Truly shocking numbers just announced for the UK yesterday ... Cumulative Covid-19 Cases increase by 25.1% from 11,658 to 14,579, Cumulative Deaths increase by 31.3% from 578 to 759. In percentage terms, these are worse than just about any other major country and at a time when one might have hoped for some element of downturn after the much harsher controls were introduced on Monday, all the more worrying therefore.
I think you can be calmer - it is too soon for the lockdown effect to be showing - probably at least another week or more.
Truly shocking numbers just announced for the UK yesterday ... Cumulative Covid-19 Cases increase by 25.1% from 11,658 to 14,579, Cumulative Deaths increase by 31.3% from 578 to 759. In percentage terms, these are worse than just about any other major country and at a time when one might have hoped for some element of downturn after the much harsher controls were introduced on Monday, all the more worrying therefore.
There's a large lag in both infections and deaths. These are figures from 1-2 weeks ago.
Truly shocking numbers just announced for the UK yesterday ... Cumulative Covid-19 Cases increase by 25.1% from 11,658 to 14,579, Cumulative Deaths increase by 31.3% from 578 to 759. In percentage terms, these are worse than just about any other major country and at a time when one might have hoped for some element of downturn after the much harsher controls were introduced on Monday, all the more worrying therefore.
Errrr. We won't see a decline in numbers until the end of next week most likely as there is a lag from locking down to having an effect. And the numbers are pretty similar to other European countries at similar stages of their epidemics (especially when corrected for overall differences in population). The exception is Germany, which has clearly done a lot more testing than pretty much everywhere else.
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about this story?
No. We got the ventilators we wanted who gives a shit how?
it does seem odd - if the UK wasn't getting ventilators you could understand it but the complaint seems to be that the UK didn't join in a vague procurement arrangement.
There's nothing vague about it. It's a group of Governments advertising a contract and getting suppliers to bid.
I am also stunned how many people on here seem to think, "Brilliant - all our ventilator needs are now met by Dyson". Firstly, we don't know what peak demand for ventilators will be, and would clearly like to get more than Dyson can supply. Secondly, we have the problem of a single supplier who has never made ventilators - hopefully they will meet specs and timescales, but it'd be really good to hedge that risk.
There isn't a single supplier....there are 3 strands.
#1 Increased output of existing UK manufacturers and importing what we can get. AFAIK, there are only limited makers of ventilators at scale in Europe, one is in the UK and the other is German.
#2 The Dyson project
#3 Another consortium is headed by an existing manufacturers, who has agreed for a load of companies to use their IP to make all the bits to create clones.
However, I don't know why we haven't gone with Mr G-Tech or Oxford Unis scrapheap challenge models, at least as a back-up or a bridge until the rest come online. Both of these say they can make 1000s of week of them.
If push comes to shove, sign me up for a dodgy untested unpretty ventilator that probably works, versus a super top-end version that will be delivered a month after I'm dead....
Punkah wallah`s fan from "It Ain`t half hot mum?".
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about this story?
No. We got the ventilators we wanted who gives a shit how?
it does seem odd - if the UK wasn't getting ventilators you could understand it but the complaint seems to be that the UK didn't join in a vague procurement arrangement.
There's nothing vague about it. It's a group of Governments advertising a contract and getting suppliers to bid.
I am also stunned how many people on here seem to think, "Brilliant - all our ventilator needs are now met by Dyson". Firstly, we don't know what peak demand for ventilators will be, and would clearly like to get more than Dyson can supply. Secondly, we have the problem of a single supplier who has never made ventilators - hopefully they will meet specs and timescales, but it'd be really good to hedge that risk.
There isn't a single supplier....there are 3 strands.
#1 Increased output of existing UK manufacturers and importing what we can get. AFAIK, there are only limited makers of ventilators at scale in Europe, one is in the UK and the other is German.
#2 The Dyson project
#3 Another consortium is headed by an existing manufacturers, who has agreed for a load of companies to use their IP to make all the bits to create clones.
However, I don't know why we haven't gone with Mr G-Tech or Oxford Unis scrapheap challenge models, at least as a back-up or a bridge until the rest come online. Both of these say they can make 1000s of week of them.
If push comes to shove, sign me up for a dodgy untested unpretty ventilator that probably works, versus a super top-end version that will be delivered a month after I'm dead....
Well exactly. People are already doing it with a number of different drug treatment.
Quite why anyone thinks we should have added an extra layer of EU bureaucracy and EU politics into our urgent sourcing of more ventilators is a mystery to me.
I think you are right. Indeed the leaders' conference call yesterday has also gone very badly with the blocking of the Coronabond idea and some unpleasant comments from the Dutch about Spain. All a bit unedifying sadly.
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about this story?
No. We got the ventilators we wanted who gives a shit how?
it does seem odd - if the UK wasn't getting ventilators you could understand it but the complaint seems to be that the UK didn't join in a vague procurement arrangement.
There's nothing vague about it. It's a group of Governments advertising a contract and getting suppliers to bid.
I am also stunned how many people on here seem to think, "Brilliant - all our ventilator needs are now met by Dyson". Firstly, we don't know what peak demand for ventilators will be, and would clearly like to get more than Dyson can supply. Secondly, we have the problem of a single supplier who has never made ventilators - hopefully they will meet specs and timescales, but it'd be really good to hedge that risk.
Our government is speaking to manufacturers directly. Why would we need a middle organisation to speak to other suppliers? What is to stop suppliers speaking to the UK directly?
And yet the official reason for not participating is this: A UK government spokesperson said: "Owing to an initial communication problem, the UK did not receive an invitation in time to join in four joint procurements in response to the coronavirus pandemic.
"As the (European) Commission has confirmed, we are eligible to participate in joint procurements during the transition period, following our departure from the EU earlier this year.
"As those four initial procurement schemes had already gone out to tender we were unable to take part in these, but we will consider participating in future procurement schemes on the basis of public health requirements at the time." https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52052694
also: Why are other European governments participating if it's such a waste of time?
Maybe it's not a big deal and won't make a lot of difference at the end of the day, but the robotic insistence by some posters on here that the current UK government can, almost by definition, only have always made the best possible decision in every circumstance is kind of scary.
Why burn a bridge you may want in the future? A polite turn down now is better than burning a bridge and the line "on the basis of public health requirements at the time" is deliberately vague and doesn't commit us to either participating or not participating if it's worthwhile in the future or not.
If you can tell me one advantage to this scheme that wasn't found by speaking to manufacturers directly then I'd be more bothered.
Truly shocking numbers just announced for the UK yesterday ... Cumulative Covid-19 Cases increase by 25.1% from 11,658 to 14,579, Cumulative Deaths increase by 31.3% from 578 to 759. In percentage terms, these are worse than just about any other major country and at a time when one might have hoped for some element of downturn after the much harsher controls were introduced on Monday, all the more worrying therefore.
The expectation of these numbers was the reason for the harsher controls introduced Monday.
After every man and his dog went to the beach at the weekend.
Quite why anyone thinks we should have added an extra layer of EU bureaucracy and EU politics into our urgent sourcing of more ventilators is a mystery to me.
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about this story?
No. We got the ventilators we wanted who gives a shit how?
it does seem odd - if the UK wasn't getting ventilators you could understand it but the complaint seems to be that the UK didn't join in a vague procurement arrangement.
There's nothing vague about it. It's a group of Governments advertising a contract and getting suppliers to bid.
I am also stunned how many people on here seem to think, "Brilliant - all our ventilator needs are now met by Dyson". Firstly, we don't know what peak demand for ventilators will be, and would clearly like to get more than Dyson can supply. Secondly, we have the problem of a single supplier who has never made ventilators - hopefully they will meet specs and timescales, but it'd be really good to hedge that risk.
There isn't a single supplier....there are 3 strands.
#1 Increased output of existing UK manufacturers and importing what we can get. AFAIK, there are only limited makers of ventilators at scale in Europe, one is in the UK and the other is German.
#2 The Dyson project
#3 Another consortium is headed by an existing manufacturers, who has agreed for a load of companies to use their IP to make all the bits to create clones.
However, I don't know why we haven't gone with Mr G-Tech or Oxford Unis scrapheap challenge models, at least as a back-up or a bridge until the rest come online. Both of these say they can make 1000s of week of them.
If push comes to shove, sign me up for a dodgy untested unpretty ventilator that probably works, versus a super top-end version that will be delivered a month after I'm dead....
Me too - be happy with those things we used to use to perk up the coal fires when I was younger!
Truly shocking numbers just announced for the UK yesterday ... Cumulative Covid-19 Cases increase by 25.1% from 11,658 to 14,579, Cumulative Deaths increase by 31.3% from 578 to 759. In percentage terms, these are worse than just about any other major country and at a time when one might have hoped for some element of downturn after the much harsher controls were introduced on Monday, all the more worrying therefore.
There's a large lag in both infections and deaths. These are figures from 1-2 weeks ago.
You get to see the results of actions ~ 10 days ago in this one. It's the combination of delay and exponential growth that is scary.
Truly shocking numbers just announced for the UK yesterday ... Cumulative Covid-19 Cases increase by 25.1% from 11,658 to 14,579, Cumulative Deaths increase by 31.3% from 578 to 759. In percentage terms, these are worse than just about any other major country and at a time when one might have hoped for some element of downturn after the much harsher controls were introduced on Monday, all the more worrying therefore.
Given it takes about two weeks for the lockdown to take effect it seems premature to worry about a lack of an impact.
Percentages from low bases are quite variable. Hopefully the percentages don't continue at that rate.
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about this story?
No. We got the ventilators we wanted who gives a shit how?
it does seem odd - if the UK wasn't getting ventilators you could understand it but the complaint seems to be that the UK didn't join in a vague procurement arrangement.
There's nothing vague about it. It's a group of Governments advertising a contract and getting suppliers to bid.
I am also stunned how many people on here seem to think, "Brilliant - all our ventilator needs are now met by Dyson". Firstly, we don't know what peak demand for ventilators will be, and would clearly like to get more than Dyson can supply. Secondly, we have the problem of a single supplier who has never made ventilators - hopefully they will meet specs and timescales, but it'd be really good to hedge that risk.
Our government is speaking to manufacturers directly. Why would we need a middle organisation to speak to other suppliers? What is to stop suppliers speaking to the UK directly?
And yet the official reason for not participating is this: A UK government spokesperson said: "Owing to an initial communication problem, the UK did not receive an invitation in time to join in four joint procurements in response to the coronavirus pandemic.
"As the (European) Commission has confirmed, we are eligible to participate in joint procurements during the transition period, following our departure from the EU earlier this year.
"As those four initial procurement schemes had already gone out to tender we were unable to take part in these, but we will consider participating in future procurement schemes on the basis of public health requirements at the time." https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52052694
also: Why are other European governments participating if it's such a waste of time?
Maybe it's not a big deal and won't make a lot of difference at the end of the day, but the robotic insistence by some posters on here that the current UK government can, almost by definition, only have always made the best possible decision in every circumstance is kind of scary.
Why burn a bridge you may want in the future? A polite turn down now is better than burning a bridge and the line "on the basis of public health requirements at the time" is deliberately vague and doesn't commit us to either participating or not participating if it's worthwhile in the future or not.
If you can tell me one advantage to this scheme that wasn't found by speaking to manufacturers directly then I'd be more bothered.
But why have other European governments decided there is a point to it?
What is it about southwark, Westminster, lambeth and Brentbthat makes them the notes spots in England?
I think 99% of those living outside central London are just staggered that the London Underground system continues to operate to a significant extent. Recent pictures of the passengers crushed inside simply beggar belief, given the huge risks we are all facing. For sure this has to be one of the main reasons for the incidence of the disease in the Capital being so high.
Given that the UK has left the EU, why would it participate anyway? It has clearly got its own scheme going on.
Not really an either/or, is it? There is nothing at all to prevent participating in a joint procurement AND making own, additional arrangements (as other countries are doing).
There's no such thing as a free lunch.
I don't think you understand how joint procurement processes work.
There is a competition among firms to meet the (joint) order and the offer is either acceptable in which case you sign the contract or not in which case you don't.
Participating was a no-brainer in this case and it is a major concern that the UK (apparently due to some kind of error on our part) didn't.
Why was it a no brainer? Time was of the essence so why outsource our order to third parties who might prioritise early shipments to Italy etc and leave us at the back of the queue?
We needed ventilators. We got ventilators. Job done.
Because you can easily do both.
Participating in a procurement process doesn't prevent you from pursuing other options. If the lead times promised by the successful tenderer are unacceptable, you just don't sign the contract, and there is nothing to prevent you from pursuing other options, even as the procurement proceeds.
Also, it is not (yet) clear that we do have sufficient ventilators. The Dyson order may stumble, and the numbers may be insufficient for our needs. We'd clearly be in a better place with the Dyson order but with the opportunity to get more from other suppliers.
Do you know the rules in this case?
It could be very easily a requirement that you don't procure independently.
Truly shocking numbers just announced for the UK yesterday ... Cumulative Covid-19 Cases increase by 25.1% from 11,658 to 14,579, Cumulative Deaths increase by 31.3% from 578 to 759. In percentage terms, these are worse than just about any other major country and at a time when one might have hoped for some element of downturn after the much harsher controls were introduced on Monday, all the more worrying therefore.
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about this story?
No. We got the ventilators we wanted who gives a shit how?
it does seem odd - if the UK wasn't getting ventilators you could understand it but the complaint seems to be that the UK didn't join in a vague procurement arrangement.
There's nothing vague about it. It's a group of Governments advertising a contract and getting suppliers to bid.
I am also stunned how many people on here seem to think, "Brilliant - all our ventilator needs are now met by Dyson". Firstly, we don't know what peak demand for ventilators will be, and would clearly like to get more than Dyson can supply. Secondly, we have the problem of a single supplier who has never made ventilators - hopefully they will meet specs and timescales, but it'd be really good to hedge that risk.
Our government is speaking to manufacturers directly. Why would we need a middle organisation to speak to other suppliers? What is to stop suppliers speaking to the UK directly?
And yet the official reason for not participating is this: A UK government spokesperson said: "Owing to an initial communication problem, the UK did not receive an invitation in time to join in four joint procurements in response to the coronavirus pandemic.
"As the (European) Commission has confirmed, we are eligible to participate in joint procurements during the transition period, following our departure from the EU earlier this year.
"As those four initial procurement schemes had already gone out to tender we were unable to take part in these, but we will consider participating in future procurement schemes on the basis of public health requirements at the time." https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52052694
also: Why are other European governments participating if it's such a waste of time?
Maybe it's not a big deal and won't make a lot of difference at the end of the day, but the robotic insistence by some posters on here that the current UK government can, almost by definition, only have always made the best possible decision in every circumstance is kind of scary.
Why burn a bridge you may want in the future? A polite turn down now is better than burning a bridge and the line "on the basis of public health requirements at the time" is deliberately vague and doesn't commit us to either participating or not participating if it's worthwhile in the future or not.
If you can tell me one advantage to this scheme that wasn't found by speaking to manufacturers directly then I'd be more bothered.
But why have other European governments decided there is a point to it?
Ask them. Maybe they lack the manufacturers we have in our own country we could deal with directly?
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about this story?
No. We got the ventilators we wanted who gives a shit how?
it does seem odd - if the UK wasn't getting ventilators you could understand it but the complaint seems to be that the UK didn't join in a vague procurement arrangement.
There's nothing vague about it. It's a group of Governments advertising a contract and getting suppliers to bid.
I am also stunned how many people on here seem to think, "Brilliant - all our ventilator needs are now met by Dyson". Firstly, we don't know what peak demand for ventilators will be, and would clearly like to get more than Dyson can supply. Secondly, we have the problem of a single supplier who has never made ventilators - hopefully they will meet specs and timescales, but it'd be really good to hedge that risk.
Our government is speaking to manufacturers directly. Why would we need a middle organisation to speak to other suppliers? What is to stop suppliers speaking to the UK directly?
And yet the official reason for not participating is this: A UK government spokesperson said: "Owing to an initial communication problem, the UK did not receive an invitation in time to join in four joint procurements in response to the coronavirus pandemic.
"As the (European) Commission has confirmed, we are eligible to participate in joint procurements during the transition period, following our departure from the EU earlier this year.
"As those four initial procurement schemes had already gone out to tender we were unable to take part in these, but we will consider participating in future procurement schemes on the basis of public health requirements at the time." https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52052694
also: Why are other European governments participating if it's such a waste of time?
Maybe it's not a big deal and won't make a lot of difference at the end of the day, but the robotic insistence by some posters on here that the current UK government can, almost by definition, only have always made the best possible decision in every circumstance is kind of scary.
There is also a robotic insistence by the pro eu that we should have been part of the scheme with no evidence produced that we will a) get more ventilators that way b) get them quicker c) have not been unable to source them outside the scheme in addition if we joined
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about this story?
No. We got the ventilators we wanted who gives a shit how?
it does seem odd - if the UK wasn't getting ventilators you could understand it but the complaint seems to be that the UK didn't join in a vague procurement arrangement.
There's nothing vague about it. It's a group of Governments advertising a contract and getting suppliers to bid.
I am also stunned how many people on here seem to think, "Brilliant - all our ventilator needs are now met by Dyson". Firstly, we don't know what peak demand for ventilators will be, and would clearly like to get more than Dyson can supply. Secondly, we have the problem of a single supplier who has never made ventilators - hopefully they will meet specs and timescales, but it'd be really good to hedge that risk.
Our government is speaking to manufacturers directly. Why would we need a middle organisation to speak to other suppliers? What is to stop suppliers speaking to the UK directly?
And yet the official reason for not participating is this: A UK government spokesperson said: "Owing to an initial communication problem, the UK did not receive an invitation in time to join in four joint procurements in response to the coronavirus pandemic.
"As the (European) Commission has confirmed, we are eligible to participate in joint procurements during the transition period, following our departure from the EU earlier this year.
"As those four initial procurement schemes had already gone out to tender we were unable to take part in these, but we will consider participating in future procurement schemes on the basis of public health requirements at the time." https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52052694
also: Why are other European governments participating if it's such a waste of time?
Maybe it's not a big deal and won't make a lot of difference at the end of the day, but the robotic insistence by some posters on here that the current UK government can, almost by definition, only have always made the best possible decision in every circumstance is kind of scary.
Why burn a bridge you may want in the future? A polite turn down now is better than burning a bridge and the line "on the basis of public health requirements at the time" is deliberately vague and doesn't commit us to either participating or not participating if it's worthwhile in the future or not.
If you can tell me one advantage to this scheme that wasn't found by speaking to manufacturers directly then I'd be more bothered.
But why have other European governments decided there is a point to it?
Not all have. And what EU countries besides the UK and Germany currently make ventilators at scale?
Truly shocking numbers just announced for the UK yesterday ... Cumulative Covid-19 Cases increase by 25.1% from 11,658 to 14,579, Cumulative Deaths increase by 31.3% from 578 to 759. In percentage terms, these are worse than just about any other major country and at a time when one might have hoped for some element of downturn after the much harsher controls were introduced on Monday, all the more worrying therefore.
There's a large lag in both infections and deaths. These are figures from 1-2 weeks ago.
You get to see the results of actions ~ 10 days ago in this one. It's the combination of delay and exponential growth that is scary.
I think the gap is perhaps slightly longer than that. Don't forget it's typically 12 days from "lockdown" to peak (13-14 in Italy).
And that's because, while you may show symptoms at 7-10 days, you're unlikely to end up in hospital (and therefore get counted) for another 4-7 days.
Truly shocking numbers just announced for the UK yesterday ... Cumulative Covid-19 Cases increase by 25.1% from 11,658 to 14,579, Cumulative Deaths increase by 31.3% from 578 to 759. In percentage terms, these are worse than just about any other major country and at a time when one might have hoped for some element of downturn after the much harsher controls were introduced on Monday, all the more worrying therefore.
There's a large lag in both infections and deaths. These are figures from 1-2 weeks ago.
It doesn't seem to matter how much you say that...
Truly shocking numbers just announced for the UK yesterday ... Cumulative Covid-19 Cases increase by 25.1% from 11,658 to 14,579, Cumulative Deaths increase by 31.3% from 578 to 759. In percentage terms, these are worse than just about any other major country and at a time when one might have hoped for some element of downturn after the much harsher controls were introduced on Monday, all the more worrying therefore.
There's a large lag in both infections and deaths. These are figures from 1-2 weeks ago.
You get to see the results of actions ~ 10 days ago in this one. It's the combination of delay and exponential growth that is scary.
I think the gap is perhaps slightly longer than that. Don't forget it's typically 12 days from "lockdown" to peak (13-14 in Italy).
And that's because, while you may show symptoms at 7-10 days, you're unlikely to end up in hospital (and therefore get counted) for another 4-7 days.
Truly shocking numbers just announced for the UK yesterday ... Cumulative Covid-19 Cases increase by 25.1% from 11,658 to 14,579, Cumulative Deaths increase by 31.3% from 578 to 759. In percentage terms, these are worse than just about any other major country and at a time when one might have hoped for some element of downturn after the much harsher controls were introduced on Monday, all the more worrying therefore.
was that not down to the swap over and so it was 1/2 day versus 1&1/2 days
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about this story?
No. We got the ventilators we wanted who gives a shit how?
it does seem odd - if the UK wasn't getting ventilators you could understand it but the complaint seems to be that the UK didn't join in a vague procurement arrangement.
There's nothing vague about it. It's a group of Governments advertising a contract and getting suppliers to bid.
I am also stunned how many people on here seem to think, "Brilliant - all our ventilator needs are now met by Dyson". Firstly, we don't know what peak demand for ventilators will be, and would clearly like to get more than Dyson can supply. Secondly, we have the problem of a single supplier who has never made ventilators - hopefully they will meet specs and timescales, but it'd be really good to hedge that risk.
Our government is speaking to manufacturers directly. Why would we need a middle organisation to speak to other suppliers? What is to stop suppliers speaking to the UK directly?
And yet the official reason for not participating is this: A UK government spokesperson said: "Owing to an initial communication problem, the UK did not receive an invitation in time to join in four joint procurements in response to the coronavirus pandemic.
"As the (European) Commission has confirmed, we are eligible to participate in joint procurements during the transition period, following our departure from the EU earlier this year.
"As those four initial procurement schemes had already gone out to tender we were unable to take part in these, but we will consider participating in future procurement schemes on the basis of public health requirements at the time." https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52052694
also: Why are other European governments participating if it's such a waste of time?
Maybe it's not a big deal and won't make a lot of difference at the end of the day, but the robotic insistence by some posters on here that the current UK government can, almost by definition, only have always made the best possible decision in every circumstance is kind of scary.
Why burn a bridge you may want in the future? A polite turn down now is better than burning a bridge and the line "on the basis of public health requirements at the time" is deliberately vague and doesn't commit us to either participating or not participating if it's worthwhile in the future or not.
If you can tell me one advantage to this scheme that wasn't found by speaking to manufacturers directly then I'd be more bothered.
But why have other European governments decided there is a point to it?
In Spain no doubt because their immediate situation is more precarious. One thing the Pandemic has made clear is that no healthcare system anywhere can cope without exceptional measures. In this respect the UK is in the same boat as most others - fortunately for them their peak danger time is a couple of weeks further down the road.
What is it about southwark, Westminster, lambeth and Brentbthat makes them the notes spots in England?
I think 99% of those living outside central London are just staggered that the London Underground system continues to operate to a significant extent. Recent pictures of the passengers crushed inside simply beggar belief, given the huge risks we are all facing. For sure this has to be one of the main reasons for the incidence of the disease in the Capital being so high.
Why have services been cut but not restricted to key workers? It seems utterly bonkers to have a skeleton service running with all the trains packed, do they genuinely have hundreds of drivers off sick and no qualified managers who can replace them?
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about this story?
No. We got the ventilators we wanted who gives a shit how?
it does seem odd - if the UK wasn't getting ventilators you could understand it but the complaint seems to be that the UK didn't join in a vague procurement arrangement.
There's nothing vague about it. It's a group of Governments advertising a contract and getting suppliers to bid.
I am also stunned how many people on here seem to think, "Brilliant - all our ventilator needs are now met by Dyson". Firstly, we don't know what peak demand for ventilators will be, and would clearly like to get more than Dyson can supply. Secondly, we have the problem of a single supplier who has never made ventilators - hopefully they will meet specs and timescales, but it'd be really good to hedge that risk.
Our government is speaking to manufacturers directly. Why would we need a middle organisation to speak to other suppliers? What is to stop suppliers speaking to the UK directly?
And yet the official reason for not participating is this: A UK government spokesperson said: "Owing to an initial communication problem, the UK did not receive an invitation in time to join in four joint procurements in response to the coronavirus pandemic.
"As the (European) Commission has confirmed, we are eligible to participate in joint procurements during the transition period, following our departure from the EU earlier this year.
"As those four initial procurement schemes had already gone out to tender we were unable to take part in these, but we will consider participating in future procurement schemes on the basis of public health requirements at the time." https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52052694
also: Why are other European governments participating if it's such a waste of time?
Maybe it's not a big deal and won't make a lot of difference at the end of the day, but the robotic insistence by some posters on here that the current UK government can, almost by definition, only have always made the best possible decision in every circumstance is kind of scary.
There is also a robotic insistence by the pro eu that we should have been part of the scheme with no evidence produced that we will a) get more ventilators that way b) get them quicker c) have not been unable to source them outside the scheme in addition if we joined
I don't have any opinion on ventilator procurement as such, just whenever the british govt does something different to others, there is this insistence that Our Govt can't have made a mistake. it's like believers thinking that their religion has the truth and not noticing that all other religious believers also think that their religion is right.
What is it about southwark, Westminster, lambeth and Brentbthat makes them the notes spots in England?
I think 99% of those living outside central London are just staggered that the London Underground system continues to operate to a significant extent. Recent pictures of the passengers crushed inside simply beggar belief, given the huge risks we are all facing. For sure this has to be one of the main reasons for the incidence of the disease in the Capital being so high.
Closing the tube would leave large numbers of key workers unable to get to work. The error is not to be running more trains.
Truly shocking numbers just announced for the UK yesterday ... Cumulative Covid-19 Cases increase by 25.1% from 11,658 to 14,579, Cumulative Deaths increase by 31.3% from 578 to 759. In percentage terms, these are worse than just about any other major country and at a time when one might have hoped for some element of downturn after the much harsher controls were introduced on Monday, all the more worrying therefore.
Aren't these a day and a bit though? There was a change in the cut off times I think.
I presume he thinks he saw his mother on the day. But there is an unnecessary undertone there which leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.
Or it is just a joke based on Boris's "mis-speak" about Mothers Day.
No. He knows that if the British PM tells the entire population to forego the pleasure of seeing their mother on Mother’s Day, to keep them safe during a national emergency, then sneaks off to see his own mother in secret, and then by misfortune she catches the virus from him, it will be a massive story.
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about this story?
No. We got the ventilators we wanted who gives a shit how?
it does seem odd - if the UK wasn't getting ventilators you could understand it but the complaint seems to be that the UK didn't join in a vague procurement arrangement.
There's nothing vague about it. It's a group of Governments advertising a contract and getting suppliers to bid.
I am also stunned how many people on here seem to think, "Brilliant - all our ventilator needs are now met by Dyson". Firstly, we don't know what peak demand for ventilators will be, and would clearly like to get more than Dyson can supply. Secondly, we have the problem of a single supplier who has never made ventilators - hopefully they will meet specs and timescales, but it'd be really good to hedge that risk.
Our government is speaking to manufacturers directly. Why would we need a middle organisation to speak to other suppliers? What is to stop suppliers speaking to the UK directly?
And yet the official reason for not participating is this: A UK government spokesperson said: "Owing to an initial communication problem, the UK did not receive an invitation in time to join in four joint procurements in response to the coronavirus pandemic.
"As the (European) Commission has confirmed, we are eligible to participate in joint procurements during the transition period, following our departure from the EU earlier this year.
"As those four initial procurement schemes had already gone out to tender we were unable to take part in these, but we will consider participating in future procurement schemes on the basis of public health requirements at the time." https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52052694
also: Why are other European governments participating if it's such a waste of time?
Maybe it's not a big deal and won't make a lot of difference at the end of the day, but the robotic insistence by some posters on here that the current UK government can, almost by definition, only have always made the best possible decision in every circumstance is kind of scary.
Why burn a bridge you may want in the future? A polite turn down now is better than burning a bridge and the line "on the basis of public health requirements at the time" is deliberately vague and doesn't commit us to either participating or not participating if it's worthwhile in the future or not.
If you can tell me one advantage to this scheme that wasn't found by speaking to manufacturers directly then I'd be more bothered.
But why have other European governments decided there is a point to it?
Not all have. And what EU countries besides the UK and Germany currently make ventilators at scale?
If you look at where there is light, flexible manufacturing in in Europe, I would reckon that Northern Italy (ironically), Germany, the Netherlands, Finland, and Sweden could all make ventilators relatively quickly.
Other countries would find it harder: Spain's manufacturing is mostly textiles. Ireland is computer assembly and pharmaceuticals. Portugal and Belgium are a few large plants, as I suspect is much of Eastern Europe. Luxembourg is tiny.
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about this story?
No. We got the ventilators we wanted who gives a shit how?
it does seem odd - if the UK wasn't getting ventilators you could understand it but the complaint seems to be that the UK didn't join in a vague procurement arrangement.
There's nothing vague about it. It's a group of Governments advertising a contract and getting suppliers to bid.
I am also stunned how many people on here seem to think, "Brilliant - all our ventilator needs are now met by Dyson". Firstly, we don't know what peak demand for ventilators will be, and would clearly like to get more than Dyson can supply. Secondly, we have the problem of a single supplier who has never made ventilators - hopefully they will meet specs and timescales, but it'd be really good to hedge that risk.
Our government is speaking to manufacturers directly. Why would we need a middle organisation to speak to other suppliers? What is to stop suppliers speaking to the UK directly?
And yet the official reason for not participating is this: A UK government spokesperson said: "Owing to an initial communication problem, the UK did not receive an invitation in time to join in four joint procurements in response to the coronavirus pandemic.
"As the (European) Commission has confirmed, we are eligible to participate in joint procurements during the transition period, following our departure from the EU earlier this year.
"As those four initial procurement schemes had already gone out to tender we were unable to take part in these, but we will consider participating in future procurement schemes on the basis of public health requirements at the time." https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52052694
also: Why are other European governments participating if it's such a waste of time?
Maybe it's not a big deal and won't make a lot of difference at the end of the day, but the robotic insistence by some posters on here that the current UK government can, almost by definition, only have always made the best possible decision in every circumstance is kind of scary.
Why burn a bridge you may want in the future? A polite turn down now is better than burning a bridge and the line "on the basis of public health requirements at the time" is deliberately vague and doesn't commit us to either participating or not participating if it's worthwhile in the future or not.
If you can tell me one advantage to this scheme that wasn't found by speaking to manufacturers directly then I'd be more bothered.
But why have other European governments decided there is a point to it?
Quite why anyone thinks we should have added an extra layer of EU bureaucracy and EU politics into our urgent sourcing of more ventilators is a mystery to me.
I googled out of interest, and the first few results were in the independent from about a week ago - making it explicitly political (Boris should put pragmatism before Brexit ideology etc etc). If you frame it like that, of course you will get resistance.
It's almost as if they wanted to score political points rather than as a matter of genuine concern.
Truly shocking numbers just announced for the UK yesterday ... Cumulative Covid-19 Cases increase by 25.1% from 11,658 to 14,579, Cumulative Deaths increase by 31.3% from 578 to 759. In percentage terms, these are worse than just about any other major country and at a time when one might have hoped for some element of downturn after the much harsher controls were introduced on Monday, all the more worrying therefore.
Aren't these a day and a bit though? There was a change in the cut off times I think.
I think this was for 24 hours, and should be the same going forward.
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about this story?
No. We got the ventilators we wanted who gives a shit how?
it does seem odd - if the UK wasn't getting ventilators you could understand it but the complaint seems to be that the UK didn't join in a vague procurement arrangement.
There's nothing vague about it. It's a group of Governments advertising a contract and getting suppliers to bid.
I am also stunned how many people on here seem to think, "Brilliant - all our ventilator needs are now met by Dyson". Firstly, we don't know what peak demand for ventilators will be, and would clearly like to get more than Dyson can supply. Secondly, we have the problem of a single supplier who has never made ventilators - hopefully they will meet specs and timescales, but it'd be really good to hedge that risk.
Our government is speaking to manufacturers directly. Why would we need a middle organisation to speak to other suppliers? What is to stop suppliers speaking to the UK directly?
And yet the official reason for not participating is this: A UK government spokesperson said: "Owing to an initial communication problem, the UK did not receive an invitation in time to join in four joint procurements in response to the coronavirus pandemic.
"As the (European) Commission has confirmed, we are eligible to participate in joint procurements during the transition period, following our departure from the EU earlier this year.
"As those four initial procurement schemes had already gone out to tender we were unable to take part in these, but we will consider participating in future procurement schemes on the basis of public health requirements at the time." https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52052694
also: Why are other European governments participating if it's such a waste of time?
Maybe it's not a big deal and won't make a lot of difference at the end of the day, but the robotic insistence by some posters on here that the current UK government can, almost by definition, only have always made the best possible decision in every circumstance is kind of scary.
There is also a robotic insistence by the pro eu that we should have been part of the scheme with no evidence produced that we will a) get more ventilators that way b) get them quicker c) have not been unable to source them outside the scheme in addition if we joined
I don't have any opinion on ventilator procurement as such, just whenever the british govt does something different to others, there is this insistence that Our Govt can't have made a mistake. it's like believers thinking that their religion has the truth and not noticing that all other religious believers also think that their religion is right.
I don't either have an opinion on it but both sides seems to be insisting their's was the right side and doing anything else was stupid.
- Rigid enforcement of EU procurement rules result in them ending up with Chinese produced ventilators, which turn out to be not fit for purpose - The Wallonian government delaying signing of the contract so they can debate whether this is really in the best interests of Wallonia
The Cabinet is going to be a political version of the Diamond Princess.
We can watch the rats of infection, severe illness and so on, and extrapolate to the larger population
Hopefully the rats of infection will tail off.
I am sure it is an issue gnawing at their thoughts. They will need to hole up for a while.
I hope that's a sign you're feeling better, Foxy!
Just about to start a remote meeting. Could be a total disaster as I've never used the tech for group chat before.
Yes, bright enough to potter in the garden. It is a bit up and down though.
IF I had this disease back in January, one of the distinct symptoms is how it fluctuates. You feel terrible, you feel better, you feel terrible again. V weird.
My wife told me last night that when she caught what I had, she had a coughing fit so bad she nearly fainted on the Tube (she'd never told me this before). In retrospect it does seem like we might have had it, maybe the antibody tests will tell me, when they are released.
Good luck to you and your wife.
Severaal people have posted wondering if their flu in January/December/November was Covid-19.
I have to say this is very, very unlikely that you had Covid-19. My evidence is that the virus is clearly very contageous: even the PM has caught it. But in February there were thousands of tests being carried out and only 100 or so came back positive. The negatives would have included a lot of random testing, and people presenting with flu symptoms wanting to know if it was Flu or Covid.
On top of that in over half of all the early cases there was an obviuos trace back to China. Then there was an obvoius trace back to Italy.
All of these point against the idea that Coronavirus was spreading widely in the UK undetected before mid-February, and the picture is similar in all European countries, just with a different take off date.
Why "even the PM"? Surely, given the number of people he meets, he's one of the most likely people to get it in the country.
I doubt if Boris spends his rush hours on the Tube.
Churchill did though. I know, 'cause I watched that movie.
Boris always got about London on his bike before becoming PM. It is one of the good things about him. I notice that bike shops have exempted from the close down order which is great for me because I've just had a puncture which my bike shop has fixed this afternoon.
Given that the UK has left the EU, why would it participate anyway? It has clearly got its own scheme going on.
Not really an either/or, is it? There is nothing at all to prevent participating in a joint procurement AND making own, additional arrangements (as other countries are doing).
There's no such thing as a free lunch.
I don't think you understand how joint procurement processes work.
There is a competition among firms to meet the (joint) order and the offer is either acceptable in which case you sign the contract or not in which case you don't.
Participating was a no-brainer in this case and it is a major concern that the UK (apparently due to some kind of error on our part) didn't.
Why was it a no brainer? Time was of the essence so why outsource our order to third parties who might prioritise early shipments to Italy etc and leave us at the back of the queue?
We needed ventilators. We got ventilators. Job done.
Because you can easily do both.
Participating in a procurement process doesn't prevent you from pursuing other options. If the lead times promised by the successful tenderer are unacceptable, you just don't sign the contract, and there is nothing to prevent you from pursuing other options, even as the procurement proceeds.
Also, it is not (yet) clear that we do have sufficient ventilators. The Dyson order may stumble, and the numbers may be insufficient for our needs. We'd clearly be in a better place with the Dyson order but with the opportunity to get more from other suppliers.
Do you know the rules in this case?
It could be very easily a requirement that you don't procure independently.
Other EU countries appear to be ordering ventilators through other routes as well which suggests there are no restrictions on procuring independently.
The EU Commission also has I think stepped in to stop/reduce Germany and France's ban on export of necessary medical equipment to ensure solidarity within the bloc.
I presume he thinks he saw his mother on the day. But there is an unnecessary undertone there which leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.
Or it is just a joke based on Boris's "mis-speak" about Mothers Day.
No. He knows that if the British PM tells the entire population to forego the pleasure of seeing their mother on Mother’s Day, to keep them safe during a national emergency, then sneaks off to see his own mother in secret, and then by misfortune she catches the virus from him, it will be a massive story.
Yes and unionists trying to pretend it is just sniping at Tory liars shows it up as well. It is not do as I do it is do as I say, one rule for them and one for the plebs.
Quite why anyone thinks we should have added an extra layer of EU bureaucracy and EU politics into our urgent sourcing of more ventilators is a mystery to me.
I think you are right. Indeed the leaders' conference call yesterday has also gone very badly with the blocking of the Coronabond idea and some unpleasant comments from the Dutch about Spain. All a bit unedifying sadly.
The article I saw (which I think you linked?) had the Dutch opposing mutualised debt.
His criticism was that Spain should have run a budget surplus during the last 10 years and so it would have been able to afford it itself.
A little callous, perhaps, but not really "unpleasant". Frankly the whole "coronabond" idea strikes me as the people who have always wanted mutualised debt trying to avoid a good crisis going to waste.
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about this story?
No. We got the ventilators we wanted who gives a shit how?
it does seem odd - if the UK wasn't getting ventilators you could understand it but the complaint seems to be that the UK didn't join in a vague procurement arrangement.
There's nothing vague about it. It's a group of Governments advertising a contract and getting suppliers to bid.
I am also stunned how many people on here seem to think, "Brilliant - all our ventilator needs are now met by Dyson". Firstly, we don't know what peak demand for ventilators will be, and would clearly like to get more than Dyson can supply. Secondly, we have the problem of a single supplier who has never made ventilators - hopefully they will meet specs and timescales, but it'd be really good to hedge that risk.
Our government is speaking to manufacturers directly. Why would we need a middle organisation to speak to other suppliers? What is to stop suppliers speaking to the UK directly?
And yet the official reason for not participating is this: A UK government spokesperson said: "Owing to an initial communication problem, the UK did not receive an invitation in time to join in four joint procurements in response to the coronavirus pandemic.
"As the (European) Commission has confirmed, we are eligible to participate in joint procurements during the transition period, following our departure from the EU earlier this year.
"As those four initial procurement schemes had already gone out to tender we were unable to take part in these, but we will consider participating in future procurement schemes on the basis of public health requirements at the time." https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52052694
also: Why are other European governments participating if it's such a waste of time?
Maybe it's not a big deal and won't make a lot of difference at the end of the day, but the robotic insistence by some posters on here that the current UK government can, almost by definition, only have always made the best possible decision in every circumstance is kind of scary.
Why burn a bridge you may want in the future? A polite turn down now is better than burning a bridge and the line "on the basis of public health requirements at the time" is deliberately vague and doesn't commit us to either participating or not participating if it's worthwhile in the future or not.
If you can tell me one advantage to this scheme that wasn't found by speaking to manufacturers directly then I'd be more bothered.
But why have other European governments decided there is a point to it?
Not all have. And what EU countries besides the UK and Germany currently make ventilators at scale?
If you look at where there is light, flexible manufacturing in in Europe, I would reckon that Northern Italy (ironically), Germany, the Netherlands, Finland, and Sweden could all make ventilators relatively quickly.
Other countries would find it harder: Spain's manufacturing is mostly textiles. Ireland is computer assembly and pharmaceuticals. Portugal and Belgium are a few large plants, as I suspect is much of Eastern Europe. Luxembourg is tiny.
The EU scheme is about distributing ventilators from countries that can produce them to those that can’t. No wonder HMG wasn’t interested.
worse than just about any other major country and at a time when one might have hoped for some element of downturn after the much harsher controls were introduced on Monday, all the more worrying therefore.
Why should something with a lead-time of around 14 days be having an impact after 5?
Given that the UK has left the EU, why would it participate anyway? It has clearly got its own scheme going on.
Not really an either/or, is it? There is nothing at all to prevent participating in a joint procurement AND making own, additional arrangements (as other countries are doing).
There's no such thing as a free lunch.
I don't think you understand how joint procurement processes work.
There is a competition among firms to meet the (joint) order and the offer is either acceptable in which case you sign the contract or not in which case you don't.
Participating was a no-brainer in this case and it is a major concern that the UK (apparently due to some kind of error on our part) didn't.
Why was it a no brainer? Time was of the essence so why outsource our order to third parties who might prioritise early shipments to Italy etc and leave us at the back of the queue?
We needed ventilators. We got ventilators. Job done.
Because you can easily do both.
Participating in a procurement process doesn't prevent you from pursuing other options. If the lead times promised by the successful tenderer are unacceptable, you just don't sign the contract, and there is nothing to prevent you from pursuing other options, even as the procurement proceeds.
Also, it is not (yet) clear that we do have sufficient ventilators. The Dyson order may stumble, and the numbers may be insufficient for our needs. We'd clearly be in a better place with the Dyson order but with the opportunity to get more from other suppliers.
Do you know the rules in this case?
It could be very easily a requirement that you don't procure independently.
Other EU countries appear to be ordering ventilators through other routes as well which suggests there are no restrictions on procuring independently.
The EU Commission also has I think stepped in to stop/reduce Germany and France's ban on export of necessary medical equipment to ensure solidarity within the bloc.
Quite why anyone thinks we should have added an extra layer of EU bureaucracy and EU politics into our urgent sourcing of more ventilators is a mystery to me.
And not or.
Can you do both directly?
It's usual with this kind of programme that you can't have it both ways. Otherwise the manufacturer can play games on pricing and volumes (you'd also have all sorts of double ordering).
There's a good argument for the benefit of coordinating orders - not the price one, but more about optimising capacity utilisation.
Equally there is a good argument that if everyone else is coordinating then it's better to be the one country that can play around the edges.
What is it about southwark, Westminster, lambeth and Brentbthat makes them the notes spots in England?
I think 99% of those living outside central London are just staggered that the London Underground system continues to operate to a significant extent. Recent pictures of the passengers crushed inside simply beggar belief, given the huge risks we are all facing. For sure this has to be one of the main reasons for the incidence of the disease in the Capital being so high.
Closing the tube would leave large numbers of key workers unable to get to work. The error is not to be running more trains.
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about this story?
No. We got the ventilators we wanted who gives a shit how?
it does seem odd - if the UK wasn't getting ventilators you could understand it but the complaint seems to be that the UK didn't join in a vague procurement arrangement.
There's nothing vague about it. It's a group of Governments advertising a contract and getting suppliers to bid.
I am also stunned how many people on here seem to think, "Brilliant - all our ventilator needs are now met by Dyson". Firstly, we don't know what peak demand for ventilators will be, and would clearly like to get more than Dyson can supply. Secondly, we have the problem of a single supplier who has never made ventilators - hopefully they will meet specs and timescales, but it'd be really good to hedge that risk.
Our government is speaking to manufacturers directly. Why would we need a middle organisation to speak to other suppliers? What is to stop suppliers speaking to the UK directly?
And yet the official reason for not participating is this: A UK government spokesperson said: "Owing to an initial communication problem, the UK did not receive an invitation in time to join in four joint procurements in response to the coronavirus pandemic.
"As the (European) Commission has confirmed, we are eligible to participate in joint procurements during the transition period, following our departure from the EU earlier this year.
"As those four initial procurement schemes had already gone out to tender we were unable to take part in these, but we will consider participating in future procurement schemes on the basis of public health requirements at the time." https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52052694
also: Why are other European governments participating if it's such a waste of time?
Maybe it's not a big deal and won't make a lot of difference at the end of the day, but the robotic insistence by some posters on here that the current UK government can, almost by definition, only have always made the best possible decision in every circumstance is kind of scary.
Why burn a bridge you may want in the future? A polite turn down now is better than burning a bridge and the line "on the basis of public health requirements at the time" is deliberately vague and doesn't commit us to either participating or not participating if it's worthwhile in the future or not.
If you can tell me one advantage to this scheme that wasn't found by speaking to manufacturers directly then I'd be more bothered.
But why have other European governments decided there is a point to it?
Not all have. And what EU countries besides the UK and Germany currently make ventilators at scale?
If you look at where there is light, flexible manufacturing in in Europe, I would reckon that Northern Italy (ironically), Germany, the Netherlands, Finland, and Sweden could all make ventilators relatively quickly.
Other countries would find it harder: Spain's manufacturing is mostly textiles. Ireland is computer assembly and pharmaceuticals. Portugal and Belgium are a few large plants, as I suspect is much of Eastern Europe. Luxembourg is tiny.
I am sure in time Europe has a whole would have no problem making masses of them. I think my point was currently, I believe there are only few firms.
Clearly the UK government are telling porkies, but we don't know why. Remain people will say look its cos Brexit, EU derangement, but nobody has seen what the deal was.
You would think that any rules would include,
a) you can't go off getting your own (see what is happening in the US, with states bidding against one another),
b) you will be centrally allocated based on some criteria that individual countries don't control
c) you have to share capacity with everybody else.
So, the obvious guess would be that the UK firm that produces a load of these already couldn't just keep them all for UK need. And the same with the other 2 strands of the UK approach, Dyson + the IP sharing consortium.
The risk is obviously if Dyson can't live up to their promise or it takes the other consortium a lot longer than they think to make the clones.
I presume he thinks he saw his mother on the day. But there is an unnecessary undertone there which leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.
Or it is just a joke based on Boris's "mis-speak" about Mothers Day.
No. He knows that if the British PM tells the entire population to forego the pleasure of seeing their mother on Mother’s Day, to keep them safe during a national emergency, then sneaks off to see his own mother in secret, and then by misfortune she catches the virus from him, it will be a massive story.
Yes and unionists trying to pretend it is just sniping at Tory liars shows it up as well. It is not do as I do it is do as I say, one rule for them and one for the plebs.
I believe you show symptoms between four and eleven days of contracting the virus, average seven days. Boris shows symptoms Thursday, so he contracted it at some point between a week prior to Mother’s Day and Mother’s Day itself. So, if he visited her, he was surely a carrier. But I have also read you aren’t infectious until at least four days after contracting the virus. So it will be a close run thing. If the odds of contracting it on a single contact are as low as 5% - as has been suggested - then the odds are, fortunately, heavily in her favour.
Quite why anyone thinks we should have added an extra layer of EU bureaucracy and EU politics into our urgent sourcing of more ventilators is a mystery to me.
I think you are right. Indeed the leaders' conference call yesterday has also gone very badly with the blocking of the Coronabond idea and some unpleasant comments from the Dutch about Spain. All a bit unedifying sadly.
The article I saw (which I think you linked?) had the Dutch opposing mutualised debt.
His criticism was that Spain should have run a budget surplus during the last 10 years and so it would have been able to afford it itself.
A little callous, perhaps, but not really "unpleasant". Frankly the whole "coronabond" idea strikes me as the people who have always wanted mutualised debt trying to avoid a good crisis going to waste.
Were there more comments that I missed?
The phrase "Now is not the time..." comes to mind.
What was it the chap said about "When my neighbours house is on fire, I lend him my hose, not quibble about the price"?
What is it about southwark, Westminster, lambeth and Brentbthat makes them the notes spots in England?
I think 99% of those living outside central London are just staggered that the London Underground system continues to operate to a significant extent. Recent pictures of the passengers crushed inside simply beggar belief, given the huge risks we are all facing. For sure this has to be one of the main reasons for the incidence of the disease in the Capital being so high.
It should either be closed altogether or continue to have a regular service so people aren't cramped together. But to keep it open with trains only every 20 minutes is not a good decision.
Quite why anyone thinks we should have added an extra layer of EU bureaucracy and EU politics into our urgent sourcing of more ventilators is a mystery to me.
I think you are right. Indeed the leaders' conference call yesterday has also gone very badly with the blocking of the Coronabond idea and some unpleasant comments from the Dutch about Spain. All a bit unedifying sadly.
The article I saw (which I think you linked?) had the Dutch opposing mutualised debt.
His criticism was that Spain should have run a budget surplus during the last 10 years and so it would have been able to afford it itself.
A little callous, perhaps, but not really "unpleasant". Frankly the whole "coronabond" idea strikes me as the people who have always wanted mutualised debt trying to avoid a good crisis going to waste.
Were there more comments that I missed?
There are lots of people with a variety of pet projects seeing this as a good crisis. Have you seen what the UBI proponents have been saying, and the far-left nationalisation-of-everything fans?
If, at the end of the crisis, EU countries have done significantly better at having ventilators available, then we can reasonably consider it was a mistake not to join in the joint procurement efforts. On the other hand, if they haven't, then it will be clear there was no mistake.
The die has been cast. We can work out who was right and who was wrong in about eight weeks.
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about this story?
No. We got the ventilators we wanted who gives a shit how?
it does seem odd - if the UK wasn't getting ventilators you could understand it but the complaint seems to be that the UK didn't join in a vague procurement arrangement.
There's nothing vague about it. It's a group of Governments advertising a contract and getting suppliers to bid.
I am also stunned how many people on here seem to think, "Brilliant - all our ventilator needs are now met by Dyson". Firstly, we don't know what peak demand for ventilators will be, and would clearly like to get more than Dyson can supply. Secondly, we have the problem of a single supplier who has never made ventilators - hopefully they will meet specs and timescales, but it'd be really good to hedge that risk.
Our government is speaking to manufacturers directly. Why would we need a middle organisation to speak to other suppliers? What is to stop suppliers speaking to the UK directly?
And yet the official reason for not participating is this: A UK government spokesperson said: "Owing to an initial communication problem, the UK did not receive an invitation in time to join in four joint procurements in response to the coronavirus pandemic.
"As the (European) Commission has confirmed, we are eligible to participate in joint procurements during the transition period, following our departure from the EU earlier this year.
"As those four initial procurement schemes had already gone out to tender we were unable to take part in these, but we will consider participating in future procurement schemes on the basis of public health requirements at the time." https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52052694
also: Why are other European governments participating if it's such a waste of time?
Maybe it's not a big deal and won't make a lot of difference at the end of the day, but the robotic insistence by some posters on here that the current UK government can, almost by definition, only have always made the best possible decision in every circumstance is kind of scary.
Why burn a bridge you may want in the future? A polite turn down now is better than burning a bridge and the line "on the basis of public health requirements at the time" is deliberately vague and doesn't commit us to either participating or not participating if it's worthwhile in the future or not.
If you can tell me one advantage to this scheme that wasn't found by speaking to manufacturers directly then I'd be more bothered.
But why have other European governments decided there is a point to it?
Not all have. And what EU countries besides the UK and Germany currently make ventilators at scale?
Sweden probably, via Getinge, although from recollection Getinge's Maquet division is based in Baden Baden so it may be counted in Germany
Quite why anyone thinks we should have added an extra layer of EU bureaucracy and EU politics into our urgent sourcing of more ventilators is a mystery to me.
I think you are right. Indeed the leaders' conference call yesterday has also gone very badly with the blocking of the Coronabond idea and some unpleasant comments from the Dutch about Spain. All a bit unedifying sadly.
The article I saw (which I think you linked?) had the Dutch opposing mutualised debt.
His criticism was that Spain should have run a budget surplus during the last 10 years and so it would have been able to afford it itself.
A little callous, perhaps, but not really "unpleasant". Frankly the whole "coronabond" idea strikes me as the people who have always wanted mutualised debt trying to avoid a good crisis going to waste.
Were there more comments that I missed?
Callous is a word often used instead of unpleasant - In the current climate in Spain I'd happily use both.
If, at the end of the crisis, EU countries have done significantly better at having ventilators available, then we can reasonably consider it was a mistake not to join in the joint procurement efforts. On the other hand, if they haven't, then it will be clear there was no mistake.
The die has been cast. We can work out who was right and who was wrong in about eight weeks.
You mean we can't argue and bitch about it now? Harumph.
Quite why anyone thinks we should have added an extra layer of EU bureaucracy and EU politics into our urgent sourcing of more ventilators is a mystery to me.
I think you are right. Indeed the leaders' conference call yesterday has also gone very badly with the blocking of the Coronabond idea and some unpleasant comments from the Dutch about Spain. All a bit unedifying sadly.
The article I saw (which I think you linked?) had the Dutch opposing mutualised debt.
His criticism was that Spain should have run a budget surplus during the last 10 years and so it would have been able to afford it itself.
A little callous, perhaps, but not really "unpleasant". Frankly the whole "coronabond" idea strikes me as the people who have always wanted mutualised debt trying to avoid a good crisis going to waste.
Were there more comments that I missed?
The reality is that debt is currently being mutualised on a massive scale through the ECB.
Re protection of politicians...If Boris and Hancock went around like Putin with his full chemical weapons hazmat suit.
a) the press would scream rich privileged not fair
b) it would scare the shit out of the public.
Now on b), I think we should be doing so i.e the AIDs type ads, but the policy of the government seems more along the lines of reassurance and to limit panic.
The Cabinet is going to be a political version of the Diamond Princess.
We can watch the rats of infection, severe illness and so on, and extrapolate to the larger population
Hopefully the rats of infection will tail off.
I am sure it is an issue gnawing at their thoughts. They will need to hole up for a while.
I hope that's a sign you're feeling better, Foxy!
Just about to start a remote meeting. Could be a total disaster as I've never used the tech for group chat before.
hope its not Webex :-)
Use it all the time and superb
Half of the meetings I end up having to dial in as Audio either doesn't work or cuts out in first 5 minutes
Never had many problems, an odd time some people have to drop video due to bandwidth , but I use all day and apart from a bit slow sharing large spreadsheets now and again it has been great.
- Rigid enforcement of EU procurement rules result in them ending up with Chinese produced ventilators, which turn out to be not fit for purpose - The Wallonian government delaying signing of the contract so they can debate whether this is really in the best interests of Wallonia
I don't think this is subject to national parliament approval (unlike some trade deals), so I don't think the latter is possible.
Beth Rigby is from the Kay burley school of journalism - thick as a plank.
Only yesterday the media questions were about how this lockdown is terrible for our health.....after the press pack called for a lockdown to protect the public's health.
If, at the end of the crisis, EU countries have done significantly better at having ventilators available, then we can reasonably consider it was a mistake not to join in the joint procurement efforts. On the other hand, if they haven't, then it will be clear there was no mistake.
The die has been cast. We can work out who was right and who was wrong in about eight weeks.
Yup - atm just a whole load of unnecessary hot air! Conseguire mi abrigo!
The Cabinet is going to be a political version of the Diamond Princess.
We can watch the rats of infection, severe illness and so on, and extrapolate to the larger population
Hopefully the rats of infection will tail off.
I am sure it is an issue gnawing at their thoughts. They will need to hole up for a while.
I hope that's a sign you're feeling better, Foxy!
Just about to start a remote meeting. Could be a total disaster as I've never used the tech for group chat before.
Yes, bright enough to potter in the garden. It is a bit up and down though.
IF I had this disease back in January, one of the distinct symptoms is how it fluctuates. You feel terrible, you feel better, you feel terrible again. V weird.
My wife told me last night that when she caught what I had, she had a coughing fit so bad she nearly fainted on the Tube (she'd never told me this before). In retrospect it does seem like we might have had it, maybe the antibody tests will tell me, when they are released.
Good luck to you and your wife.
Severaal people have posted wondering if their flu in January/December/November was Covid-19.
I have to say this is very, very unlikely that you had Covid-19. My evidence is that the virus is clearly very contageous: even the PM has caught it. But in February there were thousands of tests being carried out and only 100 or so came back positive. The negatives would have included a lot of random testing, and people presenting with flu symptoms wanting to know if it was Flu or Covid.
On top of that in over half of all the early cases there was an obviuos trace back to China. Then there was an obvoius trace back to Italy.
All of these point against the idea that Coronavirus was spreading widely in the UK undetected before mid-February, and the picture is similar in all European countries, just with a different take off date.
Why "even the PM"? Surely, given the number of people he meets, he's one of the most likely people to get it in the country.
I doubt if Boris spends his rush hours on the Tube.
Churchill did though. I know, 'cause I watched that movie.
Boris always got about London on his bike before becoming PM. It is one of the good things about him. I notice that bike shops have exempted from the close down order which is great for me because I've just had a puncture which my bike shop has fixed this afternoon.
My daily bike ride is keeping me sane. And there is a bike shop up the hill in case of puncture.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/27/joe-biden-coronavirus-bunker-151302 ...The first is how can he actually do any events outside of his basement that will get attention and coverage? The second is what can he say about Trump now? This is a new problem for Democrats. Ever since he rode down the escalator at Trump Tower in 2015 to announce his campaign, there has been absolutely no hesitation by any Democrat to attack Trump. Sometimes in the primaries this year candidates would make a point of emphasizing that they were more interested in explaining their policies rather than ripping into the president. But that’s only because there was a shared understanding between voters and Democratic candidates that Trump was irredeemable in every way.
Now, for the first time, some Democrats are wondering whether there could be a cost to pillorying the president.
“Biden has a thin line,” the outside adviser to Biden said. “As much as I dislike Trump and think what a bad job he’s doing, there’s a danger now that attacking him can backfire on you if you get too far out there. I don’t think the public wants to hear criticism of Trump right now.”
Then there’s the issue of Biden being denied one of his political strengths. Biden thrives on personal connection; the pandemic has robbed him of the ability to meet with actual people. In a recent interview with CNN, he recalled the pain of missing human contact. He can’t even be close to his deceased son Beau’s kids....
Given that the UK has left the EU, why would it participate anyway? It has clearly got its own scheme going on.
Not really an either/or, is it? There is nothing at all to prevent participating in a joint procurement AND making own, additional arrangements (as other countries are doing).
There's no such thing as a free lunch.
I don't think you understand how joint procurement processes work.
There is a competition among firms to meet the (joint) order and the offer is either acceptable in which case you sign the contract or not in which case you don't.
Participating was a no-brainer in this case and it is a major concern that the UK (apparently due to some kind of error on our part) didn't.
Why was it a no brainer? Time was of the essence so why outsource our order to third parties who might prioritise early shipments to Italy etc and leave us at the back of the queue?
We needed ventilators. We got ventilators. Job done.
Because you can easily do both.
Participating in a procurement process doesn't prevent you from pursuing other options. If the lead times promised by the successful tenderer are unacceptable, you just don't sign the contract, and there is nothing to prevent you from pursuing other options, even as the procurement proceeds.
Also, it is not (yet) clear that we do have sufficient ventilators. The Dyson order may stumble, and the numbers may be insufficient for our needs. We'd clearly be in a better place with the Dyson order but with the opportunity to get more from other suppliers.
Do you know the rules in this case?
It could be very easily a requirement that you don't procure independently.
Other EU countries appear to be ordering ventilators through other routes as well which suggests there are no restrictions on procuring independently.
The EU Commission also has I think stepped in to stop/reduce Germany and France's ban on export of necessary medical equipment to ensure solidarity within the bloc.
The first article is from March 5, though (the second is less specific on whether independent orders have been placed).
The second article mentioned that Getinge produces at Solna, so Sweden. You also have Hamilton in Switzerland, Draeger and Lowenstein in Germany and Smiths in Luton
Given that the UK has left the EU, why would it participate anyway? It has clearly got its own scheme going on.
Not really an either/or, is it? There is nothing at all to prevent participating in a joint procurement AND making own, additional arrangements (as other countries are doing).
There's no such thing as a free lunch.
I don't think you understand how joint procurement processes work.
There is a competition among firms to meet the (joint) order and the offer is either acceptable in which case you sign the contract or not in which case you don't.
Participating was a no-brainer in this case and it is a major concern that the UK (apparently due to some kind of error on our part) didn't.
Why was it a no brainer? Time was of the essence so why outsource our order to third parties who might prioritise early shipments to Italy etc and leave us at the back of the queue?
We needed ventilators. We got ventilators. Job done.
Because you can easily do both.
Participating in a procurement process doesn't prevent you from pursuing other options. If the lead times promised by the successful tenderer are unacceptable, you just don't sign the contract, and there is nothing to prevent you from pursuing other options, even as the procurement proceeds.
Also, it is not (yet) clear that we do have sufficient ventilators. The Dyson order may stumble, and the numbers may be insufficient for our needs. We'd clearly be in a better place with the Dyson order but with the opportunity to get more from other suppliers.
We aren't just buying from Dyson. We've got a considerable number coming in from many sources now.
How many and more crucialy by when seemed to be answers the Business Secretary was completely incapable of answering last night on Newsnight. In fact he resorted to calling questions of this nature "sniping from the sidelines" Maitless pointed out its what is most important and therefore her job.
Comments
If you can tell me one advantage to this scheme that wasn't found by speaking to manufacturers directly then I'd be more bothered.
After every man and his dog went to the beach at the weekend.
Percentages from low bases are quite variable. Hopefully the percentages don't continue at that rate.
It could be very easily a requirement that you don't procure independently.
I suggest you watch this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCa0JXEwDEk
a) get more ventilators that way
b) get them quicker
c) have not been unable to source them outside the scheme in addition if we joined
And that's because, while you may show symptoms at 7-10 days, you're unlikely to end up in hospital (and therefore get counted) for another 4-7 days.
May hopefully not.
Other countries would find it harder: Spain's manufacturing is mostly textiles. Ireland is computer assembly and pharmaceuticals. Portugal and Belgium are a few large plants, as I suspect is much of Eastern Europe. Luxembourg is tiny.
It's almost as if they wanted to score political points rather than as a matter of genuine concern.
- Rigid enforcement of EU procurement rules result in them ending up with Chinese produced ventilators, which turn out to be not fit for purpose
- The Wallonian government delaying signing of the contract so they can debate whether this is really in the best interests of Wallonia
The EU Commission also has I think stepped in to stop/reduce Germany and France's ban on export of necessary medical equipment to ensure solidarity within the bloc.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-draegerwerk-ventil/germany-italy-rush-to-buy-life-saving-ventilators-as-manufacturers-warn-of-shortages-idUSKBN210362
https://www.bioworld.com/articles/433964-covid-19-is-causing-supply-issues-for-ventilators-in-france
https://twitter.com/ThierryBreton/status/1239159582821408770?s=20
SERIOUS amounts of bullshit.....
His criticism was that Spain should have run a budget surplus during the last 10 years and so it would have been able to afford it itself.
A little callous, perhaps, but not really "unpleasant". Frankly the whole "coronabond" idea strikes me as the people who have always wanted mutualised debt trying to avoid a good crisis going to waste.
Were there more comments that I missed?
It's usual with this kind of programme that you can't have it both ways. Otherwise the manufacturer can play games on pricing and volumes (you'd also have all sorts of double ordering).
There's a good argument for the benefit of coordinating orders - not the price one, but more about optimising capacity utilisation.
Equally there is a good argument that if everyone else is coordinating then it's better to be the one country that can play around the edges.
Clearly the UK government are telling porkies, but we don't know why. Remain people will say look its cos Brexit, EU derangement, but nobody has seen what the deal was.
You would think that any rules would include,
a) you can't go off getting your own (see what is happening in the US, with states bidding against one another),
b) you will be centrally allocated based on some criteria that individual countries don't control
c) you have to share capacity with everybody else.
So, the obvious guess would be that the UK firm that produces a load of these already couldn't just keep them all for UK need. And the same with the other 2 strands of the UK approach, Dyson + the IP sharing consortium.
The risk is obviously if Dyson can't live up to their promise or it takes the other consortium a lot longer than they think to make the clones.
What was it the chap said about "When my neighbours house is on fire, I lend him my hose, not quibble about the price"?
https://twitter.com/gorbalsgoebbels/status/1243551454608199680?s=20
https://twitter.com/Lozzerdude/status/1243527419195207683?s=20
Is Trump writing his own epitaph?
If, at the end of the crisis, EU countries have done significantly better at having ventilators available, then we can reasonably consider it was a mistake not to join in the joint procurement efforts. On the other hand, if they haven't, then it will be clear there was no mistake.
The die has been cast. We can work out who was right and who was wrong in about eight weeks.
1. 🦶🦵 🅱️🗣 (History will be kind to this leader)
2. 👉👌😴 🥳 (Champagne Club)
3. 🤥🤗 🗳🗳 (Architects of austerity)
4. 🖼📹 📷💁♂️ (Won a referendum)
5. 🌲🌲 0️⃣5️⃣ (Cereal Rebel)
6. 🇩🇪 😱🗑 (Serial loser)
7. 🚗📈 🚽🍑 (Greta before Greta was cool)
8. 🔑👂 ⭐️👩👦👦 (Mr Remain)
9. 🦈😬 🇦🇺👼 (Long-term economic plan)
Answers on a post card.
Disclaimer: some of these are really shit.
a) the press would scream rich privileged not fair
b) it would scare the shit out of the public.
Now on b), I think we should be doing so i.e the AIDs type ads, but the policy of the government seems more along the lines of reassurance and to limit panic.
1. Toe-knee Blair
4. David Cameron?
8. Keir Starmer
The intended audience are not huge politics nerds so I’ve had to go fairly basic.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/27/joe-biden-coronavirus-bunker-151302
...The first is how can he actually do any events outside of his basement that will get attention and coverage? The second is what can he say about Trump now? This is a new problem for Democrats. Ever since he rode down the escalator at Trump Tower in 2015 to announce his campaign, there has been absolutely no hesitation by any Democrat to attack Trump. Sometimes in the primaries this year candidates would make a point of emphasizing that they were more interested in explaining their policies rather than ripping into the president. But that’s only because there was a shared understanding between voters and Democratic candidates that Trump was irredeemable in every way.
Now, for the first time, some Democrats are wondering whether there could be a cost to pillorying the president.
“Biden has a thin line,” the outside adviser to Biden said. “As much as I dislike Trump and think what a bad job he’s doing, there’s a danger now that attacking him can backfire on you if you get too far out there. I don’t think the public wants to hear criticism of Trump right now.”
Then there’s the issue of Biden being denied one of his political strengths. Biden thrives on personal connection; the pandemic has robbed him of the ability to meet with actual people. In a recent interview with CNN, he recalled the pain of missing human contact. He can’t even be close to his deceased son Beau’s kids....
The second article mentioned that Getinge produces at Solna, so Sweden. You also have Hamilton in Switzerland, Draeger and Lowenstein in Germany and Smiths in Luton
9 George Osbourne?