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  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    One of the things that stuck in my mind from the MRP was the knife edge red constituencies that would probably go blue without the BXP vote.

    I wonder how tactical BXP voters will be in those constituencies now...
  • 148grss said:

    TOPPING said:

    I think you (and the noble Lord) have it right here. There will def be cut through. NHS has problems and Cons' commitment to spend on it will be viewed in the same light as their "do or die" pledges on Brexit. ie don't believe a fucking word of it.
    Although he is positioning this as a first Johnson administration, it would of course be a fourth Conservative one and I think people will become more and more nervous in particular about the NHS as a result.

    The really dumb thing is that the Tories have been given some very good opportunities to attack Labour on the NHS, which they are not using. They should be laying into Labour on the implications for the NHS of their 4-day week stuff, signing back into the Working Hours directive, and most of all on Labour's plan to stop referring patients to locally-popular privately-run hospitals and clinics.
    But there is a difference between worker rights policies affecting the NHS and selling it off. Coz Labour can always just say "we will have a 24/7 NHS on a 4 day working week by hiring more nurses and doctors, paying them better wages and spending more money" whereas accusations of privitisation, something Tories ideologically are in favour of, are more difficult to wave away with something else. Labour's answer would be nonsense, but it would be nonsense in line with what people expect from them. The Tories just saying "no we won't privatise stuff" runs opposite to what people know of Tories.
    Sure, but the point is they can throw stuff back at Labour, and thereby muddy the waters and blunt the effect of Labour's nonsense. They're not even trying - this is as bad a national campaign as Theresa May's in that respect (unless there's some highly targetted stuff going on under the radar).
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    I already took it a few months ago at 1.94, might stick some more on now

    Yeah I'm on NOM. I just don't see people having a transformational moment one way or another. Betting markets however are pretty solid although Cons Maj just come in a tadge now 2/5 Cons Maj.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494

    Can I just point out that Labour as a radically left-wing party is still polling higher than Brown and Ed all achieved

    Brown spent 13 years living in Downing Street. Ed was facing a first term Tory-led government just a couple of years after Labour ran out of money.
    Labour did not run out of money.
    No, the country did because of the decisions made by Gordon Brown over a 13 year period.
  • DeClareDeClare Posts: 483

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/1200410891059171328

    This is all the momentum (pardon the pun) the Labour sides need.

    Hung Parliament here we come - and an end to Brexit.

    Another one who thinks that Brexit will just go away! how nieve can you get?

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    Jason said:

    kle4 said:

    I guess boris could survive a night like 2017 in share if scon held up better than slab and just a couple of northern gains. But itsd be tight.

    Anyone care to start running a book on the amount of times kle4 and CHB reference '2017'?
    So long as you don't make it a drinking game. Or also run a book on amount of times people have said it is not 2017, not even in reply to someone saying it is.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    148grss said:

    But there is a difference between worker rights policies affecting the NHS and selling it off. Coz Labour can always just say "we will have a 24/7 NHS on a 4 day working week by hiring more nurses and doctors, paying them better wages and spending more money" whereas accusations of privitisation, something Tories ideologically are in favour of, are more difficult to wave away with something else. Labour's answer would be nonsense, but it would be nonsense in line with what people expect from them. The Tories just saying "no we won't privatise stuff" runs opposite to what people know of Tories.

    Also true. The NHS is a lost cause to the Cons (cf Lab on defence, even if they had a leadership minded to give a fuck about Britain's defence).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    Can I just point out that Labour as a radically left-wing party is still polling higher than Brown and Ed all achieved

    Brown spent 13 years living in Downing Street. Ed was facing a first term Tory-led government just a couple of years after Labour ran out of money.
    Labour did not run out of money.
    9 years on people may believe that.
  • spudgfsh said:

    Can I just point out that Labour as a radically left-wing party is still polling higher than Brown and Ed all achieved

    Brown spent 13 years living in Downing Street. Ed was facing a first term Tory-led government just a couple of years after Labour ran out of money.
    Labour did not run out of money.
    No, the country did because of the decisions made by Gordon Brown over a 13 year period.
    We never ran out of money - Gordon Brown nor Labour did not result in the UK running out of money. That's a complete lie.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,130
    Stocky said:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/1200410891059171328

    This is all the momentum (pardon the pun) the Labour sides need.

    Hung Parliament here we come - and an end to Brexit.

    Betfair have Tory Majority coming in at 1.44. No overall majority could be value at 5/2?
    Query the term "coming in": does that mean the number 1.44 is getting bigger or smaller?
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494
    DeClare said:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/1200410891059171328

    This is all the momentum (pardon the pun) the Labour sides need.

    Hung Parliament here we come - and an end to Brexit.

    Another one who thinks that Brexit will just go away! how nieve can you get?
    Even a LibDem majority Government revoking A50 wouldn't stop brexit. there'd be a new push for a leave vote.
  • DeClare said:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/1200410891059171328

    This is all the momentum (pardon the pun) the Labour sides need.

    Hung Parliament here we come - and an end to Brexit.

    Another one who thinks that Brexit will just go away! how nieve can you get?

    The best chance we have of ending Brexit is with a Labour minority Government introducing a referendum where we can vote to Remain in the EU.

    That Government can then tackle the real causes of Brexit.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    A couple of points worth noting about the Panelbase poll:

    * The figures are based on the (undisclosed) subsample of respondents who said they were 8-10 out of 10 certain to vote. It would be interested to know what numbers of people leaning to each party had lower ratings, and indeed for the electorate overall. We can reasonably assume that marginal seats will have higher actual turnout.

    * Nearly all the parties' policies are quite popular. Tax guarantee? Yes. Points-based immigration? Sure. Nationalised railways? Fine. Abolishing private school tax breaks? Yep. Building lots of houses? Definitely. Only "Continuing to roll out Universal Credit" gets a dubious look.

    * Age and gender are decisive factors. Older men prefer Con to Lab by 2.5:1; young women prefer Lab to Con by 3:1.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,613
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Who the hell are all these Labour voters that emerge out of the woodwork with a few weeks to go to the election ?

    Always the same.
    These next two weeks can't go quickly enough !

    In other news I've bought a new Telly.
    Hope you don't discover you've been had on your purchase on Black Friday. Should hate to think it was a Telly save-less......
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    edited November 2019
    DeClare said:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/1200410891059171328

    This is all the momentum (pardon the pun) the Labour sides need.

    Hung Parliament here we come - and an end to Brexit.

    Another one who thinks that Brexit will just go away! how nieve can you get?

    Well, if a hung parliament a confirmatory referendum becomes likely. If Remain wins then this will be an end to Brexit. I can`t see the country going down this path again. Give it ten or so years and the old buggers who voted leave with their rose-tinted specs will have died off.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212

    Sean_F said:

    A Populus poll for Finchley & Golders Green has Con 29%, Lib Dem 24%, Labour 14%, the rest being mostly don't knows/ won't vote presumably.

    That's quite a difference from the YouGov MRP model, which has central forecasts of Con 45%, Lab 28%, LD 27% (albeit with large error bars on those figures). But then I guess the YouGov model doesn't take account of the LibDems throwing every bar-chart they've got at this seat.
    The constituency poll translates to

    Con 43
    Lib Dem 36
    Lab 20

    & a 67% turnout if you think about it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Who the hell are all these Labour voters that emerge out of the woodwork with a few weeks to go to the election ?

    Always the same.
    These next two weeks can't go quickly enough !

    In other news I've bought a new Telly.
    I’ve bought a new amplifier (15% off) and some new shoes (30% off)
  • https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1200415959019925506

    Would be a disaster for both Tories and Labour - but of course Labour don't really care as they know the SNP will prop them up
  • spudgfsh said:

    Can I just point out that Labour as a radically left-wing party is still polling higher than Brown and Ed all achieved

    Brown spent 13 years living in Downing Street. Ed was facing a first term Tory-led government just a couple of years after Labour ran out of money.
    Labour did not run out of money.
    No, the country did because of the decisions made by Gordon Brown over a 13 year period.
    We never ran out of money - Gordon Brown nor Labour did not result in the UK running out of money. That's a complete lie.
    Depends what you mean by running out of money. They were borrowing one pound for every three raised in taxes, which was profligacy on a gargantuan scale, however you cut it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Sean_F said:

    A Populus poll for Finchley & Golders Green has Con 29%, Lib Dem 24%, Labour 14%, the rest being mostly don't knows/ won't vote presumably.

    That's quite a difference from the YouGov MRP model, which has central forecasts of Con 45%, Lab 28%, LD 27% (albeit with large error bars on those figures). But then I guess the YouGov model doesn't take account of the LibDems throwing every bar-chart they've got at this seat.
    OGH’s letters have landed, then?
  • I still live in hope the Russia Report will get leaked in full
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1200415959019925506

    Would be a disaster for both Tories and Labour - but of course Labour don't really care as they know the SNP will prop them up

    Wouldn't the Tories retain most of their seats on those numbers?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    Perhaps the unsafe trousers adds to his charm? Then again, according to Marquee_Mark, women don`t like him so maybe that doesn`t work.

    It definitely does add to his appeal with some people. I've heard plenty of it. Mainly from men of a certain 'type'. One tries to avoid these sorts but it's not always possible.
    Just asked my wife: she says that Boris is a bit of a "cad and a bounder" which gives him a certain charm (she won`t vote Tory, but that`s cus she`s a LibDem).
    Then again she married me so what does she know?
    Not to make the same mistake twice? ;)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,130
    edited November 2019

    Can I just point out that Labour as a radically left-wing party is still polling higher than Brown and Ed all achieved

    Brown spent 13 years living in Downing Street. Ed was facing a first term Tory-led government just a couple of years after Labour ran out of money.
    Indeed. A profligate government willing to spunk other people's money up the wall with wild abandon in order to buy votes. It's lucky we have a nice Conservative Party to prevent hat happening. Lucky us. Lucky, lucky us...
    (Walks to door, opens it, screams "Godsdammit" into the wind...)
  • DeClareDeClare Posts: 483

    DeClare said:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/1200410891059171328

    This is all the momentum (pardon the pun) the Labour sides need.

    Hung Parliament here we come - and an end to Brexit.

    Another one who thinks that Brexit will just go away! how nieve can you get?

    The best chance we have of ending Brexit is with a Labour minority Government introducing a referendum where we can vote to Remain in the EU.

    That Government can then tackle the real causes of Brexit.
    The real cause of Brexit was the historic mistake made in the 1960's to join what eventually became the EU.
    At whatever cost, this mistake has to be corrected, otherwise it's never going to go away.
  • RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1200415959019925506

    Would be a disaster for both Tories and Labour - but of course Labour don't really care as they know the SNP will prop them up

    Wouldn't the Tories retain most of their seats on those numbers?
    Losing any Scottish seats will put a big dent in any chance of Johnson hanging on as PM, if his supposed "master" strategy ends up failing him
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212
    Stocky said:

    DeClare said:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/1200410891059171328

    This is all the momentum (pardon the pun) the Labour sides need.

    Hung Parliament here we come - and an end to Brexit.

    Another one who thinks that Brexit will just go away! how nieve can you get?

    Well, if a hung parliament a confirmatory referendum becomes likely. If Remain wins then this will be an end to Brexit. I can`t see the country going down this path again. Give it ten or so years and the old buggers who voted leave with their rose-tinted specs will have died off.
    It depends on the hanging numbers. 320 Tories and 7 DUP gets Brexit done, but not how anyone would like.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited November 2019

    One of the things that stuck in my mind from the MRP was the knife edge red constituencies that would probably go blue without the BXP vote.

    I wonder how tactical BXP voters will be in those constituencies now...

    You’re making the same false assumption that people mistakenly made with UKIP in 2017. BXP have been driven down to the point where most of their remaining voters are people who simply won’t vote Tory.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1200415959019925506

    Would be a disaster for both Tories and Labour - but of course Labour don't really care as they know the SNP will prop them up

    Wouldn't the Tories retain most of their seats on those numbers?
    Losing any Scottish seats will put a big dent in any chance of Johnson hanging on as PM, if his supposed "master" strategy ends up failing him
    I mean losing one or two is bad, but it certainly isn't a disaster.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1200415959019925506

    Would be a disaster for both Tories and Labour - but of course Labour don't really care as they know the SNP will prop them up

    Wouldn't the Tories retain most of their seats on those numbers?
    Losing any Scottish seats will put a big dent in any chance of Johnson hanging on as PM, if his supposed "master" strategy ends up failing him
    I mean losing one or two is bad, but it certainly isn't a disaster.
    If his strategy falls to pieces, every seat is going to matter.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    spudgfsh said:

    Can I just point out that Labour as a radically left-wing party is still polling higher than Brown and Ed all achieved

    Brown spent 13 years living in Downing Street. Ed was facing a first term Tory-led government just a couple of years after Labour ran out of money.
    Labour did not run out of money.
    No, the country did because of the decisions made by Gordon Brown over a 13 year period.
    We never ran out of money - Gordon Brown nor Labour did not result in the UK running out of money. That's a complete lie.
    Tell that to Liam Byrne, then.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited November 2019
    Does anyone have a link to a summary of what the 2017 polling enquiry showed, and what changes were made after it?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1200415959019925506

    Would be a disaster for both Tories and Labour - but of course Labour don't really care as they know the SNP will prop them up

    Wouldn't the Tories retain most of their seats on those numbers?
    Losing any Scottish seats will put a big dent in any chance of Johnson hanging on as PM, if his supposed "master" strategy ends up failing him
    I mean losing one or two is bad, but it certainly isn't a disaster.
    If his strategy falls to pieces, every seat is going to matter.
    Perhaps, but I question the use of the word disaster to describe that, especially given previous predictions of a Tory wipeout north of the border.
  • Endillion said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Can I just point out that Labour as a radically left-wing party is still polling higher than Brown and Ed all achieved

    Brown spent 13 years living in Downing Street. Ed was facing a first term Tory-led government just a couple of years after Labour ran out of money.
    Labour did not run out of money.
    No, the country did because of the decisions made by Gordon Brown over a 13 year period.
    We never ran out of money - Gordon Brown nor Labour did not result in the UK running out of money. That's a complete lie.
    Tell that to Liam Byrne, then.
    I don't give a toss what that letter says, the UK did not run out of money.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    A couple of points worth noting about the Panelbase poll:

    * The figures are based on the (undisclosed) subsample of respondents who said they were 8-10 out of 10 certain to vote. It would be interested to know what numbers of people leaning to each party had lower ratings, and indeed for the electorate overall. We can reasonably assume that marginal seats will have higher actual turnout.

    * Nearly all the parties' policies are quite popular. Tax guarantee? Yes. Points-based immigration? Sure. Nationalised railways? Fine. Abolishing private school tax breaks? Yep. Building lots of houses? Definitely. Only "Continuing to roll out Universal Credit" gets a dubious look.

    * Age and gender are decisive factors. Older men prefer Con to Lab by 2.5:1; young women prefer Lab to Con by 3:1.

    It’s a bit annoying that Panelbase don’t show the full data . In the majority of the polls I’ve seen Tory turnout was around 6 points higher than Labour . Indeed in the ICM without the differential turnout the Tories would be only one point ahead on 36 v 35.

    The big interest this weekend is what pollsters like Opinium show. I really hope that’s not going to stick out again with it’s horrendous Tory lead .
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    edited November 2019

    Endillion said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Can I just point out that Labour as a radically left-wing party is still polling higher than Brown and Ed all achieved

    Brown spent 13 years living in Downing Street. Ed was facing a first term Tory-led government just a couple of years after Labour ran out of money.
    Labour did not run out of money.
    No, the country did because of the decisions made by Gordon Brown over a 13 year period.
    We never ran out of money - Gordon Brown nor Labour did not result in the UK running out of money. That's a complete lie.
    Tell that to Liam Byrne, then.
    I don't give a toss what that letter says, the UK did not run out of money.
    If it hadn't run out, why did it have to borrow loads off the gilt market?
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    In hypothetical land, let's say there is another HP. What do we think the parties narratives are to claim legitimacy. Obvs Cons will go largest party and oppo will go with denied majority to sitting government, but on Brexit specifically, surely Johnson cannot again claim that Parliament is being undemocratic if they refuse to pass his deal? If the country, which has produces 2 HP in the last 3 elections, does the same, where do we go? And if a 2nd ref occurs without Labour being in government (say a Con minority government have it forced through with only oppo MPs votes), what happens then? Do we think Johnson's deal beats remain? Would Johnson accept Remain if it won? Or would he call on Corbyn to form a gov / resign to another Tory PM?
  • Reports of shooting on London Bridge. Stay safe, cockney PBers.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    viewcode said:

    Stocky said:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/1200410891059171328

    This is all the momentum (pardon the pun) the Labour sides need.

    Hung Parliament here we come - and an end to Brexit.

    Betfair have Tory Majority coming in at 1.44. No overall majority could be value at 5/2?
    Query the term "coming in": does that mean the number 1.44 is getting bigger or smaller?
    Smaller usually (becoming more likely), but in the above context it might just be a factual statement that it is currently 1.44.
  • 148grss said:

    In hypothetical land, let's say there is another HP. What do we think the parties narratives are to claim legitimacy. Obvs Cons will go largest party and oppo will go with denied majority to sitting government, but on Brexit specifically, surely Johnson cannot again claim that Parliament is being undemocratic if they refuse to pass his deal? If the country, which has produces 2 HP in the last 3 elections, does the same, where do we go? And if a 2nd ref occurs without Labour being in government (say a Con minority government have it forced through with only oppo MPs votes), what happens then? Do we think Johnson's deal beats remain? Would Johnson accept Remain if it won? Or would he call on Corbyn to form a gov / resign to another Tory PM?

    If it's a Hung Parliament it will almost certainly be a Labour minority.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494

    spudgfsh said:

    Can I just point out that Labour as a radically left-wing party is still polling higher than Brown and Ed all achieved

    Brown spent 13 years living in Downing Street. Ed was facing a first term Tory-led government just a couple of years after Labour ran out of money.
    Labour did not run out of money.
    No, the country did because of the decisions made by Gordon Brown over a 13 year period.
    We never ran out of money - Gordon Brown nor Labour did not result in the UK running out of money. That's a complete lie.
    If I can service my debts but cannot afford to pay for the other things that I need (eg shoes, clothes etc) then I have run out of money. That is the position that we were in and it was caused by Gordon Brown hubristically believing that he'd abolished the business cycle. He should have been preparing for the next crash between 2002 and 2007 when he was in charge of all the money that the country spends. instead he kept pumping money into the economy until a shock stopped the money from being available.

    Anyone with even the smallest understanding of economics in 2002 who looked at the amount of debt that was building up in the economy (both personal, business and yes governmental) would have understood that one shock to the economy would spell disaster.

    Gordon Brown was, for 10 years, in charge of all of the decisions in the economy which impacted all of these types of debt and he singularly failed to do anything about it. He, and it is mainly he and his cabal of Brownites, were responsible for the UK not being prepared for the financial crisis. Had he done more then there would have had to have been less of a correction since 2008.

    Just because someone, or a country, hasn't gone bankrupt it doesn't mean that they have not run out of money.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    nico67 said:

    A couple of points worth noting about the Panelbase poll:

    * The figures are based on the (undisclosed) subsample of respondents who said they were 8-10 out of 10 certain to vote. It would be interested to know what numbers of people leaning to each party had lower ratings, and indeed for the electorate overall. We can reasonably assume that marginal seats will have higher actual turnout.

    * Nearly all the parties' policies are quite popular. Tax guarantee? Yes. Points-based immigration? Sure. Nationalised railways? Fine. Abolishing private school tax breaks? Yep. Building lots of houses? Definitely. Only "Continuing to roll out Universal Credit" gets a dubious look.

    * Age and gender are decisive factors. Older men prefer Con to Lab by 2.5:1; young women prefer Lab to Con by 3:1.

    It’s a bit annoying that Panelbase don’t show the full data . In the majority of the polls I’ve seen Tory turnout was around 6 points higher than Labour . Indeed in the ICM without the differential turnout the Tories would be only one point ahead on 36 v 35.

    The big interest this weekend is what pollsters like Opinium show. I really hope that’s not going to stick out again with it’s horrendous Tory lead .
    MRP showed a bucket of data, it was simply data you didn;t like.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212

    148grss said:

    In hypothetical land, let's say there is another HP. What do we think the parties narratives are to claim legitimacy. Obvs Cons will go largest party and oppo will go with denied majority to sitting government, but on Brexit specifically, surely Johnson cannot again claim that Parliament is being undemocratic if they refuse to pass his deal? If the country, which has produces 2 HP in the last 3 elections, does the same, where do we go? And if a 2nd ref occurs without Labour being in government (say a Con minority government have it forced through with only oppo MPs votes), what happens then? Do we think Johnson's deal beats remain? Would Johnson accept Remain if it won? Or would he call on Corbyn to form a gov / resign to another Tory PM?

    If it's a Hung Parliament it will almost certainly be a Labour minority.
    That's simply not true.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,236
    Well despite the recent Labour surge on here - which I love - the Con majority spread is solid at 51/54.
    I'm long at 15 for a lot and I am NOT closing any. I'm running it all the way to D day.
    #ironballs
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    edited November 2019

    148grss said:

    In hypothetical land, let's say there is another HP. What do we think the parties narratives are to claim legitimacy. Obvs Cons will go largest party and oppo will go with denied majority to sitting government, but on Brexit specifically, surely Johnson cannot again claim that Parliament is being undemocratic if they refuse to pass his deal? If the country, which has produces 2 HP in the last 3 elections, does the same, where do we go? And if a 2nd ref occurs without Labour being in government (say a Con minority government have it forced through with only oppo MPs votes), what happens then? Do we think Johnson's deal beats remain? Would Johnson accept Remain if it won? Or would he call on Corbyn to form a gov / resign to another Tory PM?

    If it's a Hung Parliament it will almost certainly be a Labour minority.
    That`s interesting. I`ve raised this a few times on PB.com. The view was that Tories, as incumbent, get first bite at the cherry to go forward on minority basis. True they could get no-confidenced quickly, but my money would be on the opposition parties keeping a wounded Tory Party in power like they did before the election was called.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Looks like a possible terror incident at London bridge
  • 148grss said:

    In hypothetical land, let's say there is another HP. What do we think the parties narratives are to claim legitimacy. Obvs Cons will go largest party and oppo will go with denied majority to sitting government, but on Brexit specifically, surely Johnson cannot again claim that Parliament is being undemocratic if they refuse to pass his deal? If the country, which has produces 2 HP in the last 3 elections, does the same, where do we go? And if a 2nd ref occurs without Labour being in government (say a Con minority government have it forced through with only oppo MPs votes), what happens then? Do we think Johnson's deal beats remain? Would Johnson accept Remain if it won? Or would he call on Corbyn to form a gov / resign to another Tory PM?

    If it's a Hung Parliament it will almost certainly be a Labour minority.
    But unlikely to be led by Corbyn.
  • Yes, I think a HP will almost see Corbyn resign.
  • Christ, another election with a terrorist incident?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    Endillion said:

    viewcode said:

    Stocky said:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/1200410891059171328

    This is all the momentum (pardon the pun) the Labour sides need.

    Hung Parliament here we come - and an end to Brexit.

    Betfair have Tory Majority coming in at 1.44. No overall majority could be value at 5/2?
    Query the term "coming in": does that mean the number 1.44 is getting bigger or smaller?
    Smaller usually (becoming more likely), but in the above context it might just be a factual statement that it is currently 1.44.
    I do apologise - I should have said "going out". It was 1.41 this morning, now 1.44.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494

    148grss said:

    In hypothetical land, let's say there is another HP. What do we think the parties narratives are to claim legitimacy. Obvs Cons will go largest party and oppo will go with denied majority to sitting government, but on Brexit specifically, surely Johnson cannot again claim that Parliament is being undemocratic if they refuse to pass his deal? If the country, which has produces 2 HP in the last 3 elections, does the same, where do we go? And if a 2nd ref occurs without Labour being in government (say a Con minority government have it forced through with only oppo MPs votes), what happens then? Do we think Johnson's deal beats remain? Would Johnson accept Remain if it won? Or would he call on Corbyn to form a gov / resign to another Tory PM?

    If it's a Hung Parliament it will almost certainly be a Labour minority.
    Labour needs to be in the region of 275 seats for that to be even a remote possibility (assuming that the SNP are on about 40 seats.

    no matter what the polls are saying about the labour share of the vote going up they need to be in front in the polls to have enough seats to form any kind of government. otherwise the Tories will have too many seats for it to happen
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Pulpstar said:

    148grss said:

    In hypothetical land, let's say there is another HP. What do we think the parties narratives are to claim legitimacy. Obvs Cons will go largest party and oppo will go with denied majority to sitting government, but on Brexit specifically, surely Johnson cannot again claim that Parliament is being undemocratic if they refuse to pass his deal? If the country, which has produces 2 HP in the last 3 elections, does the same, where do we go? And if a 2nd ref occurs without Labour being in government (say a Con minority government have it forced through with only oppo MPs votes), what happens then? Do we think Johnson's deal beats remain? Would Johnson accept Remain if it won? Or would he call on Corbyn to form a gov / resign to another Tory PM?

    If it's a Hung Parliament it will almost certainly be a Labour minority.
    That's simply not true.
    Yeah, I have to say I think if Tories get May numbers they will still try and govern. But they can't use the same talking points of zombie parliament and so on, so what they do, I have no idea. Unless the Tories just say "Fuck it" and call another GE until they get an answer they like.
  • Stocky said:

    148grss said:

    In hypothetical land, let's say there is another HP. What do we think the parties narratives are to claim legitimacy. Obvs Cons will go largest party and oppo will go with denied majority to sitting government, but on Brexit specifically, surely Johnson cannot again claim that Parliament is being undemocratic if they refuse to pass his deal? If the country, which has produces 2 HP in the last 3 elections, does the same, where do we go? And if a 2nd ref occurs without Labour being in government (say a Con minority government have it forced through with only oppo MPs votes), what happens then? Do we think Johnson's deal beats remain? Would Johnson accept Remain if it won? Or would he call on Corbyn to form a gov / resign to another Tory PM?

    If it's a Hung Parliament it will almost certainly be a Labour minority.
    That`s interesting. I`ve raised this a few times on PB.com. The view was that Tories, as incumbent, get first bite at the cherry to go forward on minority basis. True they could get no-confidenced quickly, but my money would be on the opposition parties keeping a wounded Tory Party in power like they did before the election was called.
    I think IFG have a page on this.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    hoping the guy dead was a terrorist shot by police.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    spudgfsh said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Can I just point out that Labour as a radically left-wing party is still polling higher than Brown and Ed all achieved

    Brown spent 13 years living in Downing Street. Ed was facing a first term Tory-led government just a couple of years after Labour ran out of money.
    Labour did not run out of money.
    No, the country did because of the decisions made by Gordon Brown over a 13 year period.
    We never ran out of money - Gordon Brown nor Labour did not result in the UK running out of money. That's a complete lie.
    If I can service my debts but cannot afford to pay for the other things that I need (eg shoes, clothes etc) then I have run out of money. That is the position that we were in and it was caused by Gordon Brown hubristically believing that he'd abolished the business cycle. He should have been preparing for the next crash between 2002 and 2007 when he was in charge of all the money that the country spends. instead he kept pumping money into the economy until a shock stopped the money from being available.

    Anyone with even the smallest understanding of economics in 2002 who looked at the amount of debt that was building up in the economy (both personal, business and yes governmental) would have understood that one shock to the economy would spell disaster.

    Gordon Brown was, for 10 years, in charge of all of the decisions in the economy which impacted all of these types of debt and he singularly failed to do anything about it. He, and it is mainly he and his cabal of Brownites, were responsible for the UK not being prepared for the financial crisis. Had he done more then there would have had to have been less of a correction since 2008.

    Just because someone, or a country, hasn't gone bankrupt it doesn't mean that they have not run out of money.
    Yeah, this.
    Obviously we can't ever "run out of money" in the strict sense, since we can just print more of it. However, in the practical sense, by 2010 it was impossible for the UK to continue spending at its current rate without major consequences. Specifically, in terms of how able it was to continue borrowing to service the huge NSPCR without impacting its credit rating and consequently being able to rollover existing debt obligations.
    We had, in all senses of the word except the one that matters least, "run out of money".
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614

    Yes, I think a HP will almost see Corbyn resign.

    Out of all the mad predictions you've punted here, I think this is the most unlikely. Corbyn will not resign, no way. If he has even the most miniscule chance of enacting his Project Bankrupt on the country, he will cling on.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    And now:
    Events, dear boy, events...
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    148grss said:

    In hypothetical land, let's say there is another HP. What do we think the parties narratives are to claim legitimacy. Obvs Cons will go largest party and oppo will go with denied majority to sitting government, but on Brexit specifically, surely Johnson cannot again claim that Parliament is being undemocratic if they refuse to pass his deal? If the country, which has produces 2 HP in the last 3 elections, does the same, where do we go? And if a 2nd ref occurs without Labour being in government (say a Con minority government have it forced through with only oppo MPs votes), what happens then? Do we think Johnson's deal beats remain? Would Johnson accept Remain if it won? Or would he call on Corbyn to form a gov / resign to another Tory PM?

    If it's a Hung Parliament it will almost certainly be a Labour minority.
    But unlikely to be led by Corbyn.
    Why? The minority government will be immediate, whilst the process to put in place an new Labour leader will take four months (as I pointed out a couple of weeks ago, after looking at the 2015 experience).
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Oh no, I'm sure the Tories will vigorously complain about deceptively edited footage.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,912
    Brom said:

    Looks like a possible terror incident at London bridge

    I clicked a link expecting to see police cars or something, and it was instead of two police officers with rifles shooting at a guy lying on the ground!
  • spudgfsh said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Can I just point out that Labour as a radically left-wing party is still polling higher than Brown and Ed all achieved

    Brown spent 13 years living in Downing Street. Ed was facing a first term Tory-led government just a couple of years after Labour ran out of money.
    Labour did not run out of money.
    No, the country did because of the decisions made by Gordon Brown over a 13 year period.
    We never ran out of money - Gordon Brown nor Labour did not result in the UK running out of money. That's a complete lie.
    If I can service my debts but cannot afford to pay for the other things that I need (eg shoes, clothes etc) then I have run out of money. That is the position that we were in and it was caused by Gordon Brown hubristically believing that he'd abolished the business cycle. He should have been preparing for the next crash between 2002 and 2007 when he was in charge of all the money that the country spends. instead he kept pumping money into the economy until a shock stopped the money from being available.

    Anyone with even the smallest understanding of economics in 2002 who looked at the amount of debt that was building up in the economy (both personal, business and yes governmental) would have understood that one shock to the economy would spell disaster.

    Gordon Brown was, for 10 years, in charge of all of the decisions in the economy which impacted all of these types of debt and he singularly failed to do anything about it. He, and it is mainly he and his cabal of Brownites, were responsible for the UK not being prepared for the financial crisis. Had he done more then there would have had to have been less of a correction since 2008.

    Just because someone, or a country, hasn't gone bankrupt it doesn't mean that they have not run out of money.
    Well said.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,236
    Will anyone give me 200/1 on there being a new thread?
  • kinabalu said:

    Will anyone give me 200/1 on there being a new thread?

    After-timer!
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494
    Jason said:

    Yes, I think a HP will almost see Corbyn resign.

    Out of all the mad predictions you've punted here, I think this is the most unlikely. Corbyn will not resign, no way. If he has even the most miniscule chance of enacting his Project Bankrupt on the country, he will cling on.
    Indeed, he may be asked to resign but he won't voluntarily resign. I expect him to only resign in the event of a Tory majority government which looks stable enough to last 5 years.
  • Stocky said:

    148grss said:

    In hypothetical land, let's say there is another HP. What do we think the parties narratives are to claim legitimacy. Obvs Cons will go largest party and oppo will go with denied majority to sitting government, but on Brexit specifically, surely Johnson cannot again claim that Parliament is being undemocratic if they refuse to pass his deal? If the country, which has produces 2 HP in the last 3 elections, does the same, where do we go? And if a 2nd ref occurs without Labour being in government (say a Con minority government have it forced through with only oppo MPs votes), what happens then? Do we think Johnson's deal beats remain? Would Johnson accept Remain if it won? Or would he call on Corbyn to form a gov / resign to another Tory PM?

    If it's a Hung Parliament it will almost certainly be a Labour minority.
    But unlikely to be led by Corbyn.
    Why? The minority government will be immediate, whilst the process to put in place an new Labour leader will take four months (as I pointed out a couple of weeks ago, after looking at the 2015 experience).
    Also, if Labour have gained seats under Corbyn (again), there's no way he's standing down.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pulpstar said:

    Who the hell are all these Labour voters that emerge out of the woodwork with a few weeks to go to the election ?

    If you are a longtime Labour Voter who Hates Corbyn but hates the Tories more how would you respond to an opinion poll
    • a) Before an election is called
    • b) Just after the election is called
    • c) Two week before the election is called when the Tories look like they are heading for a massive majority
    The answers are
    • Not Labour
    • Undecided
    • Labour
  • Brom said:

    hoping the guy dead was a terrorist shot by police.

    The Met shot him, confirmed. Eyewitness reports of man with a knife.
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Who the hell are all these Labour voters that emerge out of the woodwork with a few weeks to go to the election ?

    If you are a longtime Labour Voter who Hates Corbyn but hates the Tories more how would you respond to an opinion poll
    • a) Before an election is called
    • b) Just after the election is called
    • c) Two week before the election is called when the Tories look like they are heading for a massive majority
    The answers are
    • Not Labour
    • Undecided
    • Labour
    Has everyone forgotten Brexit?
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494
    Jason said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Who the hell are all these Labour voters that emerge out of the woodwork with a few weeks to go to the election ?

    If you are a longtime Labour Voter who Hates Corbyn but hates the Tories more how would you respond to an opinion poll
    • a) Before an election is called
    • b) Just after the election is called
    • c) Two week before the election is called when the Tories look like they are heading for a massive majority
    The answers are
    • Not Labour
    • Undecided
    • Labour
    Has everyone forgotten Brexit?
    I think most people are forgetting this thread for the new one...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    A pox on incredibly useful spreadsheet creators who get the Constituency Names wrong.
    Two different spreadsheets, one says - "Aberdeenshire West and Kincardine" the other "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" and many others

    Sigh, data muging is the worst part of data analysis.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Police shot and killed someone apparently.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,236
    Jason said:

    Has everyone forgotten Brexit?

    If only.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Police shot and killed someone apparently.

    Just seen that

    "brandishing a knife" according to reports

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    I take it the anti semitism complaints centre cant be culled in the labour cuts

    Great timing btw Labour

    Reminds us how spending too much always ends
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    That tweet contains a seriously defamatory statement.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    RobD said:

    Endillion said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Can I just point out that Labour as a radically left-wing party is still polling higher than Brown and Ed all achieved

    Brown spent 13 years living in Downing Street. Ed was facing a first term Tory-led government just a couple of years after Labour ran out of money.
    Labour did not run out of money.
    No, the country did because of the decisions made by Gordon Brown over a 13 year period.
    We never ran out of money - Gordon Brown nor Labour did not result in the UK running out of money. That's a complete lie.
    Tell that to Liam Byrne, then.
    I don't give a toss what that letter says, the UK did not run out of money.
    If it hadn't run out, why did it have to borrow loads off the gilt market?
    Which G7 Country had the lowest debt to GDP ratio in 2010


    Oh look it was the UK.

    9 years of Austerity and where do we stand now.

    Tories borrowed more in 9 years than all Lab Govts in the history of Lab Govts

    OH BUT WE HAD TO GIVR MILLIONAIRES A TAX CUT didnt we
  • 148grss said:

    Pulpstar said:

    148grss said:

    In hypothetical land, let's say there is another HP. What do we think the parties narratives are to claim legitimacy. Obvs Cons will go largest party and oppo will go with denied majority to sitting government, but on Brexit specifically, surely Johnson cannot again claim that Parliament is being undemocratic if they refuse to pass his deal? If the country, which has produces 2 HP in the last 3 elections, does the same, where do we go? And if a 2nd ref occurs without Labour being in government (say a Con minority government have it forced through with only oppo MPs votes), what happens then? Do we think Johnson's deal beats remain? Would Johnson accept Remain if it won? Or would he call on Corbyn to form a gov / resign to another Tory PM?

    If it's a Hung Parliament it will almost certainly be a Labour minority.
    That's simply not true.
    Yeah, I have to say I think if Tories get May numbers they will still try and govern. But they can't use the same talking points of zombie parliament and so on, so what they do, I have no idea. Unless the Tories just say "Fuck it" and call another GE until they get an answer they like.
    The next Parliament come what may won't be as much of a zombie Parliament as the last one as the dozens of MPs who'd quit their parties last term won't be back next term.
  • RobD said:

    Endillion said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Can I just point out that Labour as a radically left-wing party is still polling higher than Brown and Ed all achieved

    Brown spent 13 years living in Downing Street. Ed was facing a first term Tory-led government just a couple of years after Labour ran out of money.
    Labour did not run out of money.
    No, the country did because of the decisions made by Gordon Brown over a 13 year period.
    We never ran out of money - Gordon Brown nor Labour did not result in the UK running out of money. That's a complete lie.
    Tell that to Liam Byrne, then.
    I don't give a toss what that letter says, the UK did not run out of money.
    If it hadn't run out, why did it have to borrow loads off the gilt market?
    Which G7 Country had the lowest debt to GDP ratio in 2010


    Oh look it was the UK.

    9 years of Austerity and where do we stand now.

    Tories borrowed more in 9 years than all Lab Govts in the history of Lab Govts

    OH BUT WE HAD TO GIVR MILLIONAIRES A TAX CUT didnt we

    You forgot to add the legacy of Gordon Brown crashing the economy which resulted in austerity. Hopefully the next time Labour trashes the economy they get to clear up their own mess.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    DeClare said:

    nico67 said:

    The Tories really shouldn’t lose this election . They have a lot of the fundamentals in their favour with the Leave vote .

    Very few Tory Leavers will ever contemplate voting for Labour where as more Labour voters would switch the other way .

    Tory Remainers so far have been quite loyal to the party . So it’s down to that group and Labour Leavers which will dictate the outcome of the election.

    The BP standing down in those Tory seats has really harmed the Lib Dems . To not get a decent majority with so much in their favour the Tories really will have outdone May !

    The Tories won't actually LOSE the election, they are certain to wim most seats and 75% certain to gain an overall majority.
    A very large majority can lead to bad government especially with such a poor official opposition.
    A Tory majority of about 30 would mean that they can deliver Brexit, see off Corbyn and remove Boris in mid term if he buggers things up.
    The Labour party can get an electable leader and return to the days of New Labour, the far left will moan about that but where can they go?
    Hopefully the odious SNP will start to decline back to relative obscurity as well.
    Ha Ha Ha , clown of a Tory, no chance the SNP are declining sunshine. It is the lying toerags that will be declining.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    Stocky said:

    viewcode said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Who the hell are all these Labour voters that emerge out of the woodwork with a few weeks to go to the election ?

    Always the same.
    These next two weeks can't go quickly enough !

    In other news I've bought a new Telly.
    Excellent. Is it a nice telly?
    What did you do with the old one?
    I bought one as well, gave my grandson the old one. OLED thingymabob, excellent picture.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Who the hell are all these Labour voters that emerge out of the woodwork with a few weeks to go to the election ?

    Always the same.
    These next two weeks can't go quickly enough !

    In other news I've bought a new Telly.
    Hope you don't discover you've been had on your purchase on Black Friday. Should hate to think it was a Telly save-less......
    Hope you put your coat straight on after that one
  • RobD said:

    Endillion said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Can I just point out that Labour as a radically left-wing party is still polling higher than Brown and Ed all achieved

    Brown spent 13 years living in Downing Street. Ed was facing a first term Tory-led government just a couple of years after Labour ran out of money.
    Labour did not run out of money.
    No, the country did because of the decisions made by Gordon Brown over a 13 year period.
    We never ran out of money - Gordon Brown nor Labour did not result in the UK running out of money. That's a complete lie.
    Tell that to Liam Byrne, then.
    I don't give a toss what that letter says, the UK did not run out of money.
    If it hadn't run out, why did it have to borrow loads off the gilt market?
    Which G7 Country had the lowest debt to GDP ratio in 2010


    Oh look it was the UK.

    9 years of Austerity and where do we stand now.

    Tories borrowed more in 9 years than all Lab Govts in the history of Lab Govts

    Which proves that there wasn't any austerity.
This discussion has been closed.