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COVID vaccination – the extraordinary political divide in the US – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,005
edited March 2021 in General
imageCOVID vaccination – the extraordinary political divide in the US – politicalbetting.com

One of the features of American politics I find difficult understanding is in the above polling. As can be seen supporters of Donald Trump’s party, the Republicans, have a much more negative of vaccination view than Democrats even to the extent that 42% say they don’t plan to take it

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Comments

  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,328
    First
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    Second! Like SKS.....
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Rather sad.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited March 2021
    FPT
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Iain Dale in ConHome:

    The EU has no interest in Northern Ireland’s future prosperity. It just sees it as a mechanism to exert its power. It is a constitutional outrage that British companies are not free to trade without restriction to all parts of the sovereign United Kingdom. The checks that are now being demanded by the EU are so disproportionate as to be totally unreasonable. The British government bent over backwards to make a compromise to meet EU concerns that the Single Market could be compromised, but its goodwill has been exploited at every turn.

    At some point this has to stop, and the unilateral extension of the grace period is the inevitable consequence of EU inflexibility. It is not, as the Irish government unhelpfully says, a breach of international law. What it is, is a sign that Britain’s patience with the EU on this issue is about to expire.


    https://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2021/03/iain-dale-the-eu-has-no-interest-in-northern-irelands-future-prosperity-it-just-sees-it-as-a-mechanism-to-exert-its-power.html

    Bollox. It is the compromise arrangement that we insisted on. It is the trade deal that we negotiated. It is the operational model we signed. The EU had no interest at all in interjecting itself into the internal matters of a post-EU UK, where anyone with a brain can see that a GB-NI border is bonkers.

    So, we are back to the unsolvable issue of the intra-Irish border. It must be open and unimpeded, but has to provide the hard border between the EU and UK demanded by our government. They proposed that we stay in the customs union and aligned to EU standards until a technology solution could be found. No, WE LEAVE NOW we demanded. Which means the only other place for the border is the Irish Sea.

    Why do you think the Boris Burrows all lead to the Isle of Man? We have to put the customs post for the Boris Border somewhere, and the IoM fancies running duty free stores.
    No. Just don't have a hard border anywhere, problem solved. Fudge is the spirit of the GFA.
    Protecting the integrity of the SM was the EU's one and only true red line. That violates it.
    That's their problem. Ours is protecting the integrity of the UK.

    We should do whatever it takes, upto and including A16, to do our priority.
    But the deal respected that red line of theirs. They wouldn't have done it otherwise.

    We are Great Britain not a second hand car dealer.
    It respected ours too.

    Invoking Article 16 is not breaking international law, anymore than invoking Article 50 was. It is acting within the provisions they agreed to.

    The GFA was about ending the risk of violence from both sides. If the EU can't "de-escalate" the issue with the UK then the UK can unilaterally invoke Article 16 until there's no threat from or to either side anymore.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,621
    Remarkable divergence. Rollout seems to have been pretty good in the US though, so is it bearing out?
  • Options
    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    I don't really see how the US survives long term in a state where everything is politicised like this. The country has nothing it can agree on anymore. They badly need a common enemy - China should do.
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,380
    kle4 said:

    Remarkable divergence. Rollout seems to have been pretty good in the US though, so is it bearing out?

    I guess it's only detectable when you've finished vaccinating the willing (assuming you move on to the next group when you've done all the easy targets in one).

    Huge numbers of "don't know" responses (I assume, to make 100%). Depending how those go, herd immunity may not be a given for the US.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Not surprising.

    The Republican Party has long flirted with anti-science -- objections to evolution & climate change, conspiracy theories.

    The Democratic Party is fearful of genetic modification, industrial and agricultural chemistry.

    The US has simultaneously an advanced scientific elite (driven by immigration), and a primitive, backward population.
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Uh oh

    Payrolls data showing US economy recovering quicker than expected, (I guess powered by the US states who told the lockdown lunatics to do one?)

    US long rates going up further. 2/10 steepest in six years. Its going one way.

    IF they don't open up sooner, the reflation trade is going to hit Sunak and Johnson like a tsunami. 40bn deficit is going to be 70 overnight and they are going to be seriously f8cked.

  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,111
    The USA polling on this is all over the place. On 21 January CNN had 61% willing to be vaccinated -

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/21/politics/cnn-poll-coronavirus-vaccine/index.html

    Then, on 10 Feb, Gallup had 71% willing to get vaccinated.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Health/americans-willingness-covid-19-vaccines-reaches-record-high/story?id=75807568

    Those figures are difficult to square with the above unless you can factor in the fact that not all voters have indicated their affiliation when registering to vote.
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818


    Not surprising.

    The Republican Party has long flirted with anti-science -- objections to evolution & climate change, conspiracy theories.

    The Democratic Party is fearful of genetic modification, industrial and agricultural chemistry.

    The US has simultaneously an advanced scientific elite (driven by immigration), and a primitive, backward population.

    The republicans are still the party of Reagan, and therefore deeply suspicious of big government in any form.
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited March 2021
    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections now refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited March 2021

    Uh oh

    Payrolls data showing US economy recovering quicker than expected, (I guess powered by the US states who told the lockdown lunatics to do one?)

    US long rates going up further. 2/10 steepest in six years. Its going one way.

    IF they don't open up sooner, the reflation trade is going to hit Sunak and Johnson like a tsunami. 40bn deficit is going to be 70 overnight and they are going to be seriously f8cked.

    You keep being told but it literally does not work that way.

    The deficit can't and won't balloon like that overnight. It isn't the way it works. Our bonds are not on variable interest rates that all simultaneously change overnight, they are fixed dated years or decades into the future.

    A change in bond yields could be bad but not tens of billions overnight bad.
  • Options
    AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    DougSeal said:
    The interesting thing will be to see if the numbers stay high. The indications that we have been given was that this week would be bad but next week was when it would change. Good measure of how accurate their forecasting is.
  • Options
    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Selebian said:

    kle4 said:

    Remarkable divergence. Rollout seems to have been pretty good in the US though, so is it bearing out?

    I guess it's only detectable when you've finished vaccinating the willing (assuming you move on to the next group when you've done all the easy targets in one).

    Huge numbers of "don't know" responses (I assume, to make 100%). Depending how those go, herd immunity may not be a given for the US.
    The good news is the Democrats are heavily concentrated in the cities while the countryside is full of Republicans. So firstly, the main centres of economic activity should be much closer to herd immunity than anywhere else, and secondly, at least the diehard refuseniks should mostly be out of the way of other people.

    That said, South Dakota for a long time had the highest death rate of anywhere in the country, so there's no guarantees.
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited March 2021

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    If you vote, pay taxes or live in a fixed abode you're on a list. They know you.

    Taking a vaccine doesn't put you on a list, nor does it give a reason they'd either want or have a reason or right to ask why not next time.
  • Options
    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976


    Not surprising.

    The Republican Party has long flirted with anti-science -- objections to evolution & climate change, conspiracy theories.

    The Democratic Party is fearful of genetic modification, industrial and agricultural chemistry.

    The US has simultaneously an advanced scientific elite (driven by immigration), and a primitive, backward population.

    The republicans are still the party of Reagan, and therefore deeply suspicious of big government in any form.
    And the notion that vaccines could be an outpost of big government is as good a demonstration as any of how messed up the Republicans are right now.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,739
    DougSeal said:
    That's considerably better, and should keep growing, tho I confess I was hoping for a crazy figure, like 650,000

    Maybe we will hit those next week.

    High vaccine numbers are my daily boost. I crave them, like a drug
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,111
    Endillion said:

    Selebian said:

    kle4 said:

    Remarkable divergence. Rollout seems to have been pretty good in the US though, so is it bearing out?

    I guess it's only detectable when you've finished vaccinating the willing (assuming you move on to the next group when you've done all the easy targets in one).

    Huge numbers of "don't know" responses (I assume, to make 100%). Depending how those go, herd immunity may not be a given for the US.
    The good news is the Democrats are heavily concentrated in the cities while the countryside is full of Republicans. So firstly, the main centres of economic activity should be much closer to herd immunity than anywhere else, and secondly, at least the diehard refuseniks should mostly be out of the way of other people.

    That said, South Dakota for a long time had the highest death rate of anywhere in the country, so there's no guarantees.
    The way I see it is they can get there the easy way or the hard way. Democrats want to take the easy route, Republicans the hard one - https://globalnews.ca/news/7605082/herd-immunity-why-north-dakotas-coronavirus-cases-dropped-so-much/
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Uh oh

    Payrolls data showing US economy recovering quicker than expected, (I guess powered by the US states who told the lockdown lunatics to do one?)

    US long rates going up further. 2/10 steepest in six years. Its going one way.

    IF they don't open up sooner, the reflation trade is going to hit Sunak and Johnson like a tsunami. 40bn deficit is going to be 70 overnight and they are going to be seriously f8cked.

    You keep being told but it literally does not work that way.

    The deficit can't and won't balloon like that overnight. It isn't the way it works. Our bonds are not on variable interest rates that all simultaneously change overnight, they are fixed dated years or decades into the future.

    A change in bond yields could be bad but not tens of billions overnight bad.
    When the numbers are massive as they are now, and the economy so weak, it does work that way and that is why the treasury is so terrified of it. Its driving everything now and will do until the end of the parliament.

    In the autumn, the tories will be in big trouble and looking to liz Truss to thatcherise her way out of this nightmare.

    Because mark my words, nightmare it will be.
  • Options
    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:
    That's considerably better, and should keep growing, tho I confess I was hoping for a crazy figure, like 650,000

    Maybe we will hit those next week.

    High vaccine numbers are my daily boost. I crave them, like a drug
    Still lower than last week, which wasn't anywhere near the best Thursday number either - the news reports that it'll be crap till next Wednesday seem true - just hope the 2nd part of the report is true and it starts to go through the roof after that.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.

    If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.
  • Options
    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    Uh oh

    Payrolls data showing US economy recovering quicker than expected, (I guess powered by the US states who told the lockdown lunatics to do one?)

    US long rates going up further. 2/10 steepest in six years. Its going one way.

    IF they don't open up sooner, the reflation trade is going to hit Sunak and Johnson like a tsunami. 40bn deficit is going to be 70 overnight and they are going to be seriously f8cked.

    You keep being told but it literally does not work that way.

    The deficit can't and won't balloon like that overnight. It isn't the way it works. Our bonds are not on variable interest rates that all simultaneously change overnight, they are fixed dated years or decades into the future.

    A change in bond yields could be bad but not tens of billions overnight bad.


    In the autumn, the tories will be in big trouble and looking to liz Truss to thatcherise her way out of this nightmare.


    Liz Truss is a liberal. If you're looking for Thatcher you'll find her as utterly disappointing as Penny Maudent has been.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,739
    edited March 2021
    maaarsh said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:
    That's considerably better, and should keep growing, tho I confess I was hoping for a crazy figure, like 650,000

    Maybe we will hit those next week.

    High vaccine numbers are my daily boost. I crave them, like a drug
    Still lower than last week, which wasn't anywhere near the best Thursday number either - the news reports that it'll be crap till next Wednesday seem true - just hope the 2nd part of the report is true and it starts to go through the roof after that.
    450,000 (which is roughly what today will be, adding in the devolved nations) is not entirely crap. Every other European country would kill for these numbers. 450,000 means 312 jabs in every minute, five Britons every second

    But yes, I nonetheless hope it speeds up. Not least coz I want my own bloody jab. Stick it in me!
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Uh oh

    Payrolls data showing US economy recovering quicker than expected, (I guess powered by the US states who told the lockdown lunatics to do one?)

    US long rates going up further. 2/10 steepest in six years. Its going one way.

    IF they don't open up sooner, the reflation trade is going to hit Sunak and Johnson like a tsunami. 40bn deficit is going to be 70 overnight and they are going to be seriously f8cked.

    You keep being told but it literally does not work that way.

    The deficit can't and won't balloon like that overnight. It isn't the way it works. Our bonds are not on variable interest rates that all simultaneously change overnight, they are fixed dated years or decades into the future.

    A change in bond yields could be bad but not tens of billions overnight bad.
    When the numbers are massive as they are now, and the economy so weak, it does work that way and that is why the treasury is so terrified of it. Its driving everything now and will do until the end of the parliament.

    In the autumn, the tories will be in big trouble and looking to liz Truss to thatcherise her way out of this nightmare.

    Because mark my words, nightmare it will be.
    No it does not. Not tens of billions, not overnight.

    The Treasury rightly wants to take this issue seriously, but because its right to do so in the medium to long term, not because it will magically go up by tens of billions overnight when bonds are fixed for years and only a small amount of debt gets rolled over each month.
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited March 2021

    Uh oh

    Payrolls data showing US economy recovering quicker than expected, (I guess powered by the US states who told the lockdown lunatics to do one?)

    US long rates going up further. 2/10 steepest in six years. Its going one way.

    IF they don't open up sooner, the reflation trade is going to hit Sunak and Johnson like a tsunami. 40bn deficit is going to be 70 overnight and they are going to be seriously f8cked.

    You keep being told but it literally does not work that way.

    The deficit can't and won't balloon like that overnight. It isn't the way it works. Our bonds are not on variable interest rates that all simultaneously change overnight, they are fixed dated years or decades into the future.

    A change in bond yields could be bad but not tens of billions overnight bad.
    When the numbers are massive as they are now, and the economy so weak, it does work that way and that is why the treasury is so terrified of it. Its driving everything now and will do until the end of the parliament.

    In the autumn, the tories will be in big trouble and looking to liz Truss to thatcherise her way out of this nightmare.

    Because mark my words, nightmare it will be.
    Weren't the Tories supposed to be in big trouble right now, according to you? Looking forward to seeing if your autumn prediction pans out equally well.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    maaarsh said:

    Uh oh

    Payrolls data showing US economy recovering quicker than expected, (I guess powered by the US states who told the lockdown lunatics to do one?)

    US long rates going up further. 2/10 steepest in six years. Its going one way.

    IF they don't open up sooner, the reflation trade is going to hit Sunak and Johnson like a tsunami. 40bn deficit is going to be 70 overnight and they are going to be seriously f8cked.

    You keep being told but it literally does not work that way.

    The deficit can't and won't balloon like that overnight. It isn't the way it works. Our bonds are not on variable interest rates that all simultaneously change overnight, they are fixed dated years or decades into the future.

    A change in bond yields could be bad but not tens of billions overnight bad.


    In the autumn, the tories will be in big trouble and looking to liz Truss to thatcherise her way out of this nightmare.


    Liz Truss is a liberal. If you're looking for Thatcher you'll find her as utterly disappointing as Penny Maudent has been.
    Thatcher was a liberal though.
  • Options
    RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:
    That's considerably better, and should keep growing, tho I confess I was hoping for a crazy figure, like 650,000

    Maybe we will hit those next week.

    High vaccine numbers are my daily boost. I crave them, like a drug
    Rather like the saying "every death is a tragedy" I've come to think that every vaccination is another family getting a bit of joy. Even if it's a smaller number, that's still 300,000+ joyous moments which is a comfort, while the effectiveness of the jab among the 21m already vaccinated grows greater every day. The big days will come, but that doesn't mean nothing is happening.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    So you'd rather see social distancing continue?

    Will bear that in mind next time you wail against it.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    He thought Enemy of the State was a documentary
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited March 2021

    The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.

    If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.

    Until a strain comes along, that, as discussed in parliament the other day by the lords and by many scientists, evades the current vaccine. Time for another lockdown, followed by another vaccine.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,111

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    Interesting. Just before I read your post I had completed an article on how "No Jab/No Job" policies are likely to be lawful and commonplace in a few months. As you say, though, your decision.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,739

    The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.

    If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.

    I had this very same argument with a close antivaxxer friend. She loathes lockdown but won't have the jab. I tried to explain the logic: the vaccines are probably the only way, certainly the fastest way, OUT of lockdown

    She just wouldn't buy it. Antivaxxery is a weird mental condition. She's far from stupid

    Anyway, when she realises she can't travel anyway or work in many jobs or go to gigs or festivals or whatever, she will, I suspect, be forced to rethink
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    maaarsh said:

    Uh oh

    Payrolls data showing US economy recovering quicker than expected, (I guess powered by the US states who told the lockdown lunatics to do one?)

    US long rates going up further. 2/10 steepest in six years. Its going one way.

    IF they don't open up sooner, the reflation trade is going to hit Sunak and Johnson like a tsunami. 40bn deficit is going to be 70 overnight and they are going to be seriously f8cked.

    You keep being told but it literally does not work that way.

    The deficit can't and won't balloon like that overnight. It isn't the way it works. Our bonds are not on variable interest rates that all simultaneously change overnight, they are fixed dated years or decades into the future.

    A change in bond yields could be bad but not tens of billions overnight bad.


    In the autumn, the tories will be in big trouble and looking to liz Truss to thatcherise her way out of this nightmare.


    Liz Truss is a liberal. If you're looking for Thatcher you'll find her as utterly disappointing as Penny Maudent has been.
    Thatcher was a liberal too
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    What if they won't accept cash?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    DougSeal said:

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    Interesting. Just before I read your post I had completed an article on how "No Jab/No Job" policies are likely to be lawful and commonplace in a few months. As you say, though, your decision.
    The government should not insist "no jab/no job" but if an employer desires to do so then that is entirely libertarian.
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Leon said:

    The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.

    If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.

    I had this very same argument with a close antivaxxer friend. She loathes lockdown but won't have the jab. I tried to explain the logic: the vaccines are probably the only way, certainly the fastest way, OUT of lockdown

    She just wouldn't buy it. Antivaxxery is a weird mental condition. She's far from stupid

    Anyway, when she realises she can't travel anyway or work in many jobs or go to gigs or festivals or whatever, she will, I suspect, be forced to rethink
    I am the last person to tell you not to have a vaccine. Have one. Me? I'll take my chances, thanks. Until I can pay to have one privately and confidentially. Which I may. Or may not.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Leon said:

    maaarsh said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:
    That's considerably better, and should keep growing, tho I confess I was hoping for a crazy figure, like 650,000

    Maybe we will hit those next week.

    High vaccine numbers are my daily boost. I crave them, like a drug
    Still lower than last week, which wasn't anywhere near the best Thursday number either - the news reports that it'll be crap till next Wednesday seem true - just hope the 2nd part of the report is true and it starts to go through the roof after that.
    450,000 (which is roughly what today will be, adding in the devolved nations) is not entirely crap. Every other European country would kill for these numbers. 450,000 means 312 jabs in every minute, five Britons every second

    But yes, I nonetheless hope it speeds up. Not least coz I want my own bloody jab. Stick it in me!
    Sez the artisanal flint sex toy knapper
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    edited March 2021
    Anyone heard what is going on in Ynyswen - a serious incident with excess of 20 emergency vehicles on scene according to /Metro

    https://metro.co.uk/2021/03/05/ynyswen-major-incident-declared-with-number-of-casualties-in-wales-14194706/
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,621

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    I just dont know why vaccination is the line not to be crossed that indicates people want government to 'run our lives for us'. Government runs an awful lot of very important things, absent being an anti vaxxer what is the concern about government leading on this compared to such much else? Why do you think people getting a jab means they want the government to run their lives?

    It seems a bit victim complexy in order to be cast as a hero.
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    DougSeal said:

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    Interesting. Just before I read your post I had completed an article on how "No Jab/No Job" policies are likely to be lawful and commonplace in a few months. As you say, though, your decision.
    I am advanced enough in years and wealth for that to still be my decision. I realise how lucky I am.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited March 2021

    The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.

    If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.

    Until a strain comes along, that, as discussed in parliament the other day by the lords and by many scientists, evades the current vaccine. Time for another lockdown, followed by another vaccine.
    Again not the way it works.

    An evolving strain doesn't magically 100% evade the vaccine overnight, it tends to make the vaccine less effective not 100% ineffective.
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,111

    DougSeal said:

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    Interesting. Just before I read your post I had completed an article on how "No Jab/No Job" policies are likely to be lawful and commonplace in a few months. As you say, though, your decision.
    The government should not insist "no jab/no job" but if an employer desires to do so then that is entirely libertarian.
    That's what will happen IMO. Ditto airlines. I don't think there will be a domestic vaccine passport, likely unworkable, but if you want access to employment or international travel (i.e. nearly everyone) you will need to be vaccinated.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,286
    FPT - re Covid deaths leading to savings in NHS and care costs:

    Surely the NHS savings will be limited as the knock-on effect is to reduce waiting lists - ie they aren't going to close any hospitals / sack any nurses - if excess deaths create space it'll just be used treating someone else who was next in line.

    Re care costs it's maybe less clear cut - OK there will be savings from less home visits etc. But I doubt any council care homes will close - any spaces will likely be filled by people who were previously marginal re needing to go into care (albeit that saves further on home visits).
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,116
    Leon said:

    The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.

    If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.

    I had this very same argument with a close antivaxxer friend. She loathes lockdown but won't have the jab. I tried to explain the logic: the vaccines are probably the only way, certainly the fastest way, OUT of lockdown

    She just wouldn't buy it. Antivaxxery is a weird mental condition. She's far from stupid

    Anyway, when she realises she can't travel anyway or work in many jobs or go to gigs or festivals or whatever, she will, I suspect, be forced to rethink
    Did you get to the heart of why she is anti-vax?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,621

    The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.

    If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.

    Until a strain comes along, that, as discussed in parliament the other day by the lords and by many scientists, evades the current vaccine. Time for another lockdown, followed by another vaccine.
    So theyd have to update the vaccine like with flu jabs, so what?

    Are we supposed to be horrified that viruses mutate and the defence to them might need updating?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,334

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    It is your decision, though.
    You've just decided not to.

    What you've written is patently absurd.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,382
    edited March 2021
    ..
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,621

    Leon said:

    The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.

    If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.

    I had this very same argument with a close antivaxxer friend. She loathes lockdown but won't have the jab. I tried to explain the logic: the vaccines are probably the only way, certainly the fastest way, OUT of lockdown

    She just wouldn't buy it. Antivaxxery is a weird mental condition. She's far from stupid

    Anyway, when she realises she can't travel anyway or work in many jobs or go to gigs or festivals or whatever, she will, I suspect, be forced to rethink
    I am the last person to tell you not to have a vaccine. Have one. Me? I'll take my chances, thanks. Until I can pay to have one privately and confidentially. Which I may. Or may not.
    I assume that for consistency, if you or your loved ones are unfortunate enough to get very ill from covid (or, indeed, anything else), that you avoid using the state-provided NHS?

    Or, if burgled, the state-provided police?
    Exactly - why is this the line?

    People argue about how much the state should do or provide, our ancestors would be stunned at what we expect I have no doubt. But with what even small state people expect, why is this too much and not something else?
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    I don't say this lightly, but you're an idiot then. This vaccine may save your life, and certainly may save the life of someone more at risk. The more of us who receive it, the better the effect will be. You obviously have no civic responsibility. I'd argue it is our duty to have it to protect others.
    Excuse me, but what utter bullsh8t

    No civic responsibility? I have paid higher rate taxes all my life. All my life. That;s a lot of schools and hospitals matey.

    I'm not going to be lectured by some obese gobsh8te in a mask on benefits or furlough who is' protecting others' by needing vast amount of expensive care due to their gluttony and lack of exercise.

    I've written the government an enormous cheque and in return I respectfully suggest you effing do one.
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    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited March 2021

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?

    Thanks for finally making your position clear.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,621
    Nigelb said:

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    It is your decision, though.
    You've just decided not to.

    What you've written is patently absurd.
    Some people think being offered something by government is the government taking the decision away from you, and taking up the offer essentially a moral failing. I dont understand it.
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,111
    edited March 2021

    The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.

    If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.

    Until a strain comes along, that, as discussed in parliament the other day by the lords and by many scientists, evades the current vaccine. Time for another lockdown, followed by another vaccine.
    The scientific consensus is emerging that new variants may evade antibody protection but are very unlikely indeed to evade T-Cell immunity for all time. Here's something from one of those evil members of SAGE you love to imagine stroking white cats under dormant volcanos -





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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?

    Thanks for finally making your position clear.
    There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Look at the user name and stop feeding the troll
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,040


    Not surprising.

    The Republican Party has long flirted with anti-science -- objections to evolution & climate change, conspiracy theories.

    The Democratic Party is fearful of genetic modification, industrial and agricultural chemistry.

    The US has simultaneously an advanced scientific elite (driven by immigration), and a primitive, backward population.

    The republicans are still the party of Reagan, and therefore deeply suspicious of big government in any form.
    Not so. They are now the party of Trump, and therefore deeply suspicious...
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,116
    Floater said:

    Look at the user name and stop feeding the troll

    I think so - he's very rude. I mean how does he know I'm obese? Must be looking at my webcam...
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,621
    Endillion said:

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    I think you should go the whole hog: manufacture and administer your own vaccine. After all, what gives big pharma companies the right to decide what goes into your body, or qualified nurses the right to decide where to stick it in?
    Oddly, some who are very keen on always being allowed to do what they want are very opposed to others doing what they want, if it affects them or is not something they like.

    Almost like society leads to competing interests that might need some wider consideration.
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,494
    The only anti vaxer I know in this country also believes in QAnon, Trumpism, that the election was stolen and all that. The large minority of the US population must be subject to a sort of mass hallucination, which is too widespread to be a psychiatric illness (which is seems to resemble) so I suppose there is hope that, like Germany after the war, they will recover.
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    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,380
    DougSeal said:
    Indeed. Although "effective" is a broad word. It would be surprising if it was completely ineffective.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,334
    Under 60s seems now to be a thing (despite the wording still up on the NHS link).
    Just managed to book a vaccination for a week Saturday.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    Scotland split 29,064 8,139
    England 320,388 45,045
    Wales 15,502 15,374
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    LeonLeon Posts: 46,739
    Nigelb said:

    Under 60s seems now to be a thing (despite the wording still up on the NHS link).
    Just managed to book a vaccination for a week Saturday.

    Oooh. Linky?
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    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?

    Thanks for finally making your position clear.
    There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
    I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Nigelb said:

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?

    Thanks for finally making your position clear.
    There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
    Instead, you are relying on the rest of us to be vaccinated, to get you out of lockdown.
    I'm happy to do that for you, but your argument is neither persuasive nor principled.
    And you are relying on me and people like me to keep paying higher rate taxes in spades so that when the NHS is needed, it is there for you and everybody. And the rest of the welfare state.

    You are relying on me to keep working in the UK and paying taxes in the UK, but having people all over the world use and pay for my services, so the money keeps flowing in. Which I am happy to do.

    And so frankly you know where you can stick your bullsh*t lecture.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 46,739
    Nigelb said:

    Under 60s seems now to be a thing (despite the wording still up on the NHS link).
    Just managed to book a vaccination for a week Saturday.

    Thankyou!!

    Just booked. Next Friday. Francis Crick Institute. I GET THE JABBB!!!!

    REALLY efficient. Took 3 minutes. So impressive
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    DougSeal said:
    Excellent news. I have to say from a poor start due to a badly put together trial the AZ vaccine could end up being top of the class. I've been reading some private research on what I was talking about earlier this week on mixing the AZ and J&J jabs for 2 doses 12 weeks apart and some of the modelling says it could have the highest efficacy of any combination.
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-perpetual-covid-crisis-11614902148?st=6hr89bhcw2pla9d&reflink=article_email_share

    OMG its those anti-lockdown conspiracy theorists at.....er......the Wall Street Journal.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606

    Nigelb said:

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?

    Thanks for finally making your position clear.
    There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
    Instead, you are relying on the rest of us to be vaccinated, to get you out of lockdown.
    I'm happy to do that for you, but your argument is neither persuasive nor principled.
    And you are relying on me and people like me to keep paying higher rate taxes in spades so that when the NHS is needed, it is there for you and everybody. And the rest of the welfare state.

    You are relying on me to keep working in the UK and paying taxes in the UK, but having people all over the world use and pay for my services, so the money keeps flowing in. Which I am happy to do.

    And so frankly you know where you can stick your bullsh*t lecture.
    Hmm, there are a lot of additional rate tax payers on PB and we're all getting the vaccine. In fact of those that I know on here I'm probably one of the few that hasn't had it yet and I'm just waiting patiently for my turn.

    Paying tax has nothing to do with getting or not getting a vaccine. You're a complete and utter fool.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited March 2021
    So the site's resident Covid denier is now an antivaxxer?

    image
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Floater said:

    Look at the user name and stop feeding the troll

    Quite - even Hyufd in 'full-on tanks in Glasgow' mode is better than this.
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,111
    Selebian said:

    DougSeal said:
    Indeed. Although "effective" is a broad word. It would be surprising if it was completely ineffective.
    I think that message needs to be rammed home again and again and again. Those nifty T-Cells and etc. mean that these vaccines will probably stop you going to hospital and will almost certainly stop you dying. The more I read about the 1889-90 Russian Flu pandemic (i.e. common reported symptoms of loss of taste/long lasting lethargy together with the recent virological studies) the more I am inclined to the view it was a coronavirus that even today we continue to get - but exposure to it has blunted its effect over 130 years to the level of a bad cold. No human immune system in the world was quite ready for this (there may have been some exceptions) but more and more people have been exposed to vaccines or infection so we have, I really believe, seen the worst of this pandemic. It will still be around but the worst is behind us.

    There's still away to go though - and we also have to prepare for the next pandemic now...
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?

    Thanks for finally making your position clear.
    There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
    I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
    Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?

    Thanks for finally making your position clear.
    There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
    I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
    It's such an odd thing to come into contact with one of the 5% of actual hardcore anti-vaxxers that doesn't post BTL on the Telegraph of Express.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Under 60s seems now to be a thing (despite the wording still up on the NHS link).
    Just managed to book a vaccination for a week Saturday.

    Thankyou!!

    Just booked. Next Friday. Francis Crick Institute. I GET THE JABBB!!!!

    REALLY efficient. Took 3 minutes. So impressive
    ohh is there a link - asks the 57 yo only person in house not having had first jab
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    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,243
    Forgoing the vaccine should be everyone’s libertarian choice. Equally it should be the taxpayers’ choice not to give them healthcare in our hospitals or their kids an education in our schools. Scared of the big bad state, well it cuts both ways matey.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    DougSeal said:
    Jeez - yet another reason to just gasp with amazement at the incredible stupidity of politicians, civil servants, scientists, doctors and everyone else in Europe.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    edited March 2021
    DougSeal said:

    The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.

    If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.

    Until a strain comes along, that, as discussed in parliament the other day by the lords and by many scientists, evades the current vaccine. Time for another lockdown, followed by another vaccine.
    The scientific consensus is emerging that new variants may evade antibody protection but are very unlikely indeed to evade T-Cell immunity for all time. Here's something from one of those evil members of SAGE you love to imagine stroking white cats under dormant volcanos -





    I don't see why there should be a "substantial" degree of Covid deaths. We need 93-95% to keep measles suppressed. We are seeing that level of take up of the Covid vaccine in the over 70's. I suspect it will be that for all age groups, but the "substantial" deaths are only in those upper age bands.

    To keep the Covid fires stoked, you are effectively going to need all the unvaccinated meeting up to pass it on to themselves. And if they do - that is choice they have made, however stupid their pool of knowledge.
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    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,416
    edited March 2021
    moonshine said:

    Forgoing the vaccine should be everyone’s libertarian choice. Equally it should be the taxpayers’ choice not to give them healthcare in our hospitals or their kids an education in our schools. Scared of the big bad state, well it cuts both ways matey.

    Do they then get to pay no tax?

    in reality its stupid talking in these extremes given even you would balk at kids being denied education for their parents actions
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.

    To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.

    Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
    I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.

    That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
    So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?

    Thanks for finally making your position clear.
    There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
    Instead, you are relying on the rest of us to be vaccinated, to get you out of lockdown.
    I'm happy to do that for you, but your argument is neither persuasive nor principled.
    And you are relying on me and people like me to keep paying higher rate taxes in spades so that when the NHS is needed, it is there for you and everybody. And the rest of the welfare state.

    You are relying on me to keep working in the UK and paying taxes in the UK, but having people all over the world use and pay for my services, so the money keeps flowing in. Which I am happy to do.

    And so frankly you know where you can stick your bullsh*t lecture.
    Hmm, there are a lot of additional rate tax payers on PB and we're all getting the vaccine. In fact of those that I know on here I'm probably one of the few that hasn't had it yet and I'm just waiting patiently for my turn.

    Paying tax has nothing to do with getting or not getting a vaccine. You're a complete and utter fool.
    I know that.

    Here's me encouraging and supporting you in your quest to get a vaccine. I may get one myself. In my own time.
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,111
    edited March 2021
    felix said:

    Floater said:

    Look at the user name and stop feeding the troll

    Quite - even Hyufd in 'full-on tanks in Glasgow' mode is better than this.
    Occasionally HYUFD has insight. He does go off on one sometimes though.
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,070
    Endillion said:

    I don't really see how the US survives long term in a state where everything is politicised like this. The country has nothing it can agree on anymore. They badly need a common enemy - China should do.

    Sometimes internal divisions are so deep that external threat causes further fracturing, rather than bringing people together.

    I think the QAnon/Trump 30% will never support a Democratic President to any extent. Just look at how quickly Republican voters' views on Russia changed after Trump started sucking up to Putin.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,116
    MaxPB said:

    DougSeal said:
    Excellent news. I have to say from a poor start due to a badly put together trial the AZ vaccine could end up being top of the class. I've been reading some private research on what I was talking about earlier this week on mixing the AZ and J&J jabs for 2 doses 12 weeks apart and some of the modelling says it could have the highest efficacy of any combination.
    One of the things a colleague said to me sticks in my head - most of the vaccines are using the same spike protein, so ultimately its likely the effectiveness won't differ hugely (delivery methods may play a role). It is a shame that AZ stuffed up the trial, but all of this was done at speed, and we are now in Phase III+ - the real world. The emerging data is great, and I suspect the vaccines will be much of a muchness by the end.
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,111
    MaxPB said:

    DougSeal said:
    Excellent news. I have to say from a poor start due to a badly put together trial the AZ vaccine could end up being top of the class. I've been reading some private research on what I was talking about earlier this week on mixing the AZ and J&J jabs for 2 doses 12 weeks apart and some of the modelling says it could have the highest efficacy of any combination.
    My mother-in-law, who has really bad allergies, had such a reaction to her first Pfizer dose that she was told not to come back for the second. Any news on your grapevine about her following up with the J&J shot (she's in the States)?
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