There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
This is presumably just a minor screwup - seems pretty clear that it's one household, not one person. Since if you infect one of your parents, they will then infect the other, so you may as well just meet both at once and get it over with.
And what about the over 70s and the vulnerable? No sign, unless I have missed it, of any information for them.
I worry about how many of the people who can't comprehend what the word "alert" means may also be drivers on our roads. I understand I'm younger than average for this site and even I am only just old enough that I didn't have to do the hazard perception test but I understand the logic of it and have seen mocks of it done by friends.
If you're incapable of figuring out for yourself what alert means or what a hazard is then please, please, please hand in your driving licence. You're too much of a danger to be on our roads.
I was driving on the A3 on my way to work. There was a Coronavirus driving a red 1998 Nissan Micra at 30mph in the middle lane. It was swerving all over the place. I think it had been drinking. These viruses do not respect the Highway Code.
Thankfully the government told me to stay alert. If I handed had that precise advice I shudder to think what might have happened.
Yes a Micra swerving all over the place is a driving hazard.
Now think really hard and tell me what you think a coronavirus hazard could be?
If you're incapable of identifying a hazard that says more about your than the advice.
I have stayed alert and spotted a Coronavirus hazard, it made a broadcast last night.
Your sarcasm is super smart.
I'm sure if you go shopping this week and see someone stood in the shop coughing you'll get within 2 metres of them because you're incapable of thinking what a hazard is.
Or not, maybe you'll be alert to the hazard and not get within 2 metres of them.
I hope I can spot what they have touched and coughed on and if they just had a temperature, I will rely on my infrared vision. Everything will be fine, because it was just people coughing that caused this whole fiasco. 🤷♂️
Just because you can't spot 100% of every risk doesn't mean you can't spot any. 🤷🏻♂️
@Philip_Thompson your arrogance and condescendence is really on another level this morning. Your constant spinning for the government must be making you insecure.
I note that when he is called out when suggests impossible next steps he stops talking.
It really is a shame Vanilla doesn't offer an ignore button as this is the 3rd day I've replied to half baked details from him (today he forgot Childcare was closed, last week it was knowing more about IT projects than 2 people who earn their living fixing them).
I didn't forget childcare is closed I tried to be helpful. Its a difficult situation and I'm sure people will be making difficult decisions.
As for IT I never said I knew more than anyone else. I said that I would be surprised if they hadn't thought about the problem - and I said that if it didn't work then that would surely be discovered this week in the Beta test and they would go to a Plan B. Given that it seems the problem has been discovered in the Beta test and they have gone to Plan B then how was I wrong please?
Because our argument was that it was never going to work and why the project got to this state, more than the testing. Catching it in user acceptance testing is very expensive in both project costs, you've lost 2 weeks and time lost (it's going to cost £2-3bn in additional furlough costs).
You can meet anyone in the park if socially distanced. FFS this is such nonsense.
Much simpler not to attend to minute detail, because it isn't possible to lay down unambiguous advice about multi-variables an a side of A4 or a ten minute talk. The principles are however clear: the purpose is to limit the spread of infection; the law is that you can leave your home if you have a 'reasonable excuse'; the advice gives indications of what the government thinks at any one time is a 'reasonable excuse' - and seeing parents outside while socially distancing clearly is.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
They'll never get over Brexit. The incredible Sulks
He was the man who didn't understand how close Dover was to Calais. Why they send such an obviously incompetent moron out to bat for the Government beats me.
I don't get it. He is evidently not a moron (a quick glance at his CV confirms this) and actually I have been impressed with his demeanour throughout this crisis.
That said, he talks an absolute load of bollocks which people could easily take as proof that he is indeed a moron.
I think it is just that once a part of government you agree to abide by all the illogicalities and idiocies that that government propounds. And this is what we are seeing.
Does Raab go home and think "job well done" or does he think "dear god what have I said"?
A few economists have studied previous pandemics and browsing those a truism emerges - it is not public health measures that damage the economy, it is the disease itself, because it is the disease that determines the confidence of the people to go about their business once they are allowed.
This truism is going to get a thorough testing this time, but the lack of confidence apparent now does not auger well - if lockdown were released tomorrow in full, people would not emerge in huge numbers and the economy would not return to a new normal. Successfully controlling the virus is the only surefire way back to that normality.
Maybe certain sections of the media would be better off reporting what the government are actually saying “Stay Alert”, rather than trying to make nonsensical micro-stories out of nothing.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
@Philip_Thompson your arrogance and condescendence is really on another level this morning. Your constant spinning for the government must be making you insecure.
I note that when he is called out when suggests impossible next steps he stops talking.
It really is a shame Vanilla doesn't offer an ignore button as this is the 3rd day I've replied to half baked details from him (today he forgot Childcare was closed, last week it was knowing more about IT projects than 2 people who earn their living fixing them).
I didn't forget childcare is closed I tried to be helpful. Its a difficult situation and I'm sure people will be making difficult decisions.
As for IT I never said I knew more than anyone else. I said that I would be surprised if they hadn't thought about the problem - and I said that if it didn't work then that would surely be discovered this week in the Beta test and they would go to a Plan B. Given that it seems the problem has been discovered in the Beta test and they have gone to Plan B then how was I wrong please?
Because our argument was that it was never going to work and why the project got to this state, more than the testing. Catching it in user acceptance testing is very expensive in both project costs, you've lost 2 weeks and time lost (it's going to cost £2-3bn in additional furlough costs).
Indeed it would have been great to have spotted this earlier but my point was that the app was already complete by the time people were pointing this out loudly here at least so they may as well have the Beta Test while working on a Plan B.
It would be great to prevent all mistakes but its not going to happen. I'd rather a mistake is recognised as a mistake and a Plan B followed than people get so obsessed about worrying about u-turns or getting the sack if they make a mistake that they plow on regardless and deny there was one.
I wouldn't call myself a Boris loyalist. I pretty much loathed him before the GE.
However, most of the flak he's taking is because people are afraid of the virus. Sticking indoors on 80% pay felt pretty safe for a lot of people. Suddenly we're being asked to begin the tentative baby steps back to life. It frightens a lot of people.
But it's got to be done.
On here I would say most of the praise he is receiving on PB is because people are sh*t-scared of the virus. Normally critical thinkers have turned in to the government's biggest fans. Not surprising because when one is scared one typically seeks to accept authority.
I would suggest two points in answer. Firstly I get the impression that many people on here are not necessarily scared for themselves but for elder relatives and friends. Most people I have come across in my life - and I do believe it applies on here just as much - are far more willing to take risks for themselves than they are for their loved ones.
Secondly I think you will find that many of the critical thinkers - and that does include most commentators on here - already have a clear idea of how they will behave irrespective of what the authorities say. The fact that the authorities' actions reinforce the effectiveness of their own self imposed isolation and make it more likely there will be a reasonable outcome to this crisis is the reason why they generally support the lockdown and are concerned about it being lifted too soon.
This doesn't make us Government fans - I have said on here a number of times that I think we should be looking at criminal investigations when it comes to the care home fiasco - it just means that as long as the Government continues to take actions that limit the effects of the virus then some of us will continue to support them.
A few economists have studied previous pandemics and browsing those a truism emerges - it is not public health measures that damage the economy, it is the disease itself, because it is the disease that determines the confidence of the people to go about their business once they are allowed.
This truism is going to get a thorough testing this time, but the lack of confidence apparent now does not auger well - if lockdown were released tomorrow in full, people would not emerge in huge numbers and the economy would not return to a new normal. Successfully controlling the virus is the only surefire way back to that normality.
I
This is why I think we're in for a sustained depression. People are going to be terrified to go outside and spend.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Maybe certain sections of the media would be better off reporting what the government are actually saying “Stay Alert”, rather than trying to make nonsensical micro-stories out of nothing.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
That is the spin put on it by many and it would be great news if it were so.
Yet see the Rob Powell quote about the park, why are the government making such precise nonsensical rules if we are supposed to take responsibility from our own safety.
We've established in the past that you post these as criticisms never just for info, but what about this one is critical? There is a lack of clarity at present and that appears to be a way to improve it.
Still, it makes more sense than criticising a lack of clarity and the release of any guidance to reduce that lack of clarity.
We can take what we want from the info. You presumably think it OK to make a major imminent announcement apparently without having thought through any of the detail. Others have a different opinion.
The desperate LAST NIGHT WAS PERFECT comments on here are truly baffling. Lets be generous to the government for a minute and assume that once we get to tomorrow night with the new SI and the new guidance that it all makes logical sense and is clear and unambiguous.
Are PB Tories really saying that the messaging from Downing Street has been up to scratch? The waffling "I'm making a big announcement" response by Johnson to Starmer's skewering at PMQs. The briefing to friendly press that LOCKDOWN LIBERTY is here and today we'd be back in the pub beer gardens. The have a party/don't have a party VE Day fiasco. The "look nobody said there would be a liberty from lockdown" announcements of Friday afternoon. The go to work don't go to work" speech last night prompting mass confusion from friendly hacks. And the painful contradiction of the PM's contradictions this morning by the FSS.
Its genuinely the worst possible shambles it could have been. You've got to have HYUFD / IDS (are they the same person) levels of disdain / blinkers to think it went well.
@DavidL that’s all well and good but when the Police are going to be given more powers to arbitrarily impose even greater fines, its only those who are unlucky who are going to be punished.
@Philip_Thompson your arrogance and condescendence is really on another level this morning. Your constant spinning for the government must be making you insecure.
I note that when he is called out when suggests impossible next steps he stops talking.
It really is a shame Vanilla doesn't offer an ignore button as this is the 3rd day I've replied to half baked details from him (today he forgot Childcare was closed, last week it was knowing more about IT projects than 2 people who earn their living fixing them).
I didn't forget childcare is closed I tried to be helpful. Its a difficult situation and I'm sure people will be making difficult decisions.
As for IT I never said I knew more than anyone else. I said that I would be surprised if they hadn't thought about the problem - and I said that if it didn't work then that would surely be discovered this week in the Beta test and they would go to a Plan B. Given that it seems the problem has been discovered in the Beta test and they have gone to Plan B then how was I wrong please?
Because our argument was that it was never going to work and why the project got to this state, more than the testing. Catching it in user acceptance testing is very expensive in both project costs, you've lost 2 weeks and time lost (it's going to cost £2-3bn in additional furlough costs).
Indeed it would have been great to have spotted this earlier but my point was that the app was already complete by the time people were pointing this out loudly here at least so they may as well have the Beta Test while working on a Plan B.
It would be great to prevent all mistakes but its not going to happen. I'd rather a mistake is recognised as a mistake and a Plan B followed than people get so obsessed about worrying about u-turns or getting the sack if they make a mistake that they plow on regardless and deny there was one.
Most of the time you would have plan b ready to go - especially if the cost of plan b was £500,000 and the cost of a delay £2bn a week.
But hey what do I know - I'm an expert in that field.
This depends on whether the encounter is a 'gathering'. I think the government is telling us that small, socially distanced family encounters in a public place are not a 'gathering'. The rule (2020 Regulations) bans gatherings of more than two 'in a public place' so your garden is not affected. Three or more can assemble there as long as social distancing is observed and everyone has a 'reasonable excuse' for not being at their own premises.
"we hope people will act on this week" does not mean "you must go to work tomorrow" either.
First step is employers need to do risk assessments and then they need to contact their employees. Unlikely that will all be done before Wednesday anyway unless they were already working on it.
And so no, this is not the time simply to end the lockdown this week.
Instead we are taking the first careful steps to modify our measures.
And the first step is a change of emphasis that we hope that people will act on this week.
We said that you should work from home if you can, and only go to work if you must.
We now need to stress that anyone who can’t work from home, for instance those in construction or manufacturing, should be actively encouraged to go to work.
The desperate LAST NIGHT WAS PERFECT comments on here are truly baffling. Lets be generous to the government for a minute and assume that once we get to tomorrow night with the new SI and the new guidance that it all makes logical sense and is clear and unambiguous.
Are PB Tories really saying that the messaging from Downing Street has been up to scratch? The waffling "I'm making a big announcement" response by Johnson to Starmer's skewering at PMQs. The briefing to friendly press that LOCKDOWN LIBERTY is here and today we'd be back in the pub beer gardens. The have a party/don't have a party VE Day fiasco. The "look nobody said there would be a liberty from lockdown" announcements of Friday afternoon. The go to work don't go to work" speech last night prompting mass confusion from friendly hacks. And the painful contradiction of the PM's contradictions this morning by the FSS.
Its genuinely the worst possible shambles it could have been. You've got to have HYUFD / IDS (are they the same person) levels of disdain / blinkers to think it went well.
I don't know who's suggesting things are perfect, I don't think anyone is. I certainly don't think any of this is perfect.
As for the announcement being in response to "Starmer's skewering" - no, just no. Starmer wasn't skewering him and the announcement had already been announced. In fact The Speaker had already complained about the fact the announcement was happening on TV on a Sunday rather than in Parliament which is why Boris referred to that and made a point of addressing that to The Speaker in the reply. It wasn't about Starmer.
@DavidL that’s all well and good but when the Police are going to be given more powers to arbitrarily impose even greater fines, its only those who are unlucky who are going to be punished.
I would suggest only those being stupid. Like having a house party with multiple guests or large scale BBQs with people swirling about in close proximity. I find it genuinely bizarre that people want government to micro-manage their lives like this. Do people really think (a) that is appropriate and (b) that makes them safe?
Of course here in Scotland our FM still thinks that she does know best. Sigh.
@DavidL that’s all well and good but when the Police are going to be given more powers to arbitrarily impose even greater fines, its only those who are unlucky who are going to be punished.
Unlucky and unprivileged.
If you are a senior govt adviser the police will see your actions breaking the rules as "plainly disappointing" but not take any action.
@DavidL that’s all well and good but when the Police are going to be given more powers to arbitrarily impose even greater fines, its only those who are unlucky who are going to be punished.
I would suggest only those being stupid. Like having a house party with multiple guests or large scale BBQs with people swirling about in close proximity. I find it genuinely bizarre that people want government to micro-manage their lives like this. Do people really think (a) that is appropriate and (b) that makes them safe?
Of course here in Scotland our FM still thinks that she does know best. Sigh.
People don't want the government to manage their lives. They want the government to manage other people's lives.
Yes I agree with the thread. It was a mistake for Johnson to suggest that people return to work today. It becomes a lockdown in name only if people follow that. We were late to lockdown and we are being encouraged to come out of it too early when the virus is still circulating in significant if reduced numbers in the community and the protection and tracking systems are far from being in place. It seems to be a recipe for a second resurgence.
Meanwhile they're still missing the opportunity to ease some utterly pointless restrictions in any meaningful way. The blanket "with members of your own household only" applying to sports is ridiculous for some sports. I'll be allowed to walk around a golf course on a prescribed route but only if I am on my own and provided that I keep 15 minutes walk behind the person in front of me, basically not being within shouting distance of another soul the whole time. So just 4 people per hour allowed to play golf. They might as well not have bothered.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Pasty taxes on fire outside the local Greggs. I watched clarifications ... glitter ... in the dark near Westminster Hall. All those moments will be lost in time, like a breaking ticker on Sky News. Time to die.
@CarlottaVance Still struggling to find proof re your lies on care homes I see, I presume the numbers do not support your claims on several previous threads.
You're ok with more than half your deaths in care homes?
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Question - if its impossible for the government to micro manage everything then why does your profession exist? The law is literally micro management. Look at driving - a long list of things you MUST and MUST NOT do plus other things as guidance. The police are very clear that they will prosecute you if they catch you doing the long list of prohibited things. In this case the PM says the prohibited list is A, the FSS says its B, they'll publish 50 pages of C, and then a SI that is D. Its not wonder the police have said "this is unenforceable".
@Philip_Thompson your arrogance and condescendence is really on another level this morning. Your constant spinning for the government must be making you insecure.
I note that when he is called out when suggests impossible next steps he stops talking.
It really is a shame Vanilla doesn't offer an ignore button as this is the 3rd day I've replied to half baked details from him (today he forgot Childcare was closed, last week it was knowing more about IT projects than 2 people who earn their living fixing them).
I didn't forget childcare is closed I tried to be helpful. Its a difficult situation and I'm sure people will be making difficult decisions.
As for IT I never said I knew more than anyone else. I said that I would be surprised if they hadn't thought about the problem - and I said that if it didn't work then that would surely be discovered this week in the Beta test and they would go to a Plan B. Given that it seems the problem has been discovered in the Beta test and they have gone to Plan B then how was I wrong please?
Because our argument was that it was never going to work and why the project got to this state, more than the testing. Catching it in user acceptance testing is very expensive in both project costs, you've lost 2 weeks and time lost (it's going to cost £2-3bn in additional furlough costs).
Indeed it would have been great to have spotted this earlier but my point was that the app was already complete by the time people were pointing this out loudly here at least so they may as well have the Beta Test while working on a Plan B.
It would be great to prevent all mistakes but its not going to happen. I'd rather a mistake is recognised as a mistake and a Plan B followed than people get so obsessed about worrying about u-turns or getting the sack if they make a mistake that they plow on regardless and deny there was one.
Most of the time you would have plan b ready to go - especially if the cost of plan b was £500,000 and the cost of a delay £2bn a week.
But hey what do I know - I'm an expert in that field.
I agree with you. I said they should have and be working on a Plan B.
I see no reason why Plan A and Plan B can't be worked on simultaneously. That's exactly what Gates is doing with the vaccines, he's working on Plans A, B, C, D, E, F, G and H simultaneously.
I have no issue with Plan A failing. I have an issue with there not being a Plan B if it does.
@Philip_Thompson your arrogance and condescendence is really on another level this morning. Your constant spinning for the government must be making you insecure.
I note that when he is called out when suggests impossible next steps he stops talking.
It really is a shame Vanilla doesn't offer an ignore button as this is the 3rd day I've replied to half baked details from him (today he forgot Childcare was closed, last week it was knowing more about IT projects than 2 people who earn their living fixing them).
I didn't forget childcare is closed I tried to be helpful. Its a difficult situation and I'm sure people will be making difficult decisions.
As for IT I never said I knew more than anyone else. I said that I would be surprised if they hadn't thought about the problem - and I said that if it didn't work then that would surely be discovered this week in the Beta test and they would go to a Plan B. Given that it seems the problem has been discovered in the Beta test and they have gone to Plan B then how was I wrong please?
Because our argument was that it was never going to work and why the project got to this state, more than the testing. Catching it in user acceptance testing is very expensive in both project costs, you've lost 2 weeks and time lost (it's going to cost £2-3bn in additional furlough costs).
Indeed it would have been great to have spotted this earlier but my point was that the app was already complete by the time people were pointing this out loudly here at least so they may as well have the Beta Test while working on a Plan B.
It would be great to prevent all mistakes but its not going to happen. I'd rather a mistake is recognised as a mistake and a Plan B followed than people get so obsessed about worrying about u-turns or getting the sack if they make a mistake that they plow on regardless and deny there was one.
Most of the time you would have plan b ready to go - especially if the cost of plan b was £500,000 and the cost of a delay £2bn a week.
But hey what do I know - I'm an expert in that field.
Guess what - it sounds like the IoW trial is close to being abandoned, with all efforts going to the Plan B they should have moved to weeks ago.
I’ve generally been a supporter of the actions of authorities in the last few months, knowing that it’s very easy to criticise with hindsight - but this one was pro-active rather than reactive, and against the advise of pretty much the whole industry.
On the grand scheme of things here is what appears to be a trivial thing at this point in time although it is causing havoc in the travel industry currently:
Holiday companies (with the support of ABTA and ATOL giving extra protection) are trying to encourage people not to take refunds but to delay their trips. However travel insurance for a rearranged trip (with some very limited exceptions) will not cover Covid 19 whereas you would have been covered if the insurance was taken out prior to mid March.
Nobody in their right mind would travel without this cover, yet it is entirely sensible for insurance companies not to provide it.
For this reason I took a refund on my holiday to the USA rather than rescheduling, although I would have preferred to help out by travel company by rescheduling as I still want and plan to go.
Not sure what the solution is to this. I don't want to risk the cost of being on a ventilator in the States even when travel has opened up again.
@DavidL that’s all well and good but when the Police are going to be given more powers to arbitrarily impose even greater fines, its only those who are unlucky who are going to be punished.
I would suggest only those being stupid. Like having a house party with multiple guests or large scale BBQs with people swirling about in close proximity. I find it genuinely bizarre that people want government to micro-manage their lives like this. Do people really think (a) that is appropriate and (b) that makes them safe?
Of course here in Scotland our FM still thinks that she does know best. Sigh.
The govt is micromanaging peoples lives through the rules!
Again for the middle classes its not a problem, we can generally talk our way out of a situation, and can afford to pay the fines.
For those struggling, the police are far more likely to escalate towards fines, and they cannot afford to pay them.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
David, they could have made a better job of it, instead he just proves he is all flim flam and has surrounded himself with idiots. The messaging as ever with this lot was vague and confusing. They really are a poor lot.
The PM has clearly signalled the furlough scheme is ending. Soon, a lot of businesses will have very serious decisions to make. This could lead to many people losing their jobs and incomes. That will have major political and economic consequences. Shit’s about to get real.
Join a union if you can. As per @CarlottaVance on the previous thread, think carefully about your choice. One may be best avoided.
Economy necessity has clearly signalled the furlough scheme is ending. Shit's been real since day one. Anyone thinking otherwise has been thick as a brick.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Brilliant post. Absolutely spot on.
You don't think a bit of planning might be useful? Some guidance on how to tackle the change? Clarity on what's being asked for? Answers to some basic questions?
Someone on my estate had their parents round for a children’s birthday party this week, with no social distancing. Yes its against the guidelines and the law, and yes it risks transmission between households but in the grand scheme of things? I personally do not have a problem with it.
You cant pretend to be treating people like adults who are aware of risks and then also start increasing fines.
If only. You can't meet in a (non-household) group of two in a park that is described as a "golf course", even if you're staying 2 metres apart, because you're then deemed to be doing "sport".
This depends on whether the encounter is a 'gathering'. I think the government is telling us that small, socially distanced family encounters in a public place are not a 'gathering'. The rule (2020 Regulations) bans gatherings of more than two 'in a public place' so your garden is not affected. Three or more can assemble there as long as social distancing is observed and everyone has a 'reasonable excuse' for not being at their own premises.
As I keep saying it will be interesting/critical to see if and how the SI is amended or replaced before comment can be made.
It's that catch-all "reasonable excuse". If that goes then that is a big deal.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Brilliant post. Absolutely spot on.
You don't think a bit of planning might be useful? Some guidance on how to tackle the change? Clarity on what's being asked for? Answers to some basic questions?
Even if the answer is: “decide for yourself, being sensible given the risks”.
That is not (yet) the government’s position, even if you think it should be.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Oi, Boris. Print this out. Read it to the House. Sit down.
Calling the Guardian and Mirror "others" while dismissing the others as "loyalists" is a rather interesting choice.
Boris could have announced the elimination of COVID19 and a cure for cancer and the Mirror would have found a way to be critical.
Yes , amazing lack of self awareness
Reminds me of the occasion that Paul Staines was introduced on a program as the "The Right Wing blogger.." together with the "journalist x" - who was a Guardian hack of the very left variety, IIRC.
Staines response - "Very good to be here with left wing journalist x"
PM makes a speech: PB Tories think it is fantastic and full of clarity
Everyone else: questions
PB Tories: fantastic and full of clarity, why can't you all just understand?
Rinse and repeat
I actually think its the best site for analysis of politics out there, and is generally at least several days ahead of the mainstream media. Of course not everyone is my cup of tea, but why should they be - and there are at least a couple of dozen very informed very smart regular posters.
Mr. Battery, you could just as easily caricature PB Anti-Tories as being full of mindless criticism at everything said.
It might just be better to try and take as fair and balanced a view as possible, raising debating points and questions relevant to a given topic rather than seek to paint those who don't share your view as mindless herd animals without actually explaining why you disagree with them.
Someone on my estate had their parents round for a children’s birthday party this week, with no social distancing. Yes its against the guidelines and the law, and yes it risks transmission between households but in the grand scheme of things? I personally do not have a problem with it.
You cant pretend to be treating people like adults who are aware of risks and then also start increasing fines.
I agree with you. I've been arguing to treat people like adults all along. Yes there are risks, yes there are issues but we need to be alert to the risks and make our own decisions balancing those risks.
Personally we cancelled our daughter's birthday party and celebrated it via video chats with her relatives but I understand not everyone's going to be the same. People need to make their own decisions.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Brilliant post. Absolutely spot on.
You don't think a bit of planning might be useful? Some guidance on how to tackle the change? Clarity on what's being asked for? Answers to some basic questions?
60-page document out today. You don't think it might be worth reading that?
If only. You can't meet in a (non-household) group of two in a park that is described as a "golf course", even if you're staying 2 metres apart, because you're then deemed to be doing "sport".
What is it they say about golf ruining a good four mile walk..?
If only. You can't meet in a (non-household) group of two in a park that is described as a "golf course", even if you're staying 2 metres apart, because you're then deemed to be doing "sport".
You can play golf socially distanced on a golf course
Didn’t the government prepare strawmen? They should have answers to most of these everyday questions at their fingertips if they had done so.
Sometimes questions are not really questions.
“Can I meet both my parents together?” is a question. The government should have a ready answer, even if the answer is: “decide for yourself”. It doesn’t.
Oh dear, those of us who always knew Boris Johnson was unfit for the office he now holds are being proven right every day to a level that even I thought impossible. His "address" (more like a ramble) was an embarrassment to him and those that have blindly followed him. Back of a fag packet ideas might be ok when you are Mayor of London, but they are not appropriate for a Prime Minister in a time of crisis. Once again, thanks to Boris Johnson, and his less than intelligent fanbois, Britain is the laughing stock of the world. The only western country with a more ludicrous "leader" is the United States.
Of course, Bozo and Trump are not really leaders. They are jokes from reality TV and game shows, but the only person really laughing is Vladimir Putin.
Oh dear, those of us who always knew Boris Johnson was unfit for the office he now holds are being proven right every day to a level that even I thought impossible. His "address" (more like a ramble) was an embarrassment to him and those that have blindly followed him. Back of a fag packet ideas might be ok when you are Mayor of London, but they are not appropriate for a Prime Minister in a time of crisis. Once again, thanks to Boris Johnson, and his less than intelligent fanbois, Britain is the laughing stock of the world. The only western country with a more ludicrous "leader" is the United States.
Of course, Bozo and Trump are not really leaders. They are jokes from reality TV and game shows, but the only person really laughing is Vladimir Putin.
The speech was not the problem, though it was no more than adequate. The evident lack of deeper thinking behind it is the problem,.
Mr. Battery, you could just as easily caricature PB Anti-Tories as being full of mindless criticism at everything said.
It might just be better to try and take as fair and balanced a view as possible, raising debating points and questions relevant to a given topic rather than seek to paint those who don't share your view as mindless herd animals without actually explaining why you disagree with them.
It was tongue-in-cheek but fair point in general.
Some Tories here are reasonable, others are not. The same for lefties.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Brilliant post. Absolutely spot on.
You don't think a bit of planning might be useful? Some guidance on how to tackle the change? Clarity on what's being asked for? Answers to some basic questions?
Even if the answer is: “decide for yourself, being sensible given the risks”.
That is not (yet) the government’s position, even if you think it should be.
Its not going to be the government's advice no.
The government's advice should be best practice relevant for the situation as whole for the country while people make their own decisions based upon that. I hope we're never in a position where we need the Prime Minister to do all our thinking for us.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
David, they could have made a better job of it, instead he just proves he is all flim flam and has surrounded himself with idiots. The messaging as ever with this lot was vague and confusing. They really are a poor lot.
Thats better that your disgusting comment earlier even if its just your opinion.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Brilliant post. Absolutely spot on.
You don't think a bit of planning might be useful? Some guidance on how to tackle the change? Clarity on what's being asked for? Answers to some basic questions?
Even if the answer is: “decide for yourself, being sensible given the risks”.
That is not (yet) the government’s position, even if you think it should be.
Heres some answers for how to work on a Construction Site
@DavidL that’s all well and good but when the Police are going to be given more powers to arbitrarily impose even greater fines, its only those who are unlucky who are going to be punished.
I would suggest only those being stupid. Like having a house party with multiple guests or large scale BBQs with people swirling about in close proximity. I find it genuinely bizarre that people want government to micro-manage their lives like this. Do people really think (a) that is appropriate and (b) that makes them safe?
Of course here in Scotland our FM still thinks that she does know best. Sigh.
David, typical Tory viewpoint , SNPBAD. Worst case she knows a lot more about position in Scotland than Boris. He is so twisted he will not even involve the devolved nations in discussions as he thinks he is so clever he knows it all and can treat devolved nations like crap. If I had a choice of who I would listen to it would be anyone but Boris, Sturgeon at least sounds like a grown up.
Oh dear, those of us who always knew Boris Johnson was unfit for the office he now holds are being proven right every day to a level that even I thought impossible. His "address" (more like a ramble) was an embarrassment to him and those that have blindly followed him. Back of a fag packet ideas might be ok when you are Mayor of London, but they are not appropriate for a Prime Minister in a time of crisis. Once again, thanks to Boris Johnson, and his less than intelligent fanbois, Britain is the laughing stock of the world. The only western country with a more ludicrous "leader" is the United States.
Of course, Bozo and Trump are not really leaders. They are jokes from reality TV and game shows, but the only person really laughing is Vladimir Putin.
"Oh dear, those of us who always knew Boris Johnson was unfit for the office he now holds"
Yep I think that accurately sums up your critical thinking (or rather lack of it).
PM makes a speech: PB Tories think it is fantastic and full of clarity
Everyone else: questions
PB Tories: fantastic and full of clarity, why can't you all just understand?
Rinse and repeat
I actually think its the best site for analysis of politics out there, and is generally at least several days ahead of the mainstream media. Of course not everyone is my cup of tea, but why should they be - and there are at least a couple of dozen very informed very smart regular posters.
The PB Tory meme is genuinely one of the weakest shitposts I've ever seen on the internet.
I mean now that we've declared Ed Miliband emperor for life, why are we still even having this debate?
I wouldn't call myself a Boris loyalist. I pretty much loathed him before the GE.
However, most of the flak he's taking is because people are afraid of the virus. Sticking indoors on 80% pay felt pretty safe for a lot of people. Suddenly we're being asked to begin the tentative baby steps back to life. It frightens a lot of people.
But it's got to be done.
On here I would say most of the praise he is receiving on PB is because people are sh*t-scared of the virus. Normally critical thinkers have turned in to the government's biggest fans. Not surprising because when one is scared one typically seeks to accept authority.
I would suggest two points in answer. Firstly I get the impression that many people on here are not necessarily scared for themselves but for elder relatives and friends. Most people I have come across in my life - and I do believe it applies on here just as much - are far more willing to take risks for themselves than they are for their loved ones.
Secondly I think you will find that many of the critical thinkers - and that does include most commentators on here - already have a clear idea of how they will behave irrespective of what the authorities say. The fact that the authorities' actions reinforce the effectiveness of their own self imposed isolation and make it more likely there will be a reasonable outcome to this crisis is the reason why they generally support the lockdown and are concerned about it being lifted too soon.
This doesn't make us Government fans - I have said on here a number of times that I think we should be looking at criminal investigations when it comes to the care home fiasco - it just means that as long as the Government continues to take actions that limit the effects of the virus then some of us will continue to support them.
It appears that people give the govt a free pass more than they ordinarily would although that might be just partisanship, irrespective of the content.
I also agree about people on here having set ideas about what they will do (I fall into that category). I just can't help feeling that those most supportive of the government are those who are very comfortable with things however they are.
That may be fair enough but as a corollary to my points, the concern about the virus means that they might not stop to think of the wider implications of government announcements and policy, as it affects a broader section of society (which, being mainly pale, male and stale, PB does not represent).
It has induced a selfishness which does people no credit.
Winging it is a good thing. You cannot prepare for every eventuality.
(Which is why centrally planned economies always fail)
Well said.
The divide here in opinions doesn't seem to be on a Tory/anti-Tory split but a subtler difference of a "People can think for themselves"/"the government must have all the answers" split.
This depends on whether the encounter is a 'gathering'. I think the government is telling us that small, socially distanced family encounters in a public place are not a 'gathering'. The rule (2020 Regulations) bans gatherings of more than two 'in a public place' so your garden is not affected. Three or more can assemble there as long as social distancing is observed and everyone has a 'reasonable excuse' for not being at their own premises.
They are giving out mixed messages as the great Bozo did not discuss the plans with his clowns and so they make it up when asked questions and we see the resulting mixed messages which just cause confusion.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Brilliant post. Absolutely spot on.
You don't think a bit of planning might be useful? Some guidance on how to tackle the change? Clarity on what's being asked for? Answers to some basic questions?
60-page document out today. You don't think it might be worth reading that?
Someone on my estate had their parents round for a children’s birthday party this week, with no social distancing. Yes its against the guidelines and the law, and yes it risks transmission between households but in the grand scheme of things? I personally do not have a problem with it.
You cant pretend to be treating people like adults who are aware of risks and then also start increasing fines.
In theory there are quite strict laws about misuse of drugs. In reality, it takes a lot to get done:
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Some people don't want to take any responsibility.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
Indeed I've heard people complain elsewhere "Why should I go back to work? I'm happy at home on 80%" as if that's a viable long term alternative.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Brilliant post. Absolutely spot on.
You don't think a bit of planning might be useful? Some guidance on how to tackle the change? Clarity on what's being asked for? Answers to some basic questions?
Even if the answer is: “decide for yourself, being sensible given the risks”.
That is not (yet) the government’s position, even if you think it should be.
Its not going to be the government's advice no.
The government's advice should be best practice relevant for the situation as whole for the country while people make their own decisions based upon that. I hope we're never in a position where we need the Prime Minister to do all our thinking for us.
The government is getting in a tangle on some very basic questions. It should have planned answers to these.
On some of them, the answer should be “decide for yourselves based on what you know”. But it isn’t.
Now they are saying golf has to be on your own or with one member of your household.
How on earth is that consistent with the take responsibility yourselves message?
I can meet someone in a park and stay 2m away.
I cant meet someone in a park with 18 tiny holes in and stay 2m away.
Stop making up silly rules and let us decide on our common sense.
In Berlin outdoor non-team sorts are allowed. So no football and no wrestling. What exactly counts as a team sport is unclear. I have no idea if tennis doubles or beach voleyball is allowed.
@Philip_Thompson your arrogance and condescendence is really on another level this morning. Your constant spinning for the government must be making you insecure.
I note that when he is called out when suggests impossible next steps he stops talking.
It really is a shame Vanilla doesn't offer an ignore button as this is the 3rd day I've replied to half baked details from him (today he forgot Childcare was closed, last week it was knowing more about IT projects than 2 people who earn their living fixing them).
I didn't forget childcare is closed I tried to be helpful. Its a difficult situation and I'm sure people will be making difficult decisions.
As for IT I never said I knew more than anyone else. I said that I would be surprised if they hadn't thought about the problem - and I said that if it didn't work then that would surely be discovered this week in the Beta test and they would go to a Plan B. Given that it seems the problem has been discovered in the Beta test and they have gone to Plan B then how was I wrong please?
Because our argument was that it was never going to work and why the project got to this state, more than the testing. Catching it in user acceptance testing is very expensive in both project costs, you've lost 2 weeks and time lost (it's going to cost £2-3bn in additional furlough costs).
Indeed it would have been great to have spotted this earlier but my point was that the app was already complete by the time people were pointing this out loudly here at least so they may as well have the Beta Test while working on a Plan B.
It would be great to prevent all mistakes but its not going to happen. I'd rather a mistake is recognised as a mistake and a Plan B followed than people get so obsessed about worrying about u-turns or getting the sack if they make a mistake that they plow on regardless and deny there was one.
Most of the time you would have plan b ready to go - especially if the cost of plan b was £500,000 and the cost of a delay £2bn a week.
But hey what do I know - I'm an expert in that field.
Long may the @Philip_Thompson I see no ships saga continue. We need some light relief on here.
"we hope people will act on this week" does not mean "you must go to work tomorrow" either.
First step is employers need to do risk assessments and then they need to contact their employees. Unlikely that will all be done before Wednesday anyway unless they were already working on it.
And so no, this is not the time simply to end the lockdown this week.
Instead we are taking the first careful steps to modify our measures.
And the first step is a change of emphasis that we hope that people will act on this week.
We said that you should work from home if you can, and only go to work if you must.
We now need to stress that anyone who can’t work from home, for instance those in construction or manufacturing, should be actively encouraged to go to work.
There really is a lot of hysterical nonsense about this morning. It is absolutely impossible for the government to regulate or micro manage everything. There have been absurdities in the Stay at Home stage, such as preventing sunbathing in parks whilst maintaining social distancing. What on earth was ever wrong with that? In my neck of the woods the trustees of the woods had blocked off the carpark because they believed people should not drive there for their walk. Why on earth not? How do you catch CV in a car?
What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Brilliant post. Absolutely spot on.
You don't think a bit of planning might be useful? Some guidance on how to tackle the change? Clarity on what's being asked for? Answers to some basic questions?
Even if the answer is: “decide for yourself, being sensible given the risks”.
That is not (yet) the government’s position, even if you think it should be.
Its not going to be the government's advice no.
The government's advice should be best practice relevant for the situation as whole for the country while people make their own decisions based upon that. I hope we're never in a position where we need the Prime Minister to do all our thinking for us.
The government is getting in a tangle on some very basic questions. It should have planned answers to these.
On some of them, the answer should be “decide for yourselves based on what you know”. But it isn’t.
Oh dear, those of us who always knew Boris Johnson was unfit for the office he now holds are being proven right every day to a level that even I thought impossible. His "address" (more like a ramble) was an embarrassment to him and those that have blindly followed him. Back of a fag packet ideas might be ok when you are Mayor of London, but they are not appropriate for a Prime Minister in a time of crisis. Once again, thanks to Boris Johnson, and his less than intelligent fanbois, Britain is the laughing stock of the world. The only western country with a more ludicrous "leader" is the United States.
Of course, Bozo and Trump are not really leaders. They are jokes from reality TV and game shows, but the only person really laughing is Vladimir Putin.
Wales appears to be doing particularly poorly, with a markedly higher infection rate and markedly lower testing rate than the other countries, which could suggest the real infection rate is even higher. Scotland and England much of a wash except for deaths - with England ahead - but as its a lagging indicator and it is believed Scotland lags England that may narrow over the next couple of weeks.
@Philip_Thompson your arrogance and condescendence is really on another level this morning. Your constant spinning for the government must be making you insecure.
I note that when he is called out when suggests impossible next steps he stops talking.
It really is a shame Vanilla doesn't offer an ignore button as this is the 3rd day I've replied to half baked details from him (today he forgot Childcare was closed, last week it was knowing more about IT projects than 2 people who earn their living fixing them).
I didn't forget childcare is closed I tried to be helpful. Its a difficult situation and I'm sure people will be making difficult decisions.
As for IT I never said I knew more than anyone else. I said that I would be surprised if they hadn't thought about the problem - and I said that if it didn't work then that would surely be discovered this week in the Beta test and they would go to a Plan B. Given that it seems the problem has been discovered in the Beta test and they have gone to Plan B then how was I wrong please?
Because our argument was that it was never going to work and why the project got to this state, more than the testing. Catching it in user acceptance testing is very expensive in both project costs, you've lost 2 weeks and time lost (it's going to cost £2-3bn in additional furlough costs).
Indeed it would have been great to have spotted this earlier but my point was that the app was already complete by the time people were pointing this out loudly here at least so they may as well have the Beta Test while working on a Plan B.
It would be great to prevent all mistakes but its not going to happen. I'd rather a mistake is recognised as a mistake and a Plan B followed than people get so obsessed about worrying about u-turns or getting the sack if they make a mistake that they plow on regardless and deny there was one.
Most of the time you would have plan b ready to go - especially if the cost of plan b was £500,000 and the cost of a delay £2bn a week.
But hey what do I know - I'm an expert in that field.
Long may the @Philip_Thompson I see no ships saga continue. We need some light relief on here.
I saw ships, I also saw the solution - have a Plan B.
If Gates can have 8 Plans and be celebrated for it I don't see why our government shouldn't have two plans.
Of course no labour minister or dare i say shadow ministrr... since 2010 lol ... has pulled out of an interview at short notice.. ffs
You really don't get it, do you?
This isn't some minor political kerfuffle about fisheries policy in 2003 or whatever.
There has never, in my lifetime, been a more important moment for the Government to communicate a clear, consistent message across all media outlets, delivered by ministers absolutely on top of their brief. There has never been more at stake, and never such a need for clarity. It is simply a uniquely bad time for ministers to play the hokey-cokey with broadcasters.
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What Boris started yesterday was the unwinding of this nonsense. We need to take responsibility for our own safety. We need to ensure that our particular work place is safe with adequate social distancing, sterilisation, limits on numbers etc. Governments simply cannot work this out for us beyond some very general guidelines.
But we need to go to work. We need to pay for this somehow. We need to preserve what jobs we can. We just need to do so carefully.
Hashtag trending
Very reminiscent of the general election.
Some people never learn.
That said, he talks an absolute load of bollocks which people could easily take as proof that he is indeed a moron.
I think it is just that once a part of government you agree to abide by all the illogicalities and idiocies that that government propounds. And this is what we are seeing.
Does Raab go home and think "job well done" or does he think "dear god what have I said"?
This truism is going to get a thorough testing this time, but the lack of confidence apparent now does not auger well - if lockdown were released tomorrow in full, people would not emerge in huge numbers and the economy would not return to a new normal. Successfully controlling the virus is the only surefire way back to that normality.
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One parent can be 2m apart from the adult child.
How far does the other parent have to be to stop it being a group of 3?
3m/10m/100m
At 100m it is clearly not a group of 3, and 2m is not allowed so there must be a number somewhere in between where it is allowed!
It would be great to prevent all mistakes but its not going to happen. I'd rather a mistake is recognised as a mistake and a Plan B followed than people get so obsessed about worrying about u-turns or getting the sack if they make a mistake that they plow on regardless and deny there was one.
Secondly I think you will find that many of the critical thinkers - and that does include most commentators on here - already have a clear idea of how they will behave irrespective of what the authorities say. The fact that the authorities' actions reinforce the effectiveness of their own self imposed isolation and make it more likely there will be a reasonable outcome to this crisis is the reason why they generally support the lockdown and are concerned about it being lifted too soon.
This doesn't make us Government fans - I have said on here a number of times that I think we should be looking at criminal investigations when it comes to the care home fiasco - it just means that as long as the Government continues to take actions that limit the effects of the virus then some of us will continue to support them.
Lol
Yet see the Rob Powell quote about the park, why are the government making such precise nonsensical rules if we are supposed to take responsibility from our own safety.
Are PB Tories really saying that the messaging from Downing Street has been up to scratch? The waffling "I'm making a big announcement" response by Johnson to Starmer's skewering at PMQs. The briefing to friendly press that LOCKDOWN LIBERTY is here and today we'd be back in the pub beer gardens. The have a party/don't have a party VE Day fiasco. The "look nobody said there would be a liberty from lockdown" announcements of Friday afternoon. The go to work don't go to work" speech last night prompting mass confusion from friendly hacks. And the painful contradiction of the PM's contradictions this morning by the FSS.
Its genuinely the worst possible shambles it could have been. You've got to have HYUFD / IDS (are they the same person) levels of disdain / blinkers to think it went well.
But hey what do I know - I'm an expert in that field.
The 20102015 2017 2019 ... oh
arse
Instead we are taking the first careful steps to modify our measures.
And the first step is a change of emphasis that we hope that people will act on this week.
We said that you should work from home if you can, and only go to work if you must.
We now need to stress that anyone who can’t work from home, for instance those in construction or manufacturing, should be actively encouraged to go to work.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-address-to-the-nation-on-coronavirus-10-may-2020?fbclid=IwAR2zB6Jyoe7xHXb-FXJnJAp-0eI_DipIGXwarAvHrYUMEV3xMEPCsemS4bg
As for the announcement being in response to "Starmer's skewering" - no, just no. Starmer wasn't skewering him and the announcement had already been announced. In fact The Speaker had already complained about the fact the announcement was happening on TV on a Sunday rather than in Parliament which is why Boris referred to that and made a point of addressing that to The Speaker in the reply. It wasn't about Starmer.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-address-to-the-nation-on-coronavirus-10-may-2020?fbclid=IwAR2zB6Jyoe7xHXb-FXJnJAp-0eI_DipIGXwarAvHrYUMEV3xMEPCsemS4bg
Of course here in Scotland our FM still thinks that she does know best. Sigh.
If you are a senior govt adviser the police will see your actions breaking the rules as "plainly disappointing" but not take any action.
Meanwhile they're still missing the opportunity to ease some utterly pointless restrictions in any meaningful way. The blanket "with members of your own household only" applying to sports is ridiculous for some sports. I'll be allowed to walk around a golf course on a prescribed route but only if I am on my own and provided that I keep 15 minutes walk behind the person in front of me, basically not being within shouting distance of another soul the whole time. So just 4 people per hour allowed to play golf. They might as well not have bothered.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52472879
I see no reason why Plan A and Plan B can't be worked on simultaneously. That's exactly what Gates is doing with the vaccines, he's working on Plans A, B, C, D, E, F, G and H simultaneously.
I have no issue with Plan A failing. I have an issue with there not being a Plan B if it does.
I’ve generally been a supporter of the actions of authorities in the last few months, knowing that it’s very easy to criticise with hindsight - but this one was pro-active rather than reactive, and against the advise of pretty much the whole industry.
Holiday companies (with the support of ABTA and ATOL giving extra protection) are trying to encourage people not to take refunds but to delay their trips. However travel insurance for a rearranged trip (with some very limited exceptions) will not cover Covid 19 whereas you would have been covered if the insurance was taken out prior to mid March.
Nobody in their right mind would travel without this cover, yet it is entirely sensible for insurance companies not to provide it.
For this reason I took a refund on my holiday to the USA rather than rescheduling, although I would have preferred to help out by travel company by rescheduling as I still want and plan to go.
Not sure what the solution is to this. I don't want to risk the cost of being on a ventilator in the States even when travel has opened up again.
Again for the middle classes its not a problem, we can generally talk our way out of a situation, and can afford to pay the fines.
For those struggling, the police are far more likely to escalate towards fines, and they cannot afford to pay them.
PM makes a speech: PB Tories think it is fantastic and full of clarity
Everyone else: questions
PB Tories: fantastic and full of clarity, why can't you all just understand?
Rinse and repeat
You cant pretend to be treating people like adults who are aware of risks and then also start increasing fines.
It's that catch-all "reasonable excuse". If that goes then that is a big deal.
That is not (yet) the government’s position, even if you think it should be.
Staines response - "Very good to be here with left wing journalist x"
This apparently wasn't Quite The Thing.
No, you see we're all just idiots on this site unless we're Tories
It might just be better to try and take as fair and balanced a view as possible, raising debating points and questions relevant to a given topic rather than seek to paint those who don't share your view as mindless herd animals without actually explaining why you disagree with them.
Personally we cancelled our daughter's birthday party and celebrated it via video chats with her relatives but I understand not everyone's going to be the same. People need to make their own decisions.
(Which is why centrally planned economies always fail)
Of course, Bozo and Trump are not really leaders. They are jokes from reality TV and game shows, but the only person really laughing is Vladimir Putin.
Some Tories here are reasonable, others are not. The same for lefties.
The government's advice should be best practice relevant for the situation as whole for the country while people make their own decisions based upon that. I hope we're never in a position where we need the Prime Minister to do all our thinking for us.
How on earth is that consistent with the take responsibility yourselves message?
I can meet someone in a park and stay 2m away.
I cant meet someone in a park with 18 tiny holes in and stay 2m away.
Stop making up silly rules and let us decide on our common sense.
https://www.constructionleadershipcouncil.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Site-Operating-Procedures-Version-3.pdf
If I had a choice of who I would listen to it would be anyone but Boris, Sturgeon at least sounds like a grown up.
Yep I think that accurately sums up your critical thinking (or rather lack of it).
If the 60-page document had been published yesterday, they’d all be screaming that it should first have been placed before Parliament.
I mean now that we've declared Ed Miliband emperor for life, why are we still even having this debate?
This week is going to be a grade A clusterf**k with added disasters as an encore.
I also agree about people on here having set ideas about what they will do (I fall into that category). I just can't help feeling that those most supportive of the government are those who are very comfortable with things however they are.
That may be fair enough but as a corollary to my points, the concern about the virus means that they might not stop to think of the wider implications of government announcements and policy, as it affects a broader section of society (which, being mainly pale, male and stale, PB does not represent).
It has induced a selfishness which does people no credit.
The divide here in opinions doesn't seem to be on a Tory/anti-Tory split but a subtler difference of a "People can think for themselves"/"the government must have all the answers" split.
Of course those two divides have a lot in common.
What they want instead is to stay home on full money and have other people do the work and take any risks.
https://order-order.com/people/ishmael-osamor/
I think the same applies with lockdown.
On some of them, the answer should be “decide for yourselves based on what you know”. But it isn’t.
People will want to know how this affects their jobs, when their sector will re-open, and if it affects their entitlement to pay/furlough/benefits.
Not "if I want to meet my parents in a park, can I meet them together".
From this excellent summary of Scottish data @Carnyx pointed out:
https://www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker/
Wales appears to be doing particularly poorly, with a markedly higher infection rate and markedly lower testing rate than the other countries, which could suggest the real infection rate is even higher. Scotland and England much of a wash except for deaths - with England ahead - but as its a lagging indicator and it is believed Scotland lags England that may narrow over the next couple of weeks.
If Gates can have 8 Plans and be celebrated for it I don't see why our government shouldn't have two plans.
This isn't some minor political kerfuffle about fisheries policy in 2003 or whatever.
There has never, in my lifetime, been a more important moment for the Government to communicate a clear, consistent message across all media outlets, delivered by ministers absolutely on top of their brief. There has never been more at stake, and never such a need for clarity. It is simply a uniquely bad time for ministers to play the hokey-cokey with broadcasters.