There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
Yep. Massive problem. With opposition parties and the unions playing holier-than-thou to further their own ends with no care whatsoever for the public finances - which are properly screwed.
What Johnson has shut down, he will have the devil's own job opening up.
Given reluctance of people to go back to work, opposition opportunism, social distancing rules and the extension of the furlough, a v shaped recovery is a mirage. Not only is debt ballooning but the deficit is opening up like the grand canyon. A size of deficit barely imaginable, and I daresay, almost impossible to recover.
I think we should look at our last calculation of the hock we are in, and add a nought.
Agreed. What can this populist government do? Opposition parties and unions are going to make hay with "nasty Tories" narrative, uncaring of the damage THEY are doing to our country by mischief-making in this way. The government should use its majority to make the decisions needed to get us out of this mess. But they lack the balls to be unpopular.
Out political system can`t cope with this. The end game may have to be some sort of national unity government.
The endgame will be the fall of Johnson and his replacement by someone who can weather a bad headline or two. Its coming sooner than everybody thinks.
The economic numbers are going to be just insane.
The stage is already set for this. The current “mainstream” criticism is that HMG cares more about money than people’s lives and that’s why they want to lift the lockdown. However, when the economic reckoning comes along the blame will also go to HMG for not locking down early enough.
There’s no easy answers to anything in this current situation.
What's the government's response? Delay the reckoning until September at even vaster expense.
After all, something might, you know, turn up......
Some of my friends want lockdown to continue until we have a vaccine, even if that takes years. Any lifting of the lockdown is considered Boris risking the lives of people in the name of the economy...
Yes - exactly - that`s the narrative. Let my guess though - I bet these friends assume they will continue to receive cash from the government for the whole period?
Humble pie from me. I always think if you call something wrong - especially when it happens as infrequently as it does with yours truly - you should promptly admit the fact. Own the bad call rather than stay quiet and hope everyone forgets. So on that principle - garden centres. I was sure that their re-opening this week would be the centrepiece of Johnson's address to the nation. It wasn't. Garden centres were not even mentioned. I was wrong. Apologies to anybody whose hopes were raised or - worse - had made concrete plans based on my forecast.
Don't be daft - not your fault. Number 10 briefed The Sun that pubs would open their beer gardens today. They spaffed out a whole load of hope and then forgot they had run out of tissues to mop up.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
That's a bit of a goalpost shift compared to yesterday. I was assured yesterday everyone knew wha stay alert means.
I am not other people and so I have not shifted any goalposts. This is my own interpretation.
They need a consistent message for a period of time when the instructions will change and not be consistent. This is clearly more difficult than the simpler stay home message.
I can't think of anything better than the ALERT double header.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
Yep. Massive problem. With opposition parties and the unions playing holier-than-thou to further their own ends with no care whatsoever for the public finances - which are properly screwed.
What Johnson has shut down, he will have the devil's own job opening up.
Given reluctance of people to go back to work, opposition opportunism, social distancing rules and the extension of the furlough, a v shaped recovery is a mirage. Not only is debt ballooning but the deficit is opening up like the grand canyon. A size of deficit barely imaginable, and I daresay, almost impossible to recover.
I think we should look at our last calculation of the hock we are in, and add a nought.
Agreed. What can this populist government do? Opposition parties and unions are going to make hay with "nasty Tories" narrative, uncaring of the damage THEY are doing to our country by mischief-making in this way. The government should use its majority to make the decisions needed to get us out of this mess. But they lack the balls to be unpopular.
Out political system can`t cope with this. The end game may have to be some sort of national unity government.
The endgame will be the fall of Johnson and his replacement by someone who can weather a bad headline or two. Its coming sooner than everybody thinks.
The economic numbers are going to be just insane.
The stage is already set for this. The current “mainstream” criticism is that HMG cares more about money than people’s lives and that’s why they want to lift the lockdown. However, when the economic reckoning comes along the blame will also go to HMG for not locking down early enough.
There’s no easy answers to anything in this current situation.
What's the government's response? Delay the reckoning until September at even vaster expense.
After all, something might, you know, turn up......
Some of my friends want lockdown to continue until we have a vaccine, even if that takes years. Any lifting of the lockdown is considered Boris risking the lives of people in the name of the economy...
It's not just about the economy. The effects of blanket lockdown are huge on mental, social, domestic and physical wellbeing ... as well as economic.
Of course some people want to remain in lockdown for years. Death is scary. People are afraid. That was the problem with the 'Stay at Home' message which I liked less than 'Stay Alert.'
I'm afraid though that Nanny State cannot protect everyone for ever from this virus. We have to learn to live with it. Some will die. Some people always do. I know.
Life is a series of calculated risks. The one we now have to take involves a degree of personal responsibility which wasn't so acute during Alert Level 5.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
Yep. Massive problem. With opposition parties and the unions playing holier-than-thou to further their own ends with no care whatsoever for the public finances - which are properly screwed.
What Johnson has shut down, he will have the devil's own job opening up.
Given reluctance of people to go back to work, opposition opportunism, social distancing rules and the extension of the furlough, a v shaped recovery is a mirage. Not only is debt ballooning but the deficit is opening up like the grand canyon. A size of deficit barely imaginable, and I daresay, almost impossible to recover.
I think we should look at our last calculation of the hock we are in, and add a nought.
Agreed. What can this populist government do? Opposition parties and unions are going to make hay with "nasty Tories" narrative, uncaring of the damage THEY are doing to our country by mischief-making in this way. The government should use its majority to make the decisions needed to get us out of this mess. But they lack the balls to be unpopular.
Out political system can`t cope with this. The end game may have to be some sort of national unity government.
The endgame will be the fall of Johnson and his replacement by someone who can weather a bad headline or two. Its coming sooner than everybody thinks.
The economic numbers are going to be just insane.
The stage is already set for this. The current “mainstream” criticism is that HMG cares more about money than people’s lives and that’s why they want to lift the lockdown. However, when the economic reckoning comes along the blame will also go to HMG for not locking down early enough.
There’s no easy answers to anything in this current situation.
What's the government's response? Delay the reckoning until September at even vaster expense.
After all, something might, you know, turn up......
Some of my friends want lockdown to continue until we have a vaccine, even if that takes years. Any lifting of the lockdown is considered Boris risking the lives of people in the name of the economy...
Yes - exactly - that`s the narrative. Let my guess though - I bet these friends assume they will continue to receive cash from the government for the whole period?
Some of them are furloughed, others are working from home, but they all have comfortable middle-class professional jobs with large amounts of savings. I’ve tried to point this out, but no dice.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
Yep. Massive problem. With opposition parties and the unions playing holier-than-thou to further their own ends with no care whatsoever for the public finances - which are properly screwed.
What Johnson has shut down, he will have the devil's own job opening up.
Given reluctance of people to go back to work, opposition opportunism, social distancing rules and the extension of the furlough, a v shaped recovery is a mirage. Not only is debt ballooning but the deficit is opening up like the grand canyon. A size of deficit barely imaginable, and I daresay, almost impossible to recover.
I think we should look at our last calculation of the hock we are in, and add a nought.
Agreed. What can this populist government do? Opposition parties and unions are going to make hay with "nasty Tories" narrative, uncaring of the damage THEY are doing to our country by mischief-making in this way. The government should use its majority to make the decisions needed to get us out of this mess. But they lack the balls to be unpopular.
Out political system can`t cope with this. The end game may have to be some sort of national unity government.
The endgame will be the fall of Johnson and his replacement by someone who can weather a bad headline or two. Its coming sooner than everybody thinks.
The economic numbers are going to be just insane.
The stage is already set for this. The current “mainstream” criticism is that HMG cares more about money than people’s lives and that’s why they want to lift the lockdown. However, when the economic reckoning comes along the blame will also go to HMG for not locking down early enough.
There’s no easy answers to anything in this current situation.
What's the government's response? Delay the reckoning until September at even vaster expense.
After all, something might, you know, turn up......
Some of my friends want lockdown to continue until we have a vaccine, even if that takes years. Any lifting of the lockdown is considered Boris risking the lives of people in the name of the economy...
Yes - exactly - that`s the narrative. Let my guess though - I bet these friends assume they will continue to receive cash from the government for the whole period?
Or their jobs can be done from home and they live in a house with a garden.
The new message is intended to be less clear because there are more things you are allowed to do. The whole point is that we no longer need to "stay home". People can choose to do so, but they can also choose not to.
We're almost getting to the point where the press has such an infantilised view of the public that they'll be asking why the government doesn't wipe everyone's arse for them.
Completely right.
People are at the point where they want to be told what to do because the virus is nasty and we'd rather shut ourselves away, get paid and not have to think for ourselves.
Well guess what? Life isn't like that. Time to suck it up.
"Time to Suck It Up. Vote Conservative" is a fabulous slogan. Especially in a week where potentially a million plus people are to be handed a letter informing them that they are being made redundant.
The new message is intended to be less clear because there are more things you are allowed to do. The whole point is that we no longer need to "stay home". People can choose to do so, but they can also choose not to.
We're almost getting to the point where the press has such an infantilised view of the public that they'll be asking why the government doesn't wipe everyone's arse for them.
I'm not defending the slogan because it's not very good, but anything that leaves the decision making in the people's hands rather than in government hands was always going to be much less clear.
No, it's less than clear because they are trying to square the circle of the mess they have made in reconciling the decision - that things stay essentially as they are and we review in a couple of weeks time - with the pre-briefing of the decision that things were going to change.
Some things have changed, I can now go outdoors and sit in a park with my partner for a picnic without the threat of being moved on by the police. I can go and play golf. I can go and sit in my parents garden 2m away from them.
These are real benefits for me that weren't available last week.
As far an my wife and myself are concerned, of course, our son can visit us, but not bring his wife or that set of grandchildren. Er.......
Just get on with it. The police aren't going to be after you.
SITE NEWS: At some stage in the next few days the new IPhone/Android friendly version of PB will start operating for those who access the site on their mobiles. Hopefully this will provide a better experience
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
Yep. Massive problem. With opposition parties and the unions playing holier-than-thou to further their own ends with no care whatsoever for the public finances - which are properly screwed.
What Johnson has shut down, he will have the devil's own job opening up.
Given reluctance of people to go back to work, opposition opportunism, social distancing rules and the extension of the furlough, a v shaped recovery is a mirage. Not only is debt ballooning but the deficit is opening up like the grand canyon. A size of deficit barely imaginable, and I daresay, almost impossible to recover.
I think we should look at our last calculation of the hock we are in, and add a nought.
Agreed. What can this populist government do? Opposition parties and unions are going to make hay with "nasty Tories" narrative, uncaring of the damage THEY are doing to our country by mischief-making in this way. The government should use its majority to make the decisions needed to get us out of this mess. But they lack the balls to be unpopular.
Out political system can`t cope with this. The end game may have to be some sort of national unity government.
The endgame will be the fall of Johnson and his replacement by someone who can weather a bad headline or two. Its coming sooner than everybody thinks.
The economic numbers are going to be just insane.
The stage is already set for this. The current “mainstream” criticism is that HMG cares more about money than people’s lives and that’s why they want to lift the lockdown. However, when the economic reckoning comes along the blame will also go to HMG for not locking down early enough.
There’s no easy answers to anything in this current situation.
What's the government's response? Delay the reckoning until September at even vaster expense.
After all, something might, you know, turn up......
Some of my friends want lockdown to continue until we have a vaccine, even if that takes years. Any lifting of the lockdown is considered Boris risking the lives of people in the name of the economy...
They want the lockdown to continue indefinitely, or they want the furlough scheme - that pays them well to do nothing - continuing indefinitely?
The longer this pandemic goes on the more the situation in the UK saddens me, compared to the situation in Germany. And I am not referring to case numbers or the numbers of deaths etc.
It seems that the British approach is very adversarial. A simple example is a teachers union demanding xyz or they will instruct their members not to go to school on 1st June. And this was on Saturday morning, so 36 hours before Johnson's speech, but when it was known thathe would hold on. I don't want to point the finger at teachers here. I'm not just slagging of unions, beacause I have seen similar attitudes from journalists and many other vested interest groups from different sides of the political spectrum.
I just dislike this threatening attitude, which hinders in the long run. Of course teachers and teachers' unions have genuine concerns they need to raise, but threats and ultimatums on a national level are not helpful. In Germany for the most part, and certainly in the education sector, the vested interests want to help. They are prepared to make a go of returning to school despite having a new timetable each week, despite having complex one-way-systems in the corridors and the pupils not being allowed in the school common room/yard at break times. The school directors work within the guidelines set by the state education dept, and work with the teachers to get something workable for their own school. And again this different attitude is not just in schools, it seems to be accross much of the German society.
Wales appears to be doing particularly poorly, with a markedly higher infection rate and markedly lower testing rate than the other countries, which could suggest the real infection rate is even higher. Scotland and England much of a wash except for deaths - with England ahead - but as its a lagging indicator and it is believed Scotland lags England that may narrow over the next couple of weeks.
I have used it for a long time , has been posted several times on site over last few weeks. It is where I get my data from when I check your fake numbers fibs about Scotland
He was the man who didn't understand how close Dover was to Calais. Why they send such an obviously incompetent moron out to bat for the Government beats me.
I don't get it. He is evidently not a moron (a quick glance at his CV confirms this) and actually I have been impressed with his demeanour throughout this crisis.
That said, he talks an absolute load of bollocks which people could easily take as proof that he is indeed a moron.
I think it is just that once a part of government you agree to abide by all the illogicalities and idiocies that that government propounds. And this is what we are seeing.
Does Raab go home and think "job well done" or does he think "dear god what have I said"?
FWIW, I get the impression of someone who is so anxious when appearing in public that their mind goes blank. This has happened to me on occasion, so I'm not entirely unsympathetic... but it's not ideal in a politician.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
Because, Phil me old mucker, actions taken as a result of thinking for yourself might be illegal in this new phase. And the police are about to have greater powers to sanction you if so.
I would be opposed to the Police getting involved unless something is egregious and clearly illegal.
Ahhh grasshopper. You are edging towards why we are so interested in all this. There is a new phase, I get it. We might be allowed to do more than previously, we'll wait to see the legislation. And when there is legislation the police will be empowered to enforce it. I would be interested to hear the legal distinction between egregious and illegal but I suspect you don't know it. Neither do I. Hence we need the law to tell us, and the police because it's not the police's job to take your advice about when they should get involved.
So hahaha one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks all a big joke for many PB-ers happily sitting with their families in big houses.
But for many people, perhaps some without the wherewithal to go to the primary legislation, this shit matters. It is the difference between things which will help or hinder their sanity.
Again what is the law and what is the advice are not the same thing. Nor should they be. The law should be what is egregious and that should be what the Police get involved in.
So one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks etc - I would be amazed if any of that is in the law. Exercising twice a day wasn't and quite right too.
The law and the advice are not the same thing nor should they be.
I couldn't agree more. As I have said since yesterday at 7.14pm we will wait to see what the SI says as amended or replaced.
But just as @MaxPB took from the briefing that he will be able to go to sit in the park with his friend, so did the PM make clear that the police will have stronger powers to deal with lawbreakers.
So we will wait to see what the law says. It might set a limit on the number of people allowed to congregate (I note that the govt included basketball as a sport which would be ok to take part in...with members of your family...wtf...). Or it might not and it might allow the guidance to do the heavy lifting.
Whatever the law says, whatever the guidance says, however, what we will not be able to do is to think for ourselves. As the one/two parent gathering conundrum has illustrated.
Johnson has spent the last eight weeks imposing the most draconian limits on personal freedom and liberty we have ever seen, accompanied by aggressive and intimidating propaganda telling us how we can live our lives
He cannot, he simply cannot suddenly start telling people to think for themselves. when he has spent the last eight weeks telling them to do the opposite at vast expense to the exchequer.
Haven't you spent the last few weeks arguing the precise opposite of that ?
I read that Sunak is extending the furlough to September [snip] The message from the government is therefore this is a viable long term alternative.
One issue that isn't being debated enough, probably because it is a Kobayashi Maru test, is public transport.
How can you have social distancing on the tube/buses/trains?
Perhaps this means some sort of limited furlough scheme will have to be in place until a vaccine arrives.
Prescott's ban on parking spaces doesn't look so sensible now.
The largest usage of public transport (by far) is office workers and those working in the office work support jobs.
Since the government is keeping "WFH if possible" in place, this means that the vast majority of the rush hour on public transport will not return.
Office workers in large cities are going to be back to work around the same time as the nightclubs open - maybe the end of the year, or maybe not until after we have a vaccine.
There's going to be very little appetite for hundreds of thousands of City commuters to spend several hours a day (and vast amounts of money) in conditions in which it would be illegal to transport animals - despite the fact that many of them begrudgingly did it for decades until a couple of months ago.
I think so - for the government, in-efficiences in WFH are minor issue. So why not keep the WTF in place?
I've seen casual numbers (trying to find real data) that 30%+ of the workforce is working from home.
In office dominated ares (such as Central London), it wouldn't surprise me that 80%+ of jobs are either WTF, or furloughed because the jobs are there to support the office jobs.
SITE NEWS: At some stage in the next few days the new IPhone/Android friendly version of PB will start operating for those who access the site on their mobiles. Hopefully this will provide a better experience
I hope it's not from those nice folks who built the track and trace app...
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
Yep. Massive problem. With opposition parties and the unions playing holier-than-thou to further their own ends with no care whatsoever for the public finances - which are properly screwed.
What Johnson has shut down, he will have the devil's own job opening up.
Given reluctance of people to go back to work, opposition opportunism, social distancing rules and the extension of the furlough, a v shaped recovery is a mirage. Not only is debt ballooning but the deficit is opening up like the grand canyon. A size of deficit barely imaginable, and I daresay, almost impossible to recover.
I think we should look at our last calculation of the hock we are in, and add a nought.
Agreed. What can this populist government do? Opposition parties and unions are going to make hay with "nasty Tories" narrative, uncaring of the damage THEY are doing to our country by mischief-making in this way. The government should use its majority to make the decisions needed to get us out of this mess. But they lack the balls to be unpopular.
Out political system can`t cope with this. The end game may have to be some sort of national unity government.
The endgame will be the fall of Johnson and his replacement by someone who can weather a bad headline or two. Its coming sooner than everybody thinks.
The economic numbers are going to be just insane.
The stage is already set for this. The current “mainstream” criticism is that HMG cares more about money than people’s lives and that’s why they want to lift the lockdown. However, when the economic reckoning comes along the blame will also go to HMG for not locking down early enough.
There’s no easy answers to anything in this current situation.
What's the government's response? Delay the reckoning until September at even vaster expense.
After all, something might, you know, turn up......
Some of my friends want lockdown to continue until we have a vaccine, even if that takes years. Any lifting of the lockdown is considered Boris risking the lives of people in the name of the economy...
Yes - exactly - that`s the narrative. Let my guess though - I bet these friends assume they will continue to receive cash from the government for the whole period?
Some of them are furloughed, others are working from home, but they all have comfortable middle-class professional jobs with large amounts of savings. I’ve tried to point this out, but no dice.
Public ignorance around this astonishes me. They literally think that the government has mounds of cash - cash that is unconnected to the taxes it raises.
All government money comes from the private sector. Destroy that and we are done.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
Because, Phil me old mucker, actions taken as a result of thinking for yourself might be illegal in this new phase. And the police are about to have greater powers to sanction you if so.
I would be opposed to the Police getting involved unless something is egregious and clearly illegal.
Ahhh grasshopper. You are edging towards why we are so interested in all this. There is a new phase, I get it. We might be allowed to do more than previously, we'll wait to see the legislation. And when there is legislation the police will be empowered to enforce it. I would be interested to hear the legal distinction between egregious and illegal but I suspect you don't know it. Neither do I. Hence we need the law to tell us, and the police because it's not the police's job to take your advice about when they should get involved.
So hahaha one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks all a big joke for many PB-ers happily sitting with their families in big houses.
But for many people, perhaps some without the wherewithal to go to the primary legislation, this shit matters. It is the difference between things which will help or hinder their sanity.
Again what is the law and what is the advice are not the same thing. Nor should they be. The law should be what is egregious and that should be what the Police get involved in.
So one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks etc - I would be amazed if any of that is in the law. Exercising twice a day wasn't and quite right too.
The law and the advice are not the same thing nor should they be.
I couldn't agree more. As I have said since yesterday at 7.14pm we will wait to see what the SI says as amended or replaced.
But just as @MaxPB took from the briefing that he will be able to go to sit in the park with his friend, so did the PM make clear that the police will have stronger powers to deal with lawbreakers.
So we will wait to see what the law says. It might set a limit on the number of people allowed to congregate (I note that the govt included basketball as a sport which would be ok to take part in...with members of your family...wtf...). Or it might not and it might allow the guidance to do the heavy lifting.
Whatever the law says, whatever the guidance says, however, what we will not be able to do is to think for ourselves. As the one/two parent gathering conundrum has illustrated.
I'm glad we're agreed.
Power to deal with lawbreakers is quite right but only with lawbreakers. And lawbreakers doesn't (nor should it) necessarily mean everyone breaking "advice".
To make another driving analogy the Highway Code includes a lot of "you must do ..." and a lot of "you should do ..." for different scenarios. EG for driving in wet weather it says you should leave a bigger gap between cars in wet weather. That is sound advice and quite right too. While saying you need to keep to the left is a must so it is the law and the Police can get involved if you don't.
Not all cases of should ought to be must in the law.
The latest bit of cronyism by the government in the Covid-19 crisis is that Dido Harding (she of TalkTalk data scandal fame, and wife of Tory MP John Penrose) has been put in charge of the new App !
The IT community is going nuts! It is going to be Dyson and the ventilators all over again.
SITE NEWS: At some stage in the next few days the new IPhone/Android friendly version of PB will start operating for those who access the site on their mobiles. Hopefully this will provide a better experience
Thanks Mike, hope it goes better than the NHS tracking app
Seriously though, let me know if you need anyone to do some testing on it, and do you have an easy way of reporting issues with the app away from the main site? I (and a few others here, I'm sure) do software stuff for a living, and have rather more personal bandwidth than I'd like at the moment.
The longer this pandemic goes on the more the situation in the UK saddens me, compared to the situation in Germany. And I am not referring to case numbers or the numbers of deaths etc.
Idept, and work with the teachers to get something workable for their own school. And again this different attitude is not just in schools, it seems to be accross much of the German society.
Germany: Thousands of protesters slam isolation measures
"Demonstrators gathered in Berlin, Munich, Stuttgart and other German cities to decry coronavirus-triggered restrictions imposed by the government. A right-wing protester attacked a team of reporters in Dortmund."
The longer this pandemic goes on the more the situation in the UK saddens me, compared to the situation in Germany. And I am not referring to case numbers or the numbers of deaths etc.
It seems that the British approach is very adversarial. A simple example is a teachers union demanding xyz or they will instruct their members not to go to school on 1st June. And this was on Saturday morning, so 36 hours before Johnson's speech, but when it was known thathe would hold on. I don't want to point the finger at teachers here. I'm not just slagging of unions, beacause I have seen similar attitudes from journalists and many other vested interest groups from different sides of the political spectrum.
I just dislike this threatening attitude, which hinders in the long run. Of course teachers and teachers' unions have genuine concerns they need to raise, but threats and ultimatums on a national level are not helpful. In Germany for the most part, and certainly in the education sector, the vested interests want to help. They are prepared to make a go of returning to school despite having a new timetable each week, despite having complex one-way-systems in the corridors and the pupils not being allowed in the school common room/yard at break times. The school directors work within the guidelines set by the state education dept, and work with the teachers to get something workable for their own school. And again this different attitude is not just in schools, it seems to be accross much of the German society.
Great post. A lot of this adverserial stuff is due to 24 hour news. As I keep saying Nurses , Doctors, Police, Food Manufacturers and Processors etc etc have all been at work with new working practices. Yet it seems for those sat at home on 80-100% pay think that they should not have to go to work and use these new working practices which are readily available online. They think that it is perfectly ok for those who have worked since lockdown to continue to work.
@DavidL that’s all well and good but when the Police are going to be given more powers to arbitrarily impose even greater fines, its only those who are unlucky who are going to be punished.
I would suggest only those being stupid. Like having a house party with multiple guests or large scale BBQs with people swirling about in close proximity. I find it genuinely bizarre that people want government to micro-manage their lives like this. Do people really think (a) that is appropriate and (b) that makes them safe?
Of course here in Scotland our FM still thinks that she does know best. Sigh.
Worst case she knows a lot more about position in Scotland than Boris.
Then why does she say;
1) The R number in Scotland is still too high to end lockdown and 2) I can't tell you what the R number is?
Now you are just being silly, you are far far from your original topics. They all have to guess where the R number is , scientists included, if you were not so besotted with doing Scotland down you would have read that in England Government thinks it is between 0.6 and 0.9 but very near 1. Fact that Sturgeon did not speculate and just make up a number makes lots of sense. She certainly comes across with a lot more clarity than Boris regardless of whether completely right, she is at least consistent.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
Yep. Massive problem. With opposition parties and the unions playing holier-than-thou to further their own ends with no care whatsoever for the public finances - which are properly screwed.
What Johnson has shut down, he will have the devil's own job opening up.
Given reluctance of people to go back to work, opposition opportunism, social distancing rules and the extension of the furlough, a v shaped recovery is a mirage. Not only is debt ballooning but the deficit is opening up like the grand canyon. A size of deficit barely imaginable, and I daresay, almost impossible to recover.
I think we should look at our last calculation of the hock we are in, and add a nought.
Agreed. What can this populist government do? Opposition parties and unions are going to make hay with "nasty Tories" narrative, uncaring of the damage THEY are doing to our country by mischief-making in this way. The government should use its majority to make the decisions needed to get us out of this mess. But they lack the balls to be unpopular.
Out political system can`t cope with this. The end game may have to be some sort of national unity government.
The endgame will be the fall of Johnson and his replacement by someone who can weather a bad headline or two. Its coming sooner than everybody thinks.
The economic numbers are going to be just insane.
The stage is already set for this. The current “mainstream” criticism is that HMG cares more about money than people’s lives and that’s why they want to lift the lockdown. However, when the economic reckoning comes along the blame will also go to HMG for not locking down early enough.
There’s no easy answers to anything in this current situation.
What's the government's response? Delay the reckoning until September at even vaster expense.
After all, something might, you know, turn up......
Some of my friends want lockdown to continue until we have a vaccine, even if that takes years. Any lifting of the lockdown is considered Boris risking the lives of people in the name of the economy...
It's not just about the economy. The effects of blanket lockdown are huge on mental, social, domestic and physical wellbeing ... as well as economic.
Of course some people want to remain in lockdown for years. Death is scary. People are afraid. That was the problem with the 'Stay at Home' message which I liked less than 'Stay Alert.'
I'm afraid though that Nanny State cannot protect everyone for ever from this virus. We have to learn to live with it. Some will die. Some people always do. I know.
Life is a series of calculated risks. The one we now have to take involves a degree of personal responsibility which wasn't so acute during Alert Level 5.
But we have to take them.
"I'm afraid though that Nanny State cannot protect everyone for ever from this virus. We have to learn to live with it. Some will die. Some people always do. I know."
A welcome about turn from you. Welcome aboard the sanity train.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
Because, Phil me old mucker, actions taken as a result of thinking for yourself might be illegal in this new phase. And the police are about to have greater powers to sanction you if so.
I would be opposed to the Police getting involved unless something is egregious and clearly illegal.
Ahhh grasshopper. You are edging towards why we are so interested in all this. There is a new phase, I get it. We might be allowed to do more than previously, we'll wait to see the legislation. And when there is legislation the police will be empowered to enforce it. I would be interested to hear the legal distinction between egregious and illegal but I suspect you don't know it. Neither do I. Hence we need the law to tell us, and the police because it's not the police's job to take your advice about when they should get involved.
So hahaha one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks all a big joke for many PB-ers happily sitting with their families in big houses.
But for many people, perhaps some without the wherewithal to go to the primary legislation, this shit matters. It is the difference between things which will help or hinder their sanity.
Again what is the law and what is the advice are not the same thing. Nor should they be. The law should be what is egregious and that should be what the Police get involved in.
So one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks etc - I would be amazed if any of that is in the law. Exercising twice a day wasn't and quite right too.
The law and the advice are not the same thing nor should they be.
I couldn't agree more. As I have said since yesterday at 7.14pm we will wait to see what the SI says as amended or replaced.
But just as @MaxPB took from the briefing that he will be able to go to sit in the park with his friend, so did the PM make clear that the police will have stronger powers to deal with lawbreakers.
So we will wait to see what the law says. It might set a limit on the number of people allowed to congregate (I note that the govt included basketball as a sport which would be ok to take part in...with members of your family...wtf...). Or it might not and it might allow the guidance to do the heavy lifting.
Whatever the law says, whatever the guidance says, however, what we will not be able to do is to think for ourselves. As the one/two parent gathering conundrum has illustrated.
I'm glad we're agreed.
Power to deal with lawbreakers is quite right but only with lawbreakers. And lawbreakers doesn't (nor should it) necessarily mean everyone breaking "advice".
To make another driving analogy the Highway Code includes a lot of "you must do ..." and a lot of "you should do ..." for different scenarios. EG for driving in wet weather it says you should leave a bigger gap between cars in wet weather. That is sound advice and quite right too. While saying you need to keep to the left is a must so it is the law and the Police can get involved if you don't.
Not all cases of should ought to be must in the law.
The problem is Philip, is that even if the government does the complete opposite of what you’ve just suggested (which I agree with), you’ll still defend it.
The new message is intended to be less clear because there are more things you are allowed to do. The whole point is that we no longer need to "stay home". People can choose to do so, but they can also choose not to.
We're almost getting to the point where the press has such an infantilised view of the public that they'll be asking why the government doesn't wipe everyone's arse for them.
Completely right.
People are at the point where they want to be told what to do because the virus is nasty and we'd rather shut ourselves away, get paid and not have to think for ourselves.
Well guess what? Life isn't like that. Time to suck it up.
"Time to Suck It Up. Vote Conservative" is a fabulous slogan. Especially in a week where potentially a million plus people are to be handed a letter informing them that they are being made redundant.
I voted Labour & helped elect a Labour MP.
(LibDems didn't have a chance)
We have to get back on the horse. People are scared and lashing out. Of course. Still have to do it.
The latest bit of cronyism by the government in the Covid-19 crisis is that Dido Harding (she of TalkTalk data scandal fame, and wife of Tory MP John Penrose) has been put in charge of the new App !
The IT community is going nuts! It is going to be Dyson and the ventilators all over again.
You do know that precisely no public money was given to Dyson, and they spent a couple of dozen million of their own resources on the project?
1. He looked and sounded fine. We can cease worrying about his health.
2. I have no problem with the "Stay Home" to "Stay Alert" message change. To me the meaning is obvious. Get out and about a bit more if you wish but keep to distancing and elevated hygiene.
3. The overall vibe is of a government not in control. They are in the dark about the virus and unsure how to proceed. There is no confidence we can open up without a second spike and many many deaths. The "plan" therefore is to encourage baby steps and watch the numbers with fingers crossed.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
Because, Phil me old mucker, actions taken as a result of thinking for yourself might be illegal in this new phase. And the police are about to have greater powers to sanction you if so.
I would be opposed to the Police getting involved unless something is egregious and clearly illegal.
Ahhh grasshopper. You are edging towards why we are so interested in all this. There is a new phase, I get it. We might be allowed to do more than previously, we'll wait to see the legislation. And when there is legislation the police will be empowered to enforce it. I would be interested to hear the legal distinction between egregious and illegal but I suspect you don't know it. Neither do I. Hence we need the law to tell us, and the police because it's not the police's job to take your advice about when they should get involved.
So hahaha one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks all a big joke for many PB-ers happily sitting with their families in big houses.
But for many people, perhaps some without the wherewithal to go to the primary legislation, this shit matters. It is the difference between things which will help or hinder their sanity.
Again what is the law and what is the advice are not the same thing. Nor should they be. The law should be what is egregious and that should be what the Police get involved in.
So one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks etc - I would be amazed if any of that is in the law. Exercising twice a day wasn't and quite right too.
The law and the advice are not the same thing nor should they be.
I couldn't agree more. As I have said since yesterday at 7.14pm we will wait to see what the SI says as amended or replaced.
But just as @MaxPB took from the briefing that he will be able to go to sit in the park with his friend, so did the PM make clear that the police will have stronger powers to deal with lawbreakers.
So we will wait to see what the law says. It might set a limit on the number of people allowed to congregate (I note that the govt included basketball as a sport which would be ok to take part in...with members of your family...wtf...). Or it might not and it might allow the guidance to do the heavy lifting.
Whatever the law says, whatever the guidance says, however, what we will not be able to do is to think for ourselves. As the one/two parent gathering conundrum has illustrated.
I'm glad we're agreed.
Power to deal with lawbreakers is quite right but only with lawbreakers. And lawbreakers doesn't (nor should it) necessarily mean everyone breaking "advice".
To make another driving analogy the Highway Code includes a lot of "you must do ..." and a lot of "you should do ..." for different scenarios. EG for driving in wet weather it says you should leave a bigger gap between cars in wet weather. That is sound advice and quite right too. While saying you need to keep to the left is a must so it is the law and the Police can get involved if you don't.
Not all cases of should ought to be must in the law.
Indeed or the mother of all advice which is not law: Don't drink and drive.
What we can't do when we drink and drive, though, is think for ourselves. It is a very clearly defined limit to blood alcohol levels. You might think you are the safest driver on earth after a bottle of Proper Twelve but the law would say otherwise.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
Because, Phil me old mucker, actions taken as a result of thinking for yourself might be illegal in this new phase. And the police are about to have greater powers to sanction you if so.
I would be opposed to the Police getting involved unless something is egregious and clearly illegal.
Ahhh grasshopper. You are edging towards why we are so interested in all this. There is a new phase, I get it. We might be allowed to do more than previously, we'll wait to see the legislation. And when there is legislation the police will be empowered to enforce it. I would be interested to hear the legal distinction between egregious and illegal but I suspect you don't know it. Neither do I. Hence we need the law to tell us, and the police because it's not the police's job to take your advice about when they should get involved.
So hahaha one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks all a big joke for many PB-ers happily sitting with their families in big houses.
But for many people, perhaps some without the wherewithal to go to the primary legislation, this shit matters. It is the difference between things which will help or hinder their sanity.
Again what is the law and what is the advice are not the same thing. Nor should they be. The law should be what is egregious and that should be what the Police get involved in.
So one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks etc - I would be amazed if any of that is in the law. Exercising twice a day wasn't and quite right too.
The law and the advice are not the same thing nor should they be.
I couldn't agree more. As I have said since yesterday at 7.14pm we will wait to see what the SI says as amended or replaced.
But just as @MaxPB took from the briefing that he will be able to go to sit in the park with his friend, so did the PM make clear that the police will have stronger powers to deal with lawbreakers.
So we will wait to see what the law says. It might set a limit on the number of people allowed to congregate (I note that the govt included basketball as a sport which would be ok to take part in...with members of your family...wtf...). Or it might not and it might allow the guidance to do the heavy lifting.
Whatever the law says, whatever the guidance says, however, what we will not be able to do is to think for ourselves. As the one/two parent gathering conundrum has illustrated.
I'm glad we're agreed.
Power to deal with lawbreakers is quite right but only with lawbreakers. And lawbreakers doesn't (nor should it) necessarily mean everyone breaking "advice".
To make another driving analogy the Highway Code includes a lot of "you must do ..." and a lot of "you should do ..." for different scenarios. EG for driving in wet weather it says you should leave a bigger gap between cars in wet weather. That is sound advice and quite right too. While saying you need to keep to the left is a must so it is the law and the Police can get involved if you don't.
Not all cases of should ought to be must in the law.
The problem is Philip, is that even if the government does the complete opposite of what you’ve just suggested (which I agree with), you’ll still defend it.
No I won't!
I am not a party loyalist. I defend what I believe in and criticise what I oppose. When the government does illiberal nonsense that goes against my beliefs I criticise it. And I've criticised it at times during the epidemic too.
Mr. Malmesbury, there was some posted here (I think) a few days ago.
Wish I could be confident of remembering the stats but I think it was something like 37% currently working from home and around 10% being the normal proportion. Can't say I have confidence in remembering it accurately, though.
The longer this pandemic goes on the more the situation in the UK saddens me, compared to the situation in Germany. And I am not referring to case numbers or the numbers of deaths etc.
It seems that the British approach is very adversarial. A simple example is a teachers union demanding xyz or they will instruct their members not to go to school on 1st June. And this was on Saturday morning, so 36 hours before Johnson's speech, but when it was known thathe would hold on. I don't want to point the finger at teachers here. I'm not just slagging of unions, beacause I have seen similar attitudes from journalists and many other vested interest groups from different sides of the political spectrum.
I just dislike this threatening attitude, which hinders in the long run. Of course teachers and teachers' unions have genuine concerns they need to raise, but threats and ultimatums on a national level are not helpful. In Germany for the most part, and certainly in the education sector, the vested interests want to help. They are prepared to make a go of returning to school despite having a new timetable each week, despite having complex one-way-systems in the corridors and the pupils not being allowed in the school common room/yard at break times. The school directors work within the guidelines set by the state education dept, and work with the teachers to get something workable for their own school. And again this different attitude is not just in schools, it seems to be accross much of the German society.
Much of it setting-out-the-chairs rhetoric. This is why activists get upset when they find out that both sides actually co-operate. "You can't go round *talking* to x, they are the enemy".
For example, the teaching unions have and are meeting with the government (at all levels from local to UK) to discuss the results of various trials and plans for how to partially re-open schools. N rounds of dealing with various issues etc.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
Because, Phil me old mucker, actions taken as a result of thinking for yourself might be illegal in this new phase. And the police are about to have greater powers to sanction you if so.
I would be opposed to the Police getting involved unless something is egregious and clearly illegal.
Ahhh grasshopper. You are edging towards why we are so interested in all this. There is a new phase, I get it. We might be allowed to do more than previously, we'll wait to see the legislation. And when there is legislation the police will be empowered to enforce it. I would be interested to hear the legal distinction between egregious and illegal but I suspect you don't know it. Neither do I. Hence we need the law to tell us, and the police because it's not the police's job to take your advice about when they should get involved.
So hahaha one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks all a big joke for many PB-ers happily sitting with their families in big houses.
But for many people, perhaps some without the wherewithal to go to the primary legislation, this shit matters. It is the difference between things which will help or hinder their sanity.
Again what is the law and what is the advice are not the same thing. Nor should they be. The law should be what is egregious and that should be what the Police get involved in.
So one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks etc - I would be amazed if any of that is in the law. Exercising twice a day wasn't and quite right too.
The law and the advice are not the same thing nor should they be.
I couldn't agree more. As I have said since yesterday at 7.14pm we will wait to see what the SI says as amended or replaced.
But just as @MaxPB took from the briefing that he will be able to go to sit in the park with his friend, so did the PM make clear that the police will have stronger powers to deal with lawbreakers.
So we will wait to see what the law says. It might set a limit on the number of people allowed to congregate (I note that the govt included basketball as a sport which would be ok to take part in...with members of your family...wtf...). Or it might not and it might allow the guidance to do the heavy lifting.
Whatever the law says, whatever the guidance says, however, what we will not be able to do is to think for ourselves. As the one/two parent gathering conundrum has illustrated.
I'm glad we're agreed.
Power to deal with lawbreakers is quite right but only with lawbreakers. And lawbreakers doesn't (nor should it) necessarily mean everyone breaking "advice".
To make another driving analogy the Highway Code includes a lot of "you must do ..." and a lot of "you should do ..." for different scenarios. EG for driving in wet weather it says you should leave a bigger gap between cars in wet weather. That is sound advice and quite right too. While saying you need to keep to the left is a must so it is the law and the Police can get involved if you don't.
Not all cases of should ought to be must in the law.
Indeed or the mother of all advice which is not law: Don't drink and drive.
What we can't do when we drink and drive, though, is think for ourselves. It is a very clearly defined limit to blood alcohol levels. You might think you are the safest driver on earth after a bottle of Proper Twelve but the law would say otherwise.
Absolutely as I said the law should deal with what is egregious.
If you want to drink and drive and be under the limit you need to think for yourself how to do that. There is no answer to "can I drink a pint and drive" or "can I drink two pints and drive" which is what the media are blathering on about with all these hypotheticals expecting set answers to every question they can come up with.
The longer this pandemic goes on the more the situation in the UK saddens me, compared to the situation in Germany. And I am not referring to case numbers or the numbers of deaths etc.
Idept, and work with the teachers to get something workable for their own school. And again this different attitude is not just in schools, it seems to be accross much of the German society.
Germany: Thousands of protesters slam isolation measures
"Demonstrators gathered in Berlin, Munich, Stuttgart and other German cities to decry coronavirus-triggered restrictions imposed by the government. A right-wing protester attacked a team of reporters in Dortmund."
I did not claim that there are no idiots in Germany at all. These demonstrators are just a tiny fraction of the population, and is not representative of the overll attitude of 'lets work together'.
Indeed it seems to me that your answer is a good example of the "adversarial approach".
The longer this pandemic goes on the more the situation in the UK saddens me, compared to the situation in Germany. And I am not referring to case numbers or the numbers of deaths etc.
It seems that the British approach is very adversarial. A simple example is a teachers union demanding xyz or they will instruct their members not to go to school on 1st June. And this was on Saturday morning, so 36 hours before Johnson's speech, but when it was known thathe would hold on. I don't want to point the finger at teachers here. I'm not just slagging of unions, beacause I have seen similar attitudes from journalists and many other vested interest groups from different sides of the political spectrum.
I just dislike this threatening attitude, which hinders in the long run. Of course teachers and teachers' unions have genuine concerns they need to raise, but threats and ultimatums on a national level are not helpful. In Germany for the most part, and certainly in the education sector, the vested interests want to help. They are prepared to make a go of returning to school despite having a new timetable each week, despite having complex one-way-systems in the corridors and the pupils not being allowed in the school common room/yard at break times. The school directors work within the guidelines set by the state education dept, and work with the teachers to get something workable for their own school. And again this different attitude is not just in schools, it seems to be accross much of the German society.
Much of it setting-out-the-chairs rhetoric. This is why activists get upset when they find out that both sides actually co-operate. "You can't go round *talking* to x, they are the enemy".
For example, the teaching unions have and are meeting with the government (at all levels from local to UK) to discuss the results of various trials and plans for how to partially re-open schools. N rounds of dealing with various issues etc.
Why are we surprised though? Our entire legal system is adversarial. Our entire political system is adversarial. Of course our society is going to reflect that.
Wales appears to be doing particularly poorly, with a markedly higher infection rate and markedly lower testing rate than the other countries, which could suggest the real infection rate is even higher. Scotland and England much of a wash except for deaths - with England ahead - but as its a lagging indicator and it is believed Scotland lags England that may narrow over the next couple of weeks.
I have used it for a long time , has been posted several times on site over last few weeks. It is where I get my data from when I check your fake numbers fibs about Scotland
You should scroll further down - it shows nearly half Scottish COVID deaths are in Care Homes.
1. He looked and sounded fine. We can cease worrying about his health.
2. I have no problem with the "Stay Home" to "Stay Alert" message change. To me the meaning is obvious. Get out and about a bit more if you wish but keep to distancing and elevated hygiene.
3. The overall vibe is of a government not in control. They are in the dark about the virus and unsure how to proceed. There is no confidence we can open up without a second spike and many many deaths. The "plan" therefore is to encourage baby steps and watch the numbers with fingers crossed.
Watch out - that's just what I've been saying so maybe you'll be accused of being a Tory loyalist now
Mr. Malmesbury, there was some posted here (I think) a few days ago.
Wish I could be confident of remembering the stats but I think it was something like 37% currently working from home and around 10% being the normal proportion. Can't say I have confidence in remembering it accurately, though.
The only ONS information I could find related to pre-lockdown numbers.
37% seems staggeringly high to me - in terms of it being 250%+ higher than pre-lockdown. Perhaps it is an example of what can be done if you *must*.
If you add in the proportion of the workforce that is still working at their place of work - food, telecoms, power etc - that would mean that at least half the working population is at work. I would not be surprised by 60% overall.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Pasty taxes on fire outside the local Greggs. I watched clarifications ... glitter ... in the dark near Westminster Hall. All those moments will be lost in time, like a breaking ticker on Sky News. Time to die.
Mr. Battery, you could just as easily caricature PB Anti-Tories as being full of mindless criticism at everything said.
It might just be better to try and take as fair and balanced a view as possible, raising debating points and questions relevant to a given topic rather than seek to paint those who don't share your view as mindless herd animals without actually explaining why you disagree with them.
There is an important distinction to be made Mr Dancer, between "Anti-Tories", and "Anti-Boris-Johnson-and Dominic-Cumming's-Tories". The latter camp I fall in. The former I do not, although it can be argued that the former has been largely taken over in hostile merger by the latter.
My view, is that the government has done some good things (so-far) on business support, though most goes no further than every other European country. Their management from the health perspective, and general communications, has been nothing short of a joke. This is a reflection of the collection (with the exception of Gove) of lightweights and inexperienced yes-men that have been put in place so they do not in anyway threaten the inept PM. They will need to be held to account.
This is the most amateurish government I can ever recall in my lifetime.
Some of the failings here are by civil servants. Some are failures of basic administration. Government ministers should have spotted them, of course.
As Mrs T once said, I believe, "Advisors advise, ministers decide". Unfortunately this set of ministers, including the PM do not have the experience or guts or common sense to decide. The evidence is in the shocking numbers. I said earlier we are a global laughing stock. Actually it is worse than that, the world feels sorry for us.
I have not seen any indication that we are a global laughing stock, nor that the world feels sorry for us. Might be a good idea to take your bias goggles off and look at the facts, not just the bare figures:
The U.K. has a population density of 280 people per km2 France has a population density of 102 people per km2 Spain has a population density of 97 people per km2
Know what that means? That means, ( according to figures from google today) the U.K., despite having nearly 3 times (275%) the population density of France and (289%) that of Spain, has death figures which are only 8% more than France and 7.5% more than Spain.
I am happy to admit I have a bias: I thoroughly despise populism and nationalism as typified by Johnson and Trump. Theirs' and their followers' state of mind is characterised by absurd selectivity of facts combined with insularity and general unquestioning stupidity . Johnson's government has fucked up big time to the cost of tens of thousands of families. Your bias googles clearly prevent you from seeing the obvious. Your blind faith and trust in the Clown would be touching in less worrisome times.
Mr. Malmesbury, there was some posted here (I think) a few days ago.
Wish I could be confident of remembering the stats but I think it was something like 37% currently working from home and around 10% being the normal proportion. Can't say I have confidence in remembering it accurately, though.
The only ONS information I could find related to pre-lockdown numbers.
37% seems staggeringly high to me - in terms of it being 250%+ higher than pre-lockdown. Perhaps it is an example of what can be done if you *must*.
If you add in the proportion of the workforce that is still working at their place of work - food, telecoms, power etc - that would mean that at least half the working population is at work. I would not be surprised by 60% overall.
There are differences in working form home. A huge % of Local Authority staff are working from home, but lots of them are not really working
@CarlottaVance Still struggling to find proof re your lies on care homes I see, I presume the numbers do not support your claims on several previous threads.
You're ok with more than half your deaths in care homes?
Where does it say in there that more people died in Scottish Care Homes than English ones. Trying to change the subject with your latest questions is just crass. Of course I am not happy with anyone dying of Covid anywhere but obviously the most likely place would be care homes where you have captive audience and majority have major illnesses so very susceptible. You nastily tried to say more people died in Scottish Care Homes than England just to rubbish Scotland and fit your prejudices which was an OUT and OUT lie, now you try to obfuscate rather than admitting you made an error of judgement.
I wrote Scotland appears* to be having a worse Care Home COVID pandemic than England - and with nearly half Scottish deaths in Care Homes vs a third in England do you not think that's a reasonable question?
Or do you dispute the facts?
Care Homes have been a disaster across the British Isles - even in jurisdictions that have handled COVID well.
* As with all of this we won't know the true answer for years - we've got to work with the imperfect data we have.
As we both know the care home position in both countries has been horrific and not handled well, whether that is down to government or the private care home owners is debateable, personally I think some of them have been negligent as they did not want to spend cash on PPE etc whereas others were well prepared from an early stage. For me the decisions years ago to get rid of public care homes and encourage private piracy was a big mistake.
SITE NEWS: At some stage in the next few days the new IPhone/Android friendly version of PB will start operating for those who access the site on their mobiles. Hopefully this will provide a better experience
@CarlottaVance Still struggling to find proof re your lies on care homes I see, I presume the numbers do not support your claims on several previous threads.
You're ok with more than half your deaths in care homes?
Where does it say in there that more people died in Scottish Care Homes than English ones. Trying to change the subject with your latest questions is just crass. Of course I am not happy with anyone dying of Covid anywhere but obviously the most likely place would be care homes where you have captive audience and majority have major illnesses so very susceptible. You nastily tried to say more people died in Scottish Care Homes than England just to rubbish Scotland and fit your prejudices which was an OUT and OUT lie, now you try to obfuscate rather than admitting you made an error of judgement.
I wrote Scotland appears* to be having a worse Care Home COVID pandemic than England - and with nearly half Scottish deaths in Care Homes vs a third in England do you not think that's a reasonable question?
Or do you dispute the facts?
Care Homes have been a disaster across the British Isles - even in jurisdictions that have handled COVID well.
* As with all of this we won't know the true answer for years - we've got to work with the imperfect data we have.
As we both know the care home position in both countries has been horrific and not handled well, whether that is down to government or the private care home owners is debateable, personally I think some of them have been negligent as they did not want to spend cash on PPE etc whereas others were well prepared from an early stage. For me the decisions years ago to get rid of public care homes and encourage private piracy was a big mistake.
The original failure was by health authorities to send patients back to care homes without testing them for the virus first. It happened in all four nations. It's why there's so many care home deaths but community deaths are falling.
The latest bit of cronyism by the government in the Covid-19 crisis is that Dido Harding (she of TalkTalk data scandal fame, and wife of Tory MP John Penrose) has been put in charge of the new App !
The IT community is going nuts! It is going to be Dyson and the ventilators all over again.
You do know that precisely no public money was given to Dyson, and they spent a couple of dozen million of their own resources on the project?
The latest bit of cronyism by the government in the Covid-19 crisis is that Dido Harding (she of TalkTalk data scandal fame, and wife of Tory MP John Penrose) has been put in charge of the new App !
The IT community is going nuts! It is going to be Dyson and the ventilators all over again.
You do know that precisely no public money was given to Dyson, and they spent a couple of dozen million of their own resources on the project?
Having spent my career in medical technology I can tell you that public money or no, it was a big unnecessary distraction. The government would have been better focusing on dozens of other areas rather than trying to give their cronies a PR coup for an area that they have zero competence in.
Not really working yet in Chrome or Opera on android 9 (moto g7). Clicking a story to bring up the comments just refreshes the page so you get threaders but no comments.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
Yep. Massive problem. With opposition parties and the unions playing holier-than-thou to further their own ends with no care whatsoever for the public finances - which are properly screwed.
What Johnson has shut down, he will have the devil's own job opening up.
Given reluctance of people to go back to work, opposition opportunism, social distancing rules and the extension of the furlough, a v shaped recovery is a mirage. Not only is debt ballooning but the deficit is opening up like the grand canyon. A size of deficit barely imaginable, and I daresay, almost impossible to recover.
I think we should look at our last calculation of the hock we are in, and add a nought.
Agreed. What can this populist government do? Opposition parties and unions are going to make hay with "nasty Tories" narrative, uncaring of the damage THEY are doing to our country by mischief-making in this way. The government should use its majority to make the decisions needed to get us out of this mess. But they lack the balls to be unpopular.
Out political system can`t cope with this. The end game may have to be some sort of national unity government.
The endgame will be the fall of Johnson and his replacement by someone who can weather a bad headline or two. Its coming sooner than everybody thinks.
The economic numbers are going to be just insane.
The stage is already set for this. The current “mainstream” criticism is that HMG cares more about money than people’s lives and that’s why they want to lift the lockdown. However, when the economic reckoning comes along the blame will also go to HMG for not locking down early enough.
There’s no easy answers to anything in this current situation.
What's the government's response? Delay the reckoning until September at even vaster expense.
After all, something might, you know, turn up......
Some of my friends want lockdown to continue until we have a vaccine, even if that takes years. Any lifting of the lockdown is considered Boris risking the lives of people in the name of the economy...
Yes - exactly - that`s the narrative. Let my guess though - I bet these friends assume they will continue to receive cash from the government for the whole period?
For sure shortly lockdown will be personal decision , government cannot pay everybody for very much longer, unless it is unemployment benefit. Fact of life unfortunately.
The latest bit of cronyism by the government in the Covid-19 crisis is that Dido Harding (she of TalkTalk data scandal fame, and wife of Tory MP John Penrose) has been put in charge of the new App !
The IT community is going nuts! It is going to be Dyson and the ventilators all over again.
You do know that precisely no public money was given to Dyson, and they spent a couple of dozen million of their own resources on the project?
Having spent my career in medical technology I can tell you that public money or no, it was a big unnecessary distraction. The government would have been better focusing on dozens of other areas rather than trying to give their cronies a PR coup for an area that they have zero competence in.
And yet Mercedes formula one team who also have no medical tech competence came up trumps. Casting a wide net was a good thing, the whole scheme was a huge success. Nitpicking over it shows that you clearly don't care about the result and would rather see the country fail because your hated politicians would fail with it.
The latest bit of cronyism by the government in the Covid-19 crisis is that Dido Harding (she of TalkTalk data scandal fame, and wife of Tory MP John Penrose) has been put in charge of the new App !
The IT community is going nuts! It is going to be Dyson and the ventilators all over again.
You do know that precisely no public money was given to Dyson, and they spent a couple of dozen million of their own resources on the project?
Those pesky facts again.
I refer you to the answer I have just given. Pesky fact that the government overlooked in its desperation to give PR to its cronies was that Dyson makes vacuum cleaners and knows fuck all about medical devices. Fact.
@CarlottaVance Still struggling to find proof re your lies on care homes I see, I presume the numbers do not support your claims on several previous threads.
You're ok with more than half your deaths in care homes?
Where does it say in there that more people died in Scottish Care Homes than English ones. Trying to change the subject with your latest questions is just crass. Of course I am not happy with anyone dying of Covid anywhere but obviously the most likely place would be care homes where you have captive audience and majority have major illnesses so very susceptible. You nastily tried to say more people died in Scottish Care Homes than England just to rubbish Scotland and fit your prejudices which was an OUT and OUT lie, now you try to obfuscate rather than admitting you made an error of judgement.
I wrote Scotland appears* to be having a worse Care Home COVID pandemic than England - and with nearly half Scottish deaths in Care Homes vs a third in England do you not think that's a reasonable question?
Or do you dispute the facts?
Care Homes have been a disaster across the British Isles - even in jurisdictions that have handled COVID well.
* As with all of this we won't know the true answer for years - we've got to work with the imperfect data we have.
As we both know the care home position in both countries has been horrific and not handled well, whether that is down to government or the private care home owners is debateable, personally I think some of them have been negligent as they did not want to spend cash on PPE etc whereas others were well prepared from an early stage. For me the decisions years ago to get rid of public care homes and encourage private piracy was a big mistake.
The original failure was by health authorities to send patients back to care homes without testing them for the virus first. It happened in all four nations. It's why there's so many care home deaths but community deaths are falling.
Its a reason but not the only reason and its been stopped thankfully.
Community transmission also raises the risk of care staff getting the disease and bringing it in with them. The elderly who are capable to live at home can shield but the elderly in homes with dementia potentially have dozens of visitors daily coming and going in the care home staff - and they need that support. And you can't get people with dementia in their own home (which is what a care home is) to socially distance either, they both need the support and don't understand or remember what the virus is.
1. He looked and sounded fine. We can cease worrying about his health.
2. I have no problem with the "Stay Home" to "Stay Alert" message change. To me the meaning is obvious. Get out and about a bit more if you wish but keep to distancing and elevated hygiene.
3. The overall vibe is of a government not in control. They are in the dark about the virus and unsure how to proceed. There is no confidence we can open up without a second spike and many many deaths. The "plan" therefore is to encourage baby steps and watch the numbers with fingers crossed.
Watch out - that's just what I've been saying so maybe you'll be accused of being a Tory loyalist now
Both sound like deluded teenagers with a Boris crush
The latest bit of cronyism by the government in the Covid-19 crisis is that Dido Harding (she of TalkTalk data scandal fame, and wife of Tory MP John Penrose) has been put in charge of the new App !
The IT community is going nuts! It is going to be Dyson and the ventilators all over again.
You do know that precisely no public money was given to Dyson, and they spent a couple of dozen million of their own resources on the project?
Those pesky facts again.
I refer you to the answer I have just given. Pesky fact that the government overlooked in its desperation to give PR to its cronies was that Dyson makes vacuum cleaners and knows fuck all about medical devices. Fact.
So what?
McLaren make vehicles and know fuck all about medical devices. They've been able to make a large number of them.
1. He looked and sounded fine. We can cease worrying about his health.
2. I have no problem with the "Stay Home" to "Stay Alert" message change. To me the meaning is obvious. Get out and about a bit more if you wish but keep to distancing and elevated hygiene.
3. The overall vibe is of a government not in control. They are in the dark about the virus and unsure how to proceed. There is no confidence we can open up without a second spike and many many deaths. The "plan" therefore is to encourage baby steps and watch the numbers with fingers crossed.
Watch out - that's just what I've been saying so maybe you'll be accused of being a Tory loyalist now
That's just about what I've been thinking so goodness knows what I'll be accused of.
Personally, it isn't a problem. I just ease off a bit but still take care and use my common sense. Those who have businesses to run and staff to consider have my sympathy. What are they supposed to be doing now?
The latest bit of cronyism by the government in the Covid-19 crisis is that Dido Harding (she of TalkTalk data scandal fame, and wife of Tory MP John Penrose) has been put in charge of the new App !
The IT community is going nuts! It is going to be Dyson and the ventilators all over again.
You do know that precisely no public money was given to Dyson, and they spent a couple of dozen million of their own resources on the project?
Having spent my career in medical technology I can tell you that public money or no, it was a big unnecessary distraction. The government would have been better focusing on dozens of other areas rather than trying to give their cronies a PR coup for an area that they have zero competence in.
They did - by running several ideas for ventilators in parallel, they increased the chance that one of them would produce something workable.
Which is exactly what happened, a team lead by Mercedes-Benz High Performance Powertrains in Brixworth made a CPAP device - a design which they have open sourced - instead of their usual job of making engines for Lewis Hamilton's racing cars.
Your constant criticism of Dyson is more related to James Dyson's stance on Brexit, than anything to do with ventilators.
@DavidL that’s all well and good but when the Police are going to be given more powers to arbitrarily impose even greater fines, its only those who are unlucky who are going to be punished.
I would suggest only those being stupid. Like having a house party with multiple guests or large scale BBQs with people swirling about in close proximity. I find it genuinely bizarre that people want government to micro-manage their lives like this. Do people really think (a) that is appropriate and (b) that makes them safe?
Of course here in Scotland our FM still thinks that she does know best. Sigh.
Worst case she knows a lot more about position in Scotland than Boris.
Then why does she say;
1) The R number in Scotland is still too high to end lockdown and 2) I can't tell you what the R number is?
The R number is also too high in England and the folks there don't know the precise number either. So it's a reflection of Sturgeon's greater caution.
It's possible R is one or two tenths of a point higher in Scotland than England, but it's within the margin of error. In any case it is close to 1 and the possibility of the epidemic growing exponentially again if lockdown is eased.
The by death date hospital deaths figure is probably the best proxy for R in England, that number is falling by 30% WoW, which implies a community R of well below 1. I can imagine in care homes it's probably close to or above 1 though. That's not a reason to keep the whole country locked up for another 3 weeks.
What I think is happening is that London saw a massive increase in infections and deaths subsequently a big fall and that this is skewing English statistics. I am guessing if you compare English regions with Scotland, it is probably quite similar.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
Because, Phil me old mucker, actions taken as a result of thinking for yourself might be illegal in this new phase. And the police are about to have greater powers to sanction you if so.
I would be opposed to the Police getting involved unless something is egregious and clearly illegal.
Ahhh grasshopper. You are edging towards why we are so interested in all this. There is a new phase, I get it. We might be allowed to do more than previously, we'll wait to see the legislation. And when there is legislation the police will be empowered to enforce it. I would be interested to hear the legal distinction between egregious and illegal but I suspect you don't know it. Neither do I. Hence we need the law to tell us, and the police because it's not the police's job to take your advice about when they should get involved.
So hahaha one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks all a big joke for many PB-ers happily sitting with their families in big houses.
But for many people, perhaps some without the wherewithal to go to the primary legislation, this shit matters. It is the difference between things which will help or hinder their sanity.
Again what is the law and what is the advice are not the same thing. Nor should they be. The law should be what is egregious and that should be what the Police get involved in.
So one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks etc - I would be amazed if any of that is in the law. Exercising twice a day wasn't and quite right too.
The law and the advice are not the same thing nor should they be.
I couldn't agree more. As I have said since yesterday at 7.14pm we will wait to see what the SI says as amended or replaced.
But just as @MaxPB took from the briefing that he will be able to go to sit in the park with his friend, so did the PM make clear that the police will have stronger powers to deal with lawbreakers.
So we will wait to see what the law says. It might set a limit on the number of people allowed to congregate (I note that the govt included basketball as a sport which would be ok to take part in...with members of your family...wtf...). Or it might not and it might allow the guidance to do the heavy lifting.
Whatever the law says, whatever the guidance says, however, what we will not be able to do is to think for ourselves. As the one/two parent gathering conundrum has illustrated.
I'm glad we're agreed.
Power to deal with lawbreakers is quite right but only with lawbreakers. And lawbreakers doesn't (nor should it) necessarily mean everyone breaking "advice".
To make another driving analogy the Highway Code includes a lot of "you must do ..." and a lot of "you should do ..." for different scenarios. EG for driving in wet weather it says you should leave a bigger gap between cars in wet weather. That is sound advice and quite right too. While saying you need to keep to the left is a must so it is the law and the Police can get involved if you don't.
Not all cases of should ought to be must in the law.
Indeed or the mother of all advice which is not law: Don't drink and drive.
What we can't do when we drink and drive, though, is think for ourselves. It is a very clearly defined limit to blood alcohol levels. You might think you are the safest driver on earth after a bottle of Proper Twelve but the law would say otherwise.
Absolutely as I said the law should deal with what is egregious.
If you want to drink and drive and be under the limit you need to think for yourself how to do that. There is no answer to "can I drink a pint and drive" or "can I drink two pints and drive" which is what the media are blathering on about with all these hypotheticals expecting set answers to every question they can come up with.
Take golf as an example, lots of people were pleased when told they can play again. The message this morning is that is only on your own or with a member of your household (we shall have to wait for the law)
Are courses going to allow people to play together in a 3 or 4 ball? Or a 2 ball with people unlikely to live together (perhaps known to the organisers not to live together). If not there will be very few times available and most people will have to play on their own so most wont get to play. Courses might even decide not to open if they can only get 30% their normal capacity playing, further reducing the chance to play.
There is far less chance of catching covid playing socially distance golf with others, than there is staying socially distanced in a park. Its bound to be a factor well over 10x, probably 100x as you dont come anywhere near anyone for most of the day. There is no logic in the advise.
Its not hypothetical at all, or something I can use my own judgment on, courses will have to follow it if its law and will be under very strong media pressure to if its advice. So in reality people who were pleased to be told they could play by the PM will now find out they cant.
"we hope people will act on this week" does not mean "you must go to work tomorrow" either.
First step is employers need to do risk assessments and then they need to contact their employees. Unlikely that will all be done before Wednesday anyway unless they were already working on it.
Of course employers have been working on it. I have been working on it. We have not closed our labs and test facilities, but we have significantly reduced the number pf people in them because of social distancing. We have done this since March We have also:
Staggered starting times Marked the floor like we are Tescos Added PPE Listened to employees (a lot) put up a lot of signs Changed a lot of procedures Closed a lot of desks Introduced a lot of booking systems for equipment Put a huge amount of wipes and gels and all that around the place Implemented cross-team lists of tasks which can be done by whoever is in, people working for other managers etc. Plus many more things
In short we ave changed a lot, in a short time, flexibily and IMHO very effectively. We are not anywhere near full efficiency, but we have in suymmary just GOT ON WITH IT - as i say, since March.
I despair at the can't do attitude i see so much of this morning, and marvel at who these businesses are who "need clear guidance". Failing whelk stalls presumably.
A lot is possible with a clear head and some determination. the Pestons of this world who moan that it's all doom, all unclear and nothing is possible can frankly do one. Grrrr
It's going really well for those fabled comms experts brought in from Vote Leave.
That's the intention of the policy though, it was announced that people could now travel to other areas for recreation as long as they maintain social distancing. The police in those areas are annoyed that they will lose whatever stasi like powers they've had.
The winding down of the furlough scheme is by far the most important point to have emerged over the last 24 hours. The implications are multiple and huge from both a political and economic perspective. This is what we should all be talking about and trying to understand more. Here are a few observations and questions: 1. A lot of businesses are going to have to start making some very tough decsions soon. 2. The likelihood is that this will lead to a lot of people losing their jobs and, therefore, their incomes. 3. Where do the replacement jobs come from and over what timescale? 4. Who will be affected most by this and in what parts of the country? 5. Does this lead to fundamental reform of the welfare system - and quickly? 6. A transition extension is clearly not going to happen, but what impact is this going to have in practical terms - it seems likely to mean, at a minimum, higher prices in the shops? I am sure there are penty of other things to consider, too.
It's going really well for those fabled comms experts brought in from Vote Leave.
Very parachocial of South Lakes police. No everyone won't be flooding to the Lake District but we are in this together as a nation so perhaps they should drop the I'm alright Jack attitude.
The latest bit of cronyism by the government in the Covid-19 crisis is that Dido Harding (she of TalkTalk data scandal fame, and wife of Tory MP John Penrose) has been put in charge of the new App !
The IT community is going nuts! It is going to be Dyson and the ventilators all over again.
You do know that precisely no public money was given to Dyson, and they spent a couple of dozen million of their own resources on the project?
Having spent my career in medical technology I can tell you that public money or no, it was a big unnecessary distraction. The government would have been better focusing on dozens of other areas rather than trying to give their cronies a PR coup for an area that they have zero competence in.
And yet Mercedes formula one team who also have no medical tech competence came up trumps. Casting a wide net was a good thing, the whole scheme was a huge success. Nitpicking over it shows that you clearly don't care about the result and would rather see the country fail because your hated politicians would fail with it.
Sorry to correct you, but McLaren has been involved in adaptations for medical devices for the last decade to my recollection. Dyson makes vacuum cleaners. JCB makes diggers. Medical device companies make medical devices. It was a PR stunt for cronies at best, or a level of stupidity at worst. take your pick.
Wales appears to be doing particularly poorly, with a markedly higher infection rate and markedly lower testing rate than the other countries, which could suggest the real infection rate is even higher. Scotland and England much of a wash except for deaths - with England ahead - but as its a lagging indicator and it is believed Scotland lags England that may narrow over the next couple of weeks.
I have used it for a long time , has been posted several times on site over last few weeks. It is where I get my data from when I check your fake numbers fibs about Scotland
You should scroll further down - it shows nearly half Scottish COVID deaths are in Care Homes.
I have seen the numbers, that still does not make them higher than the deaths in England, just that they are terrible but what you would expect given the clientele. I would expect to see similar picture in many other countries as well. Your glee that the numbers were so high in Scotland is very unnerving.
The latest bit of cronyism by the government in the Covid-19 crisis is that Dido Harding (she of TalkTalk data scandal fame, and wife of Tory MP John Penrose) has been put in charge of the new App !
The IT community is going nuts! It is going to be Dyson and the ventilators all over again.
You do know that precisely no public money was given to Dyson, and they spent a couple of dozen million of their own resources on the project?
Having spent my career in medical technology I can tell you that public money or no, it was a big unnecessary distraction. The government would have been better focusing on dozens of other areas rather than trying to give their cronies a PR coup for an area that they have zero competence in.
The longer this pandemic goes on the more the situation in the UK saddens me, compared to the situation in Germany. And I am not referring to case numbers or the numbers of deaths etc.
It seems that the British approach is very adversarial. A simple example is a teachers union demanding xyz or they will instruct their members not to go to school on 1st June. And this was on Saturday morning, so 36 hours before Johnson's speech, but when it was known thathe would hold on. I don't want to point the finger at teachers here. I'm not just slagging of unions, beacause I have seen similar attitudes from journalists and many other vested interest groups from different sides of the political spectrum.
I just dislike this threatening attitude, which hinders in the long run. Of course teachers and teachers' unions have genuine concerns they need to raise, but threats and ultimatums on a national level are not helpful. In Germany for the most part, and certainly in the education sector, the vested interests want to help. They are prepared to make a go of returning to school despite having a new timetable each week, despite having complex one-way-systems in the corridors and the pupils not being allowed in the school common room/yard at break times. The school directors work within the guidelines set by the state education dept, and work with the teachers to get something workable for their own school. And again this different attitude is not just in schools, it seems to be accross much of the German society.
I remember listening to a really good Freakonomics episode about unions / employee representations panels in many companies in Germany.
There was consensus of the experts they had on was in general they worked well as it was less us vs them. The guiding principles were more about the company succeeding & plenty of examples of acceptance of things like lower pay to make a business work.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
Because, Phil me old mucker, actions taken as a result of thinking for yourself might be illegal in this new phase. And the police are about to have greater powers to sanction you if so.
I would be opposed to the Police getting involved unless something is egregious and clearly illegal.
Ahhh grasshopper. You are edging towards why we are so interested in all this. There is a new phase, I get it. We might be allowed to do more than previously, we'll wait to see the legislation. And when there is legislation the police will be empowered to enforce it. I would be interested to hear the legal distinction between egregious and illegal but I suspect you don't know it. Neither do I. Hence we need the law to tell us, and the police because it's not the police's job to take your advice about when they should get involved.
So hahaha one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks all a big joke for many PB-ers happily sitting with their families in big houses.
But for many people, perhaps some without the wherewithal to go to the primary legislation, this shit matters. It is the difference between things which will help or hinder their sanity.
Again what is the law and what is the advice are not the same thing. Nor should they be. The law should be what is egregious and that should be what the Police get involved in.
So one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks etc - I would be amazed if any of that is in the law. Exercising twice a day wasn't and quite right too.
The law and the advice are not the same thing nor should they be.
I couldn't agree more. As I have said since yesterday at 7.14pm we will wait to see what the SI says as amended or replaced.
But just as @MaxPB took from the briefing that he will be able to go to sit in the park with his friend, so did the PM make clear that the police will have stronger powers to deal with lawbreakers.
So we will wait to see what the law says. It might set a limit on the number of people allowed to congregate (I note that the govt included basketball as a sport which would be ok to take part in...with members of your family...wtf...). Or it might not and it might allow the guidance to do the heavy lifting.
Whatever the law says, whatever the guidance says, however, what we will not be able to do is to think for ourselves. As the one/two parent gathering conundrum has illustrated.
I'm glad we're agreed.
Power to deal with lawbreakers is quite right but only with lawbreakers. And lawbreakers doesn't (nor should it) necessarily mean everyone breaking "advice".
To make another driving analogy the Highway Code includes a lot of "you must do ..." and a lot of "you should do ..." for different scenarios. EG for driving in wet weather it says you should leave a bigger gap between cars in wet weather. That is sound advice and quite right too. While saying you need to keep to the left is a must so it is the law and the Police can get involved if you don't.
Not all cases of should ought to be must in the law.
The problem is Philip, is that even if the government does the complete opposite of what you’ve just suggested (which I agree with), you’ll still defend it.
No I won't!
I am not a party loyalist. I defend what I believe in and criticise what I oppose. When the government does illiberal nonsense that goes against my beliefs I criticise it. And I've criticised it at times during the epidemic too.
But I'm glad you agree with what I wrote.
Quite amazing that you think everything the Tories have done has been perfect mind you.
@DavidL that’s all well and good but when the Police are going to be given more powers to arbitrarily impose even greater fines, its only those who are unlucky who are going to be punished.
I would suggest only those being stupid. Like having a house party with multiple guests or large scale BBQs with people swirling about in close proximity. I find it genuinely bizarre that people want government to micro-manage their lives like this. Do people really think (a) that is appropriate and (b) that makes them safe?
Of course here in Scotland our FM still thinks that she does know best. Sigh.
Worst case she knows a lot more about position in Scotland than Boris.
Then why does she say;
1) The R number in Scotland is still too high to end lockdown and 2) I can't tell you what the R number is?
The R number is also too high in England and the folks there don't know the precise number either. So it's a reflection of Sturgeon's greater caution.
It's possible R is one or two tenths of a point higher in Scotland than England, but it's within the margin of error. In any case it is close to 1 and the possibility of the epidemic growing exponentially again if lockdown is eased.
The by death date hospital deaths figure is probably the best proxy for R in England, that number is falling by 30% WoW, which implies a community R of well below 1. I can imagine in care homes it's probably close to or above 1 though. That's not a reason to keep the whole country locked up for another 3 weeks.
What I think is happening is that London saw a massive increase in infections and deaths subsequently a big fall and that this is skewing English statistics. I am guessing if you compare English regions with Scotland, it is probably quite similar.
The death rate is falling in all regions, but yes London has had the largest fall followed by the Midlands. Either way the point still stands, the community transmission rate is probably quite a bit below 1 but the care home transmission rate is probably a bit above one. We should maintain a L5 lockdown in care homes and put measures in place such as decontamination showers on entry/exit for staff to limit crossover but we should pursue the L3 measures in the wider community. At ~150 deaths per day (and falling by 30% per week) in the whole of England I think it's feasible to do that.
The latest bit of cronyism by the government in the Covid-19 crisis is that Dido Harding (she of TalkTalk data scandal fame, and wife of Tory MP John Penrose) has been put in charge of the new App !
The IT community is going nuts! It is going to be Dyson and the ventilators all over again.
You do know that precisely no public money was given to Dyson, and they spent a couple of dozen million of their own resources on the project?
Having spent my career in medical technology I can tell you that public money or no, it was a big unnecessary distraction. The government would have been better focusing on dozens of other areas rather than trying to give their cronies a PR coup for an area that they have zero competence in.
And yet Mercedes formula one team who also have no medical tech competence came up trumps. Casting a wide net was a good thing, the whole scheme was a huge success. Nitpicking over it shows that you clearly don't care about the result and would rather see the country fail because your hated politicians would fail with it.
Sorry to correct you, but McLaren has been involved in adaptations for medical devices for the last decade to my recollection. Dyson makes vacuum cleaners. JCB makes diggers. Medical device companies make medical devices. It was a PR stunt for cronies at best, or a level of stupidity at worst. take your pick.
It's going really well for those fabled comms experts brought in from Vote Leave.
Very parachocial of South Lakes police. No everyone won't be flooding to the Lake District but we are in this together as a nation so perhaps they should drop the I'm alright Jack attitude.
I am not confident that you know where the lake District is
Mr. Malmesbury, there was some posted here (I think) a few days ago.
Wish I could be confident of remembering the stats but I think it was something like 37% currently working from home and around 10% being the normal proportion. Can't say I have confidence in remembering it accurately, though.
The only ONS information I could find related to pre-lockdown numbers.
37% seems staggeringly high to me - in terms of it being 250%+ higher than pre-lockdown. Perhaps it is an example of what can be done if you *must*.
If you add in the proportion of the workforce that is still working at their place of work - food, telecoms, power etc - that would mean that at least half the working population is at work. I would not be surprised by 60% overall.
There are differences in working form home. A huge % of Local Authority staff are working from home, but lots of them are not really working
{sarcasm} So no difference from usual AND/OR the world is a safer place? {/sarcasm}
The latest bit of cronyism by the government in the Covid-19 crisis is that Dido Harding (she of TalkTalk data scandal fame, and wife of Tory MP John Penrose) has been put in charge of the new App !
The IT community is going nuts! It is going to be Dyson and the ventilators all over again.
You do know that precisely no public money was given to Dyson, and they spent a couple of dozen million of their own resources on the project?
I think you miss the point, picking one of your donors to lead something rather than using experts who know what they are doing , and repeating yet again is pretty crass and stupid.
Now they are saying golf has to be on your own or with one member of your household.
How on earth is that consistent with the take responsibility yourselves message?
I can meet someone in a park and stay 2m away.
I cant meet someone in a park with 18 tiny holes in and stay 2m away.
Stop making up silly rules and let us decide on our common sense.
The absurdity of it is that, if you meet someone in a park with 18 tiny holes and don't stay 2m away, you are likely to find yourself in an ambulance (or hearse) after being struck by a piece of metal moving at 100mph. So people don't even need to be told, we did social distancing before the term was invented.
The longer this pandemic goes on the more the situation in the UK saddens me, compared to the situation in Germany. And I am not referring to case numbers or the numbers of deaths etc.
It seems that the British approach is very adversarial. A simple example is a teachers union demanding xyz or they will instruct their members not to go to school on 1st June. And this was on Saturday morning, so 36 hours before Johnson's speech, but when it was known thathe would hold on. I don't want to point the finger at teachers here. I'm not just slagging of unions, beacause I have seen similar attitudes from journalists and many other vested interest groups from different sides of the political spectrum.
I just dislike this threatening attitude, which hinders in the long run. Of course teachers and teachers' unions have genuine concerns they need to raise, but threats and ultimatums on a national level are not helpful. In Germany for the most part, and certainly in the education sector, the vested interests want to help. They are prepared to make a go of returning to school despite having a new timetable each week, despite having complex one-way-systems in the corridors and the pupils not being allowed in the school common room/yard at break times. The school directors work within the guidelines set by the state education dept, and work with the teachers to get something workable for their own school. And again this different attitude is not just in schools, it seems to be accross much of the German society.
A very sound post. Unfortunately our society went into this more than normally divided because of the B word. People who feel strongly about that will give this government no credit no matter what they do. Its unfortunate but its where we are.
One thing I wonder if you could help with. The BBC was running stories all day yesterday claiming that the relaxation of the lockdown had resulted in a surge of new cases in Germany. Is this true? I can see no sign of this in the Worldometer numbers but they are far from perfect. The number of active cases seems to be falling and the number of new cases seems to be on a downward trend, as far as we can tell from the reported figures. Do you know what the basis of the BBC story was?
The latest bit of cronyism by the government in the Covid-19 crisis is that Dido Harding (she of TalkTalk data scandal fame, and wife of Tory MP John Penrose) has been put in charge of the new App !
The IT community is going nuts! It is going to be Dyson and the ventilators all over again.
You do know that precisely no public money was given to Dyson, and they spent a couple of dozen million of their own resources on the project?
Having spent my career in medical technology I can tell you that public money or no, it was a big unnecessary distraction. The government would have been better focusing on dozens of other areas rather than trying to give their cronies a PR coup for an area that they have zero competence in.
And yet Mercedes formula one team who also have no medical tech competence came up trumps. Casting a wide net was a good thing, the whole scheme was a huge success. Nitpicking over it shows that you clearly don't care about the result and would rather see the country fail because your hated politicians would fail with it.
Sorry to correct you, but McLaren has been involved in adaptations for medical devices for the last decade to my recollection. Dyson makes vacuum cleaners. JCB makes diggers. Medical device companies make medical devices. It was a PR stunt for cronies at best, or a level of stupidity at worst. take your pick.
But it wasn't McLaren that made the CPAP, it was Mercedes. McLaren made the ventilator trays.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
Because, Phil me old mucker, actions taken as a result of thinking for yourself might be illegal in this new phase. And the police are about to have greater powers to sanction you if so.
I would be opposed to the Police getting involved unless something is egregious and clearly illegal.
Ahhh grasshopper. You are edging towards why we are so interested in all this. There is a new phase, I get it. We might be allowed to do more than previously, we'll wait to see the legislation. And when there is legislation the police will be empowered to enforce it. I would be interested to hear the legal distinction between egregious and illegal but I suspect you don't know it. Neither do I. Hence we need the law to tell us, and the police because it's not the police's job to take your advice about when they should get involved.
So hahaha one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks all a big joke for many PB-ers happily sitting with their families in big houses.
But for many people, perhaps some without the wherewithal to go to the primary legislation, this shit matters. It is the difference between things which will help or hinder their sanity.
Again what is the law and what is the advice are not the same thing. Nor should they be. The law should be what is egregious and that should be what the Police get involved in.
So one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks etc - I would be amazed if any of that is in the law. Exercising twice a day wasn't and quite right too.
The law and the advice are not the same thing nor should they be.
I couldn't agree more. As I have said since yesterday at 7.14pm we will wait to see what the SI says as amended or replaced.
But just as @MaxPB took from the briefing that he will be able to go to sit in the park with his friend, so did the PM make clear that the police will have stronger powers to deal with lawbreakers.
So we will wait to see what the law says. It might set a limit on the number of people allowed to congregate (I note that the govt included basketball as a sport which would be ok to take part in...with members of your family...wtf...). Or it might not and it might allow the guidance to do the heavy lifting.
Whatever the law says, whatever the guidance says, however, what we will not be able to do is to think for ourselves. As the one/two parent gathering conundrum has illustrated.
I'm glad we're agreed.
Power to deal with lawbreakers is quite right but only with lawbreakers. And lawbreakers doesn't (nor should it) necessarily mean everyone breaking "advice".
To make another driving analogy the Highway Code includes a lot of "you must do ..." and a lot of "you should do ..." for different scenarios. EG for driving in wet weather it says you should leave a bigger gap between cars in wet weather. That is sound advice and quite right too. While saying you need to keep to the left is a must so it is the law and the Police can get involved if you don't.
Not all cases of should ought to be must in the law.
Indeed or the mother of all advice which is not law: Don't drink and drive.
What we can't do when we drink and drive, though, is think for ourselves. It is a very clearly defined limit to blood alcohol levels. You might think you are the safest driver on earth after a bottle of Proper Twelve but the law would say otherwise.
Absolutely as I said the law should deal with what is egregious.
If you want to drink and drive and be under the limit you need to think for yourself how to do that. There is no answer to "can I drink a pint and drive" or "can I drink two pints and drive" which is what the media are blathering on about with all these hypotheticals expecting set answers to every question they can come up with.
Take golf as an example, lots of people were pleased when told they can play again. The message this morning is that is only on your own or with a member of your household (we shall have to wait for the law)
Are courses going to allow people to play together in a 3 or 4 ball? Or a 2 ball with people unlikely to live together (perhaps known to the organisers not to live together). If not there will be very few times available and most people will have to play on their own so most wont get to play. Courses might even decide not to open if they can only get 30% their normal capacity playing, further reducing the chance to play.
There is far less chance of catching covid playing socially distance golf with others, than there is staying socially distanced in a park. Its bound to be a factor well over 10x, probably 100x as you dont come anywhere near anyone for most of the day. There is no logic in the advise.
Its not hypothetical at all, or something I can use my own judgment on, courses will have to follow it if its law and will be under very strong media pressure to if its advice. So in reality people who were pleased to be told they could play by the PM will now find out they cant.
Full and comprehensive guidelines have been issued to clubs which talks about 2 balls only with distancing, no putting into holes, no touching flags, bars closed, no on course water and so on. It doesn't reference household members only playing together.
Like other sectors, golf must have got a nod from the goverment as all the England Golf regional organisers were "unfurloughed" last week.
The winding down of the furlough scheme is by far the most important point to have emerged over the last 24 hours. The implications are multiple and huge from both a political and economic perspective. This is what we should all be talking about and trying to understand more. Here are a few observations and questions: 1. A lot of businesses are going to have to start making some very tough decsions soon. 2. The likelihood is that this will lead to a lot of people losing their jobs and, therefore, their incomes. 3. Where do the replacement jobs come from and over what timescale? 4. Who will be affected most by this and in what parts of the country? 5. Does this lead to fundamental reform of the welfare system - and quickly? 6. A transition extension is clearly not going to happen, but what impact is this going to have in practical terms - it seems likely to mean, at a minimum, higher prices in the shops? I am sure there are penty of other things to consider, too.
Has the winding down of the furlough scheme actually been announced?
Since they've confirmed some industries will be kept closed until at least July I can't see it winding down until then.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
Because, Phil me old mucker, actions taken as a result of thinking for yourself might be illegal in this new phase. And the police are about to have greater powers to sanction you if so.
I would be opposed to the Police getting involved unless something is egregious and clearly illegal.
Ahhh grasshopper. You are edging towards why we are so interested in all this. There is a new phase, I get it. We might be allowed to do more than previously, we'll wait to see the legislation. And when there is legislation the police will be empowered to enforce it. I would be interested to hear the legal distinction between egregious and illegal but I suspect you don't know it. Neither do I. Hence we need the law to tell us, and the police because it's not the police's job to take your advice about when they should get involved.
So hahaha one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks all a big joke for many PB-ers happily sitting with their families in big houses.
But for many people, perhaps some without the wherewithal to go to the primary legislation, this shit matters. It is the difference between things which will help or hinder their sanity.
Again what is the law and what is the advice are not the same thing. Nor should they be. The law should be what is egregious and that should be what the Police get involved in.
So one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks etc - I would be amazed if any of that is in the law. Exercising twice a day wasn't and quite right too.
The law and the advice are not the same thing nor should they be.
I couldn't agree more. As I have said since yesterday at 7.14pm we will wait to see what the SI says as amended or replaced.
But just as @MaxPB took from the briefing that he will be able to go to sit in the park with his friend, so did the PM make clear that the police will have stronger powers to deal with lawbreakers.
So we will wait to see what the law says. It might set a limit on the number of people allowed to congregate (I note that the govt included basketball as a sport which would be ok to take part in...with members of your family...wtf...). Or it might not and it might allow the guidance to do the heavy lifting.
Whatever the law says, whatever the guidance says, however, what we will not be able to do is to think for ourselves. As the one/two parent gathering conundrum has illustrated.
I'm glad we're agreed.
Power to deal with lawbreakers is quite right but only with lawbreakers. And lawbreakers doesn't (nor should it) necessarily mean everyone breaking "advice".
To make another driving analogy the Highway Code includes a lot of "you must do ..." and a lot of "you should do ..." for different scenarios. EG for driving in wet weather it says you should leave a bigger gap between cars in wet weather. That is sound advice and quite right too. While saying you need to keep to the left is a must so it is the law and the Police can get involved if you don't.
Not all cases of should ought to be must in the law.
The problem is Philip, is that even if the government does the complete opposite of what you’ve just suggested (which I agree with), you’ll still defend it.
No I won't!
I am not a party loyalist. I defend what I believe in and criticise what I oppose. When the government does illiberal nonsense that goes against my beliefs I criticise it. And I've criticised it at times during the epidemic too.
But I'm glad you agree with what I wrote.
Quite amazing that you think everything the Tories have done has been perfect mind you.
Adding to the Twitter posting diversity, this is an interesting thread on the different types of ventilators that more of us will be on, as the UK government lets the epidemic go out of control.
The good doctor's Covid 19 advice: "Stay the f*** at home and don’t use our inventiveness and ability to cobble together solutions as an excuse for a street party.
Comments
They need a consistent message for a period of time when the instructions will change and not be consistent. This is clearly more difficult than the simpler stay home message.
I can't think of anything better than the ALERT double header.
Of course some people want to remain in lockdown for years. Death is scary. People are afraid. That was the problem with the 'Stay at Home' message which I liked less than 'Stay Alert.'
I'm afraid though that Nanny State cannot protect everyone for ever from this virus. We have to learn to live with it. Some will die. Some people always do. I know.
Life is a series of calculated risks. The one we now have to take involves a degree of personal responsibility which wasn't so acute during Alert Level 5.
But we have to take them.
It seems that the British approach is very adversarial. A simple example is a teachers union demanding xyz or they will instruct their members not to go to school on 1st June. And this was on Saturday morning, so 36 hours before Johnson's speech, but when it was known thathe would hold on. I don't want to point the finger at teachers here. I'm not just slagging of unions, beacause I have seen similar attitudes from journalists and many other vested interest groups from different sides of the political spectrum.
I just dislike this threatening attitude, which hinders in the long run. Of course teachers and teachers' unions have genuine concerns they need to raise, but threats and ultimatums on a national level are not helpful. In Germany for the most part, and certainly in the education sector, the vested interests want to help. They are prepared to make a go of returning to school despite having a new timetable each week, despite having complex one-way-systems in the corridors and the pupils not being allowed in the school common room/yard at break times. The school directors work within the guidelines set by the state education dept, and work with the teachers to get something workable for their own school. And again this different attitude is not just in schools, it seems to be accross much of the German society.
But just as @MaxPB took from the briefing that he will be able to go to sit in the park with his friend, so did the PM make clear that the police will have stronger powers to deal with lawbreakers.
So we will wait to see what the law says. It might set a limit on the number of people allowed to congregate (I note that the govt included basketball as a sport which would be ok to take part in...with members of your family...wtf...). Or it might not and it might allow the guidance to do the heavy lifting.
Whatever the law says, whatever the guidance says, however, what we will not be able to do is to think for ourselves. As the one/two parent gathering conundrum has illustrated.
Raab: "Use common sense"
Media: "This is dumber than that time you didn't understand about Dover and UK/international trade. It's like you've never met us before"
I've seen casual numbers (trying to find real data) that 30%+ of the workforce is working from home.
In office dominated ares (such as Central London), it wouldn't surprise me that 80%+ of jobs are either WTF, or furloughed because the jobs are there to support the office jobs.
All government money comes from the private sector. Destroy that and we are done.
Power to deal with lawbreakers is quite right but only with lawbreakers. And lawbreakers doesn't (nor should it) necessarily mean everyone breaking "advice".
To make another driving analogy the Highway Code includes a lot of "you must do ..." and a lot of "you should do ..." for different scenarios. EG for driving in wet weather it says you should leave a bigger gap between cars in wet weather. That is sound advice and quite right too. While saying you need to keep to the left is a must so it is the law and the Police can get involved if you don't.
Not all cases of should ought to be must in the law.
The IT community is going nuts! It is going to be Dyson and the ventilators all over again.
Seriously though, let me know if you need anyone to do some testing on it, and do you have an easy way of reporting issues with the app away from the main site? I (and a few others here, I'm sure) do software stuff for a living, and have rather more personal bandwidth than I'd like at the moment.
"Demonstrators gathered in Berlin, Munich, Stuttgart and other German cities to decry coronavirus-triggered restrictions imposed by the government. A right-wing protester attacked a team of reporters in Dortmund."
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-thousands-of-protesters-slam-isolation-measures/a-53382891
As I keep saying Nurses , Doctors, Police, Food Manufacturers and Processors etc etc have all been at work with new working practices. Yet it seems for those sat at home on 80-100% pay think that they should not have to go to work and use these new working practices which are readily available online. They think that it is perfectly ok for those who have worked since lockdown to continue to work.
She certainly comes across with a lot more clarity than Boris regardless of whether completely right, she is at least consistent.
A welcome about turn from you. Welcome aboard the sanity train.
(LibDems didn't have a chance)
We have to get back on the horse. People are scared and lashing out. Of course. Still have to do it.
1. He looked and sounded fine. We can cease worrying about his health.
2. I have no problem with the "Stay Home" to "Stay Alert" message change. To me the meaning is obvious. Get out and about a bit more if you wish but keep to distancing and elevated hygiene.
3. The overall vibe is of a government not in control. They are in the dark about the virus and unsure how to proceed. There is no confidence we can open up without a second spike and many many deaths. The "plan" therefore is to encourage baby steps and watch the numbers with fingers crossed.
What we can't do when we drink and drive, though, is think for ourselves. It is a very clearly defined limit to blood alcohol levels. You might think you are the safest driver on earth after a bottle of Proper Twelve but the law would say otherwise.
I am not a party loyalist. I defend what I believe in and criticise what I oppose. When the government does illiberal nonsense that goes against my beliefs I criticise it. And I've criticised it at times during the epidemic too.
But I'm glad you agree with what I wrote.
Wish I could be confident of remembering the stats but I think it was something like 37% currently working from home and around 10% being the normal proportion. Can't say I have confidence in remembering it accurately, though.
For example, the teaching unions have and are meeting with the government (at all levels from local to UK) to discuss the results of various trials and plans for how to partially re-open schools. N rounds of dealing with various issues etc.
Interesting little piece on the last of The Few, though I did wonder if the guy had travelled back to Dublin at anytime during the war.
https://twitter.com/samueljenkinson/status/1259768905872166912
If you want to drink and drive and be under the limit you need to think for yourself how to do that. There is no answer to "can I drink a pint and drive" or "can I drink two pints and drive" which is what the media are blathering on about with all these hypotheticals expecting set answers to every question they can come up with.
Indeed it seems to me that your answer is a good example of the "adversarial approach".
37% seems staggeringly high to me - in terms of it being 250%+ higher than pre-lockdown. Perhaps it is an example of what can be done if you *must*.
If you add in the proportion of the workforce that is still working at their place of work - food, telecoms, power etc - that would mean that at least half the working population is at work. I would not be surprised by 60% overall.
For me the decisions years ago to get rid of public care homes and encourage private piracy was a big mistake.
Community transmission also raises the risk of care staff getting the disease and bringing it in with them. The elderly who are capable to live at home can shield but the elderly in homes with dementia potentially have dozens of visitors daily coming and going in the care home staff - and they need that support. And you can't get people with dementia in their own home (which is what a care home is) to socially distance either, they both need the support and don't understand or remember what the virus is.
McLaren make vehicles and know fuck all about medical devices. They've been able to make a large number of them.
Idiot!
Personally, it isn't a problem. I just ease off a bit but still take care and use my common sense. Those who have businesses to run and staff to consider have my sympathy. What are they supposed to be doing now?
As for the Police....play it by ear?
Which is exactly what happened, a team lead by Mercedes-Benz High Performance Powertrains in Brixworth made a CPAP device - a design which they have open sourced - instead of their usual job of making engines for Lewis Hamilton's racing cars.
Your constant criticism of Dyson is more related to James Dyson's stance on Brexit, than anything to do with ventilators.
Are courses going to allow people to play together in a 3 or 4 ball? Or a 2 ball with people unlikely to live together (perhaps known to the organisers not to live together). If not there will be very few times available and most people will have to play on their own so most wont get to play. Courses might even decide not to open if they can only get 30% their normal capacity playing, further reducing the chance to play.
There is far less chance of catching covid playing socially distance golf with others, than there is staying socially distanced in a park. Its bound to be a factor well over 10x, probably 100x as you dont come anywhere near anyone for most of the day. There is no logic in the advise.
Its not hypothetical at all, or something I can use my own judgment on, courses will have to follow it if its law and will be under very strong media pressure to if its advice. So in reality people who were pleased to be told they could play by the PM will now find out they cant.
Staggered starting times
Marked the floor like we are Tescos
Added PPE
Listened to employees (a lot)
put up a lot of signs
Changed a lot of procedures
Closed a lot of desks
Introduced a lot of booking systems for equipment
Put a huge amount of wipes and gels and all that around the place
Implemented cross-team lists of tasks which can be done by whoever is in, people working for other managers etc.
Plus many more things
In short we ave changed a lot, in a short time, flexibily and IMHO very effectively. We are not anywhere near full efficiency, but we have in suymmary just GOT ON WITH IT - as i say, since March.
I despair at the can't do attitude i see so much of this morning, and marvel at who these businesses are who "need clear guidance". Failing whelk stalls presumably.
A lot is possible with a clear head and some determination. the Pestons of this world who moan that it's all doom, all unclear and nothing is possible can frankly do one. Grrrr
1. A lot of businesses are going to have to start making some very tough decsions soon.
2. The likelihood is that this will lead to a lot of people losing their jobs and, therefore, their incomes.
3. Where do the replacement jobs come from and over what timescale?
4. Who will be affected most by this and in what parts of the country?
5. Does this lead to fundamental reform of the welfare system - and quickly?
6. A transition extension is clearly not going to happen, but what impact is this going to have in practical terms - it seems likely to mean, at a minimum, higher prices in the shops?
I am sure there are penty of other things to consider, too.
Your glee that the numbers were so high in Scotland is very unnerving.
From the HSJ ...
https://www.hsj.co.uk/exclusive-deaths-of-nhs-staff-from-covid-19-analysed/7027471.article
Interesting, but the press will never allow facts to ruin a good story
Going for an Independence Day vibe? Bloody Americanisms ...
There was consensus of the experts they had on was in general they worked well as it was less us vs them. The guiding principles were more about the company succeeding & plenty of examples of acceptance of things like lower pay to make a business work.
https://freakonomics.com/podcast/secrets-german-economy-steal/
{sarcasm} So no difference from usual AND/OR the world is a safer place? {/sarcasm}
One thing I wonder if you could help with. The BBC was running stories all day yesterday claiming that the relaxation of the lockdown had resulted in a surge of new cases in Germany. Is this true? I can see no sign of this in the Worldometer numbers but they are far from perfect. The number of active cases seems to be falling and the number of new cases seems to be on a downward trend, as far as we can tell from the reported figures. Do you know what the basis of the BBC story was?
Like other sectors, golf must have got a nod from the goverment as all the England Golf regional organisers were "unfurloughed" last week.
Since they've confirmed some industries will be kept closed until at least July I can't see it winding down until then.
https://twitter.com/andymoz78/status/1259029829137190913
The good doctor's Covid 19 advice: "Stay the f*** at home and don’t use our inventiveness and ability to cobble together solutions as an excuse for a street party.