The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.
If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.
I had this very same argument with a close antivaxxer friend. She loathes lockdown but won't have the jab. I tried to explain the logic: the vaccines are probably the only way, certainly the fastest way, OUT of lockdown
She just wouldn't buy it. Antivaxxery is a weird mental condition. She's far from stupid
Anyway, when she realises she can't travel anyway or work in many jobs or go to gigs or festivals or whatever, she will, I suspect, be forced to rethink
I am the last person to tell you not to have a vaccine. Have one. Me? I'll take my chances, thanks. Until I can pay to have one privately and confidentially. Which I may. Or may not.
I am not an anti-vaxxer, but I can fully understand the mentality behind it. The last 12 months have made it very difficult to trust the state. There has been so much constant haranguing, so many out and out lies (the casual interchange of 'cases' with 'positive tests', the insistence that 'cases' are going up at times when all available evidence points to the opposite), so much vitriol poured on anyone whose views questioned the orthodoxy in any mild way, so much overreach of state power (policing people sitting on park benches). To the slightly curious, it hasn't exactly felt like the state is on our side. Now, presumably the state's approach - they have form in this - is to decide that the only way they can make people to behave as they want is to exaggerate the threat ('if people won't believe the truth, we'll have to lie to them.'). They have form on this. But doing this pushes a small core of people not to co-operate at all. People feel like they're being manipulated, and people have an aversion to being manipulated. It has felt to some of us like the enthusiasm for lockdown measures has been out of all proportion to the benefit in controlling the disease. It's only a small jump from that to a conclusion that lockdowns are an end in themselves. And the obvious evidence of vaccines working isn't yet particularly exciting. All the indicators are that the virus is in retreat - but that was true ten months ago, and there wasn't a vaccine then. Deaths and positive tests among the oldies are declining - but not much, yet, in comparison to the unvaccinated population. Now I want to believe. I want to have hope. I'm looking desperately for evidence that vaccines work, and so I am happy to hear enthusiasm about them from well-informed voices on here. I will of course have the vaccine when it is offered - I have been vaccinated without qualms for other things. But if I wasn't already in a 'want to believe' mindset I could easily convince myself not to. I could easily convince myself that the state was not on my side. And I could easily convince myself that lockdowns are the end, not the means. As I say, I'm NOT in that mindset. But I can understand it.
The interesting thing will be to see if the numbers stay high. The indications that we have been given was that this week would be bad but next week was when it would change. Good measure of how accurate their forecasting is.
I remember reading [perhaps on here?] a couple of days ago that when the SG was told by HMG to redact its Vaccination Deployment Plan, one of the pertinent items was the fact that delivery of the Moderna tax was going to kick in in early April. If true, this could help immensely.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
Instead, you are relying on the rest of us to be vaccinated, to get you out of lockdown. I'm happy to do that for you, but your argument is neither persuasive nor principled.
And you are relying on me and people like me to keep paying higher rate taxes in spades so that when the NHS is needed, it is there for you and everybody. And the rest of the welfare state.
You are relying on me to keep working in the UK and paying taxes in the UK, but having people all over the world use and pay for my services, so the money keeps flowing in. Which I am happy to do.
And so frankly you know where you can stick your bullsh*t lecture.
Hmm, there are a lot of additional rate tax payers on PB and we're all getting the vaccine. In fact of those that I know on here I'm probably one of the few that hasn't had it yet and I'm just waiting patiently for my turn.
Paying tax has nothing to do with getting or not getting a vaccine. You're a complete and utter fool.
He is, but I've given up trying to make him see sense. I begin to wonder if he is even 'real' or just on the wind up. Sad if he is - what a waste of time!
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
Instead, you are relying on the rest of us to be vaccinated, to get you out of lockdown. I'm happy to do that for you, but your argument is neither persuasive nor principled.
And you are relying on me and people like me to keep paying higher rate taxes in spades so that when the NHS is needed, it is there for you and everybody. And the rest of the welfare state.
You are relying on me to keep working in the UK and paying taxes in the UK, but having people all over the world use and pay for my services, so the money keeps flowing in. Which I am happy to do.
And so frankly you know where you can stick your bullsh*t lecture.
Hmm, there are a lot of additional rate tax payers on PB and we're all getting the vaccine. In fact of those that I know on here I'm probably one of the few that hasn't had it yet and I'm just waiting patiently for my turn.
Paying tax has nothing to do with getting or not getting a vaccine. You're a complete and utter fool.
I know that.
Here's me encouraging and supporting you in your quest to get a vaccine. I may get one myself. In my own time.
Until then, enjoy evading anyone with similar views to yourself.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
Instead, you are relying on the rest of us to be vaccinated, to get you out of lockdown. I'm happy to do that for you, but your argument is neither persuasive nor principled.
And you are relying on me and people like me to keep paying higher rate taxes in spades so that when the NHS is needed, it is there for you and everybody. And the rest of the welfare state.
You are relying on me to keep working in the UK and paying taxes in the UK, but having people all over the world use and pay for my services, so the money keeps flowing in. Which I am happy to do.
And so frankly you know where you can stick your bullsh*t lecture.
Hmm, there are a lot of additional rate tax payers on PB and we're all getting the vaccine. In fact of those that I know on here I'm probably one of the few that hasn't had it yet and I'm just waiting patiently for my turn.
Paying tax has nothing to do with getting or not getting a vaccine. You're a complete and utter fool.
He is, but I've given up trying to make him see sense. I begin to wonder if he is even 'real' or just on the wind up. Sad if he is - what a waste of time!
Look at his user name - he plays a game and does it often
The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.
If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.
Until a strain comes along, that, as discussed in parliament the other day by the lords and by many scientists, evades the current vaccine. Time for another lockdown, followed by another vaccine.
The scientific consensus is emerging that new variants may evade antibody protection but are very unlikely indeed to evade T-Cell immunity for all time. Here's something from one of those evil members of SAGE you love to imagine stroking white cats under dormant volcanos -
I don't see why there should be a "substantial" degree of Covid deaths. We need 93-95% to keep measles suppressed. We are seeing that level of take up of the Covid vaccine in the over 70's. I suspect it will be that for all age groups, but the "substantial" deaths are only in those upper age bands.
To keep the Covid fires stoked, you are effectively going to need all the unvaccinated meeting up to pass it on to themselves. And if they do - that is choice they have made, however stupid their pool of knowledge.
Define "substantial" I guess. If you are right (indeed you may well be) then he is going to have had a spot of media training. To the untrained ear a few thousand every year (which is what a normal flu season is) is pretty substantial.
The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.
If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.
I had this very same argument with a close antivaxxer friend. She loathes lockdown but won't have the jab. I tried to explain the logic: the vaccines are probably the only way, certainly the fastest way, OUT of lockdown
She just wouldn't buy it. Antivaxxery is a weird mental condition. She's far from stupid
Anyway, when she realises she can't travel anyway or work in many jobs or go to gigs or festivals or whatever, she will, I suspect, be forced to rethink
I am the last person to tell you not to have a vaccine. Have one. Me? I'll take my chances, thanks. Until I can pay to have one privately and confidentially. Which I may. Or may not.
I am not an anti-vaxxer, but I can fully understand the mentality behind it. The last 12 months have made it very difficult to trust the state. There has been so much constant haranguing, so many out and out lies (the casual interchange of 'cases' with 'positive tests', the insistence that 'cases' are going up at times when all available evidence points to the opposite), so much vitriol poured on anyone whose views questioned the orthodoxy in any mild way, so much overreach of state power (policing people sitting on park benches). To the slightly curious, it hasn't exactly felt like the state is on our side. Now, presumably the state's approach - they have form in this - is to decide that the only way they can make people to behave as they want is to exaggerate the threat ('if people won't believe the truth, we'll have to lie to them.'). They have form on this. But doing this pushes a small core of people not to co-operate at all. People feel like they're being manipulated, and people have an aversion to being manipulated. It has felt to some of us like the enthusiasm for lockdown measures has been out of all proportion to the benefit in controlling the disease. It's only a small jump from that to a conclusion that lockdowns are an end in themselves. And the obvious evidence of vaccines working isn't yet particularly exciting. All the indicators are that the virus is in retreat - but that was true ten months ago, and there wasn't a vaccine then. Deaths and positive tests among the oldies are declining - but not much, yet, in comparison to the unvaccinated population. Now I want to believe. I want to have hope. I'm looking desperately for evidence that vaccines work, and so I am happy to hear enthusiasm about them from well-informed voices on here. I will of course have the vaccine when it is offered - I have been vaccinated without qualms for other things. But if I wasn't already in a 'want to believe' mindset I could easily convince myself not to. I could easily convince myself that the state was not on my side. And I could easily convince myself that lockdowns are the end, not the means. As I say, I'm NOT in that mindset. But I can understand it.
I don't think the threat from Covid is exaggerated. Personally I know of two long coviders and 1 death, 37 no pre-existing. Maybe he was unlucky but I've never seen that range of outcomes remotely close with flu, ever. I'm getting it first opportunity.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
Instead, you are relying on the rest of us to be vaccinated, to get you out of lockdown. I'm happy to do that for you, but your argument is neither persuasive nor principled.
And you are relying on me and people like me to keep paying higher rate taxes in spades so that when the NHS is needed, it is there for you and everybody. And the rest of the welfare state.
You are relying on me to keep working in the UK and paying taxes in the UK, but having people all over the world use and pay for my services, so the money keeps flowing in. Which I am happy to do.
And so frankly you know where you can stick your bullsh*t lecture.
Hmm, there are a lot of additional rate tax payers on PB and we're all getting the vaccine. In fact of those that I know on here I'm probably one of the few that hasn't had it yet and I'm just waiting patiently for my turn.
Paying tax has nothing to do with getting or not getting a vaccine. You're a complete and utter fool.
I know that.
Here's me encouraging and supporting you in your quest to get a vaccine. I may get one myself. In my own time.
You can only hope that you don't catch Covid19 in the meantime. You do realise that it can kill....?
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
Excellent news. I have to say from a poor start due to a badly put together trial the AZ vaccine could end up being top of the class. I've been reading some private research on what I was talking about earlier this week on mixing the AZ and J&J jabs for 2 doses 12 weeks apart and some of the modelling says it could have the highest efficacy of any combination.
One of the things a colleague said to me sticks in my head - most of the vaccines are using the same spike protein, so ultimately its likely the effectiveness won't differ hugely (delivery methods may play a role). It is a shame that AZ stuffed up the trial, but all of this was done at speed, and we are now in Phase III+ - the real world. The emerging data is great, and I suspect the vaccines will be much of a muchness by the end.
Yes, that's what the research pointed out as well but there's some evidence now that the adenovirus vector gives a better long term immune response with a single jab compared to the mRNA Pfizer single dose. Using two different adenovirus vector vaccines (to avoid vector immunity) for two doses spaced 12 weeks apart could result in a very, very strong and long term immunity and keep t-cells primed for a very long time.
I really hope it's something that our scientists look into as both the AZ vaccine and J&J vaccine are easy to distribute and could provide protection from existing mutations as well between them.
The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.
If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.
I had this very same argument with a close antivaxxer friend. She loathes lockdown but won't have the jab. I tried to explain the logic: the vaccines are probably the only way, certainly the fastest way, OUT of lockdown
She just wouldn't buy it. Antivaxxery is a weird mental condition. She's far from stupid
Anyway, when she realises she can't travel anyway or work in many jobs or go to gigs or festivals or whatever, she will, I suspect, be forced to rethink
I am the last person to tell you not to have a vaccine. Have one. Me? I'll take my chances, thanks. Until I can pay to have one privately and confidentially. Which I may. Or may not.
I am not an anti-vaxxer, but I can fully understand the mentality behind it. The last 12 months have made it very difficult to trust the state. There has been so much constant haranguing, so many out and out lies (the casual interchange of 'cases' with 'positive tests', the insistence that 'cases' are going up at times when all available evidence points to the opposite), so much vitriol poured on anyone whose views questioned the orthodoxy in any mild way, so much overreach of state power (policing people sitting on park benches). To the slightly curious, it hasn't exactly felt like the state is on our side. Now, presumably the state's approach - they have form in this - is to decide that the only way they can make people to behave as they want is to exaggerate the threat ('if people won't believe the truth, we'll have to lie to them.'). They have form on this. But doing this pushes a small core of people not to co-operate at all. People feel like they're being manipulated, and people have an aversion to being manipulated. It has felt to some of us like the enthusiasm for lockdown measures has been out of all proportion to the benefit in controlling the disease. It's only a small jump from that to a conclusion that lockdowns are an end in themselves. And the obvious evidence of vaccines working isn't yet particularly exciting. All the indicators are that the virus is in retreat - but that was true ten months ago, and there wasn't a vaccine then. Deaths and positive tests among the oldies are declining - but not much, yet, in comparison to the unvaccinated population. Now I want to believe. I want to have hope. I'm looking desperately for evidence that vaccines work, and so I am happy to hear enthusiasm about them from well-informed voices on here. I will of course have the vaccine when it is offered - I have been vaccinated without qualms for other things. But if I wasn't already in a 'want to believe' mindset I could easily convince myself not to. I could easily convince myself that the state was not on my side. And I could easily convince myself that lockdowns are the end, not the means. As I say, I'm NOT in that mindset. But I can understand it.
Interesting post. The bit that stands out is 'the conclusion that lockdowns are an end in themselves'. I know that's not your opinion, but what possible end could there be for a government to have a lockdown as an end in itself? Thats the bit I don't understand. Any ideas?
Mr. Contrarian, would you take a vaccine through private rather than state provision?
F1: good news!
I had TBC in a row so I didn't have to move cells or rejig formulae when adding Portugal.
I know you're all relieved.
Yes I probably would. If I hadn't been put under pressure to take a vaccine, or if giving me my freedom wasn't conditional on me taking a vaccine, I probably would have taken a vaccine.
When I get my freedom back, I will take a bl88dy vaccine.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
Well you won't be waiting long tbf, some London clinics are talking about mid-June.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
Instead, you are relying on the rest of us to be vaccinated, to get you out of lockdown. I'm happy to do that for you, but your argument is neither persuasive nor principled.
And you are relying on me and people like me to keep paying higher rate taxes in spades so that when the NHS is needed, it is there for you and everybody. And the rest of the welfare state.
You are relying on me to keep working in the UK and paying taxes in the UK, but having people all over the world use and pay for my services, so the money keeps flowing in. Which I am happy to do.
And so frankly you know where you can stick your bullsh*t lecture.
Hmm, there are a lot of additional rate tax payers on PB and we're all getting the vaccine. In fact of those that I know on here I'm probably one of the few that hasn't had it yet and I'm just waiting patiently for my turn.
Paying tax has nothing to do with getting or not getting a vaccine. You're a complete and utter fool.
I know that.
Here's me encouraging and supporting you in your quest to get a vaccine. I may get one myself. In my own time.
You can only hope that you don't catch Covid19 in the meantime. You do realise that it can kill....?
So can flu but you actually cannot get that vaccine on the NHS unless over 50. If you are a driver you do realise cars can crash and kill sometimes dont you? If there is a lesson to be learned from this mess its that talking too dumbed down or simple is stupid
The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.
If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.
Until a strain comes along, that, as discussed in parliament the other day by the lords and by many scientists, evades the current vaccine. Time for another lockdown, followed by another vaccine.
The scientific consensus is emerging that new variants may evade antibody protection but are very unlikely indeed to evade T-Cell immunity for all time. Here's something from one of those evil members of SAGE you love to imagine stroking white cats under dormant volcanos -
I don't see why there should be a "substantial" degree of Covid deaths. We need 93-95% to keep measles suppressed. We are seeing that level of take up of the Covid vaccine in the over 70's. I suspect it will be that for all age groups, but the "substantial" deaths are only in those upper age bands.
To keep the Covid fires stoked, you are effectively going to need all the unvaccinated meeting up to pass it on to themselves. And if they do - that is choice they have made, however stupid their pool of knowledge.
Define "substantial" I guess. If you are right (indeed you may well be) then he is going to have had a spot of media training. To the untrained ear a few thousand every year (which is what a normal flu season is) is pretty substantial.
Considering he's comparing it with the flu then that seems to be roughly what is considered possible?
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
It's such an odd thing to come into contact with one of the 5% of actual hardcore anti-vaxxers that doesn't post BTL on the Telegraph of Express.
Dura Ace is antivax as well. Which is really odd as he seems of a scientific bent, and is obviously smart
Intelligence is not correlated with anti-vaxxery, perhaps it is inversely correlated. Smart people are more likely to be paranoid? Hmm....
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
All of the private clinics will get Moderna, of which the government has ordered 17m. But I'm sure they'll stick a custom label on it with gold writing or whatever the oil sheikhs want these days.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
Instead, you are relying on the rest of us to be vaccinated, to get you out of lockdown. I'm happy to do that for you, but your argument is neither persuasive nor principled.
And you are relying on me and people like me to keep paying higher rate taxes in spades so that when the NHS is needed, it is there for you and everybody. And the rest of the welfare state.
You are relying on me to keep working in the UK and paying taxes in the UK, but having people all over the world use and pay for my services, so the money keeps flowing in. Which I am happy to do.
And so frankly you know where you can stick your bullsh*t lecture.
Hmm, there are a lot of additional rate tax payers on PB and we're all getting the vaccine. In fact of those that I know on here I'm probably one of the few that hasn't had it yet and I'm just waiting patiently for my turn.
Paying tax has nothing to do with getting or not getting a vaccine. You're a complete and utter fool.
I know that.
Here's me encouraging and supporting you in your quest to get a vaccine. I may get one myself. In my own time.
You can only hope that you don't catch Covid19 in the meantime. You do realise that it can kill....?
So can flu but you actually cannot get that vaccine on the NHS unless over 50. If you are a driver you do realise cars can crash and kill sometimes dont you? If there is a lesson to be learned from this mess its that talking too dumbed down or simple is stupid
You risk killing a lot of other people too unless you isolate...
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
Ok, but it is the business of say the US or Spanish government should you want to travel there. I'm sure the UK will also introduce a vaccine passport requirement on entry once we're reaching herd immunity. It's also the business of the pub that wants to operate without any social distancing or masks indoors and will require a vaccine pass or negative test on entry. I'm sure Tim will still let you into a Spoons without one though...
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
Well you won't be waiting long tbf, some London clinics are talking about mid-June.
Great I will get it then, or in the autumn. Almost certainly.
I reserve the right to be an under the radar person, given I have never had so much as a parking ticket in my life and always paid my way. That's all. There was a time when that wasn't much to ask.
The funny thing is contrarian claims to want to open up and get back to normal - but vaccines do that. If everyone is vaccinated then Covid is effectively defeated and manageable and we can get back to normal.
If people aren't vaccinated then Covid remains and people socially distance by choice rather than by law. Businesses struggle. Debts accrue. Children and others suffer.
Until a strain comes along, that, as discussed in parliament the other day by the lords and by many scientists, evades the current vaccine. Time for another lockdown, followed by another vaccine.
The scientific consensus is emerging that new variants may evade antibody protection but are very unlikely indeed to evade T-Cell immunity for all time. Here's something from one of those evil members of SAGE you love to imagine stroking white cats under dormant volcanos -
I don't see why there should be a "substantial" degree of Covid deaths. We need 93-95% to keep measles suppressed. We are seeing that level of take up of the Covid vaccine in the over 70's. I suspect it will be that for all age groups, but the "substantial" deaths are only in those upper age bands.
To keep the Covid fires stoked, you are effectively going to need all the unvaccinated meeting up to pass it on to themselves. And if they do - that is choice they have made, however stupid their pool of knowledge.
Define "substantial" I guess. If you are right (indeed you may well be) then he is going to have had a spot of media training. To the untrained ear a few thousand every year (which is what a normal flu season is) is pretty substantial.
Considering he's comparing it with the flu then that seems to be roughly what is considered possible?
I think so. You have to bear in mind that flu deaths barely make the news even in a bad year. When Covid deaths pick up next winter the public will freak out. I don't think there will be the 50-60k of this year but circa 10k or thereabouts could well happen (so could many more or less - that's an guestimate for the purposes of this post) which is certainly, to the untrained ear, "substantial". TBH I am hoping that there won't even be that.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
So I assume you don't use any NHS services? They keep records too you know...
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
Well you won't be waiting long tbf, some London clinics are talking about mid-June.
Great I will get it then, or in the autumn. Almost certainly.
I reserve the right to be an under the radar person, given I have never had so much as a parking ticket in my life and always paid my way. That's all. There was a time when that wasn't much to ask.
These days, not so much.
Well you better look forwards to a summer without going to the theatre, cinema or any kind of non-distanced event as the government is using this "review" period to wait until enough people are eligible for a vaccine passport to introduce one domestically.
As I said, you might be spending it in the local wetherspoons.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
It's such an odd thing to come into contact with one of the 5% of actual hardcore anti-vaxxers that doesn't post BTL on the Telegraph of Express.
Dura Ace is antivax as well. Which is really odd as he seems of a scientific bent, and is obviously smart
Intelligence is not correlated with anti-vaxxery, perhaps it is inversely correlated. Smart people are more likely to be paranoid? Hmm....
It's not down to Dura Ace being anti-vax. He's just a typical Leeds United fan - arrogantly thinks his body is able to fight anyone, anything, anywhere, any time.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
Imagine being dumb enough to be happy sharing detailed financial information with your own government over decades for the purpose of paying taxes, but drawing the line at them knowing which diseases you have and haven't been protected against. Or that they remotely care about individuals (as opposed to just monitoring overall levels of takeup).
If anything, the private clinic will be more interested in your data, so they can think about what other services you can get for free that they can provide to you for a massive markup.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
I guess that's fair if you are super-cautious and never meet anyone vulnerable, or indeed anyone at all
If you refuse the vaccine yet happily break lockdown then you are a menace to others
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
Instead, you are relying on the rest of us to be vaccinated, to get you out of lockdown. I'm happy to do that for you, but your argument is neither persuasive nor principled.
And you are relying on me and people like me to keep paying higher rate taxes in spades so that when the NHS is needed, it is there for you and everybody. And the rest of the welfare state.
You are relying on me to keep working in the UK and paying taxes in the UK, but having people all over the world use and pay for my services, so the money keeps flowing in. Which I am happy to do.
And so frankly you know where you can stick your bullsh*t lecture.
I wasn't lecturing you - just responding to your argument. Which doesn't seem to make much sense. And you in turn seem to be assuming I don't pay a substantial amount of tax.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
I can tell you from experience that it's damn hard to get hold of NHS records, even when the data controller and ethics committee have agreed that you can have access
Random private medical practice storing them in Excel on Windows on the secretary's laptop? Well, take your chances, I guess.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
Ok, but it is the business of say the US or Spanish government should you want to travel there. I'm sure the UK will also introduce a vaccine passport requirement on entry once we're reaching herd immunity. It's also the business of the pub that wants to operate without any social distancing or masks indoors and will require a vaccine pass or negative test on entry. I'm sure Tim will still let you into a Spoons without one though...
That pub sounds a load of fun to go to -more like checking in for an operation. In reality just c'mon. We dont want to divide people and if you get a vaccine you will be as safe as you can be from covid 19. It doesnt mean everyone has to get obsessed by a small amount of people (for whatever reason) who have not been vaccinated
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
Ok, but it is the business of say the US or Spanish government should you want to travel there. I'm sure the UK will also introduce a vaccine passport requirement on entry once we're reaching herd immunity. It's also the business of the pub that wants to operate without any social distancing or masks indoors and will require a vaccine pass or negative test on entry. I'm sure Tim will still let you into a Spoons without one though...
I support the right of foreign governments and pubs etc. to impose whatever conditions they want. I will have to make a decision when the time comes on what I do. I will look pretty stupid if I can;t go for a drink after work because don't have a pass. Or I can't go an business trip. Point conceded.
I note, however, that Pontin's has tried to do that and felt the back hand of the law.
And so one person's choice is another's discrimination.
As they do, it doesnt matter who organises and provides it. Does delaying when the gov does magically increase efficacy later?
Also definitely an option you can only even contemplate if others are not doing the same thing en masse, delaying the end of lockdown, sonit exploits the good will of others.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
Well you won't be waiting long tbf, some London clinics are talking about mid-June.
Will there even be a market for it by then? At this rate, the UK will have jabbed virtually all adults by June
Why pay when the NHS will give it free, unless you have fairly contrarian motivations like contrarian
The interesting thing will be to see if the numbers stay high. The indications that we have been given was that this week would be bad but next week was when it would change. Good measure of how accurate their forecasting is.
It's not really forecasting. The supply chain is long enough that the vaccine for weeks in advance is known already.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
I see your point but would you feel the same if you wanted to travel to an African country which demanded that you had a yellow fever vaccination first?
Forgoing the vaccine should be everyone’s libertarian choice. Equally it should be the taxpayers’ choice not to give them healthcare in our hospitals or their kids an education in our schools. Scared of the big bad state, well it cuts both ways matey.
Do they then get to pay no tax?
in reality its stupid talking in these extremes given even you would balk at kids being denied education for their parents actions
I would 100% ban any kid from attending school or an early years setting that was not fully up to date with their vaccines. I’ve lived somewhere where this was the rule and it worked well. That you think it’s extreme or stupid says rather a lot.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
So I assume you don't use any NHS services? They keep records too you know...
Well the private clinic will also update people's medical records to include the vaccine so the NHS will still know you've had it.
Indeed. Although "effective" is a broad word. It would be surprising if it was completely ineffective.
"The data indicates that the vaccine will not need to be modified in order to protect against the variant, which is believed to have originated in the Amazonian city of Manaus, said the source, who requested anonymity as the results have not yet been made public."
Forgoing the vaccine should be everyone’s libertarian choice. Equally it should be the taxpayers’ choice not to give them healthcare in our hospitals or their kids an education in our schools. Scared of the big bad state, well it cuts both ways matey.
Do they then get to pay no tax?
in reality its stupid talking in these extremes given even you would balk at kids being denied education for their parents actions
I would 100% ban any kid from attending school or an early years setting that was not fully up to date with their vaccines. I’ve lived somewhere where this was the rule and it worked well. That you think it’s extreme or stupid says rather a lot.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
Instead, you are relying on the rest of us to be vaccinated, to get you out of lockdown. I'm happy to do that for you, but your argument is neither persuasive nor principled.
And you are relying on me and people like me to keep paying higher rate taxes in spades so that when the NHS is needed, it is there for you and everybody. And the rest of the welfare state.
You are relying on me to keep working in the UK and paying taxes in the UK, but having people all over the world use and pay for my services, so the money keeps flowing in. Which I am happy to do.
And so frankly you know where you can stick your bullsh*t lecture.
I wasn't lecturing you - just responding to your argument. Which doesn't seem to make much sense. And you in turn seem to be assuming I don't pay a substantial amount of tax.
I was making no such assumption. I was defending myself from the accusation that I wasn't doing my civic duty. I realise that PB is choc full of high earners and higher achievers. It obviously is.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
Well you won't be waiting long tbf, some London clinics are talking about mid-June.
Will there even be a market for it by then? At this rate, the UK will have jabbed virtually all adults by June
Why pay when the NHS will give it free, unless you have fairly contrarian motivations like contrarian
Rich foreigners from low income countries and multinational companies looking to get their staff queue jumped where rollout is slow (Europe, for example).
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
It's such an odd thing to come into contact with one of the 5% of actual hardcore anti-vaxxers that doesn't post BTL on the Telegraph of Express.
Dura Ace is antivax as well. Which is really odd as he seems of a scientific bent, and is obviously smart
Intelligence is not correlated with anti-vaxxery, perhaps it is inversely correlated. Smart people are more likely to be paranoid? Hmm....
Hes a contrarian. And automatically being contrary is as silly as being automatically conforming.
More so in some situations where things conform for very good reasons.
We do need contrarians, things need challenging even if they seem straightforward, but automatic contrariness is not a bold position.
@contrarian I don`t think you are the strong conservative that you think you are to be honest. I think you are a strong libertarian. Being against compulsory vaccination and voting for Brexit are indicators of this. Out of interest, were you opposed to the compulsory wearing of seat belts and the ban on smoking in public places?
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
Well you won't be waiting long tbf, some London clinics are talking about mid-June.
Will there even be a market for it by then? At this rate, the UK will have jabbed virtually all adults by June
Why pay when the NHS will give it free, unless you have fairly contrarian motivations like contrarian
Rich foreigners from low income countries and multinational companies looking to get their staff queue jumped where rollout is slow (Europe, for example).
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
I guess that's fair if you are super-cautious and never meet anyone vulnerable, or indeed anyone at all
If you refuse the vaccine yet happily break lockdown then you are a menace to others
I have broken no rules at all, and I don;t intend to break any. And if and when we are free, I will probably get a vaccine. Because I will know then that it was my choice.
The EU has no interest in Northern Ireland’s future prosperity. It just sees it as a mechanism to exert its power. It is a constitutional outrage that British companies are not free to trade without restriction to all parts of the sovereign United Kingdom. The checks that are now being demanded by the EU are so disproportionate as to be totally unreasonable. The British government bent over backwards to make a compromise to meet EU concerns that the Single Market could be compromised, but its goodwill has been exploited at every turn.
At some point this has to stop, and the unilateral extension of the grace period is the inevitable consequence of EU inflexibility. It is not, as the Irish government unhelpfully says, a breach of international law. What it is, is a sign that Britain’s patience with the EU on this issue is about to expire.
Bollox. It is the compromise arrangement that we insisted on. It is the trade deal that we negotiated. It is the operational model we signed. The EU had no interest at all in interjecting itself into the internal matters of a post-EU UK, where anyone with a brain can see that a GB-NI border is bonkers.
So, we are back to the unsolvable issue of the intra-Irish border. It must be open and unimpeded, but has to provide the hard border between the EU and UK demanded by our government. They proposed that we stay in the customs union and aligned to EU standards until a technology solution could be found. No, WE LEAVE NOW we demanded. Which means the only other place for the border is the Irish Sea.
Why do you think the Boris Burrows all lead to the Isle of Man? We have to put the customs post for the Boris Border somewhere, and the IoM fancies running duty free stores.
No. Just don't have a hard border anywhere, problem solved. Fudge is the spirit of the GFA.
Protecting the integrity of the SM was the EU's one and only true red line. That violates it.
That's their problem. Ours is protecting the integrity of the UK.
We should do whatever it takes, upto and including A16, to do our priority.
But the deal respected that red line of theirs. They wouldn't have done it otherwise.
We are Great Britain not a second hand car dealer.
It respected ours too.
Invoking Article 16 is not breaking international law, anymore than invoking Article 50 was. It is acting within the provisions they agreed to.
The GFA was about ending the risk of violence from both sides. If the EU can't "de-escalate" the issue with the UK then the UK can unilaterally invoke Article 16 until there's no threat from or to either side anymore.
The issue remains as was. The price of no border in Ireland is a border in the Irish Sea unless the parties can agree an alternative. That's the essence of the deal struck to give Johnson his desired Christmas Eve headlines. That it is now unraveling is no surprise at all. The surprise would have been anything else. But Johnson won't care. He got his narrative. He delivered Brexit. Politically speaking, job done. The Boris Johnson Project trundles on.
Indeed. Although "effective" is a broad word. It would be surprising if it was completely ineffective.
"The data indicates that the vaccine will not need to be modified in order to protect against the variant, which is believed to have originated in the Amazonian city of Manaus, said the source, who requested anonymity as the results have not yet been made public."
All that pseudo-science...
The state of the reporting on this has been appaling from the start.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
Well you won't be waiting long tbf, some London clinics are talking about mid-June.
Will there even be a market for it by then? At this rate, the UK will have jabbed virtually all adults by June
Why pay when the NHS will give it free, unless you have fairly contrarian motivations like contrarian
Rich foreigners from low income countries and multinational companies looking to get their staff queue jumped where rollout is slow (Europe, for example).
Me
Isn't the US already doing privately available Moderna vaccines? Robert mentioned the price had gone down to merely a few thousand bucks from over $10k.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
I guess that's fair if you are super-cautious and never meet anyone vulnerable, or indeed anyone at all
If you refuse the vaccine yet happily break lockdown then you are a menace to others
I have broken no rules at all, and I don;t intend to break any. And if and when we are free, I will probably get a vaccine. Because I will know then that it was my choice.
I'm much enjoying my mental image of mini-contrarian refusing to go to school until he was 18 years old, and no evil truancy officer was trying to force him to any more.
If conscription was ever re-introduced, he'd hide for the duration of the war and then sign up the day an armistice was signed.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
I guess that's fair if you are super-cautious and never meet anyone vulnerable, or indeed anyone at all
If you refuse the vaccine yet happily break lockdown then you are a menace to others
I have broken no rules at all, and I don;t intend to break any. And if and when we are free, I will probably get a vaccine. Because I will know then that it was my choice.
Forgoing the vaccine should be everyone’s libertarian choice. Equally it should be the taxpayers’ choice not to give them healthcare in our hospitals or their kids an education in our schools. Scared of the big bad state, well it cuts both ways matey.
Do they then get to pay no tax?
in reality its stupid talking in these extremes given even you would balk at kids being denied education for their parents actions
I would 100% ban any kid from attending school or an early years setting that was not fully up to date with their vaccines. I’ve lived somewhere where this was the rule and it worked well. That you think it’s extreme or stupid says rather a lot.
and it says a lot about you frankly
It is the case in DC. No vax, no access to public schools. Students and teachers.
@contrarian I don`t think you are the strong conservative that you think you are to be honest. I think you are a strong libertarian. Being against compulsory vaccination and voting for Brexit are indicators of this. Out of interest, were you opposed to the compulsory wearing of seat belts and the ban on smoking in public places?
Seat belts are clearly vital. Smoking outdoors? Knock yourself out.
I am just the kind of person who likes to be asked, or convinced, rather than told. Especially by government. But anyway I've wound everybody up enough for one day.....!!!!
Are we going to end up in a situation where when it comes to the real world, AZN is shown to be better to Pfizer?
No, the AZ second dose probably does a lot less than the Pfizer second dose because if vector immunity. It could explain why the initial trials showed such a high level of efficacy when mixing vaccines though.
Excellent news. I have to say from a poor start due to a badly put together trial the AZ vaccine could end up being top of the class. I've been reading some private research on what I was talking about earlier this week on mixing the AZ and J&J jabs for 2 doses 12 weeks apart and some of the modelling says it could have the highest efficacy of any combination.
One of the things a colleague said to me sticks in my head - most of the vaccines are using the same spike protein, so ultimately its likely the effectiveness won't differ hugely (delivery methods may play a role). It is a shame that AZ stuffed up the trial, but all of this was done at speed, and we are now in Phase III+ - the real world. The emerging data is great, and I suspect the vaccines will be much of a muchness by the end.
Yes, that's what the research pointed out as well but there's some evidence now that the adenovirus vector gives a better long term immune response with a single jab compared to the mRNA Pfizer single dose. Using two different adenovirus vector vaccines (to avoid vector immunity) for two doses spaced 12 weeks apart could result in a very, very strong and long term immunity and keep t-cells primed for a very long time.
I really hope it's something that our scientists look into as both the AZ vaccine and J&J vaccine are easy to distribute and could provide protection from existing mutations as well between them.
Could an expert please explain why adenovirus vector may give better immunity (at least from one dose) than mRNA vector does?
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
Instead, you are relying on the rest of us to be vaccinated, to get you out of lockdown. I'm happy to do that for you, but your argument is neither persuasive nor principled.
Man shouts "There is no need for lockdown!" - because unlike him, we have had the jab, meaning, er, there is no need for a lockdown.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
Ok, but it is the business of say the US or Spanish government should you want to travel there. I'm sure the UK will also introduce a vaccine passport requirement on entry once we're reaching herd immunity. It's also the business of the pub that wants to operate without any social distancing or masks indoors and will require a vaccine pass or negative test on entry. I'm sure Tim will still let you into a Spoons without one though...
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
So I assume you don't use any NHS services? They keep records too you know...
Well the private clinic will also update people's medical records to include the vaccine so the NHS will still know you've had it.
In fact, isn't that a requirement in the UK? For private medical outfits to update medical records?
Are we going to end up in a situation where when it comes to the real world, AZN is shown to be better to Pfizer?
No, the AZ second dose probably does a lot less than the Pfizer second dose because if vector immunity. It could explain why the initial trials showed such a high level of efficacy when mixing vaccines though.
Not sure we have all that much real world data on efficacy of the delayed booster yet ?
Indeed. Although "effective" is a broad word. It would be surprising if it was completely ineffective.
"The data indicates that the vaccine will not need to be modified in order to protect against the variant, which is believed to have originated in the Amazonian city of Manaus, said the source, who requested anonymity as the results have not yet been made public."
All that pseudo-science...
The state of the reporting on this has been appaling from the start.
In part. In fairness over the last 2 months there was a lot less sensationalising and panicking than I thought there would be.
The value of the mid Jan jump in vaccinations simply on calming us (even as deaths were horrendous) has been enormous. And it hasn't been dragged around by politics, very sensibly, the opposition deserve some credit there.
Absolutely spot on. Asking a neuroscientist about this is like asking me (an employment lawyer) to advise you on boundary disputes (which, TBF, my parents have been doing for 20 years...)
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
I guess that's fair if you are super-cautious and never meet anyone vulnerable, or indeed anyone at all
If you refuse the vaccine yet happily break lockdown then you are a menace to others
I have broken no rules at all, and I don;t intend to break any. And if and when we are free, I will probably get a vaccine. Because I will know then that it was my choice.
I'm much enjoying my mental image of mini-contrarian refusing to go to school until he was 18 years old, and no evil truancy officer was trying to force him to any more.
If conscription was ever re-introduced, he'd hide for the duration of the war and then sign up the day an armistice was signed.
No. Sign ups ten to start on a volunteer basis. And that being the case, I would undoubtedly have signed up!
Excellent news. I have to say from a poor start due to a badly put together trial the AZ vaccine could end up being top of the class. I've been reading some private research on what I was talking about earlier this week on mixing the AZ and J&J jabs for 2 doses 12 weeks apart and some of the modelling says it could have the highest efficacy of any combination.
One of the things a colleague said to me sticks in my head - most of the vaccines are using the same spike protein, so ultimately its likely the effectiveness won't differ hugely (delivery methods may play a role). It is a shame that AZ stuffed up the trial, but all of this was done at speed, and we are now in Phase III+ - the real world. The emerging data is great, and I suspect the vaccines will be much of a muchness by the end.
Yes, that's what the research pointed out as well but there's some evidence now that the adenovirus vector gives a better long term immune response with a single jab compared to the mRNA Pfizer single dose. Using two different adenovirus vector vaccines (to avoid vector immunity) for two doses spaced 12 weeks apart could result in a very, very strong and long term immunity and keep t-cells primed for a very long time.
I really hope it's something that our scientists look into as both the AZ vaccine and J&J vaccine are easy to distribute and could provide protection from existing mutations as well between them.
Could an expert please explain why adenovirus vector may give better immunity (at least from one dose) than mRNA vector does?
The immune system will react to the adenovirus itself, as well as the COVID protein, thus attacking the vector and preventing it delivering the COVID protein, so the body then has no chance to develop immunity to COVID
Do you mean Thatcher had a better understanding of the rule of law in a liberal democracy than the current shower of troughing shysters do? Because that would be more like it.
But it's fun to see you take on contrarian, who appears to be wrong about quite literally everything.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
So I assume you don't use any NHS services? They keep records too you know...
Well the private clinic will also update people's medical records to include the vaccine so the NHS will still know you've had it.
Quiet - the idiot doesn't know that... He thinks private is 'off the books'
Are we going to end up in a situation where when it comes to the real world, AZN is shown to be better to Pfizer?
No, the AZ second dose probably does a lot less than the Pfizer second dose because if vector immunity. It could explain why the initial trials showed such a high level of efficacy when mixing vaccines though.
Aren't AZN already trialling a mixed AZN/Sputnik combo?
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
Instead, you are relying on the rest of us to be vaccinated, to get you out of lockdown. I'm happy to do that for you, but your argument is neither persuasive nor principled.
And you are relying on me and people like me to keep paying higher rate taxes in spades so that when the NHS is needed, it is there for you and everybody. And the rest of the welfare state.
You are relying on me to keep working in the UK and paying taxes in the UK, but having people all over the world use and pay for my services, so the money keeps flowing in. Which I am happy to do.
And so frankly you know where you can stick your bullsh*t lecture.
I wasn't lecturing you - just responding to your argument. Which doesn't seem to make much sense. And you in turn seem to be assuming I don't pay a substantial amount of tax.
I was making no such assumption. I was defending myself from the accusation that I wasn't doing my civic duty. I realise that PB is choc full of high earners and higher achievers. It obviously is.
Forgoing the vaccine should be everyone’s libertarian choice. Equally it should be the taxpayers’ choice not to give them healthcare in our hospitals or their kids an education in our schools. Scared of the big bad state, well it cuts both ways matey.
Do they then get to pay no tax?
in reality its stupid talking in these extremes given even you would balk at kids being denied education for their parents actions
I would 100% ban any kid from attending school or an early years setting that was not fully up to date with their vaccines. I’ve lived somewhere where this was the rule and it worked well. That you think it’s extreme or stupid says rather a lot.
and it says a lot about you frankly
It’s been quite jarring seeing the uk up close as a parent. Got an email from the school this week begging parents to give their kids the mmr as there’s a vulnerable child who a) cannot take vaccines and b) would be at increased risk of death if they caught any of the three.
If I ran the school I’d be demanding vaccine certificates for every child in attendance. Any parent selfish and ignorant enough not to care can stick with the home schooling.
Grown up societies and grown up people should continually debate the trade offs between individual right to choose and security. Unflinchingly shaking your fist in defence of “liberty” without a second thought, is as childish as those that want to suckle at nanny state’s teet their whole life.
Excellent news. I have to say from a poor start due to a badly put together trial the AZ vaccine could end up being top of the class. I've been reading some private research on what I was talking about earlier this week on mixing the AZ and J&J jabs for 2 doses 12 weeks apart and some of the modelling says it could have the highest efficacy of any combination.
One of the things a colleague said to me sticks in my head - most of the vaccines are using the same spike protein, so ultimately its likely the effectiveness won't differ hugely (delivery methods may play a role). It is a shame that AZ stuffed up the trial, but all of this was done at speed, and we are now in Phase III+ - the real world. The emerging data is great, and I suspect the vaccines will be much of a muchness by the end.
Yes, that's what the research pointed out as well but there's some evidence now that the adenovirus vector gives a better long term immune response with a single jab compared to the mRNA Pfizer single dose. Using two different adenovirus vector vaccines (to avoid vector immunity) for two doses spaced 12 weeks apart could result in a very, very strong and long term immunity and keep t-cells primed for a very long time.
I really hope it's something that our scientists look into as both the AZ vaccine and J&J vaccine are easy to distribute and could provide protection from existing mutations as well between them.
Could an expert please explain why adenovirus vector may give better immunity (at least from one dose) than mRNA vector does?
The immune system will react to the adenovirus itself, as well as the COVID protein, thus attacking the vector and preventing it delivering the COVID protein, so the body then has no chance to develop immunity to COVID
EDIT. This will not be an issue the first time you use any one given viral vector. But if you keep using the same vector for booster shots, or to deliver vaccines against other diseases, it could become an issue.
Are we going to end up in a situation where when it comes to the real world, AZN is shown to be better to Pfizer?
No, the AZ second dose probably does a lot less than the Pfizer second dose because if vector immunity. It could explain why the initial trials showed such a high level of efficacy when mixing vaccines though.
Aren't AZN already trialling a mixed AZN/Sputnik combo?
Yeah, but I'd like to see it trialled with J&J because then we're not relying on the Russians where there is a high cost of doing business.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
Interesting. Just before I read your post I had completed an article on how "No Jab/No Job" policies are likely to be lawful and commonplace in a few months. As you say, though, your decision.
The government should not insist "no jab/no job" but if an employer desires to do so then that is entirely libertarian.
That's what will happen IMO. Ditto airlines. I don't think there will be a domestic vaccine passport, likely unworkable, but if you want access to employment or international travel (i.e. nearly everyone) you will need to be vaccinated.
I'll be surprised if proof of jab is required for many jobs other than perhaps in healthcare.
The EU has no interest in Northern Ireland’s future prosperity. It just sees it as a mechanism to exert its power. It is a constitutional outrage that British companies are not free to trade without restriction to all parts of the sovereign United Kingdom. The checks that are now being demanded by the EU are so disproportionate as to be totally unreasonable. The British government bent over backwards to make a compromise to meet EU concerns that the Single Market could be compromised, but its goodwill has been exploited at every turn.
At some point this has to stop, and the unilateral extension of the grace period is the inevitable consequence of EU inflexibility. It is not, as the Irish government unhelpfully says, a breach of international law. What it is, is a sign that Britain’s patience with the EU on this issue is about to expire.
Bollox. It is the compromise arrangement that we insisted on. It is the trade deal that we negotiated. It is the operational model we signed. The EU had no interest at all in interjecting itself into the internal matters of a post-EU UK, where anyone with a brain can see that a GB-NI border is bonkers.
So, we are back to the unsolvable issue of the intra-Irish border. It must be open and unimpeded, but has to provide the hard border between the EU and UK demanded by our government. They proposed that we stay in the customs union and aligned to EU standards until a technology solution could be found. No, WE LEAVE NOW we demanded. Which means the only other place for the border is the Irish Sea.
Why do you think the Boris Burrows all lead to the Isle of Man? We have to put the customs post for the Boris Border somewhere, and the IoM fancies running duty free stores.
No. Just don't have a hard border anywhere, problem solved. Fudge is the spirit of the GFA.
Protecting the integrity of the SM was the EU's one and only true red line. That violates it.
That's their problem. Ours is protecting the integrity of the UK.
We should do whatever it takes, upto and including A16, to do our priority.
But the deal respected that red line of theirs. They wouldn't have done it otherwise.
We are Great Britain not a second hand car dealer.
It respected ours too.
Invoking Article 16 is not breaking international law, anymore than invoking Article 50 was. It is acting within the provisions they agreed to.
The GFA was about ending the risk of violence from both sides. If the EU can't "de-escalate" the issue with the UK then the UK can unilaterally invoke Article 16 until there's no threat from or to either side anymore.
The issue remains as was. The price of no border in Ireland is a border in the Irish Sea unless the parties can agree an alternative. That's the essence of the deal struck to give Johnson his desired Christmas Eve headlines. That it is now unraveling is no surprise at all. The surprise would have been anything else. But Johnson won't care. He got his narrative. He delivered Brexit. Politically speaking, job done. The Boris Johnson Project trundles on.
Not true.
There is a fourth alternative you overlook: No agreement, UK refuses to police the Irish Sea border and Ireland refuses to police the land border.
That is a better alternative for now. Then an agreement is a case of making progress rather than stepping back.
Are we going to end up in a situation where when it comes to the real world, AZN is shown to be better to Pfizer?
No, the AZ second dose probably does a lot less than the Pfizer second dose because if vector immunity. It could explain why the initial trials showed such a high level of efficacy when mixing vaccines though.
Not sure we have all that much real world data on efficacy of the delayed booster yet ?
True, though I still expect vector immunity to be an issue.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
Instead, you are relying on the rest of us to be vaccinated, to get you out of lockdown. I'm happy to do that for you, but your argument is neither persuasive nor principled.
It's the 'libertarian' principle of others being there to service the libertarian's needs and desires, but heaven help you if you or the gov expect any reciprocity.
Like being against maternity leave right up to getting pregnant.
Indeed. Although "effective" is a broad word. It would be surprising if it was completely ineffective.
"The data indicates that the vaccine will not need to be modified in order to protect against the variant, which is believed to have originated in the Amazonian city of Manaus, said the source, who requested anonymity as the results have not yet been made public."
All that pseudo-science...
The state of the reporting on this has been appaling from the start.
In part. In fairness over the last 2 months there was a lot less sensationalising and panicking than I thought there would be.
The value of the mid Jan jump in vaccinations simply on calming us (even as deaths were horrendous) has been enormous. And it hasn't been dragged around by politics, very sensibly, the opposition deserve some credit there.
I take the point. When I was a kid my parents gave me one of those "how your body works" books and the section on the immune system had a cartoon involving the body being a castle with various lines of defences. The viruses were green looking germ things but there was (from memory) a moat (antibodies) and beyond that a series of white knights with swords inside (T-Cells) fighting with the bugs that got past. That always stuck with me (more than my useless biology teacher at school) and I always thought someone should dig it out, revise it, and present an explainer that way.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
Interesting. Just before I read your post I had completed an article on how "No Jab/No Job" policies are likely to be lawful and commonplace in a few months. As you say, though, your decision.
The government should not insist "no jab/no job" but if an employer desires to do so then that is entirely libertarian.
That's what will happen IMO. Ditto airlines. I don't think there will be a domestic vaccine passport, likely unworkable, but if you want access to employment or international travel (i.e. nearly everyone) you will need to be vaccinated.
I'll be surprised if proof of jab is required for many jobs other than perhaps in healthcare.
A lot of my clients are asking about it. In plumbing it appears to be a thing.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
It's such an odd thing to come into contact with one of the 5% of actual hardcore anti-vaxxers that doesn't post BTL on the Telegraph of Express.
Dura Ace is antivax as well. Which is really odd as he seems of a scientific bent, and is obviously smart
Intelligence is not correlated with anti-vaxxery, perhaps it is inversely correlated. Smart people are more likely to be paranoid? Hmm....
It's not down to Dura Ace being anti-vax. He's just a typical Leeds United fan - arrogantly thinks his body is able to fight anyone, anything, anywhere, any time.
I blame Don Revie.
Sounds like a Jack Russell terrier; something for which to blame the clergy.
The Republican figure can be summed up as the people who most wanted slow and dangerous herd immunity through mass infections refusing instant and safe herd immunity via a vaccine. Contrarianism doesn't really pay when it comes to medical science.
To independent people, a state vaccine means you are on the list. They know you. They know you take vaccines. When the next vaccine comes long in six months, they want you to take it. If you don;t, they will want to know why.
Interesting. Did you develop these paranoid delusions before or after taking a vaccine?
I haven;t taken a vaccine, my family haven't and I won't be taking one while the government is driving the whole thing. When I can get a vaccine on privately and confidentially, I may take one.
That will be my decision. Not Matt Hancock's. You want him to run your life for you, that is your affair.
So you're not willing to take a safe and effective jab now in order to get us out of lockdown and put an end to the pandemic?
Thanks for finally making your position clear.
There are conservatives in America who are not demanding you take a vaccine to get you out of lockdown. That is the kind of conservative I will be voting for in Britain . If I can find one.
I didn't know we had an Anti-Vax Simpleton Party in this country. I suppose you could always start one yourself.
Read my posts. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti lockdown. By all means take a vaccine. They are safe and lovely and they work really, really well. I would never try to dissaude someone from taking a vaccine.
So you aren't anti-vaxxer but you're not taking the vaccine? Schrödinger's anti-vaxxer?
read my posts. I may take the vaccine when I get it from a private medical source, in my own time.
You know your private medical source will have.... exactly the same vaccines as everyone else?
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
It isn't the efficacy of the vaccine. I am sure it works
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
I guess that's fair if you are super-cautious and never meet anyone vulnerable, or indeed anyone at all
If you refuse the vaccine yet happily break lockdown then you are a menace to others
I have broken no rules at all, and I don;t intend to break any. And if and when we are free, I will probably get a vaccine. Because I will know then that it was my choice.
Yes, waiting for the rain to stop and the sun to come out before opening your brolly makes perfect sense. Because God forbid someone tell you how to avoid getting wet in the meantime.
Forgoing the vaccine should be everyone’s libertarian choice. Equally it should be the taxpayers’ choice not to give them healthcare in our hospitals or their kids an education in our schools. Scared of the big bad state, well it cuts both ways matey.
Do they then get to pay no tax?
in reality its stupid talking in these extremes given even you would balk at kids being denied education for their parents actions
I would 100% ban any kid from attending school or an early years setting that was not fully up to date with their vaccines. I’ve lived somewhere where this was the rule and it worked well. That you think it’s extreme or stupid says rather a lot.
and it says a lot about you frankly
It’s been quite jarring seeing the uk up close as a parent. Got an email from the school this week begging parents to give their kids the mmr as there’s a vulnerable child who a) cannot take vaccines and b) would be at increased risk of death if they caught any of the three.
If I ran the school I’d be demanding vaccine certificates for every child in attendance. Any parent selfish and ignorant enough not to care can stick with the home schooling.
Grown up societies and grown up people should continually debate the trade offs between individual right to choose and security. Unflinchingly shaking your fist in defence of “liberty” without a second thought, is as childish as those that want to suckle at nanny state’s teet their whole life.
When we got the BGC vaccination as 13/14 year olds in the late eighties I don't remember any of this. I guess it was that accursed Lancet piece in 1999 that sent everything to sh*t.
@contrarian I don`t think you are the strong conservative that you think you are to be honest. I think you are a strong libertarian. Being against compulsory vaccination and voting for Brexit are indicators of this. Out of interest, were you opposed to the compulsory wearing of seat belts and the ban on smoking in public places?
Seat belts are clearly vital. Smoking outdoors? Knock yourself out.
I am just the kind of person who likes to be asked, or convinced, rather than told. Especially by government. But anyway I've wound everybody up enough for one day.....!!!!
Ooh, can I go one-up on contrarian on the libertarian scale? I'm, on-balance, against compulsory seat belts. And probably on balance against the smoking ban, though there the balance is finer. On balance is the key bit here though. You always have to trade off liberty against societal responsibility. I would have supported conscription in WW2, for example. It's just that my balance point is rather further up the scale than most.
Comments
The last 12 months have made it very difficult to trust the state. There has been so much constant haranguing, so many out and out lies (the casual interchange of 'cases' with 'positive tests', the insistence that 'cases' are going up at times when all available evidence points to the opposite), so much vitriol poured on anyone whose views questioned the orthodoxy in any mild way, so much overreach of state power (policing people sitting on park benches). To the slightly curious, it hasn't exactly felt like the state is on our side.
Now, presumably the state's approach - they have form in this - is to decide that the only way they can make people to behave as they want is to exaggerate the threat ('if people won't believe the truth, we'll have to lie to them.'). They have form on this. But doing this pushes a small core of people not to co-operate at all. People feel like they're being manipulated, and people have an aversion to being manipulated. It has felt to some of us like the enthusiasm for lockdown measures has been out of all proportion to the benefit in controlling the disease. It's only a small jump from that to a conclusion that lockdowns are an end in themselves.
And the obvious evidence of vaccines working isn't yet particularly exciting. All the indicators are that the virus is in retreat - but that was true ten months ago, and there wasn't a vaccine then. Deaths and positive tests among the oldies are declining - but not much, yet, in comparison to the unvaccinated population.
Now I want to believe. I want to have hope. I'm looking desperately for evidence that vaccines work, and so I am happy to hear enthusiasm about them from well-informed voices on here. I will of course have the vaccine when it is offered - I have been vaccinated without qualms for other things. But if I wasn't already in a 'want to believe' mindset I could easily convince myself not to. I could easily convince myself that the state was not on my side. And I could easily convince myself that lockdowns are the end, not the means.
As I say, I'm NOT in that mindset. But I can understand it.
F1: good news!
I had TBC in a row so I didn't have to move cells or rejig formulae when adding Portugal.
I know you're all relieved.
A lockdown by any other name.....
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-vaccination/book-coronavirus-vaccination/
You need yer NHS number but you can also get that online in seconds
They aren't making super-special brilliant vaccines that-don't-put a-microchip in-your-penis, for rich people
They might, however, be being making fake pretendy ultra-special vaccines-that-dont-kill-you, for STUPID rich people
I really hope it's something that our scientists look into as both the AZ vaccine and J&J vaccine are easy to distribute and could provide protection from existing mutations as well between them.
When I get my freedom back, I will take a bl88dy vaccine.
Its just I regard it as private whether I have the vaccine or not, and when.
It is none of the government's business. Not now, not ever.
Intelligence is not correlated with anti-vaxxery, perhaps it is inversely correlated. Smart people are more likely to be paranoid? Hmm....
It really does take so much worry out of life to get the body's defences cranking up. (Pfizer jab + Day 18 - should be spoiling for a fight by now!)
I reserve the right to be an under the radar person, given I have never had so much as a parking ticket in my life and always paid my way. That's all. There was a time when that wasn't much to ask.
These days, not so much.
As I said, you might be spending it in the local wetherspoons.
I blame Don Revie.
If anything, the private clinic will be more interested in your data, so they can think about what other services you can get for free that they can provide to you for a massive markup.
If you refuse the vaccine yet happily break lockdown then you are a menace to others
And you in turn seem to be assuming I don't pay a substantial amount of tax.
Random private medical practice storing them in Excel on Windows on the secretary's laptop? Well, take your chances, I guess.
I note, however, that Pontin's has tried to do that and felt the back hand of the law.
And so one person's choice is another's discrimination.
As they do, it doesnt matter who organises and provides it. Does delaying when the gov does magically increase efficacy later?
Also definitely an option you can only even contemplate if others are not doing the same thing en masse, delaying the end of lockdown, sonit exploits the good will of others.
Why pay when the NHS will give it free, unless you have fairly contrarian motivations like contrarian
All that pseudo-science...
More so in some situations where things conform for very good reasons.
We do need contrarians, things need challenging even if they seem straightforward, but automatic contrariness is not a bold position.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-04/largest-vaccine-maker-warns-of-delays-as-u-s-prioritizes-pfizer
If conscription was ever re-introduced, he'd hide for the duration of the war and then sign up the day an armistice was signed.
https://twitter.com/deb_cohen/status/1367848188057694209
I am just the kind of person who likes to be asked, or convinced, rather than told. Especially by government. But anyway I've wound everybody up enough for one day.....!!!!
The value of the mid Jan jump in vaccinations simply on calming us (even as deaths were horrendous) has been enormous. And it hasn't been dragged around by politics, very sensibly, the opposition deserve some credit there.
https://twitter.com/deb_cohen/status/1367072034556153857
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56293384
Literally, "a bad thing has happened".
Do you mean Thatcher had a better understanding of the rule of law in a liberal democracy than the current shower of troughing shysters do? Because that would be more like it.
But it's fun to see you take on contrarian, who appears to be wrong about quite literally everything.
Aren't AZN already trialling a mixed AZN/Sputnik combo?
If I ran the school I’d be demanding vaccine certificates for every child in attendance. Any parent selfish and ignorant enough not to care can stick with the home schooling.
Grown up societies and grown up people should continually debate the trade offs between individual right to choose and security. Unflinchingly shaking your fist in defence of “liberty” without a second thought, is as childish as those that want to suckle at nanny state’s teet their whole life.
There is a fourth alternative you overlook: No agreement, UK refuses to police the Irish Sea border and Ireland refuses to police the land border.
That is a better alternative for now. Then an agreement is a case of making progress rather than stepping back.
Like being against maternity leave right up to getting pregnant.
On balance is the key bit here though. You always have to trade off liberty against societal responsibility. I would have supported conscription in WW2, for example. It's just that my balance point is rather further up the scale than most.