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  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    edited May 2020
    deleted
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    Chris said:

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    How many MPs need to break cover before Downing Street gives up? 15? 20? 30?

    at what point does the 1922 start counting letters?
    If Cummings goes, Johnson goes. So I don;t see them giving up.
    I think that is wishful thinking.

    The only way Boris will go is if he has to stand down due to health

    And I am not at all happy with Boris going awol
    With one big kill to their name the press will scent another. If Cummings goes the next question is "what did Boris know?"

    Cummings either needs to be fired by Boris NOW or Boris, with an 80 seat majority behind him keeps his man. The dissenters will fall back into line on Boris' command.
    Trust me, by close of play on Friday the lock down will be over in Cummings hasn't gone.

    This is the only news story and screams one rule for us, another for everyone else.
    The lockdown is already over.

    What we still have is a partial shutdown.
    Post Cummings, we now have Liberty Hall.

    Anyone can break the rules now, using common sense and looking after their family interests.

    That is the significance. BoZo is just a cork in a storm, and not a visible one at that. The government has no authority anymore.
    This is really one of the most childish takes on this whole story. Anyone so miffed about Cummings' behaviour that they deliberately expose themselves to a potentially-fatal disease out of spite deserves a Darwin Award.
    I've had coronavirus. So I'm almost certainly immune.
    You reckon?
    Insofar as we know anything about this virus, yes. Scientific consensus is that there is immunity, though no one knows how long it lasts.

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-scientists-conclude-people-cannot-be-infected-twice-11981721
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Sandpit said:

    "My inbox is rammed with very angry constituents"

    As I said last night, the anger out in Middle England is off the scale.

    Can't wait for some polling.
    Is that anger at Cummings, or anger at lockdown though? I suspect its a big slice of the latter.
    Actually lockdown is very popular and it is not hard to see why.

    Coming out of lockdown is where all the dangers are.
    Paying everyone close to their full salary not to work is always going to be popular.

    Withdrawing that support, with a couple of million becoming unemployed in the process, is going to be a whole lot of trouble no matter who is in charge. Ditto with the eventual spending cuts needed to pay for all the extra borrowing.
    UC will be a lot cheaper than furlough though, clock is ticking.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    How many views has that Andrew Neil empty-chair video had by now? I remember being assured by someone that it would have massive electoral cut-through.

    Must be tens of millions by now... :wink:
    Different battle, different war. This is killing you in the Shires.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    I think more likely that he Labour leader simply cannot guarantee that all Labour MPs and staff have followed the rules and doesn’t have the details on Dummings anyway. You can be sure that people are checking up on Labour folk right now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Charles said:

    DougSeal said:

    Charles said:

    DougSeal said:

    Charles said:

    DougSeal said:

    Charles said:

    DougSeal said:

    This is another reason why the Cummings story matters -


    Which is why Conditional Discharges exist
    A conditional discharge still gives you a criminal record. And he had pretty watertight excuse for not being in his home. Unlike some.
    Yes. It’s clearly something that was overlooked in drafting and should be fixed. But as it stands he broke the law.
    Well, no, he has a defence, regulation 6(4), specifically refers to homeless people, as clear as day in the drafting, which is why the decision to prosecute is all the more sinister -

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/made

    I somehow doubt this chap can afford a solicitor - and don’t get me started on Legal Aid.
    How can the CPS prosecute when there is a clear defence? Why didn’t the judge throw it out?

    Setting aside the possibility that they are all idiots I assume there is more to the story than we know
    No - they are idiots

    https://twitter.com/lizziedearden/status/1261265439520370688
    The CPS is useless. I put it down to incredibly weak leadership for the last 10-15 years
    That and underfunding. Current rates for a first year trainee solicitor with the CPS are about £18.5k pa - just under the average graduate pay. The Law Society recommends a £22k minimum in London and a £19k minimum outside. Given you have a year or two of law school debts to pay on top of University loans they are not able to attract the brightest and best, or even above average, to prosecute cases and it’s that prep, rather than any flashy displays by the Bar in court, where cases are won and lost. Also means that they’ll prosecute any old shite.
    Certainly top graduates from law school will head for city law firms with starting salaries £50k plus or if they are super bright the commercial bar where pupils can even earn six figures.

    However criminal law is generally underpaid and not just at the CPS, the average defence solicitor earns little more than the average salary and even criminal barristers earn only about £15 to £20 k as pupils
    Erm...you do know what I do for a living, don’t you?
    Well you know my post was correct then
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    DougSeal said:

    Please don’t resign, please don’t resign!
    No, he's just popped in to drop a folder off, before driving up to Durham, as there's a couple of ruined castles he hasn't visited yet.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    Scott_xP said:
    Boris to be sacked?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Jonathan said:

    I think more likely that he Labour leader simply cannot guarantee that all Labour MPs and staff have followed the rules and doesn’t have the details on Dummings anyway. You can be sure that people are checking up on Labour folk right now.
    Oh, if any Labour people have broken the rules ... :smile:
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    kinabalu said:

    No surprise Johnson’s ratings have plummeted from the high of Easter Sunday when the news broke that he had beaten the killer bug and left hospital. At that moment he was a hero to all but the most bitterly partisan of lefty remoaners. He had become “our PM” in the genuine sense of the term. There was no other way but down from such a peak.

    Except it strikes me there was. There was one way to prevent the slide into disrepute and Johnson missed a trick in not embracing it. Instead of winning his battle against the virus he could have fought like a lion for weeks before succumbing to it and dying. The popularity accruing from this course of action, I suggest, would have been even greater than we saw on the joyous day of his release. More crucially, it would have lasted. Grown even.

    They say politics is showbiz for ugly people and there is truth in this. Hendrix, Morrison, Joplin, Jones, Moon, Cobain – what do these have in common? The answer is 27. All checked out at that age and as a result they are frozen in our minds eye as potent icons at the top of their game. We see them forever thus, pure and untainted, prevented from shambling in later years around the pyramid stage in the tea-time Legends slot by the fact of being six feet under.

    As 27 is to musicians, so 55 is to a politician. The age at which you’ve made it, much done, but plenty lying ahead. It’s the sweet spot and to be cut down at this juncture delivers maximum poignancy and romantic appeal. If the RIP politician is ‘big’ a legend will be born. And Johnson is big. Very. So imagine the dimensions he’d assume if he were never to grow old on us, if he were to be pickled and stored for the nation just as he is now, our 55 year old boyish bouncy blond bomber. Always and forever our “Boris”. Ratings? They’d need a new scale. And Starmer or no Starmer, the next election in the bag.

    They could have buried him arse up and he could have been useful for once as a bikestand.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited May 2020
    JSpring said:

    One of the economic dangers is that people won't be willing to visit hospitality venues even post-lockdown, due to a widespread belief that the virus is worse than it actually is. This is why the actions of Cummings, Professor Ferguson etc may actually be helpful, as they may contribute to a reduction in the paranoia amongst the masses, and therefore, perhaps, make the longer term economic damage less severe.

    Perhaps we should give Cummings and Ferguson knighthoods or ennoblement?

    Lord Dominic of Covid has certain ring to it... but "Sauron" may be more apt :D:D
  • It is quite remarkable to watch the fall from hero to this in such a short space of time, for Johnson.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Charles said:

    DougSeal said:

    Charles said:

    DougSeal said:

    Charles said:

    DougSeal said:

    Charles said:

    DougSeal said:

    This is another reason why the Cummings story matters -


    Which is why Conditional Discharges exist
    A conditional discharge still gives you a criminal record. And he had pretty watertight excuse for not being in his home. Unlike some.
    Yes. It’s clearly something that was overlooked in drafting and should be fixed. But as it stands he broke the law.
    Well, no, he has a defence, regulation 6(4), specifically refers to homeless people, as clear as day in the drafting, which is why the decision to prosecute is all the more sinister -

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/made

    I somehow doubt this chap can afford a solicitor - and don’t get me started on Legal Aid.
    How can the CPS prosecute when there is a clear defence? Why didn’t the judge throw it out?

    Setting aside the possibility that they are all idiots I assume there is more to the story than we know
    No - they are idiots

    https://twitter.com/lizziedearden/status/1261265439520370688
    The CPS is useless. I put it down to incredibly weak leadership for the last 10-15 years
    That and underfunding. Current rates for a first year trainee solicitor with the CPS are about £18.5k pa - just under the average graduate pay. The Law Society recommends a £22k minimum in London and a £19k minimum outside. Given you have a year or two of law school debts to pay on top of University loans they are not able to attract the brightest and best, or even above average, to prosecute cases and it’s that prep, rather than any flashy displays by the Bar in court, where cases are won and lost. Also means that they’ll prosecute any old shite.
    Certainly top graduates from law school will head for city law firms with starting salaries £50k plus or if they are super bright the commercial bar where pupils can even earn six figures.

    However criminal law is generally underpaid and not just at the CPS, the average defence solicitor earns little more than the average salary and even criminal barristers earn only about £15 to £20 k as pupils
    Erm...you do know what I do for a living, don’t you?
    Well you know my post was correct then
    Well, perhaps, but that is not the point I was getting at.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    Boris and Starmer are closely matched in approval overall though, 45% for Boris and 47% for Starmer and more Tory voters, 33% still disapprove of Starmer than the 26% who approve.

    The Tories also still have a clear poll lead on 47%. While Starmer has increased the Labour voteshare from 32% at the last general election to 35% there are clearly a lot of Tory voters who will still not vote Labour even if they are less afraid of Starmer than Corbyn (though I suppose they might vote LD if they are Remainers and we go to WTO terms Brexit)
    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1264296723310141440?s=20

    I think that's a fair analysis of the position as it stood last week. I doubt if any of us can say with confidence where it will be in 6 months, let alone in 3 years.

    I'm genuinely sorry for Boris's dilemma at a personal level. He is probably feeling very under par in an objectively very difficult situation, with his closest aide under extreme pressure. He's always wanted to be PM so won't give it up readily. His absence from the airwaves is increasingly marked, but when he goes on and gives a substandard performance his rating goes down. He is probably thinking "Thank God for the recess" and just hoping he gets better and the pressure eases.

    But it does give the impression of drift. Supposedly we are having a big step towards lockdown easing in a week. The news should be full of the Government's preparations for it. Instead, they are preoccupied with defending Cummings.
    Yes the Government has lost its mojo a bit but the evidence seems to be if Starmer gets in he will be more Wilson 1964 or 1974, with most Tory switchers going LD rather than Labour, than Blair 1997 where Tory switchers felt safe enough to vote for New Labour
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Jonathan said:

    I think more likely that he Labour leader simply cannot guarantee that all Labour MPs and staff have followed the rules and doesn’t have the details on Dummings anyway. You can be sure that people are checking up on Labour folk right now.
    Oh, if any Labour people have broken the rules ... :smile:
    As you do not tire of telling us, Labour people do not run the country, and the hypocrisy charges are harder to stick. Anyway, Cummings is not even a member of the Conservative Party so far as I am aware.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    Jonathan said:

    I think more likely that he Labour leader simply cannot guarantee that all Labour MPs and staff have followed the rules and doesn’t have the details on Dummings anyway. You can be sure that people are checking up on Labour folk right now.
    It would be astonishing if every MP had behaved themselves.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Jonathan said:

    I think more likely that he Labour leader simply cannot guarantee that all Labour MPs and staff have followed the rules and doesn’t have the details on Dummings anyway. You can be sure that people are checking up on Labour folk right now.
    It would be astonishing if every MP had behaved themselves.
    Even so, it is impressive discipline that would not have been seen from the last leadership team.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Saying nothing? Now that's leadership!

    Joe Pike was of course the 'journalist' whose phone Boris pocketed when he shoved it in his face, a massive scandal that led to ... absolutely nothing :smile:
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    dixiedean said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The biggest news today should be this:

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1264459136441430016?s=21

    This government is responsible for thousands of unnecessary deaths.

    The second most important story is Sunak’s decision to end furlough for businesses legally unable to open thus leading to thousands of bankrupt businesses.
    Has he actually said that? The scheme is scheduled to change in August, and nearly all business are scheduled to be allowed to reopen in July?
    We don't know that. The plan/hope/vague aspiration is for them to reopen then.
    Plenty won't. Regardless of the "legality" or otherwise. Plenty more won't be able to function at a profitable capacity.
    Sure, but the quote was clearly misleading from one of the most consistently accurate posters on here.

    1. He is not ending furlough, the terms are planned to change in August.
    2. Most businesses are expected to be legally allowed to be open by then.
    3. The details have not been released so we have no idea if there will be exemptions for the businesses that are mandated to be closed.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris and Starmer are closely matched in approval overall though, 45% for Boris and 47% for Starmer and more Tory voters, 33% still disapprove of Starmer than the 26% who approve.

    The Tories also still have a clear poll lead on 47%. While Starmer has increased the Labour voteshare from 32% at the last general election to 35% there are clearly a lot of Tory voters who will still not vote Labour even if they are less afraid of Starmer than Corbyn (though I suppose they might vote LD if they are Remainers and we go to WTO terms Brexit)
    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1264296723310141440?s=20

    I think that's a fair analysis of the position as it stood last week. I doubt if any of us can say with confidence where it will be in 6 months, let alone in 3 years.

    I'm genuinely sorry for Boris's dilemma at a personal level. He is probably feeling very under par in an objectively very difficult situation, with his closest aide under extreme pressure. He's always wanted to be PM so won't give it up readily. His absence from the airwaves is increasingly marked, but when he goes on and gives a substandard performance his rating goes down. He is probably thinking "Thank God for the recess" and just hoping he gets better and the pressure eases.

    But it does give the impression of drift. Supposedly we are having a big step towards lockdown easing in a week. The news should be full of the Government's preparations for it. Instead, they are preoccupied with defending Cummings.
    Yes the Government has lost its mojo a bit but the evidence seems to be if Starmer gets in he will be more Wilson 1964 or 1974, with most Tory switchers going LD rather than Labour, than Blair 1997 where Tory switchers felt safe enough to vote for New Labour
    Lib Dems returning to their high point of 60 seats would do big damage to the Tory majority.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    DougSeal said:

    Jonathan said:

    I think more likely that he Labour leader simply cannot guarantee that all Labour MPs and staff have followed the rules and doesn’t have the details on Dummings anyway. You can be sure that people are checking up on Labour folk right now.
    Oh, if any Labour people have broken the rules ... :smile:
    As you do not tire of telling us, Labour people do not run the country, and the hypocrisy charges are harder to stick. Anyway, Cummings is not even a member of the Conservative Party so far as I am aware.
    Looks like you suspect they have. If Cummings goes, it will be open season on every last one of them, and that will be a joy to watch.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Whats Boris said?

    #1rule4them
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805

    deleted

    deleted

    I think you are missing the point. If you think you have the virus you aren't suppose to go out and touch things like petrol pumps etc. So unless he managed the whole trip with filling up, going for a pee, buying food etc he will have done just that. He was at very high risk of spreading the virus.

    And of course the issue with going out even if you don't intend to stop is you may not have any choice eg what if you breakdown which is why the Govt advised against driving to your place of exercise for instance, even if you didn't think you had the virus.

    To me the big issue here and what makes it worse than the others is that he was aware there was a high probability he and his wife had it and was willing to spread it to others.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Saying nothing? Now that's leadership!

    Joe Pike was of course the 'journalist' whose phone Boris pocketed when he shoved it in his face, a massive scandal that led to ... absolutely nothing :smile:
    Not sure of Starmer yet, but keeping his powder dry and avoiding too many hostages to fortune seems incredibly sensible. Just let Tory MPs fight like rats in a sack is the way to go
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Jonathan said:

    I think more likely that he Labour leader simply cannot guarantee that all Labour MPs and staff have followed the rules and doesn’t have the details on Dummings anyway. You can be sure that people are checking up on Labour folk right now.
    It would be astonishing if every MP had
    behaved themselves.
    Well, we know Kinnock Jnr didn’t, but the bigger risk is if someone in the shadow cabinet had been naughty. Of course, I think even us on PB would be hard pressed to recognise most of the shadow cabinet!
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Chris said:

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    How many MPs need to break cover before Downing Street gives up? 15? 20? 30?

    at what point does the 1922 start counting letters?
    If Cummings goes, Johnson goes. So I don;t see them giving up.
    I think that is wishful thinking.

    The only way Boris will go is if he has to stand down due to health

    And I am not at all happy with Boris going awol
    With one big kill to their name the press will scent another. If Cummings goes the next question is "what did Boris know?"

    Cummings either needs to be fired by Boris NOW or Boris, with an 80 seat majority behind him keeps his man. The dissenters will fall back into line on Boris' command.
    Trust me, by close of play on Friday the lock down will be over in Cummings hasn't gone.

    This is the only news story and screams one rule for us, another for everyone else.
    The lockdown is already over.

    What we still have is a partial shutdown.
    Post Cummings, we now have Liberty Hall.

    Anyone can break the rules now, using common sense and looking after their family interests.

    That is the significance. BoZo is just a cork in a storm, and not a visible one at that. The government has no authority anymore.
    This is really one of the most childish takes on this whole story. Anyone so miffed about Cummings' behaviour that they deliberately expose themselves to a potentially-fatal disease out of spite deserves a Darwin Award.
    I've had coronavirus. So I'm almost certainly immune.
    You reckon?
    Insofar as we know anything about this virus, yes. Scientific consensus is that there is immunity, though no one knows how long it lasts.

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-scientists-conclude-people-cannot-be-infected-twice-11981721
    No one knows how long it lasts, but you think you're almost certainly still immune.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    TGOHF666 said:
    You mix in wonderful social circles Harry
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Saying nothing? Now that's leadership!

    Joe Pike was of course the 'journalist' whose phone Boris pocketed when he shoved it in his face, a massive scandal that led to ... absolutely nothing :smile:
    It’s excellent leadership. By not “politicising” this he deprives the Govt of a counterattack and allows it to dig its own grave, as it has been all weekend.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,555
    Raab never committed himself to the view that DC's explanation was true or justified his actions or that he should stay. And the others did broadly the same. From the off they were all hedging their bets on twitter.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    Jonathan said:

    I think more likely that he Labour leader simply cannot guarantee that all Labour MPs and staff have followed the rules and doesn’t have the details on Dummings anyway. You can be sure that people are checking up on Labour folk right now.
    Oh, if any Labour people have broken the rules ... :smile:
    As you do not tire of telling us, Labour people do not run the country, and the hypocrisy charges are harder to stick. Anyway, Cummings is not even a member of the Conservative Party so far as I am aware.
    Looks like you suspect they have. If Cummings goes, it will be open season on every last one of them, and that will be a joy to watch.
    I don’t know and don’t care, I am not a Labour supporter.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Well thanks Robert. Only a matter of time. An hour, a day, a year or until May 2024. Which is it?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Boris to be sacked?
    Lets hope so
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    Chris said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    How many MPs need to break cover before Downing Street gives up? 15? 20? 30?

    at what point does the 1922 start counting letters?
    If Cummings goes, Johnson goes. So I don;t see them giving up.
    I think that is wishful thinking.

    The only way Boris will go is if he has to stand down due to health

    And I am not at all happy with Boris going awol
    With one big kill to their name the press will scent another. If Cummings goes the next question is "what did Boris know?"

    Cummings either needs to be fired by Boris NOW or Boris, with an 80 seat majority behind him keeps his man. The dissenters will fall back into line on Boris' command.
    Trust me, by close of play on Friday the lock down will be over in Cummings hasn't gone.

    This is the only news story and screams one rule for us, another for everyone else.
    The lockdown is already over.

    What we still have is a partial shutdown.
    Post Cummings, we now have Liberty Hall.

    Anyone can break the rules now, using common sense and looking after their family interests.

    That is the significance. BoZo is just a cork in a storm, and not a visible one at that. The government has no authority anymore.
    This is really one of the most childish takes on this whole story. Anyone so miffed about Cummings' behaviour that they deliberately expose themselves to a potentially-fatal disease out of spite deserves a Darwin Award.
    The shocking thing about Cummings is that his actions exposed other to a lethal risk, probably his parents....I don't believe the crap that he went to see his sister only
    Well, one thing that is going to be rather difficult to lie about is whether there is really a separate house on the property that the Cummingses stayed in, and whether a third house would have been available for the sister to take care of the child in without putting the parents at risk.

    My bet is still that there's only one house.
    iirc there was a photo showing two houses.
    they need three though unless Dom and family slept in the byre
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    "Never interfere with an enemy while he is in the process of destroying himself"
    - Napoleon Bonaparte
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    Presser at 4. A nation holds its breath for comfort and leadership. Cometh the hour, cometh...
    Er...Robert Jenrick.
  • DougSeal said:

    Saying nothing? Now that's leadership!

    Joe Pike was of course the 'journalist' whose phone Boris pocketed when he shoved it in his face, a massive scandal that led to ... absolutely nothing :smile:
    It’s excellent leadership. By not “politicising” this he deprives the Govt of a counterattack and allows it to dig its own grave, as it has been all weekend.
    Either Starmer is just very good at politics or he's been advised well but I am happy with his performance to date.

    Still not sure where he stands on policy, suspect he's to the right of me but if he gets the Tories out, I am happy with that
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    "My inbox is rammed with very angry constituents"

    As I said last night, the anger out in Middle England is off the scale.

    Can't wait for some polling.
    Is that anger at Cummings, or anger at lockdown though? I suspect its a big slice of the latter.
    Actually lockdown is very popular and it is not hard to see why.

    Coming out of lockdown is where all the dangers are.
    Paying everyone close to their full salary not to work is always going to be popular.

    Withdrawing that support, with a couple of million becoming unemployed in the process, is going to be a whole lot of trouble no matter who is in charge. Ditto with the eventual spending cuts needed to pay for all the extra borrowing.
    UC will be a lot cheaper than furlough though, clock is ticking.
    Exactly. I think there's a lot of people who think the furlough scheme will continue indefinitely, or that their employer can keep everyone working from home in the face of significantly reduced demand in the economy.

    There's a severe recession happening, and there are going to be at least a couple of million P45s handed out over the next few months. I don't envy anyone in government anywhere right now, no matter what their own politics. The next couple of years are going to be horrific for everyone.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Scott_xP said:
    "Allies of Cummings" - that's Michael Gove and who else exactly ?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317

    If Johnson cannot find a fridge to hide in before Wednesday, the Commons Liaison Committee gearing on Wednesday could be quite interesting. The PM's exchanges with Yvette Cooper may be worth a watch.

    He has a flight booked to see Trump in America 10 mins before the scheduled appearance.
    (or to Durham to see his boss)

    #1rule4them
    The meeting you refer to is the G7 scheduled for June.

    Surely you are not suggesting the UK PM should not go
    Why can’t it be done via video conference?
    Chris said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Shapps claiming he doesn't know the dates and details of Cummings.

    Unbelievable.



    Not that unbelievable. Mrs Cummings seems to have been very confused about where they were during their illness despite writing a whole article about it and doing a Radio 4 interview.

    If she and her husband had no idea it’s a bit much to expect poor Mr Shapps to know.
    If you believe Mrs Cummings was really confused about where she'd been you must be very gullible indeed.

    This is scarcasm, presumably?
    Yes. I thought that was obvious.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    dixiedean said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The biggest news today should be this:

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1264459136441430016?s=21

    This government is responsible for thousands of unnecessary deaths.

    The second most important story is Sunak’s decision to end furlough for businesses legally unable to open thus leading to thousands of bankrupt businesses.
    Has he actually said that? The scheme is scheduled to change in August, and nearly all business are scheduled to be allowed to reopen in July?
    We don't know that. The plan/hope/vague aspiration is for them to reopen then.
    Plenty won't. Regardless of the "legality" or otherwise. Plenty more won't be able to function at a profitable capacity.
    Sure, but the quote was clearly misleading from one of the most consistently accurate posters on here.

    1. He is not ending furlough, the terms are planned to change in August.
    2. Most businesses are expected to be legally allowed to be open by then.
    3. The details have not been released so we have no idea if there will be exemptions for the businesses that are mandated to be closed.
    Fair enough. A lot unclear then.
  • Cummings is gone, I think.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    Has something happened? Shadsy seems to have suspended the Cummings market. Betfair/PP have 1/4 go, 11/4 stay.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Scott_xP said:
    Two points:

    1. Wonderful double negative reversing the meaning of the sentence.

    2. 'Allies of Cummings' LOL!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Dom has got to go, the second trip is unacceptable.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Sensible from Starmer, to be calling for an enquiry rather than a resignation at this stage.

    He knows that calling for the resignation makes it less likely to happen, at least until the story of the trip to the castle is resolved one way or the other.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sensible from Starmer, to be calling for an enquiry rather than a resignation at this stage.

    He knows that calling for the resignation makes it less likely to happen, at least until the story of the trip to the castle is resolved one way or the other.
    I suspect he knows there is more to come.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805

    Jonathan said:

    I think more likely that he Labour leader simply cannot guarantee that all Labour MPs and staff have followed the rules and doesn’t have the details on Dummings anyway. You can be sure that people are checking up on Labour folk right now.
    Oh, if any Labour people have broken the rules ... :smile:
    I don't give a toss what party a person belongs to or supports. It is what they do or don't do that counts. How can you be so partisan?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Scott_xP said:
    "Stay"Stay" Stay"

    FFS why didnt you stay at home

    #1rule4them
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    MaxPB said:

    Dom has got to go, the second trip is unacceptable.

    I said right at the beginning he would be gone by Monday evening.

    Looks like I was wrong by a day. He will be gone by 4pm.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    MaxPB said:

    Dom has got to go, the second trip is unacceptable.

    He has to go but second trip is denied
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    DougSeal said:


    I suspect someone will be doing just that.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    I think more likely that he Labour leader simply cannot guarantee that all Labour MPs and staff have followed the rules and doesn’t have the details on Dummings anyway. You can be sure that people are checking up on Labour folk right now.
    Oh, if any Labour people have broken the rules ... :smile:
    I don't give a toss what party a person belongs to or supports. It is what they do or don't do that counts. How can you be so partisan?
    The person who upvoted your comment campaigned passionately for an anti-semite to become Prime Minister, so that kind of answers your question.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Scores of Tory MPs have said absolubtely nothing at all on the matter.
    I reckon they're all secretly hoping he'll be sacked so they don't have to debase themselves with the nonsense Shapps trotted out this morning or go against the PM.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861
    The betting has been all over the place for the last few hours. I’m only allowed tiny stakes with Paddy Power. Even my small stakes cause them to move their prices. I know others will be betting but it may be a very illiquid market.

    I’ve adjusted my positions. +£72.55 if he goes. -£1.20 if he stays. So I’ve got 60/1 on him going!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    MaxPB said:

    Dom has got to go, the second trip is unacceptable.

    He has to go but second trip is denied
    So was he back in London on that date?

    If so that return trip south was equally unacceptable.

  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    Cummings is gone, I think.

    Cummings is gone, I think.

    You thought there was going to be a hung Parliament
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    MaxPB said:

    Dom has got to go, the second trip is unacceptable.

    Has that now been confirmed? Shapps said that didn’t happen.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    More footage of the press and TV crews failing to keep social distance from Dominic Cummings on a second day.

    Great example to the rest of the country, that rules are not for them.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Sandpit said:

    Sensible from Starmer, to be calling for an enquiry rather than a resignation at this stage.

    He knows that calling for the resignation makes it less likely to happen, at least until the story of the trip to the castle is resolved one way or the other.
    I suspect he knows there is more to come.
    If he's in No.10 right now, I assume he's sitting with the PM and another senior minister, writing down every single move he's made over the past couple of months.

    If it's just the trip to Durham as reported yesterday, he's probably safe as he means an awful lot to the PM - but if he's been making other trips around as reported today, or if there's anything he's done that hasn't so far been reported, then he's probably resigning this afternoon.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    The eye witness seems to have recorded the number plate of the car in question.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Saying nothing? Now that's leadership!

    Joe Pike was of course the 'journalist' whose phone Boris pocketed when he shoved it in his face, a massive scandal that led to ... absolutely nothing :smile:
    Yes, but it was clear at the time that it would lead to absolutely nothing. That is not a judgement made with hindsight, because I considered and discounted the effect of the incident to place my largest ever (embarrassingly small by local high roller standards) political bet on Con Maj.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dom has got to go, the second trip is unacceptable.

    Has that now been confirmed? Shapps said that didn’t happen.
    It has been denied
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    eek said:

    DougSeal said:


    I suspect someone will be doing just that.
    ...but which newspaper will that individual represent?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317

    Cyclefree said:

    The biggest news today should be this:

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1264459136441430016?s=21

    This government is responsible for thousands of unnecessary deaths.

    The second most important story is Sunak’s decision to end furlough for businesses legally unable to open thus leading to thousands of bankrupt businesses.
    Has he actually said that? The scheme is scheduled to change in August, and nearly all business are scheduled to be allowed to reopen in July?
    This is what the Times article says: “All employers using the scheme will be required to make the payments, even if they are still under lockdown.”

    How employers who are legally closed are supposed to pay wages when they have no income coming in is a mystery.

    My daughter has been alternately incandescent with fury and in tears since this came out. Tim Farron has been lobbying hard for the Lakes hospitality sector - https://timfarron.co.uk/en/article/2020/1361129/terrifying-unemployment-figures-shows-need-for-long-term-support-package-for-cumbrian-hospitality-and-tourism-industry-mp - and has asked for hospitality firms to be exempt - https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1263945671557742594?s=21.

    If Sunak goes ahead it will be a disaster or so many businesses and people. Those newly elected Tory MPs round here can kiss goodbye to their majorities.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Meanwhile, Carole has it all figured out already:

    https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1264485332252348417
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    Has something happened? Shadsy seems to have suspended the Cummings market. Betfair/PP have 1/4 go, 11/4 stay.

    Now 4/6 go, 11/10 stay. I can't offhand recall a market so volatile.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dom has got to go, the second trip is unacceptable.

    He has to go but second trip is denied
    So was he back in London on that date?

    If so that return trip south was equally unacceptable.
    The funny thing is, no one made that point yesterday. I guess they’d argue he returned to London for work.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    How many MPs need to break cover before Downing Street gives up? 15? 20? 30?

    at what point does the 1922 start counting letters?
    If Cummings goes, Johnson goes. So I don;t see them giving up.
    I think that is wishful thinking.

    The only way Boris will go is if he has to stand down due to health

    And I am not at all happy with Boris going awol
    With one big kill to their name the press will scent another. If Cummings goes the next question is "what did Boris know?"

    Cummings either needs to be fired by Boris NOW or Boris, with an 80 seat majority behind him keeps his man. The dissenters will fall back into line on Boris' command.
    Trust me, by close of play on Friday the lock down will be over in Cummings hasn't gone.

    This is the only news story and screams one rule for us, another for everyone else.
    The lockdown is already over.

    What we still have is a partial shutdown.
    Post Cummings, we now have Liberty Hall.

    Anyone can break the rules now, using common sense and looking after their family interests.

    That is the significance. BoZo is just a cork in a storm, and not a visible one at that. The government has no authority anymore.
    This is really one of the most childish takes on this whole story. Anyone so miffed about Cummings' behaviour that they deliberately expose themselves to a potentially-fatal disease out of spite deserves a Darwin Award.
    I've had coronavirus. So I'm almost certainly immune. I won't be exposing myself to a potentially fatal disease.

    Am I now allowed to do what the hell I like?
    I wondered why we hadn't seen you. Sorry to hear you've been ill, glad to hear you've recovered. Another organist of my acquaintance here in S. Staffs had it pretty badly as well but otherwise as far as I know all acquaintances have been unaffected. Think that may be a function of where I live.
  • This post sponsored by the Labour Party.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:


    I suspect someone will be doing just that.
    ...but which newspaper will that individual represent?
    Being perfectly blunt I would happily do it myself, if it wouldn't annoy the wife - no newspaper involved.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    Meanwhile, Carole has it all figured out already:

    https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1264485332252348417

    Interesting that Carole links Cummings with Gove and not Boris, which iirc is also what Steve Baker said as quoted here earlier.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Completely off topic

    Interesting election result in Virginia yesterday - Republicans took hold of a City council in an area that had voted for Hillary in 2016 on a turnout that more than doubled since the last election (17000 vs 7000). Commentators putting it down to a major backlash against both the CV lockdown measures by Virginia's Dem Governor plus recent legislation on gun control and abortion,

    https://townhall.com/tipsheet/elliebufkin/2020/05/22/red-wave-coming-democratic-stronghold-city-in-virginia-stunned-by-gop-sweep-n2569269

    I know a fair few on here were sceptical of the idea the Republicans would ever take Virginia in November but, if this is the spike in turnout they are getting for a city election, it suggests their base is massively fired up

    Against Biden I expect Trump to do slightly worse than he did v Hillary in white working class areas and the Midwest and rustbelt but better than he did v Hillary in wealthy upper middle class areas like suburban Virginia and Orange County, California.


    Plus as you say Trump's core vote remains fired up for him
    Turnout will be key, which is why Joe Biden's "you ain't black" comment is particularly unfortunate. In states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Virginia, if the Black vote doesn't come out to vote for Biden, hard to see him regaining these states.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    DougSeal said:

    Charles said:

    DougSeal said:

    Charles said:

    DougSeal said:

    Charles said:

    DougSeal said:

    This is another reason why the Cummings story matters -


    Which is why Conditional Discharges exist
    A conditional discharge still gives you a criminal record. And he had pretty watertight excuse for not being in his home. Unlike some.
    Yes. It’s clearly something that was overlooked in drafting and should be fixed. But as it stands he broke the law.
    Well, no, he has a defence, regulation 6(4), specifically refers to homeless people, as clear as day in the drafting, which is why the decision to prosecute is all the more sinister -

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/made

    I somehow doubt this chap can afford a solicitor - and don’t get me started on Legal Aid.
    How can the CPS prosecute when there is a clear defence? Why didn’t the judge throw it out?

    Setting aside the possibility that they are all idiots I assume there is more to the story than we know
    No - they are idiots

    https://twitter.com/lizziedearden/status/1261265439520370688
    The CPS is useless. I put it down to incredibly weak leadership for the last 10-15 years
    https://twitter.com/lizziedearden/status/1261272763437899776?s=19
    You missed my little dig then?

    But the CPS is useless regardless of this case. That has been demonstrated time and again
  • Just been told by Labour HQ that I need to make five posts on nationalisation or they will take my family.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited May 2020

    Meanwhile, Carole has it all figured out already:

    https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1264485332252348417

    I almost always disagree vehemently with Carole and her mad conspiracies, but there's probably a fair element of truth in that one.

    Even if he goes, he'll keep writing extensively and ministers such as Gove will keep reading closely what he has to say - although I doubt they'll pay him for it directly.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Meanwhile, Carole has it all figured out already:

    https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1264485332252348417

    Obviously.

    Gonna cost the tories though, as I don't thinik anyone will be happy about his salary coming from public coffers.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Completely off topic

    Interesting election result in Virginia yesterday - Republicans took hold of a City council in an area that had voted for Hillary in 2016 on a turnout that more than doubled since the last election (17000 vs 7000). Commentators putting it down to a major backlash against both the CV lockdown measures by Virginia's Dem Governor plus recent legislation on gun control and abortion,

    https://townhall.com/tipsheet/elliebufkin/2020/05/22/red-wave-coming-democratic-stronghold-city-in-virginia-stunned-by-gop-sweep-n2569269

    I know a fair few on here were sceptical of the idea the Republicans would ever take Virginia in November but, if this is the spike in turnout they are getting for a city election, it suggests their base is massively fired up

    Against Biden I expect Trump to do slightly worse than he did v Hillary in white working class areas and the Midwest and rustbelt but better than he did v Hillary in wealthy upper middle class areas like suburban Virginia and Orange County, California.


    Plus as you say Trump's core vote remains fired up for him
    Turnout will be key, which is why Joe Biden's "you ain't black" comment is particularly unfortunate. In states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Virginia, if the Black vote doesn't come out to vote for Biden, hard to see him regaining these states.
    Ps delete the regain Virginia comment
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The biggest news today should be this:

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1264459136441430016?s=21

    This government is responsible for thousands of unnecessary deaths.

    The second most important story is Sunak’s decision to end furlough for businesses legally unable to open thus leading to thousands of bankrupt businesses.
    Has he actually said that? The scheme is scheduled to change in August, and nearly all business are scheduled to be allowed to reopen in July?
    This is what the Times article says: “All employers using the scheme will be required to make the payments, even if they are still under lockdown.”

    How employers who are legally closed are supposed to pay wages when they have no income coming in is a mystery.

    My daughter has been alternately incandescent with fury and in tears since this came out. Tim Farron has been lobbying hard for the Lakes hospitality sector - https://timfarron.co.uk/en/article/2020/1361129/terrifying-unemployment-figures-shows-need-for-long-term-support-package-for-cumbrian-hospitality-and-tourism-industry-mp - and has asked for hospitality firms to be exempt - https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1263945671557742594?s=21.

    If Sunak goes ahead it will be a disaster or so many businesses and people. Those newly elected Tory MPs round here can kiss goodbye to their majorities.
    I would wait to see more detail.

    Rishi is switched on and I expect he will assess each sector of the economy on needs
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Just been told by Labour HQ that I need to make five posts on nationalisation or they will take my family.

    Well get on with it then!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    Has something happened? Shadsy seems to have suspended the Cummings market. Betfair/PP have 1/4 go, 11/4 stay.

    Now 4/6 go, 11/10 stay. I can't offhand recall a market so volatile.
    Betfair/PP now 4/5 go, 10/11 stay.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Just been told by Labour HQ that I need to make five posts on nationalisation or they will take my family.

    Your lucky i was told i had to post #1rule4them 100 times before the end of the day #1rule4them.

    Does that count as 2?
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    @BluestBlue are you back to continually tell us, all day, that you are not bothered in the slightest?

    I know right, how very dare I not do and say exactly what you want? I forgot that your view was the only one permitted on the forum.

    Remember how confident you were after the prorogation was rescinded? Kind of similar to how you're feeling now, right?
    Maybe try addressing the issues rather than constantly boasting about how well your party did last year before a disaster that has claimed in the region of 40,000 lives, many as a result of its incompetence, struck?

    I’m an Ipswich Town fan - you sound like I do when I get drunk and wax lyrically about the 1978 FA Cup Final and the 1981 UEFA Cup. Things are a bit different now.
    Looks like you were completely unable to address my point, so that's telling in itself :wink:
    That’s because you didn’t have one. I am not one of the people who thought the prorogation decision would bring down the government, or result in Johnson or Cummings going, or indeed having any measurable effect on any (yet to be called) election. I also thought that, because of Corbyn, a Tory victory was nailed on. So I can’t really defend the position you ask me to.

    However I do know this issue is going to be like Black Wednesday in 1992 - people will remember this in 2024 the same way people remembered Black Wednesday in 1997. Black Wednesday hit people in their pockets (I remember my Dad freaking out about the mortgage) and irreparably damaged the Government. It never recovered. The decision of Lady Hale and her colleagues last year was about an arcane bit of constitutional law no one cared about. This, however, is about a government defending a man who put voter’s lives at risk by quite possibly acting as a super spreader from London to the North East, and certainly breaching strongly supported lockdown regs . The differences between the two situations you outline are blindingly obvious. And Corbyn’s gone.
    Black Wednesday was about a serious failure of a key plank of government policy, that resulted in a severe recession, this is about whether or not an advisor to the government stayed in one place or another during a natural disaster. I doubt very much that anyone will be talking about it during the 2024 election campaign.

    It seems from this morning that the government have called the most serious reports of DC's behaviour as outright wrong. I suspect that if the papers concerned have evidence then he's toast, but if they don't then the story will be chip paper by next week.
    What will be fatal for Boris's government is if the perceived wisdom settles on the fact that they handled this crisis worse than just about every other country in Europe. If that becomes the case it will not disappear by 2024
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317

    dixiedean said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The biggest news today should be this:

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1264459136441430016?s=21

    This government is responsible for thousands of unnecessary deaths.

    The second most important story is Sunak’s decision to end furlough for businesses legally unable to open thus leading to thousands of bankrupt businesses.
    Has he actually said that? The scheme is scheduled to change in August, and nearly all business are scheduled to be allowed to reopen in July?
    We don't know that. The plan/hope/vague aspiration is for them to reopen then.
    Plenty won't. Regardless of the "legality" or otherwise. Plenty more won't be able to function at a profitable capacity.
    Sure, but the quote was clearly misleading from one of the most consistently accurate posters on here.

    1. He is not ending furlough, the terms are planned to change in August.
    2. Most businesses are expected to be legally allowed to be open by then.
    3. The details have not been released so we have no idea if there will be exemptions for the businesses that are mandated to be closed.
    I have given you the quote from the story.

    Let’s see what the precise details are. But if they are as reported it is a disastrous and very very stupid decision which will help yet more misery on millions.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited May 2020
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Completely off topic

    Interesting election result in Virginia yesterday - Republicans took hold of a City council in an area that had voted for Hillary in 2016 on a turnout that more than doubled since the last election (17000 vs 7000). Commentators putting it down to a major backlash against both the CV lockdown measures by Virginia's Dem Governor plus recent legislation on gun control and abortion,

    https://townhall.com/tipsheet/elliebufkin/2020/05/22/red-wave-coming-democratic-stronghold-city-in-virginia-stunned-by-gop-sweep-n2569269

    I know a fair few on here were sceptical of the idea the Republicans would ever take Virginia in November but, if this is the spike in turnout they are getting for a city election, it suggests their base is massively fired up

    Against Biden I expect Trump to do slightly worse than he did v Hillary in white working class areas and the Midwest and rustbelt but better than he did v Hillary in wealthy upper middle class areas like suburban Virginia and Orange County, California.


    Plus as you say Trump's core vote remains fired up for him
    Turnout will be key, which is why Joe Biden's "you ain't black" comment is particularly unfortunate. In states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Virginia, if the Black vote doesn't come out to vote for Biden, hard to see him regaining these states.
    Ps delete the regain Virginia comment
    Hover your cursor top right of the offending post till a settings icon appears, then click to get the option of editing, in the next 3 minutes and you can delete it yourself.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Just been told by Labour HQ that I need to make five posts on nationalisation or they will take my family.

    Concentrate on the M6 Toll. Free hit.
This discussion has been closed.