My parents are 89 and 90 - they have been self isolating to avoid infection since last Friday. Just had an email from my Dad saying that, if they are infected and it becomes serious enough to require hospitalisation, they have decided to refuse and die at home on the basis that younger people will need the facilities and it would be better for society. Bloody hell. BTW they still think younger generations should be ashamed of themselves for showing lack of backbone.
My parents are 89 and 90 - they have been self isolating to avoid infection since last Friday. Just had an email from my Dad saying that, if they are infected and it becomes serious enough to require hospitalisation, they have decided to refuse and die at home on the basis that younger people will need the facilities and it would be better for society. Bloody hell. BTW they still think younger generations should be ashamed of themselves for showing lack of backbone.
I don't want to be cruel...but they will not be given that choice.....
I don't quite see your point of saying the "younger generations should be ashamed of themselves"...it presents your parents in a very poor light to be honest
My parents are 89 and 90 - they have been self isolating to avoid infection since last Friday. Just had an email from my Dad saying that, if they are infected and it becomes serious enough to require hospitalisation, they have decided to refuse and die at home on the basis that younger people will need the facilities and it would be better for society. Bloody hell. BTW they still think younger generations should be ashamed of themselves for showing lack of backbone.
I don't want to be cruel...but they will not be given that choice.....
I don't quite see your point of saying the "younger generations should be ashamed of themselves"...it presents your parents in a very poor light to be honest
Do get out of here - that is fecking selfless of them - giving a chance to younger people with more years to live
Remember too, this is modelling using current information. There might be more asymptomatic cases out there, for example, in which case the numbers improve.... R0 could be larger... in which case the numbers are worse (though this is complicated, as much transmission seems to be very local, so R0 might be ameliorable to a greater extent than the model predicts)....
Or if Actemra were to prove really effective in very sick patients...
This is why what the CMO said about a test for people who have had the virus and were asymptomatic is so important, we need the mother of all ice bergs or we are facing a crisis of huge proportions.
Well there are clearly huge decisions to come, and better numbers make for much better decisions. We need to know asap about the size of the iceberg - huge or minute - and at the moment we simply don’t.
I have a colonoscopy booked in for Friday. Does anyone know if this actually likely to go ahead?
Nothing is overwhelmed quite yet. Have you heard from them?
I got an automated reminder the other day, but other than that, no.
I would suggest calling, but they might be a bit busy! I guess proceed under the assumption it is going ahead. I doubt you'll be using facilities needed for corona patients, except perhaps in the ward?
This is probably a bigger economic impact than WWIII would produce - I mean that'd be over relatively quickly, and people wouldn't be off work if they were err.. alive.
Why is it terrifying??? It's what happens in science - you adjust the model when you get new data. We are going to have to adopt the lockdown model as we can't manage this epidemic in as controlled a way as we would have liked. After this we will then adapt how we handle the next wave, which will be much less costly (due to better therapy / diagnostics / equipment). The use of 'terrifying' and 'jaw dropping' is sensationalist and un-scientific drivel.
Indeed, some of us have been saying this for weeks...
Some of us even before the mitigation policy was officially announced. It was pretty obvious the NHS couldn't cope with what was being asked.
So much for the experts. Hopefully this will teach people to engage their brain rather than blindly parrot what they are told.
You're using an expert's model to criticise experts?
I'm not using an expert's model, It didn't take an expert to realise this. I think you'll find some of us were discussing it at the time the mitigation policy was being announced.
My parents are 89 and 90 - they have been self isolating to avoid infection since last Friday. Just had an email from my Dad saying that, if they are infected and it becomes serious enough to require hospitalisation, they have decided to refuse and die at home on the basis that younger people will need the facilities and it would be better for society. Bloody hell. BTW they still think younger generations should be ashamed of themselves for showing lack of backbone.
This is probably a bigger economic impact than WWIII would produce - I mean that'd be over relatively quickly, and people wouldn't be off work if they were err.. alive.
Without the destruction of industry and infrastructure. Everything is still there, just needs people. And it isn't those in work that are going to be taking the brunt of this.
I have a colonoscopy booked in for Friday. Does anyone know if this actually likely to go ahead?
Yes, indeed probably good to get it out of the way. We have mass cancellations of outpatients and routine procedures planned from next Monday, and I expect it is similar elsewhere.
My parents are 89 and 90 - they have been self isolating to avoid infection since last Friday. Just had an email from my Dad saying that, if they are infected and it becomes serious enough to require hospitalisation, they have decided to refuse and die at home on the basis that younger people will need the facilities and it would be better for society. Bloody hell. BTW they still think younger generations should be ashamed of themselves for showing lack of backbone.
I don't want to be cruel...but they will not be given that choice.....
I don't quite see your point of saying the "younger generations should be ashamed of themselves"...it presents your parents in a very poor light to be honest
Do get out of here - that is fecking selfless of them - giving a chance to younger people with more years to live
They will not be given that chance...ICU beds now are not going to be allocated to people with this kind of prognosis....
Elderly people with acute respiratory problems will probably now get palliative care only...it's horrible because they could be treated if there was capacity....
On Saturday, only about 48 hours ago, bloody sports pundits were speculating endlessly about when the Premier League would restart, when the knock-out stage of the Champions League would be held, will Wimbledon go ahead etc.
Why is it terrifying??? It's what happens in science - you adjust the model when you get new data. We are going to have to adopt the lockdown model as we can't manage this epidemic in as controlled a way as we would have liked. After this we will then adapt how we handle the next wave, which will be much less costly (due to better therapy / diagnostics / equipment). The use of 'terrifying' and 'jaw dropping' is sensationalist and un-scientific drivel.
What is clear today is that things are moving faster than was anticipated. We are not as far behind Italy as we thought. London in particular is moving to the point that breaks need to be applied to the increase in infection if the NHS is going to cope. Because of the lag time between infection and a positive test this really needs to start happening now.
I really don't get how that is not consistent with the original plan or is anything other than an evolution of it. I find the scientists completely credible. Not completely sure about the guy in the middle but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.
Hi David. Read the Imperial report. There are two clear approaches, stomp the fire out or manage it. The plan allowed for both but we were going for manage. We have pivoted towards stomp it out as the fire is uncontrollable once it gets going.
On Saturday, only about 48 hours ago, bloody sports pundits were speculating endlessly about when the Premier League would restart, when the knock-out stage of the Champions League would be held, will Wimbledon go ahead etc.
The denials of reality are quite something to behold on multiple levels here (The pundits)
The narrative some are trying to push is clear that the government clearly were trying to hide that they thought 250,000 would die, when in fact the report clearly says only in the past few days did new data make it clear that hospitalisation would be twice a previous estimate (and why Witty talked about 100,000 dead).
I suppose that is less than the crazy numbers the Guardian had formed by exploration from a single word on a single slide yesterday.
The Corbyn Left seem to be screaming tonight for more draconian shut downs and lockdowns.
Boris has not done enough etc etc etc. 700K will die.
I bet a large sum that within weeks (days even?) they will be screaming that the measures are too draconian and it is a human rights issue that no one can be allowed to leave their house even for a Labour Party local executive meeting.
On Saturday, only about 48 hours ago, bloody sports pundits were speculating endlessly about when the Premier League would restart, when the knock-out stage of the Champions League would be held, will Wimbledon go ahead etc.
The denials of reality are quite something to behold on multiple levels here (The pundits)
This is probably a bigger economic impact than WWIII would produce - I mean that'd be over relatively quickly, and people wouldn't be off work if they were err.. alive.
You live a few miles from Finningley - it might have been very over very quickly for you
Boris just says ‘you shouldn’t attend social events. Any questions?’
Little different to what Sunak already announced in the budget and more can be added if needed
Don’t be ridiculous. It’s far more. SSP is only paid to the sick not the unemployed and only lasts for 14 days. You cannot live on it for months and months as you seem to think. Sunak’s Budget is inadequate and out of date.
I thought Boris was great today. As for businesses, it is a horrible time for them, but many will adapt to survive. There is (for example) a vast market there for things to be home delivered. Meals (and everything else) on wheels. Home entertainment is going to be another huge growth industry. Even humble publishing may make a comeback - for some reason the local Coop was stripped bare of magazines today.
You are completely mad if you think businesses should be expected to get through this without serious support. Pubs will be utterly screwed. The fact that Netflix will make more money won’t offer any comfort to the Dog & Duck.
Not just pubs. Bars, restaurants, music venues, theatres, cafes. Anywhere People congregate. They will go under without government help. And remember the spring to autumn period is when they make the money to tide them over the winter months. Reopening in 4 or 6 months time is not an option. If they close now very many of them will be closed for the rest of the year - or for good.
The Corbyn Left seem to be screaming tonight for more draconian shut downs and lockdowns.
Boris has not done enough etc etc etc. 700K will die.
I bet a large sum that within weeks (days even?) they will be screaming that the measures are too draconian and it is a human rights issue that no one can be allowed to leave their house even for a Labour Party local executive meeting.
Twats.
Well Blunkett claimed this morning this policy of hiding oldies away was ageist and dehumanizing, cos there are loads of fit and healthy OAPs....
On Saturday, only about 48 hours ago, bloody sports pundits were speculating endlessly about when the Premier League would restart, when the knock-out stage of the Champions League would be held, will Wimbledon go ahead etc.
The denials of reality are quite something to behold on multiple levels here (The pundits)
Other countries are in the same boat. In the US there's almost no doubt it will kill far more people there than the Swine Flu did that Trump keeps bringing up to bash Biden.
Is HMG still sticking to the 'no Brexit Trasition Extension' line by the way?
I don't think so, I think they're currently saying that no decision has been made at the minute and that the health emergency is their number one priority.
The government is clearly 100% focused on the Coronavirus emergency (and I suspect that it's even more severe for most EU countries), so if we implemented a four month extension to end April next year, I don't think I (or most anyone else) would get that concerned about it.
If they tried to use it to chuck a two year extension in, then that would be a different matter.
The Corbyn Left seem to be screaming tonight for more draconian shut downs and lockdowns.
Boris has not done enough etc etc etc. 700K will die.
I bet a large sum that within weeks (days even?) they will be screaming that the measures are too draconian and it is a human rights issue that no one can be allowed to leave their house even for a Labour Party local executive meeting.
Twats.
Well Blunkett claimed this morning this policy of hiding oldies away was ageist and dehumanizing, cos there are loads of fit and healthy OAPs....
The Corbyn Left seem to be screaming tonight for more draconian shut downs and lockdowns.
Boris has not done enough etc etc etc. 700K will die.
I bet a large sum that within weeks (days even?) they will be screaming that the measures are too draconian and it is a human rights issue that no one can be allowed to leave their house even for a Labour Party local executive meeting.
Twats.
Well Blunkett claimed this morning this policy of hiding oldies away was ageist and dehumanizing, cos there are loads of fit and healthy OAPs....
Hardly Corbyn left though.
Point was he is in the more sensible left of centre and still coming out with horseshit.
I have a colonoscopy booked in for Friday. Does anyone know if this actually likely to go ahead?
Yes, indeed probably good to get it out of the way. We have mass cancellations of outpatients and routine procedures planned from next Monday, and I expect it is similar elsewhere.
I was in for a scheduled appointment today, and the treatment nurse said they were expecting to scale back things like standard GP services and outpatients (rural day hospital/health centre) within the week.
Just seen some fuckwit British holidaymakers in Spain still out on the piss. These are the clowns who will soon be heading home, and straight in to the nearest boozer. We need enforcement, not recommendations.
The Corbyn Left seem to be screaming tonight for more draconian shut downs and lockdowns.
Boris has not done enough etc etc etc. 700K will die.
I bet a large sum that within weeks (days even?) they will be screaming that the measures are too draconian and it is a human rights issue that no one can be allowed to leave their house even for a Labour Party local executive meeting.
Twats.
I've approximated I've lost circa 80 pounds of personal investment to each point on the stock market- I have a lot of different funds- but that is probably what it works out as....do the maths..I'm a lot poorer than I was at Xmas....
I'm happy to double down on my losses with your offer.....
Boris just says ‘you shouldn’t attend social events. Any questions?’
Little different to what Sunak already announced in the budget and more can be added if needed
Don’t be ridiculous. It’s far more. SSP is only paid to the sick not the unemployed and only lasts for 14 days. You cannot live on it for months and months as you seem to think. Sunak’s Budget is inadequate and out of date.
I thought Boris was great today. As for businesses, it is a horrible time for them, but many will adapt to survive. There is (for example) a vast market there for things to be home delivered. Meals (and everything else) on wheels. Home entertainment is going to be another huge growth industry. Even humble publishing may make a comeback - for some reason the local Coop was stripped bare of magazines today.
You are completely mad if you think businesses should be expected to get through this without serious support. Pubs will be utterly screwed. The fact that Netflix will make more money won’t offer any comfort to the Dog & Duck.
Not just pubs. Bars, restaurants, music venues, theatres, cafes. Anywhere People congregate. They will go under without government help. And remember the spring to autumn period is when they make the money to tide them over the winter months. Reopening in 4 or 6 months time is not an option. If they close now very many of them will be closed for the rest of the year - or for good.
The Macron policies on rent and utility bills are very telling. These are on a completely different model to the response to the 2008 crisis.
The idea any Scottish government will want, or even get the chance, to inflict further expensive and divisive constitutional turmoil on a country in terrible traumatic pain is.... fanciful.
Good call........we might come through as a totalitarian, financially bankrupt state....but the Scots will still be attached to us
Just seen some fuckwit British holidaymakers in Spain still out on the piss. These are the clowns who will soon be heading home, and straight in to the nearest boozer. We need enforcement, not recommendations.
They would then get a load of cans and have their piss up in a park or someone's garden.
The idea any Scottish government will want, or even get the chance, to inflict further expensive and divisive constitutional turmoil on a country in terrible traumatic pain is.... fanciful.
The EU will also likely not break up, because it will be forced to support its weaker members.
The idea any Scottish government will want, or even get the chance, to inflict further expensive and divisive constitutional turmoil on a country in terrible traumatic pain is.... fanciful.
The EU will also likely not break up, because it will be forced to support its weaker members.
Would the German public be content with another round of bailouts to the southern states?
The Corbyn Left seem to be screaming tonight for more draconian shut downs and lockdowns.
Boris has not done enough etc etc etc. 700K will die.
I bet a large sum that within weeks (days even?) they will be screaming that the measures are too draconian and it is a human rights issue that no one can be allowed to leave their house even for a Labour Party local executive meeting.
Twats.
Well Blunkett claimed this morning this policy of hiding oldies away was ageist and dehumanizing, cos there are loads of fit and healthy OAPs....
Hardly Corbyn left though.
I suppose it is ageist to prioritise the survival of the elderly. Bit like women and children first on the Titanic was misogynistic.
Brexit? Lol. Who gives a damn about that mere trifle. It's like worrying about whether you put the milk back in the fridge as your house is burning down.
Is HMG still sticking to the 'no Brexit Trasition Extension' line by the way?
I don't think so, I think they're currently saying that no decision has been made at the minute and that the health emergency is their number one priority.
The government is clearly 100% focused on the Coronavirus emergency (and I suspect that it's even more severe for most EU countries), so if we implemented a four month extension to end April next year, I don't think I (or most anyone else) would get that concerned about it.
If they tried to use it to chuck a two year extension in, then that would be a different matter.
Let's see in another month...and I honestly do think you really couldn't give a flying fuck about Brexit....
I was an arch remainer...if we can get onto of the C...I'd trade that for Brexit a million times over....I just want things to be normal....
The idea any Scottish government will want, or even get the chance, to inflict further expensive and divisive constitutional turmoil on a country in terrible traumatic pain is.... fanciful.
So just to clarify, the cataclysmic virus will reduce Scottish indy to a meaningless side note of yesteryear but will also shake the foundations of the EU? Have I got that right?
My parents are 89 and 90 - they have been self isolating to avoid infection since last Friday. Just had an email from my Dad saying that, if they are infected and it becomes serious enough to require hospitalisation, they have decided to refuse and die at home on the basis that younger people will need the facilities and it would be better for society. Bloody hell. BTW they still think younger generations should be ashamed of themselves for showing lack of backbone.
I don't want to be cruel...but they will not be given that choice.....
I don't quite see your point of saying the "younger generations should be ashamed of themselves"...it presents your parents in a very poor light to be honest
Tbh I don't understand what that part of the post was relating to. In what way have they not shown backbone?
The idea any Scottish government will want, or even get the chance, to inflict further expensive and divisive constitutional turmoil on a country in terrible traumatic pain is.... fanciful.
The EU will also likely not break up, because it will be forced to support its weaker members.
Would the German public be content with another round of bailouts to the southern states?
They'll be more likely to accept it, because this time they'll know that without it the EU will collapse.
Boris just says ‘you shouldn’t attend social events. Any questions?’
Little different to what Sunak already announced in the budget and more can be added if needed
Don’t be ridiculous. It’s far more. SSP is only paid to the sick not the unemployed and only lasts for 14 days. You cannot live on it for months and months as you seem to think. Sunak’s Budget is inadequate and out of date.
I thought Boris was great today. As for businesses, it is a horrible time for them, but many will adapt to survive. There is (for example) a vast market there for things to be home delivered. Meals (and everything else) on wheels. Home entertainment is going to be another huge growth industry. Even humble publishing may make a comeback - for some reason the local Coop was stripped bare of magazines today.
You are completely mad if you think businesses should be expected to get through this without serious support. Pubs will be utterly screwed. The fact that Netflix will make more money won’t offer any comfort to the Dog & Duck.
Not just pubs. Bars, restaurants, music venues, theatres, cafes. Anywhere People congregate. They will go under without government help. And remember the spring to autumn period is when they make the money to tide them over the winter months. Reopening in 4 or 6 months time is not an option. If they close now very many of them will be closed for the rest of the year - or for good.
The Macron policies on rent and utility bills are very telling. These are on a completely different model to the response to the 2008 crisis.
Boris needs to do the same as Macron - as a bare minimum. Unless he wants to see millions unemployed by the summer.
The idea any Scottish government will want, or even get the chance, to inflict further expensive and divisive constitutional turmoil on a country in terrible traumatic pain is.... fanciful.
The EU will also likely not break up, because it will be forced to support its weaker members.
I'm really not sure about that. Nations will blame each other. Borders once closed will be hard to open. The euro will tremble as debt kicks up.
The eurocrisis and Brexit destabilised the EU, coronavirus is like a hurricane attacking an already damaged building.
I'm afraid these can be filed under the usual pro-Brexit predictions of EU collapse, not understanding the different mentality on the Continent about collective survival, but those are arguments for another day.
@JM1 I have my doubts about that surge ICU capacity. Without being able to test staff, we will run short of crew very quickly. All the PPC will be gone within days, and without resupply the staff will be horribly exposed.
My parents are 89 and 90 - they have been self isolating to avoid infection since last Friday. Just had an email from my Dad saying that, if they are infected and it becomes serious enough to require hospitalisation, they have decided to refuse and die at home on the basis that younger people will need the facilities and it would be better for society. Bloody hell. BTW they still think younger generations should be ashamed of themselves for showing lack of backbone.
I don't want to be cruel...but they will not be given that choice.....
I don't quite see your point of saying the "younger generations should be ashamed of themselves"...it presents your parents in a very poor light to be honest
Tbh I don't understand what that part of the post was relating to. In what way have they not shown backbone?
It was a nasty post..... my Italian mother in law (89 years old) in Italy is terrified...she has rung us up a few times tonight, and every time we can hear sirens in the background.....she knows if she gets sick, she'll die at home...that is a given.....
My mother in law would never dream of saying young people should be ashamed of themselves....it's sickening that someone would post something like that to alienate the old from the young (at this time)...social media for you...sometimes it's fucking horrible....
Boris just says ‘you shouldn’t attend social events. Any questions?’
Little different to what Sunak already announced in the budget and more can be added if needed
Don’t be ridiculous. It’s far more. SSP is only paid to the sick not the unemployed and only lasts for 14 days. You cannot live on it for months and months as you seem to think. Sunak’s Budget is inadequate and out of date.
I thought Boris was great today. As for businesses, it is a horrible time for them, but many will adapt to survive. There is (for example) a vast market there for things to be home delivered. Meals (and everything else) on wheels. Home entertainment is going to be another huge growth industry. Even humble publishing may make a comeback - for some reason the local Coop was stripped bare of magazines today.
You are completely mad if you think businesses should be expected to get through this without serious support. Pubs will be utterly screwed. The fact that Netflix will make more money won’t offer any comfort to the Dog & Duck.
Not just pubs. Bars, restaurants, music venues, theatres, cafes. Anywhere People congregate. They will go under without government help. And remember the spring to autumn period is when they make the money to tide them over the winter months. Reopening in 4 or 6 months time is not an option. If they close now very many of them will be closed for the rest of the year - or for good.
The Macron policies on rent and utility bills are very telling. These are on a completely different model to the response to the 2008 crisis.
At what point do we stop talking of borrowing and bailouts and start talking about a debt jubilee?
Year zero. We all come out of this on the other side, and start again.
It is completely horrifying. Lockdown is almost certain in the autumn, and I suppose next spring as well. The economy is going to be absolute toast.
If people didn't believe it before, it is war.
I just read it
Basically, if we want to save half a million lives, we have to transform society, starting NOW (and possibly collapse the economy)
Jesus.
You guys have all gone completely nuts.
There is a two week gap between actions being taken and showing up in statistics of new cases.
You're staring at the numbers today... and seeing what happened two weeks ago. This means there are a lot more people sick that you realise (probably about three more doublings to go...), but after that, as happened in China, the number of new cases starts to drop pretty quickly.
Now, we'll go through it again, as a series of mini spikes. But at least we'll know what we're doing then.
Was sorry to read that you both have relatives hit by CV-19, I hope that they pull through.
There are about a hundred or so regular PBers, and we've now had reports of several friends and relatives with it. That seems awfully high for something with only 50k cases, at most.
My sister's son- a doctor- is isolating at home with a high fever and cough (he cannot get tested....wtf????) My bosses son is positive My wife's colleague has returned from Spain with a fever and cough
My brother in laws school in London- 15 teachers are now self isolating-
I know 2 couple who've had the 2 days fever and cough... Yes, anecdotal data...
The idea any Scottish government will want, or even get the chance, to inflict further expensive and divisive constitutional turmoil on a country in terrible traumatic pain is.... fanciful.
The EU will also likely not break up, because it will be forced to support its weaker members.
I'm really not sure about that. Nations will blame each other. Borders once closed will be hard to open. The euro will tremble as debt kicks up.
The eurocrisis and Brexit destabilised the EU, coronavirus is like a hurricane attacking an already damaged building.
I'm afraid this can be filed under the usual pro-Brexit predictions of EU collapse, not understanding the different mentality on the Continent about collective survival, but these are arguments for another day.
I've never been of the EU-will-collapse school of thought. The political will to keep it together is immense.
But coronavirus is way way beyond anything we have seen for 50-100 years, only a major global war compares. And global wars demolish polities. The EU is fucked, as we know it, to my mind.
The EU is founded, psychologically, on a response to war. This is something that's always harder for British people to intuitively understand.
Boris just says ‘you shouldn’t attend social events. Any questions?’
Little different to what Sunak already announced in the budget and more can be added if needed
Don’t be ridiculous. It’s far more. SSP is only paid to the sick not the unemployed and only lasts for 14 days. You cannot live on it for months and months as you seem to think. Sunak’s Budget is inadequate and out of date.
I thought Boris was great today. As for businesses, it is a horrible time for them, but many will adapt to survive. There is (for example) a vast market there for things to be home delivered. Meals (and everything else) on wheels. Home entertainment is going to be another huge growth industry. Even humble publishing may make a comeback - for some reason the local Coop was stripped bare of magazines today.
You are completely mad if you think businesses should be expected to get through this without serious support. Pubs will be utterly screwed. The fact that Netflix will make more money won’t offer any comfort to the Dog & Duck.
Not just pubs. Bars, restaurants, music venues, theatres, cafes. Anywhere People congregate. They will go under without government help. And remember the spring to autumn period is when they make the money to tide them over the winter months. Reopening in 4 or 6 months time is not an option. If they close now very many of them will be closed for the rest of the year - or for good.
The Macron policies on rent and utility bills are very telling. These are on a completely different model to the response to the 2008 crisis.
At what point do we stop talking of borrowing and bailouts and start talking about a debt jubilee?
Year zero. We all come out of this on the other side, and start again.
And the people to whom the debt is owed, what happens to them?
One man's debts, is another man's savings. If you eliminate one, you eliminate the other. Are you planning on telling millions of oldies you've wiped out their savings?
One big question is whether Germany will continue to be able to keep its mortality rate at 0.2%. It did so again today with overall figures of 15 / 7,241.
My parents are 89 and 90 - they have been self isolating to avoid infection since last Friday. Just had an email from my Dad saying that, if they are infected and it becomes serious enough to require hospitalisation, they have decided to refuse and die at home on the basis that younger people will need the facilities and it would be better for society. Bloody hell. BTW they still think younger generations should be ashamed of themselves for showing lack of backbone.
I don't want to be cruel...but they will not be given that choice.....
I don't quite see your point of saying the "younger generations should be ashamed of themselves"...it presents your parents in a very poor light to be honest
My point - well, my parents' point actually - is that their generation who lived through WW2 as children would happily have faced the virus rather than the War. They view our panic buying and twitter ranting about the medical evidence (which by its nature is full of uncertainty) as being a poor show compared to the stoicism they and their parents showed. And I think they are right.
The idea any Scottish government will want, or even get the chance, to inflict further expensive and divisive constitutional turmoil on a country in terrible traumatic pain is.... fanciful.
The EU will also likely not break up, because it will be forced to support its weaker members.
I'm really not sure about that. Nations will blame each other. Borders once closed will be hard to open. The euro will tremble as debt kicks up.
The eurocrisis and Brexit destabilised the EU, coronavirus is like a hurricane attacking an already damaged building.
Of course it will. Your rule of thumb is working perfectly. Imagine the worst, then this is worse. Everytime.
My parents are 89 and 90 - they have been self isolating to avoid infection since last Friday. Just had an email from my Dad saying that, if they are infected and it becomes serious enough to require hospitalisation, they have decided to refuse and die at home on the basis that younger people will need the facilities and it would be better for society. Bloody hell. BTW they still think younger generations should be ashamed of themselves for showing lack of backbone.
I don't want to be cruel...but they will not be given that choice.....
I don't quite see your point of saying the "younger generations should be ashamed of themselves"...it presents your parents in a very poor light to be honest
Tbh I don't understand what that part of the post was relating to. In what way have they not shown backbone?
It was a nasty post..... my Italian mother in law (89 years old) in Italy is terrified...she has rung us up a few times tonight, and every time we can hear sirens in the background.....she knows if she gets sick, she'll die at home...that is a given.....
My mother in law would never dream of saying young people should be ashamed of themselves....it's sickening that someone would post something like that to alienate the old from the young (at this time)...social media for you...sometimes it's fucking horrible....
I have relatives in Italy in the same position.
I wish you you, your wife and mother-in-law the very best. In bocca al lupo!!
It is completely horrifying. Lockdown is almost certain in the autumn, and I suppose next spring as well. The economy is going to be absolute toast.
If people didn't believe it before, it is war.
I just read it
Basically, if we want to save half a million lives, we have to transform society, starting NOW (and possibly collapse the economy)
Jesus.
You guys have all gone completely nuts.
There is a two week gap between actions being taken and showing up in statistics of new cases.
You're staring at the numbers today... and seeing what happened two weeks ago. This means there are a lot more people sick that you realise (probably about three more doublings to go...), but after that, as happened in China, the number of new cases starts to drop pretty quickly.
Now, we'll go through it again, as a series of mini spikes. But at least we'll know what we're doing then.
@eadric do you now think the crisis is going to be more social / economical than medical? If we go into hard lockdown (which seems very likely) and then contain it (with future epidemics better managed) that will likely cut the number of fatalities but the economic consequences will be huge undoubtedly.
Yes.
If - IF - we do a successful Wuhan style lockdown we can probably reduce the mortality by an order of magnitude (tho with the fearful possibility that it might return in the autumn, winter, next year, etc)
But then you shift the damage to the economy, to society, to politics, to culture.
The govt are in serious danger of ballsing this up. The messaging is all over the place this evening.
I think they are holding back and hesitating because if they tell everyone to just hide under the duvet from tomorrow, then it will be too early.
As I keep saying, those who are screaming for everyone to be in lockdown have no idea of the mental effects of this.
Humans are social animals. Months of isolation will be a disaster.
Tonight there have been three different lines on whether healthy over 70s should stay at home for 12 weeks. It was clear this afternoon that they should, it is not clear now. It’s a mess.
The idea any Scottish government will want, or even get the chance, to inflict further expensive and divisive constitutional turmoil on a country in terrible traumatic pain is.... fanciful.
The EU will also likely not break up, because it will be forced to support its weaker members.
I'm really not sure about that. Nations will blame each other. Borders once closed will be hard to open. The euro will tremble as debt kicks up.
The eurocrisis and Brexit destabilised the EU, coronavirus is like a hurricane attacking an already damaged building.
I'm afraid this can be filed under the usual pro-Brexit predictions of EU collapse, not understanding the different mentality on the Continent about collective survival, but these are arguments for another day.
I've never been of the EU-will-collapse school of thought. The political will to keep it together is immense.
But coronavirus is way way beyond anything we have seen for 50-100 years, only a major global war compares. And global wars demolish polities. The EU is fucked, as we know it, to my mind.
The EU is founded, psychologically, on a response to war. This is something always harder for British people to understand.
And yet when the shit got real everyone retreated to the nation state...
Even I've been surprised at how the EU has been driven almost to irrelevance by this year's events.
My parents are 89 and 90 - they have been self isolating to avoid infection since last Friday. Just had an email from my Dad saying that, if they are infected and it becomes serious enough to require hospitalisation, they have decided to refuse and die at home on the basis that younger people will need the facilities and it would be better for society. Bloody hell. BTW they still think younger generations should be ashamed of themselves for showing lack of backbone.
I don't want to be cruel...but they will not be given that choice.....
I don't quite see your point of saying the "younger generations should be ashamed of themselves"...it presents your parents in a very poor light to be honest
Tbh I don't understand what that part of the post was relating to. In what way have they not shown backbone?
It was a nasty post..... my Italian mother in law (89 years old) in Italy is terrified...she has rung us up a few times tonight, and every time we can hear sirens in the background.....she knows if she gets sick, she'll die at home...that is a given.....
My mother in law would never dream of saying young people should be ashamed of themselves....it's sickening that someone would post something like that to alienate the old from the young (at this time)...social media for you...sometimes it's fucking horrible....
I have relatives in Italy in the same position.
I wish you you, your wife and mother-in-law the very best. In bocca al lupo!!
Un abbracione forte...forte...grazie Cyclefree....Andra..tutto bene
My parents are 89 and 90 - they have been self isolating to avoid infection since last Friday. Just had an email from my Dad saying that, if they are infected and it becomes serious enough to require hospitalisation, they have decided to refuse and die at home on the basis that younger people will need the facilities and it would be better for society. Bloody hell. BTW they still think younger generations should be ashamed of themselves for showing lack of backbone.
I don't want to be cruel...but they will not be given that choice.....
I don't quite see your point of saying the "younger generations should be ashamed of themselves"...it presents your parents in a very poor light to be honest
Tbh I don't understand what that part of the post was relating to. In what way have they not shown backbone?
It was a nasty post..... my Italian mother in law (89 years old) in Italy is terrified...she has rung us up a few times tonight, and every time we can hear sirens in the background.....she knows if she gets sick, she'll die at home...that is a given.....
My mother in law would never dream of saying young people should be ashamed of themselves....it's sickening that someone would post something like that to alienate the old from the young (at this time)...social media for you...sometimes it's fucking horrible....
I have relatives in Italy in the same position.
I wish you you, your wife and mother-in-law the very best. In bocca al lupo!!
I wish you and your family well. I hope my subsequent post explained my parents' view. I did not give the context about panic buying and twitter nonsense. My fault and I apologise. That was not my intent.
Boris just says ‘you shouldn’t attend social events. Any questions?’
Little different to what Sunak already announced in the budget and more can be added if needed
Don’t be ridiculous. It’s far more. SSP is only paid to the sick not the unemployed and only lasts for 14 days. You cannot live on it for months and months as you seem to think. Sunak’s Budget is inadequate and out of date.
I thought Boris was great today. As for businesses, it is a horrible time for them, but many will adapt to survive. There is (for example) a vast market there for things to be home delivered. Meals (and everything else) on wheels. Home entertainment is going to be another huge growth industry. Even humble publishing may make a comeback - for some reason the local Coop was stripped bare of magazines today.
You are completely mad if you think businesses should be expected to get through this without serious support. Pubs will be utterly screwed. The fact that Netflix will make more money won’t offer any comfort to the Dog & Duck.
Not just pubs. Bars, restaurants, music venues, theatres, cafes. Anywhere People congregate. They will go under without government help. And remember the spring to autumn period is when they make the money to tide them over the winter months. Reopening in 4 or 6 months time is not an option. If they close now very many of them will be closed for the rest of the year - or for good.
The Macron policies on rent and utility bills are very telling. These are on a completely different model to the response to the 2008 crisis.
At what point do we stop talking of borrowing and bailouts and start talking about a debt jubilee?
Year zero. We all come out of this on the other side, and start again.
And the people to whom the debt is owed, what happens to them?
One man's debts, is another man's savings. If you eliminate one, you eliminate the other. Are you planning on telling millions of oldies you've wiped out their savings?
The govt are in serious danger of ballsing this up. The messaging is all over the place this evening.
I think they are holding back and hesitating because if they tell everyone to just hide under the duvet from tomorrow, then it will be too early.
As I keep saying, those who are screaming for everyone to be in lockdown have no idea of the mental effects of this.
Humans are social animals. Months of isolation will be a disaster.
Tonight there have been three different lines on whether healthy over 70s should stay at home for 12 weeks. It was clear this afternoon that they should, it is not clear now. It’s a mess.
It is clear:
"How to avoid catching and spreading coronavirus (social distancing) Everyone should do what they can to stop coronavirus spreading.
It is particularly important for people who:
are 70 or over have a long-term condition are pregnant have a weakened immune system Do wash your hands with soap and water often – do this for at least 20 seconds
always wash your hands when you get home or into work
use hand sanitiser gel if soap and water are not available
cover your mouth and nose with a tissue or your sleeve (not your hands) when you cough or sneeze
put used tissues in the bin immediately and wash your hands afterwards
avoid close contact with people who have symptoms of coronavirus
only travel on public transport if you need to
work from home, if you can
avoid social activities, such as going to pubs, restaurants, theatres and cinemas
avoid events with large groups of people
use phone, online services, or apps to contact your GP surgery or other NHS services"
@JM1 I have my doubts about that surge ICU capacity. Without being able to test staff, we will run short of crew very quickly. All the PPC will be gone within days, and without resupply the staff will be horribly exposed.
Foxy can you explain this new advice about pregnant women?
As you and I know, until this moment the received wisdom has been: it doesn't effect them (unlike normal flu).
Is this just a new cautiousness, or is there new evidence that corona is dangerous to pregnant women?
I'm literally asking for a friend. My wife's best friend is 4 months pregnant. And scared.
Yes I'd like to know too, my partner is 8 months pregnant and in hospital and I'm going to bring her home tomorrow.
The idea any Scottish government will want, or even get the chance, to inflict further expensive and divisive constitutional turmoil on a country in terrible traumatic pain is.... fanciful.
So just to clarify, the cataclysmic virus will reduce Scottish indy to a meaningless side note of yesteryear but will also shake the foundations of the EU? Have I got that right?
Yep.
Strangely there was a bombastic poster of yesteryear whose monotonal expertise on matters Scotch was that regardless of circumstance (growing stable economy, flatlining precarious economy, EU membership, Brexit, PM Cameron, PM May, PM Johnson), the Jocks would always stick with Blighty. Don't know why they popped into my head.
My parents are 89 and 90 - they have been self isolating to avoid infection since last Friday. Just had an email from my Dad saying that, if they are infected and it becomes serious enough to require hospitalisation, they have decided to refuse and die at home on the basis that younger people will need the facilities and it would be better for society. Bloody hell. BTW they still think younger generations should be ashamed of themselves for showing lack of backbone.
I don't want to be cruel...but they will not be given that choice.....
I don't quite see your point of saying the "younger generations should be ashamed of themselves"...it presents your parents in a very poor light to be honest
Tbh I don't understand what that part of the post was relating to. In what way have they not shown backbone?
It was a nasty post..... my Italian mother in law (89 years old) in Italy is terrified...she has rung us up a few times tonight, and every time we can hear sirens in the background.....she knows if she gets sick, she'll die at home...that is a given.....
My mother in law would never dream of saying young people should be ashamed of themselves....it's sickening that someone would post something like that to alienate the old from the young (at this time)...social media for you...sometimes it's fucking horrible....
I have relatives in Italy in the same position.
I wish you you, your wife and mother-in-law the very best. In bocca al lupo!!
I wish you and your family well. I hope my subsequent post explained my parents' view. I did not give the context about panic buying and twitter nonsense. My fault and I apologise. That was not my intent.
Sorry to get so jumpity....these are really tough times, particularly for those with elderly relatives....
The govt are in serious danger of ballsing this up. The messaging is all over the place this evening.
I think they are holding back and hesitating because if they tell everyone to just hide under the duvet from tomorrow, then it will be too early.
As I keep saying, those who are screaming for everyone to be in lockdown have no idea of the mental effects of this.
Humans are social animals. Months of isolation will be a disaster.
Tonight there have been three different lines on whether healthy over 70s should stay at home for 12 weeks. It was clear this afternoon that they should, it is not clear now. It’s a mess.
It is clear:
"How to avoid catching and spreading coronavirus (social distancing) Everyone should do what they can to stop coronavirus spreading.
It is particularly important for people who:
are 70 or over have a long-term condition are pregnant have a weakened immune system Do wash your hands with soap and water often – do this for at least 20 seconds
always wash your hands when you get home or into work
use hand sanitiser gel if soap and water are not available
cover your mouth and nose with a tissue or your sleeve (not your hands) when you cough or sneeze
put used tissues in the bin immediately and wash your hands afterwards
avoid close contact with people who have symptoms of coronavirus
only travel on public transport if you need to
work from home, if you can
avoid social activities, such as going to pubs, restaurants, theatres and cinemas
avoid events with large groups of people
use phone, online services, or apps to contact your GP surgery or other NHS services"
But that is softer than the 12 week lockdown that Bozo stated this afternoon.
The govt are in serious danger of ballsing this up. The messaging is all over the place this evening.
You say that every night.
No I haven’t. I praised Boris last time. Tonight is very muddy.
It may well be to some, but the main guidelines have been set out and the daily conferences will clarify contentious issues as the media ask the questions
The idea any Scottish government will want, or even get the chance, to inflict further expensive and divisive constitutional turmoil on a country in terrible traumatic pain is.... fanciful.
The EU will also likely not break up, because it will be forced to support its weaker members.
I'm really not sure about that. Nations will blame each other. Borders once closed will be hard to open. The euro will tremble as debt kicks up.
The eurocrisis and Brexit destabilised the EU, coronavirus is like a hurricane attacking an already damaged building.
I'm afraid this can be filed under the usual pro-Brexit predictions of EU collapse, not understanding the different mentality on the Continent about collective survival, but these are arguments for another day.
I've never been of the EU-will-collapse school of thought. The political will to keep it together is immense.
But coronavirus is way way beyond anything we have seen for 50-100 years, only a major global war compares. And global wars demolish polities. The EU is fucked, as we know it, to my mind.
The EU is founded, psychologically, on a response to war. This is something always harder for British people to understand.
And yet when the shit got real everyone retreated to the nation state...
Even I've been surprised at how the EU has been driven almost to irrelevance by this year's events.
The EU will be the guarantor of economic survival for Italy and Spain, and Germany will most likely pay in a way it hasn't before.
It is completely horrifying. Lockdown is almost certain in the autumn, and I suppose next spring as well. The economy is going to be absolute toast.
If people didn't believe it before, it is war.
I just read it
Basically, if we want to save half a million lives, we have to transform society, starting NOW (and possibly collapse the economy)
Jesus.
You guys have all gone completely nuts.
There is a two week gap between actions being taken and showing up in statistics of new cases.
You're staring at the numbers today... and seeing what happened two weeks ago. This means there are a lot more people sick that you realise (probably about three more doublings to go...), but after that, as happened in China, the number of new cases starts to drop pretty quickly.
Now, we'll go through it again, as a series of mini spikes. But at least we'll know what we're doing then.
Man up PBers.
Nah. While you were spending weeks thinking hard about which non entity was going to beat which other non entity in the Democrats bullshit, we were going deep into THE black swan of the last 70 years.
You've now focused your gaze here, spent a couple of days thinking about it and think you've got it all figured out based on one graph? Lol erm no.
The govt are in serious danger of ballsing this up. The messaging is all over the place this evening.
I think they are holding back and hesitating because if they tell everyone to just hide under the duvet from tomorrow, then it will be too early.
As I keep saying, those who are screaming for everyone to be in lockdown have no idea of the mental effects of this.
Humans are social animals. Months of isolation will be a disaster.
Tonight there have been three different lines on whether healthy over 70s should stay at home for 12 weeks. It was clear this afternoon that they should, it is not clear now. It’s a mess.
From the BBC:
It says those aged over 70 and pregnant women are among those who should "stringently" follow the advice on avoiding non-essential use of public transport, working from home and not having friends and family to visit.
It also gives some tips to people on how to look after their mental health in the tough weeks and months ahead. It says people shouldn't fear going for a walk outdoors if they stay more than 2 metres from others.
That reads to me that they should stay at home apart from walking outdoors away from crowds.
Comments
Where's Dom and his out-of-the-box thinking?
I don't want to be cruel...but they will not be given that choice.....
I don't quite see your point of saying the "younger generations should be ashamed of themselves"...it presents your parents in a very poor light to be honest
They shared that with him when they told him to isolate for the duration as he is high risk.
We need to know asap about the size of the iceberg - huge or minute - and at the moment we simply don’t.
Piers Morgan is probably going to be like Trump and some genetic freak that is immune to this.
We have mass cancellations of outpatients and routine procedures planned from next Monday, and I expect it is similar elsewhere.
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1239675798975627264
Elderly people with acute respiratory problems will probably now get palliative care only...it's horrible because they could be treated if there was capacity....
I really don't get how that is not consistent with the original plan or is anything other than an evolution of it. I find the scientists completely credible. Not completely sure about the guy in the middle but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.
Hi David. Read the Imperial report. There are two clear approaches, stomp the fire out or manage it. The plan allowed for both but we were going for manage. We have pivoted towards stomp it out as the fire is uncontrollable once it gets going.
Depressing stuff really.
I suppose that is less than the crazy numbers the Guardian had formed by exploration from a single word on a single slide yesterday.
Boris has not done enough etc etc etc. 700K will die.
I bet a large sum that within weeks (days even?) they will be screaming that the measures are too draconian and it is a human rights issue that no one can be allowed to leave their house even for a Labour Party local executive meeting.
Twats.
If they tried to use it to chuck a two year extension in, then that would be a different matter.
These are the clowns who will soon be heading home, and straight in to the nearest boozer.
We need enforcement, not recommendations.
I'm happy to double down on my losses with your offer.....
I hear a child...
It's like worrying about whether you put the milk back in the fridge as your house is burning down.
I was an arch remainer...if we can get onto of the C...I'd trade that for Brexit a million times over....I just want things to be normal....
As compared to - https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/01/23/new-york-city-bans-cashless-businesses/4551974002/
I have my doubts about that surge ICU capacity. Without being able to test staff, we will run short of crew very quickly. All the PPC will be gone within days, and without resupply the staff will be horribly exposed.
My mother in law would never dream of saying young people should be ashamed of themselves....it's sickening that someone would post something like that to alienate the old from the young (at this time)...social media for you...sometimes it's fucking horrible....
Year zero. We all come out of this on the other side, and start again.
You guys have all gone completely nuts.
There is a two week gap between actions being taken and showing up in statistics of new cases.
You're staring at the numbers today... and seeing what happened two weeks ago. This means there are a lot more people sick that you realise (probably about three more doublings to go...), but after that, as happened in China, the number of new cases starts to drop pretty quickly.
Now, we'll go through it again, as a series of mini spikes. But at least we'll know what we're doing then.
Man up PBers.
As I keep saying, those who are screaming for everyone to be in lockdown have no idea of the mental effects of this.
Humans are social animals. Months of isolation will be a disaster.
Time for bed.
One man's debts, is another man's savings. If you eliminate one, you eliminate the other. Are you planning on telling millions of oldies you've wiped out their savings?
The plan is to reduce the cases as quickly as possible now that the herd immunity plan is out the window.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
I wish you you, your wife and mother-in-law the very best. In bocca al lupo!!
Keep posting.
Even I've been surprised at how the EU has been driven almost to irrelevance by this year's events.
"How to avoid catching and spreading coronavirus (social distancing)
Everyone should do what they can to stop coronavirus spreading.
It is particularly important for people who:
are 70 or over
have a long-term condition
are pregnant
have a weakened immune system
Do
wash your hands with soap and water often – do this for at least 20 seconds
always wash your hands when you get home or into work
use hand sanitiser gel if soap and water are not available
cover your mouth and nose with a tissue or your sleeve (not your hands) when you cough or sneeze
put used tissues in the bin immediately and wash your hands afterwards
avoid close contact with people who have symptoms of coronavirus
only travel on public transport if you need to
work from home, if you can
avoid social activities, such as going to pubs, restaurants, theatres and cinemas
avoid events with large groups of people
use phone, online services, or apps to contact your GP surgery or other NHS services"
You've now focused your gaze here, spent a couple of days thinking about it and think you've got it all figured out based on one graph? Lol erm no.
It does not bear thinking about.
It says those aged over 70 and pregnant women are among those who should "stringently" follow the advice on avoiding non-essential use of public transport, working from home and not having friends and family to visit.
It also gives some tips to people on how to look after their mental health in the tough weeks and months ahead. It says people shouldn't fear going for a walk outdoors if they stay more than 2 metres from others.
That reads to me that they should stay at home apart from walking outdoors away from crowds.