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After their party’s flops at WH2020 and the Senate run-offs Georgia’s Republicans act to make it mor

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  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    Britain will struggle to source second Covid jabs for those who have already had their first dose but the EU will not be “blackmailed” into exporting vaccine to solve the problem, France’s foreign minister has claimed.

    Jean-Yves Le Drian, a close political ally of the French president, Emmanuel Macron, claimed that the UK’s success had been built on driving forward with first jabs without having secured the second necessary for full vaccination.

    The EU and the UK are locked in talks about the fate of Oxford/AstraZeneca jabs produced in a factory in the Netherlands.

    In an interview with FranceInfo radio, Le Drian suggested that the EU should not have to lose out on the doses to help Britain with a problem of its own making. EU officials and top-rank politicians have repeatedly said they will block any export request by AstraZeneca.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/26/france-uk-struggle-source-second-covid-jabs-eu-blackmail

    Are we due much from the Netherlands?

    According to some reports we're due all of the Halix plants output. Currently the Halix production hasn't been sent to anyone yet and the EU very much want it.
    And I suspect the EU will get it and there won't be much we can do about it.

    Also an interesting comment about the AZ production yield problems:

    "The UK sites have, however, suffered yield problems, leaving the UK with only 30% of expected deliveries in this first quarter"

    A real shame, as we could have had almost the whole population vaccinated by end of April if vaccine supply had held up.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited March 2021
    Endillion said:

    I've read some dumbass things on here over the past few years, but the notion that today's European Commission is a straight continuation of the ancient Roman consuls - and not only that, but its lineage is more direct than that of the British Royal Family - takes the cake, biscuit and the whole rest of the dessert platter as well.

    I read a science fiction novel once which had as a sub-plot that the Roman Empire never fell, it simply went underground and continued as a centuries-long conspiracy maintained by the "Latin-speaking professions"; doctors, lawyers and the Catholic priesthood. Once humanity achieved faster-than-light travel and discovered another habitable planet, they all decamped there en masse and proclaimed an Emperor.

    It was probably the single worst SF novel I've read (and I've read a lot of SF and of course Sturgeon's Law[1] applies), but I do have to give some credit to the sheer balls-out lunacy of the idea.

    [1] Not that Sturgeon.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Britain will struggle to source second Covid jabs for those who have already had their first dose but the EU will not be “blackmailed” into exporting vaccine to solve the problem, France’s foreign minister has claimed.

    Jean-Yves Le Drian, a close political ally of the French president, Emmanuel Macron, claimed that the UK’s success had been built on driving forward with first jabs without having secured the second necessary for full vaccination.

    The EU and the UK are locked in talks about the fate of Oxford/AstraZeneca jabs produced in a factory in the Netherlands.

    In an interview with FranceInfo radio, Le Drian suggested that the EU should not have to lose out on the doses to help Britain with a problem of its own making. EU officials and top-rank politicians have repeatedly said they will block any export request by AstraZeneca.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/26/france-uk-struggle-source-second-covid-jabs-eu-blackmail

    Are we due much from the Netherlands?

    No, we aren't. Again, it's all an exercise in "look a squirrel". The UK is basically self sufficient for second doses of AZ which is really all we need. The first dose programmes will shift to Moderna and Novavax from April.
    what about pfizer
    They have been stockpiling Pfizer for the last 6 weeks for the 2nd doses, there is plenty in the country. The EU threats are empty and pointless.
    If the doses are stockpiled why haven't they been given yet?

    Pfizer works with just a 3-4 week delay just fine, it was dragged to 12 to allow more use of the doses and remove the need for stockpiling? So if they're in and stockpiled why not put them in arms?
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,667
    TimT said:

    And as actual liberals?
    Always have been. Just that the Tory/Labour propaganda machines decided to paint things differently.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,346

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Britain will struggle to source second Covid jabs for those who have already had their first dose but the EU will not be “blackmailed” into exporting vaccine to solve the problem, France’s foreign minister has claimed.

    Jean-Yves Le Drian, a close political ally of the French president, Emmanuel Macron, claimed that the UK’s success had been built on driving forward with first jabs without having secured the second necessary for full vaccination.

    The EU and the UK are locked in talks about the fate of Oxford/AstraZeneca jabs produced in a factory in the Netherlands.

    In an interview with FranceInfo radio, Le Drian suggested that the EU should not have to lose out on the doses to help Britain with a problem of its own making. EU officials and top-rank politicians have repeatedly said they will block any export request by AstraZeneca.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/26/france-uk-struggle-source-second-covid-jabs-eu-blackmail

    Are we due much from the Netherlands?

    No, we aren't. Again, it's all an exercise in "look a squirrel". The UK is basically self sufficient for second doses of AZ which is really all we need. The first dose programmes will shift to Moderna and Novavax from April.
    what about pfizer
    They have been stockpiling Pfizer for the last 6 weeks for the 2nd doses, there is plenty in the country. The EU threats are empty and pointless.
    If the doses are stockpiled why haven't they been given yet?

    Pfizer works with just a 3-4 week delay just fine, it was dragged to 12 to allow more use of the doses and remove the need for stockpiling? So if they're in and stockpiled why not put them in arms?
    Due to the 12 week thing, you will find that 2nd doses over the next week really ramp up.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    kle4 said:

    Gordo Broon will be worried that he’s about to lose his intervention crown.

    https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1375420152691503107?s=21

    For some reasonit makes me think of an old game I've mentioned before, Republic: The Revolution, where during the course of things the political faction you run splits, and one of your major figures seeks to take you down. You can overcome it and then even recruit them back into the fold, with reports of some thinking the spat then reconciliation was just to make you seem stronger.

    I have no idea of Salmond seeking SNP alternatives would make a difference, but if he instead were to say despite it all, vote SNP?
    Totally without any inside info, but I suspect it'll be something like him running for one of the alt nat parties on the list while strongly advising folk to vote SNP on constituency, that way it would leave a tiny thread back to the SNP.

    I think one unexamined aspect of this clusterfcuk is how Salmond feels about completely burning his bridges with the party that he's been committed to most of his life. Not sure if all bridges aren't already burnt mind, but no doubt there are people telling Salmond that Sturgeon is a passing fancy, busted flush etc and the party & nation are waiting for the return of the king. Fwiw I think he's been poorly advised, particularly recently.
    TUD he has nothing to lose and if it rids us of the current squad of ne'er do wells and carpetbaggers all to the good. We cannot afford another 5 years of fudge and pension collecting by this bunch of absolute muppets.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited March 2021
    If I understand the Scottish system properly, Salmond just needs about 5% on the list to start to have a presence right?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400

    Endillion said:

    I've read some dumbass things on here over the past few years, but the notion that today's European Commission is a straight continuation of the ancient Roman consuls - and not only that, but its lineage is more direct than that of the British Royal Family - takes the cake, biscuit and the whole rest of the dessert platter as well.

    Wait till you hear the one about the legitimacy of a royal line resting on them being directly descended from a god, a Germanic god to boot!
    That's just uncontroversial fact.

    I'm just sad there are no descendants of Zeus - he put it about enough.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Chameleon said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I wonder who'll do worse, Salmond's SIndy party or Galloway's Unionist party.
    Are you totally stupid, how could you even consider Galloway in the same breath.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Chameleon said:

    Going to be called Alba Party.

    All of the Zoomers on Twitter with Saor Alba in their sigs are going to be PISSED !!!
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555

    TimT said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Violence in America
    In 2020 America experienced a terrible surge in murder. Why?
    A modern murder mystery" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/united-states/2021/03/27/in-2020-america-experienced-a-terrible-surge-in-murder-why

    The article mentions that 787 homicides took place in Chicago in 2020, a city with a population of about 2.7 million people. 787 is probably more than took place in any single European country, including Germany, UK, Italy, etc.

    Wusses. When I first arrived in New York to live there in January 1992, we had well over 2000 murders reported for 1991. Of course, the city was already beginning to go soft - 1991 was a big reduction on 1990:

    https://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/03/nyregion/preliminary-1991-figures-show-drop-in-homicides.html
    That's almost at Midsomer levels.
    Or Oxford with the Morse dynasty. Or St Mary Mead in the 50s ...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    sarissa said:

    sarissa said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Presumably Eck is standing for the Salmond Nationalist Party...

    AFI has been releasing its regional list today. Craig Murray #1 in Lothian, Martin Keatings #1 in Mid-Scotland & Fife and Tommy Sheridan in Glasgow so far....
    Dispel that rumour - the #1 AFI candidate for NE Scotland is not the Return of the King....

    https://twitter.com/action4indy/status/1375372731580039169/photo/1

    ISP?
    Grousebeater's saying Alex' announcement is going to be "BIG" - bigger than standing in Edinburgh or leading the ISP
    Flushed face
    - he's waiting to receive a brief. I like the sound of that
    Thumbs up
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Britain will struggle to source second Covid jabs for those who have already had their first dose but the EU will not be “blackmailed” into exporting vaccine to solve the problem, France’s foreign minister has claimed.

    Jean-Yves Le Drian, a close political ally of the French president, Emmanuel Macron, claimed that the UK’s success had been built on driving forward with first jabs without having secured the second necessary for full vaccination.

    The EU and the UK are locked in talks about the fate of Oxford/AstraZeneca jabs produced in a factory in the Netherlands.

    In an interview with FranceInfo radio, Le Drian suggested that the EU should not have to lose out on the doses to help Britain with a problem of its own making. EU officials and top-rank politicians have repeatedly said they will block any export request by AstraZeneca.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/26/france-uk-struggle-source-second-covid-jabs-eu-blackmail

    Are we due much from the Netherlands?

    No, we aren't. Again, it's all an exercise in "look a squirrel". The UK is basically self sufficient for second doses of AZ which is really all we need. The first dose programmes will shift to Moderna and Novavax from April.
    what about pfizer
    There's literally no scenario where they block Pfizer without a retaliation from the UK government to redirect a critical supply component to the US Pfizer vaccine supply chain so we can get our deliveries from there if the EU block Pfizer from delivering from the EU.

    It's not something to worry about as they will never do it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    malcolmg said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DougSeal said:

    I am utterly baffled by the surprise shown on here to the Asda decision which is based on a law that has been in place since 1971 - the Equal Pay Act (now consolidated into the Equality Act). There is nothing that remarkable in there.

    Can you explain it to us ? Warehouse and shopfront work seem different beasts to me.
    This is a long going issue - not just that there should be equal pay for exactly equal work, but that traditional sex-differentiation of work types is also an issue to be addressed.
    The hardest job I ever did involved shifting tyres onto lorries in a warehouse.
    Yes, I did something similar in a vineyard.

    Reminds you why the middle classes don't so manual labour.
    Hardest one I ever did was in a strawberry factory. Had to stand at a conveyor belt for 2 hours at a time, punctuated by 10 min breaks, peering down at the fruit coming through, job being to spot the bad ones, grab it, and toss it over my shoulder into a big bin. I did it for 3 weeks and could not have done a single day more. I often used to think back to that experience, many years later, when I was poncing about on a City trading floor and earning so much more for doing so much less. This probably lies at the heart of my deep skepticism about the link between value added and remuneration in the capitalist economy.
    Luxury , as an 8 or 9 year old I walked behind tractor picking up stones/rocks and threw them in trailer , 5 shillings a week , 5 days 8-5 , farmer's wife did provide lovely tea and cakes etc at lunch time.
    Well they do say that money earned the hard way feels better than if you get it too easy.

    And just like most things "they say" it's a load of bollox. :smile:
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Is Alba bad news for the Greens?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Britain will struggle to source second Covid jabs for those who have already had their first dose but the EU will not be “blackmailed” into exporting vaccine to solve the problem, France’s foreign minister has claimed.

    Jean-Yves Le Drian, a close political ally of the French president, Emmanuel Macron, claimed that the UK’s success had been built on driving forward with first jabs without having secured the second necessary for full vaccination.

    The EU and the UK are locked in talks about the fate of Oxford/AstraZeneca jabs produced in a factory in the Netherlands.

    In an interview with FranceInfo radio, Le Drian suggested that the EU should not have to lose out on the doses to help Britain with a problem of its own making. EU officials and top-rank politicians have repeatedly said they will block any export request by AstraZeneca.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/26/france-uk-struggle-source-second-covid-jabs-eu-blackmail

    Are we due much from the Netherlands?

    No, we aren't. Again, it's all an exercise in "look a squirrel". The UK is basically self sufficient for second doses of AZ which is really all we need. The first dose programmes will shift to Moderna and Novavax from April.
    what about pfizer
    There's literally no scenario where they block Pfizer without a retaliation from the UK government to redirect a critical supply component to the US Pfizer vaccine supply chain so we can get our deliveries from there if the EU block Pfizer from delivering from the EU.

    It's not something to worry about as they will never do it.
    Yes, note that since the Pfizer intervention yesterday it's all AZN & J&J
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    tlg86 said:

    Is Alba bad news for the Greens?

    It's bad news for separatists of all colours
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DougSeal said:

    I am utterly baffled by the surprise shown on here to the Asda decision which is based on a law that has been in place since 1971 - the Equal Pay Act (now consolidated into the Equality Act). There is nothing that remarkable in there.

    Can you explain it to us ? Warehouse and shopfront work seem different beasts to me.
    This is a long going issue - not just that there should be equal pay for exactly equal work, but that traditional sex-differentiation of work types is also an issue to be addressed.
    The hardest job I ever did involved shifting tyres onto lorries in a warehouse.
    Yes, I did something similar in a vineyard.

    Reminds you why the middle classes don't so manual labour.
    Hardest one I ever did was in a strawberry factory. Had to stand at a conveyor belt for 2 hours at a time, punctuated by 10 min breaks, peering down at the fruit coming through, job being to spot the bad ones, grab it, and toss it over my shoulder into a big bin. I did it for 3 weeks and could not have done a single day more. I often used to think back to that experience, many years later, when I was poncing about on a City trading floor and earning so much more for doing so much less. This probably lies at the heart of my deep skepticism about the link between value added and remuneration in the capitalist economy.
    It's difficult. That job isn't adding much value and is very low skilled (anyone with eyes and functioning arms can do it) but it's boring and exhausting, so it feels unfair.

    City jobs are dealing with high value stakes and do require skill (judgement, risk analysis, numeracy skills, people skills) but aren't as physically exhausting and have some variety and interest.

    Basically, we should try and automate all shit repetitive non-skilled jobs.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    If Salmond's aiming for an independence super majority presumably he's only running on the list. The current diddy parties for indy may as well give up now.

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1375447450077573122?s=20
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Great news for Boris and Unionists, even less chance of an SNP majority now with the further split in the Nationalist vote
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    Are there going to be SNP MP defections? e.g. Joanna Cherry?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Who did Salmond hire to do the lighting? He looks like he’s in a horror film.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Both Votes SNP

    WTF do they do now...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Scott_xP said:
    McEleny will get our family's votes for sure
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    rpjs said:

    Endillion said:

    I've read some dumbass things on here over the past few years, but the notion that today's European Commission is a straight continuation of the ancient Roman consuls - and not only that, but its lineage is more direct than that of the British Royal Family - takes the cake, biscuit and the whole rest of the dessert platter as well.

    I read a science fiction novel once which had as a sub-plot that the Roman Empire never fell, it simply went underground and continued as a centuries-long conspiracy maintained by the "Latin-speaking professions"; doctors, lawyers and the Catholic priesthood. Once humanity achieved faster-than-light travel and discovered another habitable planet, they all decamped there en masse and proclaimed an Emperor.

    It was probably the single worst SF novel I've read (and I've read a lot of SF and of course Sturgeon's Law[1] applies), but I do have to give some credit to the sheer balls-out lunacy of the idea.

    [1] Not that Sturgeon.
    Hmm, there is that Ken Macleod novel The Restoration Game with space legionaries on the Moon IIRC.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Perhaps it will end up like Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil: two parties indistinguishable from each other from the outside, but at daggers drawn for decades.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    edited March 2021
    Salmond would burn his own house down to get one over on Sturgeon, wouldn't he?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    Chameleon said:

    So Scottish Tories, time to put yer vote where yer mouth is.

    https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/1375436303320416257?s=20

    If he did manage to lure away 10-20% of the SNP's support then things would be very interesting.
    But it's a fiddled d'Hondt system not FPTP - so the result is not easy to predict.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    tlg86 said:

    Is Alba bad news for the Greens?

    Yes, if they only stand on the list probably even worse for the Greens than the SNP and also increases the chances of a Unionist majority if Alba take Green votes and more Unionists get elected on the list as a result
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    Gordo Broon will be worried that he’s about to lose his intervention crown.

    https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1375420152691503107?s=21

    For some reasonit makes me think of an old game I've mentioned before, Republic: The Revolution, where during the course of things the political faction you run splits, and one of your major figures seeks to take you down. You can overcome it and then even recruit them back into the fold, with reports of some thinking the spat then reconciliation was just to make you seem stronger.

    I have no idea of Salmond seeking SNP alternatives would make a difference, but if he instead were to say despite it all, vote SNP?
    Totally without any inside info, but I suspect it'll be something like him running for one of the alt nat parties on the list while strongly advising folk to vote SNP on constituency, that way it would leave a tiny thread back to the SNP.

    I think one unexamined aspect of this clusterfcuk is how Salmond feels about completely burning his bridges with the party that he's been committed to most of his life. Not sure if all bridges aren't already burnt mind, but no doubt there are people telling Salmond that Sturgeon is a passing fancy, busted flush etc and the party & nation are waiting for the return of the king. Fwiw I think he's been poorly advised, particularly recently.
    TUD he has nothing to lose and if it rids us of the current squad of ne'er do wells and carpetbaggers all to the good. We cannot afford another 5 years of fudge and pension collecting by this bunch of absolute muppets.
    I have no idea how this will effect the vote - any ideas?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019

    Who did Salmond hire to do the lighting? He looks like he’s in a horror film.

    Well, he is setting out his vision for an independent Scotland.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149

    TimT said:

    Interesting aside on the Islamic rules discussion.

    I am reading an account at the moment of a British officer serving with an Indian cavalry regiment on the East Persian Cordon during WW1. Basically it was a line of forts and patrols which ran all the way up the eastern side of Persia to prevent German agents getting through to Afghanistan. One of the things that has struck me is how often he refers to visiting senior Moslem dignitaries in Persian towns and sharing the very fine Persian wine with them.

    Not knowing much about this aspect of the religion my question is, when did the consumption of alcohol become an absolute no-no in the Moslem world? We know that some very fine wines originated in Shiraz in Iran and I assume this has to be after the Moslem conquest in the 7th century. So how come alcohol is now considered such a great evil in Islam?

    The basic ban on intoxicants comes from the Quran as intoxication prevents people from proper remembrance of God.

    You'll know you've got the world's bravest theatre director when you find one willing to put on an adaptation of Euripides' Bacchae, only set in Riyadh instead of Thebes...
    Don't know. Even the Athenians had some pretty rigorous views on keeping the women in the gynaecium.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    What if after the election the SNP and Alba need to form a coalition to govern?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    If I understand the Scottish system properly, Salmond just needs about 5% on the list to start to have a presence right?

    Zero sum game? He's not taking that 5% from the Unionists.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    Who did Salmond hire to do the lighting? He looks like he’s in a horror film.

    And the sound from a silent movie.....

    They need a piano player at the front.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149

    If I understand the Scottish system properly, Salmond just needs about 5% on the list to start to have a presence right?

    Zero sum game? He's not taking that 5% from the Unionists.....
    It's not FPTP. The Scottish system was designed to advantage Labour + the LDs in coalition. But it could work in the opposite direction.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,281
    England half-way there in 25 overs with 9 wickets remaining.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/55282728
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    Carnyx said:

    If I understand the Scottish system properly, Salmond just needs about 5% on the list to start to have a presence right?

    Zero sum game? He's not taking that 5% from the Unionists.....
    It's not FPTP. The Scottish system was designed to advantage Labour + the LDs in coalition. But it could work in the opposite direction.
    List only party.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,242

    Endillion said:

    I've read some dumbass things on here over the past few years, but the notion that today's European Commission is a straight continuation of the ancient Roman consuls - and not only that, but its lineage is more direct than that of the British Royal Family - takes the cake, biscuit and the whole rest of the dessert platter as well.

    Wait till you hear the one about the legitimacy of a royal line resting on them being directly descended from a god, a Germanic god to boot!
    All this talk of being "directly descended" from a god or just any old mere mortal, makes me wonder IF Maury Povich should change the model for his TV show, which focuses on issues of disputed parentage, using DNA & other mod tech to resolve the issue.

    Instead of getting his subjects from the back alleys and underclass here in the USA, perhaps Maury could go uptown, so to speak, and examine the bloodlines of the royal houses of the world?

    My guess is that many so-called lines of descent in royal lineages, are as bogus as a Trumpsky lawyers legal filings.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    If I understand the Scottish system properly, Salmond just needs about 5% on the list to start to have a presence right?

    Zero sum game? He's not taking that 5% from the Unionists.....
    It's not a zero-sum game because of the weird Holyrood voting system. As a separate party, Alba can mop up list seats which the SNP can't get because it is already dominant in the constituencies.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    rpjs said:

    Endillion said:

    I've read some dumbass things on here over the past few years, but the notion that today's European Commission is a straight continuation of the ancient Roman consuls - and not only that, but its lineage is more direct than that of the British Royal Family - takes the cake, biscuit and the whole rest of the dessert platter as well.

    I read a science fiction novel once which had as a sub-plot that the Roman Empire never fell, it simply went underground and continued as a centuries-long conspiracy maintained by the "Latin-speaking professions"; doctors, lawyers and the Catholic priesthood. Once humanity achieved faster-than-light travel and discovered another habitable planet, they all decamped there en masse and proclaimed an Emperor.

    It was probably the single worst SF novel I've read (and I've read a lot of SF and of course Sturgeon's Law[1] applies), but I do have to give some credit to the sheer balls-out lunacy of the idea.

    [1] Not that Sturgeon.
    The book, Arslan is, by some considerable distance, the worst ever science fiction book.

    Though, to be fair, I don't think I've read your example.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149

    Carnyx said:

    If I understand the Scottish system properly, Salmond just needs about 5% on the list to start to have a presence right?

    Zero sum game? He's not taking that 5% from the Unionists.....
    It's not FPTP. The Scottish system was designed to advantage Labour + the LDs in coalition. But it could work in the opposite direction.
    List only party.
    Indeed. But there is a direct correlation between constituency and list seats - the more of the one you get, the harder it is to win the others.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    kinabalu said:

    What if after the election the SNP and Alba need to form a coalition to govern?

    Will 'Though you're a bunch of wokists led by the bitch who tried to stitch up our leader, work with us' be a goer d'ye think?
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    HYUFD said:
    I guess Sturgeon did challenge people to challenge her in an election.

    Probably not what she had in mind
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    If I understand the Scottish system properly, Salmond just needs about 5% on the list to start to have a presence right?

    Zero sum game? He's not taking that 5% from the Unionists.....
    It's not FPTP. The Scottish system was designed to advantage Labour + the LDs in coalition. But it could work in the opposite direction.
    List only party.
    Indeed. But there is a direct correlation between constituency and list seats - the more of the one you get, the harder it is to win the others.
    Smart by Salmond though. The narrative is going to be that Sturgeon has gone backwards and even if there is a majority, it is on the back of Salmond's following, not hers.

    It is going to be a clusterfuck of messaging going down to Westminster.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    edited March 2021

    If I understand the Scottish system properly, Salmond just needs about 5% on the list to start to have a presence right?

    Zero sum game? He's not taking that 5% from the Unionists.....
    It's not a zero-sum game because of the weird Holyrood voting system. As a separate party, Alba can mop up list seats which the SNP can't get because it is already dominant in the constituencies.
    And presumably the logic is that Alba will appeal to those of the electorate who don't like wokists aka Greens (Or at least see the SGs as being overly woke), but fear their list vote would be wasted if it goes to the SNP.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,281

    Salmond would burn his own house down to get one over on Sturgeon, wouldn't he?

    Yep. Unionists should be thankful for anything that splits the SNP vote.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    I am surprised Salmond didn't call his new vanity party The Caledonian People's Front. Splitter!

    Extremist parties always end up fighting each other! Scottish Nasty Party is no different
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748

    If I understand the Scottish system properly, Salmond just needs about 5% on the list to start to have a presence right?

    Zero sum game? He's not taking that 5% from the Unionists.....
    It's not a zero-sum game because of the weird Holyrood voting system. As a separate party, Alba can mop up list seats which the SNP can't get because it is already dominant in the constituencies.
    Just so, currently the SNP only have 4 list seats, so not a lot of eating into to be done there.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    If I understand the Scottish system properly, Salmond just needs about 5% on the list to start to have a presence right?

    Zero sum game? He's not taking that 5% from the Unionists.....
    If the SNP take 45% of the constituency vote (and almost all the constituencies) but different nationalist parties split that 45% on the list vote, then you can end up with nearly 90 of the 129 seats going to supporters of Independence.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    If I understand the Scottish system properly, Salmond just needs about 5% on the list to start to have a presence right?

    Zero sum game? He's not taking that 5% from the Unionists.....
    SNP had near a million list votes last time and got 4 seats due to winning all constituency seats. Anyone interested in independence must vote another party on list, could mean a huge majority and not needing the nutter Greens for support. Not good for Sturgeon mind you.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Albatross
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DougSeal said:

    I am utterly baffled by the surprise shown on here to the Asda decision which is based on a law that has been in place since 1971 - the Equal Pay Act (now consolidated into the Equality Act). There is nothing that remarkable in there.

    Can you explain it to us ? Warehouse and shopfront work seem different beasts to me.
    This is a long going issue - not just that there should be equal pay for exactly equal work, but that traditional sex-differentiation of work types is also an issue to be addressed.
    The hardest job I ever did involved shifting tyres onto lorries in a warehouse.
    Yes, I did something similar in a vineyard.

    Reminds you why the middle classes don't so manual labour.
    Hardest one I ever did was in a strawberry factory. Had to stand at a conveyor belt for 2 hours at a time, punctuated by 10 min breaks, peering down at the fruit coming through, job being to spot the bad ones, grab it, and toss it over my shoulder into a big bin. I did it for 3 weeks and could not have done a single day more. I often used to think back to that experience, many years later, when I was poncing about on a City trading floor and earning so much more for doing so much less. This probably lies at the heart of my deep skepticism about the link between value added and remuneration in the capitalist economy.
    It's difficult. That job isn't adding much value and is very low skilled (anyone with eyes and functioning arms can do it) but it's boring and exhausting, so it feels unfair.

    City jobs are dealing with high value stakes and do require skill (judgement, risk analysis, numeracy skills, people skills) but aren't as physically exhausting and have some variety and interest.

    Basically, we should try and automate all shit repetitive non-skilled jobs.
    I'm very skeptical. You could train up a bunch of bright young people quite easily and quite quickly to do most City front office jobs. Pure market forces, if they applied, should be bringing remuneration in the sector right down since there are many many times more people able and willing (with the right training) to do those jobs than there are jobs to fill. So I think there is something else going on. But I totally agree with you about automating crappy jobs out of existence. If that's not progress, nothing is.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,886
    I guess we'll know whether this is a FF/FG split or a Labour/CUKs style split within a few weeks. I imagine that Salmond's dream is a SNP minority that relies on Alba to be a majority, leading to Alba contesting selected seats in the next Westminster election.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,281
    edited March 2021
    I've been thinking since about 1993 that they ought to have cameras with more frames per second for the side-on decisions in cricket, because surprisingly often the crucial action takes place between two 24th-of-a-second frames.
  • pingping Posts: 3,724
    edited March 2021
    I’ve taken the 5/1 on snp less than 60 seats.

    I expect to lose it, but with war declared in Judea, it seems like a value bet...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    Gordo Broon will be worried that he’s about to lose his intervention crown.

    https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1375420152691503107?s=21

    For some reasonit makes me think of an old game I've mentioned before, Republic: The Revolution, where during the course of things the political faction you run splits, and one of your major figures seeks to take you down. You can overcome it and then even recruit them back into the fold, with reports of some thinking the spat then reconciliation was just to make you seem stronger.

    I have no idea of Salmond seeking SNP alternatives would make a difference, but if he instead were to say despite it all, vote SNP?
    Totally without any inside info, but I suspect it'll be something like him running for one of the alt nat parties on the list while strongly advising folk to vote SNP on constituency, that way it would leave a tiny thread back to the SNP.

    I think one unexamined aspect of this clusterfcuk is how Salmond feels about completely burning his bridges with the party that he's been committed to most of his life. Not sure if all bridges aren't already burnt mind, but no doubt there are people telling Salmond that Sturgeon is a passing fancy, busted flush etc and the party & nation are waiting for the return of the king. Fwiw I think he's been poorly advised, particularly recently.
    TUD he has nothing to lose and if it rids us of the current squad of ne'er do wells and carpetbaggers all to the good. We cannot afford another 5 years of fudge and pension collecting by this bunch of absolute muppets.
    I have no idea how this will effect the vote - any ideas?
    Given the number of wasted second votes for SNP , think they had 750K plus last time and won 4 list seats, would be sensible for anyone to give 2nd vote to Alba and give them a shedload of list seats. Would mean massive majority for independence and force SNP to really try for independence.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Chameleon said:

    I imagine that Salmond's dream is a SNP minority that relies on Alba to be a majority

    And Nippy's worst nightmare...

    What might Eck demand in the negotiations, over and above her head on a plate?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    Scott_xP said:
    Scott_xP said:
    That's a London journalist chappie isn't he? He seems to be thinking Westminster FPTP. The logic isn't that simple at Holyrood.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    rpjs said:

    Endillion said:

    I've read some dumbass things on here over the past few years, but the notion that today's European Commission is a straight continuation of the ancient Roman consuls - and not only that, but its lineage is more direct than that of the British Royal Family - takes the cake, biscuit and the whole rest of the dessert platter as well.

    I read a science fiction novel once which had as a sub-plot that the Roman Empire never fell, it simply went underground and continued as a centuries-long conspiracy maintained by the "Latin-speaking professions"; doctors, lawyers and the Catholic priesthood. Once humanity achieved faster-than-light travel and discovered another habitable planet, they all decamped there en masse and proclaimed an Emperor.

    It was probably the single worst SF novel I've read (and I've read a lot of SF and of course Sturgeon's Law[1] applies), but I do have to give some credit to the sheer balls-out lunacy of the idea.

    [1] Not that Sturgeon.
    The book, Arslan is, by some considerable distance, the worst ever science fiction book.

    Though, to be fair, I don't think I've read your example.
    Arslan has some big, big issues, but I don't think it's an especially bad book. For the record, I'm referring to The Myriad by R. M. Meluch. It must have got some love, as she got another five books in the series published!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019

    If I understand the Scottish system properly, Salmond just needs about 5% on the list to start to have a presence right?

    Zero sum game? He's not taking that 5% from the Unionists.....
    It's not a zero-sum game because of the weird Holyrood voting system. As a separate party, Alba can mop up list seats which the SNP can't get because it is already dominant in the constituencies.
    The play here is obvious.

    He hopes the SNP just fall short of a majority so he has the balance of power and can call the shots over Sturgeon.

    He must be salivating at the prospect.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    So the Sturgeon-lovers are going to have to vote for Salmond to get the super-majority for indy via list seats (even though the number actually voting for independence overall might not increase by one vote).

    And then Salmond says "We must go UDI...."

    Boris says you might have most seats, but you don't have most voters. "Nothing has changed"....

    As I say, clusterfuck.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960
    edited March 2021
    I hereby apologise for any previous posts of mine implying the Scottish elections were uninteresting.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    Basically, we should try and automate all shit repetitive non-skilled jobs.

    And, kinda obviously, you increase the incentive to automate the job if you make the labour expensive.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,921
    Chameleon said:

    I guess we'll know whether this is a FF/FG split or a Labour/CUKs style split within a few weeks. I imagine that Salmond's dream is a SNP minority that relies on Alba to be a majority, leading to Alba contesting selected seats in the next Westminster election.

    You mean SF/GF split. Or even an SF/FF split.

    FG never split from FF.
  • NEW THREAD

  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Carnyx said:

    rpjs said:

    Endillion said:

    I've read some dumbass things on here over the past few years, but the notion that today's European Commission is a straight continuation of the ancient Roman consuls - and not only that, but its lineage is more direct than that of the British Royal Family - takes the cake, biscuit and the whole rest of the dessert platter as well.

    I read a science fiction novel once which had as a sub-plot that the Roman Empire never fell, it simply went underground and continued as a centuries-long conspiracy maintained by the "Latin-speaking professions"; doctors, lawyers and the Catholic priesthood. Once humanity achieved faster-than-light travel and discovered another habitable planet, they all decamped there en masse and proclaimed an Emperor.

    It was probably the single worst SF novel I've read (and I've read a lot of SF and of course Sturgeon's Law[1] applies), but I do have to give some credit to the sheer balls-out lunacy of the idea.

    [1] Not that Sturgeon.
    Hmm, there is that Ken Macleod novel The Restoration Game with space legionaries on the Moon IIRC.
    Mars, IIRC, but the point was that in the real world Spartacus's revolt suceeded and made Rome a democracy, and classical civilization, rather than the Roman Empire, did not fall. Our world turns out to be a simulation. I do like MacLeod a lot, but his fatal flaw is he loads too much into his works. Intrusion would have been great if he'd stuck to the central theme of womens' autonomy over their bodies being challenged from a liberal angle, but he had to load all that Naxalite/sea people's stuff in too. The Fall Revolution series OTOH remains a fave of mine.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343
    You would have to have a heart of stone not to laugh.....
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,921
    Alba gu Brath!
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited March 2021
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    Gordo Broon will be worried that he’s about to lose his intervention crown.

    https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1375420152691503107?s=21

    For some reasonit makes me think of an old game I've mentioned before, Republic: The Revolution, where during the course of things the political faction you run splits, and one of your major figures seeks to take you down. You can overcome it and then even recruit them back into the fold, with reports of some thinking the spat then reconciliation was just to make you seem stronger.

    I have no idea of Salmond seeking SNP alternatives would make a difference, but if he instead were to say despite it all, vote SNP?
    Totally without any inside info, but I suspect it'll be something like him running for one of the alt nat parties on the list while strongly advising folk to vote SNP on constituency, that way it would leave a tiny thread back to the SNP.

    I think one unexamined aspect of this clusterfcuk is how Salmond feels about completely burning his bridges with the party that he's been committed to most of his life. Not sure if all bridges aren't already burnt mind, but no doubt there are people telling Salmond that Sturgeon is a passing fancy, busted flush etc and the party & nation are waiting for the return of the king. Fwiw I think he's been poorly advised, particularly recently.
    TUD he has nothing to lose and if it rids us of the current squad of ne'er do wells and carpetbaggers all to the good. We cannot afford another 5 years of fudge and pension collecting by this bunch of absolute muppets.
    I have no idea how this will effect the vote - any ideas?
    Given the number of wasted second votes for SNP , think they had 750K plus last time and won 4 list seats, would be sensible for anyone to give 2nd vote to Alba and give them a shedload of list seats. Would mean massive majority for independence and force SNP to really try for independence.
    I suspect Salmond battle over the next 6 weeks is to do exactly that. He needs to educate people that once the SNP has won the constituency voting for it on the list is a wasted vote.

    Whether it's possible to convince people of that is going to be very hard to estimate and you need to for betting purposes.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    edited March 2021
    Stupid not to have the ability to hear these "good questions"....

    Very, very poor organisation.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    We need someone to crunch some numbers.

    I'm guessing only 4-5% to Alba.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,242

    kinabalu said:

    What if after the election the SNP and Alba need to form a coalition to govern?

    Will 'Though you're a bunch of wokists led by the bitch who tried to stitch up our leader, work with us' be a goer d'ye think?
    Are you familiar with the phrase "politics makes strange bedfellows"?

    For example, note that the roots of the split in Ireland between Fine Gael and Fianna Fail go back to the division & bloodshed between Pro- and Anti-Treaty Republicans. Yet today they are coalition government partners.

    Granted, it took almost a hundred years, but still . . .
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    rpjs said:

    Carnyx said:

    rpjs said:

    Endillion said:

    I've read some dumbass things on here over the past few years, but the notion that today's European Commission is a straight continuation of the ancient Roman consuls - and not only that, but its lineage is more direct than that of the British Royal Family - takes the cake, biscuit and the whole rest of the dessert platter as well.

    I read a science fiction novel once which had as a sub-plot that the Roman Empire never fell, it simply went underground and continued as a centuries-long conspiracy maintained by the "Latin-speaking professions"; doctors, lawyers and the Catholic priesthood. Once humanity achieved faster-than-light travel and discovered another habitable planet, they all decamped there en masse and proclaimed an Emperor.

    It was probably the single worst SF novel I've read (and I've read a lot of SF and of course Sturgeon's Law[1] applies), but I do have to give some credit to the sheer balls-out lunacy of the idea.

    [1] Not that Sturgeon.
    Hmm, there is that Ken Macleod novel The Restoration Game with space legionaries on the Moon IIRC.
    Mars, IIRC, but the point was that in the real world Spartacus's revolt suceeded and made Rome a democracy, and classical civilization, rather than the Roman Empire, did not fall. Our world turns out to be a simulation. I do like MacLeod a lot, but his fatal flaw is he loads too much into his works. Intrusion would have been great if he'd stuck to the central theme of womens' autonomy over their bodies being challenged from a liberal angle, but he had to load all that Naxalite/sea people's stuff in too. The Fall Revolution series OTOH remains a fave of mine.
    I do like the Night Sessions too! Not many Presbyterians in SF.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748

    Alba gu Brath!

    Alba gu Bath!
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Carnyx said:

    TimT said:

    Interesting aside on the Islamic rules discussion.

    I am reading an account at the moment of a British officer serving with an Indian cavalry regiment on the East Persian Cordon during WW1. Basically it was a line of forts and patrols which ran all the way up the eastern side of Persia to prevent German agents getting through to Afghanistan. One of the things that has struck me is how often he refers to visiting senior Moslem dignitaries in Persian towns and sharing the very fine Persian wine with them.

    Not knowing much about this aspect of the religion my question is, when did the consumption of alcohol become an absolute no-no in the Moslem world? We know that some very fine wines originated in Shiraz in Iran and I assume this has to be after the Moslem conquest in the 7th century. So how come alcohol is now considered such a great evil in Islam?

    The basic ban on intoxicants comes from the Quran as intoxication prevents people from proper remembrance of God.

    You'll know you've got the world's bravest theatre director when you find one willing to put on an adaptation of Euripides' Bacchae, only set in Riyadh instead of Thebes...
    Don't know. Even the Athenians had some pretty rigorous views on keeping the women in the gynaecium.
    Quite, but that only shows that the play was already challenging in its original social context. Now imagine the story of a man appearing in Saudi Arabia as the incarnation of a god, leading all the women off into the hills to live free, proclaiming alcohol as a sacred medium of divine revelation, and making a fool out of the brutal young autocrat, his dogmatism, and his attempts at coercion in the process - it's perfect. The method of said young autocrat's demise (sparagmos ~ Khashoggi) and its manifestation on stage would be even more richly ironic for them...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited March 2021
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DougSeal said:

    I am utterly baffled by the surprise shown on here to the Asda decision which is based on a law that has been in place since 1971 - the Equal Pay Act (now consolidated into the Equality Act). There is nothing that remarkable in there.

    Can you explain it to us ? Warehouse and shopfront work seem different beasts to me.
    This is a long going issue - not just that there should be equal pay for exactly equal work, but that traditional sex-differentiation of work types is also an issue to be addressed.
    The hardest job I ever did involved shifting tyres onto lorries in a warehouse.
    Yes, I did something similar in a vineyard.

    Reminds you why the middle classes don't so manual labour.
    Hardest one I ever did was in a strawberry factory. Had to stand at a conveyor belt for 2 hours at a time, punctuated by 10 min breaks, peering down at the fruit coming through, job being to spot the bad ones, grab it, and toss it over my shoulder into a big bin. I did it for 3 weeks and could not have done a single day more. I often used to think back to that experience, many years later, when I was poncing about on a City trading floor and earning so much more for doing so much less. This probably lies at the heart of my deep skepticism about the link between value added and remuneration in the capitalist economy.
    It's difficult. That job isn't adding much value and is very low skilled (anyone with eyes and functioning arms can do it) but it's boring and exhausting, so it feels unfair.

    City jobs are dealing with high value stakes and do require skill (judgement, risk analysis, numeracy skills, people skills) but aren't as physically exhausting and have some variety and interest.

    Basically, we should try and automate all shit repetitive non-skilled jobs.
    I'm very skeptical. You could train up a bunch of bright young people quite easily and quite quickly to do most City front office jobs. Pure market forces, if they applied, should be bringing remuneration in the sector right down since there are many many times more people able and willing (with the right training) to do those jobs than there are jobs to fill. So I think there is something else going on. But I totally agree with you about automating crappy jobs out of existence. If that's not progress, nothing is.
    Yes but remember half the UK population has an IQ below 100 and about 15% have an IQ below 85, they may not be able to do the more highly skilled jobs if you automate out of existence all the repetitive manual, factory, shop, call centre jobs etc. That therefore risks higher unemployment and a higher welfare bill if it then makes a UBI inevitable
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,853
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    Gordo Broon will be worried that he’s about to lose his intervention crown.

    https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1375420152691503107?s=21

    For some reasonit makes me think of an old game I've mentioned before, Republic: The Revolution, where during the course of things the political faction you run splits, and one of your major figures seeks to take you down. You can overcome it and then even recruit them back into the fold, with reports of some thinking the spat then reconciliation was just to make you seem stronger.

    I have no idea of Salmond seeking SNP alternatives would make a difference, but if he instead were to say despite it all, vote SNP?
    Totally without any inside info, but I suspect it'll be something like him running for one of the alt nat parties on the list while strongly advising folk to vote SNP on constituency, that way it would leave a tiny thread back to the SNP.

    I think one unexamined aspect of this clusterfcuk is how Salmond feels about completely burning his bridges with the party that he's been committed to most of his life. Not sure if all bridges aren't already burnt mind, but no doubt there are people telling Salmond that Sturgeon is a passing fancy, busted flush etc and the party & nation are waiting for the return of the king. Fwiw I think he's been poorly advised, particularly recently.
    TUD he has nothing to lose and if it rids us of the current squad of ne'er do wells and carpetbaggers all to the good. We cannot afford another 5 years of fudge and pension collecting by this bunch of absolute muppets.
    I have no idea how this will effect the vote - any ideas?
    Given the number of wasted second votes for SNP , think they had 750K plus last time and won 4 list seats, would be sensible for anyone to give 2nd vote to Alba and give them a shedload of list seats. Would mean massive majority for independence and force SNP to really try for independence.
    Given the stupid electoral system, why doesn't every party split?

    The Conservatives (Constituency) and the Unionists (List) etc etc etc.
This discussion has been closed.