Forgoing the vaccine should be everyone’s libertarian choice. Equally it should be the taxpayers’ choice not to give them healthcare in our hospitals or their kids an education in our schools. Scared of the big bad state, well it cuts both ways matey.
Do they then get to pay no tax?
in reality its stupid talking in these extremes given even you would balk at kids being denied education for their parents actions
I would 100% ban any kid from attending school or an early years setting that was not fully up to date with their vaccines. I’ve lived somewhere where this was the rule and it worked well. That you think it’s extreme or stupid says rather a lot.
and it says a lot about you frankly
It’s been quite jarring seeing the uk up close as a parent. Got an email from the school this week begging parents to give their kids the mmr as there’s a vulnerable child who a) cannot take vaccines and b) would be at increased risk of death if they caught any of the three.
If I ran the school I’d be demanding vaccine certificates for every child in attendance. Any parent selfish and ignorant enough not to care can stick with the home schooling.
Grown up societies and grown up people should continually debate the trade offs between individual right to choose and security. Unflinchingly shaking your fist in defence of “liberty” without a second thought, is as childish as those that want to suckle at nanny state’s teet their whole life.
We make such trade offs all the time, it's being an adult to discuss their level and how much. I too have red lines on such, but we all know societies need to discuss whether there is a need. And it wont always get the balance right, but it's silly to act like it's not a balance.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
Interesting. Just before I read your post I had completed an article on how "No Jab/No Job" policies are likely to be lawful and commonplace in a few months. As you say, though, your decision.
The government should not insist "no jab/no job" but if an employer desires to do so then that is entirely libertarian.
But the government is an employer. The biggest one in the country. So, jab needed to work in a public sector office c.f. jab needed to work in a private sector office - the first is an ethical problem but the second isn't? Can't quite see the logic there tbh.
Absolutely spot on. Asking a neuroscientist about this is like asking me (an employment lawyer) to advise you on boundary disputes (which, TBF, my parents have been doing for 20 years...)
Sounds like they should move to avoid the headache of whatever has been in dispute for 20 years!
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
Interesting. Just before I read your post I had completed an article on how "No Jab/No Job" policies are likely to be lawful and commonplace in a few months. As you say, though, your decision.
The government should not insist "no jab/no job" but if an employer desires to do so then that is entirely libertarian.
That's what will happen IMO. Ditto airlines. I don't think there will be a domestic vaccine passport, likely unworkable, but if you want access to employment or international travel (i.e. nearly everyone) you will need to be vaccinated.
I'll be surprised if proof of jab is required for many jobs other than perhaps in healthcare.
A lot of my clients are asking about it. In plumbing it appears to be a thing.
Yes, any job that involves going into other people's houses for an extended time, will need a vax passport
So, plumbers, painters, builders, decoraters, Sky repairmen, boiler repair. Maybe even estate agents.
The list will be much longer than kinabalu realises.
I don't really see how the US survives long term in a state where everything is politicised like this. The country has nothing it can agree on anymore. They badly need a common enemy - China should do.
It's where endless diversity politics gets you though. Every group has a grievance, and everybody thinks about their own grievances and ignores everybody else's. We'd go the same way if the diversity industry has its way.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
Interesting. Just before I read your post I had completed an article on how "No Jab/No Job" policies are likely to be lawful and commonplace in a few months. As you say, though, your decision.
The government should not insist "no jab/no job" but if an employer desires to do so then that is entirely libertarian.
That's what will happen IMO. Ditto airlines. I don't think there will be a domestic vaccine passport, likely unworkable, but if you want access to employment or international travel (i.e. nearly everyone) you will need to be vaccinated.
I'll be surprised if proof of jab is required for many jobs other than perhaps in healthcare.
A lot of my clients are asking about it. In plumbing it appears to be a thing.
Yes, any job that involves going into other people's houses for an extended time, will need a vax passport
So, plumbers, painters, builders, decoraters, Sky repairmen, boiler repair. Maybe even estate agents.
The list will be much longer than kinabalu realises.
Forgoing the vaccine should be everyone’s libertarian choice. Equally it should be the taxpayers’ choice not to give them healthcare in our hospitals or their kids an education in our schools. Scared of the big bad state, well it cuts both ways matey.
Do they then get to pay no tax?
in reality its stupid talking in these extremes given even you would balk at kids being denied education for their parents actions
I would 100% ban any kid from attending school or an early years setting that was not fully up to date with their vaccines. I’ve lived somewhere where this was the rule and it worked well. That you think it’s extreme or stupid says rather a lot.
and it says a lot about you frankly
It’s been quite jarring seeing the uk up close as a parent. Got an email from the school this week begging parents to give their kids the mmr as there’s a vulnerable child who a) cannot take vaccines and b) would be at increased risk of death if they caught any of the three.
If I ran the school I’d be demanding vaccine certificates for every child in attendance. Any parent selfish and ignorant enough not to care can stick with the home schooling.
Grown up societies and grown up people should continually debate the trade offs between individual right to choose and security. Unflinchingly shaking your fist in defence of “liberty” without a second thought, is as childish as those that want to suckle at nanny state’s teet their whole life.
We make such trade offs all the time, it's being an adult to discuss their level and how much. I too have red lines on such, but we all know societies need to discuss whether there is a need. And it wont always get the balance right, but it's silly to act like it's not a balance.
Many years ago, when I was professionally concerned with such matters, a school nurse came to me for help. Apparently a child had arrived in one of 'her' school with, according to the mother, a severe peanut allergy. The nurse and the Head had asked therefore asked parents not to include peanut butter sandwiches in their children's lunchboxes. One mother wrote back that her child really liked such sandwiches and it was down to the school to make sure that affected child was protected, not her.
Absolutely spot on. Asking a neuroscientist about this is like asking me (an employment lawyer) to advise you on boundary disputes (which, TBF, my parents have been doing for 20 years...)
You could advise them to sack their legal counsel.
Ah, I was just going by what Leon implied earlier.
You ignore that and push through. It worked for me. Got an appointment in seconds. Indeed I had a luxurious choice of jabbing centres, from Marylebone to Bloomsbury to the new Francis Crick Institute. I chose the last because it's an impressive building but I've never been inside
I don't really see how the US survives long term in a state where everything is politicised like this. The country has nothing it can agree on anymore. They badly need a common enemy - China should do.
It's where endless diversity politics gets you though. Every group has a grievance, and everybody thinks about their own grievances and ignores everybody else's. We'd go the same way if the diversity industry has its way.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
Interesting. Just before I read your post I had completed an article on how "No Jab/No Job" policies are likely to be lawful and commonplace in a few months. As you say, though, your decision.
The government should not insist "no jab/no job" but if an employer desires to do so then that is entirely libertarian.
But the government is an employer. The biggest one in the country. So, jab needed to work in a public sector office c.f. jab needed to work in a private sector office - the first is an ethical problem but the second isn't? Can't quite see the logic there tbh.
I think it will be required in the military and the NHS.
Absolutely spot on. Asking a neuroscientist about this is like asking me (an employment lawyer) to advise you on boundary disputes (which, TBF, my parents have been doing for 20 years...)
Sounds like they should move to avoid the headache of whatever has been in dispute for 20 years!
Bother. I've got a boundary problem and was thinking of pm-ing for advice.
Absolutely spot on. Asking a neuroscientist about this is like asking me (an employment lawyer) to advise you on boundary disputes (which, TBF, my parents have been doing for 20 years...)
Sounds like they should move to avoid the headache of whatever has been in dispute for 20 years!
Bother. I've got a boundary problem and was thinking of pm-ing for advice.
Seriously - it would be like asking your dentist to perform heart surgery.
I'm not sure how terrible a thing it would be if a large number of Republicans of the more Trumpian persuasion were to skip the vaccine and insist on having unprotected life - which in many cases is then duly brought to a premature end by Covid.
Re the NHS website saying over 60s, but allowing 55-60s to book.
I have seen this previously with other groups. My guess the backend gets preloaded with a new cohort slightly in advance of a new public announcement e.g. we might see over the Sunday report that 55-60s is now all go go go from Monday, letters on their way etc.
Absolutely spot on. Asking a neuroscientist about this is like asking me (an employment lawyer) to advise you on boundary disputes (which, TBF, my parents have been doing for 20 years...)
You could advise them to sack their legal counsel.
To them, I am their legal counsel. They don't quite see why I shouldn't be able to pick up by Big Book of Law and tell them what to do.
That's considerably better, and should keep growing, tho I confess I was hoping for a crazy figure, like 650,000
Maybe we will hit those next week.
High vaccine numbers are my daily boost. I crave them, like a drug
Still lower than last week, which wasn't anywhere near the best Thursday number either - the news reports that it'll be crap till next Wednesday seem true - just hope the 2nd part of the report is true and it starts to go through the roof after that.
450,000 (which is roughly what today will be, adding in the devolved nations) is not entirely crap. Every other European country would kill for these numbers. 450,000 means 312 jabs in every minute, five Britons every second
But yes, I nonetheless hope it speeds up. Not least coz I want my own bloody jab. Stick it in me!
450,000 would be more than the next two EU countries yesterday (Germany & Spain) added together.....
Absolutely spot on. Asking a neuroscientist about this is like asking me (an employment lawyer) to advise you on boundary disputes (which, TBF, my parents have been doing for 20 years...)
You could advise them to sack their legal counsel.
To them, I am their legal counsel. They don't quite see why I shouldn't be able to pick up by Big Book of Law and tell them what to do.
D'you think they might have a bit of an issue with boundaries?
Absolutely spot on. Asking a neuroscientist about this is like asking me (an employment lawyer) to advise you on boundary disputes (which, TBF, my parents have been doing for 20 years...)
You could advise them to sack their legal counsel.
To them, I am their legal counsel. They don't quite see why I shouldn't be able to pick up by Big Book of Law and tell them what to do.
D'you think they might have a bit of an issue with boundaries?
The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.
If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.
I had this very same argument with a close antivaxxer friend. She loathes lockdown but won't have the jab. I tried to explain the logic: the vaccines are probably the only way, certainly the fastest way, OUT of lockdown
She just wouldn't buy it. Antivaxxery is a weird mental condition. She's far from stupid
Anyway, when she realises she can't travel anyway or work in many jobs or go to gigs or festivals or whatever, she will, I suspect, be forced to rethink
I am the last person to tell you not to have a vaccine. Have one. Me? I'll take my chances, thanks. Until I can pay to have one privately and confidentially. Which I may. Or may not.
I am not an anti-vaxxer, but I can fully understand the mentality behind it. The last 12 months have made it very difficult to trust the state. There has been so much constant haranguing, so many out and out lies (the casual interchange of 'cases' with 'positive tests', the insistence that 'cases' are going up at times when all available evidence points to the opposite), so much vitriol poured on anyone whose views questioned the orthodoxy in any mild way, so much overreach of state power (policing people sitting on park benches). To the slightly curious, it hasn't exactly felt like the state is on our side. Now, presumably the state's approach - they have form in this - is to decide that the only way they can make people to behave as they want is to exaggerate the threat ('if people won't believe the truth, we'll have to lie to them.'). They have form on this. But doing this pushes a small core of people not to co-operate at all. People feel like they're being manipulated, and people have an aversion to being manipulated. It has felt to some of us like the enthusiasm for lockdown measures has been out of all proportion to the benefit in controlling the disease. It's only a small jump from that to a conclusion that lockdowns are an end in themselves. And the obvious evidence of vaccines working isn't yet particularly exciting. All the indicators are that the virus is in retreat - but that was true ten months ago, and there wasn't a vaccine then. Deaths and positive tests among the oldies are declining - but not much, yet, in comparison to the unvaccinated population. Now I want to believe. I want to have hope. I'm looking desperately for evidence that vaccines work, and so I am happy to hear enthusiasm about them from well-informed voices on here. I will of course have the vaccine when it is offered - I have been vaccinated without qualms for other things. But if I wasn't already in a 'want to believe' mindset I could easily convince myself not to. I could easily convince myself that the state was not on my side. And I could easily convince myself that lockdowns are the end, not the means. As I say, I'm NOT in that mindset. But I can understand it.
Interesting post. The bit that stands out is 'the conclusion that lockdowns are an end in themselves'. I know that's not your opinion, but what possible end could there be for a government to have a lockdown as an end in itself? Thats the bit I don't understand. Any ideas?
Well there's all sorts of conspiracies flying around. The great reset, etc. Now I don't buy into all this, rationally. But I can well understand why people do, given the circumstances. And given that during lockdown we are deprived of our ability to rub the edges off our crazier opinions through our interactions with real people, rather than nutters on twitter and facebook (pb.com is actually an antidote to this - there's a pretty wide range of opinions, most of which get tested fairly). And given that, given the circumstances, many people's (mine included) mental health has not been what it might be - which leaves us rather more receptive to catastrophising.
Now I'm pretty libertarian anyway (despite having a public sector job). So maybe I'm more disinclined than most to perceive the state as benign. But still, I can see why some people have become more suspicious of stat motives.
It may well be of course that the way the government has done it has hit the sweet spot. Had they pushed less hard, maybe fewer who would feel manipulated but maybe more would have been disinclined to change their behaviours. It's not something we can ever have a control for.
In reality, we're in the happy position that anti-vaxxism isn't going to matter that much; there's so few anti-vaxxers that we should easily manage to get to a her immunity threshold without having to dragoon the unwilling.
Absolutely spot on. Asking a neuroscientist about this is like asking me (an employment lawyer) to advise you on boundary disputes (which, TBF, my parents have been doing for 20 years...)
Sounds like they should move to avoid the headache of whatever has been in dispute for 20 years!
Bother. I've got a boundary problem and was thinking of pm-ing for advice.
I have much sympathies. Even petty boundary disputes seem to drive people to years or decades of intense, all consuming fury and worry.
Absolutely spot on. Asking a neuroscientist about this is like asking me (an employment lawyer) to advise you on boundary disputes (which, TBF, my parents have been doing for 20 years...)
Sounds like they should move to avoid the headache of whatever has been in dispute for 20 years!
Bother. I've got a boundary problem and was thinking of pm-ing for advice.
Seriously - it would be like asking your dentist to perform heart surgery.
I know. Wasn't serious. TBH, it would probably be better to ask Mr Gallowgate. However, my insurance company has a firm of lawyers on tap and I thought I might as well get some value out of my policy so rang them. And got an answer which would have done justice to an economist...... one the one hand this...... but one other hand.....that. Essentially the chap advised me to sort it out without redress to the law.
Absolutely spot on. Asking a neuroscientist about this is like asking me (an employment lawyer) to advise you on boundary disputes (which, TBF, my parents have been doing for 20 years...)
You could advise them to sack their legal counsel.
My other half volunteers at a vaccine site. They have been doing three days a week 9-5. From the week after next they are going 5/7 days a week and 8-8. Make of that what you will. Only one centre, but....
Absolutely spot on. Asking a neuroscientist about this is like asking me (an employment lawyer) to advise you on boundary disputes (which, TBF, my parents have been doing for 20 years...)
Sounds like they should move to avoid the headache of whatever has been in dispute for 20 years!
Bother. I've got a boundary problem and was thinking of pm-ing for advice.
Seriously - it would be like asking your dentist to perform heart surgery.
I know. Wasn't serious. TBH, it would probably be better to ask Mr Gallowgate. However, my insurance company has a firm of lawyers on tap and I thought I might as well get some value out of my policy so rang them. And got an answer which would have done justice to an economist...... one the one hand this...... but one other hand.....that. Essentially the chap advised me to sort it out without redress to the law.
Lawyers often try to have things be sorted without their involvement.
In fairness it usually is best to avoid legal avenues if at all possible. Escalation ramps up like crazy when lawyers are brought on, even if the lawyer does not want that!
Absolutely spot on. Asking a neuroscientist about this is like asking me (an employment lawyer) to advise you on boundary disputes (which, TBF, my parents have been doing for 20 years...)
Sounds like they should move to avoid the headache of whatever has been in dispute for 20 years!
Bother. I've got a boundary problem and was thinking of pm-ing for advice.
Seriously - it would be like asking your dentist to perform heart surgery.
I know. Wasn't serious. TBH, it would probably be better to ask Mr Gallowgate. However, my insurance company has a firm of lawyers on tap and I thought I might as well get some value out of my policy so rang them. And got an answer which would have done justice to an economist...... one the one hand this...... but one other hand.....that. Essentially the chap advised me to sort it out without redress to the law.
That's really poor. I always say to trainees "take a view - tell the client what you think they should do. They'll like that. If you're right they'll graduate to loving you. If you're wrong the insurance poicy will pick it up. Just don't make it a multiple choice - that's not what you're being paid for."
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
Interesting. Just before I read your post I had completed an article on how "No Jab/No Job" policies are likely to be lawful and commonplace in a few months. As you say, though, your decision.
The government should not insist "no jab/no job" but if an employer desires to do so then that is entirely libertarian.
That's what will happen IMO. Ditto airlines. I don't think there will be a domestic vaccine passport, likely unworkable, but if you want access to employment or international travel (i.e. nearly everyone) you will need to be vaccinated.
I'll be surprised if proof of jab is required for many jobs other than perhaps in healthcare.
A lot of my clients are asking about it. In plumbing it appears to be a thing.
Yes, any job that involves going into other people's houses for an extended time, will need a vax passport
So, plumbers, painters, builders, decoraters, Sky repairmen, boiler repair. Maybe even estate agents.
The list will be much longer than kinabalu realises.
I don't see why, really. If a plumber comes to my house to do some plumbing, it doesn't matter whether he has had a jab or not because I have. And if I haven't, then that's my responsibility, not his. I appreciate I am oversimplifying wildly.
The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.
If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.
I had this very same argument with a close antivaxxer friend. She loathes lockdown but won't have the jab. I tried to explain the logic: the vaccines are probably the only way, certainly the fastest way, OUT of lockdown
She just wouldn't buy it. Antivaxxery is a weird mental condition. She's far from stupid
Anyway, when she realises she can't travel anyway or work in many jobs or go to gigs or festivals or whatever, she will, I suspect, be forced to rethink
I am the last person to tell you not to have a vaccine. Have one. Me? I'll take my chances, thanks. Until I can pay to have one privately and confidentially. Which I may. Or may not.
I am not an anti-vaxxer, but I can fully understand the mentality behind it. The last 12 months have made it very difficult to trust the state. There has been so much constant haranguing, so many out and out lies (the casual interchange of 'cases' with 'positive tests', the insistence that 'cases' are going up at times when all available evidence points to the opposite), so much vitriol poured on anyone whose views questioned the orthodoxy in any mild way, so much overreach of state power (policing people sitting on park benches). To the slightly curious, it hasn't exactly felt like the state is on our side. Now, presumably the state's approach - they have form in this - is to decide that the only way they can make people to behave as they want is to exaggerate the threat ('if people won't believe the truth, we'll have to lie to them.'). They have form on this. But doing this pushes a small core of people not to co-operate at all. People feel like they're being manipulated, and people have an aversion to being manipulated. It has felt to some of us like the enthusiasm for lockdown measures has been out of all proportion to the benefit in controlling the disease. It's only a small jump from that to a conclusion that lockdowns are an end in themselves. And the obvious evidence of vaccines working isn't yet particularly exciting. All the indicators are that the virus is in retreat - but that was true ten months ago, and there wasn't a vaccine then. Deaths and positive tests among the oldies are declining - but not much, yet, in comparison to the unvaccinated population. Now I want to believe. I want to have hope. I'm looking desperately for evidence that vaccines work, and so I am happy to hear enthusiasm about them from well-informed voices on here. I will of course have the vaccine when it is offered - I have been vaccinated without qualms for other things. But if I wasn't already in a 'want to believe' mindset I could easily convince myself not to. I could easily convince myself that the state was not on my side. And I could easily convince myself that lockdowns are the end, not the means. As I say, I'm NOT in that mindset. But I can understand it.
Interesting post. The bit that stands out is 'the conclusion that lockdowns are an end in themselves'. I know that's not your opinion, but what possible end could there be for a government to have a lockdown as an end in itself? Thats the bit I don't understand. Any ideas?
Well there's all sorts of conspiracies flying around. The great reset, etc. Now I don't buy into all this, rationally. But I can well understand why people do, given the circumstances. And given that during lockdown we are deprived of our ability to rub the edges off our crazier opinions through our interactions with real people, rather than nutters on twitter and facebook (pb.com is actually an antidote to this - there's a pretty wide range of opinions, most of which get tested fairly). And given that, given the circumstances, many people's (mine included) mental health has not been what it might be - which leaves us rather more receptive to catastrophising.
Now I'm pretty libertarian anyway (despite having a public sector job). So maybe I'm more disinclined than most to perceive the state as benign. But still, I can see why some people have become more suspicious of stat motives.
It may well be of course that the way the government has done it has hit the sweet spot. Had they pushed less hard, maybe fewer who would feel manipulated but maybe more would have been disinclined to change their behaviours. It's not something we can ever have a control for.
In reality, we're in the happy position that anti-vaxxism isn't going to matter that much; there's so few anti-vaxxers that we should easily manage to get to a her immunity threshold without having to dragoon the unwilling.
That is the sweetspot indeed, herd immunity through vaccination without coercion.
Personally, I think it's quite possible to achieve higher overall vaccination rates without coercion than with. I think leaving people with an element of choice reduces reactance and hence maximizes willing cooperation, even if the choice is 'if you want to be able to do x, then you must prove you've been vaccinated'
Absolutely spot on. Asking a neuroscientist about this is like asking me (an employment lawyer) to advise you on boundary disputes (which, TBF, my parents have been doing for 20 years...)
You could advise them to sack their legal counsel.
To them, I am their legal counsel.
That was the joke.
Sorry, my sense of humour was bypassed when I got admitted to the roll
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
It's such an odd thing to come into contact with one of the 5% of actual hardcore anti-vaxxers that doesn't post BTL on the Telegraph of Express.
Dura Ace is antivax as well. Which is really odd as he seems of a scientific bent, and is obviously smart
Intelligence is not correlated with anti-vaxxery, perhaps it is inversely correlated. Smart people are more likely to be paranoid? Hmm....
It's not down to Dura Ace being anti-vax. He's just a typical Leeds United fan - arrogantly thinks his body is able to fight anyone, anything, anywhere, any time.
I blame Don Revie.
Sounds like a Jack Russell terrier; something for which to blame the clergy.
We had a friend with a Jack Russell that got attacked by a Doberman.
Absolutely spot on. Asking a neuroscientist about this is like asking me (an employment lawyer) to advise you on boundary disputes (which, TBF, my parents have been doing for 20 years...)
Sounds like they should move to avoid the headache of whatever has been in dispute for 20 years!
Bother. I've got a boundary problem and was thinking of pm-ing for advice.
I have much sympathies. Even petty boundary disputes seem to drive people to years or decades of intense, all consuming fury and worry.
Worse than rights of way disputes even.
It's not really a boundary dispute TBH; someone has driven their Chelsea tractor into my fence. Hit the drive pedal instead of the brake apparently.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
It's such an odd thing to come into contact with one of the 5% of actual hardcore anti-vaxxers that doesn't post BTL on the Telegraph of Express.
Dura Ace is antivax as well. Which is really odd as he seems of a scientific bent, and is obviously smart
Intelligence is not correlated with anti-vaxxery, perhaps it is inversely correlated. Smart people are more likely to be paranoid? Hmm....
It's not down to Dura Ace being anti-vax. He's just a typical Leeds United fan - arrogantly thinks his body is able to fight anyone, anything, anywhere, any time.
I blame Don Revie.
Sounds like a Jack Russell terrier; something for which to blame the clergy.
It's a touch early to blame the clergy. Collectively they've sat on their hands for only 500 years of Sundays.
My other half volunteers at a vaccine site. They have been doing three days a week 9-5. From the week after next they are going 5/7 days a week and 8-8. Make of that what you will. Only one centre, but....
To infinity and beyond.....
They have already briefed that from next week it will be double this week. We should see some big daily numbers.
Its why I am not surprised NHS site is taking 55s bookings, as I expect they will publicly announce it over the weekend.
Cheers. That was where I was trying. I guess it's down to 55 now, so I have a little while longer to wait.
Thanks anyway.
It's a GREAT feeling when you get the booking. FINALLY there is real light at the end of this fucking long tunnel, which now appears a lot shorter. In four weeks' time I will be largely protected from this hideous disease, and I will also be protecting my friends and family
I can do four weeks. I can hack that. One month to freedom
I wonder if it is this mood boost which is driving the Tories' soaring polling.
One of my first reactions to getting the booking was Well done the government (and well done the NHS). My attitude towards Boris and Co has not been exactly positive of late, as my comments have shown, but now I have something to be thankful for: because the UK government, for all its terrible errors, really nailed the vaccination drive, when other countries did not
I can see how this would lead to a surge in support for HMG, given that 20 million+ people have been through this same mood-booster.
Absolutely spot on. Asking a neuroscientist about this is like asking me (an employment lawyer) to advise you on boundary disputes (which, TBF, my parents have been doing for 20 years...)
Sounds like they should move to avoid the headache of whatever has been in dispute for 20 years!
Bother. I've got a boundary problem and was thinking of pm-ing for advice.
Seriously - it would be like asking your dentist to perform heart surgery.
I know. Wasn't serious. TBH, it would probably be better to ask Mr Gallowgate. However, my insurance company has a firm of lawyers on tap and I thought I might as well get some value out of my policy so rang them. And got an answer which would have done justice to an economist...... one the one hand this...... but one other hand.....that. Essentially the chap advised me to sort it out without redress to the law.
That's really poor. I always say to trainees "take a view - tell the client what you think they should do. They'll like that. If you're right they'll graduate to loving you. If you're wrong the insurance poicy will pick it up. Just don't make it a multiple choice - that's not what you're being paid for."
I've always thought it fine to let out some options, and issues with them, but if asked for advice and you are able, indicate a clear preference and why.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
It's such an odd thing to come into contact with one of the 5% of actual hardcore anti-vaxxers that doesn't post BTL on the Telegraph of Express.
Dura Ace is antivax as well. Which is really odd as he seems of a scientific bent, and is obviously smart
Intelligence is not correlated with anti-vaxxery, perhaps it is inversely correlated. Smart people are more likely to be paranoid? Hmm....
It's not down to Dura Ace being anti-vax. He's just a typical Leeds United fan - arrogantly thinks his body is able to fight anyone, anything, anywhere, any time.
I blame Don Revie.
Sounds like a Jack Russell terrier; something for which to blame the clergy.
It's a touch early to blame the clergy. Collectively they've sat on their hands for only 500 years of Sundays.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
It's such an odd thing to come into contact with one of the 5% of actual hardcore anti-vaxxers that doesn't post BTL on the Telegraph of Express.
Dura Ace is antivax as well. Which is really odd as he seems of a scientific bent, and is obviously smart
Intelligence is not correlated with anti-vaxxery, perhaps it is inversely correlated. Smart people are more likely to be paranoid? Hmm....
It's not down to Dura Ace being anti-vax. He's just a typical Leeds United fan - arrogantly thinks his body is able to fight anyone, anything, anywhere, any time.
I blame Don Revie.
Sounds like a Jack Russell terrier; something for which to blame the clergy.
We had a friend with a Jack Russell that got attacked by a Doberman.
The Jack Russell castrated it.
We have two (big) German Shepherds and an Irish Jack Russell (shorter legs, black and tan, bred for companionship over ratting). He is extremely brave when the two shepherds are around, not so much when on his own. Although I did once see him attach to the rear leg of a deer and hold on as the deer took off over the field. It was about a half hour before I saw him again. Since then, he has had the honorific "The Elk Slayer" added to his name.
Cheers. That was where I was trying. I guess it's down to 55 now, so I have a little while longer to wait.
Thanks anyway.
It's a GREAT feeling when you get the booking. FINALLY there is real light at the end of this fucking long tunnel, which now appears a lot shorter. In four weeks' time I will be largely protected from this hideous disease, and I will also be protecting my friends and family
I can do four weeks. I can hack that. One month to freedom
I wonder if it is this mood boost which is driving the Tories' soaring polling.
One of my first reactions to getting the booking was Well done the government (and well done the NHS). My attitude towards Boris and Co has not been exactly positive of late, as my comments have shown, but now I have something to be thankful for: because the UK government, for all its terrible errors, really nailed the vaccination drive, when other countries did not
I can see how this would lead to a surge in support for HMG, given that 20 million+ people have been through this same mood-booster.
This is one area where our clunking and centralised NHS comes into its own. Everyone has an NHS number, everyone has a GP, resources can be allocated and bob's your uncle. The decentralised providers of France and Germany, much better perhaps in normal times, can't do that. Some German Lander, I was reading, require two factor authorisation through a website to book. I mean...come on...seriously?
Re the NHS website saying over 60s, but allowing 55-60s to book.
I have seen this previously with other groups. My guess the backend gets preloaded with a new cohort slightly in advance of a new public announcement e.g. we might see over the Sunday report that 55-60s is now all go go go from Monday, letters on their way etc.
Big shout out to NigelB for pushing PBers slightly to the front of the queue. Nice.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
It's such an odd thing to come into contact with one of the 5% of actual hardcore anti-vaxxers that doesn't post BTL on the Telegraph of Express.
Dura Ace is antivax as well. Which is really odd as he seems of a scientific bent, and is obviously smart
Intelligence is not correlated with anti-vaxxery, perhaps it is inversely correlated. Smart people are more likely to be paranoid? Hmm....
It's not down to Dura Ace being anti-vax. He's just a typical Leeds United fan - arrogantly thinks his body is able to fight anyone, anything, anywhere, any time.
I blame Don Revie.
Sounds like a Jack Russell terrier; something for which to blame the clergy.
It's a touch early to blame the clergy. Collectively they've sat on their hands for only 500 years of Sundays.
Originally bred by the Rev. J. Russell.
Who went to the same school I did. Although he was a few years ahead of me.
Cheers. That was where I was trying. I guess it's down to 55 now, so I have a little while longer to wait.
Thanks anyway.
It's a GREAT feeling when you get the booking. FINALLY there is real light at the end of this fucking long tunnel, which now appears a lot shorter. In four weeks' time I will be largely protected from this hideous disease, and I will also be protecting my friends and family
I can do four weeks. I can hack that. One month to freedom
I wonder if it is this mood boost which is driving the Tories' soaring polling.
One of my first reactions to getting the booking was Well done the government (and well done the NHS). My attitude towards Boris and Co has not been exactly positive of late, as my comments have shown, but now I have something to be thankful for: because the UK government, for all its terrible errors, really nailed the vaccination drive, when other countries did not
I can see how this would lead to a surge in support for HMG, given that 20 million+ people have been through this same mood-booster.
This is one area where our clunking and centralised NHS comes into its own. Everyone has an NHS number, everyone has a GP, resources can be allocated and bob's your uncle. The decentralised providers of France and Germany, much better perhaps in normal times, can't do that. Some German Lander, I was reading, require two factor authorisation through a website to book. I mean...come on...seriously?
Don't forget the story about because of German data protection laws and decentralised nature, they were having to guess ages for.some people, hoping that older sounding names equalled an old person.
Absolutely spot on. Asking a neuroscientist about this is like asking me (an employment lawyer) to advise you on boundary disputes (which, TBF, my parents have been doing for 20 years...)
Sounds like they should move to avoid the headache of whatever has been in dispute for 20 years!
Bother. I've got a boundary problem and was thinking of pm-ing for advice.
Seriously - it would be like asking your dentist to perform heart surgery.
I know. Wasn't serious. TBH, it would probably be better to ask Mr Gallowgate. However, my insurance company has a firm of lawyers on tap and I thought I might as well get some value out of my policy so rang them. And got an answer which would have done justice to an economist...... one the one hand this...... but one other hand.....that. Essentially the chap advised me to sort it out without redress to the law.
That's really poor. I always say to trainees "take a view - tell the client what you think they should do. They'll like that. If you're right they'll graduate to loving you. If you're wrong the insurance poicy will pick it up. Just don't make it a multiple choice - that's not what you're being paid for."
I've always thought it fine to let out some options, and issues with them, but if asked for advice and you are able, indicate a clear preference and why.
Yes - that's my view too. But experience has taught me that clients like to have a firm view. The problem with employment law is that it is full of what the "reasonable" employer should do. Which is no guidance at all.
The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.
If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.
I had this very same argument with a close antivaxxer friend. She loathes lockdown but won't have the jab. I tried to explain the logic: the vaccines are probably the only way, certainly the fastest way, OUT of lockdown
She just wouldn't buy it. Antivaxxery is a weird mental condition. She's far from stupid
Anyway, when she realises she can't travel anyway or work in many jobs or go to gigs or festivals or whatever, she will, I suspect, be forced to rethink
I am the last person to tell you not to have a vaccine. Have one. Me? I'll take my chances, thanks. Until I can pay to have one privately and confidentially. Which I may. Or may not.
I am not an anti-vaxxer, but I can fully understand the mentality behind it. The last 12 months have made it very difficult to trust the state. There has been so much constant haranguing, so many out and out lies (the casual interchange of 'cases' with 'positive tests', the insistence that 'cases' are going up at times when all available evidence points to the opposite), so much vitriol poured on anyone whose views questioned the orthodoxy in any mild way, so much overreach of state power (policing people sitting on park benches). To the slightly curious, it hasn't exactly felt like the state is on our side. Now, presumably the state's approach - they have form in this - is to decide that the only way they can make people to behave as they want is to exaggerate the threat ('if people won't believe the truth, we'll have to lie to them.'). They have form on this. But doing this pushes a small core of people not to co-operate at all. People feel like they're being manipulated, and people have an aversion to being manipulated. It has felt to some of us like the enthusiasm for lockdown measures has been out of all proportion to the benefit in controlling the disease. It's only a small jump from that to a conclusion that lockdowns are an end in themselves. And the obvious evidence of vaccines working isn't yet particularly exciting. All the indicators are that the virus is in retreat - but that was true ten months ago, and there wasn't a vaccine then. Deaths and positive tests among the oldies are declining - but not much, yet, in comparison to the unvaccinated population. Now I want to believe. I want to have hope. I'm looking desperately for evidence that vaccines work, and so I am happy to hear enthusiasm about them from well-informed voices on here. I will of course have the vaccine when it is offered - I have been vaccinated without qualms for other things. But if I wasn't already in a 'want to believe' mindset I could easily convince myself not to. I could easily convince myself that the state was not on my side. And I could easily convince myself that lockdowns are the end, not the means. As I say, I'm NOT in that mindset. But I can understand it.
I don't think the threat from Covid is exaggerated. Personally I know of two long coviders and 1 death, 37 no pre-existing. Maybe he was unlucky but I've never seen that range of outcomes remotely close with flu, ever. I'm getting it first opportunity.
To be clear, I'm not disputing that covid can be thoroughly nasty, particularly for the elderly (though not nearly as often as some would have us beleive). But there HAVE been exaggerations (both through ignorance and otherwise) in talking about its virulence. And there have been numerous examples of politicians and media claiming implausibly - demonstrably implausibly - outcomes in terms of the spread of the disease (particularly around lockdown 2). In all likelihood this is just because they didn't know what they were talking about, even six months into the pandemic. (The surprise and indignance every bloody Tuesday when death figures are higher after the weekend catchup - even many months in (I'm lookin at you, Piers bloody Morgan) has me metaphorically banging my head against a tree.)
Like you, I'll take the jab when I'm offered it and be glad it offers me a much lower chance of unpleasantness. But in all seriousness I'm on balance more frightened of the worrying expansion of state powers than I am of a serious illness. Offer me the jab, sure, I'll take it. Force me to have the jab, I may start to worry.
Excellent news. I have to say from a poor start due to a badly put together trial the AZ vaccine could end up being top of the class. I've been reading some private research on what I was talking about earlier this week on mixing the AZ and J&J jabs for 2 doses 12 weeks apart and some of the modelling says it could have the highest efficacy of any combination.
One of the things a colleague said to me sticks in my head - most of the vaccines are using the same spike protein, so ultimately its likely the effectiveness won't differ hugely (delivery methods may play a role). It is a shame that AZ stuffed up the trial, but all of this was done at speed, and we are now in Phase III+ - the real world. The emerging data is great, and I suspect the vaccines will be much of a muchness by the end.
Yes, that's what the research pointed out as well but there's some evidence now that the adenovirus vector gives a better long term immune response with a single jab compared to the mRNA Pfizer single dose. Using two different adenovirus vector vaccines (to avoid vector immunity) for two doses spaced 12 weeks apart could result in a very, very strong and long term immunity and keep t-cells primed for a very long time.
I really hope it's something that our scientists look into as both the AZ vaccine and J&J vaccine are easy to distribute and could provide protection from existing mutations as well between them.
Could an expert please explain why adenovirus vector may give better immunity (at least from one dose) than mRNA vector does?
The immune system will react to the adenovirus itself, as well as the COVID protein, thus attacking the vector and preventing it delivering the COVID protein, so the body then has no chance to develop immunity to COVID
I understand that but that should indicate that an adenovirus vector would be worse than the mRNA vector.
But instead it seems from one dose alone that might be the opposite? That the adenovirus vector may be better than the mRNA vector for one dose alone? That seems to be against expectations.
Re the NHS website saying over 60s, but allowing 55-60s to book.
I have seen this previously with other groups. My guess the backend gets preloaded with a new cohort slightly in advance of a new public announcement e.g. we might see over the Sunday report that 55-60s is now all go go go from Monday, letters on their way etc.
Big shout out to NigelB for pushing PBers slightly to the front of the queue. Nice.
When we get close to my cohort, i will be on that bad boy in advance of any public announcement. Happy to travel where ever / whenever to get it.
Cheers. That was where I was trying. I guess it's down to 55 now, so I have a little while longer to wait.
Thanks anyway.
It's a GREAT feeling when you get the booking. FINALLY there is real light at the end of this fucking long tunnel, which now appears a lot shorter. In four weeks' time I will be largely protected from this hideous disease, and I will also be protecting my friends and family
I can do four weeks. I can hack that. One month to freedom
I wonder if it is this mood boost which is driving the Tories' soaring polling.
One of my first reactions to getting the booking was Well done the government (and well done the NHS). My attitude towards Boris and Co has not been exactly positive of late, as my comments have shown, but now I have something to be thankful for: because the UK government, for all its terrible errors, really nailed the vaccination drive, when other countries did not
I can see how this would lead to a surge in support for HMG, given that 20 million+ people have been through this same mood-booster.
This is one area where our clunking and centralised NHS comes into its own. Everyone has an NHS number, everyone has a GP, resources can be allocated and bob's your uncle. The decentralised providers of France and Germany, much better perhaps in normal times, can't do that. Some German Lander, I was reading, require two factor authorisation through a website to book. I mean...come on...seriously?
German privacy rules are completely insane - so it really doesn't surprise me.
I'm aware of one project where the staff had to be anonymized and then random additional (but none relevant) skills add / removed to ensure people didn't pick their favourite staff members.
Cheers. That was where I was trying. I guess it's down to 55 now, so I have a little while longer to wait.
Thanks anyway.
It's a GREAT feeling when you get the booking. FINALLY there is real light at the end of this fucking long tunnel, which now appears a lot shorter. In four weeks' time I will be largely protected from this hideous disease, and I will also be protecting my friends and family
I can do four weeks. I can hack that. One month to freedom
I wonder if it is this mood boost which is driving the Tories' soaring polling.
One of my first reactions to getting the booking was Well done the government (and well done the NHS). My attitude towards Boris and Co has not been exactly positive of late, as my comments have shown, but now I have something to be thankful for: because the UK government, for all its terrible errors, really nailed the vaccination drive, when other countries did not
I can see how this would lead to a surge in support for HMG, given that 20 million+ people have been through this same mood-booster.
This is one area where our clunking and centralised NHS comes into its own. Everyone has an NHS number, everyone has a GP, resources can be allocated and bob's your uncle. The decentralised providers of France and Germany, much better perhaps in normal times, can't do that. Some German Lander, I was reading, require two factor authorisation through a website to book. I mean...come on...seriously?
Don't forget the story about because of German data protection laws and decentralised nature, they were having to guess ages for.some people, hoping that older sounding names equalled an old person.
It's a crisis. Get the passport application records out FFS. What are national ID cards for anyway?
Jeesh...I'm starting to sound like a Brexiter. I need a lie down.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
Interesting. Just before I read your post I had completed an article on how "No Jab/No Job" policies are likely to be lawful and commonplace in a few months. As you say, though, your decision.
The government should not insist "no jab/no job" but if an employer desires to do so then that is entirely libertarian.
But the government is an employer. The biggest one in the country. So, jab needed to work in a public sector office c.f. jab needed to work in a private sector office - the first is an ethical problem but the second isn't? Can't quite see the logic there tbh.
No there's a difference between the state as an employer setting rules for its employees and the government as lawmakers setting rules for everyone.
The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.
If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.
I had this very same argument with a close antivaxxer friend. She loathes lockdown but won't have the jab. I tried to explain the logic: the vaccines are probably the only way, certainly the fastest way, OUT of lockdown
She just wouldn't buy it. Antivaxxery is a weird mental condition. She's far from stupid
Anyway, when she realises she can't travel anyway or work in many jobs or go to gigs or festivals or whatever, she will, I suspect, be forced to rethink
I am the last person to tell you not to have a vaccine. Have one. Me? I'll take my chances, thanks. Until I can pay to have one privately and confidentially. Which I may. Or may not.
I am not an anti-vaxxer, but I can fully understand the mentality behind it. The last 12 months have made it very difficult to trust the state. There has been so much constant haranguing, so many out and out lies (the casual interchange of 'cases' with 'positive tests', the insistence that 'cases' are going up at times when all available evidence points to the opposite), so much vitriol poured on anyone whose views questioned the orthodoxy in any mild way, so much overreach of state power (policing people sitting on park benches). To the slightly curious, it hasn't exactly felt like the state is on our side. Now, presumably the state's approach - they have form in this - is to decide that the only way they can make people to behave as they want is to exaggerate the threat ('if people won't believe the truth, we'll have to lie to them.'). They have form on this. But doing this pushes a small core of people not to co-operate at all. People feel like they're being manipulated, and people have an aversion to being manipulated. It has felt to some of us like the enthusiasm for lockdown measures has been out of all proportion to the benefit in controlling the disease. It's only a small jump from that to a conclusion that lockdowns are an end in themselves. And the obvious evidence of vaccines working isn't yet particularly exciting. All the indicators are that the virus is in retreat - but that was true ten months ago, and there wasn't a vaccine then. Deaths and positive tests among the oldies are declining - but not much, yet, in comparison to the unvaccinated population. Now I want to believe. I want to have hope. I'm looking desperately for evidence that vaccines work, and so I am happy to hear enthusiasm about them from well-informed voices on here. I will of course have the vaccine when it is offered - I have been vaccinated without qualms for other things. But if I wasn't already in a 'want to believe' mindset I could easily convince myself not to. I could easily convince myself that the state was not on my side. And I could easily convince myself that lockdowns are the end, not the means. As I say, I'm NOT in that mindset. But I can understand it.
I don't think the threat from Covid is exaggerated. Personally I know of two long coviders and 1 death, 37 no pre-existing. Maybe he was unlucky but I've never seen that range of outcomes remotely close with flu, ever. I'm getting it first opportunity.
To be clear, I'm not disputing that covid can be thoroughly nasty, particularly for the elderly (though not nearly as often as some would have us beleive). But there HAVE been exaggerations (both through ignorance and otherwise) in talking about its virulence. And there have been numerous examples of politicians and media claiming implausibly - demonstrably implausibly - outcomes in terms of the spread of the disease (particularly around lockdown 2). In all likelihood this is just because they didn't know what they were talking about, even six months into the pandemic. (The surprise and indignance every bloody Tuesday when death figures are higher after the weekend catchup - even many months in (I'm lookin at you, Piers bloody Morgan) has me metaphorically banging my head against a tree.)
Like you, I'll take the jab when I'm offered it and be glad it offers me a much lower chance of unpleasantness. But in all seriousness I'm on balance more frightened of the worrying expansion of state powers than I am of a serious illness. Offer me the jab, sure, I'll take it. Force me to have the jab, I may start to worry.
Set conditions for exiting the country, I begin to get very, very worried.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
It's such an odd thing to come into contact with one of the 5% of actual hardcore anti-vaxxers that doesn't post BTL on the Telegraph of Express.
Dura Ace is antivax as well. Which is really odd as he seems of a scientific bent, and is obviously smart
Intelligence is not correlated with anti-vaxxery, perhaps it is inversely correlated. Smart people are more likely to be paranoid? Hmm....
It's not down to Dura Ace being anti-vax. He's just a typical Leeds United fan - arrogantly thinks his body is able to fight anyone, anything, anywhere, any time.
I blame Don Revie.
Sounds like a Jack Russell terrier; something for which to blame the clergy.
It's a touch early to blame the clergy. Collectively they've sat on their hands for only 500 years of Sundays.
Originally bred by the Rev. J. Russell.
Who went to the same school I did. Although he was a few years ahead of me.
The only remotely famous people who went to my school were Freddie Laker and Milo Yiannopoulos.
Ah, I was just going by what Leon implied earlier.
You ignore that and push through. It worked for me. Got an appointment in seconds. Indeed I had a luxurious choice of jabbing centres, from Marylebone to Bloomsbury to the new Francis Crick Institute. I chose the last because it's an impressive building but I've never been inside
Life is returning!
I've just got mine done there literally one hour ago. Left arm upper, administered by a quietly charismatic young woman who oozed low key professionalism. Nothing dramatic about it. No fireworks at all. Didn't even have to take my tweed cap off. I nevertheless felt a sense of occasion, I truly did. What a result. It's been emotional and it's almost over.
Cheers. That was where I was trying. I guess it's down to 55 now, so I have a little while longer to wait.
Thanks anyway.
It's a GREAT feeling when you get the booking. FINALLY there is real light at the end of this fucking long tunnel, which now appears a lot shorter. In four weeks' time I will be largely protected from this hideous disease, and I will also be protecting my friends and family
I can do four weeks. I can hack that. One month to freedom
I wonder if it is this mood boost which is driving the Tories' soaring polling.
One of my first reactions to getting the booking was Well done the government (and well done the NHS). My attitude towards Boris and Co has not been exactly positive of late, as my comments have shown, but now I have something to be thankful for: because the UK government, for all its terrible errors, really nailed the vaccination drive, when other countries did not
I can see how this would lead to a surge in support for HMG, given that 20 million+ people have been through this same mood-booster.
My wife (45 but asthmatic) is getting jabbed tomorrow. I feel exactly the same. It feels absolutely brilliant.
Ah, I was just going by what Leon implied earlier.
You ignore that and push through. It worked for me. Got an appointment in seconds. Indeed I had a luxurious choice of jabbing centres, from Marylebone to Bloomsbury to the new Francis Crick Institute. I chose the last because it's an impressive building but I've never been inside
Life is returning!
I've just got mine done there literally one hour ago. Left arm upper, administered by a quietly charismatic young woman who oozed low key professionalism. Nothing dramatic about it. No fireworks at all. Didn't even have to take my tweed cap off. I nevertheless felt a sense of occasion, I truly did. What a result. It's been emotional and it's almost over.
That's wonderful, although how one 'oozes' low key professionalism I have no idea.
One advantage of booking via NHS website is you book both your appointments then and there.
If you go via GP invitation, some are doing this, others aren't e.g. my father hasn't heard a word yet about his 2nd jab, despite it coming up to 9 weeks, which is stressing him out a bit.
Cheers. That was where I was trying. I guess it's down to 55 now, so I have a little while longer to wait.
Thanks anyway.
It's a GREAT feeling when you get the booking. FINALLY there is real light at the end of this fucking long tunnel, which now appears a lot shorter. In four weeks' time I will be largely protected from this hideous disease, and I will also be protecting my friends and family
I can do four weeks. I can hack that. One month to freedom
I wonder if it is this mood boost which is driving the Tories' soaring polling.
One of my first reactions to getting the booking was Well done the government (and well done the NHS). My attitude towards Boris and Co has not been exactly positive of late, as my comments have shown, but now I have something to be thankful for: because the UK government, for all its terrible errors, really nailed the vaccination drive, when other countries did not
I can see how this would lead to a surge in support for HMG, given that 20 million+ people have been through this same mood-booster.
I can ay my mood has been hugely lifted - and I wasn't aware of feeling in any way down
Ah, I was just going by what Leon implied earlier.
You ignore that and push through. It worked for me. Got an appointment in seconds. Indeed I had a luxurious choice of jabbing centres, from Marylebone to Bloomsbury to the new Francis Crick Institute. I chose the last because it's an impressive building but I've never been inside
Life is returning!
I've just got mine done there literally one hour ago. Left arm upper, administered by a quietly charismatic young woman who oozed low key professionalism. Nothing dramatic about it. No fireworks at all. Didn't even have to take my tweed cap off. I nevertheless felt a sense of occasion, I truly did. What a result. It's been emotional and it's almost over.
"charismatic young woman who oozed" will be the one Leon wants.....
Ah, I was just going by what Leon implied earlier.
You ignore that and push through. It worked for me. Got an appointment in seconds. Indeed I had a luxurious choice of jabbing centres, from Marylebone to Bloomsbury to the new Francis Crick Institute. I chose the last because it's an impressive building but I've never been inside
Life is returning!
I've just got mine done there literally one hour ago. Left arm upper, administered by a quietly charismatic young woman who oozed low key professionalism. Nothing dramatic about it. No fireworks at all. Didn't even have to take my tweed cap off. I nevertheless felt a sense of occasion, I truly did. What a result. It's been emotional and it's almost over.
Where in the Salmond timeline is 17 December 2018? How much longer did the case go on after Roddy Dunlop QC & Co described it as "ploughing on regardless"?
One advantage of booking via NHS website is you book both your appointments then and there.
If you go via GP invitation, some are doing this, others aren't e.g. my father hasn't heard a word yet about his 2nd jab, despite it coming up to 9 weeks, which is stressing him out a bit.
GPs seem to be faffing about with group 6, deciding people shouldn't be eligible when they've been allocated to that group.
Chief executive Sarah Woolnough said:
“We know that there are different interpretations of the official guidance from GP surgery staff and we’re not sure why exactly this is happening.
Ah, I was just going by what Leon implied earlier.
You ignore that and push through. It worked for me. Got an appointment in seconds. Indeed I had a luxurious choice of jabbing centres, from Marylebone to Bloomsbury to the new Francis Crick Institute. I chose the last because it's an impressive building but I've never been inside
Life is returning!
I've just got mine done there literally one hour ago. Left arm upper, administered by a quietly charismatic young woman who oozed low key professionalism. Nothing dramatic about it. No fireworks at all. Didn't even have to take my tweed cap off. I nevertheless felt a sense of occasion, I truly did. What a result. It's been emotional and it's almost over.
Well done. As well as being pleased that you're now developing antibodies, you have done something slightly brave for the rest of us. So you're emotional reaction is quite justified. Every story I hear like this makes me a little bit emotional. People bravely doing something public spirited to bring the end closer. Pleased you managed to carry it out in style.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
It's such an odd thing to come into contact with one of the 5% of actual hardcore anti-vaxxers that doesn't post BTL on the Telegraph of Express.
Dura Ace is antivax as well. Which is really odd as he seems of a scientific bent, and is obviously smart
Intelligence is not correlated with anti-vaxxery, perhaps it is inversely correlated. Smart people are more likely to be paranoid? Hmm....
It's not down to Dura Ace being anti-vax. He's just a typical Leeds United fan - arrogantly thinks his body is able to fight anyone, anything, anywhere, any time.
I blame Don Revie.
Sounds like a Jack Russell terrier; something for which to blame the clergy.
It's a touch early to blame the clergy. Collectively they've sat on their hands for only 500 years of Sundays.
Originally bred by the Rev. J. Russell.
Who went to the same school I did. Although he was a few years ahead of me.
The only remotely famous people who went to my school were Freddie Laker and Milo Yiannopoulos.
I'm sorry to have to admit that Peter Bone went to the school which I did. However, it was after I did, so clearly standards had slipped!
Forgoing the vaccine should be everyone’s libertarian choice. Equally it should be the taxpayers’ choice not to give them healthcare in our hospitals or their kids an education in our schools. Scared of the big bad state, well it cuts both ways matey.
Do they then get to pay no tax?
in reality its stupid talking in these extremes given even you would balk at kids being denied education for their parents actions
I would 100% ban any kid from attending school or an early years setting that was not fully up to date with their vaccines. I’ve lived somewhere where this was the rule and it worked well. That you think it’s extreme or stupid says rather a lot.
and it says a lot about you frankly
It is the case in DC. No vax, no access to public schools. Students and teachers.
Not a massive fan of the USA though in many respects
Everything is heading in the right direction, and levels of immunity in the population keep on growing as everyone who's been jabbed in the last couple of weeks builds up antibodies.
One advantage of booking via NHS website is you book both your appointments then and there.
If you go via GP invitation, some are doing this, others aren't e.g. my father hasn't heard a word yet about his 2nd jab, despite it coming up to 9 weeks, which is stressing him out a bit.
I'm in the same position. By coincidence, I've just enquired of them
Excellent news. I have to say from a poor start due to a badly put together trial the AZ vaccine could end up being top of the class. I've been reading some private research on what I was talking about earlier this week on mixing the AZ and J&J jabs for 2 doses 12 weeks apart and some of the modelling says it could have the highest efficacy of any combination.
One of the things a colleague said to me sticks in my head - most of the vaccines are using the same spike protein, so ultimately its likely the effectiveness won't differ hugely (delivery methods may play a role). It is a shame that AZ stuffed up the trial, but all of this was done at speed, and we are now in Phase III+ - the real world. The emerging data is great, and I suspect the vaccines will be much of a muchness by the end.
Yes, that's what the research pointed out as well but there's some evidence now that the adenovirus vector gives a better long term immune response with a single jab compared to the mRNA Pfizer single dose. Using two different adenovirus vector vaccines (to avoid vector immunity) for two doses spaced 12 weeks apart could result in a very, very strong and long term immunity and keep t-cells primed for a very long time.
I really hope it's something that our scientists look into as both the AZ vaccine and J&J vaccine are easy to distribute and could provide protection from existing mutations as well between them.
Could an expert please explain why adenovirus vector may give better immunity (at least from one dose) than mRNA vector does?
The immune system will react to the adenovirus itself, as well as the COVID protein, thus attacking the vector and preventing it delivering the COVID protein, so the body then has no chance to develop immunity to COVID
I understand that but that should indicate that an adenovirus vector would be worse than the mRNA vector.
But instead it seems from one dose alone that might be the opposite? That the adenovirus vector may be better than the mRNA vector for one dose alone? That seems to be against expectations.
No, on the first dose there would be no expectation that it would be worse, as the body would not have had previous exposure to the viral vector, and hence would have no adaptive immune response to it (antibodies, T-cells) before it had done its job of delivering the viral genetic material for the host to produce and provoke the immune response to COVID.
How effective any particular vaccine is is part science and part art at the moment. We know what antigens we want the body to target, and we know we want to provoke a strong response. Quite how to do the latter part is where the art mixes with the science. Off the top of my head I can think of two factors that contribute to differences in efficacy numbers:
1. Adjuvants are used to boost the strength of the immune response, and some of these are proprietary 2. The different delivery vehicles (artificial lipid membranes for mRNA and protein vaccines, 'natural' viral membranes for viral vectors) might have different levels of efficiency of delivering the load into the cell via different efficiency levels of fusing with the cell membrane.
These are me speculating without looking up the literature. I'd happily be corrected by Max or Nigel or others with better knowledge.
Ah, I was just going by what Leon implied earlier.
You ignore that and push through. It worked for me. Got an appointment in seconds. Indeed I had a luxurious choice of jabbing centres, from Marylebone to Bloomsbury to the new Francis Crick Institute. I chose the last because it's an impressive building but I've never been inside
Life is returning!
I've just got mine done there literally one hour ago. Left arm upper, administered by a quietly charismatic young woman who oozed low key professionalism. Nothing dramatic about it. No fireworks at all. Didn't even have to take my tweed cap off. I nevertheless felt a sense of occasion, I truly did. What a result. It's been emotional and it's almost over.
You wore a hat.... indoors..?
Moderator - is there an appropriate punishment that can be levelled?
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
It's such an odd thing to come into contact with one of the 5% of actual hardcore anti-vaxxers that doesn't post BTL on the Telegraph of Express.
Dura Ace is antivax as well. Which is really odd as he seems of a scientific bent, and is obviously smart
Intelligence is not correlated with anti-vaxxery, perhaps it is inversely correlated. Smart people are more likely to be paranoid? Hmm....
It's not down to Dura Ace being anti-vax. He's just a typical Leeds United fan - arrogantly thinks his body is able to fight anyone, anything, anywhere, any time.
I blame Don Revie.
Sounds like a Jack Russell terrier; something for which to blame the clergy.
It's a touch early to blame the clergy. Collectively they've sat on their hands for only 500 years of Sundays.
Originally bred by the Rev. J. Russell.
Who went to the same school I did. Although he was a few years ahead of me.
The only remotely famous people who went to my school were Freddie Laker and Milo Yiannopoulos.
I'm sorry to have to admit that Peter Bone went to the school which I did. However, it was after I did, so clearly standards had slipped!
Ah, I was just going by what Leon implied earlier.
You ignore that and push through. It worked for me. Got an appointment in seconds. Indeed I had a luxurious choice of jabbing centres, from Marylebone to Bloomsbury to the new Francis Crick Institute. I chose the last because it's an impressive building but I've never been inside
Life is returning!
I've just got mine done there literally one hour ago. Left arm upper, administered by a quietly charismatic young woman who oozed low key professionalism. Nothing dramatic about it. No fireworks at all. Didn't even have to take my tweed cap off. I nevertheless felt a sense of occasion, I truly did. What a result. It's been emotional and it's almost over.
Congratulations! If in two weeks you're on here with Union Jacks in your avatar telling us that Maggie wasn't all bad really, we'll know that the jab's working as intended...
Ah, I was just going by what Leon implied earlier.
You ignore that and push through. It worked for me. Got an appointment in seconds. Indeed I had a luxurious choice of jabbing centres, from Marylebone to Bloomsbury to the new Francis Crick Institute. I chose the last because it's an impressive building but I've never been inside
Life is returning!
I've just got mine done there literally one hour ago. Left arm upper, administered by a quietly charismatic young woman who oozed low key professionalism. Nothing dramatic about it. No fireworks at all. Didn't even have to take my tweed cap off. I nevertheless felt a sense of occasion, I truly did. What a result. It's been emotional and it's almost over.
You wore a hat.... indoors..?
Moderator - is there an appropriate punishment that can be levelled?
Three consecutive life sentences in a small room at an Embassy, also inhabited by Julian Assange, Pier Corbyn and Piers Morgan. With only access to Conservative Home for entertainment. Only food is pizza on pineapple. Radiohead will be played non-stop.
Comments
So, jab needed to work in a public sector office c.f. jab needed to work in a private sector office - the first is an ethical problem but the second isn't?
Can't quite see the logic there tbh.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-vaccination/book-coronavirus-vaccination/
So, plumbers, painters, builders, decoraters, Sky repairmen, boiler repair. Maybe even estate agents.
The list will be much longer than kinabalu realises.
One mother wrote back that her child really liked such sandwiches and it was down to the school to make sure that affected child was protected, not her.
Life is returning!
It's not exactly lose/lose, is it?
I have seen this previously with other groups. My guess the backend gets preloaded with a new cohort slightly in advance of a new public announcement e.g. we might see over the Sunday report that 55-60s is now all go go go from Monday, letters on their way etc.
Thanks anyway.
Now I'm pretty libertarian anyway (despite having a public sector job). So maybe I'm more disinclined than most to perceive the state as benign. But still, I can see why some people have become more suspicious of stat motives.
It may well be of course that the way the government has done it has hit the sweet spot. Had they pushed less hard, maybe fewer who would feel manipulated but maybe more would have been disinclined to change their behaviours. It's not something we can ever have a control for.
In reality, we're in the happy position that anti-vaxxism isn't going to matter that much; there's so few anti-vaxxers that we should easily manage to get to a her immunity threshold without having to dragoon the unwilling.
Worse than rights of way disputes even.
Essentially the chap advised me to sort it out without redress to the law.
In fairness it usually is best to avoid legal avenues if at all possible. Escalation ramps up like crazy when lawyers are brought on, even if the lawyer does not want that!
If a plumber comes to my house to do some plumbing, it doesn't matter whether he has had a jab or not because I have. And if I haven't, then that's my responsibility, not his.
I appreciate I am oversimplifying wildly.
Personally, I think it's quite possible to achieve higher overall vaccination rates without coercion than with. I think leaving people with an element of choice reduces reactance and hence maximizes willing cooperation, even if the choice is 'if you want to be able to do x, then you must prove you've been vaccinated'
The Jack Russell castrated it.
First AND second doses booked - first next Friday
GET IN!!!!!!
They have already briefed that from next week it will be double this week. We should see some big daily numbers.
Its why I am not surprised NHS site is taking 55s bookings, as I expect they will publicly announce it over the weekend.
I can do four weeks. I can hack that. One month to freedom
I wonder if it is this mood boost which is driving the Tories' soaring polling.
One of my first reactions to getting the booking was Well done the government (and well done the NHS). My attitude towards Boris and Co has not been exactly positive of late, as my comments have shown, but now I have something to be thankful for: because the UK government, for all its terrible errors, really nailed the vaccination drive, when other countries did not
I can see how this would lead to a surge in support for HMG, given that 20 million+ people have been through this same mood-booster.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56298931
Lock em up, lock em up, lock em up....
In all likelihood this is just because they didn't know what they were talking about, even six months into the pandemic. (The surprise and indignance every bloody Tuesday when death figures are higher after the weekend catchup - even many months in (I'm lookin at you, Piers bloody Morgan) has me metaphorically banging my head against a tree.)
Like you, I'll take the jab when I'm offered it and be glad it offers me a much lower chance of unpleasantness.
But in all seriousness I'm on balance more frightened of the worrying expansion of state powers than I am of a serious illness. Offer me the jab, sure, I'll take it. Force me to have the jab, I may start to worry.
But instead it seems from one dose alone that might be the opposite? That the adenovirus vector may be better than the mRNA vector for one dose alone? That seems to be against expectations.
https://twitter.com/ComeToGhana/status/1367852707344683013
I'm aware of one project where the staff had to be anonymized and then random additional (but none relevant) skills add / removed to ensure people didn't pick their favourite staff members.
Deaths down 33.6%
Patients admissions down 29%
Very very encouraging numbers.
Jeesh...I'm starting to sound like a Brexiter. I need a lie down.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-56290106 Travellers must fill new form to leave England
If you go via GP invitation, some are doing this, others aren't e.g. my father hasn't heard a word yet about his 2nd jab, despite it coming up to 9 weeks, which is stressing him out a bit.
https://twitter.com/ColSMal/status/1367864595101200388?s=20
Wonder why they didn't release it earlier?
Chief executive Sarah Woolnough said:
“We know that there are different interpretations of the official guidance from GP surgery staff and we’re not sure why exactly this is happening.
Not very good.
As well as being pleased that you're now developing antibodies, you have done something slightly brave for the rest of us. So you're emotional reaction is quite justified.
Every story I hear like this makes me a little bit emotional. People bravely doing something public spirited to bring the end closer.
Pleased you managed to carry it out in style.
How effective any particular vaccine is is part science and part art at the moment. We know what antigens we want the body to target, and we know we want to provoke a strong response. Quite how to do the latter part is where the art mixes with the science. Off the top of my head I can think of two factors that contribute to differences in efficacy numbers:
1. Adjuvants are used to boost the strength of the immune response, and some of these are proprietary
2. The different delivery vehicles (artificial lipid membranes for mRNA and protein vaccines, 'natural' viral membranes for viral vectors) might have different levels of efficiency of delivering the load into the cell via different efficiency levels of fusing with the cell membrane.
These are me speculating without looking up the literature. I'd happily be corrected by Max or Nigel or others with better knowledge.
Moderator - is there an appropriate punishment that can be levelled?