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  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214
    edited March 2020
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    CYCLEFREE’s GARDENING CORNER

    In response to @MattW’s question re pruning of forsythia.

    1. Get some sharp clean secateurs so the cut is a clean one. You don’t want to be tearing at the twigs or branches.

    2. No problem with pruning now - or you could wait until it’s finished flowering. The advantage of pruning now is that the stems with flowers you cut off can be put in the house to brighten it. The forsythia will still flower next year. It’s a tough old plant.

    3. Lop off all the long extra stems that are sticking out. Then gradually cut down to the height and width you want. Aim to make it a rounded shape - a bit like a rounded arch - so that it looks pleasing to you and so as you pass it there aren’t bits sticking into you or catching. There is no magic to this - just step back every few minutes just to look at it form different angles.

    4. The key to this is to remember that all plants will grow up to the light so if you leave the they will just reach for the sky. If untouched this ends up leaving you with lots of flowers at the top and bare branches at the bottom. So by cutting at the top and cutting the shoots heading skywards you force the plant to send out side shoots which will flower and it will look rounder and squatter and fatter so you get a burst of really bright yellow sunshine just where you want it.

    5. Cut just above a flower or bud - a nice neat cut and sloping downwards. This minimises the possibility of any infection. Cut right down to the base any stems which look empty or straggly.

    Plants are fine with pruning. It generally makes them stronger. Forsythia is as tough as old boots.

    How is your daughter coping?
    Yesterday was, understandably, quite an emotional day for her. For her team. For us all. It’s a family business now.

    The pub/restaurant is right in the centre of the village - everyone goes there to meet, chat, share gossip,information, look out for each other. A lot of business gets done there - it’s not just a drinking and eating venue. So it will be missed and my daughter will find the social isolation by contrast with her normal every day busyness very hard - harder than for me, I suspect.

    She has a good business brain though and a toughness which will help. I am so proud of her.

    She has already started a takeaway / delivery service - including for some essential goods - targeted on the isolated so as a social service as much as anything. She has volunteers to help. She will look to see how the latest proposals will help and she will need to have a conversation with her landlord about the rent.

    The biggest difficulty is not knowing the timescale. If this goes on for a year, the decision is a very different one to a 3-month shutdown. And no-one knows.

    What breaks my heart is that a few weeks ago she was talking excitedly about various plans she had to expand business / had prepared lots of varied menus - they were changed every week - and had plans to go into the holiday rental / B&B market. All on hold and very possibly ended now. All that hope crushed - or so it feels like. So I am going to do whatever I can to support her.

    I have also urged my 2 sons, who were job-hunting to look at those supermarket jobs. Any work is better than none. This is no time for snobbery about graduate jobs, frankly.

    Best wishes to @Charles for his Dad, @MaxPB and @GideonWise.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    edited March 2020

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    Exactly the way the media operate against the current government. It's what they do in the 24 hours news age. And it's not just the British media either. I've not noticed your posts about this.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,995

    FPT:

    Do you think the root cause could be a form of British nationalism that denies English nationhood? Before the recent fetishisation of "the UK", we knew very well what England was.

    Surely the English have been running the show since well before the Act of Union? The UK Parliament has always been composed of 3/4 English seats and the rest of the country gets maybe up to 25%.

    So any wounds are likely self-inflicted...
    How do you explain the Gordon Brown adminstration then?

    Scottish MPs occupied several key offices of state and ministries.
    That does not alter the fact that the bulk of MPs were English as was a large number of his cabinet.
    Never happy having it as always England's choices, they are unhappy that Scotland ever gets any representation and amazed that dumb Scots could actually be in an office of state as if we are all morons compared to those genius English.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Philip Green trending. Sanders is going to lose the US election, but he might win the battle of ideas.
  • Options

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    But this is important.

    Any idea the EU would block any part of the chancellor's proposals is outrageous and it does need confirmation that it will not interfere in UK policy re covid 19.

    Surely all the EU supporters on here can see how toxic for the EU this could become
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226
    edited March 2020

    That is not an answer. Please provide link to denial

    It is THE answer. The only answer. The claim is too ridiculous to merit a denial.

    Those rules are for normal times. There is not the remotest possibility of the EU stopping any aspect of the package.

    All one needs to realize this is what I said - a brain cell.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,003
    nichomar said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It’s bad journalism used to wind up the anti EU sentiment, has anyobpne seen any such notice from the EU. Apart from the fact that they would get clearance in 24 hours if they wanted it or they could use the emergency clause to do what they want.
    Boris was pretty definite the other day that we would be leaving on 31/12/2020, so it could be that there's such a 'leak'.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,995

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    Hard to believe the stupidity of the evangelist Brexiteers, the letters EU make them lose their minds.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    But this is important.

    Any idea the EU would block any part of the chancellor's proposals is outrageous and it does need confirmation that it will not interfere in UK policy re covid 19.

    Surely all the EU supporters on here can see how toxic for the EU this could become
    To be fair your reaction is a little hysterical. If they tried to enforce such a rule it would be ignored and not just by the UK. There are more important issues to contemplate today.
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    That is not an answer. Please provide link to denial

    It is THE answer. The only answer. The claim is too ridiculous to merit a denial.

    Those rules are for normal times. There is not the remotest possibility of the EU stopping any aspect of the package.

    All one needs to realize this is what I said - a brain cell.
    You are not getting away with such a non answer

    A denial has to be produced.

    With the greatest respect there is no reason at all why we should believe you
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    edited March 2020

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    But this is important.

    Any idea the EU would block any part of the chancellor's proposals is outrageous and it does need confirmation that it will not interfere in UK policy re covid 19.

    Surely all the EU supporters on here can see how toxic for the EU this could become
    Laughable. The EU has around a thousand of it's citizens dieing every day now. They aren't going to give a flying fuck about the Corbynomics package Rishi Sunak announced the other day.
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,307

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    But this is important.

    Any idea the EU would block any part of the chancellor's proposals is outrageous and it does need confirmation that it will not interfere in UK policy re covid 19.

    Surely all the EU supporters on here can see how toxic for the EU this could become
    This time tomorrow, if not in a few hours, everyone will have forgotten this silliness. Let's not waste any more time on it.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    But this is important.

    Any idea the EU would block any part of the chancellor's proposals is outrageous and it does need confirmation that it will not interfere in UK policy re covid 19.

    Surely all the EU supporters on here can see how toxic for the EU this could become
    Here’s confirmation of Denmark’s exemption, granted within 24 hours:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_454

  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Cyclefree said:


    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    CYCLEFREE’s GARDENING CORNER

    In response to @MattW’s question re pruning of forsythia.

    1. Get some sharp clean secateurs so the cut is a clean one. You don’t want to be tearing at the twigs or branches.

    2. No problem with pruning now - or you could wait until it’s finished flowering. The advantage of pruning now is that the stems with flowers you cut off can be put in the house to brighten it. The forsythia will still flower next year. It’s a tough old plant.

    3. Lop off all the long extra stems that are sticking out. Then gradually cut down to the height and width you want. Aim to make it a rounded shape - a bit like a rounded arch - so that it looks pleasing to you and so as you pass it there aren’t bits sticking into you or catching. There is no magic to this - just step back every few minutes just to look at it form different angles.

    4. The key to this is to remember that all plants will grow up to the light so if you leave the they will just reach for the sky. If untouched this ends up leaving you with lots of flowers at the top and bare branches at the bottom. So by cutting at the top and cutting the shoots heading skywards you force the plant to send out side shoots which will flower and it will look rounder and squatter and fatter so you get a burst of really bright yellow sunshine just where you want it.

    5. Cut just above a flower or bud - a nice neat cut and sloping downwards. This minimises the possibility of any infection. Cut right down to the base any stems which look empty or straggly.

    Plants are fine with pruning. It generally makes them stronger. Forsythia is as tough as old boots.

    How is your daughter coping?
    Yesterday was, understandably, quite an emotional day for her. For her team. For us all. It’s a family business now.

    The pub/restaurant is right in the centre of the village - everyone goes there to meet, chat, share gossip,information, look out for each other. A lot of business gets done there - it’s not just a drinking and eating venue. So it will be missed and my daughter will find the social isolation by contrast with her normal every day busyness very hard - harder than for me, I suspect.

    She has a good business brain though and a toughness which will help. I am so proud of her.

    She has already started a takeaway / delivery service - including for some essential goods - targeted on the isolated so as a social service as much as anything. She has volunteers to help. She will look to see how the latest proposals will help and she will need to have a conversation with her landlord about the rent.

    The biggest difficulty is not knowing the timescale. If this goes on for a year, the decision is a very different one to a 3-month shutdown. And no-one knows.

    What breaks my heart is that a few weeks ago she was talking excitedly about various plans she had to expand business / had prepared lots of varied menus - they were changed every week - and had plans to go into the holiday rental / B&B market. All on hold and very possibly ended now. All that hope crushed - or so it feels like. So I am going to do whatever I can to support her.

    I have also urged my 2 sons, who were job-hunting to look at those supermarket jobs. Any work is better than none. This is no time for snobbery about graduate jobs, frankly.

    Best wishes to @Charles for his Dad, @MaxPB and @GideonWise.
    Our garden centre has a modest farm shop attached to it. It has started a delivery service. For which it is getting huge kudos with the Crumblies in the surrounding countryside.

    Tell your daughter to do some fliers - and get them out there. Once people know it is an option, it will get taken up. And it will hold her in extremely good stead once something like normal returns.

    People WILL remember.
  • Options
    alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    I don't know if this has been referenced before but it addresses an issue which has always exercised me; how may ADDITIONAL deaths are caused by Covid 19? The high risk groups will have a high attrition rate without Covid 19 and the quoted data for Covid 19 deaths is of people who have died with the virus present (not causal). Flu deaths are counted as additional to deaths from other causes. I would have thought that counting Covid 19 deaths in a similar fashion would reduce percentages in 70+ set and increase them in all other sets.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51979654
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,003
    Just been announced that the Big Issue will no longer be sold on the streets. 'Big Issue founder Lord John Bird said the move was aimed at safeguarding the health of the vendors, many of whom are homeless.'
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,995

    RobD said:

    Thanks to Davoid for adding to the general merriment :). But seriously, we do need to be thinking about these things.

    Isn't another possibility that Chinese production of most things (including tinned food) recovers (IF they have overcome the virus) and people short of domestic goods to buy swirch to buying Chinese exports on a scale not yet seen? As a result, the renminbi shoots up, the Chinese population accelerates to first world standards, and the rest of the world gets poorer - but not necessarily dramatically so.

    This "Chinese economy to the rescue" scenario may sound unliukely, but it's actually pretty much what's happened with consumer goods already - they would be far more expensive except that we've all switched to buying cheaper Asian-made exports.

    People worried about chlorinated chicken are going to buy food from a country that incredibly low food hygiene standards, regularly has large scale food scandals due to counterfeit and tampering, such as the contaminated milk powder and where the lack of even the most minimal animal welfare standards more than likely was the source for this outbreak in the first place.

    Well its a theory.
    If there had been chlorinated pangolin, none of this would have happened. Just sayin'
    This is very funny. Also very true.
    The Tories would have been trying to get it imported for certain.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited March 2020
    https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/10-days-that-changed-britains-coronavirus-approach?ref=hpsplash

    Very disturbing article.

    Cabinet member playing politics. Johnson got it wrong. Cummings is too close to Vallance and just ignoring other scientists. Rishi was too little too late.

    Whoever the fuck that Cabinet Minister is they should be sacked
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,995
    Couple of days in the house and the Brexiteers have gone crazy, they see the EU behind every tree or bush
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    CYCLEFREE’s GARDENING CORNER

    In response to @MattW’s question re pruning of forsythia.

    1. Get some sharp clean secateurs so the cut is a clean one. You don’t want to be tearing at the twigs or branches.

    2. No problem with pruning now - or you could wait until it’s finished flowering. The advantage of pruning now is that the stems with flowers you cut off can be put in the house to brighten it. The forsythia will still flower next year. It’s a tough old plant.

    3. Lop off all the long extra stems that are sticking out. Then gradually cut down to the height and width you want. Aim to make it a rounded shape - a bit like a rounded arch - so that it looks pleasing to you and so as you pass it there aren’t bits sticking into you or catching. There is no magic to this - just step back every few minutes just to look at it form different angles.

    4. The key to this is to remember that all plants will grow up to the light so if you leave the they will just reach for the sky. If untouched this ends up leaving you with lots of flowers at the top and bare branches at the bottom. So by cutting at the top and cutting the shoots heading skywards you force the plant to send out side shoots which will flower and it will look rounder and squatter and fatter so you get a burst of really bright yellow sunshine just where you want it.

    5. Cut just above a flower or bud - a nice neat cut and sloping downwards. This minimises the possibility of any infection. Cut right down to the base any stems which look empty or straggly.

    Plants are fine with pruning. It generally makes them stronger. Forsythia is as tough as old boots.

    Next week: wisteria?
    Wisteria is easy... In August cut the stems back to five buds each, leaving any you intend to form new branches. Train as required. In January trim the same stems back to three buds. Otherwise leave well alone.
    We planted one on the corner of the house about three years ago. It flowered for the first time last year - very well, an unusual pale mauve flower rather than blue.
    However, I think I am going to have to get rather agressive with the pruning. It already has a slightly malevolent presence. I'm thinking a flowerng version of the Whomping Willow....
  • Options

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    But this is important.

    Any idea the EU would block any part of the chancellor's proposals is outrageous and it does need confirmation that it will not interfere in UK policy re covid 19.

    Surely all the EU supporters on here can see how toxic for the EU this could become
    Here’s confirmation of Denmark’s exemption, granted within 24 hours:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_454

    The issue can then be resolved, as it should be, by the EU immediately granting an exemption

    That then resolves the matter

    Let us hope that is what happens, anything else is unacceptable
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Germany has just announced its own huge package. That plus the ECB’s action earlier in the week is a massive sea change. Truly historic times.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,003

    Cyclefree said:


    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    CYCLEFREE’s GARDENING CORNER

    In response to @MattW’s question re pruning of forsythia.

    1. Get some sharp clean secateurs so the cut is a clean one. You don’t want to be tearing at the twigs or branches.

    2. No problem with pruning now - or you could wait until it’s finished flowering. The advantage of pruning now is that the stems with flowers you cut off can be put in the house to brighten it. The forsythia will still flower next year. It’s a tough old plant.

    3. Lop off all the long extra stems that are sticking out. Then gradually cut down to the height and width you want. Aim to make it a rounded shape - a bit like a rounded arch - so that it looks pleasing to you and so as you pass it there aren’t bits sticking into you or catching. There is no magic to this - just step back every few minutes just to look at it form different angles.

    4. The key to this is to remember that all plants will grow up to the light so if you leave the they will just reach for the sky. If untouched this ends up leaving you with lots of flowers at the top and bare branches at the bottom. So by cutting at the top and cutting the shoots heading skywards you force the plant to send out side shoots which will flower and it will look rounder and squatter and fatter so you get a burst of really bright yellow sunshine just where you want it.

    5. Cut just above a flower or bud - a nice neat cut and sloping downwards. This minimises the possibility of any infection. Cut right down to the base any stems which look empty or straggly.

    Plants are fine with pruning. It generally makes them stronger. Forsythia is as tough as old boots.

    How is your daughter coping?
    Yesterday was, understandably, quite an emotional day for her. For her team. For us all. It’s a family business now.

    The pub/restaurant is right in the centre of the village - everyone goes there to meet, chat, share gossip,information, look out for each other. A lot of business gets done there - it’s not just a drinking and eating venue. So it will be missed and my daughter will find the social isolation by contrast with her normal every day busyness very hard - harder than for me, I suspect.

    She has a good business brain though and a toughness which will help. I am so proud of her.

    She has already started a takeaway / delivery service - including for some essential goods - targeted on the isolated so as a social service as much as anything. She has volunteers to help. She will look to see how the latest proposals will help and she will need to have a conversation with her landlord about the rent.

    The biggest difficulty is not knowing the timescale. If this goes on for a year, the decision is a very different one to a 3-month shutdown. And no-one knows.

    What breaks my heart is that a few weeks ago she was talking excitedly about various plans she had to expand business / had prepared lots of varied menus - they were changed every week - and had plans to go into the holiday rental / B&B market. All on hold and very possibly ended now. All that hope crushed - or so it feels like. So I am going to do whatever I can to support her.

    I have also urged my 2 sons, who were job-hunting to look at those supermarket jobs. Any work is better than none. This is no time for snobbery about graduate jobs, frankly.

    Best wishes to @Charles for his Dad, @MaxPB and @GideonWise.
    Our garden centre has a modest farm shop attached to it. It has started a delivery service. For which it is getting huge kudos with the Crumblies in the surrounding countryside.

    Tell your daughter to do some fliers - and get them out there. Once people know it is an option, it will get taken up. And it will hold her in extremely good stead once something like normal returns.

    People WILL remember.
    I agree with Mr M. I live in a fairly small community and the pubs are doing this. Lots of goodwill on the local Facebook site.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    Hard to believe the stupidity of the evangelist Brexiteers, the letters EU make them lose their minds.
    We are miles behind the reaction the letters UK engender in some though, malc!
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214
    edited March 2020

    Cyclefree said:


    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    CYCLEFREE’s GARDENING CORNER

    In response to @MattW’s question re pruning of forsythia.

    1. Get some sharp clean secateurs so the cut is a clean one. You don’t want to be tearing at the twigs or branches.

    2. No problem with pruning now - or you could wait until it’s finished flowering. The advantage of pruning now is that the stems with flowers you cut off can be put in the house to brighten it. The forsythia will still flower next year. It’s a tough old plant.

    3. Lop off all the long extra stems that are sticking out. Then gradually cut down to the height and width you want. Aim to make it a rounded shape - a bit like a rounded arch - so that it looks pleasing to you and so as you pass it there aren’t bits sticking into you or catching. There is no magic to this - just step back every few minutes just to look at it form different angles.

    4. The key to this is to remember that all plants will grow up to the light so if you leave the they will just reach for the sky. If untouched this ends up leaving you with lots of flowers at the top and bare branches at the bottom. So by cutting at the top and cutting the shoots heading skywards you force the plant to send out side shoots which will flower and it will look rounder and squatter and fatter so you get a burst of really bright yellow sunshine just where you want it.

    5. Cut just above a flower or bud - a nice neat cut and sloping downwards. This minimises the possibility of any infection. Cut right down to the base any stems which look empty or straggly.

    Plants are fine with pruning. It generally makes them stronger. Forsythia is as tough as old boots.

    How is your daughter coping?
    Yesterday was, understandably, quite an emotional day for her. For her team. For us all. It’s a family business now.

    The pub/restaurant is right in the centre of the village - everyone goes there to meet, chat, share gossip,information, look out for each other. A lot of business gets done there - it’s not just a drinking and eating venue. So it will be missed and my daughter will find the social isolation by contrast with her normal every day busyness very hard - harder than for me, I suspect.

    She has a good business brain though and a toughness which will help. I am so proud of her.

    She has already started a takeaway / delivery service - including for some essential goods - targeted on the isolated so as a social service as much as anything. She has volunteers to help. She will look to see how the latest proposals will help and she will need to have a conversation with her landlord about the rent.

    The biggest difficulty is not knowing the timescale. If this goes on for a year, the decision is a very different one to a 3-month shutdown. And no-one knows.

    What breaks my heart is that a few weeks ago she was talking excitedly about various plans she had to expand business / had prepared lots of varied menus - they were changed every week - and had plans to go into the holiday rental / B&B market. All on hold and very possibly ended now. All that hope crushed - or so it feels like. So I am going to do whatever I can to support her.

    I have also urged my 2 sons, who were job-hunting to look at those supermarket jobs. Any work is better than none. This is no time for snobbery about graduate jobs, frankly.

    Best wishes to @Charles for his Dad, @MaxPB and @GideonWise.
    Our garden centre has a modest farm shop attached to it. It has started a delivery service. For which it is getting huge kudos with the Crumblies in the surrounding countryside.

    Tell your daughter to do some fliers - and get them out there. Once people know it is an option, it will get taken up. And it will hold her in extremely good stead once something like normal returns.

    People WILL remember.
    She has sent the fliers out already - on Tuesday- and on social media. Positive response so far. Some of her stock is being bought by a firm which will use it for its workers. The local newspaper is also highlighting independent venues - basically giving them free advertising so have urged her to take that up. It’s a close community here so that will I hope help.

    Today, for instance, I have been offered freshly baked scones by a neighbour. They can be my husband’s birthday tea - we were due to celebrate at her restaurant.....

    Instead he’s repairing the beach hut looking out onto the Irish Sea - for when/if things get really bad.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079
    Monkeys said:

    Monkeys said:

    This whole thing could have second waves, and other countries getting their peaks later, and countries will want to limit movement for long after until it becomes part of the psyche. This morning I'm wondering which will be the first party to come up with a "progressive" low-immigration policy. People won't be moving about for a long time after this. You could come up with a Greta Thunberg argument or something that a smaller, more local world is more environmentally friendly.

    If restricting the movement of people is the aim, focusing on reducing tourism and business travel would have more relevance.
    And travel to visit family. But also, this is what pandemics do - they make people more anti-immigration. People are going to get used to controlling borders. One thing that's amusing me about all this is that people that were previously remainers have often been very vocal about shutting the country down and restricting movement, and going WHY haven't we closed all the schools and shut down all the flights YESTERDAY? This will impact our minds long-term I think. It's not about aims, it's about outcomes.
    Restricting the kind of movement that spreads pandemics also means things like reducing commuting. Political borders and migration are a very minor aspect of it.

    Do you think the long-term response in the USA will be restrictions on movement between states?
  • Options
    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,389
    Where is this article in the Times? I can't find it in my hard copy or online
  • Options
    alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    Thanks to Davoid for adding to the general merriment :). But seriously, we do need to be thinking about these things.

    Isn't another possibility that Chinese production of most things (including tinned food) recovers (IF they have overcome the virus) and people short of domestic goods to buy swirch to buying Chinese exports on a scale not yet seen? As a result, the renminbi shoots up, the Chinese population accelerates to first world standards, and the rest of the world gets poorer - but not necessarily dramatically so.

    This "Chinese economy to the rescue" scenario may sound unliukely, but it's actually pretty much what's happened with consumer goods already - they would be far more expensive except that we've all switched to buying cheaper Asian-made exports.

    People worried about chlorinated chicken are going to buy food from a country that incredibly low food hygiene standards, regularly has large scale food scandals due to counterfeit and tampering, such as the contaminated milk powder and where the lack of even the most minimal animal welfare standards more than likely was the source for this outbreak in the first place.

    Well its a theory.
    If there had been chlorinated pangolin, none of this would have happened. Just sayin'
    This is very funny. Also very true.
    The Tories would have been trying to get it imported for certain.
    I don't think there would have been enough to go round
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,995

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Is there a source saying it is untrue? ;)
    Repeated FPT: Is this EU story actually true or fake news?

    Sounds like the Danish scheme was approved in 24 hrs despite also being against the rules. If this is just a journalist realising its against some rules that can be waived its fake news and pathetic journalism trying to sow division at a time like this.

    I dont have access to the Times so not sure if the EU are genuinely trying to stop the aid or someone is just quoting existing rules which are already being waived in the exceptional circumstances?
    If it is in the Times it is guaranteed to be anti EU Tory bullshit , just trying to stir up numpty Leavers into getting their jingoistic hair shirts on and get them to berate nasty foreigners interfering in their great Empire, how very dare they.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079

    Germany has just announced its own huge package. That plus the ECB’s action earlier in the week is a massive sea change. Truly historic times.

    Pooled debt is getting some support in Germany.

    https://twitter.com/jsuedekum/status/1241089308993433602
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    felix said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    Exactly the way the media operate against the current government. It's what they do in the 24 hours news age. And it's not just the British media either. I've not noticed your posts about this.
    felix said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    Exactly the way the media operate against the current government. It's what they do in the 24 hours news age. And it's not just the British media either. I've not noticed your posts about this.
    Actually can we have a link to prove it’s true
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226
    edited March 2020

    You are not getting away with such a non answer

    A denial has to be produced.

    With the greatest respect there is no reason at all why we should believe you

    Thinking cap please.

    If the EU blocks any part of Sunak's package I will self immolate for the rest of 2020.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    I hadn't realised that Bloomberg was British.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,995

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    Hard to believe the stupidity of the evangelist Brexiteers, the letters EU make them lose their minds.
    We are miles behind the reaction the letters UK engender in some though, malc!
    Unfortunately for us Mark, unlike the EU rubbish those tales are true.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    CYCLEFREE’s GARDENING CORNER

    In response to @MattW’s question re pruning of forsythia.

    1. Get some sharp clean secateurs so the cut is a clean one. You don’t want to be tearing at the twigs or branches.

    2. No problem with pruning now - or you could wait until it’s finished flowering. The advantage of pruning now is that the stems with flowers you cut off can be put in the house to brighten it. The forsythia will still flower next year. It’s a tough old plant.

    3. Lop off all the long extra stems that are sticking out. Then gradually cut down to the height and width you want. Aim to make it a rounded shape - a bit like a rounded arch - so that it looks pleasing to you and so as you pass it there aren’t bits sticking into you or catching. There is no magic to this - just step back every few minutes just to look at it form different angles.

    4. The key to this is to remember that all plants will grow up to the light so if you leave the they will just reach for the sky. If untouched this ends up leaving you with lots of flowers at the top and bare branches at the bottom. So by cutting at the top and cutting the shoots heading skywards you force the plant to send out side shoots which will flower and it will look rounder and squatter and fatter so you get a burst of really bright yellow sunshine just where you want it.

    5. Cut just above a flower or bud - a nice neat cut and sloping downwards. This minimises the possibility of any infection. Cut right down to the base any stems which look empty or straggly.

    Plants are fine with pruning. It generally makes them stronger. Forsythia is as tough as old boots.

    How is your daughter coping?
    Yesterday was, understandably, quite an emotional day for her. For her team. For us all. It’s a family business now.

    The pub/restaurant is right in the centre of the village - everyone goes there to meet, chat, share gossip,information, look out for each other. A lot of business gets done there - it’s not just a drinking and eating venue. So it will be missed and my daughter will find the social isolation by contrast with her normal every day busyness very hard - harder than for me, I suspect.

    She has a good business brain though and a toughness which will help. I am so proud of her.

    She has already started a takeaway / delivery service - including for some essential goods - targeted on the isolated so as a social service as much as anything. She has volunteers to help. She will look to see how the latest proposals will help and she will need to have a conversation with her landlord about the rent.

    The biggest difficulty is not knowing the timescale. If this goes on for a year, the decision is a very different one to a 3-month shutdown. And no-one knows.

    What breaks my heart is that a few weeks ago she was talking excitedly about various plans she had to expand business / had prepared lots of varied menus - they were changed every week - and had plans to go into the holiday rental / B&B market. All on hold and very possibly ended now. All that hope crushed - or so it feels like. So I am going to do whatever I can to support her.

    I have also urged my 2 sons, who were job-hunting to look at those supermarket jobs. Any work is better than none. This is no time for snobbery about graduate jobs, frankly.

    Best wishes to @Charles for his Dad, @MaxPB and @GideonWise.
    Our garden centre has a modest farm shop attached to it. It has started a delivery service. For which it is getting huge kudos with the Crumblies in the surrounding countryside.

    Tell your daughter to do some fliers - and get them out there. Once people know it is an option, it will get taken up. And it will hold her in extremely good stead once something like normal returns.

    People WILL remember.
    She has sent the fliers out already - on Tuesday- and on social media. Positive response so far. Some of her stock is being bought by a firm which will use it for its workers. The local newspaper is also highlighting independent venues - basically giving them free advertising so have urged her to take that up. It’s a close community here so that will I hope help.

    Today, for instance, I have been offered freshly baked scones by a neighbour. They can be my husband’s birthday tea - we were due to celebrate at her restaurant.....

    Instead he’s repairing the beach hut looking out onto the Irish Sea - for when/if things get really bad.
    You also doing a line in Isolation Huts now?
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,844
    kinabalu said:


    Thinking cap please.
    If the EU blocks any part of Sunak's package I will self immolate for the rest of 2020.

    Is that a little polluting to burn for a whole year?

  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Yorkcity said:

    Is a National Government really a possibility - and would it be a good thing?

    I am sure we all want the likes Richard Burgon and Dawn Butler having influence over the government strategy....
    Sir Kier Starmer and Lisa Nandy would be an asset to a national unity government imo.
    Even BJ hero Churchil had a better government with prominent Labour cabinet members.
    True, but you'd also need to find RLB a role.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    But this is important.

    Any idea the EU would block any part of the chancellor's proposals is outrageous and it does need confirmation that it will not interfere in UK policy re covid 19.

    Surely all the EU supporters on here can see how toxic for the EU this could become
    Here’s confirmation of Denmark’s exemption, granted within 24 hours:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_454

    That sounds as though it falls under the current state aid threshold. Unless fewer than 15 companies were effected.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,995

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    But this is important.

    Any idea the EU would block any part of the chancellor's proposals is outrageous and it does need confirmation that it will not interfere in UK policy re covid 19.

    Surely all the EU supporters on here can see how toxic for the EU this could become
    Here’s confirmation of Denmark’s exemption, granted within 24 hours:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_454

    The issue can then be resolved, as it should be, by the EU immediately granting an exemption

    That then resolves the matter

    Let us hope that is what happens, anything else is unacceptable
    G, it is absolute bell end rubbish, how can you be taken in so easily by absolute horse manure
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    Cyclefree said:

    CYCLEFREE’s GARDENING CORNER

    In response to @MattW’s question re pruning of forsythia.

    1. Get some sharp clean secateurs so the cut is a clean one. You don’t want to be tearing at the twigs or branches.

    2. No problem with pruning now - or you could wait until it’s finished flowering. The advantage of pruning now is that the stems with flowers you cut off can be put in the house to brighten it. The forsythia will still flower next year. It’s a tough old plant.

    3. Lop off all the long extra stems that are sticking out. Then gradually cut down to the height and width you want. Aim to make it a rounded shape - a bit like a rounded arch - so that it looks pleasing to you and so as you pass it there aren’t bits sticking into you or catching. There is no magic to this - just step back every few minutes just to look at it form different angles.

    4. The key to this is to remember that all plants will grow up to the light so if you leave the they will just reach for the sky. If untouched this ends up leaving you with lots of flowers at the top and bare branches at the bottom. So by cutting at the top and cutting the shoots heading skywards you force the plant to send out side shoots which will flower and it will look rounder and squatter and fatter so you get a burst of really bright yellow sunshine just where you want it.

    5. Cut just above a flower or bud - a nice neat cut and sloping downwards. This minimises the possibility of any infection. Cut right down to the base any stems which look empty or straggly.

    Plants are fine with pruning. It generally makes them stronger. Forsythia is as tough as old boots.

    I approve this immediate response to Mr Herdson’s predictions of doom.

    Very good article, though, David.
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    But this is important.

    Any idea the EU would block any part of the chancellor's proposals is outrageous and it does need confirmation that it will not interfere in UK policy re covid 19.

    Surely all the EU supporters on here can see how toxic for the EU this could become
    Here’s confirmation of Denmark’s exemption, granted within 24 hours:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_454

    The issue can then be resolved, as it should be, by the EU immediately granting an exemption

    That then resolves the matter

    Let us hope that is what happens, anything else is unacceptable
    They can’t grant one if it hasn’t been asked for people have better things to do at the moment than react to a stupid journalists tweet we don’t even know if it’s an issue
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226
    Charles said:

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/10-days-that-changed-britains-coronavirus-approach?ref=hpsplash

    Very disturbing article.

    Cabinet member playing politics. Johnson got it wrong. Cummings is too close to Vallance and just ignoring other scientists. Rishi was too little too late.

    Whoever the fuck that Cabinet Minister is they should be sacked

    Yes - a disturbing read.

    If true it lessens my confidence in the government.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    But this is important.

    Any idea the EU would block any part of the chancellor's proposals is outrageous and it does need confirmation that it will not interfere in UK policy re covid 19.

    Surely all the EU supporters on here can see how toxic for the EU this could become
    Here’s confirmation of Denmark’s exemption, granted within 24 hours:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_454

    The issue can then be resolved, as it should be, by the EU immediately granting an exemption

    That then resolves the matter

    Let us hope that is what happens, anything else is unacceptable
    G, it is absolute bell end rubbish, how can you be taken in so easily by absolute horse manure
    If it's complete rubbish, why did the Danes have to ask nicely for an exemption?
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    You are not getting away with such a non answer

    A denial has to be produced.

    With the greatest respect there is no reason at all why we should believe you

    Thinking cap please.

    If the EU blocks any part of Sunak's package I will self immolate for the rest of 2020.
    And I find it hard to believe they would be so stupid but the chancellor did break state aid rules yesterday and in the circumstances EU approval should be similar to the Danes, unconditional and within 24 hours

    It is an important issue and for EU supporters one that is essential to be rejected, as I cannot even start to imagine how terminal it would be for the EU if it was true

    And no need to attack those of us who are seeking clarification - it is in the EU interests to do so
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Ali Milani, the Labour parliamentary candidate who ran against Boris Johnson in the 2019 general election, says his father has passed away after being diagnosed with coronavirus.

    In a tweet, Milani said: “In the early hours of this morning, my father tragically passed away after having contracted COVID-19.

    “Please keep him in your prayers. This virus is taking millions all across the world. Please ISOLATE and listen to medical advice!”

    In a separate tweet, he shared a link for a fundraising effort for Islamic Relief, which his friends had set up in his Dad’s memory.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    I think it's true, but irrelevant

    Essentially some bureaucrat upped the limits on state aid to Eur 800K

    But there is the exemption process to approve anything outside the rules (it took Denmark 24 hours). Now I don't see why you should need to get approval, but hey, we're leaving.

    But the journo is shit stirring
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Charles said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Is a National Government really a possibility - and would it be a good thing?

    I am sure we all want the likes Richard Burgon and Dawn Butler having influence over the government strategy....
    Sir Kier Starmer and Lisa Nandy would be an asset to a national unity government imo.
    Even BJ hero Churchil had a better government with prominent Labour cabinet members.
    True, but you'd also need to find RLB a role.
    Toilet attendant?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631

    Thanks to Davoid for adding to the general merriment :). But seriously, we do need to be thinking about these things.

    Isn't another possibility that Chinese production of most things (including tinned food) recovers (IF they have overcome the virus) and people short of domestic goods to buy swirch to buying Chinese exports on a scale not yet seen? As a result, the renminbi shoots up, the Chinese population accelerates to first world standards, and the rest of the world gets poorer - but not necessarily dramatically so.

    This "Chinese economy to the rescue" scenario may sound unliukely, but it's actually pretty much what's happened with consumer goods already - they would be far more expensive except that we've all switched to buying cheaper Asian-made exports.

    People worried about chlorinated chicken are going to buy food from a country that incredibly low food hygiene standards, regularly has large scale food scandals due to counterfeit and tampering, such as the contaminated milk powder and where the lack of even the most minimal animal welfare standards more than likely was the source for this outbreak in the first place.

    Well its a theory.

    Its one thing to think well I will buy this cheaper desk fan, what's the worst that could happen, it doesn't work as well as the 100x as expensive Dyson, but food....
    There is, of course, also the minor point that China is not self-sufficient in food...
  • Options
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    But this is important.

    Any idea the EU would block any part of the chancellor's proposals is outrageous and it does need confirmation that it will not interfere in UK policy re covid 19.

    Surely all the EU supporters on here can see how toxic for the EU this could become
    Here’s confirmation of Denmark’s exemption, granted within 24 hours:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_454

    The issue can then be resolved, as it should be, by the EU immediately granting an exemption

    That then resolves the matter

    Let us hope that is what happens, anything else is unacceptable
    G, it is absolute bell end rubbish, how can you be taken in so easily by absolute horse manure
    It is not though Malc.

    It is in breach of EU state aid rules and as of now nobody has been able to prove the report as false. Saying it is false is not any better than saying it is true

    I have no idea how true or false it is but it is very important to receive the ok
  • Options
    fox327fox327 Posts: 366
    Johnson has taken advice from scientific experts but has he taken advice from experts in economics? This is starting to matter greatly. Johnson should invite people with economic expertise to the next COBRA meeting such as the Governor of the Bank of England and the Treasury Chief Economist, and consider their advice.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    The story doesn't make sense in its own terms because it says that "selective tax advantages" will be allowed.
    Selective tax advantages up to Eur 800K per company.

    But Rishi's proposal is > Eur 800K for the biggest companies. (It is defined as selective because it only applies to some sectors)

    So it is therefore outwith the rules, unless you limit the benefit to the big hotels and airlines.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    fox327 said:

    Johnson has taken advice from scientific experts but has he taken advice from experts in economics? This is starting to matter greatly. Johnson should invite people with economic expertise to the next COBRA meeting such as the Governor of the Bank of England and the Treasury Chief Economist, and consider their advice.

    From a purely economic standpoint the advice might not be pretty.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,931

    Thanks to Davoid for adding to the general merriment :). But seriously, we do need to be thinking about these things.

    Isn't another possibility that Chinese production of most things (including tinned food) recovers (IF they have overcome the virus) and people short of domestic goods to buy swirch to buying Chinese exports on a scale not yet seen? As a result, the renminbi shoots up, the Chinese population accelerates to first world standards, and the rest of the world gets poorer - but not necessarily dramatically so.

    This "Chinese economy to the rescue" scenario may sound unliukely, but it's actually pretty much what's happened with consumer goods already - they would be far more expensive except that we've all switched to buying cheaper Asian-made exports.

    People worried about chlorinated chicken are going to buy food from a country that incredibly low food hygiene standards, regularly has large scale food scandals due to counterfeit and tampering, such as the contaminated milk powder and where the lack of even the most minimal animal welfare standards more than likely was the source for this outbreak in the first place.

    Well its a theory.

    Its one thing to think well I will buy this cheaper desk fan, what's the worst that could happen, it doesn't work as well as the 100x as expensive Dyson, but food....
    Brominated Bats
  • Options
    fox327 said:

    Johnson has taken advice from scientific experts but has he taken advice from experts in economics? This is starting to matter greatly. Johnson should invite people with economic expertise to the next COBRA meeting such as the Governor of the Bank of England and the Treasury Chief Economist, and consider their advice.

    Do we know they do not attend
  • Options
    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,389
    Charles said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    The story doesn't make sense in its own terms because it says that "selective tax advantages" will be allowed.
    Selective tax advantages up to Eur 800K per company.

    But Rishi's proposal is > Eur 800K for the biggest companies. (It is defined as selective because it only applies to some sectors)

    So it is therefore outwith the rules, unless you limit the benefit to the big hotels and airlines.
    It would be nice to see a link to this story, as I said before, I have the times hard copy and it isn't there.

  • Options

    kinabalu said:

    You are not getting away with such a non answer

    A denial has to be produced.

    With the greatest respect there is no reason at all why we should believe you

    Thinking cap please.

    If the EU blocks any part of Sunak's package I will self immolate for the rest of 2020.
    And I find it hard to believe they would be so stupid but the chancellor did break state aid rules yesterday and in the circumstances EU approval should be similar to the Danes, unconditional and within 24 hours

    It is an important issue and for EU supporters one that is essential to be rejected, as I cannot even start to imagine how terminal it would be for the EU if it was true

    And no need to attack those of us who are seeking clarification - it is in the EU interests to do so
    Just let it go. The only people this non-story reflects badly on are the ones promoting it. We have more important things to think about, and so does the EU.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    But this is important.

    Any idea the EU would block any part of the chancellor's proposals is outrageous and it does need confirmation that it will not interfere in UK policy re covid 19.

    Surely all the EU supporters on here can see how toxic for the EU this could become
    Laughable. The EU has around a thousand of it's citizens dieing every day now. They aren't going to give a flying fuck about the Corbynomics package Rishi Sunak announced the other day.
    Rishi's proposal isn't Corbynomics - it's targeted, time limited and proportional.

    You know that Corbyn would have nationalised a whole bunch of companies and kept people on in employment.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,995
    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    But this is important.

    Any idea the EU would block any part of the chancellor's proposals is outrageous and it does need confirmation that it will not interfere in UK policy re covid 19.

    Surely all the EU supporters on here can see how toxic for the EU this could become
    Here’s confirmation of Denmark’s exemption, granted within 24 hours:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_454

    The issue can then be resolved, as it should be, by the EU immediately granting an exemption

    That then resolves the matter

    Let us hope that is what happens, anything else is unacceptable
    G, it is absolute bell end rubbish, how can you be taken in so easily by absolute horse manure
    If it's complete rubbish, why did the Danes have to ask nicely for an exemption?
    Any fool knows they had rules about state aid, it is a rubber stamp at worst and the Danes are obviously fastidious in following rules. Making out that it is an outrage is the work of cretins just looking for any excuse, unfortunately the UK is awash with them. You would imagine they had a bit more to concern them.
  • Options
    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,389
    isam said:

    Thanks to Davoid for adding to the general merriment :). But seriously, we do need to be thinking about these things.

    Isn't another possibility that Chinese production of most things (including tinned food) recovers (IF they have overcome the virus) and people short of domestic goods to buy swirch to buying Chinese exports on a scale not yet seen? As a result, the renminbi shoots up, the Chinese population accelerates to first world standards, and the rest of the world gets poorer - but not necessarily dramatically so.

    This "Chinese economy to the rescue" scenario may sound unliukely, but it's actually pretty much what's happened with consumer goods already - they would be far more expensive except that we've all switched to buying cheaper Asian-made exports.

    People worried about chlorinated chicken are going to buy food from a country that incredibly low food hygiene standards, regularly has large scale food scandals due to counterfeit and tampering, such as the contaminated milk powder and where the lack of even the most minimal animal welfare standards more than likely was the source for this outbreak in the first place.

    Well its a theory.

    Its one thing to think well I will buy this cheaper desk fan, what's the worst that could happen, it doesn't work as well as the 100x as expensive Dyson, but food....
    Brominated Bats
    fluorinated Foxes?

    Iodinated Impalas?

  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Responding to Stephen Swinford's tweets isn't a "to do" item in the in tray, it's not even heading to the in tray. It'll never head to the in tray, it won't even make it to the bin. It simply won't be on the radar.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,101
    Given the circumstances we find ourselves in I am going to take a slightly different approach to the review this week. As opposed to selecting a single subject to critique, I thought it would be more helpful to pick out five 5-star (IMO) hidden gems freely accessible online, which can be enjoyed at home.

    I've tried to mix it up a bit, taking in a classic kids TV series, an amazing speech, a great documentary, magnificent opera, and tip top pod.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-51968653

    I'm sure some PBers can themselves suggest other things of interest.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Germany has just announced its own huge package. That plus the ECB’s action earlier in the week is a massive sea change. Truly historic times.

    Pooled debt is getting some support in Germany.

    https://twitter.com/jsuedekum/status/1241089308993433602
    I'm surprised it's taken so long but would be a great move.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,995

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    But this is important.

    Any idea the EU would block any part of the chancellor's proposals is outrageous and it does need confirmation that it will not interfere in UK policy re covid 19.

    Surely all the EU supporters on here can see how toxic for the EU this could become
    Here’s confirmation of Denmark’s exemption, granted within 24 hours:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_454

    The issue can then be resolved, as it should be, by the EU immediately granting an exemption

    That then resolves the matter

    Let us hope that is what happens, anything else is unacceptable
    G, it is absolute bell end rubbish, how can you be taken in so easily by absolute horse manure
    It is not though Malc.

    It is in breach of EU state aid rules and as of now nobody has been able to prove the report as false. Saying it is false is not any better than saying it is true

    I have no idea how true or false it is but it is very important to receive the ok
    I doubt they will be sending the police over G. I thought we were supposedly out and a sovereign nation , with our blue passports, and able to do as we wished. What about all that crap about Brexit is done etc, you Tories cannot have it all ways.
  • Options

    kinabalu said:

    You are not getting away with such a non answer

    A denial has to be produced.

    With the greatest respect there is no reason at all why we should believe you

    Thinking cap please.

    If the EU blocks any part of Sunak's package I will self immolate for the rest of 2020.
    And I find it hard to believe they would be so stupid but the chancellor did break state aid rules yesterday and in the circumstances EU approval should be similar to the Danes, unconditional and within 24 hours

    It is an important issue and for EU supporters one that is essential to be rejected, as I cannot even start to imagine how terminal it would be for the EU if it was true

    And no need to attack those of us who are seeking clarification - it is in the EU interests to do so
    Just let it go. The only people this non-story reflects badly on are the ones promoting it. We have more important things to think about, and so does the EU.
    Why let it go.

    It is clear state aid rules are breached and the EU permission is required

    You cannot wish away an inconvenient story

    Lets just have the clarity
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,259
    NYT

    Coronavirus in N.Y.: ‘Deluge’ of Cases Begins Hitting Hospitals
    There are already critical shortages: A Bronx hospital is running out of ventilators. In Brooklyn, doctors are reusing masks.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,726
    edited March 2020
    fox327 said:

    Johnson has taken advice from scientific experts but has he taken advice from experts in economics? This is starting to matter greatly. Johnson should invite people with economic expertise to the next COBRA meeting such as the Governor of the Bank of England and the Treasury Chief Economist, and consider their advice.

    Indeed. Follows on from what Herdson says: "Attempting to prevent the deaths of millions across the globe from Covid-19 is an absolutely understandable aim. Any humane society would try to do so. Yet we must also understand what we place in the balance as we try to do so."

    Johnson should have been flanked by three advisers: chief scientist, chief economist and chief philosopher, in order to give regard to health, economics and freedom.
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Charles said:
    No idea why you should attack a Cabinet Minister for getting it right and helping to propel the Govt to act.

    I think we all know by now that the Govt acted way too slowly and believed one subset of scientists instead of having the humility to listen to others including from overseas. The net result of that will probably be a massive surge in cases and deaths in the short term. But at least they are gradually improving.

    I also don't know why anyone is very surprised. Johnson won a great victory against the most unelectable leader in Labour's history - a man so toxic that even his own MPs deserted him.

  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    alterego said:

    I don't know if this has been referenced before but it addresses an issue which has always exercised me; how may ADDITIONAL deaths are caused by Covid 19? The high risk groups will have a high attrition rate without Covid 19 and the quoted data for Covid 19 deaths is of people who have died with the virus present (not causal). Flu deaths are counted as additional to deaths from other causes. I would have thought that counting Covid 19 deaths in a similar fashion would reduce percentages in 70+ set and increase them in all other sets.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51979654

    I heard Germany’s low fatality rate was due to them not deciding everyone who died with Coronavirus in them, died of Coronavirus

    Could be that Coronavirus is to underlying illnesss what pneumonia is to AIDS
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,995
    Charles said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    I think it's true, but irrelevant

    Essentially some bureaucrat upped the limits on state aid to Eur 800K

    But there is the exemption process to approve anything outside the rules (it took Denmark 24 hours). Now I don't see why you should need to get approval, but hey, we're leaving.

    But the journo is shit stirring
    Thought we had left and Brexit was done, were the thousands of posts on here praising nay revering Boris for getting Brexit done a pack of lies.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,995
    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    But this is important.

    Any idea the EU would block any part of the chancellor's proposals is outrageous and it does need confirmation that it will not interfere in UK policy re covid 19.

    Surely all the EU supporters on here can see how toxic for the EU this could become
    Here’s confirmation of Denmark’s exemption, granted within 24 hours:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_454

    The issue can then be resolved, as it should be, by the EU immediately granting an exemption

    That then resolves the matter

    Let us hope that is what happens, anything else is unacceptable
    G, it is absolute bell end rubbish, how can you be taken in so easily by absolute horse manure
    If it's complete rubbish, why did the Danes have to ask nicely for an exemption?
    Jingoistic outrage , how very Tory. Worst case it requires a note and an instant exemption. However I will say again , where is the fabled BREXIT IS DONE that has been constantly trumpeted on here.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    fox327 said:

    Johnson has taken advice from scientific experts but has he taken advice from experts in economics? This is starting to matter greatly. Johnson should invite people with economic expertise to the next COBRA meeting such as the Governor of the Bank of England and the Treasury Chief Economist, and consider their advice.

    The bank has already acted in cutting rates and QE - the first part of the process. They are involved and have been from the start.
  • Options
    FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,899
    edited March 2020
    isam said:

    alterego said:

    I don't know if this has been referenced before but it addresses an issue which has always exercised me; how may ADDITIONAL deaths are caused by Covid 19? The high risk groups will have a high attrition rate without Covid 19 and the quoted data for Covid 19 deaths is of people who have died with the virus present (not causal). Flu deaths are counted as additional to deaths from other causes. I would have thought that counting Covid 19 deaths in a similar fashion would reduce percentages in 70+ set and increase them in all other sets.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51979654

    I heard Germany’s low fatality rate was due to them not deciding everyone who died with Coronavirus in them, died of Coronavirus

    Could be that Coronavirus is to underlying illnesss what pneumonia is to AIDS
    This claim keeps circling round and round, but I've never seen anyone provide any evidence to support it. Where did you hear this?

    The more likely explanation is some combination of the relative youth of those initially infected, more widespread testing and the excellent German medical system.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226

    And no need to attack those of us who are seeking clarification - it is in the EU interests to do so

    Just get a little frustrated sometimes at this sort of nonsense.

    But the river of debate flows and we sail on.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,726
    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    CYCLEFREE’s GARDENING CORNER

    In response to @MattW’s question re pruning of forsythia.

    1. Get some sharp clean secateurs so the cut is a clean one. You don’t want to be tearing at the twigs or branches.

    2. No problem with pruning now - or you could wait until it’s finished flowering. The advantage of pruning now is that the stems with flowers you cut off can be put in the house to brighten it. The forsythia will still flower next year. It’s a tough old plant.

    3. Lop off all the long extra stems that are sticking out. Then gradually cut down to the height and width you want. Aim to make it a rounded shape - a bit like a rounded arch - so that it looks pleasing to you and so as you pass it there aren’t bits sticking into you or catching. There is no magic to this - just step back every few minutes just to look at it form different angles.

    4. The key to this is to remember that all plants will grow up to the light so if you leave the they will just reach for the sky. If untouched this ends up leaving you with lots of flowers at the top and bare branches at the bottom. So by cutting at the top and cutting the shoots heading skywards you force the plant to send out side shoots which will flower and it will look rounder and squatter and fatter so you get a burst of really bright yellow sunshine just where you want it.

    5. Cut just above a flower or bud - a nice neat cut and sloping downwards. This minimises the possibility of any infection. Cut right down to the base any stems which look empty or straggly.

    Plants are fine with pruning. It generally makes them stronger. Forsythia is as tough as old boots.

    Next week: wisteria?
    Wisteria is easy... In August cut the stems back to five buds each, leaving any you intend to form new branches. Train as required. In January trim the same stems back to three buds. Otherwise leave well alone.
    "7 and 2" is the rule for wisteria.

    In the 7th month (July) cut stems down to the 7th bud. Then in the 2nd month (Feb) cut stems down to the 2nd bud.
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    I haven't seen anyone mention this yet but, erm, millenials being asked to behave in order to save boomers and gammons might stick in the throat somewhat.

    They might reasonably point out that the oldies screwed this country over with Brexit.

    So the fact that most of them are so gracious is testament to what a fabulous generation they are. I mean it. The shits are the likes of Peter Hitchens and Piers Morgan.

  • Options
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    Are the EU really banning part of the Chancellors rescue package?

    Interesting move.

    What is this?
    It seems to be a nonsense story briefed to the Times in order to stir up some anti-EU feeling.
    Entirely predictable I'm afraid. The Brexit evangelists are nothing if not exhibitionists. They'll feel that the virus crisis has stolen their limelight and are desperate to be centre of attention again.
    Then provide a link to denial of the story

    If true it a devastating own goal and will see any support for the EU collapse
    Dear oh dear.
    Please provide the denial then the issue is dealt with
    I'll let you in on a little secret, Big_G.... I don't think there is one. That's why he's just mouthing off about Brexiteers instead. :p
    And this is the problem with the EU

    It is so easy to believe the story and in the absence of a denial it must be assumed this is their position, and devastating for their remaining support in the UK
    If the EU had to deny every dubious claim about them promulgated by the British media they'd need a press department the size of the Chinese army.
    But this is important.

    Any idea the EU would block any part of the chancellor's proposals is outrageous and it does need confirmation that it will not interfere in UK policy re covid 19.

    Surely all the EU supporters on here can see how toxic for the EU this could become
    Here’s confirmation of Denmark’s exemption, granted within 24 hours:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_454

    The issue can then be resolved, as it should be, by the EU immediately granting an exemption

    That then resolves the matter

    Let us hope that is what happens, anything else is unacceptable
    G, it is absolute bell end rubbish, how can you be taken in so easily by absolute horse manure
    If it's complete rubbish, why did the Danes have to ask nicely for an exemption?
    Jingoistic outrage , how very Tory. Worst case it requires a note and an instant exemption. However I will say again , where is the fabled BREXIT IS DONE that has been constantly trumpeted on here.
    I have made my point on this issue and intend leaving it there

    However, you know we are still in transistion until the end of the year and accordingly under the EU state aid rules which the chancellor broke yesterday
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    CYCLEFREE’s GARDENING CORNER

    In response to @MattW’s question re pruning of forsythia.

    1. Get some sharp clean secateurs so the cut is a clean one. You don’t want to be tearing at the twigs or branches.

    2. No problem with pruning now - or you could wait until it’s finished flowering. The advantage of pruning now is that the stems with flowers you cut off can be put in the house to brighten it. The forsythia will still flower next year. It’s a tough old plant.

    3. Lop off all the long extra stems that are sticking out. Then gradually cut down to the height and width you want. Aim to make it a rounded shape - a bit like a rounded arch - so that it looks pleasing to you and so as you pass it there aren’t bits sticking into you or catching. There is no magic to this - just step back every few minutes just to look at it form different angles.

    4. The key to this is to remember that all plants will grow up to the light so if you leave the they will just reach for the sky. If untouched this ends up leaving you with lots of flowers at the top and bare branches at the bottom. So by cutting at the top and cutting the shoots heading skywards you force the plant to send out side shoots which will flower and it will look rounder and squatter and fatter so you get a burst of really bright yellow sunshine just where you want it.

    5. Cut just above a flower or bud - a nice neat cut and sloping downwards. This minimises the possibility of any infection. Cut right down to the base any stems which look empty or straggly.

    Plants are fine with pruning. It generally makes them stronger. Forsythia is as tough as old boots.

    How is your daughter coping?
    Yesterday was, understandably, quite an emotional day for her. For her team. For us all. It’s a family business now.

    The pub/restaurant is right in the centre of the village - everyone goes there to meet, chat, share gossip,information, look out for each other. A lot of business gets done there - it’s not just a drinking and eating venue. So it will be missed and my daughter will find the social isolation by contrast with her normal every day busyness very hard - harder than for me, I suspect.

    She has a good business brain though and a toughness which will help. I am so proud of her.

    She has already started a takeaway / delivery service - including for some essential goods - targeted on the isolated so as a social service as much as anything. She has volunteers to help. She will look to see how the latest proposals will help and she will need to have a conversation with her landlord about the rent.

    The biggest difficulty is not knowing the timescale. If this goes on for a year, the decision is a very different one to a 3-month shutdown. And no-one knows.

    What breaks my heart is that a few weeks ago she was talking excitedly about various plans she had to expand business / had prepared lots of varied menus - they were changed every week - and had plans to go into the holiday rental / B&B market. All on hold and very possibly ended now. All that hope crushed - or so it feels like. So I am going to do whatever I can to support her.

    I have also urged my 2 sons, who were job-hunting to look at those supermarket jobs. Any work is better than none. This is no time for snobbery about graduate jobs, frankly.

    Best wishes to @Charles for his Dad, @MaxPB and @GideonWise.
    Our garden centre has a modest farm shop attached to it. It has started a delivery service. For which it is getting huge kudos with the Crumblies in the surrounding countryside.

    Tell your daughter to do some fliers - and get them out there. Once people know it is an option, it will get taken up. And it will hold her in extremely good stead once something like normal returns.

    People WILL remember.
    She has sent the fliers out already - on Tuesday- and on social media. Positive response so far. Some of her stock is being bought by a firm which will use it for its workers. The local newspaper is also highlighting independent venues - basically giving them free advertising so have urged her to take that up. It’s a close community here so that will I hope help.

    Today, for instance, I have been offered freshly baked scones by a neighbour. They can be my husband’s birthday tea - we were due to celebrate at her restaurant.....

    Instead he’s repairing the beach hut looking out onto the Irish Sea - for when/if things get really bad.
    You also doing a line in Isolation Huts now?
    It has a kettle, an old sofa and magnificent views. What’s not to love?
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,726
    I`ve been off line for a bit. Did we find out who JM1 is?
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,148

    I haven't seen anyone mention this yet but, erm, millenials being asked to behave in order to save boomers and gammons might stick in the throat somewhat.

    They might reasonably point out that the oldies screwed this country over with Brexit.

    So the fact that most of them are so gracious is testament to what a fabulous generation they are. I mean it. The shits are the likes of Peter Hitchens and Piers Morgan.

    Yeah - that had crossed my mind.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    I came across a celebrity who has not been tested (!)

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/mar/21/lewis-hamilton-self-isolating-but-showing-no-coronavirus-symptoms
    I did speak to my doctor and double checked if I needed to take a test but the truth is, there is a limited amount of tests available and there are people who need it more than I do, especially when I wasn’t showing any symptoms at all. So what I’ve done is keep myself isolated this past week...
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    I'd honestly love for the EU to start proceedings against the government for breaching state aid rules. I very much doubt they will though.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/10-days-that-changed-britains-coronavirus-approach?ref=hpsplash

    Very disturbing article.

    Cabinet member playing politics. Johnson got it wrong. Cummings is too close to Vallance and just ignoring other scientists. Rishi was too little too late.

    Whoever the fuck that Cabinet Minister is they should be sacked

    Yes - a disturbing read.

    If true it lessens my confidence in the government.
    I'm not convinced - it basically said that there was a hell of an argument in SAGE and it took a while for the government to shift its position because it waited for SAGE to age. That's actually reasonable.

    Criticism that the government was looking to scientists ("outsourcing leadership") rather than making a "political decision on which group of scientists to back". Good. Evidence led policy.

    "Data from Italy changed all that"... when the facts changed they changed their position. Good.

    Concern that the Chief Scientific Advisor is a "close ally" of Cummings. I mean, WTF. Just listen to the guy, right.

    "Greatly reassured by new committees" - you mean you've personally got involved...

    "personal style of some aides made it harder". just shut the fuck up about Cummings. It's petty bullshit and just doesn't matter right now

    "Expectation that Sunak will need to go further and announce help for self-employed". Yes. Evolving situation. Sometimes you just have to move fast with what you can rather than get everything perfect.

    "criticism of Johnson's press conference cut through message being optimism that coronavirus can be defeated". That's a style point, but I think optimism is important.

    [NB "quotes" are summarising the article's points not direct quotes]

    The government has been moving quickly in a rapidly evolving situation. They are rushing policies out as quickly as they can and triaging. They are not getting everything right, but they are doing as well as can be hoped for in the situation.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    Stocky said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    CYCLEFREE’s GARDENING CORNER

    In response to @MattW’s question re pruning of forsythia.

    1. Get some sharp clean secateurs so the cut is a clean one. You don’t want to be tearing at the twigs or branches.

    2. No problem with pruning now - or you could wait until it’s finished flowering. The advantage of pruning now is that the stems with flowers you cut off can be put in the house to brighten it. The forsythia will still flower next year. It’s a tough old plant.

    3. Lop off all the long extra stems that are sticking out. Then gradually cut down to the height and width you want. Aim to make it a rounded shape - a bit like a rounded arch - so that it looks pleasing to you and so as you pass it there aren’t bits sticking into you or catching. There is no magic to this - just step back every few minutes just to look at it form different angles.

    4. The key to this is to remember that all plants will grow up to the light so if you leave the they will just reach for the sky. If untouched this ends up leaving you with lots of flowers at the top and bare branches at the bottom. So by cutting at the top and cutting the shoots heading skywards you force the plant to send out side shoots which will flower and it will look rounder and squatter and fatter so you get a burst of really bright yellow sunshine just where you want it.

    5. Cut just above a flower or bud - a nice neat cut and sloping downwards. This minimises the possibility of any infection. Cut right down to the base any stems which look empty or straggly.

    Plants are fine with pruning. It generally makes them stronger. Forsythia is as tough as old boots.

    Next week: wisteria?
    Wisteria is easy... In August cut the stems back to five buds each, leaving any you intend to form new branches. Train as required. In January trim the same stems back to three buds. Otherwise leave well alone.
    "7 and 2" is the rule for wisteria.

    In the 7th month (July) cut stems down to the 7th bud. Then in the 2nd month (Feb) cut stems down to the 2nd bud.
    Three buds is better, more flowers, which a mature bush ought to be able to support.
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited March 2020

    NYT

    Coronavirus in N.Y.: ‘Deluge’ of Cases Begins Hitting Hospitals
    There are already critical shortages: A Bronx hospital is running out of ventilators. In Brooklyn, doctors are reusing masks.

    There is a massive effort across Spain to produce masks, from volunteer Civil Protection members through to asking anyone with a sowing machine volunteer, materials to be provided, anything similar happening in the uk?
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,726
    Question: my hairdresser closed yesterday - not because the government told them to, but voluntarily. Am I correct that they won`t be able to access the 80% of salary deal for the employees because they closed voluntarily?
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    I haven't seen anyone mention this yet but, erm, millenials being asked to behave in order to save boomers and gammons might stick in the throat somewhat.

    They might reasonably point out that the oldies screwed this country over with Brexit.

    So the fact that most of them are so gracious is testament to what a fabulous generation they are. I mean it. The shits are the likes of Peter Hitchens and Piers Morgan.

    If inconveniencing yourself to save older generations from a miserable death counts as being 'gracious', then the voting age needs to be radically increased.

    I write as someone who is - technically - a millennial.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    fox327 said:

    Johnson has taken advice from scientific experts but has he taken advice from experts in economics? This is starting to matter greatly. Johnson should invite people with economic expertise to the next COBRA meeting such as the Governor of the Bank of England and the Treasury Chief Economist, and consider their advice.

    Well, given that the Bank of England Governor announced the QE policy and that the Chancellor runs the Treasury I very much suspect there was involvement.

    I don't understand what this obsession is with people attending a specific committee meeting.

    The PM will be getting the briefing that he needs to make decisions. IIRC the Treasury has a standing representative at COBRA.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289

    Given the circumstances we find ourselves in I am going to take a slightly different approach to the review this week. As opposed to selecting a single subject to critique, I thought it would be more helpful to pick out five 5-star (IMO) hidden gems freely accessible online, which can be enjoyed at home.

    I've tried to mix it up a bit, taking in a classic kids TV series, an amazing speech, a great documentary, magnificent opera, and tip top pod.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-51968653

    I'm sure some PBers can themselves suggest other things of interest.

    I am quite enjoying Monk on Amazon Prime at the moment. Think autistic Colombo with OCD, in San Fran. Each episode is stand alone and contains a crime mystery, so it’s an engaging way to spend chunks of 45 minutes.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Stocky said:

    I`ve been off line for a bit. Did we find out who JM1 is?

    And when was the last time we heard from our resident doomsday merchant. I presume he hasn't got an internet access in his nuclear bomb shelter.
  • Options

    Charles said:
    No idea why you should attack a Cabinet Minister for getting it right and helping to propel the Govt to act.

    I think we all know by now that the Govt acted way too slowly and believed one subset of scientists instead of having the humility to listen to others including from overseas. The net result of that will probably be a massive surge in cases and deaths in the short term. But at least they are gradually improving.

    I also don't know why anyone is very surprised. Johnson won a great victory against the most unelectable leader in Labour's history - a man so toxic that even his own MPs deserted him.

    As I've mentioned before, it's not that Boris believed one subset of scientists, it's that he made the wrong choice of the scientifically-based options placed before him. He gambled on the high-risk, low-cost option, and lost. He screwed up the single most important decision, and then he compounded his mistake by dithering afterwards. Other than Trump, the Ayatollahs and possibly the Dutch prime minister Rutte, it's hard to think of a leader who has dealt more ineptly with the pandemic.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,726
    IanB2 said:

    Stocky said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    CYCLEFREE’s GARDENING CORNER

    In response to @MattW’s question re pruning of forsythia.

    1. Get some sharp clean secateurs so the cut is a clean one. You don’t want to be tearing at the twigs or branches.

    2. No problem with pruning now - or you could wait until it’s finished flowering. The advantage of pruning now is that the stems with flowers you cut off can be put in the house to brighten it. The forsythia will still flower next year. It’s a tough old plant.

    3. Lop off all the long extra stems that are sticking out. Then gradually cut down to the height and width you want. Aim to make it a rounded shape - a bit like a rounded arch - so that it looks pleasing to you and so as you pass it there aren’t bits sticking into you or catching. There is no magic to this - just step back every few minutes just to look at it form different angles.

    4. The key to this is to remember that all plants will grow up to the light so if you leave the they will just reach for the sky. If untouched this ends up leaving you with lots of flowers at the top and bare branches at the bottom. So by cutting at the top and cutting the shoots heading skywards you force the plant to send out side shoots which will flower and it will look rounder and squatter and fatter so you get a burst of really bright yellow sunshine just where you want it.

    5. Cut just above a flower or bud - a nice neat cut and sloping downwards. This minimises the possibility of any infection. Cut right down to the base any stems which look empty or straggly.

    Plants are fine with pruning. It generally makes them stronger. Forsythia is as tough as old boots.

    Next week: wisteria?
    Wisteria is easy... In August cut the stems back to five buds each, leaving any you intend to form new branches. Train as required. In January trim the same stems back to three buds. Otherwise leave well alone.
    "7 and 2" is the rule for wisteria.

    In the 7th month (July) cut stems down to the 7th bud. Then in the 2nd month (Feb) cut stems down to the 2nd bud.
    Three buds is better, more flowers, which a mature bush ought to be able to support.
    I think we should get into a heated nasty debate about this in PB style. Maybe criticise HYUFD for no discernible reason?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,259
    To avert socialism, we must briefly become socialists. We must spend whatever it takes to save free market liberalism.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/03/20/boris-must-become-socialist-face-nationalising-entire-economy/
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,148

    NYT

    Coronavirus in N.Y.: ‘Deluge’ of Cases Begins Hitting Hospitals
    There are already critical shortages: A Bronx hospital is running out of ventilators. In Brooklyn, doctors are reusing masks.

    The key metric, and one I have not seen reported anywhere, is ICU capacity by location. It is that we are trying to maintain.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,359

    Charles said:
    No idea why you should attack a Cabinet Minister for getting it right and helping to propel the Govt to act.

    I think we all know by now that the Govt acted way too slowly and believed one subset of scientists instead of having the humility to listen to others including from overseas. The net result of that will probably be a massive surge in cases and deaths in the short term. But at least they are gradually improving.

    I also don't know why anyone is very surprised. Johnson won a great victory against the most unelectable leader in Labour's history - a man so toxic that even his own MPs deserted him.

    As I've mentioned before, it's not that Boris believed one subset of scientists, it's that he made the wrong choice of the scientifically-based options placed before him. He gambled on the high-risk, low-cost option, and lost. He screwed up the single most important decision, and then he compounded his mistake by dithering afterwards. Other than Trump, the Ayatollahs and possibly the Dutch prime minister Rutte, it's hard to think of a leader who has dealt more ineptly with the pandemic.
    Corbyn would have been much worse.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Had to renew my passport.
    Went into main post office on Monday afternoon.
    They took the digital photo, e mail address and mobile number.
    It was tracked all the way and I was informed at each stage.
    TNT delivered it today.
    Good service, I would recommend it.

    Also for those who care , it was a dark blue Brirish one.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    Given the circumstances we find ourselves in I am going to take a slightly different approach to the review this week. As opposed to selecting a single subject to critique, I thought it would be more helpful to pick out five 5-star (IMO) hidden gems freely accessible online, which can be enjoyed at home.

    I've tried to mix it up a bit, taking in a classic kids TV series, an amazing speech, a great documentary, magnificent opera, and tip top pod.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-51968653

    I'm sure some PBers can themselves suggest other things of interest.

    A 1960s low budget French hand puppet show...yeah ok Will, I think I will give it a miss thanks. And I can't imagine the generation of tik tok will be entertained by it.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    I haven't seen anyone mention this yet but, erm, millenials being asked to behave in order to save boomers and gammons might stick in the throat somewhat.

    They might reasonably point out that the oldies screwed this country over with Brexit.

    So the fact that most of them are so gracious is testament to what a fabulous generation they are. I mean it. The shits are the likes of Peter Hitchens and Piers Morgan.

    What an idiot you are. Milleniums screwed themselves over Brexit by not bothering to vote. Stop trying to sow discord with your miserable dreary efforts to politicise everything.
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Nigelb said:

    I came across a celebrity who has not been tested (!)

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/mar/21/lewis-hamilton-self-isolating-but-showing-no-coronavirus-symptoms
    I did speak to my doctor and double checked if I needed to take a test but the truth is, there is a limited amount of tests available and there are people who need it more than I do, especially when I wasn’t showing any symptoms at all. So what I’ve done is keep myself isolated this past week...

    Has anybody rich or famous died from the virus yet? I did see an Italian architect had died a few days ago but I didn’t recognize the name.
This discussion has been closed.