Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

COVID vaccination – the extraordinary political divide in the US – politicalbetting.com

1235789

Comments

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,083
    edited March 2021
    40 people to track down one person to a post code, then many more to actually find them....it is why test and trace can never really work.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    I have explicitly said I believe his choice is fair. If he's not harming anyone else, go for it.

    Still quite odd, however, for the reasons kinabalu sketches. But that is not a criticism just an opinion
    He says he will get the jab in his own time if it's not govt-related.

    Perhaps he is sick to death and has had enough of the government regulating every single element of our lives including when we can walk outside our front door and who we can sleep with for the past year.
    Well it is a very odd way of drawing the line to not do what the government suggests, bearing in mind it is not mandating the jab. And when he is whigning about lockdown all the time and thus relying on everyone else to follow government suggestion and provision, so that he does not have to.

    He doesn't want to have 'the government' do it, fine, regardless of whether that makes sense in terms of it, you know, protecting him. But enough of this playing the hero as though its a moral failing of others to, non bindingly, decide that with all else we entrust in government, they can know if we've had a jab.
    We all draw lines wherever we want. He wants to make a stand on this. I don't have a problem with it.

    Is he playing the hero? Not that I've noticed.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited March 2021
    Scott_xP said:
    I knew Ciaran at Oxford. He certainly wouldn't say such a thing lightly.
  • ridaligoridaligo Posts: 174
    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    Indeed ... I'm not sure if Lord Sumption is persona non grata to PB these days but his interview on unherd lockdown-tv today makes for sobering viewing.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Maybe not the reaction the Sussexes were hoping for:

    https://twitter.com/megynkelly/status/1367879121041301507?s=20

    Harry and Meghan say they left the royal family because they had so much to offer the world, so much they could say. But apparently all they have to talk about is themselves

    Even if that is an unfair summary, certainly they appear to get a lot more attention about talking about themselves or other royals rather than the things they are presumably interested in.
    Prediction: they are going to end up massively unpopular. Always famous, but really disliked by many, as his boyish charm disappears, and her beauty fades. Because that is what they are trading in now. The Bitcoin of celebrity.
    That would be a shame, but I just can't see what the endgame here is for them - their status is because they are royals, and while there'll always be a market for 'the royals who slag off/speak the truth about the other royals', that's pretty exhausing and surely not what they want to spend their time on for decades to come? And that they want attention at all means they don't wish to just sit back and enjoy their wealth and family, so what's the next move?
    She's not a great actress, she got gigs by being very beautiful. So she will end up famous for being famous. A Kardashian

    He's not the brightest: what on earth can he do? Sadly, being a royal, after army service, was probably the best thing for him: he could exercise his charm doing good works - he did all that well. Now, he's kinda stuck with no role, apart from moaning about life, and being his wife's wingman

    It is sad
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Floater said:

    /

    Mango said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Under 60s seems now to be a thing (despite the wording still up on the NHS link).
    Just managed to book a vaccination for a week Saturday.

    Thankyou!!

    Just booked. Next Friday. Francis Crick Institute. I GET THE JABBB!!!!

    REALLY efficient. Took 3 minutes. So impressive
    Next Friday's vaccination numbers are going to be HUUUGE... :wink:
    Is it perhaps over 55s now? Because I've tried a couple of times and got knocked back.
    The link that was posted earlier is apparently accepting them now:
    https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-vaccination/book-coronavirus-vaccination/
    It still says over 60's?
    Ah, I was just going by what Leon implied earlier.
    You ignore that and push through. It worked for me. Got an appointment in seconds. Indeed I had a luxurious choice of jabbing centres, from Marylebone to Bloomsbury to the new Francis Crick Institute. I chose the last because it's an impressive building but I've never been inside

    Life is returning!
    I've just got mine done there literally one hour ago. Left arm upper, administered by a quietly charismatic young woman who oozed low key professionalism. Nothing dramatic about it. No fireworks at all. Didn't even have to take my tweed cap off. I nevertheless felt a sense of occasion, I truly did. What a result. It's been emotional and it's almost over.
    You were allowed to keep your cloth cap on? Were you allowed to take your whippet in with you too?
    My cloth cap is more Brideshead Ryder than Andy Capp - I like to imagine.
    It's Peeky Blinder or nothing......
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350
    MattW said:

    malcolmg said:

    This is the letter I was expecting to be released last night: https://gov.scot/binaries/conte

    Scott_xP said:
    Interesting legal document finally released
    https://twitter.com/ComeToGhana/status/1367852707344683013
    Highlight:

    https://twitter.com/ColSMal/status/1367864595101200388?s=20

    Wonder why they didn't release it earlier?
    Is this teeth pulled from Sturgeon, or the Salmond solicitor route?
    Swinney is providing them as part of the VONC on him I believe. But government
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,204

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Floater said:

    /

    Mango said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Under 60s seems now to be a thing (despite the wording still up on the NHS link).
    Just managed to book a vaccination for a week Saturday.

    Thankyou!!

    Just booked. Next Friday. Francis Crick Institute. I GET THE JABBB!!!!

    REALLY efficient. Took 3 minutes. So impressive
    Next Friday's vaccination numbers are going to be HUUUGE... :wink:
    Is it perhaps over 55s now? Because I've tried a couple of times and got knocked back.
    The link that was posted earlier is apparently accepting them now:
    https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-vaccination/book-coronavirus-vaccination/
    It still says over 60's?
    Ah, I was just going by what Leon implied earlier.
    You ignore that and push through. It worked for me. Got an appointment in seconds. Indeed I had a luxurious choice of jabbing centres, from Marylebone to Bloomsbury to the new Francis Crick Institute. I chose the last because it's an impressive building but I've never been inside

    Life is returning!
    I've just got mine done there literally one hour ago. Left arm upper, administered by a quietly charismatic young woman who oozed low key professionalism. Nothing dramatic about it. No fireworks at all. Didn't even have to take my tweed cap off. I nevertheless felt a sense of occasion, I truly did. What a result. It's been emotional and it's almost over.
    You were allowed to keep your cloth cap on? Were you allowed to take your whippet in with you too?
    My cloth cap is more Brideshead Ryder than Andy Capp - I like to imagine.
    It's Peeky Blinder or nothing......
    You need a large head to carry that look off. Mine is quite small.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350

    I see the video clip of the 50 ways tonnot answer /claim no knowledge of/couldn't remember.. from the evidence of the First Minister is doing the rounds. I have received it at least 5 times so far.... its difficult not to concede that she was being shifty evasive...

    indeed
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    I have explicitly said I believe his choice is fair. If he's not harming anyone else, go for it.

    Still quite odd, however, for the reasons kinabalu sketches. But that is not a criticism just an opinion
    He says he will get the jab in his own time if it's not govt-related.

    Perhaps he is sick to death and has had enough of the government regulating every single element of our lives including when we can walk outside our front door and who we can sleep with for the past year.
    hear hear
    That's the logic of a literal child. I don't like this one thing, so I will reject this other thing even though it helps me.

    There are a lot of things to push back on in relation to the laws and restrictions we have had imposed (notably vaccines are not one of those impositions). How does petulantly refusing a vaccine sooner because it comes from the government achieve that?

    Frankly it would make more sense to be an anti-vaxxer than be 'I'm for a vaccine, just not right now thanks, but also hurry up and remove all the restrictions, so no one else do what I am doing'.
    Not at all. It is trying to get some government out of your life, if that's your bag.

    As I said for the past year the government has mandated everything we are allowed to do or not do down to leaving the house and who we can sleep with.

    If people want to draw the line at the government mandating what goes inside their bodies then that's fair enough.
  • TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    You mean the Swedes are right, Toby Young is right, and the the government and the scientists will never let us out of lockdown down posts are valuable?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,236
    kamski said:

    German states seem to have decided that rising case numbers can be managed - the calculation seems to be that death and hospitalisation rates won't jump because the most vulnerable are being vaccinated and treatments are improving. Hospitals and ICU never looked like being overwhelmed, and people are fed up with the damage done to lives business and education, so there will be a gradual easing of lockdown measures rather than tightening, no matter that case numbers are rising.
    I'm not sure this is wise but it's understandable.
    Meanwhile lots of lives could probably be saved by concentrating on getting a first vaccine dose to as many people as possible and worrying about booster shots later.

    Unless something has changed, they are capped at 24:100 jabs to population ratio up to the end of March + deployment time.

    IMO that is playing with fire.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    ridaligo said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    Indeed ... I'm not sure if Lord Sumption is persona non grata to PB these days but his interview on unherd lockdown-tv today makes for sobering viewing.
    I will try to find it.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited March 2021
    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    The Chinese restrictions are, of course, qualitatively different. The UK Government wants to stop people going on sunshine holidays and bringing exotic varieties of Plague back with them. The Chinese Government wants to stop Hong Kongers running away screaming in terror and setting up loud and critical dissident networks overseas. In the UK we can call our country an open prison and attack the Government if we disagree with its rules, with a degree of confidence that said 'imprisonment' is temporary and the Government won't send its goons around to silence us if we annoy it. Things are somewhat different in China.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    malcolmg said:

    I see the video clip of the 50 ways tonnot answer /claim no knowledge of/couldn't remember.. from the evidence of the First Minister is doing the rounds. I have received it at least 5 times so far.... its difficult not to concede that she was being shifty evasive...

    indeed
    It is quite powerful, when you splice it all together. Clever

    https://twitter.com/NewLiviRSC/status/1367888736210522113?s=20
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350
    Yet another one

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    You mean the Swedes are right, Toby Young is right, and the the government and the scientists will never let us out of lockdown down posts are valuable?
    It is a contrarian view which constantly and aggressively questions measures taken by the government. On anything (it seems).

    I have said many times that while I don't agree with everything he says, it is absolutely vital that such voices exist.

    We have a bumbling fool as PM who happens also to err on the side of personal liberty. Imagine if Jeremy Corbyn or any one of so many other politicians was PM. These laws set the most extraordinary of precedents.

    I have said more than once over the past 12 months - ask Walter Wolfgang about how such laws can be misused.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,693
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Maybe not the reaction the Sussexes were hoping for:

    https://twitter.com/megynkelly/status/1367879121041301507?s=20

    Harry and Meghan say they left the royal family because they had so much to offer the world, so much they could say. But apparently all they have to talk about is themselves

    Even if that is an unfair summary, certainly they appear to get a lot more attention about talking about themselves or other royals rather than the things they are presumably interested in.
    Prediction: they are going to end up massively unpopular. Always famous, but really disliked by many, as his boyish charm disappears, and her beauty fades. Because that is what they are trading in now. The Bitcoin of celebrity.
    That would be a shame, but I just can't see what the endgame here is for them - their status is because they are royals, and while there'll always be a market for 'the royals who slag off/speak the truth about the other royals', that's pretty exhausing and surely not what they want to spend their time on for decades to come? And that they want attention at all means they don't wish to just sit back and enjoy their wealth and family, so what's the next move?
    She's not a great actress, she got gigs by being very beautiful. So she will end up famous for being famous. A Kardashian

    He's not the brightest: what on earth can he do? Sadly, being a royal, after army service, was probably the best thing for him: he could exercise his charm doing good works - he did all that well. Now, he's kinda stuck with no role, apart from moaning about life, and being his wife's wingman

    It is sad
    Apparently the monarchy is a 'construct' that prevented her doing an Oprah interview much earlier.

    https://twitter.com/CBSThisMorning/status/1367823422730952711
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,932
    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    Valuable? This is the person who refuses to get a vaccine on the NHS because it will put him on a list. Perfectly content to get one in the private sector, apparently, which still puts you on the same list.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited March 2021

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    The Chinese restrictions are, of course, qualitatively different. The UK Government wants to stop people going on sunshine holidays and bringing exotic varieties of Plague back with them. The Chinese Government wants to stop Hong Kongers running away screaming in terror and setting up loud and critical dissident networks overseas. In the UK we can call our country an open prison and attack the Government if we disagree with its rules, with a degree of confidence that said 'imprisonment' is temporary and the Government won't send its goons around to silence us if we annoy it. Things are somewhat different in China.
    Of course it's different intentions. Ours are wholly admirable and who could argue with them. But it's the same law.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    kamski said:

    German states seem to have decided that rising case numbers can be managed - the calculation seems to be that death and hospitalisation rates won't jump because the most vulnerable are being vaccinated and treatments are improving. Hospitals and ICU never looked like being overwhelmed, and people are fed up with the damage done to lives business and education, so there will be a gradual easing of lockdown measures rather than tightening, no matter that case numbers are rising.
    I'm not sure this is wise but it's understandable.
    Meanwhile lots of lives could probably be saved by concentrating on getting a first vaccine dose to as many people as possible and worrying about booster shots later.

    Do they know which variants they are dealing with? B.117 is not to be treated lightly.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    kle4 said:
    I really thought the EU had gone away and decided to STFU about vaccines, having realised there was nothing they could say that could make things better.

    However, it seemed more stupid counsel ultimately prevailed...



  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited March 2021
    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    I have explicitly said I believe his choice is fair. If he's not harming anyone else, go for it.

    Still quite odd, however, for the reasons kinabalu sketches. But that is not a criticism just an opinion
    He says he will get the jab in his own time if it's not govt-related.

    Perhaps he is sick to death and has had enough of the government regulating every single element of our lives including when we can walk outside our front door and who we can sleep with for the past year.
    hear hear
    That's the logic of a literal child. I don't like this one thing, so I will reject this other thing even though it helps me.

    There are a lot of things to push back on in relation to the laws and restrictions we have had imposed (notably vaccines are not one of those impositions). How does petulantly refusing a vaccine sooner because it comes from the government achieve that?

    Frankly it would make more sense to be an anti-vaxxer than be 'I'm for a vaccine, just not right now thanks, but also hurry up and remove all the restrictions, so no one else do what I am doing'.
    Not at all. It is trying to get some government out of your life, if that's your bag.

    As I said for the past year the government has mandated everything we are allowed to do or not do down to leaving the house and who we can sleep with.

    If people want to draw the line at the government mandating what goes inside their bodies then that's fair enough.
    Except that taking the vaccines removes the need for all the other constraints the government has mandated - if we all refused to be vaccinated, then the lockdowns and the government interference would be with us indefinitely. It's like being placed in protective custody, spending the whole time kicking and screaming, then refusing to take the key and leave at the end because you might have a brass allergy. It's nonsensical.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    ridaligo said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    Indeed ... I'm not sure if Lord Sumption is persona non grata to PB these days but his interview on unherd lockdown-tv today makes for sobering viewing.
    He`s superb. A couple of weeks ago I referred PBers to the interview he gave Paxman on the latter`s podcast "The Lock In" back in November/December. Highly recommended. You can tell that he is stunned by the public`s acceptance of constraints on their liberties - something that Sumption find extremely concerning (and Paxman clearly agrees with him).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    edited March 2021

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Maybe not the reaction the Sussexes were hoping for:

    https://twitter.com/megynkelly/status/1367879121041301507?s=20

    Harry and Meghan say they left the royal family because they had so much to offer the world, so much they could say. But apparently all they have to talk about is themselves

    Even if that is an unfair summary, certainly they appear to get a lot more attention about talking about themselves or other royals rather than the things they are presumably interested in.
    Prediction: they are going to end up massively unpopular. Always famous, but really disliked by many, as his boyish charm disappears, and her beauty fades. Because that is what they are trading in now. The Bitcoin of celebrity.
    That would be a shame, but I just can't see what the endgame here is for them - their status is because they are royals, and while there'll always be a market for 'the royals who slag off/speak the truth about the other royals', that's pretty exhausing and surely not what they want to spend their time on for decades to come? And that they want attention at all means they don't wish to just sit back and enjoy their wealth and family, so what's the next move?
    She's not a great actress, she got gigs by being very beautiful. So she will end up famous for being famous. A Kardashian

    He's not the brightest: what on earth can he do? Sadly, being a royal, after army service, was probably the best thing for him: he could exercise his charm doing good works - he did all that well. Now, he's kinda stuck with no role, apart from moaning about life, and being his wife's wingman

    It is sad
    Apparently the monarchy is a 'construct' that prevented her doing an Oprah interview much earlier.

    https://twitter.com/CBSThisMorning/status/1367823422730952711
    What on earth did she expect being part of the royal family ? It's a job that carries tremendous privelige, but also the utmost duty.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited March 2021
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Maybe not the reaction the Sussexes were hoping for:

    https://twitter.com/megynkelly/status/1367879121041301507?s=20

    Harry and Meghan say they left the royal family because they had so much to offer the world, so much they could say. But apparently all they have to talk about is themselves

    Even if that is an unfair summary, certainly they appear to get a lot more attention about talking about themselves or other royals rather than the things they are presumably interested in.
    Prediction: they are going to end up massively unpopular. Always famous, but really disliked by many, as his boyish charm disappears, and her beauty fades. Because that is what they are trading in now. The Bitcoin of celebrity.
    That would be a shame, but I just can't see what the endgame here is for them - their status is because they are royals, and while there'll always be a market for 'the royals who slag off/speak the truth about the other royals', that's pretty exhausing and surely not what they want to spend their time on for decades to come? And that they want attention at all means they don't wish to just sit back and enjoy their wealth and family, so what's the next move?
    Who cares
    Evidently lots of people since it will be all over the news whatever they do. May as well go with the flow.
    Lots of people do apparently care (Feck knows why)

    At the moment, the online Daily Merkle is running an average of ~15 articles on Meghan a day (there are 14 today on the "Duchess of Woke" and the Royals, I just counted).

    The damn interview airs on Sunday.

    Presumably Monday's Daily Mail really will break all previous records on Meghan-mania.

    My guess is 30 ranting articles -- minimum -- on Monday.

    Probably, there will be no other news for the whole week in the DM, as every pipsqueak journalist will be covering reaction to the Meghan interview, reaction to the reaction, reaction to the reaction to the reaction.

    There may not even be room for an article on Boris breaking the toilet seat at number 10, and Carrie purchasing a bespoke toilet seat made of 24 carat gold bullion.

    With a decade's supply of gold-leaf toilet rolls.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited March 2021
    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    Valuable? This is the person who refuses to get a vaccine on the NHS because it will put him on a list. Perfectly content to get one in the private sector, apparently, which still puts you on the same list.
    Fine. That's his decision. And it may well put him on "the list" or it may not. I don't know. That it should elicit such howls from PB is as I said an eye-opener. Then again, given the demographic (overwhelmingly comfortable with the status quo and successive governments who have enriched them) I can understand it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,355

    kle4 said:
    I really thought the EU had gone away and decided to STFU about vaccines, having realised there was nothing they could say that could make things better.

    However, it seemed more stupid counsel ultimately prevailed...



    Apparently, the Australians should just accept it is the mood music from Brussels.

    Not sure they quite get the national self image that the Australians have.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    The law that mandates those papers (The Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Wearing of Face Coverings in a Relevant Place and Restrictions: All Tiers) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2021) amends a set of regulations which themselves expire on 31 March. That is the crucial difference. If our elected representatives feel they are trampling on us unduly then it will not be renewed. I am not sure the situation in Hong Hong is amenable to review by a democratically elected body.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,212
    .

    Apparently there’s 2,000 group 6s just at my practice. But what I don’t understand is if they know the number, why cant they just batch export the NHS numbers to NHS England to be handled by the central database

    They want there £13.50 a jab or whatever it is they get!
    Many on here might be surprised at how mercenary some GP's can be.
    From conversations with someone I know employed as a GP receptionist, I am not in the slightest bit surprised.
  • Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?

    Thanks for finally making your position clear.
    There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
    I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
    It's such an odd thing to come into contact with one of the 5% of actual hardcore anti-vaxxers that doesn't post BTL on the Telegraph of Express.
    Dura Ace is antivax as well. Which is really odd as he seems of a scientific bent, and is obviously smart

    Intelligence is not correlated with anti-vaxxery, perhaps it is inversely correlated. Smart people are more likely to be paranoid? Hmm....
    It's not down to Dura Ace being anti-vax. He's just a typical Leeds United fan - arrogantly thinks his body is able to fight anyone, anything, anywhere, any time.

    I blame Don Revie.
    Sounds like a Jack Russell terrier; something for which to blame the clergy.
    We had a friend with a Jack Russell that got attacked by a Doberman.

    The Jack Russell castrated it.
    That takes some bollocks...

    Ah, my coat.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,083
    edited March 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Maybe not the reaction the Sussexes were hoping for:

    https://twitter.com/megynkelly/status/1367879121041301507?s=20

    Harry and Meghan say they left the royal family because they had so much to offer the world, so much they could say. But apparently all they have to talk about is themselves

    Even if that is an unfair summary, certainly they appear to get a lot more attention about talking about themselves or other royals rather than the things they are presumably interested in.
    Prediction: they are going to end up massively unpopular. Always famous, but really disliked by many, as his boyish charm disappears, and her beauty fades. Because that is what they are trading in now. The Bitcoin of celebrity.
    That would be a shame, but I just can't see what the endgame here is for them - their status is because they are royals, and while there'll always be a market for 'the royals who slag off/speak the truth about the other royals', that's pretty exhausing and surely not what they want to spend their time on for decades to come? And that they want attention at all means they don't wish to just sit back and enjoy their wealth and family, so what's the next move?
    She's not a great actress, she got gigs by being very beautiful. So she will end up famous for being famous. A Kardashian

    He's not the brightest: what on earth can he do? Sadly, being a royal, after army service, was probably the best thing for him: he could exercise his charm doing good works - he did all that well. Now, he's kinda stuck with no role, apart from moaning about life, and being his wife's wingman

    It is sad
    Apparently the monarchy is a 'construct' that prevented her doing an Oprah interview much earlier.

    https://twitter.com/CBSThisMorning/status/1367823422730952711
    What on earth did she expect being part of the royal family ? It's a job that carries tremendous privelidge, but also duty.
    Its like all thee idiots that decided to travel abroad in the middle of a pandemic and then complain they knew nothing of this hotel quarantine rule and it is against their human rights to be made to do it.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    I have explicitly said I believe his choice is fair. If he's not harming anyone else, go for it.

    Still quite odd, however, for the reasons kinabalu sketches. But that is not a criticism just an opinion
    He says he will get the jab in his own time if it's not govt-related.

    Perhaps he is sick to death and has had enough of the government regulating every single element of our lives including when we can walk outside our front door and who we can sleep with for the past year.
    hear hear
    That's the logic of a literal child. I don't like this one thing, so I will reject this other thing even though it helps me.

    There are a lot of things to push back on in relation to the laws and restrictions we have had imposed (notably vaccines are not one of those impositions). How does petulantly refusing a vaccine sooner because it comes from the government achieve that?

    Frankly it would make more sense to be an anti-vaxxer than be 'I'm for a vaccine, just not right now thanks, but also hurry up and remove all the restrictions, so no one else do what I am doing'.
    Not at all. It is trying to get some government out of your life, if that's your bag.

    As I said for the past year the government has mandated everything we are allowed to do or not do down to leaving the house and who we can sleep with.

    If people want to draw the line at the government mandating what goes inside their bodies then that's fair enough.
    Except that taking the vaccines removes the need for all the other constraints the government has mandated - if we all refused to be vaccinated, then the lockdowns would be with us indefinitely. It's like being placed in protective custody, spending the whole time kicking and screaming, then refusing to take the key and leave at the end because you might have a brass allergy. It's nonsensical.
    First sentence - Yes I agree NOW. But when lockdown measures were instigated there was no reason to think that vaccines would come quickly or even at all. Putting a liberal democracy on hold cannot be defended with no end in sight. The vaccines give us an end in sight.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,932
    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    Valuable? This is the person who refuses to get a vaccine on the NHS because it will put him on a list. Perfectly content to get one in the private sector, apparently, which still puts you on the same list.
    Fine. That's his decision. And it may well put him on "the list" or it may not. I don't know. That it should elicit such howls from PB is as I said an eye-opener. Then again, given the demographic (overwhelmingly comfortable with the status quo and successive governments who have enriched them) I can understand it.
    It elicits that response because the position isn't really logical. The benefits of getting vaccinated massively outweighs the risks, I cannot see any reason why someone would refuse beyond legitimate health concerns.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see the video clip of the 50 ways tonnot answer /claim no knowledge of/couldn't remember.. from the evidence of the First Minister is doing the rounds. I have received it at least 5 times so far.... its difficult not to concede that she was being shifty evasive...

    indeed
    It is quite powerful, when you splice it all together. Clever

    https://twitter.com/NewLiviRSC/status/1367888736210522113?s=20
    There's probably another fun one to be made, splicing jocular stuff about "her bestie Alec" with the death stares she gave when receiving a question she didn't want to answer....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Maybe not the reaction the Sussexes were hoping for:

    https://twitter.com/megynkelly/status/1367879121041301507?s=20

    Harry and Meghan say they left the royal family because they had so much to offer the world, so much they could say. But apparently all they have to talk about is themselves

    Even if that is an unfair summary, certainly they appear to get a lot more attention about talking about themselves or other royals rather than the things they are presumably interested in.
    Prediction: they are going to end up massively unpopular. Always famous, but really disliked by many, as his boyish charm disappears, and her beauty fades. Because that is what they are trading in now. The Bitcoin of celebrity.
    That would be a shame, but I just can't see what the endgame here is for them - their status is because they are royals, and while there'll always be a market for 'the royals who slag off/speak the truth about the other royals', that's pretty exhausing and surely not what they want to spend their time on for decades to come? And that they want attention at all means they don't wish to just sit back and enjoy their wealth and family, so what's the next move?
    Who cares
    Evidently lots of people since it will be all over the news whatever they do. May as well go with the flow.
    Lots of people do apparently care (Feck knows why)

    At the moment, the online Daily Merkle is running an average of ~15 articles on Meghan a day (there are 14 today on the "Duchess of Woke" and the Royals, I just counted).

    The damn interview airs on Sunday.

    Presumably Monday's Daily Mail really will break all previous records on Meghan-mania.

    My guess is 30 ranting articles -- minimum -- on Monday.

    Probably, there will be no other news for the whole week in the DM, as every pipsqueak journalist will be covering reaction to the Meghan interview, reaction to the reaction, reaction to the reaction to the reaction.

    There may not even be room for an article on Boris breaking the toilet seat at number 10, and Carrie purchasing a bespoke toilet seat made of 24 carat gold bullion.

    With a decade's supply of gold-leaf toilet rolls.
    It's a toxic but symbiotic relationship. The Mail needs her to sell newspapers, she wants to be in the newspapers to stay famous. It will continue. But as the 'royal' aspect dwindles, so will their fame and charisma. Exactly the same happened to the Abdicated King and Mrs Simpson, until they were a sad old couple living in Paris, with him yearning for home
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    The law that mandates those papers (The Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Wearing of Face Coverings in a Relevant Place and Restrictions: All Tiers) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2021) amends a set of regulations which themselves expire on 31 March. That is the crucial difference. If our elected representatives feel they are trampling on us unduly then it will not be renewed. I am not sure the situation in Hong Hong is amenable to review by a democratically elected body.
    The government can extend them for as long as it damn well pleases.

    And despite the new hero of PB (Steve Baker) no one can stop them. Until 2024. And even then I think part of @contrarian's lament is that Lab seem even more pro such laws.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see the video clip of the 50 ways tonnot answer /claim no knowledge of/couldn't remember.. from the evidence of the First Minister is doing the rounds. I have received it at least 5 times so far.... its difficult not to concede that she was being shifty evasive...

    indeed
    It is quite powerful, when you splice it all together. Clever

    https://twitter.com/NewLiviRSC/status/1367888736210522113?s=20
    Brutal
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,212
    edited March 2021
    kle4 said:

    Wow, they really are paranoid

    The city's heavily pro-Beijing electoral committee would get new powers over the parliament, or Legislative Council (LegCo).

    It's kind of incredible that the Chinese government felt the need to change what was already an electoral system heavily rigged in favour of the pro-Beijing camp.

    With only half the members of the territory's mini parliament directly elected, and the other half installed by political allies, why the change?

    Now, after the coming electoral "rebuild" is ushered in... there won't be even the pretence of democratic elections in Hong Kong.

    An election committee - controlled by Beijing - will not only screen all candidates standing in elections, but also directly appoint "a large proportion" of the Legislative Council.

    It will be almost impossible for any candidate advocating democratic change to be elected to office - and that's the way China's senior leadership likes it.


    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-56264117

    In all seriousness, why even bother with elections at this point? They aren't fooliing anyone, and they know they are't fooling anyone, so why the pretence?

    Probably still ticks some of the boxes on this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration#PRC's_basic_policies_regarding_Hong_Kong_(Annex_I)

    What's the Chinese for Potemkin ?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,355
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Maybe not the reaction the Sussexes were hoping for:

    https://twitter.com/megynkelly/status/1367879121041301507?s=20

    Harry and Meghan say they left the royal family because they had so much to offer the world, so much they could say. But apparently all they have to talk about is themselves

    Even if that is an unfair summary, certainly they appear to get a lot more attention about talking about themselves or other royals rather than the things they are presumably interested in.
    Prediction: they are going to end up massively unpopular. Always famous, but really disliked by many, as his boyish charm disappears, and her beauty fades. Because that is what they are trading in now. The Bitcoin of celebrity.
    That would be a shame, but I just can't see what the endgame here is for them - their status is because they are royals, and while there'll always be a market for 'the royals who slag off/speak the truth about the other royals', that's pretty exhausing and surely not what they want to spend their time on for decades to come? And that they want attention at all means they don't wish to just sit back and enjoy their wealth and family, so what's the next move?
    Who cares
    Evidently lots of people since it will be all over the news whatever they do. May as well go with the flow.
    Lots of people do apparently care (Feck knows why)

    At the moment, the online Daily Merkle is running an average of ~15 articles on Meghan a day (there are 14 today on the "Duchess of Woke" and the Royals, I just counted).

    The damn interview airs on Sunday.

    Presumably Monday's Daily Mail really will break all previous records on Meghan-mania.

    My guess is 30 ranting articles -- minimum -- on Monday.

    Probably, there will be no other news for the whole week in the DM, as every pipsqueak journalist will be covering reaction to the Meghan interview, reaction to the reaction, reaction to the reaction to the reaction.

    There may not even be room for an article on Boris breaking the toilet seat at number 10, and Carrie purchasing a bespoke toilet seat made of 24 carat gold bullion.

    With a decade's supply of gold-leaf toilet rolls.
    It's a toxic but symbiotic relationship. The Mail needs her to sell newspapers, she wants to be in the newspapers to stay famous. It will continue. But as the 'royal' aspect dwindles, so will their fame and charisma. Exactly the same happened to the Abdicated King and Mrs Simpson, until they were a sad old couple living in Paris, with him yearning for home
    The most ghastly part of the Diana saga I remember was the bodyguard(??) who worked to stop all the leaks to the press of the travel itinerary. There was one final leak he couldn't understand. Then he found Dana tipping off the press for which building back door they were going out of. So that she could be surrounded by a sea of photographers....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,932
    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Maybe not the reaction the Sussexes were hoping for:

    https://twitter.com/megynkelly/status/1367879121041301507?s=20

    Harry and Meghan say they left the royal family because they had so much to offer the world, so much they could say. But apparently all they have to talk about is themselves

    Even if that is an unfair summary, certainly they appear to get a lot more attention about talking about themselves or other royals rather than the things they are presumably interested in.
    Prediction: they are going to end up massively unpopular. Always famous, but really disliked by many, as his boyish charm disappears, and her beauty fades. Because that is what they are trading in now. The Bitcoin of celebrity.
    That would be a shame, but I just can't see what the endgame here is for them - their status is because they are royals, and while there'll always be a market for 'the royals who slag off/speak the truth about the other royals', that's pretty exhausing and surely not what they want to spend their time on for decades to come? And that they want attention at all means they don't wish to just sit back and enjoy their wealth and family, so what's the next move?
    She's not a great actress, she got gigs by being very beautiful. So she will end up famous for being famous. A Kardashian

    He's not the brightest: what on earth can he do? Sadly, being a royal, after army service, was probably the best thing for him: he could exercise his charm doing good works - he did all that well. Now, he's kinda stuck with no role, apart from moaning about life, and being his wife's wingman

    It is sad
    Apparently the monarchy is a 'construct' that prevented her doing an Oprah interview much earlier.

    https://twitter.com/CBSThisMorning/status/1367823422730952711
    What on earth did she expect being part of the royal family ? It's a job that carries tremendous privelige, but also the utmost duty.
    When will the royals learn that they shouldn't marry Americans? :D
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    You mean the Swedes are right, Toby Young is right, and the the government and the scientists will never let us out of lockdown down posts are valuable?
    It is a contrarian view which constantly and aggressively questions measures taken by the government. On anything (it seems).

    I have said many times that while I don't agree with everything he says, it is absolutely vital that such voices exist.

    We have a bumbling fool as PM who happens also to err on the side of personal liberty. Imagine if Jeremy Corbyn or any one of so many other politicians was PM. These laws set the most extraordinary of precedents.

    I have said more than once over the past 12 months - ask Walter Wolfgang about how such laws can be misused.
    It's not so much contrarian as illogical.

    He hates lockdowns (we all do) but he do what is the quickest route of lockdown and get a vaccine PDQ, but he'll get it private but not on the NHS because of the man, unaware that man will also be aware who gets the vaccine privately.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    kle4 said:
    I really thought the EU had gone away and decided to STFU about vaccines, having realised there was nothing they could say that could make things better.

    However, it seemed more stupid counsel ultimately prevailed...



    Apparently, the Australians should just accept it is the mood music from Brussels.

    Not sure they quite get the national self image that the Australians have.
    Australia and France should play rugger for the Vaccine Shield.

    At stake? 1,000,000 Pfizer shots...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    The law that mandates those papers (The Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Wearing of Face Coverings in a Relevant Place and Restrictions: All Tiers) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2021) amends a set of regulations which themselves expire on 31 March. That is the crucial difference. If our elected representatives feel they are trampling on us unduly then it will not be renewed. I am not sure the situation in Hong Hong is amenable to review by a democratically elected body.
    The point is that we have a set of democratic processes and checks and balances that we have all taken for granted. Here is a black swan that undoubtedly demanded some extraordinary measures. But the result has been that those democratic processes have been booted into touch. What recourse do we have right now or on the 31st March to change anything?

    The other day we were discussing the reaction to continued lockdown if cases remained high. That was a red line for many on PB "oh well they can't do that...if they do that then...ooh...I'll be so angry..." But had the govt kept to that, it would have saved lives.

    It's just different red lines and we are castigating @contrarian for his whereas we all have our own.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    Valuable? This is the person who refuses to get a vaccine on the NHS because it will put him on a list. Perfectly content to get one in the private sector, apparently, which still puts you on the same list.
    Fine. That's his decision. And it may well put him on "the list" or it may not. I don't know. That it should elicit such howls from PB is as I said an eye-opener. Then again, given the demographic (overwhelmingly comfortable with the status quo and successive governments who have enriched them) I can understand it.
    It elicits that response because the position isn't really logical. The benefits of getting vaccinated massively outweighs the risks, I cannot see any reason why someone would refuse beyond legitimate health concerns.
    He is not refusing it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    The Herald has taken all the new Salmondgate legal evidence, and pieced it together as an article. Startling. To say the least

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19140295.sturgeon-government-discounted-advice-concede-legal-fight-salmond/?ref=twtrec
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,932
    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    Valuable? This is the person who refuses to get a vaccine on the NHS because it will put him on a list. Perfectly content to get one in the private sector, apparently, which still puts you on the same list.
    Fine. That's his decision. And it may well put him on "the list" or it may not. I don't know. That it should elicit such howls from PB is as I said an eye-opener. Then again, given the demographic (overwhelmingly comfortable with the status quo and successive governments who have enriched them) I can understand it.
    It elicits that response because the position isn't really logical. The benefits of getting vaccinated massively outweighs the risks, I cannot see any reason why someone would refuse beyond legitimate health concerns.
    He is not refusing it.
    He's refusing it now, and isn't speed of the essence?
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,993
    Straw in the wind - in Thorniewood the strongly pro Indy independent candidate got 19%
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005
    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    It’s almost like a quarantine with some exceptions.
    Well, it IS very much like a quarantine with some exceptions, and I think we’re several hundred years too late to start complaining about such things during pandemics.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    You mean the Swedes are right, Toby Young is right, and the the government and the scientists will never let us out of lockdown down posts are valuable?
    It is a contrarian view which constantly and aggressively questions measures taken by the government. On anything (it seems).

    I have said many times that while I don't agree with everything he says, it is absolutely vital that such voices exist.

    We have a bumbling fool as PM who happens also to err on the side of personal liberty. Imagine if Jeremy Corbyn or any one of so many other politicians was PM. These laws set the most extraordinary of precedents.

    I have said more than once over the past 12 months - ask Walter Wolfgang about how such laws can be misused.
    It's not so much contrarian as illogical.

    He hates lockdowns (we all do) but he do what is the quickest route of lockdown and get a vaccine PDQ, but he'll get it private but not on the NHS because of the man, unaware that man will also be aware who gets the vaccine privately.
    Yes maybe. Maybe he has been driven mad by so much government. No idea. But it is his stand and he is entitled to make it and I find it disappointing that he is so ostracised by PB for doing so. As he has been throughout. Right up until there was an "oh shit" moment when it was thought that the govt would behave "illogically" by not bringing us out of lockdown when PB consensus thought it should and we all all of a sudden looked to Steve Baker as our one recourse to sanity.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    I have explicitly said I believe his choice is fair. If he's not harming anyone else, go for it.

    Still quite odd, however, for the reasons kinabalu sketches. But that is not a criticism just an opinion
    He says he will get the jab in his own time if it's not govt-related.

    Perhaps he is sick to death and has had enough of the government regulating every single element of our lives including when we can walk outside our front door and who we can sleep with for the past year.
    hear hear
    That's the logic of a literal child. I don't like this one thing, so I will reject this other thing even though it helps me.

    There are a lot of things to push back on in relation to the laws and restrictions we have had imposed (notably vaccines are not one of those impositions). How does petulantly refusing a vaccine sooner because it comes from the government achieve that?

    Frankly it would make more sense to be an anti-vaxxer than be 'I'm for a vaccine, just not right now thanks, but also hurry up and remove all the restrictions, so no one else do what I am doing'.
    Not at all. It is trying to get some government out of your life, if that's your bag.

    As I said for the past year the government has mandated everything we are allowed to do or not do down to leaving the house and who we can sleep with.

    If people want to draw the line at the government mandating what goes inside their bodies then that's fair enough.
    Except that taking the vaccines removes the need for all the other constraints the government has mandated - if we all refused to be vaccinated, then the lockdowns would be with us indefinitely. It's like being placed in protective custody, spending the whole time kicking and screaming, then refusing to take the key and leave at the end because you might have a brass allergy. It's nonsensical.
    First sentence - Yes I agree NOW. But when lockdown measures were instigated there was no reason to think that vaccines would come quickly or even at all. Putting a liberal democracy on hold cannot be defended with no end in sight. The vaccines give us an end in sight.
    This is also why people are choosing to put up with restrictions for a bit longer - because they believe that they're finite and have some confidence in the Government. We've seen what happens from the Czech Republic when confidence in a government's strategy collapses.

    Beyond that, restrictions will wear away naturally as vaccination removes most peoples' fear of the virus. I seem to recall reading about a study just the other day which indicated that about 40% of the over 80s had started disregarding the lockdown rules once they'd had their first jab. As we work our way down the age groups, and immunity spreads to younger and younger cohorts (and those left unvaccinated are at progressively lower risk) then we shall see a lot more of that sort of thing. A lot of people who have been forcing themselves to keep away from family and friends out of concern for catching Covid and passing it around will be visiting one another's homes for reunions once they've had the shot. Rules on household mixing will increasingly be ignored.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,236
    edited March 2021

    kle4 said:
    I really thought the EU had gone away and decided to STFU about vaccines, having realised there was nothing they could say that could make things better.

    However, it seemed more stupid counsel ultimately prevailed...



    Apparently, the Australians should just accept it is the mood music from Brussels.

    Not sure they quite get the national self image that the Australians have.
    Australia and France should play rugger for the Vaccine Shield.

    At stake? 1,000,000 Pfizer shots...
    That was the lie the Italian MP (?) was pushing on R4 this morning.

    Comical Dave has been desperately repeating it for over a week.

    It's apparently now also the fault of EU countries not setting up infrastructure.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    You mean the Swedes are right, Toby Young is right, and the the government and the scientists will never let us out of lockdown down posts are valuable?
    It is a contrarian view which constantly and aggressively questions measures taken by the government. On anything (it seems).

    I have said many times that while I don't agree with everything he says, it is absolutely vital that such voices exist.

    We have a bumbling fool as PM who happens also to err on the side of personal liberty. Imagine if Jeremy Corbyn or any one of so many other politicians was PM. These laws set the most extraordinary of precedents.

    I have said more than once over the past 12 months - ask Walter Wolfgang about how such laws can be misused.
    It's not so much contrarian as illogical.

    He hates lockdowns (we all do) but he do what is the quickest route of lockdown and get a vaccine PDQ, but he'll get it private but not on the NHS because of the man, unaware that man will also be aware who gets the vaccine privately.
    Yes maybe. Maybe he has been driven mad by so much government. No idea. But it is his stand and he is entitled to make it and I find it disappointing that he is so ostracised by PB for doing so. As he has been throughout. Right up until there was an "oh shit" moment when it was thought that the govt would behave "illogically" by not bringing us out of lockdown when PB consensus thought it should and we all all of a sudden looked to Steve Baker as our one recourse to sanity.
    Ostracised? He's having his idiocy pulled apart, there's a difference.

    I know for a fact people like him would have been defending Andrew Wakefield against the man.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    The Gov't has taken broadly sensible views on restrictions. We've never had the you literally can't leave your home measures that France and Spain implemented nor the madness that the GOP/Bolsanaro has subscribed to.
    Draconian measures to stop people going abroad right now are with very good cause.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,236
    If we are being Friday Afternoon, I just found the Scottish Govt Maths Course.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yqAaejuRn8&t=20s
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    It’s almost like a quarantine with some exceptions.
    Well, it IS very much like a quarantine with some exceptions, and I think we’re several hundred years too late to start complaining about such things during pandemics.
    Yes we should clap for it every Thursday at 6pm.

    As I have said I'm sure there are very good reasons for it. But it is an almighty restriction on our freedoms and everyone is cheering it through.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350
    sarissa said:

    Straw in the wind - in Thorniewood the strongly pro Indy independent candidate got 19%
    You wonder what result would be if Anas declared UDI and said Scottish Labour supported independence. Need to be in writing as they are lying toerags though.
  • malcolmg said:

    sarissa said:

    Straw in the wind - in Thorniewood the strongly pro Indy independent candidate got 19%
    You wonder what result would be if Anas declared UDI and said Scottish Labour supported independence. Need to be in writing as they are lying toerags though.
    Look Malcolm, given the actions of the leader of the SNP and First Minister, you need be clearer on who exactly the lying toerags you talk about are.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,207
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Maybe not the reaction the Sussexes were hoping for:

    https://twitter.com/megynkelly/status/1367879121041301507?s=20

    Harry and Meghan say they left the royal family because they had so much to offer the world, so much they could say. But apparently all they have to talk about is themselves

    Even if that is an unfair summary, certainly they appear to get a lot more attention about talking about themselves or other royals rather than the things they are presumably interested in.
    Prediction: they are going to end up massively unpopular. Always famous, but really disliked by many, as his boyish charm disappears, and her beauty fades. Because that is what they are trading in now. The Bitcoin of celebrity.
    That would be a shame, but I just can't see what the endgame here is for them - their status is because they are royals, and while there'll always be a market for 'the royals who slag off/speak the truth about the other royals', that's pretty exhausing and surely not what they want to spend their time on for decades to come? And that they want attention at all means they don't wish to just sit back and enjoy their wealth and family, so what's the next move?
    I don't think they are particularly wealthy: Harry's off the Civil List (or Sovereign Grant thingy), and Meghan's not working. My understanding is that there's a massive mortgage on their Santa Barbara property.

    They probably need to bring in $3-4m/year (before tax) to cover their expenses - and while they can probably do that fairly easily in the short term, can they manage it year after year after year?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    You mean the Swedes are right, Toby Young is right, and the the government and the scientists will never let us out of lockdown down posts are valuable?
    It is a contrarian view which constantly and aggressively questions measures taken by the government. On anything (it seems).

    I have said many times that while I don't agree with everything he says, it is absolutely vital that such voices exist.

    We have a bumbling fool as PM who happens also to err on the side of personal liberty. Imagine if Jeremy Corbyn or any one of so many other politicians was PM. These laws set the most extraordinary of precedents.

    I have said more than once over the past 12 months - ask Walter Wolfgang about how such laws can be misused.
    It's not so much contrarian as illogical.

    He hates lockdowns (we all do) but he do what is the quickest route of lockdown and get a vaccine PDQ, but he'll get it private but not on the NHS because of the man, unaware that man will also be aware who gets the vaccine privately.
    Yes maybe. Maybe he has been driven mad by so much government. No idea. But it is his stand and he is entitled to make it and I find it disappointing that he is so ostracised by PB for doing so. As he has been throughout. Right up until there was an "oh shit" moment when it was thought that the govt would behave "illogically" by not bringing us out of lockdown when PB consensus thought it should and we all all of a sudden looked to Steve Baker as our one recourse to sanity.
    Ostracised? He's having his idiocy pulled apart, there's a difference.

    I know for a fact people like him would have been defending Andrew Wakefield against the man.
    He has at every stage been ostracised for saying, at each step, why should the government do that? For whatever "good" reasons.

    And quite right that someone has.

    Don't make me roll out Benjamin Franklin here.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350
    edited March 2021

    malcolmg said:

    sarissa said:

    Straw in the wind - in Thorniewood the strongly pro Indy independent candidate got 19%
    You wonder what result would be if Anas declared UDI and said Scottish Labour supported independence. Need to be in writing as they are lying toerags though.
    Look Malcolm, given the actions of the leader of the SNP and First Minister, you need be clearer on who exactly the lying toerags you talk about are.
    Unfortunately they are all cheeks of the same arse.
    SNP leadership don't like minutes so be hard to prove
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Right team - it's Friday night and the Sipsmith isn't going to drink itself.

    Have a good weekend.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,932
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    You mean the Swedes are right, Toby Young is right, and the the government and the scientists will never let us out of lockdown down posts are valuable?
    It is a contrarian view which constantly and aggressively questions measures taken by the government. On anything (it seems).

    I have said many times that while I don't agree with everything he says, it is absolutely vital that such voices exist.

    We have a bumbling fool as PM who happens also to err on the side of personal liberty. Imagine if Jeremy Corbyn or any one of so many other politicians was PM. These laws set the most extraordinary of precedents.

    I have said more than once over the past 12 months - ask Walter Wolfgang about how such laws can be misused.
    It's not so much contrarian as illogical.

    He hates lockdowns (we all do) but he do what is the quickest route of lockdown and get a vaccine PDQ, but he'll get it private but not on the NHS because of the man, unaware that man will also be aware who gets the vaccine privately.
    Yes maybe. Maybe he has been driven mad by so much government. No idea. But it is his stand and he is entitled to make it and I find it disappointing that he is so ostracised by PB for doing so. As he has been throughout. Right up until there was an "oh shit" moment when it was thought that the govt would behave "illogically" by not bringing us out of lockdown when PB consensus thought it should and we all all of a sudden looked to Steve Baker as our one recourse to sanity.
    Ostracised? He's having his idiocy pulled apart, there's a difference.

    I know for a fact people like him would have been defending Andrew Wakefield against the man.
    He has at every stage been ostracised for saying, at each step, why should the government do that? For whatever "good" reasons.

    And quite right that someone has.

    Don't make me roll out Benjamin Franklin here.
    Right now he appears to be asking why the government is asking people to be vaccinated.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,397

    malcolmg said:

    sarissa said:

    Straw in the wind - in Thorniewood the strongly pro Indy independent candidate got 19%
    You wonder what result would be if Anas declared UDI and said Scottish Labour supported independence. Need to be in writing as they are lying toerags though.
    Look Malcolm, given the actions of the leader of the SNP and First Minister, you need be clearer on who exactly the lying toerags you talk about are.
    All of them - they are politicians after all.

  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    You mean the Swedes are right, Toby Young is right, and the the government and the scientists will never let us out of lockdown down posts are valuable?
    It is a contrarian view which constantly and aggressively questions measures taken by the government. On anything (it seems).

    I have said many times that while I don't agree with everything he says, it is absolutely vital that such voices exist.

    We have a bumbling fool as PM who happens also to err on the side of personal liberty. Imagine if Jeremy Corbyn or any one of so many other politicians was PM. These laws set the most extraordinary of precedents.

    I have said more than once over the past 12 months - ask Walter Wolfgang about how such laws can be misused.
    It's not so much contrarian as illogical.

    He hates lockdowns (we all do) but he do what is the quickest route of lockdown and get a vaccine PDQ, but he'll get it private but not on the NHS because of the man, unaware that man will also be aware who gets the vaccine privately.
    Yes maybe. Maybe he has been driven mad by so much government. No idea. But it is his stand and he is entitled to make it and I find it disappointing that he is so ostracised by PB for doing so. As he has been throughout. Right up until there was an "oh shit" moment when it was thought that the govt would behave "illogically" by not bringing us out of lockdown when PB consensus thought it should and we all all of a sudden looked to Steve Baker as our one recourse to sanity.
    Ostracised? He's having his idiocy pulled apart, there's a difference.

    I know for a fact people like him would have been defending Andrew Wakefield against the man.
    He has at every stage been ostracised for saying, at each step, why should the government do that? For whatever "good" reasons.

    And quite right that someone has.

    Don't make me roll out Benjamin Franklin here.
    Being a slave owner is good for democracy?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350
    Things are looking grim TUD, this is like Custer's last stand now. We can forget referendums for a while unless something incredible happens in the next few weeks.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    It’s almost like a quarantine with some exceptions.
    Well, it IS very much like a quarantine with some exceptions, and I think we’re several hundred years too late to start complaining about such things during pandemics.
    Yes we should clap for it every Thursday at 6pm.

    As I have said I'm sure there are very good reasons for it. But it is an almighty restriction on our freedoms and everyone is cheering it through.
    Do you think that the LibDems should be very vocal about the loss of liberty aspects???
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    TOPPING said:



    The government can extend them for as long as it damn well pleases.

    And despite the new hero of PB (Steve Baker) no one can stop them. Until 2024. And even then I think part of @contrarian's lament is that Lab seem even more pro such laws.

    No. These regulations can be stopped by either (a) Parliament or (b) the Courts.

    This is secondary legislation, not primary, signed into law by the Secretary of State under sections 45C(1), (3)(c) and (4)(d), 45F(2) and 45P(2) of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984. Secondary legislation is judicially reviewable. If the secondary legislation mandating these forms exceeds the remit put on it by primary legislation then a High Court judge can strike it down.

    The international travel provisions are in section 45B but, interestingly, the SoS appears instead to have made the regulations under 45C. 45C says the "appropriate Minister may by regulations make provision for the purpose of preventing, protecting against, controlling or providing a public health response to the incidence or spread of infection or contamination in England and Wales (whether from risks originating there or elsewhere)." So, if there is no such risk, then the decision of the SoS may be challenged as being, perhaps, Wednesdbury unreasonable, of for another reason amenable to judicial review, before the High Court. If could even be challenged under that last resort of the desperate advocate, the Human Right Act, if necessary.

    This is not ideal - but neither is it yet 1984.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,355
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Maybe not the reaction the Sussexes were hoping for:

    https://twitter.com/megynkelly/status/1367879121041301507?s=20

    Harry and Meghan say they left the royal family because they had so much to offer the world, so much they could say. But apparently all they have to talk about is themselves

    Even if that is an unfair summary, certainly they appear to get a lot more attention about talking about themselves or other royals rather than the things they are presumably interested in.
    Prediction: they are going to end up massively unpopular. Always famous, but really disliked by many, as his boyish charm disappears, and her beauty fades. Because that is what they are trading in now. The Bitcoin of celebrity.
    That would be a shame, but I just can't see what the endgame here is for them - their status is because they are royals, and while there'll always be a market for 'the royals who slag off/speak the truth about the other royals', that's pretty exhausing and surely not what they want to spend their time on for decades to come? And that they want attention at all means they don't wish to just sit back and enjoy their wealth and family, so what's the next move?
    I don't think they are particularly wealthy: Harry's off the Civil List (or Sovereign Grant thingy), and Meghan's not working. My understanding is that there's a massive mortgage on their Santa Barbara property.

    They probably need to bring in $3-4m/year (before tax) to cover their expenses - and while they can probably do that fairly easily in the short term, can they manage it year after year after year?
    Harry's got an inheritance from Diana and she must have residuals from Suits.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    You mean the Swedes are right, Toby Young is right, and the the government and the scientists will never let us out of lockdown down posts are valuable?
    It is a contrarian view which constantly and aggressively questions measures taken by the government. On anything (it seems).

    I have said many times that while I don't agree with everything he says, it is absolutely vital that such voices exist.

    We have a bumbling fool as PM who happens also to err on the side of personal liberty. Imagine if Jeremy Corbyn or any one of so many other politicians was PM. These laws set the most extraordinary of precedents.

    I have said more than once over the past 12 months - ask Walter Wolfgang about how such laws can be misused.
    It's not so much contrarian as illogical.

    He hates lockdowns (we all do) but he do what is the quickest route of lockdown and get a vaccine PDQ, but he'll get it private but not on the NHS because of the man, unaware that man will also be aware who gets the vaccine privately.
    Yes maybe. Maybe he has been driven mad by so much government. No idea. But it is his stand and he is entitled to make it and I find it disappointing that he is so ostracised by PB for doing so. As he has been throughout. Right up until there was an "oh shit" moment when it was thought that the govt would behave "illogically" by not bringing us out of lockdown when PB consensus thought it should and we all all of a sudden looked to Steve Baker as our one recourse to sanity.
    Ostracised? He's having his idiocy pulled apart, there's a difference.

    I know for a fact people like him would have been defending Andrew Wakefield against the man.
    It is not inconsistent to think simultaneously:

    - that there has been insufficient rationale and transparency of the costs and benefits of each particular non-pharmaceutical intervention made in the last year,
    - that given the scale of the social and economic restrictions, schemes like furlough and no-questions-asked state backed business loans are both economically and morally essential,
    - that the vaccine rollout is something to be joyously celebrated both individually and as a society and that it's a bit odd not to accept your appointment as soon as possible

    I think contrarian's issues stem from the first bullet. Not to put words in his mouth but he thinks that lockdown has been a gross over-reach, undemocratic, possibly counterproductive by its own metrics. I've got huge sympathy with this view. But that doesn't mean you throw out the rest.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    You mean the Swedes are right, Toby Young is right, and the the government and the scientists will never let us out of lockdown down posts are valuable?
    It is a contrarian view which constantly and aggressively questions measures taken by the government. On anything (it seems).

    I have said many times that while I don't agree with everything he says, it is absolutely vital that such voices exist.

    We have a bumbling fool as PM who happens also to err on the side of personal liberty. Imagine if Jeremy Corbyn or any one of so many other politicians was PM. These laws set the most extraordinary of precedents.

    I have said more than once over the past 12 months - ask Walter Wolfgang about how such laws can be misused.
    It's not so much contrarian as illogical.

    He hates lockdowns (we all do) but he do what is the quickest route of lockdown and get a vaccine PDQ, but he'll get it private but not on the NHS because of the man, unaware that man will also be aware who gets the vaccine privately.
    Yes maybe. Maybe he has been driven mad by so much government. No idea. But it is his stand and he is entitled to make it and I find it disappointing that he is so ostracised by PB for doing so. As he has been throughout. Right up until there was an "oh shit" moment when it was thought that the govt would behave "illogically" by not bringing us out of lockdown when PB consensus thought it should and we all all of a sudden looked to Steve Baker as our one recourse to sanity.
    Ostracised? He's having his idiocy pulled apart, there's a difference.

    I know for a fact people like him would have been defending Andrew Wakefield against the man.
    He has at every stage been ostracised for saying, at each step, why should the government do that? For whatever "good" reasons.

    And quite right that someone has.

    Don't make me roll out Benjamin Franklin here.
    Being a slave owner is good for democracy?
    Ha! His liberty/safety quote.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    TOPPING said:

    ridaligo said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    Indeed ... I'm not sure if Lord Sumption is persona non grata to PB these days but his interview on unherd lockdown-tv today makes for sobering viewing.
    I will try to find it.
    https://unherd.com/2021/03/lord-sumption-civil-disobedience-has-begun/
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    ridaligo said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    Indeed ... I'm not sure if Lord Sumption is persona non grata to PB these days but his interview on unherd lockdown-tv today makes for sobering viewing.
    I will try to find it.
    https://unherd.com/2021/03/lord-sumption-civil-disobedience-has-begun/
    Great thanks
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    It’s almost like a quarantine with some exceptions.
    Well, it IS very much like a quarantine with some exceptions, and I think we’re several hundred years too late to start complaining about such things during pandemics.
    Yes we should clap for it every Thursday at 6pm.

    As I have said I'm sure there are very good reasons for it. But it is an almighty restriction on our freedoms and everyone is cheering it through.
    Do you think that the LibDems should be very vocal about the loss of liberty aspects???
    Yes. As per @RochdalePioneers.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    It’s almost like a quarantine with some exceptions.
    Well, it IS very much like a quarantine with some exceptions, and I think we’re several hundred years too late to start complaining about such things during pandemics.
    Yes we should clap for it every Thursday at 6pm.

    As I have said I'm sure there are very good reasons for it. But it is an almighty restriction on our freedoms and everyone is cheering it through.
    Would you say that it was wrong of the authorities of the time to restrict Mary Mallon’s freedom to work as a cook?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,207
    The whole saga is ridiculous. Both Airbus and Boeing receive massive subsidies, and then each complains the ones the other recieves.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    Valuable? This is the person who refuses to get a vaccine on the NHS because it will put him on a list. Perfectly content to get one in the private sector, apparently, which still puts you on the same list.
    Fine. That's his decision. And it may well put him on "the list" or it may not. I don't know. That it should elicit such howls from PB is as I said an eye-opener. Then again, given the demographic (overwhelmingly comfortable with the status quo and successive governments who have enriched them) I can understand it.
    I suspect the howls are more due to the stuff he has posted over and over despite it being debunked thoroughly like Sunetra gupta's claims that the ifr was only 0.1%. Which could be disproved easily as down to deaths already it could be shown that more people in the country had covid than lived here.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:



    The government can extend them for as long as it damn well pleases.

    And despite the new hero of PB (Steve Baker) no one can stop them. Until 2024. And even then I think part of @contrarian's lament is that Lab seem even more pro such laws.

    No. These regulations can be stopped by either (a) Parliament or (b) the Courts.

    This is secondary legislation, not primary, signed into law by the Secretary of State under sections 45C(1), (3)(c) and (4)(d), 45F(2) and 45P(2) of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984. Secondary legislation is judicially reviewable. If the secondary legislation mandating these forms exceeds the remit put on it by primary legislation then a High Court judge can strike it down.

    The international travel provisions are in section 45B but, interestingly, the SoS appears instead to have made the regulations under 45C. 45C says the "appropriate Minister may by regulations make provision for the purpose of preventing, protecting against, controlling or providing a public health response to the incidence or spread of infection or contamination in England and Wales (whether from risks originating there or elsewhere)." So, if there is no such risk, then the decision of the SoS may be challenged as being, perhaps, Wednesdbury unreasonable, of for another reason amenable to judicial review, before the High Court. If could even be challenged under that last resort of the desperate advocate, the Human Right Act, if necessary.

    This is not ideal - but neither is it yet 1984.
    Thanks for that. No true. But with a huge majority there's a lot the govt *can* do.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    TOPPING said:

    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    ridaligo said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    Indeed ... I'm not sure if Lord Sumption is persona non grata to PB these days but his interview on unherd lockdown-tv today makes for sobering viewing.
    I will try to find it.
    https://unherd.com/2021/03/lord-sumption-civil-disobedience-has-begun/
    Great thanks
    Sums it up for me:

    “I regard myself as a liberal with a small L. Until the Covid outbreak, that was a very middle of the road position to be in. Since the outbreak, it’s become controversial, even in some people’s minds extreme. This is, I think, some indication of how far our national conversation has moved.”
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,617
    Has any GOP politician come out as an anti-vaxxer ?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,207
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    You mean the Swedes are right, Toby Young is right, and the the government and the scientists will never let us out of lockdown down posts are valuable?
    It is a contrarian view which constantly and aggressively questions measures taken by the government. On anything (it seems).

    I have said many times that while I don't agree with everything he says, it is absolutely vital that such voices exist.

    We have a bumbling fool as PM who happens also to err on the side of personal liberty. Imagine if Jeremy Corbyn or any one of so many other politicians was PM. These laws set the most extraordinary of precedents.

    I have said more than once over the past 12 months - ask Walter Wolfgang about how such laws can be misused.
    It's not so much contrarian as illogical.

    He hates lockdowns (we all do) but he do what is the quickest route of lockdown and get a vaccine PDQ, but he'll get it private but not on the NHS because of the man, unaware that man will also be aware who gets the vaccine privately.
    Yes maybe. Maybe he has been driven mad by so much government. No idea. But it is his stand and he is entitled to make it and I find it disappointing that he is so ostracised by PB for doing so. As he has been throughout. Right up until there was an "oh shit" moment when it was thought that the govt would behave "illogically" by not bringing us out of lockdown when PB consensus thought it should and we all all of a sudden looked to Steve Baker as our one recourse to sanity.
    Firstly, he's not 'ostracised'.

    Secondly, we take the piss out of him because he believes the government wants to keep us locked down forever because... hey, look a dead squirrel.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Pagan2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    Valuable? This is the person who refuses to get a vaccine on the NHS because it will put him on a list. Perfectly content to get one in the private sector, apparently, which still puts you on the same list.
    Fine. That's his decision. And it may well put him on "the list" or it may not. I don't know. That it should elicit such howls from PB is as I said an eye-opener. Then again, given the demographic (overwhelmingly comfortable with the status quo and successive governments who have enriched them) I can understand it.
    I suspect the howls are more due to the stuff he has posted over and over despite it being debunked thoroughly like Sunetra gupta's claims that the ifr was only 0.1%. Which could be disproved easily as down to deaths already it could be shown that more people in the country had covid than lived here.
    Perhaps. That hasn't been his central thrust though.

    And now bon nuit to all.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    TOPPING said:

    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    It’s almost like a quarantine with some exceptions.
    Well, it IS very much like a quarantine with some exceptions, and I think we’re several hundred years too late to start complaining about such things during pandemics.
    Yes we should clap for it every Thursday at 6pm.

    As I have said I'm sure there are very good reasons for it. But it is an almighty restriction on our freedoms and everyone is cheering it through.
    Do you think that the LibDems should be very vocal about the loss of liberty aspects???
    Yes. As per @RochdalePioneers.
    RP can go a lead the LDs as far as I`m concerned - a fat lot of good the others are doing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,212
    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:



    The government can extend them for as long as it damn well pleases.

    And despite the new hero of PB (Steve Baker) no one can stop them. Until 2024. And even then I think part of @contrarian's lament is that Lab seem even more pro such laws.

    No. These regulations can be stopped by either (a) Parliament or (b) the Courts.

    This is secondary legislation, not primary, signed into law by the Secretary of State under sections 45C(1), (3)(c) and (4)(d), 45F(2) and 45P(2) of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984. Secondary legislation is judicially reviewable. If the secondary legislation mandating these forms exceeds the remit put on it by primary legislation then a High Court judge can strike it down.

    The international travel provisions are in section 45B but, interestingly, the SoS appears instead to have made the regulations under 45C. 45C says the "appropriate Minister may by regulations make provision for the purpose of preventing, protecting against, controlling or providing a public health response to the incidence or spread of infection or contamination in England and Wales (whether from risks originating there or elsewhere)." So, if there is no such risk, then the decision of the SoS may be challenged as being, perhaps, Wednesdbury unreasonable, of for another reason amenable to judicial review, before the High Court. If could even be challenged under that last resort of the desperate advocate, the Human Right Act, if necessary.

    This is not ideal - but neither is it yet 1984.
    And much the same people complaining of the very temporary indeed travel restrictions seem quite unfazed by our loss of freedom of movement within the EU.
    Which is, of course, another trade off, but a permanent one.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    On exit travel forms.

    Several years ago when thousands of young Brits were flocking to ISIS Land, I floated in the pub the concept of exit visas for any British citizen or resident wanting to make the journey to Syria. Justifying why the journey was being made and being prepared to be considered an enemy of the state if you travelled there illegally, with all the consequences that implies. I was rounded on as being something close to a Nazi for suggesting it. Amazing how far the Overton window can shift when a problem gets into people's lives rather than someone else's.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited March 2021
    Duplicate
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,204

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Maybe not the reaction the Sussexes were hoping for:

    https://twitter.com/megynkelly/status/1367879121041301507?s=20

    Harry and Meghan say they left the royal family because they had so much to offer the world, so much they could say. But apparently all they have to talk about is themselves

    Even if that is an unfair summary, certainly they appear to get a lot more attention about talking about themselves or other royals rather than the things they are presumably interested in.
    Prediction: they are going to end up massively unpopular. Always famous, but really disliked by many, as his boyish charm disappears, and her beauty fades. Because that is what they are trading in now. The Bitcoin of celebrity.
    That would be a shame, but I just can't see what the endgame here is for them - their status is because they are royals, and while there'll always be a market for 'the royals who slag off/speak the truth about the other royals', that's pretty exhausing and surely not what they want to spend their time on for decades to come? And that they want attention at all means they don't wish to just sit back and enjoy their wealth and family, so what's the next move?
    Who cares
    Evidently lots of people since it will be all over the news whatever they do. May as well go with the flow.
    Lots of people do apparently care (Feck knows why)

    At the moment, the online Daily Merkle is running an average of ~15 articles on Meghan a day (there are 14 today on the "Duchess of Woke" and the Royals, I just counted).

    The damn interview airs on Sunday.

    Presumably Monday's Daily Mail really will break all previous records on Meghan-mania.

    My guess is 30 ranting articles -- minimum -- on Monday.

    Probably, there will be no other news for the whole week in the DM, as every pipsqueak journalist will be covering reaction to the Meghan interview, reaction to the reaction, reaction to the reaction to the reaction.

    There may not even be room for an article on Boris breaking the toilet seat at number 10, and Carrie purchasing a bespoke toilet seat made of 24 carat gold bullion.

    With a decade's supply of gold-leaf toilet rolls.
    Meghan has become a battleground of great intensity in the War on Woke. You must love or hate her if you wish to be a participant. No room for who cares. That the other side hates her requires you to love her, and vice versa. Take me, for example. I do not in truth, just between the two of us, have much of an opinion either way about her - but I love her.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,212
    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    It’s almost like a quarantine with some exceptions.
    Well, it IS very much like a quarantine with some exceptions, and I think we’re several hundred years too late to start complaining about such things during pandemics.
    Yes we should clap for it every Thursday at 6pm.

    As I have said I'm sure there are very good reasons for it. But it is an almighty restriction on our freedoms and everyone is cheering it through.
    Do you think that the LibDems should be very vocal about the loss of liberty aspects???
    By the time they've worked that one out, the restrictions will have been lifted...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited March 2021
    Duplicate
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited March 2021
    Duplicate
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Have been, er, busy today so missed the @contrarian shenanigans.

    Whatever the merits of his position, I continually find it interesting if not disappointing that there is such instant animosity and dismissal of his views. He is entitled not to want a jab because that's the country we live in. Or used to.

    How we all laughed and pointed fingers when the Chinese announced that people wouldn't be allowed to leave HK and lo and behold our govt is making us fill out forms before we go abroad to see if we are going when it's not allowed. Just ponder that. Today we can't go to see our dying parents at home. By law.

    Ponder also the year of unprecedented restrictions of liberty, the damage done to so many physically, psychologically and economically by the govt.

    Now, there are good reasons for all of it. But for PB, that group of independent, free-thinking types, the falling in behind the government's every move has been an eye-opener.

    Everyone has their red lines. @contrarian has his and others have theirs. Some had theirs tested the other day when it was mooted that restrictions would be based on cases and lockdown wouldn't end until these were low. In the end the govt has now set a date when all restrictions will be lifted. But if it hadn't, then that would have been cheered by many on here also.

    You write that, but isn't it much more likely to be a phone app ?
    It's a fine for leaving the country for the wrong reasons.
    I remember Farage mooching about the "Government demanding 'papers' when in fact it would likely be an ID card that was needed.
    I get the feeling that forms/papers are used by people wanting to mentally invoke the Ordnungspolizei trope.
    Phrase it how you want I'm not bothered. It is registering to leave the country. Something that we derided the Chinese for doing just days ago. In the UK now, most people don't bat an eyelid.

    That is why @contrarian's posts are so valuable.
    You mean the Swedes are right, Toby Young is right, and the the government and the scientists will never let us out of lockdown down posts are valuable?
    It is a contrarian view which constantly and aggressively questions measures taken by the government. On anything (it seems).

    I have said many times that while I don't agree with everything he says, it is absolutely vital that such voices exist.

    We have a bumbling fool as PM who happens also to err on the side of personal liberty. Imagine if Jeremy Corbyn or any one of so many other politicians was PM. These laws set the most extraordinary of precedents.

    I have said more than once over the past 12 months - ask Walter Wolfgang about how such laws can be misused.
    It's not so much contrarian as illogical.

    He hates lockdowns (we all do) but he do what is the quickest route of lockdown and get a vaccine PDQ, but he'll get it private but not on the NHS because of the man, unaware that man will also be aware who gets the vaccine privately.
    Yes maybe. Maybe he has been driven mad by so much government. No idea. But it is his stand and he is entitled to make it and I find it disappointing that he is so ostracised by PB for doing so. As he has been throughout. Right up until there was an "oh shit" moment when it was thought that the govt would behave "illogically" by not bringing us out of lockdown when PB consensus thought it should and we all all of a sudden looked to Steve Baker as our one recourse to sanity.
    Firstly, he's not 'ostracised'.

    Secondly, we take the piss out of him because he believes the government wants to keep us locked down forever because... hey, look a dead squirrel.

    He has at every stage questioned the huge restrictions on our liberty while everyone else was applauding them.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,083
    Fascinating...it used to be states / towns trying to provide incentives to get companies to move, now it is attracting employees....

    https://youtu.be/oxiGJ7cGku4
This discussion has been closed.