Powell is wrong, No Deal and a hard border in Ireland would have made Scottish independence and a united Ireland more likely, the Boris Deal does not
The Boris deal introduces detailed and intrusive customs checks between two parts of the UK. If the Boris deal works, and those checks are seamless, then introducing such checks between Eng and Sco becomes a lot less scary and Scots Independence more likely. If they don't work...
The only polls giving Yes a majority in Scotland are in a No Deal scenario, avoid No Deal and it becomes less likely, though of course Boris and Westminster will block indyref2 for the foreseeable future anyway
Polls are not static. They react to circumstances. And you're making a very big assumption in saying that Boris will be in a position to block anything.
Of course he will and the DUP will still vote with the Tories to block any indyref2 even if they vote with the opposition against the Boris Deal
You've spent a week in NI and think you understand the DUP? You know nothing.
I understand they put the Union above all else and their supporters heritage is mostly Presbyterian Scottish and linked to the Orange Lodges of Glasgow etc
What do you think about BJ sending the letter?
I appreciate his signed letter sent opposing the extension, attached to his unsigned copy of the Benn Act
I thought you said he would not do it! He has left you high and dry...
He did not sign it no, he only signed his letter rejecting extension
He sent it though. You definitely said he wouldn’t send such a letter.
He didn't, he sent a copy of the Benn Act, the only letter he sent was a signed letter rejecting extension
Casuistry. He surrendered to the Surrender Act so he could get his Surrender Deal through.
He didn't, diehard Remainers have decided he did and are very smug today with how clever they were, Tories and Leavers though are clear he did not so they have achieved precisely zilch!
What is the latest front in the all our war against Diehard Remainers btw?
One of the most peculiar mental tics of nationalist supporters I've noticed is the complaint that broadcasters, commentators, and the general (English) public enthusiastically claim successful Scottish sportspeople as "British" when they're winning and disown them as "Scottish" when they lose. I have literally never seen an instance of anything so absurdly crass happening, but nevertheless I hear it often, from a variety of sources. Never an example given though. Gotta keep that burning resentment alive somehow I suppose.
Enjoyed Roland White`s article in Sunday Times (title: "too posh to putsch".
According to him, Remain protesters are a better class of protester compared to Leave protesters apparantly.
That, believe me, is true. I've experienced lots of both at College Green and can vouch for it. Some of those Leavers down there - you really wouldn't want to get too close.
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
When a decision put to a referendum has been made, you're not supposed to fairly reflect the divisions of the country. You're supposed to abide by the outcome.
It has been up to the Executive to put a solution to Parliament that respects the results of both the 2016 and 2017 votes. They have failed to do so constantly. The current “deal” does not given it actually increases the role of the CJEU in the internal affairs of the UK
AlastairMeeks said: "I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace."
As someone who was genuinely on the fence about remain/leave in 2016, and still am, and therefore not inflicted with Brexit Derangement Syndrome, I would say that the Labour Party win in the disgrace league. They say they want a deal, but will not support either of the deals put before them because they are Tory Party deals. If they had negotiated identical deals to May or Johnson they would be saying how great they are.
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
+1 MPs are correct to probe and question the merits of a deal. You would not venture into many contracts in life with the notion "lets get it done and work the detail out later". Often you hear stupid people on the TV articulate that view, the world does not work like that! As always I blame the Brexit supporting media for propagating misinformation and making Brexiteers impatient. They always go on about winning the 2016 vote but fail to understand that those who are not in agreement with their stupidity get dragged down with them....
Doesn't that last sentence apply to every general election? It doesn't seem to have stopped Governments from getting on with their own agendas in the past.
Some people say every GE is damage limitation and they choose the least worse option. I cannot think of a time outside of war where a Government inflicts a policy that makes everybody poorer relative to how they would be if an agenda is not implemented. A Tory Government for instance might see 2% GDP growth per year but a GE causes an election where a Labour Government replaces it. The economy still grows by 2% but the Government spends more, taxes more and redistributes more. Some will not like it, the fundamentals may shift a bit but the economy goes on to new heights. Brexit on the other hand just shafts the economy and everybody in it to varying degrees depending on how the UK leaves the EU. oh the rich will be alright and if they are like JRM, not only do they have a seat in Cabinet but also stand to gain financially from executing Brexit...
It strongly suggests that his prior career was significantly hampered by his dodgy hip (which would also do much to explain his at times somewhat grumpy demeanour).
It was a niggle for five years, but not a major problem - quite common with tennis players. Early/middle 2017 it became something he couldn't just handle with physio.
One of the most peculiar mental tics of nationalist supporters I've noticed is the complaint that broadcasters, commentators, and the general (English) public enthusiastically claim successful Scottish sportspeople as "British" when they're winning and disown them as "Scottish" when they lose. I have literally never seen an instance of anything so absurdly crass happening, but nevertheless I hear it often, from a variety of sources. Never an example given though. Gotta keep that burning resentment alive somehow I suppose.
Err.....Disagree.
I hate Scottish Nationalists more than anyone, but have definitely noticed that happened with Andy.
Was that with the spoken TV news/sports commentators Colemanballs types? I seem to recall it was - tdhe newspapers seem to have been better at that, to their credit, in view of the study adduced by DougSeal.
In my Danish newspaper today Brexit has a story on the front page - another chance to try and explain what, for Danes, is the comic structure of parliament and the bizarre problem of the inability of the UK to actually make a decision. This has come as a real surprise to Danes I know (family, friends, co-workers), and shaken their notion that the British and Danish are basically the same type of people.
Not a single opinion piece about brexit though - Denmark has moved on, brexit is done and now it is about a new package of workers' rights and the EU budget. On the radio today an exasperated politico said that the EU had already revisited a deal twice and spent too much time on the problem - seriously remainers, if the discourse in Denmark is that enough is enough don't bank on a long extension for things like referendums - I don't think remainer politicians and activists in the UK really get how fed up the other countries are with the UK.
This is not helped by the continuous assumption by remainer groups that debating the deal, changing it and extending the timescale is up to the UK and the EU don't want to be blamed for brexit and so will give an extension - no sane person will blame the EU for anything that results in a no-deal brexit - that is 100% on parliament.
Accords with my reading of the press in French and German. The Europeans want us out with the least further chaos. A bit like a formerly respected colleague or family member who has turned to drink, pees in the hallway and has become abusive. Brexit has shredded the British reputation internationally.
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
Agreed. It seems to be a minority view on here.
Really? I'd say it was the majority view on here, and a very niche, minority view in the country
If Remain had won 52 to 48, there would have been no concessions made to Leave because it was apparently close. Leave voters would have had to wait until 2020 to vote in a Leave inclined govt.
As it was, we had a GE in 2017 where Remain MPs posed as referendum result respecters, then voted against any form of leaving, then voted against having a vote when a deal that looked like passing was agreed,
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
When a decision put to a referendum has been made, you're not supposed to fairly reflect the divisions of the country. You're supposed to abide by the outcome.
Exactly. If that makes referendums a bad idea, so be it. But that's a different argument
One of the most peculiar mental tics of nationalist supporters I've noticed is the complaint that broadcasters, commentators, and the general (English) public enthusiastically claim successful Scottish sportspeople as "British" when they're winning and disown them as "Scottish" when they lose. I have literally never seen an instance of anything so absurdly crass happening, but nevertheless I hear it often, from a variety of sources. Never an example given though. Gotta keep that burning resentment alive somehow I suppose.
Err.....Disagree.
I hate Scottish Nationalists more than anyone, but have definitely noticed that happened with Andy.
Has Rupert Harrison got a seat to contest yet? He’s very impressive.
He is a former Osborne SPAD and Brexit sceptic so I doubt it, though he might have a chance in Cities of London and Westminster now Mark Field is stepping down if he fancies taking on Chuka
I think Chukka has a good chance of taking that seat now. Incumbency is worth several thousand votes, maybe Field can see the writing on the wall...
Indeed, I think Chuka could win it with Labour tactical votes and it is strongly Remain.
If Harrison does not get selected there though he will find in most Tory associations at the moment if they have a choice between a pro Boris and pro Brexit dustman and a diehard Remainer with an Oxbridge PhD and high flying career, they will pick the dustman given their current mood
Rupert isn’t a die hard Remainer (I know him quite well as he chairs a board I sit on)
FF43 said: " A bit like a formerly respected colleague or family member who has turned to drink, pees in the hallway and has become abusive. Brexit has shredded the British reputation internationally."
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
Agreed. It seems to be a minority view on here.
Really? I'd say it was the majority view on here, and a very niche, minority view in the country
If Remain had won 52 to 48, there would have been no concessions made to Leave because it was apparently close. Leave voters would have had to wait until 2020 to vote in a Leave inclined govt.
As it was, we had a GE in 2017 where Remain MPs posed as referendum result respecters, then voted against any form of leaving, then voted against having a vote when a deal that looked like passing was agreed,
The concessions to Leave (staying out of the Euro, Schengen etc) had been made for decades before 2016
AlastairMeeks said: "I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace."
As someone who was genuinely on the fence about remain/leave in 2016, and still am, and therefore not inflicted with Brexit Derangement Syndrome, I would say that the Labour Party win in the disgrace league. They say they want a deal, but will not support either of the deals put before them because they are Tory Party deals. If they had negotiated identical deals to May or Johnson they would be saying how great they are.
But both the deals are shit. You don't have to be a Labour supporter to realise that they are representing a fair chunk of the country, those who want a softer Brexit than what May served up. Opposing that deal was legitimate.
In my Danish newspaper today Brexit has a story on the front page - another chance to try and explain what, for Danes, is the comic structure of parliament and the bizarre problem of the inability of the UK to actually make a decision. This has come as a real surprise to Danes I know (family, friends, co-workers), and shaken their notion that the British and Danish are basically the same type of people.
Not a single opinion piece about brexit though - Denmark has moved on, brexit is done and now it is about a new package of workers' rights and the EU budget. On the radio today an exasperated politico said that the EU had already revisited a deal twice and spent too much time on the problem - seriously remainers, if the discourse in Denmark is that enough is enough don't bank on a long extension for things like referendums - I don't think remainer politicians and activists in the UK really get how fed up the other countries are with the UK.
This is not helped by the continuous assumption by remainer groups that debating the deal, changing it and extending the timescale is up to the UK and the EU don't want to be blamed for brexit and so will give an extension - no sane person will blame the EU for anything that results in a no-deal brexit - that is 100% on parliament.
Accords with my reading of the press in French and German. The Europeans want us out with the least further chaos. A bit like a formerly respected colleague or family member who has turned to drink, pees in the hallway and has become abusive. Brexit has shredded the British reputation internationally.
Also they despise Johnson.
Are you sure you aren't projecting? Despise is an awfully strong word to use to talk about the leader of a foreign country.
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
Agreed. It seems to be a minority view on here.
Really? I'd say it was the majority view on here, and a very niche, minority view in the country
If Remain had won 52 to 48, there would have been no concessions made to Leave because it was apparently close. Leave voters would have had to wait until 2020 to vote in a Leave inclined govt.
As it was, we had a GE in 2017 where Remain MPs posed as referendum result respecters, then voted against any form of leaving, then voted against having a vote when a deal that looked like passing was agreed,
The concessions to Leave (staying out of the Euro, Schengen etc) had been made for decades before 2016
Not really, most Remainers have never wanted those things either
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
Agreed. It seems to be a minority view on here.
Really? I'd say it was the majority view on here, and a very niche, minority view in the country
If Remain had won 52 to 48, there would have been no concessions made to Leave because it was apparently close. Leave voters would have had to wait until 2020 to vote in a Leave inclined govt.
As it was, we had a GE in 2017 where Remain MPs posed as referendum result respecters, then voted against any form of leaving, then voted against having a vote when a deal that looked like passing was agreed,
The concessions to Leave (staying out of the Euro, Schengen etc) had been made for decades before 2016
Shouldn't the concessions be made relative to the status quo. The hypothetical was it was 52/48 remain in an EU where we already have those opt outs.
One of the most peculiar mental tics of nationalist supporters I've noticed is the complaint that broadcasters, commentators, and the general (English) public enthusiastically claim successful Scottish sportspeople as "British" when they're winning and disown them as "Scottish" when they lose. I have literally never seen an instance of anything so absurdly crass happening, but nevertheless I hear it often, from a variety of sources. Never an example given though. Gotta keep that burning resentment alive somehow I suppose.
Err.....Disagree.
I hate Scottish Nationalists more than anyone, but have definitely noticed that happened with Andy.
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
+1 MPs are correct to probe and question the merits of a deal. You would not venture into many contracts in life with the notion "lets get it done and work the detail out later". Often you hear stupid people on the TV articulate that view, the world does not work like that! As always I blame the Brexit supporting media for propagating misinformation and making Brexiteers impatient. They always go on about winning the 2016 vote but fail to understand that those who are not in agreement with their stupidity get dragged down with them....
Doesn't that last sentence apply to every general election? It doesn't seem to have stopped Governments from getting on with their own agendas in the past.
Some people say every GE is damage limitation and they choose the least worse option. I cannot think of a time outside of war where a Government inflicts a policy that makes everybody poorer relative to how they would be if an agenda is not implemented. A Tory Government for instance might see 2% GDP growth per year but a GE causes an election where a Labour Government replaces it. The economy still grows by 2% but the Government spends more, taxes more and redistributes more. Some will not like it, the fundamentals may shift a bit but the economy goes on to new heights. Brexit on the other hand just shafts the economy and everybody in it to varying degrees depending on how the UK leaves the EU. oh the rich will be alright and if they are like JRM, not only do they have a seat in Cabinet but also stand to gain financially from executing Brexit...
Doesn't your last sentence contradict your second sentence?
In any case, this is all irrelevant. People have voted in elections for all sorts of policies that have impoverished themselves (and not just economically) but, until now, Parliament hasn't allowed that to be a reason for ignoring an electoral mandate.
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
When a decision put to a referendum has been made, you're not supposed to fairly reflect the divisions of the country. You're supposed to abide by the outcome.
Failure to abide by this means we have to have a million threads about how to go one-third PV and two-thirds FPTP
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
When a decision put to a referendum has been made, you're not supposed to fairly reflect the divisions of the country. You're supposed to abide by the outcome.
Says who? That sounds like a huge, bloviatory appeal to centuries of precedent, case law, theory and academic investigation of the great British tradition of referenda stretching all the way back to the first one of 1215. Where, actually, is your supposition derived from?
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
When a decision put to a referendum has been made, you're not supposed to fairly reflect the divisions of the country. You're supposed to abide by the outcome.
Exactly. If that makes referendums a bad idea, so be it. But that's a different argument
It may come as a surprise to you both but there are profound disagreements about what can come next.
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
Agreed. It seems to be a minority view on here.
Really? I'd say it was the majority view on here, and a very niche, minority view in the country
If Remain had won 52 to 48, there would have been no concessions made to Leave because it was apparently close. Leave voters would have had to wait until 2020 to vote in a Leave inclined govt.
As it was, we had a GE in 2017 where Remain MPs posed as referendum result respecters, then voted against any form of leaving, then voted against having a vote when a deal that looked like passing was agreed,
The concessions to Leave (staying out of the Euro, Schengen etc) had been made for decades before 2016
Not really, most Remainers have never wanted those things either
I hate Scottish Nationalists more than anyone, but have definitely noticed that happened with Andy. Hate?
Wow."
Hate is strong. I try not to hate anyone but I must confess to turning the TV sound down and looking away when Ian Blackford stands up to speak.
Well, Ian Blackford is an oaf. Astonishing how the SNP can have a leader of such calibre in Sturgeon and then such a crashing dullard like Blackford as their Westminster leader.
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
+1 MPs are correct to probe and question the merits of a deal. You would not venture into many contracts in life with the notion "lets get it done and work the detail out later". Often you hear stupid people on the TV articulate that view, the world does not work like that! As always I blame the Brexit supporting media for propagating misinformation and making Brexiteers impatient. They always go on about winning the 2016 vote but fail to understand that those who are not in agreement with their stupidity get dragged down with them....
Doesn't that last sentence apply to every general election? It doesn't seem to have stopped Governments from getting on with their own agendas in the past.
Some people say every GE is damage limitation and they choose the least worse option. I cannot think of a time outside of war where a Government inflicts a policy that makes everybody poorer relative to how they would be if an agenda is not implemented. A Tory Government for instance might see 2% GDP growth per year but a GE causes an election where a Labour Government replaces it. The economy still grows by 2% but the Government spends more, taxes more and redistributes more. Some will not like it, the fundamentals may shift a bit but the economy goes on to new heights. Brexit on the other hand just shafts the economy and everybody in it to varying degrees depending on how the UK leaves the EU. oh the rich will be alright and if they are like JRM, not only do they have a seat in Cabinet but also stand to gain financially from executing Brexit...
Doesn't your last sentence contradict your second sentence?
In any case, this is all irrelevant. People have voted in elections for all sorts of policies that have impoverished themselves (and not just economically) but, until now, Parliament hasn't allowed that to be a reason for ignoring an electoral mandate.
Plenty of people on here boast of how rich they are, and how much tax they pay, whilst telling us they vote for parties that make them financially worse off. All of a sudden its a stick to beat people with,
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
When a decision put to a referendum has been made, you're not supposed to fairly reflect the divisions of the country. You're supposed to abide by the outcome.
Where does an MPs individual mandate come from? A General Election, a manifesto, and their personal literature. MPs, with a tiny minority number of high profile exceptions, have fairly reflected those factors as, in turn, the manifestoes fairly reflected the fact that the referendum result was a Leave win.
Fundamentally, there is a substantial Brexit delivery majority in parliament, which has long superceded the fact that most MPs voted Remain. The failure of the executive has been not to recognise that the 2017 result required bringing together different pro-delivery factions with different visions of what an acceptable Brexit entailed.
The common theme seems to be that leadership from Cameron onwards knew only how to hector, not consensus build or persuade. The same hectoring tone of Project Fear has continued through the attempts to deliver Brexit.
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
Agreed. It seems to be a minority view on here.
Really? I'd say it was the majority view on here, and a very niche, minority view in the country
If Remain had won 52 to 48, there would have been no concessions made to Leave because it was apparently close. Leave voters would have had to wait until 2020 to vote in a Leave inclined govt.
As it was, we had a GE in 2017 where Remain MPs posed as referendum result respecters, then voted against any form of leaving, then voted against having a vote when a deal that looked like passing was agreed,
The concessions to Leave (staying out of the Euro, Schengen etc) had been made for decades before 2016
Not really, most Remainers have never wanted those things either
I hate Scottish Nationalists more than anyone, but have definitely noticed that happened with Andy. Hate?
Wow."
Hate is strong. I try not to hate anyone but I must confess to turning the TV sound down and looking away when Ian Blackford stands up to speak.
Well, Ian Blackford is an oaf. Astonishing how the SNP can have a leader of such calibre in Sturgeon and then such a crashing dullard like Blackford as their Westminster leader.
There is a persuasive argument that Sturgeon is actually a weak, ineffectual and dull leader who shines by comparison with other Scottish politicians.
Mind you, if Blackford cannot shine against Johnson and Corbyn...
We were very well regarded by the local population
We gave most of our land to the tenants - the theory was we didn’t have the cash to save them but at least they could die on their own land.
... it makes sense in an Irish context ..,
Genuinely impressed. Not many people would leap to the defence of the Irish landowning class for the way they treated their tenants during the potato famine.
In my Danish newspaper today Brexit has a story on the front page - another chance to try and explain what, for Danes, is the comic structure of parliament and the bizarre problem of the inability of the UK to actually make a decision. This has come as a real surprise to Danes I know (family, friends, co-workers), and shaken their notion that the British and Danish are basically the same type of people.
Not a single opinion piece about brexit though - Denmark has moved on, brexit is done and now it is about a new package of workers' rights and the EU budget. On the radio today an exasperated politico said that the EU had already revisited a deal twice and spent too much time on the problem - seriously remainers, if the discourse in Denmark is that enough is enough don't bank on a long extension for things like referendums - I don't think remainer politicians and activists in the UK really get how fed up the other countries are with the UK.
This is not helped by the continuous assumption by remainer groups that debating the deal, changing it and extending the timescale is up to the UK and the EU don't want to be blamed for brexit and so will give an extension - no sane person will blame the EU for anything that results in a no-deal brexit - that is 100% on parliament.
Accords with my reading of the press in French and German. The Europeans want us out with the least further chaos. A bit like a formerly respected colleague or family member who has turned to drink, pees in the hallway and has become abusive. Brexit has shredded the British reputation internationally.
Also they despise Johnson.
I'm getting a pitying distaste vibe, with a soupçon of shock at quite how British stereoptypes have dissolved like ash in a gale. It'd be like discovering Richard Todd was a blubbering milquetoast who shrieked at his makeup artist if they hadn't got the right shade of panstick for whichever role he was playing, I would never see The Dambusters in the same light again.
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
When a decision put to a referendum has been made, you're not supposed to fairly reflect the divisions of the country. You're supposed to abide by the outcome.
Says who? That sounds like a huge, bloviatory appeal to centuries of precedent, case law, theory and academic investigation of the great British tradition of referenda stretching all the way back to the first one of 1215. Where, actually, is your supposition derived from?
You're wasting your time with that one. He's like a radio you can never quite get into tune. He'll pop up, saying something that sounds like a mangled version of something that might make sense to drunken stroke victim and then disappears again. You'll get more sense pulling random tiles out of a Scrabble bag.
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
Agreed. It seems to be a minority view on here.
Really? I'd say it was the majority view on here, and a very niche, minority view in the country
If Remain had won 52 to 48, there would have been no concessions made to Leave because it was apparently close. Leave voters would have had to wait until 2020 to vote in a Leave inclined govt.
As it was, we had a GE in 2017 where Remain MPs posed as referendum result respecters, then voted against any form of leaving, then voted against having a vote when a deal that looked like passing was agreed,
The concessions to Leave (staying out of the Euro, Schengen etc) had been made for decades before 2016
How can they have been concessions when the UK was never in them ?
The shine has definitely started to come off Boris's deal. There was a mad panic yesterday and many were swept up in the moment. In the cold light of day, it's looking more like an ill-conceived and destabilizing hotchpotch whose only real purpose was to secure Boris some crazily sycophantic headlines. Sir Oliver is proving to be a wise old head. We need to consider these matters calmly.
Let's have an election and we can find out just how popular these stalling tactics really are, eh?
Sorry, but we can't have a general election every time the government sulks because it isn't getting its own way. Let parliament do its job. What's good for the career of Boris Johnson will just have to wait another day.
But.... that's exactly what happens. And happened in the past. Wilson in 1966, and again in 1974 (October). Hell, Heath went to the country in February 1974 when he still had a majority.
So, no, I think that's wrong. When the government so obviously loses its majority like this one has, then yes, we need a GE and FTPA excepted, usually the PM attempts to do just that.
Now Brexit is all consuming, but if it somehow wasn't an issue, and in this alt-Universe we had Cameron leading the Conservatives with only 288 MPs but two and a half years left to run, he wouldn't be trying daily for a GE (or else trying to form a coalition with another party)?
isam - out of interest, as someone who almost ran as a UKIP candidate is your weight now behind BXP or do you think Farage et al should get behind the Tories? (I`m assuming you no longer support UKIP.)
In my Danish newspaper today Brexit has a story on the front page - another chance to try and explain what, for Danes, is the comic structure of parliament and the bizarre problem of the inability of the UK to actually make a decision. This has come as a real surprise to Danes I know (family, friends, co-workers), and shaken their notion that the British and Danish are basically the same type of people.
Not a single opinion piece about brexit though - Denmark has moved on, brexit is done and now it is about a new package of workers' rights and the EU budget. On the radio today an exasperated politico said that the EU had already revisited a deal twice and spent too much time on the problem - seriously remainers, if the discourse in Denmark is that enough is enough don't bank on a long extension for things like referendums - I don't think remainer politicians and activists in the UK really get how fed up the other countries are with the UK.
This is not helped by the continuous assumption by remainer groups that debating the deal, changing it and extending the timescale is up to the UK and the EU don't want to be blamed for brexit and so will give an extension - no sane person will blame the EU for anything that results in a no-deal brexit - that is 100% on parliament.
Yes, even if you buy the excuse that the Lettwin amendment was all about an insurance policy against no deal, it relies on a big and questionable assumption that every country in the EU will be willing to play ball and extend yet again. As such, it is an option fraught with risk and the very opposite of an insurance policy against no deal.
However, if the EU are determined that the UK should without further delay under the terms of the withdrawal agreement, all they have to do is to let us go out without a deal on 31st October. In that case within a few days I suspect that our Remainer parliament would have a sudden change of heart and vote through Johnson's deal by a substantial majority.
isam - out of interest, as someone who almost ran as a UKIP candidate is your weight now behind BXP or do you think Farage et al should get behind the Tories? (I`m assuming you no longer support UKIP.)
I think Farage et al should support the best chance of us getting out of the EU, which is Boris and his deal (and was previously May and hers). I really don't understand why he thinks it matters what his view on any deal is.
I have never said anything else than we should leave once an agreement between our PM and the EU is done, parliament shouldn't have a say, and if they did, it should be ceremonial.
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
Agreed. It seems to be a minority view on here.
Really? I'd say it was the majority view on here, and a very niche, minority view in the country
If Remain had won 52 to 48, there would have been no concessions made to Leave because it was apparently close. Leave voters would have had to wait until 2020 to vote in a Leave inclined govt.
As it was, we had a GE in 2017 where Remain MPs posed as referendum result respecters, then voted against any form of leaving, then voted against having a vote when a deal that looked like passing was agreed,
The concessions to Leave (staying out of the Euro, Schengen etc) had been made for decades before 2016
Not really, most Remainers have never wanted those things either
I hate Scottish Nationalists more than anyone, but have definitely noticed that happened with Andy. Hate?
Wow."
Hate is strong. I try not to hate anyone but I must confess to turning the TV sound down and looking away when Ian Blackford stands up to speak.
Well, Ian Blackford is an oaf. Astonishing how the SNP can have a leader of such calibre in Sturgeon and then such a crashing dullard like Blackford as their Westminster leader.
There is a persuasive argument that Sturgeon is actually a weak, ineffectual and dull leader who shines by comparison with other Scottish politicians.
Mind you, if Blackford cannot shine against Johnson and Corbyn...
The forum that most interests me in that respect is the broadcast interview. I've watched a few of Sturgeon being interviewed, and I'm continually impressed by her grasp of policy, her ability to talk straight to a subject and to pick at the assumptions behind a question. There are many politicians, some of whom I support in terms of policy, who are crap in front of the camera because they don't have that forensic grasp of their mandate or they lack the calm wit to deal with a tricky question. See also Tony Blair and, to some extent, Nigel Farage.
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
Agreed. It seems to be a minority view on here.
Really? I'd say it was the majority view on here, and a very niche, minority view in the country
If Remain had won 52 to 48, there would have been no concessions made to Leave because it was apparently close. Leave voters would have had to wait until 2020 to vote in a Leave inclined govt.
As it was, we had a GE in 2017 where Remain MPs posed as referendum result respecters, then voted against any form of leaving, then voted against having a vote when a deal that looked like passing was agreed,
Ish.
Leave, as we have seen, is an entirely new settlement, relationship, and laws even. It isn't that easy to conjure those up in half a tick. And as we are seeing, Labour thinks they could do it better than three Conservatives. So plenty to disagree about.
Remain would largely have been situation no change and on we would have gone, albeit the political debate would have continued apace.
In my Danish newspaper today Brexit has a story on the front page - another chance to try and explain what, for Danes, is the comic structure of parliament and the bizarre problem of the inability of the UK to actually make a decision. This has come as a real surprise to Danes I know (family, friends, co-workers), and shaken their notion that the British and Danish are basically the same type of people.
Not a single opinion piece about brexit though - Denmark has moved on, brexit is done and now it is about a new package of workers' rights and the EU budget. On the radio today an exasperated politico said that the EU had already revisited a deal twice and spent too much time on the problem - seriously remainers, if the discourse in Denmark is that enough is enough don't bank on a long extension for things like referendums - I don't think remainer politicians and activists in the UK really get how fed up the other countries are with the UK.
This is not helped by the continuous assumption by remainer groups that debating the deal, changing it and extending the timescale is up to the UK and the EU don't want to be blamed for brexit and so will give an extension - no sane person will blame the EU for anything that results in a no-deal brexit - that is 100% on parliament.
Accords with my reading of the press in French and German. The Europeans want us out with the least further chaos. A bit like a formerly respected colleague or family member who has turned to drink, pees in the hallway and has become abusive. Brexit has shredded the British reputation internationally.
Also they despise Johnson.
Are you sure you aren't projecting? Despise is an awfully strong word to use to talk about the leader of a foreign country.
They don't write, "we despise Boris Johnson" obviously. But as an example, his refusal to sign the letter doesn't impress.
In my Danish newspaper today Brexit has a story on the front page - another chance to try and explain what, for Danes, is the comic structure of parliament and the bizarre problem of the inability of the UK to actually make a decision. This has come as a real surprise to Danes I know (family, friends, co-workers), and shaken their notion that the British and Danish are basically the same type of people.
Not a single opinion piece about brexit though - Denmark has moved on, brexit is done and now it is about a new package of workers' rights and the EU budget. On the radio today an exasperated politico said that the EU had already revisited a deal twice and spent too much time on the problem - seriously remainers, if the discourse in Denmark is that enough is enough don't bank on a long extension for things like referendums - I don't think remainer politicians and activists in the UK really get how fed up the other countries are with the UK.
This is not helped by the continuous assumption by remainer groups that debating the deal, changing it and extending the timescale is up to the UK and the EU don't want to be blamed for brexit and so will give an extension - no sane person will blame the EU for anything that results in a no-deal brexit - that is 100% on parliament.
Accords with my reading of the press in French and German. The Europeans want us out with the least further chaos. A bit like a formerly respected colleague or family member who has turned to drink, pees in the hallway and has become abusive. Brexit has shredded the British reputation internationally.
Also they despise Johnson.
Great post . Brilliant take on things . Yes the EU want the UK gone ASAP . A few countries still harbour hopes that the UK might change its mind but generally the feeling is please go .
I can totally understand the frustration , any extension offered though will be the final one .
I think the EU would be right to say look , we’ve done two deals that’s it . Make a decision either take the deal or revoke your choice .
Here’s a final extension , either a short technical one or a flexible longer one till next May. Sort yourselves out , enough is enough .
isam - out of interest, as someone who almost ran as a UKIP candidate is your weight now behind BXP or do you think Farage et al should get behind the Tories? (I`m assuming you no longer support UKIP.)
I think Farage et al should support the best chance of us getting out of the EU, which is Boris and his deal (and was previously May and hers). I really don't understand why he thinks it matters what his view on any deal is.
I have never said anything else than we should leave once an agreement between our PM and the EU is done, parliament shouldn't have a say, and if they did, it should be ceremonial.
By taking this position are you content to refrain from criticising the deal at a later date if it emerges that it wasn't what you thought you were getting?
isam said: "I have never said anything else than we should leave once an agreement between our PM and the EU is done, parliament shouldn't have a say, and if they did, it should be ceremonial."
Yes, Gina Miller 1 has certainly caused a lot of problems. Representative democracy to Direct democracy to representative democracy is clearly problematic.
Whilst I dislike referenda intensely if you go down the direct democracy route you surely have to stick with it.
In my Danish newspaper today Brexit has a story on the front page - another chance to try and explain what, for Danes, is the comic structure of parliament and the bizarre problem of the inability of the UK to actually make a decision. This has come as a real surprise to Danes I know (family, friends, co-workers), and shaken their notion that the British and Danish are basically the same type of people.
Not a single opinion piece about brexit though - Denmark has moved on, brexit is done and now it is about a new package of workers' rights and the EU budget. On the radio today an exasperated politico said that the EU had already revisited a deal twice and spent too much time on the problem - seriously remainers, if the discourse in Denmark is that enough is enough don't bank on a long extension for things like referendums - I don't think remainer politicians and activists in the UK really get how fed up the other countries are with the UK.
This is not helped by the continuous assumption by remainer groups that debating the deal, changing it and extending the timescale is up to the UK and the EU don't want to be blamed for brexit and so will give an extension - no sane person will blame the EU for anything that results in a no-deal brexit - that is 100% on parliament.
Accords with my reading of the press in French and German. The Europeans want us out with the least further chaos. A bit like a formerly respected colleague or family member who has turned to drink, pees in the hallway and has become abusive. Brexit has shredded the British reputation internationally.
Also they despise Johnson.
Are you sure you aren't projecting? Despise is an awfully strong word to use to talk about the leader of a foreign country.
They don't write, "we despise Boris Johnson" obviously. But as an example, his refusal to sign the letter doesn't impress.
That's miles away from despise. Anyway, the cover letter for that was warm and cordial.
isam - out of interest, as someone who almost ran as a UKIP candidate is your weight now behind BXP or do you think Farage et al should get behind the Tories? (I`m assuming you no longer support UKIP.)
I think Farage et al should support the best chance of us getting out of the EU, which is Boris and his deal (and was previously May and hers). I really don't understand why he thinks it matters what his view on any deal is.
I have never said anything else than we should leave once an agreement between our PM and the EU is done, parliament shouldn't have a say, and if they did, it should be ceremonial.
By taking this position are you content to refrain from criticising the deal at a later date if it emerges that it wasn't what you thought you were getting?
Guess so, I have never really looked at any of the deals, and said I would have been happy for Cameron to have negotiated a Brexit so soft that it was virtually the same as Remain winning.
One of the most peculiar mental tics of nationalist supporters I've noticed is the complaint that broadcasters, commentators, and the general (English) public enthusiastically claim successful Scottish sportspeople as "British" when they're winning and disown them as "Scottish" when they lose. I have literally never seen an instance of anything so absurdly crass happening, but nevertheless I hear it often, from a variety of sources. Never an example given though. Gotta keep that burning resentment alive somehow I suppose.
I think it used to be a thing around the 80's/90's, but then became a bit of a comedy cliche and commentators stopped doing it. Off the top of my head it would cover the Scotland much-hyped campaign in 1978 football World Cup ("We're on the march with Ally's Army, We're going to the Argentine") which were British going out and Scottish coming back. Andy Murray straddles the divide: he used to be British-when-successful in his early career, but as it was a cliche at this point people stopped doing it and in his later career it's used only for humour.
isam - out of interest, as someone who almost ran as a UKIP candidate is your weight now behind BXP or do you think Farage et al should get behind the Tories? (I`m assuming you no longer support UKIP.)
I think Farage et al should support the best chance of us getting out of the EU, which is Boris and his deal (and was previously May and hers). I really don't understand why he thinks it matters what his view on any deal is.
I have never said anything else than we should leave once an agreement between our PM and the EU is done, parliament shouldn't have a say, and if they did, it should be ceremonial.
By taking this position are you content to refrain from criticising the deal at a later date if it emerges that it wasn't what you thought you were getting?
Guess so, I have never really looked at any of the deals, and said I would have been happy for Cameron to have negotiated a Brexit so soft that it was virtually the same as Remain winning.
I find it hard to follow your thinking because you're effectively saying that despite voting for Brexit because you wanted to end free movement, you'd be ok with free movement continuing if that's what the government negotiated.
In my Danish newspaper today Brexit has a story on the front page - another chance to try and explain what, for Danes, is the comic structure of parliament and the bizarre problem of the inability of the UK to actually make a decision. This has come as a real surprise to Danes I know (family, friends, co-workers), and shaken their notion that the British and Danish are basically the same type of people.
Not a single opinion piece about brexit though - Denmark has moved on, brexit is done and now it is about a new package of workers' rights and the EU budget. On the radio today an exasperated politico said that the EU had already revisited a deal twice and spent too much time on the problem - seriously remainers, if the discourse in Denmark is that enough is enough don't bank on a long extension for things like referendums - I don't think remainer politicians and activists in the UK really get how fed up the other countries are with the UK.
This is not helped by the continuous assumption by remainer groups that debating the deal, changing it and extending the timescale is up to the UK and the EU don't want to be blamed for brexit and so will give an extension - no sane person will blame the EU for anything that results in a no-deal brexit - that is 100% on parliament.
Jamen, hvilken avis?
Berlingske, jeg tror at det ikke er høflig at skrive dansk på en engelsk side - hvorfor skulle vi dog gøre det?
isam - out of interest, as someone who almost ran as a UKIP candidate is your weight now behind BXP or do you think Farage et al should get behind the Tories? (I`m assuming you no longer support UKIP.)
I think Farage et al should support the best chance of us getting out of the EU, which is Boris and his deal (and was previously May and hers). I really don't understand why he thinks it matters what his view on any deal is.
I have never said anything else than we should leave once an agreement between our PM and the EU is done, parliament shouldn't have a say, and if they did, it should be ceremonial.
By taking this position are you content to refrain from criticising the deal at a later date if it emerges that it wasn't what you thought you were getting?
Guess so, I have never really looked at any of the deals, and said I would have been happy for Cameron to have negotiated a Brexit so soft that it was virtually the same as Remain winning.
I find it hard to follow your thinking because you're effectively saying that despite voting for Brexit because you wanted to end free movement, you'd be ok with free movement continuing if that's what the government negotiated.
Well it cant be that hard to follow, because that is exactly what I am saying
isam - out of interest, as someone who almost ran as a UKIP candidate is your weight now behind BXP or do you think Farage et al should get behind the Tories? (I`m assuming you no longer support UKIP.)
I think Farage et al should support the best chance of us getting out of the EU, which is Boris and his deal (and was previously May and hers). I really don't understand why he thinks it matters what his view on any deal is.
I have never said anything else than we should leave once an agreement between our PM and the EU is done, parliament shouldn't have a say, and if they did, it should be ceremonial.
So if a PM had agreed to a deal which kept FoM, membership of the SM and CU but outside the political structures of the EU ie formally outside the EU you’d have been fine with that, would you?
I have sent emails to three Labour MPs re-earlier discussion. Interested to see whether I receive a reply.
You can't be serious.
If he is serious, having just checked out the discussion in question he’ll be pretty damn lucky if the reply doesn’t involve a summons for a breach of section 27.1 of the Malicious Communications Act.
What would you suggest was malicious about my comments? In no way was I threatening anyone but simply expressing an opinion and relating it to earlier historical events.
isam - out of interest, as someone who almost ran as a UKIP candidate is your weight now behind BXP or do you think Farage et al should get behind the Tories? (I`m assuming you no longer support UKIP.)
I think Farage et al should support the best chance of us getting out of the EU, which is Boris and his deal (and was previously May and hers). I really don't understand why he thinks it matters what his view on any deal is.
I have never said anything else than we should leave once an agreement between our PM and the EU is done, parliament shouldn't have a say, and if they did, it should be ceremonial.
So if a PM had agreed to a deal which kept FoM, membership of the SM and CU but outside the political structures of the EU ie formally outside the EU you’d have been fine with that, would you?
I have sent emails to three Labour MPs re-earlier discussion. Interested to see whether I receive a reply.
You can't be serious.
If he is serious, having just checked out the discussion in question he’ll be pretty damn lucky if the reply doesn’t involve a summons for a breach of section 27.1 of the Malicious Communications Act.
What would you suggest was malicious about my comments? In no way was I threatening anyone but simply expressing an opinion and relating it to earlier historical events.
If you compared a Labour MP to a Jew voting for Hitler, that certainly comes under ‘grossly offensive’ and likely to cause distress and that is the threshold.
Let’s say the February deadline is correct it could actually mean they’ll just agree to what was requested in the letter which was to 31st January 2020 .
If they say it’s the final one then that means they want to stop a second vote and want the UK to not be able to stay in .
If Lewis took 10 seconds to read the piece he would see a) it's not agreed and b) Germany will push for a year delay if referendum pushed through
Politics is quite hard to call at the moment, but I'm fairly confident that we won't have another referendum before we've had another general election.
In my Danish newspaper today Brexit has a story on the front page - another chance to try and explain what, for Danes, is the comic structure of parliament and the bizarre problem of the inability of the UK to actually make a decision. This has come as a real surprise to Danes I know (family, friends, co-workers), and shaken their notion that the British and Danish are basically the same type of people.
Not a single opinion piece about brexit though - Denmark has moved on, brexit is done and now it is about a new package of workers' rights and the EU budget. On the radio today an exasperated politico said that the EU had already revisited a deal twice and spent too much time on the problem - seriously remainers, if the discourse in Denmark is that enough is enough don't bank on a long extension for things like referendums - I don't think remainer politicians and activists in the UK really get how fed up the other countries are with the UK.
This is not helped by the continuous assumption by remainer groups that debating the deal, changing it and extending the timescale is up to the UK and the EU don't want to be blamed for brexit and so will give an extension - no sane person will blame the EU for anything that results in a no-deal brexit - that is 100% on parliament.
Accords with my reading of the press in French and German. The Europeans want us out with the least further chaos. A bit like a formerly respected colleague or family member who has turned to drink, pees in the hallway and has become abusive. Brexit has shredded the British reputation internationally.
Also they despise Johnson.
Are you sure you aren't projecting? Despise is an awfully strong word to use to talk about the leader of a foreign country.
They don't write, "we despise Boris Johnson" obviously. But as an example, his refusal to sign the letter doesn't impress.
That's miles away from despise. Anyway, the cover letter for that was warm and cordial.
I don't think that's the point. Euro journalists and politicos read the British press and report on UK government activities. The warm and cordial cover letter wasn't highlighted by the Cummings-Johnson spin. Instead the well publicised withholding of his signature comes across as childish and disrespectful.
Sky saying if the end of Feb 2020 is the extension then there has to be a deal or GE and it puts pressure on Corbyn to call one that labour do not want
If true this changes the dynamic next week, pass the deal or face the virtual certainty of defeat in a GE
How many labour mps will be for the deal now and will they be whipped against
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
When a decision put to a referendum has been made, you're not supposed to fairly reflect the divisions of the country. You're supposed to abide by the outcome.
Exactly. If that makes referendums a bad idea, so be it. But that's a different argument
isam - out of interest, as someone who almost ran as a UKIP candidate is your weight now behind BXP or do you think Farage et al should get behind the Tories? (I`m assuming you no longer support UKIP.)
I think Farage et al should support the best chance of us getting out of the EU, which is Boris and his deal (and was previously May and hers). I really don't understand why he thinks it matters what his view on any deal is.
I have never said anything else than we should leave once an agreement between our PM and the EU is done, parliament shouldn't have a say, and if they did, it should be ceremonial.
So if a PM had agreed to a deal which kept FoM, membership of the SM and CU but outside the political structures of the EU ie formally outside the EU you’d have been fine with that, would you?
Yes, I just said so to WilliamGlenn.
And that would be acceptable but a deal whereby we remained formally within the EU but by a special derogation FoM (and any other aspect of EU membership you object to) permanently ceased to apply to us, would not?
Sky saying if the end of Feb 2020 is the extension then there has to be a deal or GE and it puts pressure on Corbyn to call one that labour do not want
If true this changes the dynamic next week, pass the deal or face the virtual certainty of defeat in a GE
How many labour mps will be for the deal now and will they be whipped against
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
When a decision put to a referendum has been made, you're not supposed to fairly reflect the divisions of the country. You're supposed to abide by the outcome.
Exactly. If that makes referendums a bad idea, so be it. But that's a different argument
isam - out of interest, as someone who almost ran as a UKIP candidate is your weight now behind BXP or do you think Farage et al should get behind the Tories? (I`m assuming you no longer support UKIP.)
I think Farage et al should support the best chance of us getting out of the EU, which is Boris and his deal (and was previously May and hers). I really don't understand why he thinks it matters what his view on any deal is.
I have never said anything else than we should leave once an agreement between our PM and the EU is done, parliament shouldn't have a say, and if they did, it should be ceremonial.
So if a PM had agreed to a deal which kept FoM, membership of the SM and CU but outside the political structures of the EU ie formally outside the EU you’d have been fine with that, would you?
Yes, I just said so to WilliamGlenn.
And that would be acceptable but a deal whereby we remained formally within the EU but by a special derogation FoM (and any other aspect of EU membership you object to) permanently ceased to apply to us, would not?
If we could have just opted out of FoM, I doubt I would have voted to Leave... in the referendum that wouldn't have happened
Sky saying if the end of Feb 2020 is the extension then there has to be a deal or GE and it puts pressure on Corbyn to call one that labour do not want
If true this changes the dynamic next week, pass the deal or face the virtual certainty of defeat in a GE
How many labour mps will be for the deal now and will they be whipped against
Intriguing
How do we get a GE, if Corbyn wont vote for it?
Sky imply the pressure would be very hard to resist. So if I was labour I would see the deal passes avoiding an immediate GE
Sky saying if the end of Feb 2020 is the extension then there has to be a deal or GE and it puts pressure on Corbyn to call one that labour do not want
If true this changes the dynamic next week, pass the deal or face the virtual certainty of defeat in a GE
How many labour mps will be for the deal now and will they be whipped against
Intriguing
The length of the extension isn’t the key thing it’s whether they say that’s the final one .
Labour are screwed whether the deal goes through or if there’s a further extension.
There are no good options for them only degrees of bad . The Lib Dems will make Labour pay for being the handmaidens of Brexit . Even if just 15 Labour MPs back the deal that’s the message they’ll go with aswell as Corbyns attitude to the EU .
The Lib Dems will have a clean slate . Everyone of their MPs is voting no to the deal .
isam - out of interest, as someone who almost ran as a UKIP candidate is your weight now behind BXP or do you think Farage et al should get behind the Tories? (I`m assuming you no longer support UKIP.)
I think Farage et al should support the best chance of us getting out of the EU, which is Boris and his deal (and was previously May and hers). I really don't understand why he thinks it matters what his view on any deal is.
I have never said anything else than we should leave once an agreement between our PM and the EU is done, parliament shouldn't have a say, and if they did, it should be ceremonial.
So if a PM had agreed to a deal which kept FoM, membership of the SM and CU but outside the political structures of the EU ie formally outside the EU you’d have been fine with that, would you?
Sky saying if the end of Feb 2020 is the extension then there has to be a deal or GE and it puts pressure on Corbyn to call one that labour do not want
If true this changes the dynamic next week, pass the deal or face the virtual certainty of defeat in a GE
How many labour mps will be for the deal now and will they be whipped against
Intriguing
How do we get a GE, if Corbyn wont vote for it?
The EU should stipulate that Parliament must pass a Benn Act Mark 2, this time to hold an election during the next 3 months if they want an extension.
Sky saying if the end of Feb 2020 is the extension then there has to be a deal or GE and it puts pressure on Corbyn to call one that labour do not want
If true this changes the dynamic next week, pass the deal or face the virtual certainty of defeat in a GE
How many labour mps will be for the deal now and will they be whipped against
Intriguing
How do we get a GE, if Corbyn wont vote for it?
Sky imply the pressure would be very hard to resist. So if I was labour I would see the deal passes avoiding an immediate GE
That won’t work. If Johnson sees good polling numbers he can put forward a simple one line bill . The SNP will back that as they want an election .
Sky saying if the end of Feb 2020 is the extension then there has to be a deal or GE and it puts pressure on Corbyn to call one that labour do not want
If true this changes the dynamic next week, pass the deal or face the virtual certainty of defeat in a GE
How many labour mps will be for the deal now and will they be whipped against
Intriguing
The length of the extension isn’t the key thing it’s whether they say that’s the final one .
Labour are screwed whether the deal goes through or if there’s a further extension.
There are no good options for them only degrees of bad . The Lib Dems will make Labour pay for being the handmaidens of Brexit . Even if just 15 Labour MPs back the deal that’s the message they’ll go with aswell as Corbyns attitude to the EU .
The Lib Dems will have a clean slate . Everyone of their MPs is voting no to the deal .
I agree they have a very clear USP and it should pay dividends
Let’s say the February deadline is correct it could actually mean they’ll just agree to what was requested in the letter which was to 31st January 2020 .
If they say it’s the final one then that means they want to stop a second vote and want the UK to not be able to stay in .
I think this is the case, can't see them randomly sticking just one extra month on the end
There will eventually be a reckoning and these 650 politicians embarrassing our country will be done away with.
Not a single MP has come out with any credit from this process. They have all been different shades of diabolical.
I completely disagree with this. MPs generally have wrestled well and honestly with the decisions they faced. They have fairly reflected the divisions in the country.
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace.
When a decision put to a referendum has been made, you're not supposed to fairly reflect the divisions of the country. You're supposed to abide by the outcome.
Exactly. If that makes referendums a bad idea, so be it. But that's a different argument
isam - out of interest, as someone who almost ran as a UKIP candidate is your weight now behind BXP or do you think Farage et al should get behind the Tories? (I`m assuming you no longer support UKIP.)
I think Farage et al should support the best chance of us getting out of the EU, which is Boris and his deal (and was previously May and hers). I really don't understand why he thinks it matters what his view on any deal is.
I have never said anything else than we should leave once an agreement between our PM and the EU is done, parliament shouldn't have a say, and if they did, it should be ceremonial.
So if a PM had agreed to a deal which kept FoM, membership of the SM and CU but outside the political structures of the EU ie formally outside the EU you’d have been fine with that, would you?
Yes, I just said so to WilliamGlenn.
And that would be acceptable but a deal whereby we remained formally within the EU but by a special derogation FoM (and any other aspect of EU membership you object to) permanently ceased to apply to us, would not?
If we could have just opted out of FoM, I doubt I would have voted to Leave... in the referendum that wouldn't have happened
But it's quite possible Brexit doesn't even mean opting out of FoM, in the end.
If we do leave the EU on Oct 31st with Boris's deal, but then stay in the transition for 20 years (in which everything, including immigration, stays the same), would you be happy with that?
I seriously don’t think anyone would fume if Sturgeon wore a pair of Saltire earrings, I’m a dripping wet metropolitan liberal, Diehard Remainer, European Federalist, supporter of Irish unification, happy with whatever course the Scots choose kinda guy - and even I have a pair of Union Jack cufflinks I wear occasionally. They were a Christmas present before anyone asks. I prefer my college cufflinks because I’m also a massive elitist and snob.
Sky saying if the end of Feb 2020 is the extension then there has to be a deal or GE and it puts pressure on Corbyn to call one that labour do not want
If true this changes the dynamic next week, pass the deal or face the virtual certainty of defeat in a GE
How many labour mps will be for the deal now and will they be whipped against
Intriguing
How do we get a GE, if Corbyn wont vote for it?
The EU should stipulate that Parliament must pass a Benn Act Mark 2, this time to hold an election during the next 3 months if they want an extension.
Then watch cowardly Corbyn sweat.
Just a point on protocol.
The EU will not direct the UK Parliament or interfere in any way but of course any date offered is defacto the same
I have sent emails to three Labour MPs re-earlier discussion. Interested to see whether I receive a reply.
You can't be serious.
If he is serious, having just checked out the discussion in question he’ll be pretty damn lucky if the reply doesn’t involve a summons for a breach of section 27.1 of the Malicious Communications Act.
What would you suggest was malicious about my comments? In no way was I threatening anyone but simply expressing an opinion and relating it to earlier historical events.
If you compared a Labour MP to a Jew voting for Hitler, that certainly comes under ‘grossly offensive’ and likely to cause distress and that is the threshold.
Even that would be legitmate freedom of expression. As it happens, I referred to 'Jewish, Communist or Socialist members of the Reichstag voting for Hitler's March 1933 Enabling Act'. If I receive a leaflet or communication inviting me to support policies which return us to the days of Thatcher, I am likely to be offended - and could claim to suffer serious distress on account of it. Does that mean I can complain to the police?
Just had "notes" back on my movie script from a couple of top-end professional Hollywood script writers. They are employed by the company wanting to make the movie, just to get their take (and ensure they aren't being idiots in wanting to go ahead). So not inconsiderable trepidation on my part at what they might say...
I quote, from one:
"Overall I think is a wonderful script and in great shape to be made. The characters are vivid, fun and have quirky details that an audience will love.
"Captivating stunning funny opening"
This is a brilliant script. Bravo!"
and from the other:
"This was hilarious.
I am a sucker for a happy ending, especially when there's a funny story line and a romance at the centre of it."
Comments
The executive, however, has since the 2017 election been a complete disgrace."
As someone who was genuinely on the fence about remain/leave in 2016, and still am, and therefore not inflicted with Brexit Derangement Syndrome, I would say that the Labour Party win in the disgrace league. They say they want a deal, but will not support either of the deals put before them because they are Tory Party deals. If they had negotiated identical deals to May or Johnson they would be saying how great they are.
Also they despise Johnson.
If Remain had won 52 to 48, there would have been no concessions made to Leave because it was apparently close. Leave voters would have had to wait until 2020 to vote in a Leave inclined govt.
As it was, we had a GE in 2017 where Remain MPs posed as referendum result respecters, then voted against any form of leaving, then voted against having a vote when a deal that looked like passing was agreed,
Wow.
Ha, Ha - and sadly true.
Opposing that deal was legitimate.
"Err.....Disagree.
I hate Scottish Nationalists more than anyone, but have definitely noticed that happened with Andy.
Hate?
Wow."
Hate is strong. I try not to hate anyone but I must confess to turning the TV sound down and looking away when Ian Blackford stands up to speak.
In any case, this is all irrelevant. People have voted in elections for all sorts of policies that have impoverished themselves (and not just economically) but, until now, Parliament hasn't allowed that to be a reason for ignoring an electoral mandate.
Fundamentally, there is a substantial Brexit delivery majority in parliament, which has long superceded the fact that most MPs voted Remain. The failure of the executive has been not to recognise that the 2017 result required bringing together different pro-delivery factions with different visions of what an acceptable Brexit entailed.
The common theme seems to be that leadership from Cameron onwards knew only how to hector, not consensus build or persuade. The same hectoring tone of Project Fear has continued through the attempts to deliver Brexit.
Mind you, if Blackford cannot shine against Johnson and Corbyn...
Genuinely impressed. Not many people would leap to the defence of the Irish landowning class for the way they treated their tenants during the potato famine.
Wilson in 1966, and again in 1974 (October).
Hell, Heath went to the country in February 1974 when he still had a majority.
So, no, I think that's wrong. When the government so obviously loses its majority like this one has, then yes, we need a GE and FTPA excepted, usually the PM attempts to do just that.
Now Brexit is all consuming, but if it somehow wasn't an issue, and in this alt-Universe we had Cameron leading the Conservatives with only 288 MPs but two and a half years left to run, he wouldn't be trying daily for a GE (or else trying to form a coalition with another party)?
However, if the EU are determined that the UK should without further delay under the terms of the withdrawal agreement, all they have to do is to let us go out without a deal on 31st October. In that case within a few days I suspect that our Remainer parliament would have a sudden change of heart and vote through Johnson's deal by a substantial majority.
I have never said anything else than we should leave once an agreement between our PM and the EU is done, parliament shouldn't have a say, and if they did, it should be ceremonial.
There are many politicians, some of whom I support in terms of policy, who are crap in front of the camera because they don't have that forensic grasp of their mandate or they lack the calm wit to deal with a tricky question.
See also Tony Blair and, to some extent, Nigel Farage.
Liberals 31.9%
Conservatives 31.8%
NDP 18%
Greens 8%
BQ 7.1%
PPC 2.4%
Projected seats
Liberals 138
Conservatives 123
BQ 40
NDP 34
Greens 2
PPC1
Likeliest result therefore Trudeau loses his majority but remains leader of the largest party, just and forms a coalition with the NDP to stay PM
https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/
Leave, as we have seen, is an entirely new settlement, relationship, and laws even. It isn't that easy to conjure those up in half a tick. And as we are seeing, Labour thinks they could do it better than three Conservatives. So plenty to disagree about.
Remain would largely have been situation no change and on we would have gone, albeit the political debate would have continued apace.
I can totally understand the frustration , any extension offered though will be the final one .
I think the EU would be right to say look , we’ve done two deals that’s it . Make a decision either take the deal or revoke your choice .
Here’s a final extension , either a short technical one or a flexible longer one till next May. Sort yourselves out , enough is enough .
Yes, Gina Miller 1 has certainly caused a lot of problems. Representative democracy to Direct democracy to representative democracy is clearly problematic.
Whilst I dislike referenda intensely if you go down the direct democracy route you surely have to stick with it.
Germany will push for a year delay if referendum pushed through
Also Feb 2020 rules out a referendum
https://twitter.com/PadraigBelton/status/1180759376971419648
Nuance, as ever, is worth bearing in mind.
Edited extra bit: and with that, I must be off.
If they say it’s the final one then that means they want to stop a second vote and want the UK to not be able to stay in .
https://twitter.com/bobobalti/status/1185675642676924421?s=20
If true this changes the dynamic next week, pass the deal or face the virtual certainty of defeat in a GE
How many labour mps will be for the deal now and will they be whipped against
Intriguing
'SNP MPs wear the little white rose of fascist gesture politics'
https://tinyurl.com/pxtouzw
Labour are screwed whether the deal goes through or if there’s a further extension.
There are no good options for them only degrees of bad . The Lib Dems will make Labour pay for being the handmaidens of Brexit . Even if just 15 Labour MPs back the deal that’s the message they’ll go with aswell as Corbyns attitude to the EU .
The Lib Dems will have a clean slate . Everyone of their MPs is voting no to the deal .
Then watch cowardly Corbyn sweat.
Although admittedly he has had things for Germans in the past...
And by the way you can still get British strawberries in Tesco for two quid or less.
If we do leave the EU on Oct 31st with Boris's deal, but then stay in the transition for 20 years (in which everything, including immigration, stays the same), would you be happy with that?
The EU will not direct the UK Parliament or interfere in any way but of course any date offered is defacto the same
If I receive a leaflet or communication inviting me to support policies which return us to the days of Thatcher, I am likely to be offended - and could claim to suffer serious distress on account of it. Does that mean I can complain to the police?
I quote, from one:
"Overall I think is a wonderful script and in great shape to be made. The characters are vivid, fun and have quirky details that an audience will love.
"Captivating stunning funny opening"
This is a brilliant script. Bravo!"
and from the other:
"This was hilarious.
I am a sucker for a happy ending, especially when there's a funny story line and a romance at the centre of it."
I'll take that!