Would not the BEST bargaining strategy for UK be insisting that the PMs of all EU nations put themselves in a COVID "Bubble" at a SMALL hotel and NOT leave until the deal is done.
How long do YOU think you could hold out looked up in the same compound with Boris Johnson before YOU would crack?
It would be like a remake of Murder on the Orient Express. 🤣🤣🤣
The EU's "talk to the hand" choreography makes it all the more bizarre since everyone knows that the solution to this is political and the blockage is bilateral between Macron and Boris. So those talks needed to take place.
And yet for appearances sake they maintain this façade of absolute Spartan-like unity commanded by the hive mind in Brussels.
Intractable and insecure, which will ultimately result in a lose-lose.
No, the EU27 have had a consistent position all along, and that is the one that Barnier negotiates. Going round to Merkel or Macron fundamentally misunderstands how a union works. A union stands together, and has an appointed negotiator.
One of the constants on PB is reading that the UK is talking to the wrong people.
If its talking to Macron or Merkel then we're told it would be better to talk to the EU.
If its talking to the EU then we're told it would be better to talk to Macron and Merkel.
No, when talking to the EU, you definitely do not get told to talk to Macron and Merkel. That's the kind of nonsense the British media is conveying. Complete nonsense.
It's not nonsense. The EU derives its negotiating mandate from the EU27 in the European Council.
To say it's all magicked up by the Commission out of thin air, who are the only ones who matter, is laughable.
This is a political problem with domestic political audiences and it's quite right that political conversations at that level should have taken place.
They won't of course because of optics and obstinacy so now we'll get No Deal.
Your first two sentences are correct. The mandate is given by the Council, not magicked up by the Commision. The last time that happened was 36 hours ago. And then the Commision conducts the negotiations, as mandated. And that's it. End of story. Anything else is projection or deflection.
All of my post is correct. The due process crap is just pompous inflexibility from a SHIT organisation that is now going to real the fruits of No Deal due to its arrogance and inflexibilty.
Let me be clear: you lose me as a moderate Leaver from 1st Jan 2021. I go ultra hard-line from then on and will brook no compromise thereafter.
Save this post. Look back on it in years to come when you try and understand the disaster that befell you.
To the last I grapple with thee. From hell's heart I stab at thee. For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee.
The EU's "talk to the hand" choreography makes it all the more bizarre since everyone knows that the solution to this is political and the blockage is bilateral between Macron and Boris. So those talks needed to take place.
And yet for appearances sake they maintain this façade of absolute Spartan-like unity commanded by the hive mind in Brussels.
Intractable and insecure, which will ultimately result in a lose-lose.
No, the EU27 have had a consistent position all along, and that is the one that Barnier negotiates. Going round to Merkel or Macron fundamentally misunderstands how a union works. A union stands together, and has an appointed negotiator.
One of the constants on PB is reading that the UK is talking to the wrong people.
If its talking to Macron or Merkel then we're told it would be better to talk to the EU.
If its talking to the EU then we're told it would be better to talk to Macron and Merkel.
No, when talking to the EU, you definitely do not get told to talk to Macron and Merkel. That's the kind of nonsense the British media is conveying. Complete nonsense.
Yet when they talk to the EU we're told they should be talking to Macron and Merkel.
By a remarkable coincidence the people saying we're talking to the wrong people usually seem to be hostile to the government.
Who, apart from Brexiteers, on here has said we should be taking to Macron or Merkel?
I do.
The UK government should aim to sell individual governments on the benefits of a deal that works for the UK as well as them individually. The problem is that they are not doing it. They aren't giving individual governments reasons for pushing the Council in the UK's direction and they are seriously pissing them off with treaty breaches and talk of gunboats etc.
The UK should not however aim to circumvent the Commission in its negotiation. It is massively counterproductive. Only the Council and Commission can unite the EU27 and parliament around a single agreed proposition. Without that single agreed proposition there is no deal.
In any case relations with the EU Commission are not quite so bad as with member states.
We have embassies in all of the EU27 countries who communicate with the respective ministers. The chance to influence the EU position that way passed some time ago.
Expecting Benny Hill to sort it out over dinner was always risible.
Agreed. The UK has some serious fence-mending to with the EU27 countries. I suspect that is the single biggest diplomatic need right now.
The EU's "talk to the hand" choreography makes it all the more bizarre since everyone knows that the solution to this is political and the blockage is bilateral between Macron and Boris. So those talks needed to take place.
And yet for appearances sake they maintain this façade of absolute Spartan-like unity commanded by the hive mind in Brussels.
Intractable and insecure, which will ultimately result in a lose-lose.
No, the EU27 have had a consistent position all along, and that is the one that Barnier negotiates. Going round to Merkel or Macron fundamentally misunderstands how a union works. A union stands together, and has an appointed negotiator.
One of the constants on PB is reading that the UK is talking to the wrong people.
If its talking to Macron or Merkel then we're told it would be better to talk to the EU.
If its talking to the EU then we're told it would be better to talk to Macron and Merkel.
No, when talking to the EU, you definitely do not get told to talk to Macron and Merkel. That's the kind of nonsense the British media is conveying. Complete nonsense.
It's not nonsense. The EU derives its negotiating mandate from the EU27 in the European Council.
To say it's all magicked up by the Commission out of thin air, who are the only ones who matter, is laughable.
This is a political problem with domestic political audiences and it's quite right that political conversations at that level should have taken place.
They won't of course because of optics and obstinacy so now we'll get No Deal.
Your first two sentences are correct. The mandate is given by the Council, not magicked up by the Commision. The last time that happened was 36 hours ago. And then the Commision conducts the negotiations, as mandated. And that's it. End of story. Anything else is projection or deflection.
All of my post is correct. The due process crap is just pompous inflexibility from a SHIT organisation that is now going to real the fruits of No Deal due to its arrogance and inflexibilty.
Let me be clear: you lose me as a moderate Leaver from 1st Jan 2021. I go ultra hard-line from then on and will brook no compromise thereafter.
Save this post. Look back on it in years to come when you try and understand the disaster that befell you.
To the last I grapple with thee. From hell's heart I stab at thee. For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee.
Khan? Or Ahab?
Dunno, depends how many legs CR has got tonight? None by the sounds of it!
The EU's "talk to the hand" choreography makes it all the more bizarre since everyone knows that the solution to this is political and the blockage is bilateral between Macron and Boris. So those talks needed to take place.
And yet for appearances sake they maintain this façade of absolute Spartan-like unity commanded by the hive mind in Brussels.
Intractable and insecure, which will ultimately result in a lose-lose.
No, the EU27 have had a consistent position all along, and that is the one that Barnier negotiates. Going round to Merkel or Macron fundamentally misunderstands how a union works. A union stands together, and has an appointed negotiator.
One of the constants on PB is reading that the UK is talking to the wrong people.
If its talking to Macron or Merkel then we're told it would be better to talk to the EU.
If its talking to the EU then we're told it would be better to talk to Macron and Merkel.
No, when talking to the EU, you definitely do not get told to talk to Macron and Merkel. That's the kind of nonsense the British media is conveying. Complete nonsense.
It's not nonsense. The EU derives its negotiating mandate from the EU27 in the European Council.
To say it's all magicked up by the Commission out of thin air, who are the only ones who matter, is laughable.
This is a political problem with domestic political audiences and it's quite right that political conversations at that level should have taken place.
They won't of course because of optics and obstinacy so now we'll get No Deal.
Your first two sentences are correct. The mandate is given by the Council, not magicked up by the Commision. The last time that happened was 36 hours ago. And then the Commision conducts the negotiations, as mandated. And that's it. End of story. Anything else is projection or deflection.
All of my post is correct. The due process crap is just pompous inflexibility from a SHIT organisation that is now going to real the fruits of No Deal due to its arrogance and inflexibilty.
Let me be clear: you lose me as a moderate Leaver from 1st Jan 2021. I go ultra hard-line from then on and will brook no compromise thereafter.
Save this post. Look back on it in years to come when you try and understand the disaster that befell you.
To the last I grapple with thee. From hell's heart I stab at thee. For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee.
Khan? Or Ahab?
Or real Donald Trump?
Too complex for him. He would probably say something like "I'm done with you! You're fired"
Bozo said no deal is no problem so why do you need to bailout certain sectors .
So yet another lie . And so the government fucks business and then has to step into mitigate the damage .
And those who were strongly against Leaving , younger people will now be saddled with yet more debt because grannie and grandad wanted to relive the Empire .
Bozo said no deal is no problem so why do you need to bailout certain sectors .
So yet another lie . And so the government fucks business and then has to step into mitigate the damage .
And those who were strongly against Leaving , younger people will now be saddled with yet more debt because grannie and grandad wanted to relive the Empire .
The EU's "talk to the hand" choreography makes it all the more bizarre since everyone knows that the solution to this is political and the blockage is bilateral between Macron and Boris. So those talks needed to take place.
And yet for appearances sake they maintain this façade of absolute Spartan-like unity commanded by the hive mind in Brussels.
Intractable and insecure, which will ultimately result in a lose-lose.
No, the EU27 have had a consistent position all along, and that is the one that Barnier negotiates. Going round to Merkel or Macron fundamentally misunderstands how a union works. A union stands together, and has an appointed negotiator.
What's hilarious about this post is that you actually believe this.
I see you find it incomprehensible that the EU27 mean what they say. I think it the obvious explanation of how things have developed.
The EU27 are deeply split but can only move if everyone agrees. Since France (and a few countries tentatively rowing in behind it on fish) does not they cannot.
You are either falling for the propaganda or being deliberately obtuse. Possibly both.
The EU are split on lots of things, but actually Brexit isn't really one of them.
Yes they are. And their pathetic attempts to paper over the cracks isn't fooling anyone except those who want to be fooled.
No they're really not. I follow EU politics and the Brexit debate in quite a lot of detail for work and benefit from talking to people who are very well informed. Of course there are some differences in emphasis and approach, with the French taking a more hardline position and the Irish most desperate to compromise. But compared to the arguments on the EU budget and the rule of law provisions around the Covid fiscal package, or fiscal risk-sharing in the euro area, or the handling of the Greek crisis, or the migrant crisis, the degree of unity over Brexit is striking. The EU wants to protect the single market above all else, and there is unanimity on that. The negotiating mandate has been agreed. The view in the EU is that no deal is better than a bad deal. FWIW I think they should show more willingness to compromise, and they well be doing that behind the scenes - there is not much clarity over the state of the negotiations right now, which is probably a good sign. I still think we will get a deal although it may well be a bumpy path over the next couple of weeks and the likelihood of no deal is rising.
As I said earlier this is rubbish. A trade deal with the UK does no more to damage the Single Market than a trade deal with Canada since we are not in the Single Market and have not asked to be in it. Indeed as I have stated all along I wish we were aiming to be in it like Norway or Iceland but we are not asking for that. So this is just some made up bullshit excuse when the real issue is they hate and fear the idea of a country being on their borders which might be a successful trading challenge to them by undercutting or undermining their sclerotic systems.
The EU's "talk to the hand" choreography makes it all the more bizarre since everyone knows that the solution to this is political and the blockage is bilateral between Macron and Boris. So those talks needed to take place.
And yet for appearances sake they maintain this façade of absolute Spartan-like unity commanded by the hive mind in Brussels.
Intractable and insecure, which will ultimately result in a lose-lose.
No, the EU27 have had a consistent position all along, and that is the one that Barnier negotiates. Going round to Merkel or Macron fundamentally misunderstands how a union works. A union stands together, and has an appointed negotiator.
What's hilarious about this post is that you actually believe this.
I see you find it incomprehensible that the EU27 mean what they say. I think it the obvious explanation of how things have developed.
The EU27 are deeply split but can only move if everyone agrees. Since France (and a few countries tentatively rowing in behind it on fish) does not they cannot.
You are either falling for the propaganda or being deliberately obtuse. Possibly both.
The EU are split on lots of things, but actually Brexit isn't really one of them.
Yes they are. And their pathetic attempts to paper over the cracks isn't fooling anyone except those who want to be fooled.
No they're really not. I follow EU politics and the Brexit debate in quite a lot of detail for work and benefit from talking to people who are very well informed. Of course there are some differences in emphasis and approach, with the French taking a more hardline position and the Irish most desperate to compromise. But compared to the arguments on the EU budget and the rule of law provisions around the Covid fiscal package, or fiscal risk-sharing in the euro area, or the handling of the Greek crisis, or the migrant crisis, the degree of unity over Brexit is striking. The EU wants to protect the single market above all else, and there is unanimity on that. The negotiating mandate has been agreed. The view in the EU is that no deal is better than a bad deal. FWIW I think they should show more willingness to compromise, and they well be doing that behind the scenes - there is not much clarity over the state of the negotiations right now, which is probably a good sign. I still think we will get a deal although it may well be a bumpy path over the next couple of weeks and the likelihood of no deal is rising.
As I said earlier this is rubbish. A trade deal with the UK does no more to damage the Single Market than a trade deal with Canada since we are not in the Single Market and have not asked to be in it. Indeed as I have stated all along I wish we were aiming to be in it like Norway or Iceland but we are not asking for that. So this is just some made up bullshit excuse when the real issue is they hate and fear the idea of a country being on their borders which might be a successful trading challenge to them by undercutting or undermining their sclerotic systems.
I am sorry but i have no sympathy...we all know the deal now and we know the situation can change. Don't f##king go travelling when you don't need to, cos "it be nice to.be in the sun for a week".
The EU's "talk to the hand" choreography makes it all the more bizarre since everyone knows that the solution to this is political and the blockage is bilateral between Macron and Boris. So those talks needed to take place.
And yet for appearances sake they maintain this façade of absolute Spartan-like unity commanded by the hive mind in Brussels.
Intractable and insecure, which will ultimately result in a lose-lose.
No, the EU27 have had a consistent position all along, and that is the one that Barnier negotiates. Going round to Merkel or Macron fundamentally misunderstands how a union works. A union stands together, and has an appointed negotiator.
One of the constants on PB is reading that the UK is talking to the wrong people.
If its talking to Macron or Merkel then we're told it would be better to talk to the EU.
If its talking to the EU then we're told it would be better to talk to Macron and Merkel.
No, when talking to the EU, you definitely do not get told to talk to Macron and Merkel. That's the kind of nonsense the British media is conveying. Complete nonsense.
It's not nonsense. The EU derives its negotiating mandate from the EU27 in the European Council.
To say it's all magicked up by the Commission out of thin air, who are the only ones who matter, is laughable.
This is a political problem with domestic political audiences and it's quite right that political conversations at that level should have taken place.
They won't of course because of optics and obstinacy so now we'll get No Deal.
Your first two sentences are correct. The mandate is given by the Council, not magicked up by the Commision. The last time that happened was 36 hours ago. And then the Commision conducts the negotiations, as mandated. And that's it. End of story. Anything else is projection or deflection.
All of my post is correct. The due process crap is just pompous inflexibility from a SHIT organisation that is now going to real the fruits of No Deal due to its arrogance and inflexibilty.
Let me be clear: you lose me as a moderate Leaver from 1st Jan 2021. I go ultra hard-line from then on and will brook no compromise thereafter.
Save this post. Look back on it in years to come when you try and understand the disaster that befell you.
The EU's "talk to the hand" choreography makes it all the more bizarre since everyone knows that the solution to this is political and the blockage is bilateral between Macron and Boris. So those talks needed to take place.
And yet for appearances sake they maintain this façade of absolute Spartan-like unity commanded by the hive mind in Brussels.
Intractable and insecure, which will ultimately result in a lose-lose.
No, the EU27 have had a consistent position all along, and that is the one that Barnier negotiates. Going round to Merkel or Macron fundamentally misunderstands how a union works. A union stands together, and has an appointed negotiator.
One of the constants on PB is reading that the UK is talking to the wrong people.
If its talking to Macron or Merkel then we're told it would be better to talk to the EU.
If its talking to the EU then we're told it would be better to talk to Macron and Merkel.
No, when talking to the EU, you definitely do not get told to talk to Macron and Merkel. That's the kind of nonsense the British media is conveying. Complete nonsense.
Yet when they talk to the EU we're told they should be talking to Macron and Merkel.
By a remarkable coincidence the people saying we're talking to the wrong people usually seem to be hostile to the government.
Who, apart from Brexiteers, on here has said we should be taking to Macron or Merkel?
I see that FF43 has already given an answer.
I will merely add that the UK government should talk to any and all, in the appropriate ways and appropriate times.
What they may be I don't know but I dare say that Foreign Office types would give advice.
Certain posters here are proving tonight why Intelligence and Wisdom are separate stats in D&D.
Indeed. D&D has some good and simple philosophy in it that other people sometimes really struggle with.
Other than stats one thing I like is the distinction between the Good/Neutral/Evil spectrum and the Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic spectrum. A lot of people lump lawful and good together but they're really, really not the same thing. I'd put my own views as Chaotic Good.
Bozo said no deal is no problem so why do you need to bailout certain sectors .
So yet another lie . And so the government fucks business and then has to step into mitigate the damage .
And those who were strongly against Leaving , younger people will now be saddled with yet more debt because grannie and grandad wanted to relive the Empire .
Joyous isn’t it.
It’s tragic . How the hell did the UK go from London 2012 to this . Just so much hate and division all peddled by the Tories who have decided that it’s a vote winner and helped along the way by the most despicable right wing press .
Bozo said no deal is no problem so why do you need to bailout certain sectors .
So yet another lie . And so the government fucks business and then has to step into mitigate the damage .
And those who were strongly against Leaving , younger people will now be saddled with yet more debt because grannie and grandad wanted to relive the Empire .
Joyous isn’t it.
It’s tragic . How the hell did the UK go from London 2012 to this . Just so much hate and division all peddled by the Tories who have decided that it’s a vote winner and helped along the way by the most despicable right wing press .
I think you credit the Tories with more power than they have over the populace. Our politicians follow, not lead.
And what London 2012 has to do with anything I have not the slightest clue. Brexit has meant harsher political polarisation in the last 4 years, but other than that this feels like the same country as 8 years ago to me.
Certain posters here are proving tonight why Intelligence and Wisdom are separate stats in D&D.
Indeed. D&D has some good and simple philosophy in it that other people sometimes really struggle with.
Other than stats one thing I like is the distinction between the Good/Neutral/Evil spectrum and the Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic spectrum. A lot of people lump lawful and good together but they're really, really not the same thing. I'd put my own views as Chaotic Good.
I'm definitely lawful something, but I'll it up to others to decide which other alignment fits.
Bozo said no deal is no problem so why do you need to bailout certain sectors .
So yet another lie . And so the government fucks business and then has to step into mitigate the damage .
And those who were strongly against Leaving , younger people will now be saddled with yet more debt because grannie and grandad wanted to relive the Empire .
Joyous isn’t it.
It’s tragic . How the hell did the UK go from London 2012 to this . Just so much hate and division all peddled by the Tories who have decided that it’s a vote winner and helped along the way by the most despicable right wing press .
You might want to look in the mirror if you think all hate and division comes from Tories alone.
The very notion we should leave the EU, let alone the suggestion we should have a clean Brexit, leads to hate and anger from people here.
Bozo said no deal is no problem so why do you need to bailout certain sectors .
So yet another lie . And so the government fucks business and then has to step into mitigate the damage .
And those who were strongly against Leaving , younger people will now be saddled with yet more debt because grannie and grandad wanted to relive the Empire .
Joyous isn’t it.
It’s tragic . How the hell did the UK go from London 2012 to this . Just so much hate and division all peddled by the Tories who have decided that it’s a vote winner and helped along the way by the most despicable right wing press .
It is very simple. We elected a government of mendacious idiots led by a clown.
Bozo said no deal is no problem so why do you need to bailout certain sectors .
So yet another lie . And so the government fucks business and then has to step into mitigate the damage .
And those who were strongly against Leaving , younger people will now be saddled with yet more debt because grannie and grandad wanted to relive the Empire .
Joyous isn’t it.
It’s tragic . How the hell did the UK go from London 2012 to this . Just so much hate and division all peddled by the Tories who have decided that it’s a vote winner and helped along the way by the most despicable right wing press .
You might want to look in the mirror if you think all hate and division comes from Tories alone.
The very notion we should leave the EU, let alone the suggestion we should have a clean Brexit, leads to hate and anger from people here.
The angriest people on here this evening are Brexiteers. Former Remainers gave up worrying about Brexit on December 13th last year. The big man got an 80 seat majority and said he had an oven ready WA and a trade deal would be easy. I'm cool with it all. I have a garage loft full of bog roll, tinned tomatoes, beans and olive oil, oh and popcorn...
I think you credit the Tories with more power than they have over the populace. Our politicians follow, not lead.
And what London 2012 has to do with anything I have not the slightest clue. Brexit has meant harsher political polarisation in the last 4 years, but other than that this feels like the same country as 8 years ago to me.
Certain posters here are proving tonight why Intelligence and Wisdom are separate stats in D&D.
Indeed. D&D has some good and simple philosophy in it that other people sometimes really struggle with.
Other than stats one thing I like is the distinction between the Good/Neutral/Evil spectrum and the Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic spectrum. A lot of people lump lawful and good together but they're really, really not the same thing. I'd put my own views as Chaotic Good.
I'm definitely lawful something, but I'll it up to others to decide which other alignment fits.
I know several not very political people who are openly alarmed by the country's stance - one friend says she burst into tears at the ideas of threatening French fishermen with gunboats. But the D&D analogy is good. We definitely have Chaotic leadership. If it wasn't for Brexit and coronavirus and stuff, it might be quite fun a while. As it is, maybe not.
Bozo said no deal is no problem so why do you need to bailout certain sectors .
So yet another lie . And so the government fucks business and then has to step into mitigate the damage .
And those who were strongly against Leaving , younger people will now be saddled with yet more debt because grannie and grandad wanted to relive the Empire .
Joyous isn’t it.
It’s tragic . How the hell did the UK go from London 2012 to this . Just so much hate and division all peddled by the Tories who have decided that it’s a vote winner and helped along the way by the most despicable right wing press .
You might want to look in the mirror if you think all hate and division comes from Tories alone.
The very notion we should leave the EU, let alone the suggestion we should have a clean Brexit, leads to hate and anger from people here.
The angriest people on here this evening are Brexiteers. Former Remainers gave up worrying about Brexit on December 13th last year. The big man got an 80 seat majority and said he had an oven ready WA and a trade deal would be easy. I'm cool with it all. I have a garage loft full of bog roll, tinned tomatoes, beans and olive oil, oh and popcorn...
I completely agree. For me, Brexit is now nothing more than entertainment. The only value it has for me is to watch the gyrations of the World's Worst Winners (the Leavers) as they face the fulfilment of their fantasy.
Brexit has to be a soap opera because reality could never be this absurd....
I think you credit the Tories with more power than they have over the populace. Our politicians follow, not lead.
And what London 2012 has to do with anything I have not the slightest clue. Brexit has meant harsher political polarisation in the last 4 years, but other than that this feels like the same country as 8 years ago to me.
Certain posters here are proving tonight why Intelligence and Wisdom are separate stats in D&D.
Indeed. D&D has some good and simple philosophy in it that other people sometimes really struggle with.
Other than stats one thing I like is the distinction between the Good/Neutral/Evil spectrum and the Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic spectrum. A lot of people lump lawful and good together but they're really, really not the same thing. I'd put my own views as Chaotic Good.
I'm definitely lawful something, but I'll it up to others to decide which other alignment fits.
I know several not very political people who are openly alarmed by the country's stance - one friend says she burst into tears at the ideas of threatening French fishermen with gunboats. But the D&D analogy is good. We definitely have Chaotic leadership. If it wasn't for Brexit and coronavirus and stuff, it might be quite fun a while. As it is, maybe not.
I'm sorry but that really shows no more than their own feelings on the issue. As do the various emotional posts we've seen over the past few days here along the lines of 'what's happened to my country?????' - to which the only answer is 'nothing'. Nothing has happened. It's you. It's your perspective.
Bozo said no deal is no problem so why do you need to bailout certain sectors .
So yet another lie . And so the government fucks business and then has to step into mitigate the damage .
And those who were strongly against Leaving , younger people will now be saddled with yet more debt because grannie and grandad wanted to relive the Empire .
Joyous isn’t it.
It’s tragic . How the hell did the UK go from London 2012 to this . Just so much hate and division all peddled by the Tories who have decided that it’s a vote winner and helped along the way by the most despicable right wing press .
You might want to look in the mirror if you think all hate and division comes from Tories alone.
The very notion we should leave the EU, let alone the suggestion we should have a clean Brexit, leads to hate and anger from people here.
The angriest people on here this evening are Brexiteers. Former Remainers gave up worrying about Brexit on December 13th last year. The big man got an 80 seat majority and said he had an oven ready WA and a trade deal would be easy. I'm cool with it all. I have a garage loft full of bog roll, tinned tomatoes, beans and olive oil, oh and popcorn...
It’s bizarre you’d think they’d be happy . They won , we lost . Except of course they’ve run out of polish for the Brexit turd . Same with the right wing press , they’re going into major EU scapegoat mode after peddling a pack of lies for the last 4 years . The sunlit uplands replaced by a flooded lorry park in Kent built on a flood plain !
Bozo said no deal is no problem so why do you need to bailout certain sectors .
So yet another lie . And so the government fucks business and then has to step into mitigate the damage .
And those who were strongly against Leaving , younger people will now be saddled with yet more debt because grannie and grandad wanted to relive the Empire .
Joyous isn’t it.
It’s tragic . How the hell did the UK go from London 2012 to this . Just so much hate and division all peddled by the Tories who have decided that it’s a vote winner and helped along the way by the most despicable right wing press .
You might want to look in the mirror if you think all hate and division comes from Tories alone.
The very notion we should leave the EU, let alone the suggestion we should have a clean Brexit, leads to hate and anger from people here.
The angriest people on here this evening are Brexiteers. Former Remainers gave up worrying about Brexit on December 13th last year. The big man got an 80 seat majority and said he had an oven ready WA and a trade deal would be easy. I'm cool with it all. I have a garage loft full of bog roll, tinned tomatoes, beans and olive oil, oh and popcorn...
It’s bizarre you’d think they’d be happy . They won , we lost . Except of course they’ve run out of polish for the Brexit turd . Same with the right wing press , they’re going into major EU scapegoat mode after peddling a pack of lies for the last 4 years . The sunlit uplands replaced by a flooded lorry park in Kent built on a flood plain !
I'm extremely happy. I think both options (deal and no deal) are great for different reasons.
Bozo said no deal is no problem so why do you need to bailout certain sectors .
So yet another lie . And so the government fucks business and then has to step into mitigate the damage .
And those who were strongly against Leaving , younger people will now be saddled with yet more debt because grannie and grandad wanted to relive the Empire .
Joyous isn’t it.
It’s tragic . How the hell did the UK go from London 2012 to this . Just so much hate and division all peddled by the Tories who have decided that it’s a vote winner and helped along the way by the most despicable right wing press .
You might want to look in the mirror if you think all hate and division comes from Tories alone.
The very notion we should leave the EU, let alone the suggestion we should have a clean Brexit, leads to hate and anger from people here.
The angriest people on here this evening are Brexiteers. Former Remainers gave up worrying about Brexit on December 13th last year. The big man got an 80 seat majority and said he had an oven ready WA and a trade deal would be easy. I'm cool with it all. I have a garage loft full of bog roll, tinned tomatoes, beans and olive oil, oh and popcorn...
Bozo said no deal is no problem so why do you need to bailout certain sectors .
So yet another lie . And so the government fucks business and then has to step into mitigate the damage .
And those who were strongly against Leaving , younger people will now be saddled with yet more debt because grannie and grandad wanted to relive the Empire .
Joyous isn’t it.
It’s tragic . How the hell did the UK go from London 2012 to this . Just so much hate and division all peddled by the Tories who have decided that it’s a vote winner and helped along the way by the most despicable right wing press .
You might want to look in the mirror if you think all hate and division comes from Tories alone.
The very notion we should leave the EU, let alone the suggestion we should have a clean Brexit, leads to hate and anger from people here.
The angriest people on here this evening are Brexiteers. Former Remainers gave up worrying about Brexit on December 13th last year. The big man got an 80 seat majority and said he had an oven ready WA and a trade deal would be easy. I'm cool with it all. I have a garage loft full of bog roll, tinned tomatoes, beans and olive oil, oh and popcorn...
Yeah, I am prepared too. Just glad that I am in a safe job while this turd hits the fan.
It is 🍿🍿🍿 time while we watch leavers enjoy their sovereignty.
Bozo said no deal is no problem so why do you need to bailout certain sectors .
So yet another lie . And so the government fucks business and then has to step into mitigate the damage .
And those who were strongly against Leaving , younger people will now be saddled with yet more debt because grannie and grandad wanted to relive the Empire .
Joyous isn’t it.
It’s tragic . How the hell did the UK go from London 2012 to this . Just so much hate and division all peddled by the Tories who have decided that it’s a vote winner and helped along the way by the most despicable right wing press .
You might want to look in the mirror if you think all hate and division comes from Tories alone.
The very notion we should leave the EU, let alone the suggestion we should have a clean Brexit, leads to hate and anger from people here.
The angriest people on here this evening are Brexiteers. Former Remainers gave up worrying about Brexit on December 13th last year. The big man got an 80 seat majority and said he had an oven ready WA and a trade deal would be easy. I'm cool with it all. I have a garage loft full of bog roll, tinned tomatoes, beans and olive oil, oh and popcorn...
It’s bizarre you’d think they’d be happy . They won , we lost . Except of course they’ve run out of polish for the Brexit turd . Same with the right wing press , they’re going into major EU scapegoat mode after peddling a pack of lies for the last 4 years . The sunlit uplands replaced by a flooded lorry park in Kent built on a flood plain !
I'm extremely happy. I think both options (deal and no deal) are great for different reasons.
Vox pops from the pub, this is in Hampstead, but a lock in so mostly working class people who aren't going to snitch like middle class c***s. Boris is fucked either way. No deal isn't seen as a big deal. The blame for no deal is placed on 1 - the EU and 2 - remainers who blocked brexit for so long. Any trade deal must meet the minimum standard of allowing the UK to not follow EU rules in the short or medium term and definitely not in the long term. The ratchet clause is basically not understood by most, from that perspective it is seen as EU trickery to tie the UK into something that only the EU understands. Ok fishing basically unanimous support for the UK to defend its territory by whatever means necessary, it's the one thing that united everyone, military defense of territory was seen as a likely end result.
Support for no deal was low, however, it went up significantly when the fishing issues were raised. Basically it is, IMO, the single issue that will get Boris his justification for no deal among shire Tories as well as red wall converts. Fishing indemnifies Boris from no deal blame as long as the EU continued to ask for 82% of UK fishing quotas.
Vox pops from the pub, this is in Hampstead, but a lock in so mostly working class people who aren't going to snitch like middle class c***s. Boris is fucked either way. No deal isn't seen as a big deal. The blame for no deal is placed on 1 - the EU and 2 - remainers who blocked brexit for so long. Any trade deal must meet the minimum standard of allowing the UK to not follow EU rules in the short or medium term and definitely not in the long term. The ratchet clause is basically not understood by most, from that perspective it is seen as EU trickery to tie the UK into something that only the EU understands. Ok fishing basically unanimous support for the UK to defend its territory by whatever means necessary, it's the one thing that united everyone, military defense of territory was seen as a likely end result.
Support for no deal was low, however, it went up significantly when the fishing issues were raised. Basically it is, IMO, the single issue that will get Boris his justification for no deal among shire Tories as well as red wall converts. Fishing indemnifies Boris from no deal blame as long as the EU continued to ask for 82% of UK fishing quotas.
Plenty of Cognitive dissonance served up with the beer there!
BoZo has had an eighty seat majority for a year. The only one to blame for either No Deal, or a crap deal is him and his government.
The EU's "talk to the hand" choreography makes it all the more bizarre since everyone knows that the solution to this is political and the blockage is bilateral between Macron and Boris. So those talks needed to take place.
And yet for appearances sake they maintain this façade of absolute Spartan-like unity commanded by the hive mind in Brussels.
Intractable and insecure, which will ultimately result in a lose-lose.
No, the EU27 have had a consistent position all along, and that is the one that Barnier negotiates. Going round to Merkel or Macron fundamentally misunderstands how a union works. A union stands together, and has an appointed negotiator.
One of the constants on PB is reading that the UK is talking to the wrong people.
If its talking to Macron or Merkel then we're told it would be better to talk to the EU.
If its talking to the EU then we're told it would be better to talk to Macron and Merkel.
No, when talking to the EU, you definitely do not get told to talk to Macron and Merkel. That's the kind of nonsense the British media is conveying. Complete nonsense.
It's not nonsense. The EU derives its negotiating mandate from the EU27 in the European Council.
To say it's all magicked up by the Commission out of thin air, who are the only ones who matter, is laughable.
This is a political problem with domestic political audiences and it's quite right that political conversations at that level should have taken place.
They won't of course because of optics and obstinacy so now we'll get No Deal.
Your first two sentences are correct. The mandate is given by the Council, not magicked up by the Commision. The last time that happened was 36 hours ago. And then the Commision conducts the negotiations, as mandated. And that's it. End of story. Anything else is projection or deflection.
All of my post is correct. The due process crap is just pompous inflexibility from a SHIT organisation that is now going to real the fruits of No Deal due to its arrogance and inflexibilty.
Let me be clear: you lose me as a moderate Leaver from 1st Jan 2021. I go ultra hard-line from then on and will brook no compromise thereafter.
Save this post. Look back on it in years to come when you try and understand the disaster that befell you.
Welcome. There's beer in the fridge.
You'll be needing it. But one of you tends to get super aggressive so watch out.
The EU's "talk to the hand" choreography makes it all the more bizarre since everyone knows that the solution to this is political and the blockage is bilateral between Macron and Boris. So those talks needed to take place.
And yet for appearances sake they maintain this façade of absolute Spartan-like unity commanded by the hive mind in Brussels.
Intractable and insecure, which will ultimately result in a lose-lose.
No, the EU27 have had a consistent position all along, and that is the one that Barnier negotiates. Going round to Merkel or Macron fundamentally misunderstands how a union works. A union stands together, and has an appointed negotiator.
What's hilarious about this post is that you actually believe this.
I see you find it incomprehensible that the EU27 mean what they say. I think it the obvious explanation of how things have developed.
The EU27 are deeply split but can only move if everyone agrees. Since France (and a few countries tentatively rowing in behind it on fish) does not they cannot.
You are either falling for the propaganda or being deliberately obtuse. Possibly both.
The EU are split on lots of things, but actually Brexit isn't really one of them.
Yes they are. And their pathetic attempts to paper over the cracks isn't fooling anyone except those who want to be fooled.
No they're really not. I follow EU politics and the Brexit debate in quite a lot of detail for work and benefit from talking to people who are very well informed. Of course there are some differences in emphasis and approach, with the French taking a more hardline position and the Irish most desperate to compromise. But compared to the arguments on the EU budget and the rule of law provisions around the Covid fiscal package, or fiscal risk-sharing in the euro area, or the handling of the Greek crisis, or the migrant crisis, the degree of unity over Brexit is striking. The EU wants to protect the single market above all else, and there is unanimity on that. The negotiating mandate has been agreed. The view in the EU is that no deal is better than a bad deal. FWIW I think they should show more willingness to compromise, and they well be doing that behind the scenes - there is not much clarity over the state of the negotiations right now, which is probably a good sign. I still think we will get a deal although it may well be a bumpy path over the next couple of weeks and the likelihood of no deal is rising.
As I said earlier this is rubbish. A trade deal with the UK does no more to damage the Single Market than a trade deal with Canada since we are not in the Single Market and have not asked to be in it. Indeed as I have stated all along I wish we were aiming to be in it like Norway or Iceland but we are not asking for that. So this is just some made up bullshit excuse when the real issue is they hate and fear the idea of a country being on their borders which might be a successful trading challenge to them by undercutting or undermining their sclerotic systems.
A bit of cognitive dissonance there.
Not at all. The sclerotic systems relate to their overall governance not to the trade elations they have with the EFTA members - who as you well know are outside the scope of EU governance.
Vox pops from the pub, this is in Hampstead, but a lock in so mostly working class people who aren't going to snitch like middle class c***s. Boris is fucked either way. No deal isn't seen as a big deal. The blame for no deal is placed on 1 - the EU and 2 - remainers who blocked brexit for so long. Any trade deal must meet the minimum standard of allowing the UK to not follow EU rules in the short or medium term and definitely not in the long term. The ratchet clause is basically not understood by most, from that perspective it is seen as EU trickery to tie the UK into something that only the EU understands. Ok fishing basically unanimous support for the UK to defend its territory by whatever means necessary, it's the one thing that united everyone, military defense of territory was seen as a likely end result.
Support for no deal was low, however, it went up significantly when the fishing issues were raised. Basically it is, IMO, the single issue that will get Boris his justification for no deal among shire Tories as well as red wall converts. Fishing indemnifies Boris from no deal blame as long as the EU continued to ask for 82% of UK fishing quotas.
Plenty of Cognitive dissonance served up with the beer there!
BoZo has had an eighty seat majority for a year. The only one to blame for either No Deal, or a crap deal is him and his government.
In vino veritas.
This is how the people felt. I don't give many fucks about fishing, most people at the lock in disagreed with me and said it was a matter of honour. Boris would be justified to no deal on that basis alone even if the rest of the deal was perfect. As I see it now, enough people will feel that Boris is doing the right thing by no dealing on fishing rights. Everything else is too difficult to understand or make sense of, fishing rights is something everyone understands and people who didn't know also understood each party's position very quickly. As I said, it agitated people much more than anything else such as the LPF.
I think the Covid crisis is real and permeates the public mood. Brexit - I'm much less sure how much salience that has at ground level. You probably won't agree but outside the 'bubble' most folk don't really engage.
How can you tell from Catalonia?
I don't live in Catalonia. The opinion polls seem to me to reflect the public mood - I also have family and friends in the UK - we talk.
Bozo said no deal is no problem so why do you need to bailout certain sectors .
So yet another lie . And so the government fucks business and then has to step into mitigate the damage .
And those who were strongly against Leaving , younger people will now be saddled with yet more debt because grannie and grandad wanted to relive the Empire .
No it's because young people couldn't be bothered to vote. As always.
I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.
In London, there was an active Polish community in the west of the capital. The Czechoslovaks settled in NW London (I once ate at the Czech & Slovak Club in West End Lane, quite an experience).
As someone else said, there were some soldiers from the various occupied countries who managed to effect an escape to Britain and would doubtless have tried to stop the invading Germans had they landed. There were various Governments-in-exile as well as King Haakon of Norway, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and other foreign royalty.
I remember that Czech club! A very unusual experience, a high ceilinged house, like eating in the front room of a seaside B&B. A rather subdued and formal atmosphere, with some aged Czech regulars in their Sunday best. A good preparation for visiting just after the iron curtain fell; if it’s still the same, today not so much.
We have a Ukrainian club in Leicester (founded by Ukranians from the prewar Polish part of Ukraine around Lviv). Excellent Ukrainian beer, and good hosts for functions.
The Ukraine is never a country I think of as having excellent beer.
Their geographic location and influences mean they have both excellent beer and excellent vodka!
Vox pops from the pub, this is in Hampstead, but a lock in so mostly working class people who aren't going to snitch like middle class c***s. Boris is fucked either way. No deal isn't seen as a big deal. The blame for no deal is placed on 1 - the EU and 2 - remainers who blocked brexit for so long. Any trade deal must meet the minimum standard of allowing the UK to not follow EU rules in the short or medium term and definitely not in the long term. The ratchet clause is basically not understood by most, from that perspective it is seen as EU trickery to tie the UK into something that only the EU understands. Ok fishing basically unanimous support for the UK to defend its territory by whatever means necessary, it's the one thing that united everyone, military defense of territory was seen as a likely end result.
Support for no deal was low, however, it went up significantly when the fishing issues were raised. Basically it is, IMO, the single issue that will get Boris his justification for no deal among shire Tories as well as red wall converts. Fishing indemnifies Boris from no deal blame as long as the EU continued to ask for 82% of UK fishing quotas.
So basically obsessed with a detail that is economically irrelevant, and otherwise in fantasyland. Though you have to admire the ability of a government with a majority of 80 to convince its supporters that anything they do is someone else’s fault.
Comments
So yet another lie . And so the government fucks business and then has to step into mitigate the damage .
And those who were strongly against Leaving , younger people will now be saddled with yet more debt because grannie and grandad wanted to relive the Empire .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55286237
I am sorry but i have no sympathy...we all know the deal now and we know the situation can change. Don't f##king go travelling when you don't need to, cos "it be nice to.be in the sun for a week".
I will merely add that the UK government should talk to any and all, in the appropriate ways and appropriate times.
What they may be I don't know but I dare say that Foreign Office types would give advice.
Other than stats one thing I like is the distinction between the Good/Neutral/Evil spectrum and the Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic spectrum. A lot of people lump lawful and good together but they're really, really not the same thing. I'd put my own views as Chaotic Good.
And what London 2012 has to do with anything I have not the slightest clue. Brexit has meant harsher political polarisation in the last 4 years, but other than that this feels like the same country as 8 years ago to me. I'm definitely lawful something, but I'll it up to others to decide which other alignment fits.
The very notion we should leave the EU, let alone the suggestion we should have a clean Brexit, leads to hate and anger from people here.
Brexit has to be a soap opera because reality could never be this absurd....
It is 🍿🍿🍿 time while we watch leavers enjoy their sovereignty.
https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1337925337003470849?s=19
Support for no deal was low, however, it went up significantly when the fishing issues were raised. Basically it is, IMO, the single issue that will get Boris his justification for no deal among shire Tories as well as red wall converts. Fishing indemnifies Boris from no deal blame as long as the EU continued to ask for 82% of UK fishing quotas.
BoZo has had an eighty seat majority for a year. The only one to blame for either No Deal, or a crap deal is him and his government.
But one of you tends to get super aggressive so watch out.
This is how the people felt. I don't give many fucks about fishing, most people at the lock in disagreed with me and said it was a matter of honour. Boris would be justified to no deal on that basis alone even if the rest of the deal was perfect. As I see it now, enough people will feel that Boris is doing the right thing by no dealing on fishing rights. Everything else is too difficult to understand or make sense of, fishing rights is something everyone understands and people who didn't know also understood each party's position very quickly. As I said, it agitated people much more than anything else such as the LPF.
https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1337920751404523522?s=20
Though you have to admire the ability of a government with a majority of 80 to convince its supporters that anything they do is someone else’s fault.