I think the Gov't has looked at the success of South Korea in this and is thinking "We'll have some of that". You might not like it, but I think that's what's going on.
Provided they don't go full-on Vegan or Woke, that alone would be enough to switch my vote to them.
I think the erosion of the rights of the individual is one of the biggest issues of our times.
Presumably then you oppose Priti's ban on peaceful protests on the whim of the police?
Looking at the last three elections in Hartlepool, the first time I have thought about it, Labour struggled (relatively) when they opposed Brexit in 2015 & 19 (35% & 38%, winning by 7.7 & 8.8%) but did very well when they were pretending to accept it in 2017 (52% & 18.3). So why wouldn’t they do well in this by Election, now that they are pretending to be ok with it again?
If the Labour candidate wasn't so obviously a remainer I would agree with the argument but that isn't the case.
It's worth emphasising that the people most sure that Hartlepool will be won by the Tories (myself and Rochdale) are fairly local and are left leaning.
As we've both said Hartlepool is missing out on the money and jobs that Ben Houchen is getting for the region. And with Ben emphasising all his successes as he campaigns to remain mayor the lack of money Hartlepool is seeing is going to be emphasised. And the solution for that is obvious - vote Tory and join in.
the natives are easily fooled with some baubles
the natives feel they are missing out. Especially as Redcar and Darlington wave 1000s of new jobs at them.
A lot depends on how long the Magic Money Tree lasts in chucking money at Tory constituencies. Sooner or later it has to be clawed back, and it will be.
The tories are delivering Corbynism with an inhuman face. Massive deficit funded state directed spending with a reduction in military capability.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
You say that government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June - don't you think these enduring measures will be framed as guidelines rather than a matter of law though? This is what the road map implies.
No - because they will make them a matter of Health & Safety so effectively make them law. And officials and police will, as has happened before, not understand or misinterpret them. Businesses do not have time to have legal arguments with council wallahs or take the risk of being fined and then have to appeal etc. Mor practically, people will decide that they can't be arsed to go through all this just to have a social life and so will meet informally. So venues will go bust.
It feels to me and Daughter that government has it in for hospitality and won't be content until every last venue has been shut down.
Am I supposed to produce a blood test or certificate when I venture into a crowded Tesco's or John Lewis or at the hairdresser or go on the tube? No? So why at a restaurant? I spend just as long at these places in the presence of others as in a pub. And the tube is one of the most crowded places on the planet.
It is illiberal nonsense on stilts.
I agree though I genuinely don't believe that government has it in for hospitality - why would it? I think what we are seeing is populism, in combination with a government whose overriding aim is to avoid criticism, trumping principles enshrined (so we thought) in what it means to be a liberal democracy. I'm terrified by this.
Such naivety from one who is supposedly to be worldly wise about politicians.
What's naive about that?
Most businesses will presumably decide they want to be open to all, but some especially packed businesses like clubs that have professional doormen and check ID already may choose to do otherwise.
So long as its the businesses choice and not the government's, then what's the problem?
They are already arguments at senior levels being put forward that it is "unfair" to leave the decision to businesses themselves. The Labour Party was saying this yesterday. Some "pub industry representatives" were saying it. If a structure is put in place for this to happen then it is because the Government thinks it is A GOOD THING. As has been pointed out, there are other reasons (nothing to do with Covid) why some in Government might like this idea. The possibilities for expansion are massive.
So if the Government thinks it is a good thing, but pubs that implement it are put at a competitive disadvantage to those who don't (which is obvious isn't it? - people who have been vaccinated but nevertheless consider themselves at great risk are not going to be heading to the forefront of those attending packed public venues, vaccine passport or no vaccine passport), then it's a small step to trying to make the whole thing mandatory.
It is true is will be extremely difficult to enforce. And costly for many businesses. And will not be applied with logical consistency across the hospitality sector. But something being difficult to enforce, is not an argument for expressing concern about things happening. We've seen clearly this Government's response to things being "difficult to enforce". It is to put in place legislation for massive fines - to therefore put everyone on the hook, just because you get unlucky. In fact in that case lack of enforcement by businesses could make things worse because they won't protect you by blocking you on the door. Do you want to live life permanently in fear that somebody could arbitrarily and by chance slap you with a £10k fine because your papers aren't in order (say you just so happen to have left your phone at home on a day you decide you want to pop into a pub?). These proposals are ultimately a potential threat to the vaccinated, not just those who voluntarily choose to opt out.
I too would be more likely to vote LibDem if they start opposing these frankly ridiculous restrictions.
No one seems to want to challenge the spurious scaremongering of Johnson and his small coterie of mad scientists. Chris Whitty, for instance, was allowed to get away with utter nonsense the other day. 'Another 30,000 may die if we ease restrictions too quickly,' he stated. But this was based on an absolutely ludicrous assumption that 1/3rd of the population would be exposed to the virus. Thanks to the fact that around 10 to 20 million have already had covid and another 30 million have been vaccinated it is UTTER NONSENSE to suggest that by easing restrictions sooner 1/3rd of the population could be exposed to the virus. There simply isn't the R rate to enable that to happen. It's literally impossible. And there is no evidence that these so-called variants are going to create trouble for those vaccinated.
I'm tired of this. Not just because I'm tired of it but because I'm tired of the fear that has turned people into cowering dogs, beaten into submission by their masters.
It's time to stick two fingers up at the Government, have some bloody courage and get out there. Yes some people will die but not that many now. That's the whole frigging point of vaccination. As Israel realises.
It's pathetic what we have become.
And it's pathetic what the official Opposition have become.
The estimate of people who died unnecessarily over Christmas due to laxity and other factors is between 20k and 30k, so I would not be so hasty.
The wait until we can be sure is really very short.
This is exactly the kind of misguided terror which is paralysing people into submission.
Since Christmas the United Kingdom has embarked on one of the most successful vaccination rollouts in the world. 30 million people have already received a jab: nearly 50% of the whole population. The jabs are incredibly efficacious.
We have been reduced to quivering wrecks.
Stop living in fear. Get back to life.
I agree, also mental health has suffered from the government's terror campaign. I saw a study saying that a significantly higher proportion of the country were reporting anxiety and stress since it started, ironically more women than men, even though they are much less likely to be affected seriously by the virus.
Last year, a couple of healthy young friends of mine (separately) decided not to leave their homes for three months. Utterly irrational terror, and almost certainly did far more damage through stress and lack of exercise than catching a virus would have at that age.
Didn't leave their house at all ?!
Apparently not. I was suprised too.
The estimate of unnecessary deaths over Christmas is robust imo. Recognising reality is not living in fear.
For the record, I am Category 2 (cancer treatment), and am officially shielding until the end of March.
I have been continuing to risk assess each activity and doing what I think necessary throughout based on prevailing risk throughout the pandemic, including shopping, walking for exercise and eating out where appropriate. Really, life has mainly continued with some precautions.
I will not be downloading any App, just as I did not download the T&T app.
If they try to leverage this to push through a required App, I will happily join you in Parliament Square.
There is a surprisingly strong Labour vote in a lot of Shire England. Roughly 30% in Harborough and Huntingdon in 2017 for example. @NickPalmer is not that unusual as a Labour Councillor in a true blue area. Not likely to win on FPTP for Westminster though. The rural red vote is as unrepresented as the urban blue vote by our political system.
Even at the last election, which was a total disaster for Scottish Labour, they got over 500k votes in Scotland. And 1 seat. Voting systems can be cruel to those who have reasonable support but can't break through.
One reason I've always supported PR is that it enables people to vote for whoever they actually support. Both here and in Broxtowe Labour and the LibDems play endless games with barcharts to show that supporters of the other should temporarily vote for them; at the following election they use the depressed vote to "prove" that it's really not worth voting for the other. The result? Tory MPs in both.
I'd be up for a national deal with parties standing down for each other in the absence of PR (with a quid pro quo at council level). But actually acting on that will get you expelled by both parties.
I do see a risk for the SNP that by their emphasis on Sindyref2 they will encourage some otherwise unthinkable Con-Lab tactical voting, on the basis that we might disagree on nationalisation of trains or whatever, but we agree on not breaking up the country (as an absolute SNP majority might lead to). There are some signs of that when you look at the details of multi-round preferences.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
It's perhaps analogous to the continuation of rationing and austerity after WWII, except on a more compressed timescale.
I believe the Conservatives back then ran with the slogan "set the people free" ?
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
Personally, I think the Government would have been far better advised to just seek an extension of the rules for 3 months (which would take us to 25th June, beyond big bang date) and then review what (if anything) is needed beyond then.
This smacks me as someone in the Cabinet listening uncritically to some civil service advice on what would be most bureaucratically convenient, and not thinking about the politics - which is their job.
Michael Howard said that one of the important jobs that the Home Secretary had was this -
After a major incident, such as a terrorist attack, a huge pile of policies would be pushed onto the Home Sec's desk. Ranging from the demented to the hard core fascist. Indefinite detention without trial at the whim of the Home Sec. was a favourite, apparently.
According to M. Howard, the role of home secretary was to tip the lot in the bin.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
The root of all this is, of course, populism. The government is not following liberalism or common sense, it is waiting for approval from the illiberal risk-aversers and the frit bovine hordes.
"...the frit bovine hordes" Now there's a slogan to run on.
Looking at the last three elections in Hartlepool, the first time I have thought about it, Labour struggled (relatively) when they opposed Brexit in 2015 & 19 (35% & 38%, winning by 7.7 & 8.8%) but did very well when they were pretending to accept it in 2017 (52% & 18.3). So why wouldn’t they do well in this by Election, now that they are pretending to be ok with it again?
If the Labour candidate wasn't so obviously a remainer I would agree with the argument but that isn't the case.
It's worth emphasising that the people most sure that Hartlepool will be won by the Tories (myself and Rochdale) are fairly local and are left leaning.
As we've both said Hartlepool is missing out on the money and jobs that Ben Houchen is getting for the region. And with Ben emphasising all his successes as he campaigns to remain mayor the lack of money Hartlepool is seeing is going to be emphasised. And the solution for that is obvious - vote Tory and join in.
the natives are easily fooled with some baubles
the natives feel they are missing out. Especially as Redcar and Darlington wave 1000s of new jobs at them.
A lot depends on how long the Magic Money Tree lasts in chucking money at Tory constituencies. Sooner or later it has to be clawed back, and it will be.
The tories are delivering Corbynism with an inhuman face. Massive deficit funded state directed spending with a reduction in military capability.
I understood the troop cuts as merely recognition that we cannot recruit. Instead of a 90% fill rate of 100 000 troops we have a 100% fill rate of 90 000 troops. Trebles all round!
The Democrats didn't manage to regain a single State legislature in 2020 leaving the Republicans the dominant force in State level politics. This failure, in a year where they achieved a record number of people voting for President, will carry a cost in districting (or gerrymandering) and in the sort of nonsense that we see referred to in the header. The decisions of SCOTUS have also gutted Federal legislation which sought to encourage voting and made challenges to State laws more difficult. As the Court now has a significant built in Republican majority this trend is unlikely to stop any time soon.
None of this makes what the Republicans are doing right of course but the Democrats really need to take a hard look at themselves and work out why they are so unpopular in large parts of the US. Its not an exercise that the likes of AOC and her city based group of ultra liberals will find particularly pleasant.
But, if the Democrats are really so very unpopular the Republicans wouldn't need to pass all these measures.
The Democrats probably need to pass a new Voting Rights Act to counter some of what Republicans are doing, while they have majorities in Congress.
The Democrats won the Presidency because they were up against a dangerous idiot. But they lost seats in the House, they missed out in their opportunity to take control of the Senate and, as I said, they didn't win any State legislatures. They are popular on the coastal areas but but in large parts of America they are not.
Given the highly deficient American Constitution it is far from clear that a new Voting Rights Act will work. It is all too likely that the SC would rule that this is an unwarranted interference in State laws and strike it down.
The real challenge for the Dems is going to come in the off year elections where the numbers that persevere in a Presidential year are reduced. I would not be too surprised to see them lose the House in 2022.
I agree, I expect the GOP to retake the House in 2022, voters voted for Biden, a moderate, purely to beat Trump, they were not voting for woke USA as some of the more exuberant Democrats may think.
In terms of the voter suppression in the thread header it can happen as Georgia has full GOP control of the state legislature and also has a GOP governor.
However Georgia was a bonus for Biden at least in 2020, the Democrats would still have won the White House without it, the key swing states were Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania where the GOP holds the state legislature but the Democrats have the governor
I too would be more likely to vote LibDem if they start opposing these frankly ridiculous restrictions.
No one seems to want to challenge the spurious scaremongering of Johnson and his small coterie of mad scientists. Chris Whitty, for instance, was allowed to get away with utter nonsense the other day. 'Another 30,000 may die if we ease restrictions too quickly,' he stated. But this was based on an absolutely ludicrous assumption that 1/3rd of the population would be exposed to the virus. Thanks to the fact that around 10 to 20 million have already had covid and another 30 million have been vaccinated it is UTTER NONSENSE to suggest that by easing restrictions sooner 1/3rd of the population could be exposed to the virus. There simply isn't the R rate to enable that to happen. It's literally impossible. And there is no evidence that these so-called variants are going to create trouble for those vaccinated.
I'm tired of this. Not just because I'm tired of it but because I'm tired of the fear that has turned people into cowering dogs, beaten into submission by their masters.
It's time to stick two fingers up at the Government, have some bloody courage and get out there. Yes some people will die but not that many now. That's the whole frigging point of vaccination. As Israel realises.
It's pathetic what we have become.
And it's pathetic what the official Opposition have become.
The estimate of people who died unnecessarily over Christmas due to laxity and other factors is between 20k and 30k, so I would not be so hasty.
The wait until we can be sure is really very short.
This is exactly the kind of misguided terror which is paralysing people into submission.
Since Christmas the United Kingdom has embarked on one of the most successful vaccination rollouts in the world. 30 million people have already received a jab: nearly 50% of the whole population. The jabs are incredibly efficacious.
We have been reduced to quivering wrecks.
Stop living in fear. Get back to life.
I agree, also mental health has suffered from the government's terror campaign. I saw a study saying that a significantly higher proportion of the country were reporting anxiety and stress since it started, ironically more women than men, even though they are much less likely to be affected seriously by the virus.
Last year, a couple of healthy young friends of mine (separately) decided not to leave their homes for three months. Utterly irrational terror, and almost certainly did far more damage through stress and lack of exercise than catching a virus would have at that age.
Didn't leave their house at all ?!
Apparently not. I was suprised too.
The estimate of unnecessary deaths over Christmas is robust imo. Recognising reality is not living in fear.
For the record, I am Category 2 (cancer treatment), and am officially shielding until the end of March.
I have been continuing to risk assess each activity and doing what I think necessary throughout based on prevailing risk throughout the pandemic, including shopping, walking for exercise and eating out where appropriate. Really, life has mainly continued with some precautions.
I will not be downloading any App, just as I did not download the T&T app.
If they try to leverage this to push through a required App, I will happily join you in Parliament Square.
Make that three.
The good news is there is a growing number of Tory MPs who agree with us. That number will grow, rather than diminish, in the coming weeks as the data for hospitalisations and deaths falls off a cliff.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
The root of all this is, of course, populism. The government is not following liberalism or common sense, it is waiting for approval from the illiberal risk-aversers and the frit bovine hordes.
"...the frit bovine hordes" Now there's a slogan to run on.
I'm getting that on a T Shirt. Should provoke discussion.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
I don't hate the comparison at all. If anything it's worse than you say. Then some MPs were trying to ignore a democratic vote. This time people have voted for this useless shower of authoritarians.
People are obsessing about flags and singing Britons never shall be slaves at the Proms while obediently agreeing to be slaves.
Daily temperature tests indeed.
They can fuck right off.
Vaccines are meant to be our way out of this. Not a tunnel into ever more restrictions and controls.
I think the Gov't has looked at the success of South Korea in this and is thinking "We'll have some of that". You might not like it, but I think that's what's going on.
Except that they're not even vaguely competent to replicate it, and it's neither necessary nor desirable to do so.
There are other, less invasive means of achieving similar results.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
Personally, I think the Government would have been far better advised to just seek an extension of the rules for 3 months (which would take us to 25th June, beyond big bang date) and then review what (if anything) is needed beyond then.
This smacks me as someone in the Cabinet listening uncritically to some civil service advice on what would be most bureaucratically convenient, and not thinking about the politics - which is their job.
Michael Howard said that one of the important jobs that the Home Secretary had was this -
After a major incident, such as a terrorist attack, a huge pile of policies would be pushed onto the Home Sec's desk. Ranging from the demented to the hard core fascist. Indefinite detention without trial at the whim of the Home Sec. was a favourite, apparently.
According to M. Howard, the role of home secretary was to tip the lot in the bin.
That's fine in his case - not sure Priti Patel would do the same.
I think the Gov't has looked at the success of South Korea in this and is thinking "We'll have some of that". You might not like it, but I think that's what's going on.
I run a shop.
If the Govt say 'you can only open fully back to normal with Vax passport or app etc'.
I will simply nod and then let everyone in. A few nervous souls might be put off at my attitude. They'll come around when their irrational fear subsides.
This is how everything will go. Do you think pub landlords are going to be any different?
The deference to the state that exists in eg SK does not here.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
You say that government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June - don't you think these enduring measures will be framed as guidelines rather than a matter of law though? This is what the road map implies.
No - because they will make them a matter of Health & Safety so effectively make them law. And officials and police will, as has happened before, not understand or misinterpret them. Businesses do not have time to have legal arguments with council wallahs or take the risk of being fined and then have to appeal etc. Mor practically, people will decide that they can't be arsed to go through all this just to have a social life and so will meet informally. So venues will go bust.
It feels to me and Daughter that government has it in for hospitality and won't be content until every last venue has been shut down.
Am I supposed to produce a blood test or certificate when I venture into a crowded Tesco's or John Lewis or at the hairdresser or go on the tube? No? So why at a restaurant? I spend just as long at these places in the presence of others as in a pub. And the tube is one of the most crowded places on the planet.
It is illiberal nonsense on stilts.
I agree though I genuinely don't believe that government has it in for hospitality - why would it? I think what we are seeing is populism, in combination with a government whose overriding aim is to avoid criticism, trumping principles enshrined (so we thought) in what it means to be a liberal democracy. I'm terrified by this.
Why would it, you ask.
The Puritanism which lurks not far from the surface in Britain. That's why.
The evidence showed that pubs were way down the list of places which helped spread the disease. And yet throughout they have been targeted and not just with the same measures as everyone else but with spiteful extra ones like the ban on takeaway alcohol, even for those with off licences subject to conditions. And the lack of help for wet led pubs, for instance.
The combination of populism, Puritanism and authoritarianism is frightening.
The Democrats didn't manage to regain a single State legislature in 2020 leaving the Republicans the dominant force in State level politics. This failure, in a year where they achieved a record number of people voting for President, will carry a cost in districting (or gerrymandering) and in the sort of nonsense that we see referred to in the header. The decisions of SCOTUS have also gutted Federal legislation which sought to encourage voting and made challenges to State laws more difficult. As the Court now has a significant built in Republican majority this trend is unlikely to stop any time soon.
None of this makes what the Republicans are doing right of course but the Democrats really need to take a hard look at themselves and work out why they are so unpopular in large parts of the US. Its not an exercise that the likes of AOC and her city based group of ultra liberals will find particularly pleasant.
But, if the Democrats are really so very unpopular the Republicans wouldn't need to pass all these measures.
The Democrats probably need to pass a new Voting Rights Act to counter some of what Republicans are doing, while they have majorities in Congress.
The Democrats won the Presidency because they were up against a dangerous idiot. But they lost seats in the House, they missed out in their opportunity to take control of the Senate and, as I said, they didn't win any State legislatures. They are popular on the coastal areas but but in large parts of America they are not.
Given the highly deficient American Constitution it is far from clear that a new Voting Rights Act will work. It is all too likely that the SC would rule that this is an unwarranted interference in State laws and strike it down.
The real challenge for the Dems is going to come in the off year elections where the numbers that persevere in a Presidential year are reduced. I would not be too surprised to see them lose the House in 2022.
That may be mostly true, but Biden won by 4.4% over Trump, in the House Democrats won nationally by 3.1%. Is it really a big difference? If you compare to 2018, the Republicans seem to have done a lot better in the national House elections because Trump was on the ticket. There's a few different ways of looking at at, but I'm not sure that if Republicans find candidates who aren't "dangerous idiots" that they do any better.
Its a similar problem to that faced by Labour here. The Democrats, like Labour, are dominant in the Cities and in University towns but really struggle with much of the rest of the country. State legislature control is making it easier and easier for the Republicans to exacerbate these problems by using districting to decrease the efficiency of the Democratic vote and increase the efficiency of theirs. That lead in the overall vote doesn't do the Democrats much good if they are piling up votes in California in the same way that Labour does in London.
The difference is of course that in the UK the allocation of seats is pretty independent if all too often delayed. The US claim to love their Constitution but it has major deficiencies in not giving that independent element or basic protection of the right to vote.
There is a surprisingly strong Labour vote in a lot of Shire England. Roughly 30% in Harborough and Huntingdon in 2017 for example. @NickPalmer is not that unusual as a Labour Councillor in a true blue area. Not likely to win on FPTP for Westminster though. The rural red vote is as unrepresented as the urban blue vote by our political system.
Not so sure about that, Dr Foxy. 2017 was the election when Mrs May stood on a platform of giving herself (and successors) dictatorial powers, "to get Brexit done". A lot of people resisted this by deciding to vote for the Labour candidate - so the Labour vote was inevitably inflated in that election.
I think that at present there are very large numbers of electors who are not to be permanently identified with any one party. If you vote Conservative in one election, it does not mean that you always will. This is a trap that young HY has fallen into.
Instead, I think, there are large nmbers of voters who will vote Con/Lib Dem, others who will vote Lab/Lib Dem and until recently there was a group that could easily vote UKIP/Con/Lib Dem. Also Green/Lib Dem/Lab of course. It depends on the election, who the candidates are and what the issues are.
In the Parliamentary constituency where I live there are no Labour councillors at all, and I cannot remember when there last was one.
Even today there have been several PB posters whom I would mentally file in the Conservative column, who have said that they are looking favourably on the Lib Dems for their opposition to exending Johnson's dictatorial powers.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
Personally, I think the Government would have been far better advised to just seek an extension of the rules for 3 months (which would take us to 25th June, beyond big bang date) and then review what (if anything) is needed beyond then.
This smacks me as someone in the Cabinet listening uncritically to some civil service advice on what would be most bureaucratically convenient, and not thinking about the politics - which is their job.
Michael Howard said that one of the important jobs that the Home Secretary had was this -
After a major incident, such as a terrorist attack, a huge pile of policies would be pushed onto the Home Sec's desk. Ranging from the demented to the hard core fascist. Indefinite detention without trial at the whim of the Home Sec. was a favourite, apparently.
According to M. Howard, the role of home secretary was to tip the lot in the bin.
And he was widely seen as a right wing hardliner! Perhaps because of that he got more extreme proposals pushed his way?
It is indeed difficult to see why having extended the Coronavirus powers to September the Government won't seek to then extend them for another six months afterwards. The scientists will be getting nervous. They will be worrying about variants, and the possibility of vaccine effects wearing off. They will point to the vastly increased risks during winter, and use the very low levels illness/deaths in Summer 2020 as a warning not to get complacent. They will probably start highlighting the possibility of other illnesses, where having the powers would be good to have (what happens if flu comes back with a vengeance?). Etc etc. After all, it will "only be a precaution", but the Government will need the ability to act rapidly if required. "Delay costs lives".
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
People are obsessing about flags and singing Britons never shall be slaves at the Proms while obediently agreeing to be slaves.
I like that line. It's a sign of our times that the most furious debates we have now are about things that don't really matter, because it's all about people self-indulgently peacocking themselves to one another.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
Personally, I think the Government would have been far better advised to just seek an extension of the rules for 3 months (which would take us to 25th June, beyond big bang date) and then review what (if anything) is needed beyond then.
This smacks me as someone in the Cabinet listening uncritically to some civil service advice on what would be most bureaucratically convenient, and not thinking about the politics - which is their job.
Michael Howard said that one of the important jobs that the Home Secretary had was this -
After a major incident, such as a terrorist attack, a huge pile of policies would be pushed onto the Home Sec's desk. Ranging from the demented to the hard core fascist. Indefinite detention without trial at the whim of the Home Sec. was a favourite, apparently.
According to M. Howard, the role of home secretary was to tip the lot in the bin.
That's fine in his case - not sure Priti Patel would do the same.
It is interesting when Michael Howard is the liberal, isn't it?
For those who don't remember, accusations of "fascism" against Howard were standard from the progressive left....
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
Personally, I think the Government would have been far better advised to just seek an extension of the rules for 3 months (which would take us to 25th June, beyond big bang date) and then review what (if anything) is needed beyond then.
This smacks me as someone in the Cabinet listening uncritically to some civil service advice on what would be most bureaucratically convenient, and not thinking about the politics - which is their job.
Michael Howard said that one of the important jobs that the Home Secretary had was this -
After a major incident, such as a terrorist attack, a huge pile of policies would be pushed onto the Home Sec's desk. Ranging from the demented to the hard core fascist. Indefinite detention without trial at the whim of the Home Sec. was a favourite, apparently.
According to M. Howard, the role of home secretary was to tip the lot in the bin.
And he was widely seen as a right wing hardliner! Perhaps because of that he got more extreme proposals pushed his way?
It is indeed difficult to see why having extended the Coronavirus powers to September the Government won't seek to then extend them for another six months afterwards. The scientists will be getting nervous. They will be worrying about variants, and the possibility of vaccine effects wearing off. They will point to the vastly increased risks during winter, and use the very low levels illness/deaths in Summer 2020 as a warning not to get complacent. They will probably start highlighting the possibility of other illnesses, where having the powers would be good to have (what happens if flu comes back with a vengeance?). Etc etc. After all, it will "only be a precaution", but the Government will need the ability to act rapidly if required. "Delay costs lives".
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
Personally, I think the Government would have been far better advised to just seek an extension of the rules for 3 months (which would take us to 25th June, beyond big bang date) and then review what (if anything) is needed beyond then.
This smacks me as someone in the Cabinet listening uncritically to some civil service advice on what would be most bureaucratically convenient, and not thinking about the politics - which is their job.
Michael Howard said that one of the important jobs that the Home Secretary had was this -
After a major incident, such as a terrorist attack, a huge pile of policies would be pushed onto the Home Sec's desk. Ranging from the demented to the hard core fascist. Indefinite detention without trial at the whim of the Home Sec. was a favourite, apparently.
According to M. Howard, the role of home secretary was to tip the lot in the bin.
But, you have to remember that Boris can't be arsed.
The upside of that, of course, is that if he backbenches make more noise and hassle than the civil service he'll defer to them instead - because it's easier.
I too would be more likely to vote LibDem if they start opposing these frankly ridiculous restrictions.
No one seems to want to challenge the spurious scaremongering of Johnson and his small coterie of mad scientists. Chris Whitty, for instance, was allowed to get away with utter nonsense the other day. 'Another 30,000 may die if we ease restrictions too quickly,' he stated. But this was based on an absolutely ludicrous assumption that 1/3rd of the population would be exposed to the virus. Thanks to the fact that around 10 to 20 million have already had covid and another 30 million have been vaccinated it is UTTER NONSENSE to suggest that by easing restrictions sooner 1/3rd of the population could be exposed to the virus. There simply isn't the R rate to enable that to happen. It's literally impossible. And there is no evidence that these so-called variants are going to create trouble for those vaccinated.
I'm tired of this. Not just because I'm tired of it but because I'm tired of the fear that has turned people into cowering dogs, beaten into submission by their masters.
It's time to stick two fingers up at the Government, have some bloody courage and get out there. Yes some people will die but not that many now. That's the whole frigging point of vaccination. As Israel realises.
It's pathetic what we have become.
And it's pathetic what the official Opposition have become.
The estimate of people who died unnecessarily over Christmas due to laxity and other factors is between 20k and 30k, so I would not be so hasty.
The wait until we can be sure is really very short.
This is exactly the kind of misguided terror which is paralysing people into submission.
Since Christmas the United Kingdom has embarked on one of the most successful vaccination rollouts in the world. 30 million people have already received a jab: nearly 50% of the whole population. The jabs are incredibly efficacious.
We have been reduced to quivering wrecks.
Stop living in fear. Get back to life.
I agree, also mental health has suffered from the government's terror campaign. I saw a study saying that a significantly higher proportion of the country were reporting anxiety and stress since it started, ironically more women than men, even though they are much less likely to be affected seriously by the virus.
Last year, a couple of healthy young friends of mine (separately) decided not to leave their homes for three months. Utterly irrational terror, and almost certainly did far more damage through stress and lack of exercise than catching a virus would have at that age.
Didn't leave their house at all ?!
Apparently not. I was suprised too.
The estimate of unnecessary deaths over Christmas is robust imo. Recognising reality is not living in fear.
For the record, I am Category 2 (cancer treatment), and am officially shielding until the end of March.
I have been continuing to risk assess each activity and doing what I think necessary throughout based on prevailing risk throughout the pandemic, including shopping, walking for exercise and eating out where appropriate. Really, life has mainly continued with some precautions.
I will not be downloading any App, just as I did not download the T&T app.
If they try to leverage this to push through a required App, I will happily join you in Parliament Square.
I think we're saying the same thing. Young fit people shouldn't cower in their homes for no reason. For vulnerable people the decision is more rational.
On topic if the GOP consistently deny people the vote then the GOP will realise there will be a tipping point and if the GOP are lucky they won't be swinging from the nearest lamp post.
The Democrats didn't manage to regain a single State legislature in 2020 leaving the Republicans the dominant force in State level politics. This failure, in a year where they achieved a record number of people voting for President, will carry a cost in districting (or gerrymandering) and in the sort of nonsense that we see referred to in the header. The decisions of SCOTUS have also gutted Federal legislation which sought to encourage voting and made challenges to State laws more difficult. As the Court now has a significant built in Republican majority this trend is unlikely to stop any time soon.
None of this makes what the Republicans are doing right of course but the Democrats really need to take a hard look at themselves and work out why they are so unpopular in large parts of the US. Its not an exercise that the likes of AOC and her city based group of ultra liberals will find particularly pleasant.
But, if the Democrats are really so very unpopular the Republicans wouldn't need to pass all these measures.
The Democrats probably need to pass a new Voting Rights Act to counter some of what Republicans are doing, while they have majorities in Congress.
The Democrats won the Presidency because they were up against a dangerous idiot. But they lost seats in the House, they missed out in their opportunity to take control of the Senate and, as I said, they didn't win any State legislatures. They are popular on the coastal areas but but in large parts of America they are not.
Given the highly deficient American Constitution it is far from clear that a new Voting Rights Act will work. It is all too likely that the SC would rule that this is an unwarranted interference in State laws and strike it down.
The real challenge for the Dems is going to come in the off year elections where the numbers that persevere in a Presidential year are reduced. I would not be too surprised to see them lose the House in 2022.
I agree, I expect the GOP to retake the House in 2022, voters voted for Biden, a moderate, purely to beat Trump, they were not voting for woke USA as some of the more exuberant Democrats may think.
In terms of the voter suppression in the thread header it can happen as Georgia has full GOP control of the state legislature and also has a GOP governor.
However Georgia was a bonus for Biden at least in 2020, the Democrats would still have won the White House without it, the key swing states were Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania where the GOP holds the state legislature but the Democrats have the governor
There are plenty of precedent in the rulings of the Supreme Court that the federal government can legislate on voting rights.
The Biden Administration seems to have hired competent lawyers - at least relative to the last lot.
Blimey have tuned in to PB this morning to see that everyone has turned into @contrarian.
About time. What many failed to see and are now realising is that red lines can be ignored, and others' scoffed at. Until. Your own red lines are the ones being breached.
If I may be allowed to quote myself:
"People scream on here: "but lockdowns work. Go Government". As if that is the most important aspect to all this legislation.
And before they know it they are faced with some measure or other which breeches their own red lines and then they say "well they can't do that". But they already have. And then they look around frantically for Steve Baker of all people to come and rescue them/us all."
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
People are obsessing about flags and singing Britons never shall be slaves at the Proms while obediently agreeing to be slaves.
I like that line. It's a sign of our times that the most furious debates we have now are about things that don't really matter, because it's all about people self-indulgently peacocking themselves to one another.
Don't worry, once economic armageddon arrives, we'll soon stop talking about unimportant things.
Blimey have tuned in to PB this morning to see that everyone has turned into @contrarian.
About time. What many failed to see and are now realising is that red lines can be ignored, and others' scoffed at. Until. Your own red lines are the ones being breached.
If I may be allowed to quote myself:
"People scream on here: "but lockdowns work. Go Government". As if that is the most important aspect to all this legislation.
And before they know it they are faced with some measure or other which breeches their own red lines and then they say "well they can't do that". But they already have. And then they look around frantically for Steve Baker of all people to come and rescue them/us all."
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
Personally, I think the Government would have been far better advised to just seek an extension of the rules for 3 months (which would take us to 25th June, beyond big bang date) and then review what (if anything) is needed beyond then.
This smacks me as someone in the Cabinet listening uncritically to some civil service advice on what would be most bureaucratically convenient, and not thinking about the politics - which is their job.
Michael Howard said that one of the important jobs that the Home Secretary had was this -
After a major incident, such as a terrorist attack, a huge pile of policies would be pushed onto the Home Sec's desk. Ranging from the demented to the hard core fascist. Indefinite detention without trial at the whim of the Home Sec. was a favourite, apparently.
According to M. Howard, the role of home secretary was to tip the lot in the bin.
Wasn't he in favour of ID cards? Some liberal him.
I think the Gov't has looked at the success of South Korea in this and is thinking "We'll have some of that". You might not like it, but I think that's what's going on.
Provided they don't go full-on Vegan or Woke, that alone would be enough to switch my vote to them.
I think the erosion of the rights of the individual is one of the biggest issues of our times.
Presumably then you oppose Priti's ban on peaceful protests on the whim of the police?
I would look carefully at proposals to circumscribe extremely disruptive protests like the XR one in 2019 that closed down London - the right to protest is not absolute - but I'd want very careful safeguarding measures.
More broadly, I think the justice system (not the police) is now underfunded - and I'd focus effort there.
Blimey have tuned in to PB this morning to see that everyone has turned into @contrarian.
About time. What many failed to see and are now realising is that red lines can be ignored, and others' scoffed at. Until. Your own red lines are the ones being breached.
If I may be allowed to quote myself:
"People scream on here: "but lockdowns work. Go Government". As if that is the most important aspect to all this legislation.
And before they know it they are faced with some measure or other which breeches their own red lines and then they say "well they can't do that". But they already have. And then they look around frantically for Steve Baker of all people to come and rescue them/us all."
I'm not sure if it is worrying or encouraging, but the most cautious now seem to be cabinet ministers. People are going about their lives. I saw someone mooching reading funny greeting cards yesterday and then NOT buying one. Britons are increasingly ready to re-emerge.
The Govt will have to accept that reopening will happen according to public pace. Not their far too wary timetable. If they want to keep their position in the polls they'll come around to it soon enough.
So I've been invited for second Pfizer jab next week.
It was due at the end of April.
Hurrah for the EU playing silly buggers and me getting fully vaccinated sooner than planned as the NHS prioritise second jabs over first jabs.
Excellent news.
I am on holiday now. And what am I doing with my free time? Well apart from the sausage sandwich (on white bread with red sauce in case anyone has other, ridiculous, ideas) I am sitting here on effing PB.
This is 9am on Day 1. Dear god I realise as if I hadn't realised earlier how people who have been furloughed for a year must be suffering. To have stayed sane all this time will have required the most enormous expenditure of mental resilience.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
Personally, I think the Government would have been far better advised to just seek an extension of the rules for 3 months (which would take us to 25th June, beyond big bang date) and then review what (if anything) is needed beyond then.
This smacks me as someone in the Cabinet listening uncritically to some civil service advice on what would be most bureaucratically convenient, and not thinking about the politics - which is their job.
Michael Howard said that one of the important jobs that the Home Secretary had was this -
After a major incident, such as a terrorist attack, a huge pile of policies would be pushed onto the Home Sec's desk. Ranging from the demented to the hard core fascist. Indefinite detention without trial at the whim of the Home Sec. was a favourite, apparently.
According to M. Howard, the role of home secretary was to tip the lot in the bin.
Wasn't he in favour of ID cards? Some liberal him.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Where are you getting this from that this is what is going to happen?
Utterly inexcusable if it did happen and I've seen no government spokespeople say it will happen. I can't believe it will.
You seem to be reacting to what conspiracy theorists are saying will happen, not what anyone is actually saying will happen. Restrictions end 21/6 and to do otherwise will go down like a lead balloon.
Plenty of other articles suggesting that 2 metre social distancing will be back (note currently it's 1.5 metres) unless you do this.
We are getting the same kite-flying as before which was remarkably similar to what then was enacted. And some of it is coming from the PM. Of course maybe he doesn't know what is happening in his own government. That could be a possibility I suppose.
Nothing in that article says what you're saying, that distancing rules would still be required post 21/6.
Saying that pubs have the option to require vaccines, if they wish to do so, is not the same thing as saying its compulsory or that social distancing will be required.
Social distancing will be required until 21/6. After that though, they're pledged to remove it.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
Personally, I think the Government would have been far better advised to just seek an extension of the rules for 3 months (which would take us to 25th June, beyond big bang date) and then review what (if anything) is needed beyond then.
This smacks me as someone in the Cabinet listening uncritically to some civil service advice on what would be most bureaucratically convenient, and not thinking about the politics - which is their job.
Michael Howard said that one of the important jobs that the Home Secretary had was this -
After a major incident, such as a terrorist attack, a huge pile of policies would be pushed onto the Home Sec's desk. Ranging from the demented to the hard core fascist. Indefinite detention without trial at the whim of the Home Sec. was a favourite, apparently.
According to M. Howard, the role of home secretary was to tip the lot in the bin.
Wasn't he in favour of ID cards? Some liberal him.
The problem with ID cards in the UK, as Howard himself pointed out, is not the ID card.
It is the desire by some in government to link all records to them. And make all of those records accessible to all "customers" of the system. Such as the ability of a council employee to see your medical records, under the last attempt at such a system, when investigating misuse of the recycling bins......
Not sure if I have mentioned but my wife is a town clerk. There is uproar in the town clerk network as the government has not extended the ability of town and parish councils to hold online meetings beyond 7th May. The letter which has gone out to them explaining this is very patronising as they now have legal duties to hold meetings however I would imagine that most have nowhere to do this. The town hall chamber at my wife's council can hold 6 people in a Covid secure manner. This would mean only 5 councillors in attendance therefore inquorate and no public representations as these will be impossible to control. Until all restrictions for inside meetings are removed the council will not be able to function. The government solution is to for clerk to ask for power to make decisions out if meeting, and for individual councillors to have single level approval.
Interestingly the government has extended their own ability to meet remotely!
Orgs are going to court to argue that local authorities at least have the power to meet remotely under older legislation, but that requires creative interpretation and we probably won't know until close to election day.
The need to socially distance is the big issue, as you say. There are procedural solutions, but many councillors wont like them so it causes aggravation.
Blimey have tuned in to PB this morning to see that everyone has turned into @contrarian.
About time. What many failed to see and are now realising is that red lines can be ignored, and others' scoffed at. Until. Your own red lines are the ones being breached.
If I may be allowed to quote myself:
"People scream on here: "but lockdowns work. Go Government". As if that is the most important aspect to all this legislation.
And before they know it they are faced with some measure or other which breeches their own red lines and then they say "well they can't do that". But they already have. And then they look around frantically for Steve Baker of all people to come and rescue them/us all."
Contrarian has been railing against restrictions at a time when cases and deaths were going through the roof and there was a real danger of hospitals being overwhelmed within weeks. That's a minority view, on here and in the country.
The extension of emergency powers to the autumn, when any sensible analysis suggests they should not, in all probability, be needed makes many of us queasy. I supported the January lockdown. I'm fine with the pretty cautious opening up plan. I want to see some very good reasons why legislation needs extending now. As we've seen before, steps can be taken quickly if needed, we don't need to be agreeing these powers now.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
Personally, I think the Government would have been far better advised to just seek an extension of the rules for 3 months (which would take us to 25th June, beyond big bang date) and then review what (if anything) is needed beyond then.
This smacks me as someone in the Cabinet listening uncritically to some civil service advice on what would be most bureaucratically convenient, and not thinking about the politics - which is their job.
Michael Howard said that one of the important jobs that the Home Secretary had was this -
After a major incident, such as a terrorist attack, a huge pile of policies would be pushed onto the Home Sec's desk. Ranging from the demented to the hard core fascist. Indefinite detention without trial at the whim of the Home Sec. was a favourite, apparently.
According to M. Howard, the role of home secretary was to tip the lot in the bin.
And he was widely seen as a right wing hardliner! Perhaps because of that he got more extreme proposals pushed his way?
It is indeed difficult to see why having extended the Coronavirus powers to September the Government won't seek to then extend them for another six months afterwards. The scientists will be getting nervous. They will be worrying about variants, and the possibility of vaccine effects wearing off. They will point to the vastly increased risks during winter, and use the very low levels illness/deaths in Summer 2020 as a warning not to get complacent. They will probably start highlighting the possibility of other illnesses, where having the powers would be good to have (what happens if flu comes back with a vengeance?). Etc etc. After all, it will "only be a precaution", but the Government will need the ability to act rapidly if required. "Delay costs lives".
60 odd letters to Graham Brady at that point.
Not so sure. The MPs will go where the voters go. My fear about this whole thing is not the this will be done in defiance of popular opinion. It is that illiberal measures are popular. Even if they need to be spun permanently as "temporary". We've seen how compliant the population have been over the last year, and how support for the Government goes up whenever they tighten up restrictions. This may be a temporary response to fear of Covid. But i'm not so sure. The Government have got a taste for what they can get away with and be popular. If MPs see figures showing that their voters agree with the Government, then they will ditch their supposed personal principles. If they ever really had any.
So I've been invited for second Pfizer jab next week.
It was due at the end of April.
Hurrah for the EU playing silly buggers and me getting fully vaccinated sooner than planned as the NHS prioritise second jabs over first jabs.
Excellent news.
I am on holiday now. And what am I doing with my free time? Well apart from the sausage sandwich (on white bread with red sauce in case anyone has other, ridiculous, ideas) I am sitting here on effing PB.
This is 9am on Day 1. Dear god I realise as if I hadn't realised earlier how people who have been furloughed for a year must be suffering. To have stayed sane all this time will have required the most enormous expenditure of mental resilience.
This lockdown has to end.
Because we can see the end of this (thanks to the vaccine) this last bit is dragging, I noted one of the side effects of the vaccine is impatience for it to be all over.
I refer the honourable gentleman to this which sums it up perfectly.
It is unthinkable and needs to be shot down. It will be shot down.
Some people come up with stupid ideas all the time. See every single Budget where wealth taxes etc are floated in the build up but they never actually happen because they're a stupid idea.
If every stupid idea everyone had ever floated actually happened we'd be in a very different country. This sort of nonsense will never see the light of day, or I will eat my hat and my membership at the same time.
Not sure if I have mentioned but my wife is a town clerk. There is uproar in the town clerk network as the government has not extended the ability of town and parish councils to hold online meetings beyond 7th May. The letter which has gone out to them explaining this is very patronising as they now have legal duties to hold meetings however I would imagine that most have nowhere to do this. The town hall chamber at my wife's council can hold 6 people in a Covid secure manner. This would mean only 5 councillors in attendance therefore inquorate and no public representations as these will be impossible to control. Until all restrictions for inside meetings are removed the council will not be able to function. The government solution is to for clerk to ask for power to make decisions out if meeting, and for individual councillors to have single level approval.
Interestingly the government has extended their own ability to meet remotely!
Orgs are going to court to argue that local authorities at least have the power to meet remotely under older legislation, but that requires creative interpretation and we probably won't know until close to election day.
The need to socially distance is the big issue, as you say. There are procedural solutions, but many councillors wont like them so it causes aggravation.
An interesting anecdote.
In the past week I've enquired about booking two venues for events in June and July.
A capacious village hall for a local group event.
And a massive commercial venue for work.
The village hall run by local worry warts mandates windows open and masks on and distancing throughout.
The commercial venue is rightly leaving it up to organisers of business event.
On topic if the GOP consistently deny people the vote then the GOP will realise there will be a tipping point and if the GOP are lucky they won't be swinging from the nearest lamp post.
The GOP are only able to impose voter suppression measures in states where voters already have voted for them to hold both chambers of the state legislature and the governorship, like Georgia
I think I'll be voting for the LDs at the local elections, especially after the way they voted last night.
Yes, I'm giving it some thought too.
Likewise.
Ed Davey needs to get out of the traps and own this issue now. Move the party on from Brexit. Fantastic opportunity. Charles Kennedy would have taken it I rather suspect.
Good for the professor. The only loons are those who would still try to push us toward a war that has no strategic benefit to the UK, to topple a dictatorship with at least some regard for religious toleration and personal freedom, and replace it with a vicious Islamist theocracy and terrorist breeding ground. We have sided with 'the baddies' in Syria. If we don't like Russia holding the moral high ground, don't give them it.
I think I'll be voting for the LDs at the local elections, especially after the way they voted last night.
Yes, I'm giving it some thought too.
Likewise.
Ed Davey needs to get out of the traps and own this issue now. Move the party on from Brexit. Fantastic opportunity. Charles Kennedy would have taken it I rather suspect.
Interesting thing is, why are Labour not doing that? Just because they've made some capital out of being more cautious than the government, doesn't preclude them from taking the opposite approach now.
It does feel like the government are fighting the last war.
So I've been invited for second Pfizer jab next week.
It was due at the end of April.
Hurrah for the EU playing silly buggers and me getting fully vaccinated sooner than planned as the NHS prioritise second jabs over first jabs.
Excellent news.
I am on holiday now. And what am I doing with my free time? Well apart from the sausage sandwich (on white bread with red sauce in case anyone has other, ridiculous, ideas) I am sitting here on effing PB.
This is 9am on Day 1. Dear god I realise as if I hadn't realised earlier how people who have been furloughed for a year must be suffering. To have stayed sane all this time will have required the most enormous expenditure of mental resilience.
This lockdown has to end.
The quiet desperation tales must be legion.
A year ago the public would not have considered allowing this more than a single minute longer than is absolutely necessary.
Yet here we are. Seemingly the public can't get enough of it according to focus groups.
Good for the professor. The only loons are those who would still try to push us toward a war that has no strategic benefit to the UK, to topple a dictatorship with at least some regard for religious toleration and personal freedom, and replace it with a vicious Islamist theocracy and terrorist breeding ground. We have sided with 'the baddies' in Syria. If we don't like Russia holding the moral high ground, don't give them it.
So you think lying, smearing people as "state agents" and working with the FSB under Putin is a good thing?
Or do you just believe in the childish garbage about the "Enemy of my enemy...." ??
Such naivety from one who is supposedly to be worldly wise about politicians.
What's naive about that?
Most businesses will presumably decide they want to be open to all, but some especially packed businesses like clubs that have professional doormen and check ID already may choose to do otherwise.
So long as its the businesses choice and not the government's, then what's the problem?
They are already arguments at senior levels being put forward that it is "unfair" to leave the decision to businesses themselves. The Labour Party was saying this yesterday. Some "pub industry representatives" were saying it. If a structure is put in place for this to happen then it is because the Government thinks it is A GOOD THING. As has been pointed out, there are other reasons (nothing to do with Covid) why some in Government might like this idea. The possibilities for expansion are massive.
So if the Government thinks it is a good thing, but pubs that implement it are put at a competitive disadvantage to those who don't (which is obvious isn't it? - people who have been vaccinated but nevertheless consider themselves at great risk are not going to be heading to the forefront of those attending packed public venues, vaccine passport or no vaccine passport), then it's a small step to trying to make the whole thing mandatory.
It is true is will be extremely difficult to enforce. And costly for many businesses. And will not be applied with logical consistency across the hospitality sector. But something being difficult to enforce, is not an argument for expressing concern about things happening. We've seen clearly this Government's response to things being "difficult to enforce". It is to put in place legislation for massive fines - to therefore put everyone on the hook, just because you get unlucky. In fact in that case lack of enforcement by businesses could make things worse because they won't protect you by blocking you on the door. Do you want to live life permanently in fear that somebody could arbitrarily and by chance slap you with a £10k fine because your papers aren't in order (say you just so happen to have left your phone at home on a day you decide you want to pop into a pub?). These proposals are ultimately a potential threat to the vaccinated, not just those who voluntarily choose to opt out.
The Labour Party being against businesses running themselves is nothing new. The Tories shouldn't buy that nonsense.
A structure has to be put in place in order to allow aviation, for which its needed. The only question is whether pubs are permitted to access that system if they want to do so, which the overwhelming majority will not want to do so.
It won't cost a penny to enforce if its optional. Businesses that don't want to enforce it won't do so, those that do will probably be the sort that already have professional doormen that Check ID on the way in already anyway.
Why would there be fines for an optional system? If its propietor's choice then there's no risk of fines.
Blimey have tuned in to PB this morning to see that everyone has turned into @contrarian.
About time. What many failed to see and are now realising is that red lines can be ignored, and others' scoffed at. Until. Your own red lines are the ones being breached.
If I may be allowed to quote myself:
"People scream on here: "but lockdowns work. Go Government". As if that is the most important aspect to all this legislation.
And before they know it they are faced with some measure or other which breeches their own red lines and then they say "well they can't do that". But they already have. And then they look around frantically for Steve Baker of all people to come and rescue them/us all."
Contrarian has been railing against restrictions at a time when cases and deaths were going through the roof and there was a real danger of hospitals being overwhelmed within weeks. That's a minority view, on here and in the country.
The extension of emergency powers to the autumn, when any sensible analysis suggests they should not, in all probability, be needed makes many of us queasy. I supported the January lockdown. I'm fine with the pretty cautious opening up plan. I want to see some very good reasons why legislation needs extending now. As we've seen before, steps can be taken quickly if needed, we don't need to be agreeing these powers now.
You are proving my point. You think it was justified then but not now. Because your view of freedoms and legislation incorporate and justify taking such action then as though it is the only logical thing to have done. "Everyone agrees..."
But someone else's red line was back then and they thought the actions the government took were beyond what was justified given the circumstances. Were they right or wrong? Are you right or wrong? Is the key metric 10 lives or 10,000 lives? Irrelevant. It is the principle that is important. The government used and is using draconian powers to legislate (away) our freedoms.
Watch again that Tory MP and his pint of milk. Seems bonkers. Actually it is particularly acute and relevant.
Blimey have tuned in to PB this morning to see that everyone has turned into @contrarian.
About time. What many failed to see and are now realising is that red lines can be ignored, and others' scoffed at. Until. Your own red lines are the ones being breached.
If I may be allowed to quote myself:
"People scream on here: "but lockdowns work. Go Government". As if that is the most important aspect to all this legislation.
And before they know it they are faced with some measure or other which breeches their own red lines and then they say "well they can't do that". But they already have. And then they look around frantically for Steve Baker of all people to come and rescue them/us all."
Contrarian has been railing against restrictions at a time when cases and deaths were going through the roof and there was a real danger of hospitals being overwhelmed within weeks. That's a minority view, on here and in the country.
The extension of emergency powers to the autumn, when any sensible analysis suggests they should not, in all probability, be needed makes many of us queasy. I supported the January lockdown. I'm fine with the pretty cautious opening up plan. I want to see some very good reasons why legislation needs extending now. As we've seen before, steps can be taken quickly if needed, we don't need to be agreeing these powers now.
We have never needed the Coronavirus Act, as I have argued above and below the line, ad nauseam. The Civil Contingencies Act - itself an authoritarian piece of legislation - provides all the powers needed. The only reason for the Coronavirus Act is to avoid any scrutiny of the government. By passing it MPs rendered themselves irrelevant.
So I've been invited for second Pfizer jab next week.
It was due at the end of April.
Hurrah for the EU playing silly buggers and me getting fully vaccinated sooner than planned as the NHS prioritise second jabs over first jabs.
Excellent news.
I am on holiday now. And what am I doing with my free time? Well apart from the sausage sandwich (on white bread with red sauce in case anyone has other, ridiculous, ideas) I am sitting here on effing PB.
This is 9am on Day 1. Dear god I realise as if I hadn't realised earlier how people who have been furloughed for a year must be suffering. To have stayed sane all this time will have required the most enormous expenditure of mental resilience.
This lockdown has to end.
Because we can see the end of this (thanks to the vaccine) this last bit is dragging, I noted one of the side effects of the vaccine is impatience for it to be all over.
I refer the honourable gentleman to this which sums it up perfectly.
Yes it's very good. And there is some of that "we're almost there" about it. But we still have another three months until all restrictions are lifted.
The elites really do assume that everyone has a smartphone and internet access. Millions don't have either. They (the people in charge) live in such a bubble.
I think I'll be voting for the LDs at the local elections, especially after the way they voted last night.
Yes, I'm giving it some thought too.
Likewise.
Ed Davey needs to get out of the traps and own this issue now. Move the party on from Brexit. Fantastic opportunity. Charles Kennedy would have taken it I rather suspect.
Does he have the balls and wit to do so? I hope so. Starmer is hopeless - too scared of his own shadow.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
I don't hate the comparison at all. If anything it's worse than you say. Then some MPs were trying to ignore a democratic vote. This time people have voted for this useless shower of authoritarians.
People are obsessing about flags and singing Britons never shall be slaves at the Proms while obediently agreeing to be slaves.
Daily temperature tests indeed.
They can fuck right off.
Vaccines are meant to be our way out of this. Not a tunnel into ever more restrictions and controls.
If any of that were to happen, then I agree entirely they can fuck off. And I would quit the party again, as I quit it the last time we had an authoritarian as party leader.
I simply do not believe it will happen. I might be in denial, but I just don't believe it is possible that will be done.
Restrictions to end 21/6, no ifs no buts. That's my line.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
Personally, I think the Government would have been far better advised to just seek an extension of the rules for 3 months (which would take us to 25th June, beyond big bang date) and then review what (if anything) is needed beyond then.
This smacks me as someone in the Cabinet listening uncritically to some civil service advice on what would be most bureaucratically convenient, and not thinking about the politics - which is their job.
Michael Howard said that one of the important jobs that the Home Secretary had was this -
After a major incident, such as a terrorist attack, a huge pile of policies would be pushed onto the Home Sec's desk. Ranging from the demented to the hard core fascist. Indefinite detention without trial at the whim of the Home Sec. was a favourite, apparently.
According to M. Howard, the role of home secretary was to tip the lot in the bin.
And he was widely seen as a right wing hardliner! Perhaps because of that he got more extreme proposals pushed his way?
It is indeed difficult to see why having extended the Coronavirus powers to September the Government won't seek to then extend them for another six months afterwards. The scientists will be getting nervous. They will be worrying about variants, and the possibility of vaccine effects wearing off. They will point to the vastly increased risks during winter, and use the very low levels illness/deaths in Summer 2020 as a warning not to get complacent. They will probably start highlighting the possibility of other illnesses, where having the powers would be good to have (what happens if flu comes back with a vengeance?). Etc etc. After all, it will "only be a precaution", but the Government will need the ability to act rapidly if required. "Delay costs lives".
60 odd letters to Graham Brady at that point.
Not so sure. The MPs will go where the voters go. My fear about this whole thing is not the this will be done in defiance of popular opinion. It is that illiberal measures are popular. Even if they need to be spun permanently as "temporary". We've seen how compliant the population have been over the last year, and how support for the Government goes up whenever they tighten up restrictions. This may be a temporary response to fear of Covid. But i'm not so sure. The Government have got a taste for what they can get away with and be popular. If MPs see figures showing that their voters agree with the Government, then they will ditch their supposed personal principles. If they ever really had any.
It is the fundamental problem with populists being in charge. They care little for what is right, only what might get them a little more popularity with those that like to think government should be about "common sense". If it was popular to kill the first born, then they might give it due consideration if it bought them a few more bricks in the Red Wall
LOL! Nice to have something to laugh at on these dark days.
In answer to your WTF...Tories being Tories
But he has a serious point. At least the 1922 Tories are starting to object to what this government are doing.
Where is Starmer? He can't wait to nod through more illiberal and never ending restrictions.
Starmer is a statist social democrat not a liberal, so backing lockdown and restriction extensions is what you would expect him to do.
Similarly there are plenty of authoritarian conservatives too, it is the Liberal Democrats and libertarians within the Tory Party and RefUK who you would expect to be most opposed to lockdown restrictions, not Labour
The elites really do assume that everyone has a smartphone and internet access. Millions don't have either. They (the people in charge) live in such a bubble.
You often bang this drum in the face of all the contrary evidence.
The vaccine passports would work like your other vaccine certificates, they can and do come with a paper option.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
Personally, I think the Government would have been far better advised to just seek an extension of the rules for 3 months (which would take us to 25th June, beyond big bang date) and then review what (if anything) is needed beyond then.
This smacks me as someone in the Cabinet listening uncritically to some civil service advice on what would be most bureaucratically convenient, and not thinking about the politics - which is their job.
Michael Howard said that one of the important jobs that the Home Secretary had was this -
After a major incident, such as a terrorist attack, a huge pile of policies would be pushed onto the Home Sec's desk. Ranging from the demented to the hard core fascist. Indefinite detention without trial at the whim of the Home Sec. was a favourite, apparently.
According to M. Howard, the role of home secretary was to tip the lot in the bin.
And he was widely seen as a right wing hardliner! Perhaps because of that he got more extreme proposals pushed his way?
It is indeed difficult to see why having extended the Coronavirus powers to September the Government won't seek to then extend them for another six months afterwards. The scientists will be getting nervous. They will be worrying about variants, and the possibility of vaccine effects wearing off. They will point to the vastly increased risks during winter, and use the very low levels illness/deaths in Summer 2020 as a warning not to get complacent. They will probably start highlighting the possibility of other illnesses, where having the powers would be good to have (what happens if flu comes back with a vengeance?). Etc etc. After all, it will "only be a precaution", but the Government will need the ability to act rapidly if required. "Delay costs lives".
60 odd letters to Graham Brady at that point.
Not so sure. The MPs will go where the voters go. My fear about this whole thing is not the this will be done in defiance of popular opinion. It is that illiberal measures are popular. Even if they need to be spun permanently as "temporary". We've seen how compliant the population have been over the last year, and how support for the Government goes up whenever they tighten up restrictions. This may be a temporary response to fear of Covid. But i'm not so sure. The Government have got a taste for what they can get away with and be popular. If MPs see figures showing that their voters agree with the Government, then they will ditch their supposed personal principles. If they ever really had any.
It is the fundamental problem with populists being in charge. They care little for what is right, only what might get them a little more popularity with those that like to think government should be about "common sense". If it was popular to kill the first born, then they might give it due consideration if it bought them a few more bricks in the Red Wall
This of course is the answer to the question: "Why on earth would the govt extend lockdown/legislation?" Because look at the opinion polls.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
I don't hate the comparison at all. If anything it's worse than you say. Then some MPs were trying to ignore a democratic vote. This time people have voted for this useless shower of authoritarians.
People are obsessing about flags and singing Britons never shall be slaves at the Proms while obediently agreeing to be slaves.
Daily temperature tests indeed.
They can fuck right off.
Vaccines are meant to be our way out of this. Not a tunnel into ever more restrictions and controls.
If any of that were to happen, then I agree entirely they can fuck off. And I would quit the party again, as I quit it the last time we had an authoritarian as party leader.
I simply do not believe it will happen. I might be in denial, but I just don't believe it is possible that will be done.
Restrictions to end 21/6, no ifs no buts. That's my line.
Or what? You will quit the party. Who cares. I quit the party last year and they seem to have managed to put it behind them and are going from strength to strength.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Where are you getting this from that this is what is going to happen?
Utterly inexcusable if it did happen and I've seen no government spokespeople say it will happen. I can't believe it will.
You seem to be reacting to what conspiracy theorists are saying will happen, not what anyone is actually saying will happen. Restrictions end 21/6 and to do otherwise will go down like a lead balloon.
Plenty of other articles suggesting that 2 metre social distancing will be back (note currently it's 1.5 metres) unless you do this.
We are getting the same kite-flying as before which was remarkably similar to what then was enacted. And some of it is coming from the PM. Of course maybe he doesn't know what is happening in his own government. That could be a possibility I suppose.
Nothing in that article says what you're saying, that distancing rules would still be required post 21/6.
Saying that pubs have the option to require vaccines, if they wish to do so, is not the same thing as saying its compulsory or that social distancing will be required.
Social distancing will be required until 21/6. After that though, they're pledged to remove it.
Elsewhere they have stated that the option will be either social distancing or vaccine passports/ blood tests etc. That is not a pledge to remove. That is a continuation of restrictions.
No-one has explained to me how a venue is supposed to show how it complies with, say, guidelines to get a vax passport for customers. Either it needs to keep records- great, your local boozer has your medical details - or it doesn't in which case what is the point.
And if you believe that any of this government's pledges mean a damn thing, well ......
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
I don't hate the comparison at all. If anything it's worse than you say. Then some MPs were trying to ignore a democratic vote. This time people have voted for this useless shower of authoritarians.
People are obsessing about flags and singing Britons never shall be slaves at the Proms while obediently agreeing to be slaves.
Daily temperature tests indeed.
They can fuck right off.
Vaccines are meant to be our way out of this. Not a tunnel into ever more restrictions and controls.
If any of that were to happen, then I agree entirely they can fuck off. And I would quit the party again, as I quit it the last time we had an authoritarian as party leader.
I simply do not believe it will happen. I might be in denial, but I just don't believe it is possible that will be done.
Restrictions to end 21/6, no ifs no buts. That's my line.
"Restrictions to end 21/6, no ifs no buts" - agreed, but when a lots of people say that they seem to exclude international travel!
Mr. JS, it's the same sort of people who think abolishing cash is a smart idea.
I would also like to give the Lib Dems some rare praise for their stance on this.
Stockholm Syndrome is rubbish.
Abolishing cash is a great idea.
It would also be a great victory in the war on drugs.
Simple rule: if you can't choose to live and exist without a smartphone (even if it's less convenient, and a tad more expensive) then you're not really free.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
Personally, I think the Government would have been far better advised to just seek an extension of the rules for 3 months (which would take us to 25th June, beyond big bang date) and then review what (if anything) is needed beyond then.
This smacks me as someone in the Cabinet listening uncritically to some civil service advice on what would be most bureaucratically convenient, and not thinking about the politics - which is their job.
Michael Howard said that one of the important jobs that the Home Secretary had was this -
After a major incident, such as a terrorist attack, a huge pile of policies would be pushed onto the Home Sec's desk. Ranging from the demented to the hard core fascist. Indefinite detention without trial at the whim of the Home Sec. was a favourite, apparently.
According to M. Howard, the role of home secretary was to tip the lot in the bin.
Wasn't he in favour of ID cards? Some liberal him.
I think I'll be voting for the LDs at the local elections, especially after the way they voted last night.
Yes, I'm giving it some thought too.
Likewise.
Ed Davey needs to get out of the traps and own this issue now. Move the party on from Brexit. Fantastic opportunity. Charles Kennedy would have taken it I rather suspect.
I think the less I hear from Ed Davey, though, the better.
So I've been invited for second Pfizer jab next week.
It was due at the end of April.
Hurrah for the EU playing silly buggers and me getting fully vaccinated sooner than planned as the NHS prioritise second jabs over first jabs.
Excellent news.
I am on holiday now. And what am I doing with my free time? Well apart from the sausage sandwich (on white bread with red sauce in case anyone has other, ridiculous, ideas) I am sitting here on effing PB.
This is 9am on Day 1. Dear god I realise as if I hadn't realised earlier how people who have been furloughed for a year must be suffering. To have stayed sane all this time will have required the most enormous expenditure of mental resilience.
This lockdown has to end.
The quiet desperation tales must be legion.
A year ago the public would not have considered allowing this more than a single minute longer than is absolutely necessary.
Yet here we are. Seemingly the public can't get enough of it according to focus groups.
1) we can't get away with this because we are not China 2) Ooh we can get away with this because Italy did 3) We'll say it's only to protect the NHS because the frit bovine hordes (all rights reserved) love the NHS 4) Ooh we can get away with it not just being about protecting the NHS 5) We'll say it's because we have the new variant bogeyman
A year ago the public would not have considered allowing this more than a single minute longer than is absolutely necessary.
Yet here we are. Seemingly the public can't get enough of it according to focus groups.
The polling is pretty clear that the impact is very divisive in the literal sense. Lockdown had made a third of th epopulation better off, and a third worse off, frequently reinforcing existing differences. I've seen an academic study which shows that people who commute to work (typically office workers) are saving more on petrol than they're losing in heating costs, while people who walk to work (typically retail staff and manual workers) are experiencing the opposite. Similarly, a third say they positively like lockdown - more time with the family, quieter roads and environment - and a third hate it.
None of us should extrapolate from our own feelings to assume we represent the majority.
The people threatening him need to be prosecuted. Now.
Agreed. There is a right to free speech, but not a right to threaten or incite actual violence.
I liked the suggestion after the Charlie Hebdo attacks that every paper in the free world should have put the cartoons on their front pages the next day. Every school in the country should be showing cartoons like this. Anyone who believes in freedom should be saying "I am Spartacus" and everyone who incites violence over that should be prosecuted.
FPT - The Liberal Democrats voting against the extension of the Covid Act is very significant - they should be doing much more of that if they want to be more relevant in future: advocating liberalism.
Would that make me more likely to vote for them?
Yes.
Me too. It's about time we had a party in this country that understands what a liberal democracy is and what it should and should not do.
As expected when I was poo-poohed on here yesterday over the direction of travel re vax passports, it now looks as if the government is not going to lift any restrictions at all post June but continue them in another guise. Social distancing will continue unless you can produce proof that you're healthy.
And how are hospitality venues supposed to comply with this? Ah yes - ask for proof. Very well and when some council busybody or policeman comes in to ask for proof of this how are they supposed to provide it? By showing the records they've kept, maybe? Great. Go to a pub and ask them to keep medical info about you safely.
The NHS is not overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to decrease. Vaccinations continue. These were meant to be the data points to rely on. Now the government is tearing these up and just introducing their own version of China's social credit system. Well, stuff that.
Yes, and the extension of the virus laws until September doesn't inspire any confidence that the government will ever give up these powers. Labour are equally to blame IMO, they've barely said anything about it and have voted in favour each time despite enough Tory MPs potentially willing to make the government pay attention and slim down the measures now that we're in the final stages of it.
You're going to hate the comparison but this is what it felt like being a leave supporter from 2016-2019 watching a majority of MPs try and find a way to override democracy. The whole "well the people voted for something but there's no majority in the house" attitude has come back. There's a powerlessness that I can't stand as this whole thing is starting to feel like a stitch up between government and opposition to deny us basic freedoms.
I don't hate the comparison at all. If anything it's worse than you say. Then some MPs were trying to ignore a democratic vote. This time people have voted for this useless shower of authoritarians.
People are obsessing about flags and singing Britons never shall be slaves at the Proms while obediently agreeing to be slaves.
Daily temperature tests indeed.
They can fuck right off.
Vaccines are meant to be our way out of this. Not a tunnel into ever more restrictions and controls.
If any of that were to happen, then I agree entirely they can fuck off. And I would quit the party again, as I quit it the last time we had an authoritarian as party leader.
I simply do not believe it will happen. I might be in denial, but I just don't believe it is possible that will be done.
Restrictions to end 21/6, no ifs no buts. That's my line.
"Restrictions to end 21/6, no ifs no buts" - agreed, but when a lots of people say that they seem to exclude international travel!
The people threatening him need to be prosecuted. Now.
Within minutes of May stepping down as Home Sec. emails were being sent out suggesting a "re-balancing" of the prosecution guidelines. To favour "community engagement".
When she stepped down as Prime Minister - same happened again.
The EU picking a fight with AZ was bizarre given we've only imported a million doses from the EU plants total I think - so proportionately our share from their output is less than their own....
Now Pfizer, J&J and Novavax are going to be ultracautious wrt anything EU related.
Mr. JS, it's the same sort of people who think abolishing cash is a smart idea.
I would also like to give the Lib Dems some rare praise for their stance on this.
Stockholm Syndrome is rubbish.
Abolishing cash is a great idea.
It would also be a great victory in the war on drugs.
Simple rule: if you can't choose to live and exist without a smartphone (even if it's less convenient, and a tad more expensive) then you're not really free.
Abolishing cash would be like abolishing books.
Of course you're free, smartphones give you even more liberty.
Lockdown has been a challenge yet thanks to technology I've been able to talk to friends all over the world for nothing.
Comments
Lab 39 (+1)
Con 36 (+7)
Ref 9 (-17 / Brexit)
Grn 7
LD 3 ( -1)
So if the Government thinks it is a good thing, but pubs that implement it are put at a competitive disadvantage to those who don't (which is obvious isn't it? - people who have been vaccinated but nevertheless consider themselves at great risk are not going to be heading to the forefront of those attending packed public venues, vaccine passport or no vaccine passport), then it's a small step to trying to make the whole thing mandatory.
It is true is will be extremely difficult to enforce. And costly for many businesses. And will not be applied with logical consistency across the hospitality sector. But something being difficult to enforce, is not an argument for expressing concern about things happening. We've seen clearly this Government's response to things being "difficult to enforce". It is to put in place legislation for massive fines - to therefore put everyone on the hook, just because you get unlucky. In fact in that case lack of enforcement by businesses could make things worse because they won't protect you by blocking you on the door. Do you want to live life permanently in fear that somebody could arbitrarily and by chance slap you with a £10k fine because your papers aren't in order (say you just so happen to have left your phone at home on a day you decide you want to pop into a pub?). These proposals are ultimately a potential threat to the vaccinated, not just those who voluntarily choose to opt out.
I'd be up for a national deal with parties standing down for each other in the absence of PR (with a quid pro quo at council level). But actually acting on that will get you expelled by both parties.
I do see a risk for the SNP that by their emphasis on Sindyref2 they will encourage some otherwise unthinkable Con-Lab tactical voting, on the basis that we might disagree on nationalisation of trains or whatever, but we agree on not breaking up the country (as an absolute SNP majority might lead to). There are some signs of that when you look at the details of multi-round preferences.
I believe the Conservatives back then ran with the slogan "set the people free" ?
After a major incident, such as a terrorist attack, a huge pile of policies would be pushed onto the Home Sec's desk. Ranging from the demented to the hard core fascist. Indefinite detention without trial at the whim of the Home Sec. was a favourite, apparently.
According to M. Howard, the role of home secretary was to tip the lot in the bin.
Now there's a slogan to run on.
In terms of the voter suppression in the thread header it can happen as Georgia has full GOP control of the state legislature and also has a GOP governor.
However Georgia was a bonus for Biden at least in 2020, the Democrats would still have won the White House without it, the key swing states were Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania where the GOP holds the state legislature but the Democrats have the governor
The good news is there is a growing number of Tory MPs who agree with us. That number will grow, rather than diminish, in the coming weeks as the data for hospitalisations and deaths falls off a cliff.
People are obsessing about flags and singing Britons never shall be slaves at the Proms while obediently agreeing to be slaves.
Daily temperature tests indeed.
They can fuck right off.
Vaccines are meant to be our way out of this. Not a tunnel into ever more restrictions and controls.
There are other, less invasive means of achieving similar results.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-56524550
And also an interesting related 12 month old thread from Monbiot, where we names him:
https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1333876799651123202
If the Govt say 'you can only open fully back to normal with Vax passport or app etc'.
I will simply nod and then let everyone in. A few nervous souls might be put off at my attitude. They'll come around when their irrational fear subsides.
This is how everything will go. Do you think pub landlords are going to be any different?
The deference to the state that exists in eg SK does not here.
It was due at the end of April.
Hurrah for the EU playing silly buggers and me getting fully vaccinated sooner than planned as the NHS prioritise second jabs over first jabs.
The Puritanism which lurks not far from the surface in Britain. That's why.
The evidence showed that pubs were way down the list of places which helped spread the disease. And yet throughout they have been targeted and not just with the same measures as everyone else but with spiteful extra ones like the ban on takeaway alcohol, even for those with off licences subject to conditions. And the lack of help for wet led pubs, for instance.
The combination of populism, Puritanism and authoritarianism is frightening.
I think that at present there are very large numbers of electors who are not to be permanently identified with any one party. If you vote Conservative in one election, it does not mean that you always will. This is a trap that young HY has fallen into.
Instead, I think, there are large nmbers of voters who will vote Con/Lib Dem, others who will vote Lab/Lib Dem and until recently there was a group that could easily vote UKIP/Con/Lib Dem. Also Green/Lib Dem/Lab of course. It depends on the election, who the candidates are and what the issues are.
In the Parliamentary constituency where I live there are no Labour councillors at all, and I cannot remember when there last was one.
Even today there have been several PB posters whom I would mentally file in the Conservative column, who have said that they are looking favourably on the Lib Dems for their opposition to exending Johnson's dictatorial powers.
It is indeed difficult to see why having extended the Coronavirus powers to September the Government won't seek to then extend them for another six months afterwards. The scientists will be getting nervous. They will be worrying about variants, and the possibility of vaccine effects wearing off. They will point to the vastly increased risks during winter, and use the very low levels illness/deaths in Summer 2020 as a warning not to get complacent. They will probably start highlighting the possibility of other illnesses, where having the powers would be good to have (what happens if flu comes back with a vengeance?). Etc etc. After all, it will "only be a precaution", but the Government will need the ability to act rapidly if required. "Delay costs lives".
For those who don't remember, accusations of "fascism" against Howard were standard from the progressive left....
https://youtu.be/aZjAAhti6YE
The upside of that, of course, is that if he backbenches make more noise and hassle than the civil service he'll defer to them instead - because it's easier.
Good luck with your cancer treatment.
The Biden Administration seems to have hired competent lawyers - at least relative to the last lot.
About time. What many failed to see and are now realising is that red lines can be ignored, and others' scoffed at. Until. Your own red lines are the ones being breached.
If I may be allowed to quote myself:
"People scream on here: "but lockdowns work. Go Government". As if that is the most important aspect to all this legislation.
And before they know it they are faced with some measure or other which breeches their own red lines and then they say "well they can't do that". But they already have. And then they look around frantically for Steve Baker of all people to come and rescue them/us all."
I can't help but applaud it.
A Tory NF Simpson ?
More broadly, I think the justice system (not the police) is now underfunded - and I'd focus effort there.
The Govt will have to accept that reopening will happen according to public pace. Not their far too wary timetable. If they want to keep their position in the polls they'll come around to it soon enough.
I am on holiday now. And what am I doing with my free time? Well apart from the sausage sandwich (on white bread with red sauce in case anyone has other, ridiculous, ideas) I am sitting here on effing PB.
This is 9am on Day 1. Dear god I realise as if I hadn't realised earlier how people who have been furloughed for a year must be suffering. To have stayed sane all this time will have required the most enormous expenditure of mental resilience.
This lockdown has to end.
In answer to your WTF...Tories being Tories
https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1375365656758124552
Saying that pubs have the option to require vaccines, if they wish to do so, is not the same thing as saying its compulsory or that social distancing will be required.
Social distancing will be required until 21/6. After that though, they're pledged to remove it.
It is the desire by some in government to link all records to them. And make all of those records accessible to all "customers" of the system. Such as the ability of a council employee to see your medical records, under the last attempt at such a system, when investigating misuse of the recycling bins......
https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1375370789961265154
The need to socially distance is the big issue, as you say. There are procedural solutions, but many councillors wont like them so it causes aggravation.
https://twitter.com/MirrorBreaking_/status/1375368526668693505
The extension of emergency powers to the autumn, when any sensible analysis suggests they should not, in all probability, be needed makes many of us queasy. I supported the January lockdown. I'm fine with the pretty cautious opening up plan. I want to see some very good reasons why legislation needs extending now. As we've seen before, steps can be taken quickly if needed, we don't need to be agreeing these powers now.
I refer the honourable gentleman to this which sums it up perfectly.
Some people come up with stupid ideas all the time. See every single Budget where wealth taxes etc are floated in the build up but they never actually happen because they're a stupid idea.
If every stupid idea everyone had ever floated actually happened we'd be in a very different country. This sort of nonsense will never see the light of day, or I will eat my hat and my membership at the same time.
Where is Starmer? He can't wait to nod through more illiberal and never ending restrictions.
In the past week I've enquired about booking two venues for events in June and July.
A capacious village hall for a local group event.
And a massive commercial venue for work.
The village hall run by local worry warts mandates windows open and masks on and distancing throughout.
The commercial venue is rightly leaving it up to organisers of business event.
Guess which one I booked?
Ed Davey needs to get out of the traps and own this issue now. Move the party on from Brexit. Fantastic opportunity. Charles Kennedy would have taken it I rather suspect.
He looks like an obese Paul Merton.
It does feel like the government are fighting the last war.
A year ago the public would not have considered allowing this more than a single minute longer than is absolutely necessary.
Yet here we are. Seemingly the public can't get enough of it according to focus groups.
Or do you just believe in the childish garbage about the "Enemy of my enemy...." ??
A structure has to be put in place in order to allow aviation, for which its needed. The only question is whether pubs are permitted to access that system if they want to do so, which the overwhelming majority will not want to do so.
It won't cost a penny to enforce if its optional. Businesses that don't want to enforce it won't do so, those that do will probably be the sort that already have professional doormen that Check ID on the way in already anyway.
Why would there be fines for an optional system? If its propietor's choice then there's no risk of fines.
But someone else's red line was back then and they thought the actions the government took were beyond what was justified given the circumstances. Were they right or wrong? Are you right or wrong? Is the key metric 10 lives or 10,000 lives? Irrelevant. It is the principle that is important. The government used and is using draconian powers to legislate (away) our freedoms.
Watch again that Tory MP and his pint of milk. Seems bonkers. Actually it is particularly acute and relevant.
A bit bloody late for them to be complaining now.
I simply do not believe it will happen. I might be in denial, but I just don't believe it is possible that will be done.
Restrictions to end 21/6, no ifs no buts. That's my line.
Similarly there are plenty of authoritarian conservatives too, it is the Liberal Democrats and libertarians within the Tory Party and RefUK who you would expect to be most opposed to lockdown restrictions, not Labour
I would also like to give the Lib Dems some rare praise for their stance on this.
Stockholm Syndrome is rubbish.
The vaccine passports would work like your other vaccine certificates, they can and do come with a paper option.
It would also be a great victory in the war on drugs.
No-one has explained to me how a venue is supposed to show how it complies with, say, guidelines to get a vax passport for customers. Either it needs to keep records- great, your local boozer has your medical details - or it doesn't in which case what is the point.
And if you believe that any of this government's pledges mean a damn thing, well ......
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56529868
Abolishing cash would be like abolishing books.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4095471.stm
And he also canvassed the idea in the 1990's.
He might put me off.
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1375377131438542850?s=20
2) Ooh we can get away with this because Italy did
3) We'll say it's only to protect the NHS because the frit bovine hordes (all rights reserved) love the NHS
4) Ooh we can get away with it not just being about protecting the NHS
5) We'll say it's because we have the new variant bogeyman
etc etc etc
None of us should extrapolate from our own feelings to assume we represent the majority.
I liked the suggestion after the Charlie Hebdo attacks that every paper in the free world should have put the cartoons on their front pages the next day. Every school in the country should be showing cartoons like this. Anyone who believes in freedom should be saying "I am Spartacus" and everyone who incites violence over that should be prosecuted.
When she stepped down as Prime Minister - same happened again.
Now Pfizer, J&J and Novavax are going to be ultracautious wrt anything EU related.
Heart of stone and stuff.
Lockdown has been a challenge yet thanks to technology I've been able to talk to friends all over the world for nothing.
Would you prefer to contact them via post?