Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
But more wars than caused by religion?
Yup.
You can make a case that more wars have started because of religion, but in terms of casualties are much higher in the wars of nationalism.
Or you can also argue religion has been an excuse to start wars that were mainly nationalistic in character.
From your list, the Bar Kokhba revolt springs to mind.
Or the Spanish Reconquista.
I don't think that you can really seperate the two. While the modern concept of the Nation state date to the Treaty of Westphalia, and certainly nationalistc wars have been particularly bloody, national consciousness has often centered on religion.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
But more wars than caused by religion?
Yup.
You can make a case that more wars have started because of religion, but in terms of casualties are much higher in the wars of nationalism.
Or you can also argue religion has been an excuse to start wars that were mainly nationalistic in character.
From your list, the Bar Kokhba revolt springs to mind.
Or the Spanish Reconquista.
I don't think that you can really seperate the two. While the modern concept of the Nation state date to the Treaty of Westphalia, and certainly nationalistc wars have been particularly bloody, national consciousness has often centered on religion.
I suppose the prize example of that would be the Holy Roman Empire?
IDK, it seems like one of those geopolitical issues the world is content to just ignore for decade upon decade and never has any intention of resolving, so on the face of it it feels like blundering in as reduced impact.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
The issue is obviously complex but clearly it’s a “punching up, punching down” thing. I think the concept of “Civic Nationalism” an absolute oxymoron with no basis in reality or history whatsoever. However if Welsh and Scottish Nationalism are a reaction against English domination of the Union (and let’s face it, that’s what they are they are) then I have no problem with it. It’s punching up against a stronger/bigger party. What’s English Nationalism punching up against? The EU. And I’m not getting into that argument.
Well, bluntly they seem to me to be equivalent and the negativity is largely about anti-English xenophobia.
But again, that’s me as a Welshman who was born in England and lives there now.
All nationalism (despite what UnionDivvie and David Aaranovich might say) are rooted in “the other” ie “we are this, we are not that”. Take the other, the “that” out of the equation (the English in the case of Celtic Nationalism) and there is no reason for a nation or nationalism. It’s all xenophobic to a degree but if your “this” is being subsumed by the other’s “that” then there is justification for the xenophobia.
I’m a municipalist. Any jurisdictional unit bigger than a town (the “polis” in political) and it’s hinterland is suspect in my view. Counties at most. Classical Greece and Renaissance Italy had it right. Anything bigger than that needs destructive myths to create sufficient unity to keep it going.
Were the states of Classical Greece or Renaissance Italy noted for harmonious coexistence?
Either a relaunch of the Manhole Appeciation Society (perhaps to be renamed the Peoplehole Appreciation Society as a sign of the times), or to announce the formation of a committee of some very fine folks, only some of whom will later turn out to be raging antisemites, for the promotion of peace in the world, which we have been sorely lacking.
News from the frontline of the pub trade as they battle to stay in business. No doubt @Cyclefree will sympathise.
"The last nine months have been without a doubt the hardest of my ten-year hospitality career and it will have been the same for everyone else involved in the business.
If you live in a Tier 2 area, please please please go and support your local pub or restaurant. The situation really is desperate so even if you have to have a meal and you don’t want to, just suck it up because the pressure these managers and landlords are feeling is immense."
Right last word before I dive back into Strictly and football my work, as someone whose day job covers anti-money laundering regulations, banking regs in general, and financial crimes in general, can I thank some of you for the laughs tonight.
If you really want to worry about something, have a dive into CIFAS markers and the consequences of that.
Either a relaunch of the Manhole Appeciation Society (perhaps to be renamed the Peoplehole Appreciation Society as a sign of the times), or to announce the formation of a committee of some very fine folks, only some of whom will later turn out to be raging antisemites, for the promotion of peace in the world, which we have been sorely lacking.
Perhaps a campaign for prison reform...that happens to end up getting ISIS terrorists out of jail?
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
The issue is obviously complex but clearly it’s a “punching up, punching down” thing. I think the concept of “Civic Nationalism” an absolute oxymoron with no basis in reality or history whatsoever. However if Welsh and Scottish Nationalism are a reaction against English domination of the Union (and let’s face it, that’s what they are they are) then I have no problem with it. It’s punching up against a stronger/bigger party. What’s English Nationalism punching up against? The EU. And I’m not getting into that argument.
Well, bluntly they seem to me to be equivalent and the negativity is largely about anti-English xenophobia.
But again, that’s me as a Welshman who was born in England and lives there now.
All nationalism (despite what UnionDivvie and David Aaranovich might say) are rooted in “the other” ie “we are this, we are not that”. Take the other, the “that” out of the equation (the English in the case of Celtic Nationalism) and there is no reason for a nation or nationalism. It’s all xenophobic to a degree but if your “this” is being subsumed by the other’s “that” then there is justification for the xenophobia.
I’m a municipalist. Any jurisdictional unit bigger than a town (the “polis” in political) and it’s hinterland is suspect in my view. Counties at most. Classical Greece and Renaissance Italy had it right. Anything bigger than that needs destructive myths to create sufficient unity to keep it going.
Yes, I agree. The increasingly rules based international order, compared to historical "might makes right" imperialism, means that increasingly we are going to have a world of city states in loose federal structures, like the EU.
I still use cash because there are some outlets that don't take cards. Otherwise, whats the point?
We don't use money in this country, we use currency. No need to create physical representation of a currency where the only value is the one assigned to it by the tax-raising powers of the state. So if it largely becomes digital so what - so many transactions are the digital movements of digital money anyway.
Actually, I imagine Corbyn is returning his Nobel Peace Prize and going on hunger strike until there is justice for himsel...I mean Labour party members being crushed under the boot of Keir 'Josef Stalin' Starmer.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
Howzabout Imperialism, or is that a variation on nationalism?
A bit of crossover.
Then again not all empires are equal.
Take the British Empire, people say it was bad, but where did the largest volunteer army in history come from?
The British Indian Army.
I love Max Hastings' account of the Burmese campaign in 1945, "the last great adventure of the Imperial Indian Army." I've not read it yet, but by all accounts, George Macdonald Fraser's book, Quartered Out Here, is outstanding.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
The issue is obviously complex but clearly it’s a “punching up, punching down” thing. I think the concept of “Civic Nationalism” an absolute oxymoron with no basis in reality or history whatsoever. However if Welsh and Scottish Nationalism are a reaction against English domination of the Union (and let’s face it, that’s what they are they are) then I have no problem with it. It’s punching up against a stronger/bigger party. What’s English Nationalism punching up against? The EU. And I’m not getting into that argument.
Well, bluntly they seem to me to be equivalent and the negativity is largely about anti-English xenophobia.
But again, that’s me as a Welshman who was born in England and lives there now.
All nationalism (despite what UnionDivvie and David Aaranovich might say) are rooted in “the other” ie “we are this, we are not that”. Take the other, the “that” out of the equation (the English in the case of Celtic Nationalism) and there is no reason for a nation or nationalism. It’s all xenophobic to a degree but if your “this” is being subsumed by the other’s “that” then there is justification for the xenophobia.
I’m a municipalist. Any jurisdictional unit bigger than a town (the “polis” in political) and it’s hinterland is suspect in my view. Counties at most. Classical Greece and Renaissance Italy had it right. Anything bigger than that needs destructive myths to create sufficient unity to keep it going.
Were the states of Classical Greece or Renaissance Italy noted for harmonious coexistence?
Oh they had their tiffs to be sure but the scale of the conflict was necessarily smaller. You also were far more likely to personally know the people you were fighting for and have a stake in the outcome.
Take Ireland, religious war or nationalism writ large as Ireland is invaded via a Papul Bull and mass immigration (or the great replacement) in the North sees a country torn asunder.
I see the IRA as Christian freedom fighters.
Wars of imperialism have surely killed more than either nationalism or religion.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
The issue is obviously complex but clearly it’s a “punching up, punching down” thing. I think the concept of “Civic Nationalism” an absolute oxymoron with no basis in reality or history whatsoever. However if Welsh and Scottish Nationalism are a reaction against English domination of the Union (and let’s face it, that’s what they are they are) then I have no problem with it. It’s punching up against a stronger/bigger party. What’s English Nationalism punching up against? The EU. And I’m not getting into that argument.
Well, bluntly they seem to me to be equivalent and the negativity is largely about anti-English xenophobia.
But again, that’s me as a Welshman who was born in England and lives there now.
All nationalism (despite what UnionDivvie and David Aaranovich might say) are rooted in “the other” ie “we are this, we are not that”. Take the other, the “that” out of the equation (the English in the case of Celtic Nationalism) and there is no reason for a nation or nationalism. It’s all xenophobic to a degree but if your “this” is being subsumed by the other’s “that” then there is justification for the xenophobia.
I’m a municipalist. Any jurisdictional unit bigger than a town (the “polis” in political) and it’s hinterland is suspect in my view. Counties at most. Classical Greece and Renaissance Italy had it right. Anything bigger than that needs destructive myths to create sufficient unity to keep it going.
Were the states of Classical Greece or Renaissance Italy noted for harmonious coexistence?
It depends on your definition of harmonious. They were very, very good at orchestrating their wars with each other - quite the symphony, really.
I still use cash because there are some outlets that don't take cards. Otherwise, whats the point?
We don't use money in this country, we use currency. No need to create physical representation of a currency where the only value is the one assigned to it by the tax-raising powers of the state. So if it largely becomes digital so what - so many transactions are the digital movements of digital money anyway.
I merely take the stance that the less information we give to the state the better. While certainly it won't probably be misused now you are also putting your faith in the next 10 to 20 governments also not to misuse it.
While we have physical currency we can always fall back on it to provide privacy . When it is gone it's too late as we won't be getting it back. History is replete with people giving their state information and then wishing they hadn't. Example the ones that ticked japanese for ethnicity in the census before pearl harbour and then got interned
Those guys are pathetically needy - I've just seen their description on twitter, and it's 'Page for Left Wingers and Socialists. Followed by Jeremy Corbyn'.
On vaccines I'm starting to agree with @TSE that HMG will merrily f*ck-up rapid vaccine roll-out. A few thousand will happen before Christmas, and then it'll fizzle out.
That's not a political point - still less a Brexit one - it's just the public sector and civil service are really shit at rapid complex large-scale programmes.
They're good at policy papers and media angles - not delivery.
Nah it is being handled by the Civil Service, there is a designated provider in each site, usually a CCG. Leicester started today, held up a few days by the change to protocols caused by the anaphylaxis issue.
Objectively, how confident are you - honestly?
Pretty confident. The first 800 000 will be used up by next week. Let's hope the second dose arrives on time.
Organising vaccines is bread and butter work for CCGs. I think the AZN vaccine may take a bit longer, the data was pretty crap, mixing too many groups, and using meningococcal vaccine as the control was a bit odd too. Even vaccines for other conditions prime the immune system, so a poor control according to our virologist.
800,000 used up this week...
Interesting, because there was SOMEONE on this board who refused to believe we'd get to 100,000 a week by New Year.
Who could that be?
I did not refuse to believe. I simply questioned the optimism.
Well you are half right. At this rate it'd take over a year to vaccinate everyone, so a considerable expansion in capacity is needed.
It will ramp up if an easier to handle vaccine such as the AZN or Sputnik were licensed. Our prof of Virology surprised me by being quite complimentary about the Sputnik. Indeed the AZN/Sputnik combination trial is quite an interesting one, as different vectors in each.
Where are we with AZN? Is it now with MHRA? Or have the company/oxford not submitted data yet? There's been a paper in Lancet.
They've submitted - there was talk of potential approval around Christmas, though as noted above the trial was not ideal. It's tricky for the MHRA - clearly ir's somewhat effective and much easier (and cheaper) to deliver than the others, but in normal circs I think they'd tell them to go away and come back when they had some more trial data in a few months. But a lot of people can die in a few months, so...? Ideally we'd buy another 150 million Pfizer/Moderrna, but I think they're now booked up for the first half of the year.
A new party to be known as the "Workers and Nationhood Kinship",, assembling like-minded souls who share Jeremy's vision from around the globe. Israeli nationals need not apply.
Those guys are pathetically needy - I've just seen their description on twitter, and it's 'Page for Left Wingers and Socialists. Followed by Jeremy Corbyn'.
Yes. It's curious how it's all about Jezza. He isn't even competent. If it were McDonnell it might make a modicum of sense.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
The issue is obviously complex but clearly it’s a “punching up, punching down” thing. I think the concept of “Civic Nationalism” an absolute oxymoron with no basis in reality or history whatsoever. However if Welsh and Scottish Nationalism are a reaction against English domination of the Union (and let’s face it, that’s what they are they are) then I have no problem with it. It’s punching up against a stronger/bigger party. What’s English Nationalism punching up against? The EU. And I’m not getting into that argument.
Well, bluntly they seem to me to be equivalent and the negativity is largely about anti-English xenophobia.
But again, that’s me as a Welshman who was born in England and lives there now.
All nationalism (despite what UnionDivvie and David Aaranovich might say) are rooted in “the other” ie “we are this, we are not that”. Take the other, the “that” out of the equation (the English in the case of Celtic Nationalism) and there is no reason for a nation or nationalism. It’s all xenophobic to a degree but if your “this” is being subsumed by the other’s “that” then there is justification for the xenophobia.
I’m a municipalist. Any jurisdictional unit bigger than a town (the “polis” in political) and it’s hinterland is suspect in my view. Counties at most. Classical Greece and Renaissance Italy had it right. Anything bigger than that needs destructive myths to create sufficient unity to keep it going.
Were the states of Classical Greece or Renaissance Italy noted for harmonious coexistence?
Oh they had their tiffs to be sure but the scale of the conflict was necessarily smaller. You also were far more likely to personally know the people you were fighting for and have a stake in the outcome.
Have you read the opinions of the... err.. Ancient Greeks on the Joy Joy that was the eternal Greek civil war?
Take Ireland, religious war or nationalism writ large as Ireland is invaded via a Papul Bull and mass immigration (or the great replacement) in the North sees a country torn asunder.
I see the IRA as Christian freedom fighters.
That is how they portrayed themselves in the USA and South Africa, whereas in the Eastern bloc and Libya, they were devout marxists.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
Howzabout Imperialism, or is that a variation on nationalism?
A bit of crossover.
Then again not all empires are equal.
Take the British Empire, people say it was bad, but where did the largest volunteer army in history come from?
The British Indian Army.
I love Max Hastings' account of the Burmese campaign in 1945, "the last great adventure of the Imperial Indian Army." I've not read it yet, but by all accounts, George Macdonald Fraser's book, Quartered Out Here, is outstanding.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
Partly because Wales and Scotland have yet to secede from a Britain often dominated by England, which may eventually come with Brexit, so some of the less broad-minded aspects of the Scottish and Welsh nationalist movements are often glossed over as details of independence movements from the traditionally dominant power.
Well, we get lots of ‘Little Englander’ comments, but none about ‘Little Scotlanders’ (except from Malc, of course).
As though people who prize Englishness are insular and arrogant and useless, while everyone who prizes Scottishness - as a smaller, poorer, more remote country with no meaningful direct lines of communication to another country - is outward looking and bold.
Which is bollocks on a whole bunch of levels.
(And if you want *real* insularity, try the Pwllheli branch of Plaid Cymru.)
In an era when Labour in Wales is manned by nincompoops, it is a crying shame that the LDs are irrelevant, save for the fragrant Kirsty, and Plaid are so unfortunately, absolutely chaotic.
I have voted Plaid at Assembly Elections, only for them to disappoint by attempting to make RT First Minister in a rainbow collation with Hamilton. Now Labour may be piss-poor, but RT would have ratcheted the incompetence to sub-Drakeford levels.
That said if Plaid offered me an Independent Wales inside the EU, post Scottish Independence, I would chew Adam Price's arm off. English Unionist by birth, heading down the road of insular Welsh Nationalism.
Kingsley Amis claimed that Dylan Thomas had only 3 words for this.
The second and third words were Welsh Nationalism.
Take Ireland, religious war or nationalism writ large as Ireland is invaded via a Papul Bull and mass immigration (or the great replacement) in the North sees a country torn asunder.
I see the IRA as Christian freedom fighters.
That is how they portrayed themselves in the USA and South Africa, whereas in the Eastern bloc and Libya, they were devout marxists.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
The issue is obviously complex but clearly it’s a “punching up, punching down” thing. I think the concept of “Civic Nationalism” an absolute oxymoron with no basis in reality or history whatsoever. However if Welsh and Scottish Nationalism are a reaction against English domination of the Union (and let’s face it, that’s what they are they are) then I have no problem with it. It’s punching up against a stronger/bigger party. What’s English Nationalism punching up against? The EU. And I’m not getting into that argument.
Well, bluntly they seem to me to be equivalent and the negativity is largely about anti-English xenophobia.
But again, that’s me as a Welshman who was born in England and lives there now.
All nationalism (despite what UnionDivvie and David Aaranovich might say) are rooted in “the other” ie “we are this, we are not that”. Take the other, the “that” out of the equation (the English in the case of Celtic Nationalism) and there is no reason for a nation or nationalism. It’s all xenophobic to a degree but if your “this” is being subsumed by the other’s “that” then there is justification for the xenophobia.
I’m a municipalist. Any jurisdictional unit bigger than a town (the “polis” in political) and it’s hinterland is suspect in my view. Counties at most. Classical Greece and Renaissance Italy had it right. Anything bigger than that needs destructive myths to create sufficient unity to keep it going.
Were the states of Classical Greece or Renaissance Italy noted for harmonious coexistence?
It depends on your definition of harmonious. They were very, very good at orchestrating their wars with each other - quite the symphony, really.
The Peloppennesian war was total war, by any measure.
I still use cash because there are some outlets that don't take cards. Otherwise, whats the point?
We don't use money in this country, we use currency. No need to create physical representation of a currency where the only value is the one assigned to it by the tax-raising powers of the state. So if it largely becomes digital so what - so many transactions are the digital movements of digital money anyway.
I merely take the stance that the less information we give to the state the better. While certainly it won't probably be misused now you are also putting your faith in the next 10 to 20 governments also not to misuse it.
While we have physical currency we can always fall back on it to provide privacy . When it is gone it's too late as we won't be getting it back. History is replete with people giving their state information and then wishing they hadn't. Example the ones that ticked japanese for ethnicity in the census before pearl harbour and then got interned
From what I hear, GCHQ track the dark web and related crypto security pretty effectively. Once inside they have a goldmine.
I still use cash because there are some outlets that don't take cards. Otherwise, whats the point?
We don't use money in this country, we use currency. No need to create physical representation of a currency where the only value is the one assigned to it by the tax-raising powers of the state. So if it largely becomes digital so what - so many transactions are the digital movements of digital money anyway.
I merely take the stance that the less information we give to the state the better. While certainly it won't probably be misused now you are also putting your faith in the next 10 to 20 governments also not to misuse it.
While we have physical currency we can always fall back on it to provide privacy . When it is gone it's too late as we won't be getting it back. History is replete with people giving their state information and then wishing they hadn't. Example the ones that ticked japanese for ethnicity in the census before pearl harbour and then got interned
From what I hear, GCHQ track the dark web and related crypto security pretty effectively. Once inside they have a goldmine.
I have no doubt they do. Indeed I am sure many dark web sites are honey pots for that reason. However I wasn't referring to those just that money does give us a fair amount of anonymity
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
The issue is obviously complex but clearly it’s a “punching up, punching down” thing. I think the concept of “Civic Nationalism” an absolute oxymoron with no basis in reality or history whatsoever. However if Welsh and Scottish Nationalism are a reaction against English domination of the Union (and let’s face it, that’s what they are they are) then I have no problem with it. It’s punching up against a stronger/bigger party. What’s English Nationalism punching up against? The EU. And I’m not getting into that argument.
Well, bluntly they seem to me to be equivalent and the negativity is largely about anti-English xenophobia.
But again, that’s me as a Welshman who was born in England and lives there now.
All nationalism (despite what UnionDivvie and David Aaranovich might say) are rooted in “the other” ie “we are this, we are not that”. Take the other, the “that” out of the equation (the English in the case of Celtic Nationalism) and there is no reason for a nation or nationalism. It’s all xenophobic to a degree but if your “this” is being subsumed by the other’s “that” then there is justification for the xenophobia.
I’m a municipalist. Any jurisdictional unit bigger than a town (the “polis” in political) and it’s hinterland is suspect in my view. Counties at most. Classical Greece and Renaissance Italy had it right. Anything bigger than that needs destructive myths to create sufficient unity to keep it going.
Were the states of Classical Greece or Renaissance Italy noted for harmonious coexistence?
Oh they had their tiffs to be sure but the scale of the conflict was necessarily smaller. You also were far more likely to personally know the people you were fighting for and have a stake in the outcome.
Have you read the opinions of the... err.. Ancient Greeks on the Joy Joy that was the eternal Greek civil war?
Yes, but modern city states are different beasts than classical times.
Those guys are pathetically needy - I've just seen their description on twitter, and it's 'Page for Left Wingers and Socialists. Followed by Jeremy Corbyn'.
Yes. It's curious how it's all about Jezza. He isn't even competent. If it were McDonnell it might make a modicum of sense.
In fairness they do include him too, and Ian Lavery for some reason, so their hero worship is not entirely Corbyn based.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
The issue is obviously complex but clearly it’s a “punching up, punching down” thing. I think the concept of “Civic Nationalism” an absolute oxymoron with no basis in reality or history whatsoever. However if Welsh and Scottish Nationalism are a reaction against English domination of the Union (and let’s face it, that’s what they are they are) then I have no problem with it. It’s punching up against a stronger/bigger party. What’s English Nationalism punching up against? The EU. And I’m not getting into that argument.
Well, bluntly they seem to me to be equivalent and the negativity is largely about anti-English xenophobia.
But again, that’s me as a Welshman who was born in England and lives there now.
All nationalism (despite what UnionDivvie and David Aaranovich might say) are rooted in “the other” ie “we are this, we are not that”. Take the other, the “that” out of the equation (the English in the case of Celtic Nationalism) and there is no reason for a nation or nationalism. It’s all xenophobic to a degree but if your “this” is being subsumed by the other’s “that” then there is justification for the xenophobia.
I’m a municipalist. Any jurisdictional unit bigger than a town (the “polis” in political) and it’s hinterland is suspect in my view. Counties at most. Classical Greece and Renaissance Italy had it right. Anything bigger than that needs destructive myths to create sufficient unity to keep it going.
Were the states of Classical Greece or Renaissance Italy noted for harmonious coexistence?
It depends on your definition of harmonious. They were very, very good at orchestrating their wars with each other - quite the symphony, really.
The Peloppennesian war was total war, by any measure.
It says something that the Greeks idea of why the Spartans lost was this - The guys who were total soldiers were beaten because eventually everyone else had to be total soldiers.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
The issue is obviously complex but clearly it’s a “punching up, punching down” thing. I think the concept of “Civic Nationalism” an absolute oxymoron with no basis in reality or history whatsoever. However if Welsh and Scottish Nationalism are a reaction against English domination of the Union (and let’s face it, that’s what they are they are) then I have no problem with it. It’s punching up against a stronger/bigger party. What’s English Nationalism punching up against? The EU. And I’m not getting into that argument.
Well, bluntly they seem to me to be equivalent and the negativity is largely about anti-English xenophobia.
But again, that’s me as a Welshman who was born in England and lives there now.
All nationalism (despite what UnionDivvie and David Aaranovich might say) are rooted in “the other” ie “we are this, we are not that”. Take the other, the “that” out of the equation (the English in the case of Celtic Nationalism) and there is no reason for a nation or nationalism. It’s all xenophobic to a degree but if your “this” is being subsumed by the other’s “that” then there is justification for the xenophobia.
I’m a municipalist. Any jurisdictional unit bigger than a town (the “polis” in political) and it’s hinterland is suspect in my view. Counties at most. Classical Greece and Renaissance Italy had it right. Anything bigger than that needs destructive myths to create sufficient unity to keep it going.
Were the states of Classical Greece or Renaissance Italy noted for harmonious coexistence?
Oh they had their tiffs to be sure but the scale of the conflict was necessarily smaller. You also were far more likely to personally know the people you were fighting for and have a stake in the outcome.
Have you read the opinions of the... err.. Ancient Greeks on the Joy Joy that was the eternal Greek civil war?
Yes, but modern city states are different beasts than classical times.
A lot are but a lot would also find themselves in internal strife resulting in violence as well probably. I can't honestly see slough being a self governing city state ending well for example
I still use cash because there are some outlets that don't take cards. Otherwise, whats the point?
We don't use money in this country, we use currency. No need to create physical representation of a currency where the only value is the one assigned to it by the tax-raising powers of the state. So if it largely becomes digital so what - so many transactions are the digital movements of digital money anyway.
I merely take the stance that the less information we give to the state the better. While certainly it won't probably be misused now you are also putting your faith in the next 10 to 20 governments also not to misuse it.
While we have physical currency we can always fall back on it to provide privacy . When it is gone it's too late as we won't be getting it back. History is replete with people giving their state information and then wishing they hadn't. Example the ones that ticked japanese for ethnicity in the census before pearl harbour and then got interned
Unless you are Greek with tens of thousands stuffed under the mattress you aren't to get much privacy - and besides your phone tells the powers that be where you are and what you do and who you do it with.
Currency has no value than that assigned to it by the state. A £20 pound note is a piece of plastic. I do have some physical money - gold and silver - which has intrinsic value.
On vaccines I'm starting to agree with @TSE that HMG will merrily f*ck-up rapid vaccine roll-out. A few thousand will happen before Christmas, and then it'll fizzle out.
That's not a political point - still less a Brexit one - it's just the public sector and civil service are really shit at rapid complex large-scale programmes.
They're good at policy papers and media angles - not delivery.
Nah it is being handled by the Civil Service, there is a designated provider in each site, usually a CCG. Leicester started today, held up a few days by the change to protocols caused by the anaphylaxis issue.
Objectively, how confident are you - honestly?
Pretty confident. The first 800 000 will be used up by next week. Let's hope the second dose arrives on time.
Organising vaccines is bread and butter work for CCGs. I think the AZN vaccine may take a bit longer, the data was pretty crap, mixing too many groups, and using meningococcal vaccine as the control was a bit odd too. Even vaccines for other conditions prime the immune system, so a poor control according to our virologist.
Wait, so 800,000 people are getting the first round, rather than 400,000 getting two rounds? A recipe for disaster.
Yep, that is the plan. Someone has faith in JIT logistics over Christmas 🤔
Right, so you do have concerns then?!
Not really. Inevitably a programme starts fairly slowly, and gains speed as people get more used to the process.
That's what we hope.
My contention is that I'm not sure the process will get off the ground but will instead bump along the bottom.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
The issue is obviously complex but clearly it’s a “punching up, punching down” thing. I think the concept of “Civic Nationalism” an absolute oxymoron with no basis in reality or history whatsoever. However if Welsh and Scottish Nationalism are a reaction against English domination of the Union (and let’s face it, that’s what they are they are) then I have no problem with it. It’s punching up against a stronger/bigger party. What’s English Nationalism punching up against? The EU. And I’m not getting into that argument.
Well, bluntly they seem to me to be equivalent and the negativity is largely about anti-English xenophobia.
But again, that’s me as a Welshman who was born in England and lives there now.
All nationalism (despite what UnionDivvie and David Aaranovich might say) are rooted in “the other” ie “we are this, we are not that”. Take the other, the “that” out of the equation (the English in the case of Celtic Nationalism) and there is no reason for a nation or nationalism. It’s all xenophobic to a degree but if your “this” is being subsumed by the other’s “that” then there is justification for the xenophobia.
I’m a municipalist. Any jurisdictional unit bigger than a town (the “polis” in political) and it’s hinterland is suspect in my view. Counties at most. Classical Greece and Renaissance Italy had it right. Anything bigger than that needs destructive myths to create sufficient unity to keep it going.
Were the states of Classical Greece or Renaissance Italy noted for harmonious coexistence?
It depends on your definition of harmonious. They were very, very good at orchestrating their wars with each other - quite the symphony, really.
The Peloppennesian war was total war, by any measure.
It says something that the Greeks idea of why the Spartans lost was this - The guys who were total soldiers were beaten because eventually everyone else had to be total soldiers.
Didn't the Spartans win the Peloppennesian war? Not that any hegemony lasted long, as I understand it.
Athens and Sparta, rival cities of antiquity, have signed a 'symbolic' peace pact that officially ends the Peloponnesian War that ravaged Greece 2,500 years ago
On vaccines I'm starting to agree with @TSE that HMG will merrily f*ck-up rapid vaccine roll-out. A few thousand will happen before Christmas, and then it'll fizzle out.
That's not a political point - still less a Brexit one - it's just the public sector and civil service are really shit at rapid complex large-scale programmes.
They're good at policy papers and media angles - not delivery.
Nah it is being handled by the Civil Service, there is a designated provider in each site, usually a CCG. Leicester started today, held up a few days by the change to protocols caused by the anaphylaxis issue.
Objectively, how confident are you - honestly?
Pretty confident. The first 800 000 will be used up by next week. Let's hope the second dose arrives on time.
Organising vaccines is bread and butter work for CCGs. I think the AZN vaccine may take a bit longer, the data was pretty crap, mixing too many groups, and using meningococcal vaccine as the control was a bit odd too. Even vaccines for other conditions prime the immune system, so a poor control according to our virologist.
Wait, so 800,000 people are getting the first round, rather than 400,000 getting two rounds? A recipe for disaster.
Yep, that is the plan. Someone has faith in JIT logistics over Christmas 🤔
Right, so you do have concerns then?!
Not really. Inevitably a programme starts fairly slowly, and gains speed as people get more used to the process.
That's what we hope.
My contention is that I'm not sure the process will get off the ground but will instead bump along the bottom.
I hope I'm wrong.
I think the government and media have (fairly inevitably) over hyped the vaccine programme. It takes time to vaccinate 50 million people twice, and to do the second dose on schedule.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
Partly because Wales and Scotland have yet to secede from a Britain often dominated by England, which may eventually come with Brexit, so some of the less broad-minded aspects of the Scottish and Welsh nationalist movements are often glossed over as details of independence movements from the traditionally dominant power.
Well, we get lots of ‘Little Englander’ comments, but none about ‘Little Scotlanders’ (except from Malc, of course).
As though people who prize Englishness are insular and arrogant and useless, while everyone who prizes Scottishness - as a smaller, poorer, more remote country with no meaningful direct lines of communication to another country - is outward looking and bold.
Which is bollocks on a whole bunch of levels.
(And if you want *real* insularity, try the Pwllheli branch of Plaid Cymru.)
In an era when Labour in Wales is manned by nincompoops, it is a crying shame that the LDs are irrelevant, save for the fragrant Kirsty, and Plaid are so unfortunately, absolutely chaotic.
I have voted Plaid at Assembly Elections, only for them to disappoint by attempting to make RT First Minister in a rainbow collation with Hamilton. Now Labour may be piss-poor, but RT would have ratcheted the incompetence to sub-Drakeford levels.
That said if Plaid offered me an Independent Wales inside the EU, post Scottish Independence, I would chew Adam Price's arm off. English Unionist by birth, heading down the road of insular Welsh Nationalism.
Kingsley Amis claimed that Dylan Thomas had only 3 words for this.
The second and third words were Welsh Nationalism.
The ultimate in unreliable witness and unreliable locutor.
Kingsley Amis disliked Thomas who he thought was "an outstandingly loathsome man" (they had met while Amis was lecturer at Swansea University before publication of Lucky Jim).
Thomas said many contradictory things about Wales (and everything else and everyone else).
My view -- hard to say who was the more "outstandingly loathsome" between the two of them. But Thomas was by far the better writer.
On vaccines I'm starting to agree with @TSE that HMG will merrily f*ck-up rapid vaccine roll-out. A few thousand will happen before Christmas, and then it'll fizzle out.
That's not a political point - still less a Brexit one - it's just the public sector and civil service are really shit at rapid complex large-scale programmes.
They're good at policy papers and media angles - not delivery.
Nah it is being handled by the Civil Service, there is a designated provider in each site, usually a CCG. Leicester started today, held up a few days by the change to protocols caused by the anaphylaxis issue.
Objectively, how confident are you - honestly?
Pretty confident. The first 800 000 will be used up by next week. Let's hope the second dose arrives on time.
Organising vaccines is bread and butter work for CCGs. I think the AZN vaccine may take a bit longer, the data was pretty crap, mixing too many groups, and using meningococcal vaccine as the control was a bit odd too. Even vaccines for other conditions prime the immune system, so a poor control according to our virologist.
800,000 used up this week...
Interesting, because there was SOMEONE on this board who refused to believe we'd get to 100,000 a week by New Year.
Who could that be?
I did not refuse to believe. I simply questioned the optimism.
Well you are half right. At this rate it'd take over a year to vaccinate everyone, so a considerable expansion in capacity is needed.
It will ramp up if an easier to handle vaccine such as the AZN or Sputnik were licensed. Our prof of Virology surprised me by being quite complimentary about the Sputnik. Indeed the AZN/Sputnik combination trial is quite an interesting one, as different vectors in each.
Where are we with AZN? Is it now with MHRA? Or have the company/oxford not submitted data yet? There's been a paper in Lancet.
It’s with the mhra, and has been submitting rolling data. I had hoped it would be approved this side of Christmas, but foxy’s colleague may indicate that may not happen.
The Lancet paper was just as much of a mess as the press release in which they announced efficacy. I'm extremely disappointed with how they conducted this trial: not just the dosing, the pooling of slightly different endpoints, the dozens of arms, but also the slowness of recruitment in the first place. They started phase 3 first yet slipped further and further behind Pfizer and Moderna.
If MHRA need more time or more data, I could quite understand. Nonetheless, perhaps the messy data still meets the EUA standard for safety and efficacy. If so, I imagine they wouldn't rush into millions of doses until they were happy about the possible serious side effects that occurred in the trials. Better to start with few hundred thousand doses and keep an eye on the recipients through the yellow card system.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
But more wars than caused by religion?
Yup.
You can make a case that more wars have started because of religion, but in terms of casualties are much higher in the wars of nationalism.
And this is like arguing human beings would be alright if we were all just coldly logical without the distraction of our emotions.
Religions (what we believe) and national identity (who we think we are) are the fundamental tenants that allows a human society to define itself, cooperate in large groups and to function as an advanced society.
Yes, you could argue that we should remove all that but you'd also be removing what makes us human, and we'd cease to function. You can't remove the bad bits of nations and religions without removing the good bits too. It would lead to a societal lobotomy and anarchy.
Take Ireland, religious war or nationalism writ large as Ireland is invaded via a Papul Bull and mass immigration (or the great replacement) in the North sees a country torn asunder.
I see the IRA as Christian freedom fighters.
Wars of imperialism have surely killed more than either nationalism or religion.
I still use cash because there are some outlets that don't take cards. Otherwise, whats the point?
We don't use money in this country, we use currency. No need to create physical representation of a currency where the only value is the one assigned to it by the tax-raising powers of the state. So if it largely becomes digital so what - so many transactions are the digital movements of digital money anyway.
I merely take the stance that the less information we give to the state the better. While certainly it won't probably be misused now you are also putting your faith in the next 10 to 20 governments also not to misuse it.
While we have physical currency we can always fall back on it to provide privacy . When it is gone it's too late as we won't be getting it back. History is replete with people giving their state information and then wishing they hadn't. Example the ones that ticked japanese for ethnicity in the census before pearl harbour and then got interned
Unless you are Greek with tens of thousands stuffed under the mattress you aren't to get much privacy - and besides your phone tells the powers that be where you are and what you do and who you do it with.
Currency has no value than that assigned to it by the state. A £20 pound note is a piece of plastic. I do have some physical money - gold and silver - which has intrinsic value.
Things have value because people value them. That’s the same for gold and silver as for currency.
I still use cash because there are some outlets that don't take cards. Otherwise, whats the point?
We don't use money in this country, we use currency. No need to create physical representation of a currency where the only value is the one assigned to it by the tax-raising powers of the state. So if it largely becomes digital so what - so many transactions are the digital movements of digital money anyway.
I merely take the stance that the less information we give to the state the better. While certainly it won't probably be misused now you are also putting your faith in the next 10 to 20 governments also not to misuse it.
While we have physical currency we can always fall back on it to provide privacy . When it is gone it's too late as we won't be getting it back. History is replete with people giving their state information and then wishing they hadn't. Example the ones that ticked japanese for ethnicity in the census before pearl harbour and then got interned
Unless you are Greek with tens of thousands stuffed under the mattress you aren't to get much privacy - and besides your phone tells the powers that be where you are and what you do and who you do it with.
Currency has no value than that assigned to it by the state. A £20 pound note is a piece of plastic. I do have some physical money - gold and silver - which has intrinsic value.
Using cash the government has no idea what I spend it on. They can't look it up on a database. They could theoretically track me by cctv but thats man power intensive so its rubbish to say you get no privacy from it.
As to my phone they can track it all they like it hasn't moved more than 10 feet since I got it. I am one of those strange people that when out and about I feel no need to be instantly accessible to anyone that may want to ring me.
The value thing is irrelevant. A 20£ note is valued at what I can exchange it for whether physical or electronic. Never claimed it wasn't. Merely that when physical it doesn't become an entry in some database somewhere that I spent it on item y.
Why do you find it a strange concept that someone thinks the state doesn't need to know everything you do? Seems a commonsense attitude to me
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
Partly because Wales and Scotland have yet to secede from a Britain often dominated by England, which may eventually come with Brexit, so some of the less broad-minded aspects of the Scottish and Welsh nationalist movements are often glossed over as details of independence movements from the traditionally dominant power.
Well, we get lots of ‘Little Englander’ comments, but none about ‘Little Scotlanders’ (except from Malc, of course).
As though people who prize Englishness are insular and arrogant and useless, while everyone who prizes Scottishness - as a smaller, poorer, more remote country with no meaningful direct lines of communication to another country - is outward looking and bold.
Which is bollocks on a whole bunch of levels.
(And if you want *real* insularity, try the Pwllheli branch of Plaid Cymru.)
In an era when Labour in Wales is manned by nincompoops, it is a crying shame that the LDs are irrelevant, save for the fragrant Kirsty, and Plaid are so unfortunately, absolutely chaotic.
I have voted Plaid at Assembly Elections, only for them to disappoint by attempting to make RT First Minister in a rainbow collation with Hamilton. Now Labour may be piss-poor, but RT would have ratcheted the incompetence to sub-Drakeford levels.
That said if Plaid offered me an Independent Wales inside the EU, post Scottish Independence, I would chew Adam Price's arm off. English Unionist by birth, heading down the road of insular Welsh Nationalism.
Kingsley Amis claimed that Dylan Thomas had only 3 words for this.
The second and third words were Welsh Nationalism.
The ultimate in unreliable witness and unreliable narrator.
Kingsley Amis loathed Thomas who he thought was "an outstandingly loathsome man" (they had met while Amis was lecturer at Swansea University before publication of Lucky Jim).
Thomas said many contradictory things about Wales (and everything else and everyone else).
My view -- hard to say who was the more "outstandingly loathsome" between the two of them. But Thomas was by far the better writer.
Lucky Jim framed my twenties. I read it several times over.
A late relative of mine taught Martin Amis at a Swansea Junior School. She made the error of reading one of his 1980s novels, she was disgusted.
Take Ireland, religious war or nationalism writ large as Ireland is invaded via a Papul Bull and mass immigration (or the great replacement) in the North sees a country torn asunder.
I see the IRA as Christian freedom fighters.
Wars of imperialism have surely killed more than either nationalism or religion.
The Nazis would also have to be included in that list, however uncomfortable it might be for descendants of some of the others sharing the list with them. The French, Americans, Arabs, Japanese and Chinese would all go in too.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
But more wars than caused by religion?
Yup.
You can make a case that more wars have started because of religion, but in terms of casualties are much higher in the wars of nationalism.
Or you can also argue religion has been an excuse to start wars that were mainly nationalistic in character.
From your list, the Bar Kokhba revolt springs to mind.
Or the Spanish Reconquista.
I don't think that you can really seperate the two. While the modern concept of the Nation state date to the Treaty of Westphalia, and certainly nationalistc wars have been particularly bloody, national consciousness has often centered on religion.
And that's only because the concept of self-determination wasn't really a thing in geopolitics in many parts of the world before then.
Political units were formed by very powerful (often imperial or quasi-imperial) autocracies and with little transportation or communication over any meaningful distance identities were much more local. Most people were too distracted by the basics of life to take an interest or know any better.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
But more wars than caused by religion?
Yup.
You can make a case that more wars have started because of religion, but in terms of casualties are much higher in the wars of nationalism.
Or you can also argue religion has been an excuse to start wars that were mainly nationalistic in character.
From your list, the Bar Kokhba revolt springs to mind.
Or the Spanish Reconquista.
Or the threat of extreme Cornish Nationalism (exponents of the Greater East Cornwall Co-Prosperity Sphere encompassing everything from the Tamar to Shepard's Bush Roundabout).
That is, dangerous pseudo-celt wack-jobs, all too often hopped-up on ultra-fundamentalist Methodism.
Haha, a foundation for peace and justice, I knew one of my random theories would be correct. Not that peace and justice, in themselves, are not worthy aims, but I often feel with the creation of any new groups that it is a bit like manifestoes promising creation of new departments, where creating the body is a substitute for action.
Those guys are pathetically needy - I've just seen their description on twitter, and it's 'Page for Left Wingers and Socialists. Followed by Jeremy Corbyn'.
It's probably the first and only time I'll agree with them.
It would be very amusing to see a new party led by Jeremy Corbyn peel off the nuttier part of Labour's Left.
Unfortunately for Starmer that might lock him out of the next GE.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
Partly because Wales and Scotland have yet to secede from a Britain often dominated by England, which may eventually come with Brexit, so some of the less broad-minded aspects of the Scottish and Welsh nationalist movements are often glossed over as details of independence movements from the traditionally dominant power.
Well, we get lots of ‘Little Englander’ comments, but none about ‘Little Scotlanders’ (except from Malc, of course).
As though people who prize Englishness are insular and arrogant and useless, while everyone who prizes Scottishness - as a smaller, poorer, more remote country with no meaningful direct lines of communication to another country - is outward looking and bold.
Which is bollocks on a whole bunch of levels.
(And if you want *real* insularity, try the Pwllheli branch of Plaid Cymru.)
In an era when Labour in Wales is manned by nincompoops, it is a crying shame that the LDs are irrelevant, save for the fragrant Kirsty, and Plaid are so unfortunately, absolutely chaotic.
I have voted Plaid at Assembly Elections, only for them to disappoint by attempting to make RT First Minister in a rainbow collation with Hamilton. Now Labour may be piss-poor, but RT would have ratcheted the incompetence to sub-Drakeford levels.
That said if Plaid offered me an Independent Wales inside the EU, post Scottish Independence, I would chew Adam Price's arm off. English Unionist by birth, heading down the road of insular Welsh Nationalism.
Kingsley Amis claimed that Dylan Thomas had only 3 words for this.
The second and third words were Welsh Nationalism.
The ultimate in unreliable witness and unreliable locutor.
Kingsley Amis disliked Thomas who he thought was "an outstandingly loathsome man" (they had met while Amis was lecturer at Swansea University before publication of Lucky Jim).
Thomas said many contradictory things about Wales (and everything else and everyone else).
My view -- hard to say who was the more "outstandingly loathsome" between the two of them. But Thomas was by far the better writer.
Amis's Memoirs, were written with confidence, secure in his knowledge that the dead could not sue.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
But more wars than caused by religion?
Yup.
You can make a case that more wars have started because of religion, but in terms of casualties are much higher in the wars of nationalism.
Or you can also argue religion has been an excuse to start wars that were mainly nationalistic in character.
From your list, the Bar Kokhba revolt springs to mind.
Or the Spanish Reconquista.
I don't think that you can really seperate the two. While the modern concept of the Nation state date to the Treaty of Westphalia, and certainly nationalistc wars have been particularly bloody, national consciousness has often centered on religion.
And that's only because the concept of self-determination wasn't really a thing in geopolitics in many parts of the world before then.
Political units were formed by very powerful (often imperial or quasi-imperial) autocracies and with little transportation or communication over any meaningful distance identities were much more local. Most people were too distracted by the basics of life to take an interest or know any better.
So they kept their heads down.
Orwell made a good case that what we think of as nationalism has been transferred over the years from the clan, to the town, to the county, to the country, to the empire.... He further suggested the modern development was the supra-national nationalism.
By which he meant, for example, people who's "nationalistic" feelings supported Communism etc
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
Howzabout Imperialism, or is that a variation on nationalism?
A bit of crossover.
Then again not all empires are equal.
Take the British Empire, people say it was bad, but where did the largest volunteer army in history come from?
The British Indian Army.
Surely like the Roman Empire it was both good and bad in parts.
Indeed, but we will have to go through a 20-30 year phase now of teaching and talking about it like it was just as bad as the Nazis (if not worse) before we get to that sort of nuance.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
But more wars than caused by religion?
Yup.
You can make a case that more wars have started because of religion, but in terms of casualties are much higher in the wars of nationalism.
Or you can also argue religion has been an excuse to start wars that were mainly nationalistic in character.
From your list, the Bar Kokhba revolt springs to mind.
Or the Spanish Reconquista.
Or the threat of extreme Cornish Nationalism (exponents of the Greater East Cornwall Co-Prosperity Sphere encompassing everything from the Tamar to Shepard's Bush Roundabout).
That is, dangerous pseudo-celt wack-jobs, all too often hopped-up on ultra-fundamentalist Methodism.
we used to call them the oooh arrrgh A when I was at school. Someone I went to school with got arrested on terrorism charges to do with them
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
But more wars than caused by religion?
Yup.
You can make a case that more wars have started because of religion, but in terms of casualties are much higher in the wars of nationalism.
Or you can also argue religion has been an excuse to start wars that were mainly nationalistic in character.
From your list, the Bar Kokhba revolt springs to mind.
Or the Spanish Reconquista.
Or the threat of extreme Cornish Nationalism (exponents of the Greater East Cornwall Co-Prosperity Sphere encompassing everything from the Tamar to Shepard's Bush Roundabout).
That is, dangerous pseudo-celt wack-jobs, all too often hopped-up on ultra-fundamentalist Methodism.
If that post isn’t ironic, I want to know how you hacked his account, Sean.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
Howzabout Imperialism, or is that a variation on nationalism?
A bit of crossover.
Then again not all empires are equal.
Take the British Empire, people say it was bad, but where did the largest volunteer army in history come from?
The British Indian Army.
I love Max Hastings' account of the Burmese campaign in 1945, "the last great adventure of the Imperial Indian Army." I've not read it yet, but by all accounts, George Macdonald Fraser's book, Quartered Out Here, is outstanding.
Defeat into Victory, by Field Marshal Slim, is also a must read.
On vaccines I'm starting to agree with @TSE that HMG will merrily f*ck-up rapid vaccine roll-out. A few thousand will happen before Christmas, and then it'll fizzle out.
That's not a political point - still less a Brexit one - it's just the public sector and civil service are really shit at rapid complex large-scale programmes.
They're good at policy papers and media angles - not delivery.
Nah it is being handled by the Civil Service, there is a designated provider in each site, usually a CCG. Leicester started today, held up a few days by the change to protocols caused by the anaphylaxis issue.
Objectively, how confident are you - honestly?
Pretty confident. The first 800 000 will be used up by next week. Let's hope the second dose arrives on time.
Organising vaccines is bread and butter work for CCGs. I think the AZN vaccine may take a bit longer, the data was pretty crap, mixing too many groups, and using meningococcal vaccine as the control was a bit odd too. Even vaccines for other conditions prime the immune system, so a poor control according to our virologist.
Wait, so 800,000 people are getting the first round, rather than 400,000 getting two rounds? A recipe for disaster.
Yep, that is the plan. Someone has faith in JIT logistics over Christmas 🤔
Right, so you do have concerns then?!
Not really. Inevitably a programme starts fairly slowly, and gains speed as people get more used to the process.
That's what we hope.
My contention is that I'm not sure the process will get off the ground but will instead bump along the bottom.
I hope I'm wrong.
The testing programme suggests you're wrong. Britain has now done more testing than almost any other big country on earth. And it is efficient. I've seen it done. In and out in minutes. Results a few hours later
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
Howzabout Imperialism, or is that a variation on nationalism?
A bit of crossover.
Then again not all empires are equal.
Take the British Empire, people say it was bad, but where did the largest volunteer army in history come from?
The British Indian Army.
Surely not, Britain stood alone didn't it?
Well it did if you exclude all the Johnny Foreigners.
Was it 14% of the pilots in the Battle of Britain were Eastern European refugees?
Dunno about the numbers, 14% looks high and do Poles and Czechs consider themselves Eastern or Central Europeans? Their contribution is well-known and acknowledged in the Battle of Britain film among others. There were also a lot of Commonwealth pilots.
But what people tend to forget is there were also large numbers of soldiers from Poland and other countries vanquished by the Nazis who were in Britain ready to resist and repel any Nazi invasion had Operation Sealion gone ahead (along with most of the British Army, of course).
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
The issue is obviously complex but clearly it’s a “punching up, punching down” thing. I think the concept of “Civic Nationalism” an absolute oxymoron with no basis in reality or history whatsoever. However if Welsh and Scottish Nationalism are a reaction against English domination of the Union (and let’s face it, that’s what they are they are) then I have no problem with it. It’s punching up against a stronger/bigger party. What’s English Nationalism punching up against? The EU. And I’m not getting into that argument.
Well, bluntly they seem to me to be equivalent and the negativity is largely about anti-English xenophobia.
But again, that’s me as a Welshman who was born in England and lives there now.
All nationalism (despite what UnionDivvie and David Aaranovich might say) are rooted in “the other” ie “we are this, we are not that”. Take the other, the “that” out of the equation (the English in the case of Celtic Nationalism) and there is no reason for a nation or nationalism. It’s all xenophobic to a degree but if your “this” is being subsumed by the other’s “that” then there is justification for the xenophobia.
I’m a municipalist. Any jurisdictional unit bigger than a town (the “polis” in political) and it’s hinterland is suspect in my view. Counties at most. Classical Greece and Renaissance Italy had it right. Anything bigger than that needs destructive myths to create sufficient unity to keep it going.
Were the states of Classical Greece or Renaissance Italy noted for harmonious coexistence?
It depends on your definition of harmonious. They were very, very good at orchestrating their wars with each other - quite the symphony, really.
The Peloppennesian war was total war, by any measure.
It says something that the Greeks idea of why the Spartans lost was this - The guys who were total soldiers were beaten because eventually everyone else had to be total soldiers.
Didn't the Spartans win the Peloppennesian war? Not that any hegemony lasted long, as I understand it.
Athens and Sparta, rival cities of antiquity, have signed a 'symbolic' peace pact that officially ends the Peloponnesian War that ravaged Greece 2,500 years ago
Athens vs Sparta was half of season 8 of the Greek Classical wars. Which ran longer than a Brazilian soap opera.
They "won" in the sense of a Pyrrhic victory over Athens that lasted for about 10 minutes.
For those of you who doubt that nationalism has caused more wars that religion, I suggest you scroll through this list. It's not a complete list of wars but includes those that caused most damage.
On vaccines I'm starting to agree with @TSE that HMG will merrily f*ck-up rapid vaccine roll-out. A few thousand will happen before Christmas, and then it'll fizzle out.
That's not a political point - still less a Brexit one - it's just the public sector and civil service are really shit at rapid complex large-scale programmes.
They're good at policy papers and media angles - not delivery.
Nah it is being handled by the Civil Service, there is a designated provider in each site, usually a CCG. Leicester started today, held up a few days by the change to protocols caused by the anaphylaxis issue.
Objectively, how confident are you - honestly?
Pretty confident. The first 800 000 will be used up by next week. Let's hope the second dose arrives on time.
Organising vaccines is bread and butter work for CCGs. I think the AZN vaccine may take a bit longer, the data was pretty crap, mixing too many groups, and using meningococcal vaccine as the control was a bit odd too. Even vaccines for other conditions prime the immune system, so a poor control according to our virologist.
Wait, so 800,000 people are getting the first round, rather than 400,000 getting two rounds? A recipe for disaster.
Yep, that is the plan. Someone has faith in JIT logistics over Christmas 🤔
Right, so you do have concerns then?!
Not really. Inevitably a programme starts fairly slowly, and gains speed as people get more used to the process.
That's what we hope.
My contention is that I'm not sure the process will get off the ground but will instead bump along the bottom.
I hope I'm wrong.
The testing programme suggests you're wrong. Britain has now done more testing than almost any other big country on earth. And it is efficient. I've seen it done. In and out in minutes. Results a few hours later
That's not my experience. And track and trace has been a disaster.
For those of you who doubt that nationalism has caused more wars that religion, I suggest you scroll through this list. It's not a complete list of wars but includes those that caused most damage.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
Howzabout Imperialism, or is that a variation on nationalism?
A bit of crossover.
Then again not all empires are equal.
Take the British Empire, people say it was bad, but where did the largest volunteer army in history come from?
The British Indian Army.
Surely not, Britain stood alone didn't it?
Well it did if you exclude all the Johnny Foreigners.
Was it 14% of the pilots in the Battle of Britain were Eastern European refugees?
Dunno about the numbers, 14% looks high and do Poles and Czechs consider themselves Eastern or Central Europeans? Their contribution is well-known and acknowledged in the Battle of Britain film among others. There were also a lot of Commonwealth pilots.
But what people tend to forget is there were also large numbers of soldiers from Poland and other countries vanquished by the Nazis who were in Britain ready to resist and repel any Nazi invasion had Operation Sealion gone ahead (along with most of the British Army, of course).
I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
Howzabout Imperialism, or is that a variation on nationalism?
A bit of crossover.
Then again not all empires are equal.
Take the British Empire, people say it was bad, but where did the largest volunteer army in history come from?
The British Indian Army.
Surely not, Britain stood alone didn't it?
Well it did if you exclude all the Johnny Foreigners.
Was it 14% of the pilots in the Battle of Britain were Eastern European refugees?
Dunno about the numbers, 14% looks high and do Poles and Czechs consider themselves Eastern or Central Europeans? Their contribution is well-known and acknowledged in the Battle of Britain film among others. There were also a lot of Commonwealth pilots.
But what people tend to forget is there were also large numbers of soldiers from Poland and other countries vanquished by the Nazis who were in Britain ready to resist and repel any Nazi invasion had Operation Sealion gone ahead (along with most of the British Army, of course).
Many of the Poles were garrisoned in SE and E Scotland. Still very much remembered, not forgotten.
On vaccines I'm starting to agree with @TSE that HMG will merrily f*ck-up rapid vaccine roll-out. A few thousand will happen before Christmas, and then it'll fizzle out.
That's not a political point - still less a Brexit one - it's just the public sector and civil service are really shit at rapid complex large-scale programmes.
They're good at policy papers and media angles - not delivery.
Nah it is being handled by the Civil Service, there is a designated provider in each site, usually a CCG. Leicester started today, held up a few days by the change to protocols caused by the anaphylaxis issue.
Objectively, how confident are you - honestly?
Pretty confident. The first 800 000 will be used up by next week. Let's hope the second dose arrives on time.
Organising vaccines is bread and butter work for CCGs. I think the AZN vaccine may take a bit longer, the data was pretty crap, mixing too many groups, and using meningococcal vaccine as the control was a bit odd too. Even vaccines for other conditions prime the immune system, so a poor control according to our virologist.
Wait, so 800,000 people are getting the first round, rather than 400,000 getting two rounds? A recipe for disaster.
Yep, that is the plan. Someone has faith in JIT logistics over Christmas 🤔
Right, so you do have concerns then?!
Not really. Inevitably a programme starts fairly slowly, and gains speed as people get more used to the process.
That's what we hope.
My contention is that I'm not sure the process will get off the ground but will instead bump along the bottom.
I hope I'm wrong.
The testing programme suggests you're wrong. Britain has now done more testing than almost any other big country on earth. And it is efficient. I've seen it done. In and out in minutes. Results a few hours later
That's not my experience. And track and trace has been a disaster.
But, yes, I hope I'm wrong.
Track and trace has been a disaster everywhere outside bits of Asia and Oz/NZ
And in terms of tests the UK is way ahead of most countries, in total numbers (inc Germany) and behind only Russia, India, China and the USA.
In terms of tests per M we are the best in the world (excluding small, minor nations)
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
Howzabout Imperialism, or is that a variation on nationalism?
A bit of crossover.
Then again not all empires are equal.
Take the British Empire, people say it was bad, but where did the largest volunteer army in history come from?
The British Indian Army.
Surely not, Britain stood alone didn't it?
Well it did if you exclude all the Johnny Foreigners.
Was it 14% of the pilots in the Battle of Britain were Eastern European refugees?
Dunno about the numbers, 14% looks high and do Poles and Czechs consider themselves Eastern or Central Europeans? Their contribution is well-known and acknowledged in the Battle of Britain film among others. There were also a lot of Commonwealth pilots.
But what people tend to forget is there were also large numbers of soldiers from Poland and other countries vanquished by the Nazis who were in Britain ready to resist and repel any Nazi invasion had Operation Sealion gone ahead (along with most of the British Army, of course).
PS I remember a Canadian coming to visit my grandmother and mother ca. 1970. Turned out to be a Pole who had been conscripted into the Wehrmacht (Silesian?), then captured and joined the Polish Army in the west. He'd been billeted in our house during the war.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
Howzabout Imperialism, or is that a variation on nationalism?
A bit of crossover.
Then again not all empires are equal.
Take the British Empire, people say it was bad, but where did the largest volunteer army in history come from?
The British Indian Army.
Surely not, Britain stood alone didn't it?
Well it did if you exclude all the Johnny Foreigners.
Was it 14% of the pilots in the Battle of Britain were Eastern European refugees?
Dunno about the numbers, 14% looks high and do Poles and Czechs consider themselves Eastern or Central Europeans? Their contribution is well-known and acknowledged in the Battle of Britain film among others. There were also a lot of Commonwealth pilots.
But what people tend to forget is there were also large numbers of soldiers from Poland and other countries vanquished by the Nazis who were in Britain ready to resist and repel any Nazi invasion had Operation Sealion gone ahead (along with most of the British Army, of course).
I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.
That's right, but an earlier contingent came out of France in 1940.
Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?
They are all bad
Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
Nationalism has existed for centuries.
I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.
Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.
Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.
There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.
I could cite many more.
Howzabout Imperialism, or is that a variation on nationalism?
A bit of crossover.
Then again not all empires are equal.
Take the British Empire, people say it was bad, but where did the largest volunteer army in history come from?
The British Indian Army.
Surely not, Britain stood alone didn't it?
Well it did if you exclude all the Johnny Foreigners.
Was it 14% of the pilots in the Battle of Britain were Eastern European refugees?
Dunno about the numbers, 14% looks high and do Poles and Czechs consider themselves Eastern or Central Europeans? Their contribution is well-known and acknowledged in the Battle of Britain film among others. There were also a lot of Commonwealth pilots.
But what people tend to forget is there were also large numbers of soldiers from Poland and other countries vanquished by the Nazis who were in Britain ready to resist and repel any Nazi invasion had Operation Sealion gone ahead (along with most of the British Army, of course).
Sounds as though theCzechs and Poles between them were about 8%, so lower than I thought, but at the same time they were more active so they did more fighting than most. The Poles, at about 5% of pilots, were responsible for 15% of confirmed downings.
On vaccines I'm starting to agree with @TSE that HMG will merrily f*ck-up rapid vaccine roll-out. A few thousand will happen before Christmas, and then it'll fizzle out.
That's not a political point - still less a Brexit one - it's just the public sector and civil service are really shit at rapid complex large-scale programmes.
They're good at policy papers and media angles - not delivery.
Nah it is being handled by the Civil Service, there is a designated provider in each site, usually a CCG. Leicester started today, held up a few days by the change to protocols caused by the anaphylaxis issue.
Objectively, how confident are you - honestly?
Pretty confident. The first 800 000 will be used up by next week. Let's hope the second dose arrives on time.
Organising vaccines is bread and butter work for CCGs. I think the AZN vaccine may take a bit longer, the data was pretty crap, mixing too many groups, and using meningococcal vaccine as the control was a bit odd too. Even vaccines for other conditions prime the immune system, so a poor control according to our virologist.
Wait, so 800,000 people are getting the first round, rather than 400,000 getting two rounds? A recipe for disaster.
Yep, that is the plan. Someone has faith in JIT logistics over Christmas 🤔
Right, so you do have concerns then?!
Not really. Inevitably a programme starts fairly slowly, and gains speed as people get more used to the process.
That's what we hope.
My contention is that I'm not sure the process will get off the ground but will instead bump along the bottom.
I hope I'm wrong.
The testing programme suggests you're wrong. Britain has now done more testing than almost any other big country on earth. And it is efficient. I've seen it done. In and out in minutes. Results a few hours later
That's not my experience. And track and trace has been a disaster.
But, yes, I hope I'm wrong.
No, Testing is easy to get now and the results are back in less than a day.
Test and Trace is failing, because it only does the rather low value forward tracing rather than the much more effective backward tracing. (And because it was handed out to the chumocracy!).
Backward tracing is more useful because half or more infections are transmitted by asymptomatic individuals, and Covid has a high k value, meaning that a few individuals are responsible for most new cases. The average covid patient doesn't infect anyone else.
I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.
In London, there was an active Polish community in the west of the capital. The Czechoslovaks settled in NW London (I once ate at the Czech & Slovak Club in West End Lane, quite an experience).
As someone else said, there were some soldiers from the various occupied countries who managed to effect an escape to Britain and would doubtless have tried to stop the invading Germans had they landed. There were various Governments-in-exile as well as King Haakon of Norway, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and other foreign royalty.
I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.
In London, there was an active Polish community in the west of the capital. The Czechoslovaks settled in NW London (I once ate at the Czech & Slovak Club in West End Lane, quite an experience).
As someone else said, there were some soldiers from the various occupied countries who managed to effect an escape to Britain and would doubtless have tried to stop the invading Germans had they landed. There were various Governments-in-exile as well as King Haakon of Norway, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and other foreign royalty.
Czech & Slovak Club - ah yes. The food.
Do you reckon the story about the Soviet diplomat is true?
The Polish centre in Hammersmith is large, bustling and the cafe does magnificent cakes....
I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.
In London, there was an active Polish community in the west of the capital. The Czechoslovaks settled in NW London (I once ate at the Czech & Slovak Club in West End Lane, quite an experience).
As someone else said, there were some soldiers from the various occupied countries who managed to effect an escape to Britain and would doubtless have tried to stop the invading Germans had they landed. There were various Governments-in-exile as well as King Haakon of Norway, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and other foreign royalty.
The biggest problem, if the Germans had managed to land, would have been the near total lack of heavy equipment for defending troops.
In practice though a German invasion would have been untenable. I don't think towed Rhine barges would have been seaworthy enough to cross the channel.
Comments
Then again not all empires are equal.
Take the British Empire, people say it was bad, but where did the largest volunteer army in history come from?
The British Indian Army.
If you really want to worry about something, have a dive into CIFAS markers and the consequences of that.
A bit like Jews for Jesus.
We don't use money in this country, we use currency. No need to create physical representation of a currency where the only value is the one assigned to it by the tax-raising powers of the state. So if it largely becomes digital so what - so many transactions are the digital movements of digital money anyway.
https://twitter.com/AngstromHoot/status/1337674447818543107?s=20
*Some say that 40 million dead was a heavy price to pay for the only funny joke that Kaiser Wilhelm II ever told.
That would put the top hat on 2020.
Mongols, Mughals, Soviets, Rome, Ottomans, Britain!
While we have physical currency we can always fall back on it to provide privacy . When it is gone it's too late as we won't be getting it back. History is replete with people giving their state information and then wishing they hadn't. Example the ones that ticked japanese for ethnicity in the census before pearl harbour and then got interned
The second and third words were Welsh Nationalism.
Works just as well with daal too.
Currency has no value than that assigned to it by the state. A £20 pound note is a piece of plastic. I do have some physical money - gold and silver - which has intrinsic value.
My contention is that I'm not sure the process will get off the ground but will instead bump along the bottom.
I hope I'm wrong.
Then again, maybe we're all wrong
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1996/03/12/Athens-Sparta-sign-peace-pact/9963826606800/
Athens and Sparta, rival cities of antiquity, have signed a 'symbolic' peace pact that officially ends the Peloponnesian War that ravaged Greece 2,500 years ago
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9046441/Coronavirus-UK-Protesters-hit-streets-London-Bristol-Edinburgh-Brighton.html
Kingsley Amis disliked Thomas who he thought was "an outstandingly loathsome man" (they had met while Amis was lecturer at Swansea University before publication of Lucky Jim).
Thomas said many contradictory things about Wales (and everything else and everyone else).
My view -- hard to say who was the more "outstandingly loathsome" between the two of them. But Thomas was by far the better writer.
If MHRA need more time or more data, I could quite understand. Nonetheless, perhaps the messy data still meets the EUA standard for safety and efficacy. If so, I imagine they wouldn't rush into millions of doses until they were happy about the possible serious side effects that occurred in the trials. Better to start with few hundred thousand doses and keep an eye on the recipients through the yellow card system.
--AS
Religions (what we believe) and national identity (who we think we are) are the fundamental tenants that allows a human society to define itself, cooperate in large groups and to function as an advanced society.
Yes, you could argue that we should remove all that but you'd also be removing what makes us human, and we'd cease to function. You can't remove the bad bits of nations and religions without removing the good bits too. It would lead to a societal lobotomy and anarchy.
It's even less realistic than communism.
https://twitter.com/TommyCorbyn/status/1337851333953589250
That’s the same for gold and silver as for currency.
As to my phone they can track it all they like it hasn't moved more than 10 feet since I got it. I am one of those strange people that when out and about I feel no need to be instantly accessible to anyone that may want to ring me.
The value thing is irrelevant. A 20£ note is valued at what I can exchange it for whether physical or electronic. Never claimed it wasn't. Merely that when physical it doesn't become an entry in some database somewhere that I spent it on item y.
Why do you find it a strange concept that someone thinks the state doesn't need to know everything you do? Seems a commonsense attitude to me
A late relative of mine taught Martin Amis at a Swansea Junior School. She made the error of reading one of his 1980s novels, she was disgusted.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1337854119038623747
Political units were formed by very powerful (often imperial or quasi-imperial) autocracies and with little transportation or communication over any meaningful distance identities were much more local. Most people were too distracted by the basics of life to take an interest or know any better.
So they kept their heads down.
That is, dangerous pseudo-celt wack-jobs, all too often hopped-up on ultra-fundamentalist Methodism.
It would be very amusing to see a new party led by Jeremy Corbyn peel off the nuttier part of Labour's Left.
Unfortunately for Starmer that might lock him out of the next GE.
Amis's Memoirs, were written with confidence, secure in his knowledge that the dead could not sue.
By which he meant, for example, people who's "nationalistic" feelings supported Communism etc
It's just where we're at.
But what people tend to forget is there were also large numbers of soldiers from Poland and other countries vanquished by the Nazis who were in Britain ready to resist and repel any Nazi invasion had Operation Sealion gone ahead (along with most of the British Army, of course).
They "won" in the sense of a Pyrrhic victory over Athens that lasted for about 10 minutes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll
Surprisingly few were caused by religion.
Most have been caused by territorial disputes, claims and conquests which I bracket firmly under nationalism.
(Civil wars, coups and naked power grabs account for quite a few too.)
But, yes, I hope I'm wrong.
We will always need identities and things to believe in, and there will always be some willing to kill or die for it.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Polish_Army_in_Britain,_1940-1947_H5493.jpg
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-34748795
http://www.mapascotland.org/
And in terms of tests the UK is way ahead of most countries, in total numbers (inc Germany) and behind only Russia, India, China and the USA.
In terms of tests per M we are the best in the world (excluding small, minor nations)
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
It's not perfect but we need to stop beating ourselves up
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/blog/poles-and-czechoslovaks-in-the-battle-of-britain/
Test and Trace is failing, because it only does the rather low value forward tracing rather than the much more effective backward tracing. (And because it was handed out to the chumocracy!).
Backward tracing is more useful because half or more infections are transmitted by asymptomatic individuals, and Covid has a high k value, meaning that a few individuals are responsible for most new cases. The average covid patient doesn't infect anyone else.
As someone else said, there were some soldiers from the various occupied countries who managed to effect an escape to Britain and would doubtless have tried to stop the invading Germans had they landed. There were various Governments-in-exile as well as King Haakon of Norway, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and other foreign royalty.
Do you reckon the story about the Soviet diplomat is true?
The Polish centre in Hammersmith is large, bustling and the cafe does magnificent cakes....
In practice though a German invasion would have been untenable. I don't think towed Rhine barges would have been seaworthy enough to cross the channel.