Oh dear, those of us who always knew Boris Johnson was unfit for the office he now holds are being proven right every day to a level that even I thought impossible. His "address" (more like a ramble) was an embarrassment to him and those that have blindly followed him. Back of a fag packet ideas might be ok when you are Mayor of London, but they are not appropriate for a Prime Minister in a time of crisis. Once again, thanks to Boris Johnson, and his less than intelligent fanbois, Britain is the laughing stock of the world. The only western country with a more ludicrous "leader" is the United States.
Of course, Bozo and Trump are not really leaders. They are jokes from reality TV and game shows, but the only person really laughing is Vladimir Putin.
Winging it is a good thing. You cannot prepare for every eventuality.
(Which is why centrally planned economies always fail)
Well said.
The divide here in opinions doesn't seem to be on a Tory/anti-Tory split but a subtler difference of a "People can think for themselves"/"the government must have all the answers" split.
Of course those two divides have a lot in common.
Im starting a third group. We want people to think for themselves, but think the govt is making that difficult by creating random illogical restrictions, that they then enforce against the weakest in society but not against themselves.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
I read that Sunak is extending the furlough to September, as this government of cowards yet again seeks to defer the day of reckoning its disastrous policies have brought about
The message from the government is therefore this is a viable long term alternative.
Mr. Battery, you could just as easily caricature PB Anti-Tories as being full of mindless criticism at everything said.
It might just be better to try and take as fair and balanced a view as possible, raising debating points and questions relevant to a given topic rather than seek to paint those who don't share your view as mindless herd animals without actually explaining why you disagree with them.
There is an important distinction to be made Mr Dancer, between "Anti-Tories", and "Anti-Boris-Johnson-and Dominic-Cumming's-Tories". The latter camp I fall in. The former I do not, although it can be argued that the former has been largely taken over in hostile merger by the latter.
My view, is that the government has done some good things (so-far) on business support, though most goes no further than every other European country. Their management from the health perspective, and general communications, has been nothing short of a joke. This is a reflection of the collection (with the exception of Gove) of lightweights and inexperienced yes-men that have been put in place so they do not in anyway threaten the inept PM. They will need to be held to account.
This is the most amateurish government I can ever recall in my lifetime.
@DavidL that’s all well and good but when the Police are going to be given more powers to arbitrarily impose even greater fines, its only those who are unlucky who are going to be punished.
I would suggest only those being stupid. Like having a house party with multiple guests or large scale BBQs with people swirling about in close proximity. I find it genuinely bizarre that people want government to micro-manage their lives like this. Do people really think (a) that is appropriate and (b) that makes them safe?
Of course here in Scotland our FM still thinks that she does know best. Sigh.
Worst case she knows a lot more about position in Scotland than Boris.
Then why does she say;
1) The R number in Scotland is still too high to end lockdown and 2) I can't tell you what the R number is?
Yep, journalists all seem horribly confused this morning. Can’t they wait a few hours to read the actual publication?
If the 60-page document had been published yesterday, they’d all be screaming that it should first have been placed before Parliament.
I think the Lobby aren't thinking about the right questions.
People will want to know how this affects their jobs, when their sector will re-open, and if it affects their entitlement to pay/furlough/benefits.
Not "if I want to meet my parents in a park, can I meet them together".
Yes, exactly. The questions on most people’s minds are those that don’t affect the journalists at all.
They’ve not been stuck at home for weeks, they’ve not been put on furlough and are now worried about transitioning to more usual levels of benefits, if there isn’t a job to go back to. They’re not worried about issues of transport or childcare changing.
But they do care about seeing their parents, because it’s the one thing that’s actually affected the Lobby hacks themselves.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Imagine if you work in a food processing plant. You have had to go to work since lock down. You have had to take account of Government advice and introduce new working practices. You have had to get to and from work despite public transport being vastly reduced. This is so you can produce food for people whom the Government are paying between 80-100% of their wages to sit at home. Now the government has dared suggest that some more people should return to work and look at the outcry.
Now they are saying golf has to be on your own or with one member of your household.
How on earth is that consistent with the take responsibility yourselves message?
I can meet someone in a park and stay 2m away.
I cant meet someone in a park with 18 tiny holes in and stay 2m away.
Stop making up silly rules and let us decide on our common sense.
The fault is that having announced 5 levels of alert he then puts us at level 3.5. Its a fudge, he's stuck in the middle of the economists screaming about the economy and the medics screaming about the virus.
Stay at Home worked because although it was not all-encompassing it was clear enough. Stay Alert is not, hence the need to try and tell people what it means. Play golf only with your own household / meet 1 parent only is a carry over from stage 4's Stay Home. Play golf / have a picnic because fresh air is good is from Stage 3.
The half stage is Stay at Home. Unless you don't want to. Then go outside. But only with the people you're at home with. Which sounds stupid and prompts the obvious questions. Which gives dumb cabinet secretaries (Raab FFS) the opportunity to make up "guidance" on the spot.
What was the point in setting out 5 levels of alert and then not using it? Had we moved to level 3 then the "household" rule would have been dropped, replaced with "social distancing from anyone". Which people can understand. Suggestion they didn't want to do this in case people gather in large groups. Like the government encouraged us all to do on VE day...
@DavidL that’s all well and good but when the Police are going to be given more powers to arbitrarily impose even greater fines, its only those who are unlucky who are going to be punished.
I would suggest only those being stupid. Like having a house party with multiple guests or large scale BBQs with people swirling about in close proximity. I find it genuinely bizarre that people want government to micro-manage their lives like this. Do people really think (a) that is appropriate and (b) that makes them safe?
Of course here in Scotland our FM still thinks that she does know best. Sigh.
David, typical Tory viewpoint , SNPBAD. Worst case she knows a lot more about position in Scotland than Boris. He is so twisted he will not even involve the devolved nations in discussions as he thinks he is so clever he knows it all and can treat devolved nations like crap. If I had a choice of who I would listen to it would be anyone but Boris, Sturgeon at least sounds like a grown up.
I have praised Nicola repeatedly throughout this crisis and I agree that she sounds like a grown up but I think that she has got this wrong. We simply cannot stay at home indefinitely. We need to get our economy moving again. We need to do what we can within the parameters of keeping R below 1 to live normal lives. It's difficult, its messy and ultimately it is not in my view a matter for governments to deal with the details. She needs to back off carefully, slowly but progressively.
She needs to think about the damage being done to children's education. By August they will have been out of school for 5 months. How many will never re-engage? She needs to think about the damage being done to people on University courses. Distance learning is one thing but where is the exchange of ideas, the socialisation, student life? She needs to think about those suffering from depression and isolation, from medical conditions not being treated, from people worrying that that guarantee they granted over their house for the family business means they may be left homeless. Playing ultra safe is not a risk free option. It has a price and that price is increasingly prohibitive.
Thoughts: 1. Love the Thick of It comparison - it really is a real life re-enactment of that episode. 2. Love the "ITS VERY CLEAR" insistence from PB/FB Tories being roundly ridiculed by anyone with ears. 3. WY Cop Shop says "Fuck this we're offski". The singularly most dangerous thing I've read. I know the current "we've had enough of experts" version of the Tory party thinks its funny to blame the experts for their incompetence, but Maybot tried that at the police federation and it backfired badly 4. The sky is literally about to fall in on the government as scores of sizable businesses place a significant number of furloughed employees on notice of redundancy. There is literally nothing to reassure the hospitality industry of any kind of restoration. The travel and holiday industry was scuttled last night. If you run one of these companies the only change you may have of not losing the business is to lay everyone off and try to mothball things. Sunak could join in with the "nothing has changed" by making furlough and other schemes open ended and unlimited. Or else BOOM.
As I stated earlier but it's worth repeating.
Furlough scheme ends June 30th 45 Day notice of redundancy notices need to be sent by May 15th (this Friday).
There really is zero time for this to be fixed - it needs to be sorted by close of play tonight.
I suspect it's already too late for that. From what I can tell from talking to friends, most companies are predicting an "L" shaped recession and, depending on their sector, are already looking at slimming down between 10-30%. They will be doing this regardless of whether or not the furlough scheme is extended by an extra couple of months.
I stand by my prediction from over a month ago that the economic fallout from all of this will end up being the bigger story than the number of deaths. We are heading into a great depression the likes of which has never been seen in our lifetime, but people are still arguing about the number of tests or stupid "stay alert" slogans. Truly deckchairs on the titanic.
Mr. Battery, you could just as easily caricature PB Anti-Tories as being full of mindless criticism at everything said.
It might just be better to try and take as fair and balanced a view as possible, raising debating points and questions relevant to a given topic rather than seek to paint those who don't share your view as mindless herd animals without actually explaining why you disagree with them.
There is an important distinction to be made Mr Dancer, between "Anti-Tories", and "Anti-Boris-Johnson-and Dominic-Cumming's-Tories". The latter camp I fall in. The former I do not, although it can be argued that the former has been largely taken over in hostile merger by the latter.
My view, is that the government has done some good things (so-far) on business support, though most goes no further than every other European country. Their management from the health perspective, and general communications, has been nothing short of a joke. This is a reflection of the collection (with the exception of Gove) of lightweights and inexperienced yes-men that have been put in place so they do not in anyway threaten the inept PM. They will need to be held to account.
This is the most amateurish government I can ever recall in my lifetime.
Some of the failings here are by civil servants. Some are failures of basic administration. Government ministers should have spotted them, of course.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
Yep. Massive problem. With opposition parties and the unions playing holier-than-thou to further their own ends with no care whatsoever for the public finances - which are properly screwed.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
It is the government that has partly nurtured this attitude, though, by introducing the furlough scheme in a desperate attempt to insulate Britain from the consequences of its actions.
And its going to continue to do that by extending the furlough to September, if the Telegraph is right. Great news for what is left of Britain's tax base. Great news for our children and grandchildren who will have to pay back these enormous debts.
Yep, journalists all seem horribly confused this morning. Can’t they wait a few hours to read the actual publication?
If the 60-page document had been published yesterday, they’d all be screaming that it should first have been placed before Parliament.
They should have published them simultaneously. Everyone on PB I dare say immediately googled Coronvirus regulations, to be met with the same document published on 26th March.
Don't have the nation gathered round the TV screens and then leave them hanging. Or be surprised that people ask what it all means.
If they had published the document, every other comment could have been - please refer to the new regulations.
Of course they were happy for people not to look too hard at the actual law previously (eg. on exercise, two people meeting outdoors, etc) so perhaps it might not change and that will also throw up questions.
Looking forward to 2pm and whether there are new laws to go with the new guidelines.
Of course no labour minister or dare i say shadow ministrr... since 2010 lol ... has pulled out of an interview at short notice.. ffs
They are not in government, at a time of crisis. Raab is. He was, even by his own low standards, totally hopeless this morning on BBC. I almost felt sorry for him.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
"Protect the NHS" doesn't seem any more precise than "Control the Virus".
"we hope people will act on this week" does not mean "you must go to work tomorrow" either.
First step is employers need to do risk assessments and then they need to contact their employees. Unlikely that will all be done before Wednesday anyway unless they were already working on it.
And so no, this is not the time simply to end the lockdown this week.
Instead we are taking the first careful steps to modify our measures.
And the first step is a change of emphasis that we hope that people will act on this week.
We said that you should work from home if you can, and only go to work if you must.
We now need to stress that anyone who can’t work from home, for instance those in construction or manufacturing, should be actively encouraged to go to work.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
I read that Sunak is extending the furlough to September, as this government of cowards yet again seeks to defer the day of reckoning its disastrous policies have brought about
The message from the government is therefore this is a viable long term alternative.
The point about not shutting down the furlough is so that businesses don't all try and re-open on X+1 (Where X is the end date of the scheme).
Encouraging them to re-open during the furlough means that a slower, more measured approach is possible.
And that goes for the other employee/business support measures
The Government has specifically said the go to work if you can applies from Wednesday, so need to hang fire for 24 hours at all. Just wait until Wednesday, by which time your employer will have been in touch presumably.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
That's a bit of a goalpost shift compared to yesterday. I was assured yesterday everyone knew wha stay alert means.
Winging it is a good thing. You cannot prepare for every eventuality.
(Which is why centrally planned economies always fail)
Being able to quickly react to a change in situation is good, but being well prepared makes the spontaneous decisions much easier to get right.
A classic example is Jonny Wilkinsons drop goal in the Rugby WC final in 2003. With under a minute to go, the whole team knew how to get him into a good drop goal position. Was that winging it? Yes, but they had also prepared for it.
@CarlottaVance Still struggling to find proof re your lies on care homes I see, I presume the numbers do not support your claims on several previous threads.
You're ok with more than half your deaths in care homes?
Where does it say in there that more people died in Scottish Care Homes than English ones. Trying to change the subject with your latest questions is just crass. Of course I am not happy with anyone dying of Covid anywhere but obviously the most likely place would be care homes where you have captive audience and majority have major illnesses so very susceptible. You nastily tried to say more people died in Scottish Care Homes than England just to rubbish Scotland and fit your prejudices which was an OUT and OUT lie, now you try to obfuscate rather than admitting you made an error of judgement.
Winging it is a good thing. You cannot prepare for every eventuality.
(Which is why centrally planned economies always fail)
Well said.
The divide here in opinions doesn't seem to be on a Tory/anti-Tory split but a subtler difference of a "People can think for themselves"/"the government must have all the answers" split.
Of course those two divides have a lot in common.
Im starting a third group. We want people to think for themselves, but think the govt is making that difficult by creating random illogical restrictions, that they then enforce against the weakest in society but not against themselves.
@CarlottaVance Still struggling to find proof re your lies on care homes I see, I presume the numbers do not support your claims on several previous threads.
You're ok with more than half your deaths in care homes?
I don't know much about Scottish care homes, but I've been in quite a few English ones. If they are similar, and I suspect they are, then once an infection like this gets in, then it's very, very difficult to control. If, as is possible, the average 'condition of the residents' is worse than in England, due perhaps to the sometimes poorer Scottish diet, greater smoking and so on, then the effect of Conovid-19 will be worse. The possible contrary argument is that in general the Scottish public's health is better and so it's 'only' the really vulnerable who are suffering.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
Winging it is a good thing. You cannot prepare for every eventuality.
(Which is why centrally planned economies always fail)
Well said.
The divide here in opinions doesn't seem to be on a Tory/anti-Tory split but a subtler difference of a "People can think for themselves"/"the government must have all the answers" split.
Of course those two divides have a lot in common.
The trouble is, when "people think for themselves" they get the "wrong" answer from Boris to Brexit to SindyRef - no wonder they don't think people should "think for themselves".
The visit parents must be nonsense. If they are over 70 they are in a 12 week total lockdown (or most of them think they were told that, which they were, but now the government claims they weren't etc etc).
@Philip_Thompson your arrogance and condescendence is really on another level this morning. Your constant spinning for the government must be making you insecure.
I note that when he is called out when suggests impossible next steps he stops talking.
It really is a shame Vanilla doesn't offer an ignore button as this is the 3rd day I've replied to half baked details from him (today he forgot Childcare was closed, last week it was knowing more about IT projects than 2 people who earn their living fixing them).
I didn't forget childcare is closed I tried to be helpful. Its a difficult situation and I'm sure people will be making difficult decisions.
As for IT I never said I knew more than anyone else. I said that I would be surprised if they hadn't thought about the problem - and I said that if it didn't work then that would surely be discovered this week in the Beta test and they would go to a Plan B. Given that it seems the problem has been discovered in the Beta test and they have gone to Plan B then how was I wrong please?
Because our argument was that it was never going to work and why the project got to this state, more than the testing. Catching it in user acceptance testing is very expensive in both project costs, you've lost 2 weeks and time lost (it's going to cost £2-3bn in additional furlough costs).
Indeed it would have been great to have spotted this earlier but my point was that the app was already complete by the time people were pointing this out loudly here at least so they may as well have the Beta Test while working on a Plan B.
It would be great to prevent all mistakes but its not going to happen. I'd rather a mistake is recognised as a mistake and a Plan B followed than people get so obsessed about worrying about u-turns or getting the sack if they make a mistake that they plow on regardless and deny there was one.
Most of the time you would have plan b ready to go - especially if the cost of plan b was £500,000 and the cost of a delay £2bn a week.
But hey what do I know - I'm an expert in that field.
Long may the @Philip_Thompson I see no ships saga continue. We need some light relief on here.
I saw ships, I also saw the solution - have a Plan B.
If Gates can have 8 Plans and be celebrated for it I don't see why our government shouldn't have two plans.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Brilliant post. Absolutely spot on.
You don't think a bit of planning might be useful? Some guidance on how to tackle the change? Clarity on what's being asked for? Answers to some basic questions?
Even if the answer is: “decide for yourself, being sensible given the risks”.
That is not (yet) the government’s position, even if you think it should be.
Its not going to be the government's advice no.
The government's advice should be best practice relevant for the situation as whole for the country while people make their own decisions based upon that. I hope we're never in a position where we need the Prime Minister to do all our thinking for us.
The government is getting in a tangle on some very basic questions. It should have planned answers to these.
On some of them, the answer should be “decide for yourselves based on what you know”. But it isn’t.
They aborted and have changed tack at the last minute, and made the (pre scheduled) announcement while still trying to fill out the details.
Now they are saying golf has to be on your own or with one member of your household.
How on earth is that consistent with the take responsibility yourselves message?
I can meet someone in a park and stay 2m away.
I cant meet someone in a park with 18 tiny holes in and stay 2m away.
Stop making up silly rules and let us decide on our common sense.
The fault is that having announced 5 levels of alert he then puts us at level 3.5. Its a fudge, he's stuck in the middle of the economists screaming about the economy and the medics screaming about the virus.
Stay at Home worked because although it was not all-encompassing it was clear enough. Stay Alert is not, hence the need to try and tell people what it means. Play golf only with your own household / meet 1 parent only is a carry over from stage 4's Stay Home. Play golf / have a picnic because fresh air is good is from Stage 3.
The half stage is Stay at Home. Unless you don't want to. Then go outside. But only with the people you're at home with. Which sounds stupid and prompts the obvious questions. Which gives dumb cabinet secretaries (Raab FFS) the opportunity to make up "guidance" on the spot.
What was the point in setting out 5 levels of alert and then not using it? Had we moved to level 3 then the "household" rule would have been dropped, replaced with "social distancing from anyone". Which people can understand. Suggestion they didn't want to do this in case people gather in large groups. Like the government encouraged us all to do on VE day...
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
Yep. Massive problem. With opposition parties and the unions playing holier-than-thou to further their own ends with no care whatsoever for the public finances - which are properly screwed.
What Johnson has shut down, he will have the devil's own job opening up.
Given reluctance of people to go back to work, opposition opportunism, social distancing rules and the extension of the furlough, a v shaped recovery is a mirage. Not only is debt ballooning but the deficit is opening up like the grand canyon. A size of deficit barely imaginable, and I daresay, almost impossible to recover.
I think we should look at our last calculation of the hock we are in, and add a nought.
Now they are saying golf has to be on your own or with one member of your household.
How on earth is that consistent with the take responsibility yourselves message?
I can meet someone in a park and stay 2m away.
I cant meet someone in a park with 18 tiny holes in and stay 2m away.
Stop making up silly rules and let us decide on our common sense.
The fault is that having announced 5 levels of alert he then puts us at level 3.5. Its a fudge, he's stuck in the middle of the economists screaming about the economy and the medics screaming about the virus.
Stay at Home worked because although it was not all-encompassing it was clear enough. Stay Alert is not, hence the need to try and tell people what it means. Play golf only with your own household / meet 1 parent only is a carry over from stage 4's Stay Home. Play golf / have a picnic because fresh air is good is from Stage 3.
The half stage is Stay at Home. Unless you don't want to. Then go outside. But only with the people you're at home with. Which sounds stupid and prompts the obvious questions. Which gives dumb cabinet secretaries (Raab FFS) the opportunity to make up "guidance" on the spot.
What was the point in setting out 5 levels of alert and then not using it? Had we moved to level 3 then the "household" rule would have been dropped, replaced with "social distancing from anyone". Which people can understand. Suggestion they didn't want to do this in case people gather in large groups. Like the government encouraged us all to do on VE day...
Mr. Battery, you could just as easily caricature PB Anti-Tories as being full of mindless criticism at everything said.
It might just be better to try and take as fair and balanced a view as possible, raising debating points and questions relevant to a given topic rather than seek to paint those who don't share your view as mindless herd animals without actually explaining why you disagree with them.
There is an important distinction to be made Mr Dancer, between "Anti-Tories", and "Anti-Boris-Johnson-and Dominic-Cumming's-Tories". The latter camp I fall in. The former I do not, although it can be argued that the former has been largely taken over in hostile merger by the latter.
My view, is that the government has done some good things (so-far) on business support, though most goes no further than every other European country. Their management from the health perspective, and general communications, has been nothing short of a joke. This is a reflection of the collection (with the exception of Gove) of lightweights and inexperienced yes-men that have been put in place so they do not in anyway threaten the inept PM. They will need to be held to account.
This is the most amateurish government I can ever recall in my lifetime.
Some of the failings here are by civil servants. Some are failures of basic administration. Government ministers should have spotted them, of course.
As Mrs T once said, I believe, "Advisors advise, ministers decide". Unfortunately this set of ministers, including the PM do not have the experience or guts or common sense to decide. The evidence is in the shocking numbers. I said earlier we are a global laughing stock. Actually it is worse than that, the world feels sorry for us.
Yep, journalists all seem horribly confused this morning. Can’t they wait a few hours to read the actual publication?
If the 60-page document had been published yesterday, they’d all be screaming that it should first have been placed before Parliament.
They should have published them simultaneously. Everyone on PB I dare say immediately googled Coronvirus regulations, to be met with the same document published on 26th March.
Don't have the nation gathered round the TV screens and then leave them hanging. Or be surprised that people ask what it all means.
If they had published the document, every other comment could have been - please refer to the new regulations.
Of course they were happy for people not to look too hard at the actual law previously (eg. on exercise, two people meeting outdoors, etc) so perhaps it might not change and that will also throw up questions.
Looking forward to 2pm and whether there are new laws to go with the new guidelines.
The government wanted to get the largest TV audience possible for the PM, hence the 7pm Sunday slot. Most people will wake up this morning and start getting into the mindset that there will be changes coming.
Meanwhile, the 24h news hacks have nothing to do for five working hours as they await the PM’s statement to Parliament and the release of updated guidelines.
This morning is the perfect illustration of all that’s wrong with the media’s reporting of this crisis - it wouldn’t have been too difficult to simply lead with the PM’s statement last night and say that we are looking forward to this afternoon’s statement, but they’re literally incapable of holding for half a day without trying to make news out of nothing.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
Because, Phil me old mucker, actions taken as a result of thinking for yourself might be illegal in this new phase. And the police are about to have greater powers to sanction you if so.
@DavidL that’s all well and good but when the Police are going to be given more powers to arbitrarily impose even greater fines, its only those who are unlucky who are going to be punished.
I would suggest only those being stupid. Like having a house party with multiple guests or large scale BBQs with people swirling about in close proximity. I find it genuinely bizarre that people want government to micro-manage their lives like this. Do people really think (a) that is appropriate and (b) that makes them safe?
Of course here in Scotland our FM still thinks that she does know best. Sigh.
Worst case she knows a lot more about position in Scotland than Boris.
Then why does she say;
1) The R number in Scotland is still too high to end lockdown and 2) I can't tell you what the R number is?
Maybe if we did 5x the testing we are doing currently we would have a better idea.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
No matter how much some of us think we've mastered epidemiology over the last few weeks, the truth is we are not experts by any stretch of the imagination.
We're also all very aware that our decisions aren't simply about our own appetite for risk but about what is best to limit the infection rate in the interests of the whole community.
So people have perfectly legitimate questions about what actions do and do not involve an acceptable level of risk, which with the best will in the world they are not equipped to answer alone.
The crossover between people who became overnight experts in epidemiology but who can't understand what 'Stay alert' means is quite impressive.
Good spot and probably true. Understanding epidemiology (to an amateur level) and struggling with the overnight change of definition of the word alert are both signs of a logical and literal mind.
PM makes a speech: PB Tories think it is fantastic and full of clarity
Everyone else: questions
PB Tories: fantastic and full of clarity, why can't you all just understand?
Rinse and repeat
I actually think its the best site for analysis of politics out there, and is generally at least several days ahead of the mainstream media. Of course not everyone is my cup of tea, but why should they be - and there are at least a couple of dozen very informed very smart regular posters.
The reason why I keep coming back is that people who understand betting also have a reasonable understanding of probability (usually). The commentators on most other forums do not understand that the 70% estimate by 538 for Clinton to win WH2016 is not incompatible with the end result.
Edited to add that: the "at least a couple of dozen very informed very smart regular posters" come from a variety of fields, greatly adding to the standard of (many) posts.
The new message is intended to be less clear because there are more things you are allowed to do. The whole point is that we no longer need to "stay home". People can choose to do so, but they can also choose not to.
We're almost getting to the point where the press has such an infantilised view of the public that they'll be asking why the government doesn't wipe everyone's arse for them.
I'm not defending the slogan because it's not very good, but anything that leaves the decision making in the people's hands rather than in government hands was always going to be much less clear.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
Because that would be a reverse of the government's message of the last two months, which has essentially been you ordinary folk cannot be trusted.
What else is lockdown if not a policy that shows the towering distrust and contempt the government has for the citizen?
Thoughts: 1. Love the Thick of It comparison - it really is a real life re-enactment of that episode. 2. Love the "ITS VERY CLEAR" insistence from PB/FB Tories being roundly ridiculed by anyone with ears. 3. WY Cop Shop says "Fuck this we're offski". The singularly most dangerous thing I've read. I know the current "we've had enough of experts" version of the Tory party thinks its funny to blame the experts for their incompetence, but Maybot tried that at the police federation and it backfired badly 4. The sky is literally about to fall in on the government as scores of sizable businesses place a significant number of furloughed employees on notice of redundancy. There is literally nothing to reassure the hospitality industry of any kind of restoration. The travel and holiday industry was scuttled last night. If you run one of these companies the only change you may have of not losing the business is to lay everyone off and try to mothball things. Sunak could join in with the "nothing has changed" by making furlough and other schemes open ended and unlimited. Or else BOOM.
As I stated earlier but it's worth repeating.
Furlough scheme ends June 30th 45 Day notice of redundancy notices need to be sent by May 15th (this Friday).
There really is zero time for this to be fixed - it needs to be sorted by close of play tonight.
I suspect it's already too late for that. From what I can tell from talking to friends, most companies are predicting an "L" shaped recession and, depending on their sector, are already looking at slimming down between 10-30%. They will be doing this regardless of whether or not the furlough scheme is extended by an extra couple of months.
I stand by my prediction from over a month ago that the economic fallout from all of this will end up being the bigger story than the number of deaths. We are heading into a great depression the likes of which has never been seen in our lifetime, but people are still arguing about the number of tests or stupid "stay alert" slogans. Truly deckchairs on the titanic.
I suspect we are looking at a 10-15% drop as a minimum possibly double that given that some industries that make up 10% of the economy are still closed
Someone on my estate had their parents round for a children’s birthday party this week, with no social distancing. Yes its against the guidelines and the law, and yes it risks transmission between households but in the grand scheme of things? I personally do not have a problem with it.
You cant pretend to be treating people like adults who are aware of risks and then also start increasing fines.
In theory there are quite strict laws about misuse of drugs. In reality, it takes a lot to get done:
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
Because, Phil me old mucker, actions taken as a result of thinking for yourself might be illegal in this new phase. And the police are about to have greater powers to sanction you if so.
I would be opposed to the Police getting involved unless something is egregious and clearly illegal.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
Yep. Massive problem. With opposition parties and the unions playing holier-than-thou to further their own ends with no care whatsoever for the public finances - which are properly screwed.
What Johnson has shut down, he will have the devil's own job opening up.
Given reluctance of people to go back to work, opposition opportunism, social distancing rules and the extension of the furlough, a v shaped recovery is a mirage. Not only is debt ballooning but the deficit is opening up like the grand canyon. A size of deficit barely imaginable, and I daresay, almost impossible to recover.
I think we should look at our last calculation of the hock we are in, and add a nought.
Agreed. What can this populist government do? Opposition parties and unions are going to make hay with "nasty Tories" narrative, uncaring of the damage THEY are doing to our country by mischief-making in this way. The government should use its majority to make the decisions needed to get us out of this mess. But they lack the balls to be unpopular.
Out political system can`t cope with this. The end game may have to be some sort of national unity government.
Mr. Battery, you could just as easily caricature PB Anti-Tories as being full of mindless criticism at everything said.
It might just be better to try and take as fair and balanced a view as possible, raising debating points and questions relevant to a given topic rather than seek to paint those who don't share your view as mindless herd animals without actually explaining why you disagree with them.
There is an important distinction to be made Mr Dancer, between "Anti-Tories", and "Anti-Boris-Johnson-and Dominic-Cumming's-Tories". The latter camp I fall in. The former I do not, although it can be argued that the former has been largely taken over in hostile merger by the latter.
My view, is that the government has done some good things (so-far) on business support, though most goes no further than every other European country. Their management from the health perspective, and general communications, has been nothing short of a joke. This is a reflection of the collection (with the exception of Gove) of lightweights and inexperienced yes-men that have been put in place so they do not in anyway threaten the inept PM. They will need to be held to account.
This is the most amateurish government I can ever recall in my lifetime.
Some of the failings here are by civil servants. Some are failures of basic administration. Government ministers should have spotted them, of course.
As Mrs T once said, I believe, "Advisors advise, ministers decide". Unfortunately this set of ministers, including the PM do not have the experience or guts or common sense to decide. The evidence is in the shocking numbers. I said earlier we are a global laughing stock. Actually it is worse than that, the world feels sorry for us.
I have not seen any indication that we are a global laughing stock, nor that the world feels sorry for us. Might be a good idea to take your bias goggles off and look at the facts, not just the bare figures:
The U.K. has a population density of 280 people per km2 France has a population density of 102 people per km2 Spain has a population density of 97 people per km2
Know what that means? That means, ( according to figures from google today) the U.K., despite having nearly 3 times (275%) the population density of France and (289%) that of Spain, has death figures which are only 8% more than France and 7.5% more than Spain.
@CarlottaVance Still struggling to find proof re your lies on care homes I see, I presume the numbers do not support your claims on several previous threads.
You're ok with more than half your deaths in care homes?
Where does it say in there that more people died in Scottish Care Homes than English ones. Trying to change the subject with your latest questions is just crass. Of course I am not happy with anyone dying of Covid anywhere but obviously the most likely place would be care homes where you have captive audience and majority have major illnesses so very susceptible. You nastily tried to say more people died in Scottish Care Homes than England just to rubbish Scotland and fit your prejudices which was an OUT and OUT lie, now you try to obfuscate rather than admitting you made an error of judgement.
I wrote Scotland appears* to be having a worse Care Home COVID pandemic than England - and with nearly half Scottish deaths in Care Homes vs a third in England do you not think that's a reasonable question?
Or do you dispute the facts?
Care Homes have been a disaster across the British Isles - even in jurisdictions that have handled COVID well.
* As with all of this we won't know the true answer for years - we've got to work with the imperfect data we have.
The new message is intended to be less clear because there are more things you are allowed to do. The whole point is that we no longer need to "stay home". People can choose to do so, but they can also choose not to.
We're almost getting to the point where the press has such an infantilised view of the public that they'll be asking why the government doesn't wipe everyone's arse for them.
I'm not defending the slogan because it's not very good, but anything that leaves the decision making in the people's hands rather than in government hands was always going to be much less clear.
No, it's less than clear because they are trying to square the circle of the mess they have made in reconciling the decision - that things stay essentially as they are and we review in a couple of weeks time - with the pre-briefing of the decision that things were going to change.
I think a lot of the problem is this government's inability to be transparent and straightforward. It seems the major change in policy is from "stay at home unless a keyworker" to "get back to work as soon as it's safe." Why not say so? Then the entire presentation could be on what needs to be done to make that work environment safe. Government would have answers on the key questions and businesses and employees would have time to put new arrangements in place.
Winging it is a good thing. You cannot prepare for every eventuality.
(Which is why centrally planned economies always fail)
Being able to quickly react to a change in situation is good, but being well prepared makes the spontaneous decisions much easier to get right.
A classic example is Jonny Wilkinsons drop goal in the Rugby WC final in 2003. With under a minute to go, the whole team knew how to get him into a good drop goal position. Was that winging it? Yes, but they had also prepared for it.
Not really. It was a set piece that had been rehearsed by the team over and over again, and the Aussies didn't manage to close it down. It was not winging it at all. Jonny Wilkinson is the antithesis of Boris Johnson, and the World Cup winning England side was the antithesis of the lightweights and inexperience that Boris Johnson has surrounded himself with.
Thoughts: 1. Love the Thick of It comparison - it really is a real life re-enactment of that episode. 2. Love the "ITS VERY CLEAR" insistence from PB/FB Tories being roundly ridiculed by anyone with ears. 3. WY Cop Shop says "Fuck this we're offski". The singularly most dangerous thing I've read. I know the current "we've had enough of experts" version of the Tory party thinks its funny to blame the experts for their incompetence, but Maybot tried that at the police federation and it backfired badly 4. The sky is literally about to fall in on the government as scores of sizable businesses place a significant number of furloughed employees on notice of redundancy. There is literally nothing to reassure the hospitality industry of any kind of restoration. The travel and holiday industry was scuttled last night. If you run one of these companies the only change you may have of not losing the business is to lay everyone off and try to mothball things. Sunak could join in with the "nothing has changed" by making furlough and other schemes open ended and unlimited. Or else BOOM.
As I stated earlier but it's worth repeating.
Furlough scheme ends June 30th 45 Day notice of redundancy notices need to be sent by May 15th (this Friday).
There really is zero time for this to be fixed - it needs to be sorted by close of play tonight.
I suspect it's already too late for that. From what I can tell from talking to friends, most companies are predicting an "L" shaped recession and, depending on their sector, are already looking at slimming down between 10-30%. They will be doing this regardless of whether or not the furlough scheme is extended by an extra couple of months.
I stand by my prediction from over a month ago that the economic fallout from all of this will end up being the bigger story than the number of deaths. We are heading into a great depression the likes of which has never been seen in our lifetime, but people are still arguing about the number of tests or stupid "stay alert" slogans. Truly deckchairs on the titanic.
I suspect we are looking at a 10-15% drop as a minimum possibly double that given that some industries that make up 10% of the economy are still closed
Its not either/or though.
There is no way we could have had hundreds of thousands die and not have had a 6.4% fall in GDP.
Now they are saying golf has to be on your own or with one member of your household.
How on earth is that consistent with the take responsibility yourselves message?
I can meet someone in a park and stay 2m away.
I cant meet someone in a park with 18 tiny holes in and stay 2m away.
Stop making up silly rules and let us decide on our common sense.
The fault is that having announced 5 levels of alert he then puts us at level 3.5. Its a fudge, he's stuck in the middle of the economists screaming about the economy and the medics screaming about the virus.
Stay at Home worked because although it was not all-encompassing it was clear enough. Stay Alert is not, hence the need to try and tell people what it means. Play golf only with your own household / meet 1 parent only is a carry over from stage 4's Stay Home. Play golf / have a picnic because fresh air is good is from Stage 3.
The half stage is Stay at Home. Unless you don't want to. Then go outside. But only with the people you're at home with. Which sounds stupid and prompts the obvious questions. Which gives dumb cabinet secretaries (Raab FFS) the opportunity to make up "guidance" on the spot.
What was the point in setting out 5 levels of alert and then not using it? Had we moved to level 3 then the "household" rule would have been dropped, replaced with "social distancing from anyone". Which people can understand. Suggestion they didn't want to do this in case people gather in large groups. Like the government encouraged us all to do on VE day...
Yes, the whole level 3.5 thing is what isxmaking the advice muddled. They are trying to get the economic benefits from their defined L3 lockdown but maintain L4 measures for another two weeks.
Looking at the data, I think we could have gone into L3 fully but kept care homes and other sectors at L4 or L5.
PM makes a speech: PB Tories think it is fantastic and full of clarity
Everyone else: questions
PB Tories: fantastic and full of clarity, why can't you all just understand?
Rinse and repeat
I actually think its the best site for analysis of politics out there, and is generally at least several days ahead of the mainstream media. Of course not everyone is my cup of tea, but why should they be - and there are at least a couple of dozen very informed very smart regular posters.
The reason why I keep coming back is that people who understand betting also have a reasonable understanding of probability (usually). The commentators on most other forums do not understand that the 70% estimate by 538 for Clinton to win WH2016 is not incompatible with the end result.
Edited to add that: the "at least a couple of dozen very informed very smart regular posters" come from a variety of fields, greatly adding to the standard of (many) posts.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
For sure. But we have a law and a set of regulations that (endeavour to) tell people what to do.
Indeed the Regulations as drafted make it a specific offence not to follow a police direction to go home even if you aren't breaking the letter of the law - for example if you go for a second spell of outside exercise and the policeman or woman things you shouldn't.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
Yep. Massive problem. With opposition parties and the unions playing holier-than-thou to further their own ends with no care whatsoever for the public finances - which are properly screwed.
What Johnson has shut down, he will have the devil's own job opening up.
Given reluctance of people to go back to work, opposition opportunism, social distancing rules and the extension of the furlough, a v shaped recovery is a mirage. Not only is debt ballooning but the deficit is opening up like the grand canyon. A size of deficit barely imaginable, and I daresay, almost impossible to recover.
I think we should look at our last calculation of the hock we are in, and add a nought.
Agreed. What can this populist government do? Opposition parties and unions are going to make hay with "nasty Tories" narrative, uncaring of the damage THEY are doing to our country by mischief-making in this way. The government should use its majority to make the decisions needed to get us out of this mess. But they lack the balls to be unpopular.
Out political system can`t cope with this. The end game may have to be some sort of national unity government.
The endgame will be the fall of Johnson and his replacement by someone who can weather a bad headline or two. Its coming sooner than everybody thinks.
The new message is intended to be less clear because there are more things you are allowed to do. The whole point is that we no longer need to "stay home". People can choose to do so, but they can also choose not to.
We're almost getting to the point where the press has such an infantilised view of the public that they'll be asking why the government doesn't wipe everyone's arse for them.
I'm not defending the slogan because it's not very good, but anything that leaves the decision making in the people's hands rather than in government hands was always going to be much less clear.
No, it's less than clear because they are trying to square the circle of the mess they have made in reconciling the decision - that things stay essentially as they are and we review in a couple of weeks time - with the pre-briefing of the decision that things were going to change.
Some things have changed, I can now go outdoors and sit in a park with my partner for a picnic without the threat of being moved on by the police. I can go and play golf. I can go and sit in my parents garden 2m away from them.
These are real benefits for me that weren't available last week.
The new message is intended to be less clear because there are more things you are allowed to do. The whole point is that we no longer need to "stay home". People can choose to do so, but they can also choose not to.
We're almost getting to the point where the press has such an infantilised view of the public that they'll be asking why the government doesn't wipe everyone's arse for them.
Completely right.
People are at the point where they want to be told what to do because the virus is nasty and we'd rather shut ourselves away, get paid and not have to think for ourselves.
Well guess what? Life isn't like that. Time to suck it up.
Mr. Battery, you could just as easily caricature PB Anti-Tories as being full of mindless criticism at everything said.
It might just be better to try and take as fair and balanced a view as possible, raising debating points and questions relevant to a given topic rather than seek to paint those who don't share your view as mindless herd animals without actually explaining why you disagree with them.
There is an important distinction to be made Mr Dancer, between "Anti-Tories", and "Anti-Boris-Johnson-and Dominic-Cumming's-Tories". The latter camp I fall in. The former I do not, although it can be argued that the former has been largely taken over in hostile merger by the latter.
My view, is that the government has done some good things (so-far) on business support, though most goes no further than every other European country. Their management from the health perspective, and general communications, has been nothing short of a joke. This is a reflection of the collection (with the exception of Gove) of lightweights and inexperienced yes-men that have been put in place so they do not in anyway threaten the inept PM. They will need to be held to account.
This is the most amateurish government I can ever recall in my lifetime.
Some of the failings here are by civil servants. Some are failures of basic administration. Government ministers should have spotted them, of course.
As Mrs T once said, I believe, "Advisors advise, ministers decide". Unfortunately this set of ministers, including the PM do not have the experience or guts or common sense to decide. The evidence is in the shocking numbers. I said earlier we are a global laughing stock. Actually it is worse than that, the world feels sorry for us.
Didn't take long to get back the label "sick man of Europe".....between Brexit and the shocking response to Covid the Tories have trashed country...really properly fucked us up for a generation.....
Humble pie from me. I always think if you call something wrong - especially when it happens as infrequently as it does with yours truly - you should promptly admit the fact. Own the bad call rather than stay quiet and hope everyone forgets. So on that principle - garden centres. I was sure that their re-opening this week would be the centrepiece of Johnson's address to the nation. It wasn't. Garden centres were not even mentioned. I was wrong. Apologies to anybody whose hopes were raised or - worse - had made concrete plans based on my forecast.
I think a lot of the problem is this government's inability to be transparent and straightforward. It seems the major change in policy is from "stay at home unless a keyworker" to "get back to work as soon as it's safe." Why not say so? Then the entire presentation could be on what needs to be done to make that work environment safe. Government would have answers on the key questions and businesses and employees would have time to put new arrangements in place.
Sorry do you really think that people with a business have not thought that when a return to work is allowed that changes will have to be made? There is so much stuff avialable online and there has been since the 24th March 2020. Or perhaps businesses just think that Furlough will continue until a vaccine is found.
The new message is intended to be less clear because there are more things you are allowed to do. The whole point is that we no longer need to "stay home". People can choose to do so, but they can also choose not to.
We're almost getting to the point where the press has such an infantilised view of the public that they'll be asking why the government doesn't wipe everyone's arse for them.
I'm not defending the slogan because it's not very good, but anything that leaves the decision making in the people's hands rather than in government hands was always going to be much less clear.
No, it's less than clear because they are trying to square the circle of the mess they have made in reconciling the decision - that things stay essentially as they are and we review in a couple of weeks time - with the pre-briefing of the decision that things were going to change.
Some things have changed, I can now go outdoors and sit in a park with my partner for a picnic without the threat of being moved on by the police. I can go and play golf. I can go and sit in my parents garden 2m away from them.
These are real benefits for me that weren't available last week.
They are simply recognising where the previous advice has proved both pointless and unworkable. Provided you are separate from others, there never was any good reason why you shouldn't sit outside. Doubtless the original regulations were drafted by people with gardens.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
Yep. Massive problem. With opposition parties and the unions playing holier-than-thou to further their own ends with no care whatsoever for the public finances - which are properly screwed.
What Johnson has shut down, he will have the devil's own job opening up.
Given reluctance of people to go back to work, opposition opportunism, social distancing rules and the extension of the furlough, a v shaped recovery is a mirage. Not only is debt ballooning but the deficit is opening up like the grand canyon. A size of deficit barely imaginable, and I daresay, almost impossible to recover.
I think we should look at our last calculation of the hock we are in, and add a nought.
Agreed. What can this populist government do? Opposition parties and unions are going to make hay with "nasty Tories" narrative, uncaring of the damage THEY are doing to our country by mischief-making in this way. The government should use its majority to make the decisions needed to get us out of this mess. But they lack the balls to be unpopular.
Out political system can`t cope with this. The end game may have to be some sort of national unity government.
The endgame will be the fall of Johnson and his replacement by someone who can weather a bad headline or two. Its coming sooner than everybody thinks.
The economic numbers are going to be just insane.
The stage is already set for this. The current “mainstream” criticism is that HMG cares more about money than people’s lives and that’s why they want to lift the lockdown. However, when the economic reckoning comes along the blame will also go to HMG for not locking down early enough.
There’s no easy answers to anything in this current situation.
Johnson has spent the last eight weeks imposing the most draconian limits on personal freedom and liberty we have ever seen, accompanied by aggressive and intimidating propaganda telling us how we can live our lives
He cannot, he simply cannot suddenly start telling people to think for themselves. when he has spent the last eight weeks telling them to do the opposite at vast expense to the exchequer.
@DavidL that’s all well and good but when the Police are going to be given more powers to arbitrarily impose even greater fines, its only those who are unlucky who are going to be punished.
I would suggest only those being stupid. Like having a house party with multiple guests or large scale BBQs with people swirling about in close proximity. I find it genuinely bizarre that people want government to micro-manage their lives like this. Do people really think (a) that is appropriate and (b) that makes them safe?
Of course here in Scotland our FM still thinks that she does know best. Sigh.
Worst case she knows a lot more about position in Scotland than Boris.
Then why does she say;
1) The R number in Scotland is still too high to end lockdown and 2) I can't tell you what the R number is?
The R number is also too high in England and the folks there don't know the precise number either. So it's a reflection of Sturgeon's greater caution.
It's possible R is one or two tenths of a point higher in Scotland than England, but it's within the margin of error. In any case it is close to 1 and the possibility of the epidemic growing exponentially again if lockdown is eased.
So people have perfectly legitimate questions about what actions do and do not involve an acceptable level of risk, which with the best will in the world they are not equipped to answer alone.
Given that assigning everyone their own team of experts on 24 hour standby isn't practical, we are back to winging it.
Perhaps this debate is showing up some fundamental flaws in our education system?
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
Because, Phil me old mucker, actions taken as a result of thinking for yourself might be illegal in this new phase. And the police are about to have greater powers to sanction you if so.
I would be opposed to the Police getting involved unless something is egregious and clearly illegal.
Ahhh grasshopper. You are edging towards why we are so interested in all this. There is a new phase, I get it. We might be allowed to do more than previously, we'll wait to see the legislation. And when there is legislation the police will be empowered to enforce it. I would be interested to hear the legal distinction between egregious and illegal but I suspect you don't know it. Neither do I. Hence we need the law to tell us, and the police because it's not the police's job to take your advice about when they should get involved.
So hahaha one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks all a big joke for many PB-ers happily sitting with their families in big houses.
But for many people, perhaps some without the wherewithal to go to the primary legislation, this shit matters. It is the difference between things which will help or hinder their sanity.
Humble pie from me. I always think if you call something wrong - especially when it happens as infrequently as it does with yours truly - you should promptly admit the fact. Own the bad call rather than stay quiet and hope everyone forgets. So on that principle - garden centres. I was sure that their re-opening this week would be the centrepiece of Johnson's address to the nation. It wasn't. Garden centres were not even mentioned. I was wrong. Apologies to anybody whose hopes were raised or - worse - had made concrete plans based on my forecast.
Garden centres, cafes with outside tables (our local ones spent last week setting up outside, spacing out the tables, anticipating the widely trailed opening up) - these were the changes that almost, but didn't, get made.
The new message is intended to be less clear because there are more things you are allowed to do. The whole point is that we no longer need to "stay home". People can choose to do so, but they can also choose not to.
We're almost getting to the point where the press has such an infantilised view of the public that they'll be asking why the government doesn't wipe everyone's arse for them.
I'm not defending the slogan because it's not very good, but anything that leaves the decision making in the people's hands rather than in government hands was always going to be much less clear.
No, it's less than clear because they are trying to square the circle of the mess they have made in reconciling the decision - that things stay essentially as they are and we review in a couple of weeks time - with the pre-briefing of the decision that things were going to change.
Some things have changed, I can now go outdoors and sit in a park with my partner for a picnic without the threat of being moved on by the police. I can go and play golf. I can go and sit in my parents garden 2m away from them.
These are real benefits for me that weren't available last week.
They are simply recognising where the previous advice has proved both pointless and unworkable. Provided you are separate from others, there never was any good reason why you shouldn't sit outside. Doubtless the original regulations were drafted by people with gardens.
The “HMG only cares about money rather than people’s lives” criticism also seems to come from people with comfortable middle-class jobs who can easily work from home.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
Yep. Massive problem. With opposition parties and the unions playing holier-than-thou to further their own ends with no care whatsoever for the public finances - which are properly screwed.
What Johnson has shut down, he will have the devil's own job opening up.
Given reluctance of people to go back to work, opposition opportunism, social distancing rules and the extension of the furlough, a v shaped recovery is a mirage. Not only is debt ballooning but the deficit is opening up like the grand canyon. A size of deficit barely imaginable, and I daresay, almost impossible to recover.
I think we should look at our last calculation of the hock we are in, and add a nought.
Agreed. What can this populist government do? Opposition parties and unions are going to make hay with "nasty Tories" narrative, uncaring of the damage THEY are doing to our country by mischief-making in this way. The government should use its majority to make the decisions needed to get us out of this mess. But they lack the balls to be unpopular.
Out political system can`t cope with this. The end game may have to be some sort of national unity government.
The endgame will be the fall of Johnson and his replacement by someone who can weather a bad headline or two. Its coming sooner than everybody thinks.
The economic numbers are going to be just insane.
The stage is already set for this. The current “mainstream” criticism is that HMG cares more about money than people’s lives and that’s why they want to lift the lockdown. However, when the economic reckoning comes along the blame will also go to HMG for not locking down early enough.
There’s no easy answers to anything in this current situation.
What's the government's response? Delay the reckoning until September at even vaster expense.
After all, something might, you know, turn up......
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
For sure. But we have a law and a set of regulations that (endeavour to) tell people what to do.
Indeed the Regulations as drafted make it a specific offence not to follow a police direction to go home even if you aren't breaking the letter of the law - for example if you go for a second spell of outside exercise and the policeman or woman things you shouldn't.
Actually what is law and what is advice are not the same thing. Nor should they be.
EG the "only exercise once per day" was never in the law, but it most definitely was in the advice.
People should be trying to follow the advice and the advice should be better than the law and the Police should only get involved with when the law is broken. That way there should always be a gap between the people and the Police and not both overlapping in grey area edge cases.
The new message is intended to be less clear because there are more things you are allowed to do. The whole point is that we no longer need to "stay home". People can choose to do so, but they can also choose not to.
We're almost getting to the point where the press has such an infantilised view of the public that they'll be asking why the government doesn't wipe everyone's arse for them.
I'm not defending the slogan because it's not very good, but anything that leaves the decision making in the people's hands rather than in government hands was always going to be much less clear.
No, it's less than clear because they are trying to square the circle of the mess they have made in reconciling the decision - that things stay essentially as they are and we review in a couple of weeks time - with the pre-briefing of the decision that things were going to change.
Some things have changed, I can now go outdoors and sit in a park with my partner for a picnic without the threat of being moved on by the police. I can go and play golf. I can go and sit in my parents garden 2m away from them.
These are real benefits for me that weren't available last week.
As far an my wife and myself are concerned, of course, our son can visit us, but not bring his wife or that set of grandchildren. Er.......
After defending the government it's interesting to compare to Ireland. In essence the approaches are very similar. There are several different phases/levels to returning to normal. Changes will be reversed if R increases above 1.
However, in his speech Varadker had more detail about the changes that would happen at each phase and planned dates. Johnson had some dates and details, but missed the opportunity to tie them in with the ALERT levels.
Varadker then took his crib sheet with him to an RTÉ interview later that evening to answer questions and bat away silly gotcha questions, but Johnson avoids scrutiny as much as possible.
I don't think the government is being malevolent, as many of my facebook friends do, but its performance still looks below par.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
Yep. Massive problem. With opposition parties and the unions playing holier-than-thou to further their own ends with no care whatsoever for the public finances - which are properly screwed.
What Johnson has shut down, he will have the devil's own job opening up.
Given reluctance of people to go back to work, opposition opportunism, social distancing rules and the extension of the furlough, a v shaped recovery is a mirage. Not only is debt ballooning but the deficit is opening up like the grand canyon. A size of deficit barely imaginable, and I daresay, almost impossible to recover.
I think we should look at our last calculation of the hock we are in, and add a nought.
Agreed. What can this populist government do? Opposition parties and unions are going to make hay with "nasty Tories" narrative, uncaring of the damage THEY are doing to our country by mischief-making in this way. The government should use its majority to make the decisions needed to get us out of this mess. But they lack the balls to be unpopular.
Out political system can`t cope with this. The end game may have to be some sort of national unity government.
The endgame will be the fall of Johnson and his replacement by someone who can weather a bad headline or two. Its coming sooner than everybody thinks.
The economic numbers are going to be just insane.
The stage is already set for this. The current “mainstream” criticism is that HMG cares more about money than people’s lives and that’s why they want to lift the lockdown. However, when the economic reckoning comes along the blame will also go to HMG for not locking down early enough.
There’s no easy answers to anything in this current situation.
What's the government's response? Delay the reckoning until September at even vaster expense.
After all, something might, you know, turn up......
Some of my friends want lockdown to continue until we have a vaccine, even if that takes years. Any lifting of the lockdown is considered Boris risking the lives of people in the name of the economy...
The new message is intended to be less clear because there are more things you are allowed to do. The whole point is that we no longer need to "stay home". People can choose to do so, but they can also choose not to.
We're almost getting to the point where the press has such an infantilised view of the public that they'll be asking why the government doesn't wipe everyone's arse for them.
I'm not defending the slogan because it's not very good, but anything that leaves the decision making in the people's hands rather than in government hands was always going to be much less clear.
No, it's less than clear because they are trying to square the circle of the mess they have made in reconciling the decision - that things stay essentially as they are and we review in a couple of weeks time - with the pre-briefing of the decision that things were going to change.
Some things have changed, I can now go outdoors and sit in a park with my partner for a picnic without the threat of being moved on by the police. I can go and play golf. I can go and sit in my parents garden 2m away from them.
These are real benefits for me that weren't available last week.
True that's what it sounds like, but we will wait to see what the law says. Because the police, with their shiny set of new powers of increased sanction, will be ready to respond.
@DavidL that’s all well and good but when the Police are going to be given more powers to arbitrarily impose even greater fines, its only those who are unlucky who are going to be punished.
I would suggest only those being stupid. Like having a house party with multiple guests or large scale BBQs with people swirling about in close proximity. I find it genuinely bizarre that people want government to micro-manage their lives like this. Do people really think (a) that is appropriate and (b) that makes them safe?
Of course here in Scotland our FM still thinks that she does know best. Sigh.
Worst case she knows a lot more about position in Scotland than Boris.
Then why does she say;
1) The R number in Scotland is still too high to end lockdown and 2) I can't tell you what the R number is?
The R number is also too high in England and the folks there don't know the precise number either. So it's a reflection of Sturgeon's greater caution.
It's possible R is one or two tenths of a point higher in Scotland than England, but it's within the margin of error. In any case it is close to 1 and the possibility of the epidemic growing exponentially again if lockdown is eased.
The by death date hospital deaths figure is probably the best proxy for R in England, that number is falling by 30% WoW, which implies a community R of well below 1. I can imagine in care homes it's probably close to or above 1 though. That's not a reason to keep the whole country locked up for another 3 weeks.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
Yep. Massive problem. With opposition parties and the unions playing holier-than-thou to further their own ends with no care whatsoever for the public finances - which are properly screwed.
What Johnson has shut down, he will have the devil's own job opening up.
Given reluctance of people to go back to work, opposition opportunism, social distancing rules and the extension of the furlough, not only is the debt ballooning but the deficit is opening up like the grand canyon. A size of deficit barely imaginable, and I daresay, almost impossible to recover.
I think we should look at our last calculation of the hock we are in, and add a nought.
Things look like they are going to get worse before they get better. What Boris Johnson is doing could be described as "tough love". The opposition will withdraw support for the government if they have not done so already. The government has a large majority and most MPs in the government want to get on with opening up the economy. Hold on to your hats.
Mr. Battery, you could just as easily caricature PB Anti-Tories as being full of mindless criticism at everything said.
It might just be better to try and take as fair and balanced a view as possible, raising debating points and questions relevant to a given topic rather than seek to paint those who don't share your view as mindless herd animals without actually explaining why you disagree with them.
There is an important distinction to be made Mr Dancer, between "Anti-Tories", and "Anti-Boris-Johnson-and Dominic-Cumming's-Tories". The latter camp I fall in. The former I do not, although it can be argued that the former has been largely taken over in hostile merger by the latter.
My view, is that the government has done some good things (so-far) on business support, though most goes no further than every other European country. Their management from the health perspective, and general communications, has been nothing short of a joke. This is a reflection of the collection (with the exception of Gove) of lightweights and inexperienced yes-men that have been put in place so they do not in anyway threaten the inept PM. They will need to be held to account. This is the most amateurish government I can ever recall in my lifetime.
Some of the failings here are by civil servants. Some are failures of basic administration. Government ministers should have spotted them, of course.
Fair enough. Given that the function of the civil service is administration, rather than decision-making, I wonder if Mr Meeks could be more specific about the failings of the civil service? These would seem to be the implementation of a firm policy decision taken by the politicians in government.
I am ready to be persuaded that the civil service has failed us, but cannot think of any examples myself.
@DavidL that’s all well and good but when the Police are going to be given more powers to arbitrarily impose even greater fines, its only those who are unlucky who are going to be punished.
I would suggest only those being stupid. Like having a house party with multiple guests or large scale BBQs with people swirling about in close proximity. I find it genuinely bizarre that people want government to micro-manage their lives like this. Do people really think (a) that is appropriate and (b) that makes them safe?
Of course here in Scotland our FM still thinks that she does know best. Sigh.
Worst case she knows a lot more about position in Scotland than Boris.
Then why does she say;
1) The R number in Scotland is still too high to end lockdown and 2) I can't tell you what the R number is?
The R number is also too high in England and the folks there don't know the precise number either. So it's a reflection of Sturgeon's greater caution.
It's possible R is one or two tenths of a point higher in Scotland than England, but it's within the margin of error. In any case it is close to 1 and the possibility of the epidemic growing exponentially again if lockdown is eased.
The by death date hospital deaths figure is probably the best proxy for R in England, that number is falling by 30% WoW, which implies a community R of well below 1. I can imagine in care homes it's probably close to or above 1 though. That's not a reason to keep the whole country locked up for another 3 weeks.
Spot on.
And the kind of nuanced reply that will be lost on media hacks, especially Piers Morgan.
I read that Sunak is extending the furlough to September [snip] The message from the government is therefore this is a viable long term alternative.
One issue that isn't being debated enough, probably because it is a Kobayashi Maru test, is public transport.
How can you have social distancing on the tube/buses/trains?
Perhaps this means some sort of limited furlough scheme will have to be in place until a vaccine arrives.
Prescott's ban on parking spaces doesn't look so sensible now.
The largest usage of public transport (by far) is office workers and those working in the office work support jobs.
Since the government is keeping "WFH if possible" in place, this means that the vast majority of the rush hour on public transport will not return.
Office workers in large cities are going to be back to work around the same time as the nightclubs open - maybe the end of the year, or maybe not until after we have a vaccine.
There's going to be very little appetite for hundreds of thousands of City commuters to spend several hours a day (and vast amounts of money) in conditions in which it would be illegal to transport animals - despite the fact that many of them begrudgingly did it for decades until a couple of months ago.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
For sure. But we have a law and a set of regulations that (endeavour to) tell people what to do.
Indeed the Regulations as drafted make it a specific offence not to follow a police direction to go home even if you aren't breaking the letter of the law - for example if you go for a second spell of outside exercise and the policeman or woman things you shouldn't.
Actually what is law and what is advice are not the same thing. Nor should they be.
EG the "only exercise once per day" was never in the law, but it most definitely was in the advice.
People should be trying to follow the advice and the advice should be better than the law and the Police should only get involved with when the law is broken. That way there should always be a gap between the people and the Police and not both overlapping in grey area edge cases.
It was law in Wales but not in England - which was surely a cock up somewhere.
It's the government that set off down the road of trying to spell out the minutiae of what we can and cannot do - and that empowered the police to enforce whatever their understanding of it might be at any time. We haven't taken the Swedish route of endeavouring to trust our population's best judgement.
It seems to me that the bigger picture emerging is that both we Brits and our American friends are - for our different reasons - basking in our sense of better judgement and management than the rest of the world, when the developing picture from the data is that the UK and US will emerge worse hit than either Asia or continental Europe.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
The "Stay ALERT" slogan cannot make it clear what people are supposed to do* because it is a slogan for a period of time when what we are allowed to do will change as we move between the different ALERT levels.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Indeed. Why on earth do you need a slogan to tell you what to DO?
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
Because, Phil me old mucker, actions taken as a result of thinking for yourself might be illegal in this new phase. And the police are about to have greater powers to sanction you if so.
I would be opposed to the Police getting involved unless something is egregious and clearly illegal.
Ahhh grasshopper. You are edging towards why we are so interested in all this. There is a new phase, I get it. We might be allowed to do more than previously, we'll wait to see the legislation. And when there is legislation the police will be empowered to enforce it. I would be interested to hear the legal distinction between egregious and illegal but I suspect you don't know it. Neither do I. Hence we need the law to tell us, and the police because it's not the police's job to take your advice about when they should get involved.
So hahaha one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks all a big joke for many PB-ers happily sitting with their families in big houses.
But for many people, perhaps some without the wherewithal to go to the primary legislation, this shit matters. It is the difference between things which will help or hinder their sanity.
Again what is the law and what is the advice are not the same thing. Nor should they be. The law should be what is egregious and that should be what the Police get involved in.
So one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks etc - I would be amazed if any of that is in the law. Exercising twice a day wasn't and quite right too.
The law and the advice are not the same thing nor should they be.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Pasty taxes on fire outside the local Greggs. I watched clarifications ... glitter ... in the dark near Westminster Hall. All those moments will be lost in time, like a breaking ticker on Sky News. Time to die.
Thoughts: 1. Love the Thick of It comparison - it really is a real life re-enactment of that episode. 2. Love the "ITS VERY CLEAR" insistence from PB/FB Tories being roundly ridiculed by anyone with ears. 3. WY Cop Shop says "Fuck this we're offski". The singularly most dangerous thing I've read. I know the current "we've had enough of experts" version of the Tory party thinks its funny to blame the experts for their incompetence, but Maybot tried that at the police federation and it backfired badly 4. The sky is literally about to fall in on the government as scores of sizable businesses place a significant number of furloughed employees on notice of redundancy. There is literally nothing to reassure the hospitality industry of any kind of restoration. The travel and holiday industry was scuttled last night. If you run one of these companies the only change you may have of not losing the business is to lay everyone off and try to mothball things. Sunak could join in with the "nothing has changed" by making furlough and other schemes open ended and unlimited. Or else BOOM.
Actually, BUST. But otherwise, I agree with this post.
What is not at all clear to me (and my biggest concern) is what measures the government is arranging to keep the pandemic under control once lockdown lints further. What we have at the moment is plainly inadequate.
What we need is an organised, large scale and effective track/trace/isolate system. There is no sign this is even really in the works, which is astonishing given other countries have demonstrated how it might be done, and the massive benefits.
Plans to get nationwide mask wearing would also be good. I've seen some estimates that 90% mask compliance would reduce the number of cases by an order of magnitude (IOW, possibly as effective as a lockdown, at a fraction of the economic cost). Even if this is only a possibility (and there are strong indications from countries where mask wearing is at a very high level that it is), it ought to be actively pursued given the cost/benefit.
I think a lot of the problem is this government's inability to be transparent and straightforward. It seems the major change in policy is from "stay at home unless a keyworker" to "get back to work as soon as it's safe." Why not say so? Then the entire presentation could be on what needs to be done to make that work environment safe. Government would have answers on the key questions and businesses and employees would have time to put new arrangements in place.
Sorry do you really think that people with a business have not thought that when a return to work is allowed that changes will have to be made? There is so much stuff avialable online and there has been since the 24th March 2020. Or perhaps businesses just think that Furlough will continue until a vaccine is found.
I am saying that, as far as is possible to make out from this massive muddle, that the government's policy has changed. So be very clear about what the change actually is, let people know what is expected from them, answer questions they may have and give them time to implement those changes. This is basic stuff that the government is getting very wrong.
Which surely is entirely arbitrary, especially if you’re observing social distancing? Is the Government working on the assumption that people wont be able to resist a hug and therefore want to keep R at 1? If so, they need to just say that.
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The message from the government is therefore this is a viable long term alternative.
My view, is that the government has done some good things (so-far) on business support, though most goes no further than every other European country. Their management from the health perspective, and general communications, has been nothing short of a joke. This is a reflection of the collection (with the exception of Gove) of lightweights and inexperienced yes-men that have been put in place so they do not in anyway threaten the inept PM. They will need to be held to account.
This is the most amateurish government I can ever recall in my lifetime.
1) The R number in Scotland is still too high to end lockdown and
2) I can't tell you what the R number is?
They’ve not been stuck at home for weeks, they’ve not been put on furlough and are now worried about transitioning to more usual levels of benefits, if there isn’t a job to go back to. They’re not worried about issues of transport or childcare changing.
But they do care about seeing their parents, because it’s the one thing that’s actually affected the Lobby hacks themselves.
* Except insofar as it directs people to the ALERT level to follow the directions for the appropriate level.
Stay at Home worked because although it was not all-encompassing it was clear enough. Stay Alert is not, hence the need to try and tell people what it means. Play golf only with your own household / meet 1 parent only is a carry over from stage 4's Stay Home. Play golf / have a picnic because fresh air is good is from Stage 3.
The half stage is Stay at Home. Unless you don't want to. Then go outside. But only with the people you're at home with. Which sounds stupid and prompts the obvious questions. Which gives dumb cabinet secretaries (Raab FFS) the opportunity to make up "guidance" on the spot.
What was the point in setting out 5 levels of alert and then not using it? Had we moved to level 3 then the "household" rule would have been dropped, replaced with "social distancing from anyone". Which people can understand. Suggestion they didn't want to do this in case people gather in large groups. Like the government encouraged us all to do on VE day...
She needs to think about the damage being done to children's education. By August they will have been out of school for 5 months. How many will never re-engage? She needs to think about the damage being done to people on University courses. Distance learning is one thing but where is the exchange of ideas, the socialisation, student life? She needs to think about those suffering from depression and isolation, from medical conditions not being treated, from people worrying that that guarantee they granted over their house for the family business means they may be left homeless. Playing ultra safe is not a risk free option. It has a price and that price is increasingly prohibitive.
I stand by my prediction from over a month ago that the economic fallout from all of this will end up being the bigger story than the number of deaths. We are heading into a great depression the likes of which has never been seen in our lifetime, but people are still arguing about the number of tests or stupid "stay alert" slogans. Truly deckchairs on the titanic.
And its going to continue to do that by extending the furlough to September, if the Telegraph is right. Great news for what is left of Britain's tax base. Great news for our children and grandchildren who will have to pay back these enormous debts.
Don't have the nation gathered round the TV screens and then leave them hanging. Or be surprised that people ask what it all means.
If they had published the document, every other comment could have been - please refer to the new regulations.
Of course they were happy for people not to look too hard at the actual law previously (eg. on exercise, two people meeting outdoors, etc) so perhaps it might not change and that will also throw up questions.
Looking forward to 2pm and whether there are new laws to go with the new guidelines.
Not my fault you can't read.
But here's a picture for you:
Happy with that?
Encouraging them to re-open during the furlough means that a slower, more measured approach is possible.
And that goes for the other employee/business support measures
A classic example is Jonny Wilkinsons drop goal in the Rugby WC final in 2003. With under a minute to go, the whole team knew how to get him into a good drop goal position. Was that winging it? Yes, but they had also prepared for it.
Of course I am not happy with anyone dying of Covid anywhere but obviously the most likely place would be care homes where you have captive audience and majority have major illnesses so very susceptible.
You nastily tried to say more people died in Scottish Care Homes than England just to rubbish Scotland and fit your prejudices which was an OUT and OUT lie, now you try to obfuscate rather than admitting you made an error of judgement.
The possible contrary argument is that in general the Scottish public's health is better and so it's 'only' the really vulnerable who are suffering.
What is wrong with a slogan about actually thinking for yourself?
The crossover between people who became overnight experts in epidemiology but who can't understand what 'Stay alert' means is quite impressive.
Given reluctance of people to go back to work, opposition opportunism, social distancing rules and the extension of the furlough, a v shaped recovery is a mirage. Not only is debt ballooning but the deficit is opening up like the grand canyon. A size of deficit barely imaginable, and I daresay, almost impossible to recover.
I think we should look at our last calculation of the hock we are in, and add a nought.
Meanwhile, the 24h news hacks have nothing to do for five working hours as they await the PM’s statement to Parliament and the release of updated guidelines.
This morning is the perfect illustration of all that’s wrong with the media’s reporting of this crisis - it wouldn’t have been too difficult to simply lead with the PM’s statement last night and say that we are looking forward to this afternoon’s statement, but they’re literally incapable of holding for half a day without trying to make news out of nothing.
How can you have social distancing on the tube/buses/trains?
Perhaps this means some sort of limited furlough scheme will have to be in place until a vaccine arrives.
Prescott's ban on parking spaces doesn't look so sensible now.
We're also all very aware that our decisions aren't simply about our own appetite for risk but about what is best to limit the infection rate in the interests of the whole community.
So people have perfectly legitimate questions about what actions do and do not involve an acceptable level of risk, which with the best will in the world they are not equipped to answer alone.
Edited to add that: the "at least a couple of dozen very informed very smart regular posters" come from a variety of fields, greatly adding to the standard of (many) posts.
We're almost getting to the point where the press has such an infantilised view of the public that they'll be asking why the government doesn't wipe everyone's arse for them.
I'm not defending the slogan because it's not very good, but anything that leaves the decision making in the people's hands rather than in government hands was always going to be much less clear.
What else is lockdown if not a policy that shows the towering distrust and contempt the government has for the citizen?
I suspect we are looking at a 10-15% drop as a minimum possibly double that given that some industries that make up 10% of the economy are still closed
Out political system can`t cope with this. The end game may have to be some sort of national unity government.
The U.K. has a population density of 280 people per km2
France has a population density of 102 people per km2
Spain has a population density of 97 people per km2
Know what that means? That means, ( according to figures from google today) the U.K., despite having nearly 3 times (275%) the population density of France and (289%) that of Spain, has death figures which are only 8% more than France and 7.5% more than Spain.
Or do you dispute the facts?
Care Homes have been a disaster across the British Isles - even in jurisdictions that have handled COVID well.
* As with all of this we won't know the true answer for years - we've got to work with the imperfect data we have.
There is no way we could have had hundreds of thousands die and not have had a 6.4% fall in GDP.
Looking at the data, I think we could have gone into L3 fully but kept care homes and other sectors at L4 or L5.
Indeed the Regulations as drafted make it a specific offence not to follow a police direction to go home even if you aren't breaking the letter of the law - for example if you go for a second spell of outside exercise and the policeman or woman things you shouldn't.
The economic numbers are going to be just insane.
These are real benefits for me that weren't available last week.
Since the government is keeping "WFH if possible" in place, this means that the vast majority of the rush hour on public transport will not return.
Completely right.
People are at the point where they want to be told what to do because the virus is nasty and we'd rather shut ourselves away, get paid and not have to think for ourselves.
Well guess what? Life isn't like that. Time to suck it up.
There’s no easy answers to anything in this current situation.
He cannot, he simply cannot suddenly start telling people to think for themselves. when he has spent the last eight weeks telling them to do the opposite at vast expense to the exchequer.
It's possible R is one or two tenths of a point higher in Scotland than England, but it's within the margin of error. In any case it is close to 1 and the possibility of the epidemic growing exponentially again if lockdown is eased.
Perhaps this debate is showing up some fundamental flaws in our education system?
So hahaha one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks all a big joke for many PB-ers happily sitting with their families in big houses.
But for many people, perhaps some without the wherewithal to go to the primary legislation, this shit matters. It is the difference between things which will help or hinder their sanity.
After all, something might, you know, turn up......
EG the "only exercise once per day" was never in the law, but it most definitely was in the advice.
People should be trying to follow the advice and the advice should be better than the law and the Police should only get involved with when the law is broken. That way there should always be a gap between the people and the Police and not both overlapping in grey area edge cases.
Er.......
However, in his speech Varadker had more detail about the changes that would happen at each phase and planned dates. Johnson had some dates and details, but missed the opportunity to tie them in with the ALERT levels.
Varadker then took his crib sheet with him to an RTÉ interview later that evening to answer questions and bat away silly gotcha questions, but Johnson avoids scrutiny as much as possible.
I don't think the government is being malevolent, as many of my facebook friends do, but its performance still looks below par.
I am ready to be persuaded that the civil service has failed us, but cannot think of any examples myself.
And the kind of nuanced reply that will be lost on media hacks, especially Piers Morgan.
There's going to be very little appetite for hundreds of thousands of City commuters to spend several hours a day (and vast amounts of money) in conditions in which it would be illegal to transport animals - despite the fact that many of them begrudgingly did it for decades until a couple of months ago.
It's the government that set off down the road of trying to spell out the minutiae of what we can and cannot do - and that empowered the police to enforce whatever their understanding of it might be at any time. We haven't taken the Swedish route of endeavouring to trust our population's best judgement.
It seems to me that the bigger picture emerging is that both we Brits and our American friends are - for our different reasons - basking in our sense of better judgement and management than the rest of the world, when the developing picture from the data is that the UK and US will emerge worse hit than either Asia or continental Europe.
So one parent, two parents, golf, tiddlywinks etc - I would be amazed if any of that is in the law. Exercising twice a day wasn't and quite right too.
The law and the advice are not the same thing nor should they be.
https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1259770182714691586
But otherwise, I agree with this post.
What is not at all clear to me (and my biggest concern) is what measures the government is arranging to keep the pandemic under control once lockdown lints further. What we have at the moment is plainly inadequate.
What we need is an organised, large scale and effective track/trace/isolate system. There is no sign this is even really in the works, which is astonishing given other countries have demonstrated how it might be done, and the massive benefits.
Plans to get nationwide mask wearing would also be good. I've seen some estimates that 90% mask compliance would reduce the number of cases by an order of magnitude (IOW, possibly as effective as a lockdown, at a fraction of the economic cost). Even if this is only a possibility (and there are strong indications from countries where mask wearing is at a very high level that it is), it ought to be actively pursued given the cost/benefit.
Everything else is more or less just politics.
Is the Government working on the assumption that people wont be able to resist a hug and therefore want to keep R at 1? If so, they need to just say that.