU plans for blocking exports of vaccines.
The fact that they said anything at all, shows how serious this is.
Yes, they are spread out all over the world. But that diversity also brings a delicacy into the supply chains.
For example we have already seen, in Italy with AZN, how single plants in a global supply chain can create a bottleneck. And bottlenecks are a weak point, if some idiot starts knocking things over.
Nearly nothing in the modern world is made as Ford once envisioned (by never actually implemented) - a single giant factory with iron ore and coal going in one end and complex products coming out the other.
Hounding a man (or woman) out of their job is ridiculous. But that's blasphemy for you. An infantile reaction, an outburst of rage, and the desire to impose one's views on non-believers.
This isn't politics as usual. The hope is that enough, usually Republican, but rational, voters realise that. And that Trumpism is wiped out. Despite all the voter suppression measures being put in. Hopefully they backfire. By elevating the importance of the most motivated voters. Because these measures may harm a lot of Republican voters as well.
I think this is an important point that's often overlooked. I've been banging on about it to people, but it hasn't really registered. The Republicans appear, if anything, to be swinging more towards Trumpism (even if it won't end up being under Trump) and I don't see why they would behave any differently at the next election if given the opportunity.
I think US democracy, such as it is, will be under threat from this for the next two presidential elections. If it hasn't happened after that, then things are probably ok again.
Victory in the war on drugs, is when they’re legalised and sales are taxed.
https://twitter.com/AeroSkippah/status/1375119849874198541
(by 'open up' I mean ditching enforced quarantine, still maybe testing on arrival)
- Open up when NZ vaccination programme complete. 'Safest' option, but depending how long that takes it's a lot more pain for the tourism industry, in particular, for possible limited gain
- Open up to vaccinated people. Allows opening much earlier (even now, this summer) but then someone will bring it in. There will need to be high vigilance as the population, until vaccinated, will be very vulnerable and there's a risk of a big wave if not detected
(obviously various points in between too)
I wouldn't be that surprised if they hang on until mostly vaccinated, particularly as closed borders are the status quo and it would be a PR disaster to have a big wave and national lockdown there now.
SCAB.
Alex*, 12, a dual heritage pupil at a school in Bristol, had been in year 7 for less than two weeks when he was wrongly accused by a teacher of having stolen cookies from the canteen at lunchtime.
At first he was told off by a teacher. But then the teacher asked a police officer based at the school to speak to him too.
When the officer spoke to Alex, they are alleged to have told him he wouldn’t be taken down to the police station on this occasion. Alex says he was also warned that he did not want to get a criminal record in the future and if he did, he would be unable to travel to the US.
“My heart was beating really fast. I felt scared, and I’ve never felt like that before,” Alex said, describing the moment he was spoken to by the officer.
The next day, Alex’s mother was contacted by the school regarding what had happened. When she found out her son had been spoken to by a police officer, she was “absolutely furious”.
“I was incredibly angry that my son has been interviewed by a police officer without a parent being present. To me, it was just completely over-the-top, completely heavy-handed and completely incorrectly handled.
“My son was petrified, and he was very upset as a result. I find it hard to believe that a middle-class white pupil from a more affluent part of the school’s catchment area would have been treated or spoken to in this way.
“This was a terrifying episode for my son, which led to him being too anxious to attend school for a number of months.”
After she approached the school for an explanation, the school launched an investigation into the incident. The mother also sent a complaint to Avon and Somerset police.
In written correspondence from the school’s deputy headteacher to the mother, seen by the Guardian, an investigation into the incident concluded that “there was no evidence that Alex had stolen cookies as he did pay for them immediately upon being asked to do so”, and the teacher “should not have jumped to the conclusion that he had stolen them”.
The letter said Alex was in the queue with another student who had stolen something earlier, and that “the two incidents [were] conflated as one, which was not appropriate”.
It added that the teacher who had spoken to Alex had “presumed” his guilt as a consequence.
Furthermore, the school said the police officer should not have been involved in the incident. Although the letter states that the manner of the meeting between Alex and the officer was “not confrontational”, the conclusion was that “it was inappropriate for this conversation to be had with Alex in the first place as there is no evidence that he had stolen”.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/mar/25/petrified-boy-12-spoken-to-by-police-over-false-claim-of-cookie-theft-in-bristol
Still never let the police never complain about them being under resourced if they have the resources to investigate things like this.
RE is exactly the place where this sort of stuff should be taught. This religion believes X. But others don't and and while you are entitled to believe what you want you are not entitled to impose your own religious requirements on others, no matter how upset you feel.
We are not a theocracy and we don't want mini-theocracies developing within our country. So that point needs to be made loud and clear in RE lessons.
Like hell they wouldn't.
Can't say I understand your premise anyway. What if during RE lessons you teach about christian or Muslim heresies, or the different sects which allow different things (eg in relation to images)?
You'll have 'insulted' the religion then. Is that purely for history class? Why? When you learn about a religion you learn about its development and sects.
It's not a multi faith seminary.
Was it necessary to show such an image? Perhaps not. Should they feel able to do so without facing protests? A thousand times yes.
I am not sure if you watched his interview on Welsh politics programme
Really we ought to have locked down in September and not allowed schools to open. But if you think the last three months have dragged, just imagine how long six months of this would have felt like (with more to come)? So to a certain extent it was always going to be a case of opening up and shutting down.
The road map up to June 21 is cautious but sensible. It's only a couple of months ago that around 1k people were dying each day of Covid in the UK: we forget too quickly, as we did last summer. Things are looking really good now, data-wise, but why jeopardise this by rushing too much? Yes, vaccines - but there's plenty of evidence that younger, unvaccinated people can suffer very badly from the disease if it spreads quickly.
So why the impatience? If the data keeps heading the way it is, then I will be the first to complain if the dates for restrictions being lifted are delayed for spurious reasons. But I'm happy to wait until that happens (or doesn't) before I rail against the restrictions to liberties.
Meanwhile, by May/June we'll have a much better idea of what's happening in the rest of Europe and the consequences of that for international travel. I'm optimistic that a combination of restrictions and vaccines in most of Europe will lead to a similar pattern of data as in the UK, just a couple of months behind.
He bought it in a gift shop attached to a major mosque in Tehran.
It is rather interesting - almost Byzantine in the style. A small icon painted tin wood, with a gold leaf halo etc.
Would showing that to an RE class be appropriate?
You might find this link helpful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6rusf6Namk
I think US democracy, such as it is, will be under threat from this for the next two presidential elections. If it hasn't happened after that, then things are probably ok again.
'Technically even if the GOP had overthrown the Presidential election result, they would only have been able to do so as a majority of the House and the Senate had voted to overturn it and refuse to certify the election result. That would not be suppression of democracy as such, just elected legislators refusing to confirm a Presidential election result as they are entitled to do under the constitution.
Though of course even if the House had overturned the result the Senate almost certainly would still not have done and of course the Senate boundaries cannot be gerrymandered as it is set as 2 Senators per state elected State wide'
Of course the Democrats also pushed through 2 impeachment votes against Trump when they held the House, the first at least based purely on partisan grounds, so the idea that the Democrats are Saintly upholders of non partisanship does not really hold true either