LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
By the way, Boris should promise the DUP a bridge in the next Tory manifesto.
"Boris" "promise"
You see the problem with your suggestion?
It is reported that Boris made the DUP a promise last Tuesday. He then went back on it the following day.
Oddly enough, the DUP do not trust him anymore and, judging by the Letwin Bill, most of Parliament does not trust him either.
This is the insane point we have reached. We have a PM who nobody trusts and who has failed to get any legislation through Parliament in two months. Any other PM would have resigned in shame and embarrassment or been forced out by the Party.
Instead, they tolerate this buffoon and his circus troop of monkeys and that might be insulting to monkeys in general because they at least serve a purpose.
Perhaps if the opposition were not craven cowards they could seek to remove him via a VONC and an election. If he's as bad as you say, it should be easy for them to win, right?
The infighting among the Brexiteers will be spectacular if this goes through. To the DUP, revocation is preferable to a border down the Irish Sea, but to some of the ERG, revocation is preferable to a customs union.
The parliamentary swamp needs draining and quickly.
The vengeance wrought on MPs at the next GE is going to be biblical.
No, it's really not. Most current MPs will be re-elected.
Most is 325 plus but I would expect many to lose their seats
So would I. And quite a few have already said they are not standing again.
But anyone expecting this current set of MPs to be sent packing en masse is in for a disappointment.
Oh, I'd like at least some of them to be re-elected, just so they can be left to sit impotently in the chamber and watch what a Conservative majority government manages to ram through without a thought for their pettifogging obstructionism
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
The government has plenty of power that doesn't require Parliament. I wonder what they could achieve if they simply set out each day to piss off the opposition parties so completely that they would have a simple choice: agree to an election or be exposed as devoid of self-respect.
The parliamentary swamp needs draining and quickly.
The vengeance wrought on MPs at the next GE is going to be biblical.
No, it's really not. Most current MPs will be re-elected.
Most is 325 plus but I would expect many to lose their seats
So would I. And quite a few have already said they are not standing again.
But anyone expecting this current set of MPs to be sent packing en masse is in for a disappointment.
Oh, I'd like at least some of them to be re-elected, just so they can be left to sit impotently in the chamber and watch what a Conservative majority government manages to ram through without a thought for their pettifogging obstructionism
There’s no guarantee of a Tory majority.
There's no guarantee of anything in life. But I'm betting Boris would destroy Corbyn, and the hyperannuated election-dodger knows it.
The parliamentary swamp needs draining and quickly.
The vengeance wrought on MPs at the next GE is going to be biblical.
No, it's really not. Most current MPs will be re-elected.
Most is 325 plus but I would expect many to lose their seats
So would I. And quite a few have already said they are not standing again.
But anyone expecting this current set of MPs to be sent packing en masse is in for a disappointment.
Oh, I'd like at least some of them to be re-elected, just so they can be left to sit impotently in the chamber and watch what a Conservative majority government manages to ram through without a thought for their pettifogging obstructionism
There’s no guarantee of a Tory majority.
I agree and I think some on here need to be cautious
I of course want a majority conservative government and it may happen but it is far from assured. Too many moving parts at present
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
The government has plenty of power that doesn't require Parliament. I wonder what they could achieve if they simply set out each day to piss off the opposition parties so completely that they would have a simple choice: agree to an election or be exposed as devoid of self-respect.
The current govt appears to be completely void of self-respect so why would they worry about others doing the same?
Or do you really mean that they should agree to an election just because you desparately need one in the next 10 days?
Sammy Wilson said DUP didn't want a second referendum today.
A Customs Union amendment has a chance of getting a majority, but it would effectively be voting against the deal, which has been sold on more freedom on trade.
The parliamentary swamp needs draining and quickly.
The vengeance wrought on MPs at the next GE is going to be biblical.
No, it's really not. Most current MPs will be re-elected.
Most is 325 plus but I would expect many to lose their seats
So would I. And quite a few have already said they are not standing again.
But anyone expecting this current set of MPs to be sent packing en masse is in for a disappointment.
Oh, I'd like at least some of them to be re-elected, just so they can be left to sit impotently in the chamber and watch what a Conservative majority government manages to ram through without a thought for their pettifogging obstructionism
There’s no guarantee of a Tory majority.
We can always hope. It will be a long time before I vote for them again.
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
The government has plenty of power that doesn't require Parliament. I wonder what they could achieve if they simply set out each day to piss off the opposition parties so completely that they would have a simple choice: agree to an election or be exposed as devoid of self-respect.
The current govt appears to be completely void of self-respect so why would they worry about others doing the same?
Or do you really mean that they should agree to an election just because you desparately need one in the next 10 days?
I got you - they know they're too shit to win so they've devised a master plan to, er, keep Boris and the evil Tories in power indefinitely. Great plan!
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
My family are wholly pro the Union and have been even when we lived in Scotland and of course my wife is from NE Scotland
The idea my wife would have to show a passport to go home is totally unacceptable
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
Most of them are now unbearably incompetent. Social media is partly to blame: the running commentary style ‘stories’, that begin with words like ‘understand’ and ‘hearing’ would have never seen the light of day in the paper era, as they are mostly throwaway, transient stuff, or based on boasting from politicians with zero substance behind them.
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
The government has plenty of power that doesn't require Parliament. I wonder what they could achieve if they simply set out each day to piss off the opposition parties so completely that they would have a simple choice: agree to an election or be exposed as devoid of self-respect.
Any customs union amendment could be removed after a GE if the Tories win .
The risks to Johnson are more political than legal . To be blunt if the media scream Customs Union has been added and then we have an election the Brexit Party will scream betrayal , some of the public simply won’t understand that it can be removed and even if the Tories say it can will the message get through to everyone.
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
Most of them are now unbearably incompetent. Social media is partly to blame: the running commentary style ‘stories’, that begin with words like ‘understand’ and ‘hearing’ would have never seen the light of day in the paper era, as they are mostly throwaway, transient stuff, or based on boasting from politicians with zero substance behind them.
I mean, people go on about how American political journalism is shallow, but, from what I've seen, they seem to apply atleast a bit of critical analysis to whatever pronouncements politicians come out with. Unlike British ones.
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
My family are wholly pro the Union and have been even when we lived in Scotland and of course my wife is from NE Scotland
The idea my wife would have to show a passport to go home is totally unacceptable
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
My family are wholly pro the Union and have been even when we lived in Scotland and of course my wife is from NE Scotland
The idea my wife would have to show a passport to go home is totally unacceptable
The idea that British citizens would lose the freedom to live and work in 29 other european countries was unacceptable to many people too, but it happened.
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
Most of them are now unbearably incompetent. Social media is partly to blame: the running commentary style ‘stories’, that begin with words like ‘understand’ and ‘hearing’ would have never seen the light of day in the paper era, as they are mostly throwaway, transient stuff, or based on boasting from politicians with zero substance behind them.
I mean, people go on about how American political journalism is shallow, but, from what I've seen, they seem to apply atleast a bit of critical analysis to whatever pronouncements politicians come out with. Unlike British ones.
American journalism is markedly superior nowadays. Behind the glitz and the ‘breaking news’ and ‘it’s happening now’ nonsense, there are some serious journalists scrutinising what politicians say, rather than just repeating it.
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
The government has plenty of power that doesn't require Parliament. I wonder what they could achieve if they simply set out each day to piss off the opposition parties so completely that they would have a simple choice: agree to an election or be exposed as devoid of self-respect.
Boris has a sure way to an election... resign!
He will not put Corbyn in no 10
If the customs union amendment passes I expect Boris to lay a motion for a GE having obtained the extension from the EU and the SNP and Lib Dems will support him. Corbyn then has a decision to make .
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
My family are wholly pro the Union and have been even when we lived in Scotland and of course my wife is from NE Scotland
The idea my wife would have to show a passport to go home is totally unacceptable
Well, I've lived in another country, and really, it's not that bad.
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
My family are wholly pro the Union and have been even when we lived in Scotland and of course my wife is from NE Scotland
The idea my wife would have to show a passport to go home is totally unacceptable
So EU membership for all then?
Precisely. If British unionists could learn to think in terms of a larger union that was not dominated by England, it would solve the problem. We need *a* union but not *the* union.
We were assured this was a myth and part of Project Fear, but if you want to pay £6 for a punnet of strawberries that's your call.
How is a shortage now, before brexit, the fault of brexit?
Directly because the Brexit vote caused a fall in the pound that makes UK wages less attractive internationally
Indirectly because Brexit has made immigrants feel unwelcome. Most immigrants have choices and are choosing not to come to the UK in such large numbers.
We can make a number of remarks about this. a) You might say making immigrants unwelcome is the whole point of Brexit. It's a feature, not a bug. b) You don't need to Brexit to be horrible to foreigners. c) While this might reduce immigration, it isn't control in any real sense. The more marketable immigrants will stay away. Hence the lack of apple pickers.
Apple pickers are the 'more marketable immigrants' ???
Apple pickers ???
Who needs doctors or scientists or engineers when you can have an economy based on apple pickers.
It’s the incider track to success.
Pause.
Ah, my coat...
You've got to the core of the matter there!
You pipped me to it.
A lot of pippin' goin' on.....
And it all stemmed from a chance remark.
With the quality of these puns we should put on a Royal Gala performance.
Well I’m going to peel off and go to bed
Guardian says it is doe to a scheme ending in 2013 not being ramped back up.
Not Brexit !!!
'This year’s worker shortages are the latest in successive years of labour problems which began in 2013 when the UK government ended a seasonal workers visa scheme that enabled farmers to bring in pickers and packers from outside the EU.'
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
Most of them are now unbearably incompetent. Social media is partly to blame: the running commentary style ‘stories’, that begin with words like ‘understand’ and ‘hearing’ would have never seen the light of day in the paper era, as they are mostly throwaway, transient stuff, or based on boasting from politicians with zero substance behind them.
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
Most of them are now unbearably incompetent. Social media is partly to blame: the running commentary style ‘stories’, that begin with words like ‘understand’ and ‘hearing’ would have never seen the light of day in the paper era, as they are mostly throwaway, transient stuff, or based on boasting from politicians with zero substance behind them.
I mean, people go on about how American political journalism is shallow, but, from what I've seen, they seem to apply atleast a bit of critical analysis to whatever pronouncements politicians come out with. Unlike British ones.
American journalism is markedly superior nowadays. Behind the glitz and the ‘breaking news’ and ‘it’s happening now’ nonsense, there are some serious journalists scrutinising what politicians say, rather than just repeating it.
I think we tend to look at the awfulness of Fox News when we think of American journalism, but yes, most American media has much better fact checking than our own moronic press.
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
The government has plenty of power that doesn't require Parliament. I wonder what they could achieve if they simply set out each day to piss off the opposition parties so completely that they would have a simple choice: agree to an election or be exposed as devoid of self-respect.
Boris has a sure way to an election... resign!
He will not put Corbyn in no 10
If the customs union amendment passes I expect Boris to lay a motion for a GE having obtained the extension from the EU and the SNP and Lib Dems will support him. Corbyn then has a decision to make .
Is he frit or not
He's frit, so what? Boris will be left pursuing a Brexit deal he doesn't want
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
The government has plenty of power that doesn't require Parliament. I wonder what they could achieve if they simply set out each day to piss off the opposition parties so completely that they would have a simple choice: agree to an election or be exposed as devoid of self-respect.
The current govt appears to be completely void of self-respect so why would they worry about others doing the same?
Or do you really mean that they should agree to an election just because you desparately need one in the next 10 days?
I got you - they know they're too shit to win so they've devised a master plan to, er, keep Boris and the evil Tories in power indefinitely. Great plan!
Whatever.... it is not me or my party who want the election, so frankly I do not really care.
Spin it any way you like - this is a govt of incomptents unlike any previous.
Bercow stands down in 31st October, doesn’t he, and presumably returns to the backbenches. Not sure he’ll be a reliable pro-government vote. If he’s succeeded by a pro-Brexit Tory that could be significant.
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
The government has plenty of power that doesn't require Parliament. I wonder what they could achieve if they simply set out each day to piss off the opposition parties so completely that they would have a simple choice: agree to an election or be exposed as devoid of self-respect.
Boris has a sure way to an election... resign!
He will not put Corbyn in no 10
If the customs union amendment passes I expect Boris to lay a motion for a GE having obtained the extension from the EU and the SNP and Lib Dems will support him. Corbyn then has a decision to make .
Is he frit or not
He's frit, so what? Boris will be left pursuing a Brexit deal he doesn't want
Then he will lay an amendment to the FTA for a GE and as a simple majority is required he will receive that from the SNP and Lib Dems
If I was a labour mp tonight I would see the deal passes unamended and then fight thec election on domestic issues
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
My family are wholly pro the Union and have been even when we lived in Scotland and of course my wife is from NE Scotland
The idea my wife would have to show a passport to go home is totally unacceptable
So EU membership for all then?
Precisely. If British unionists could learn to think in terms of a larger union that was not dominated by England, it would solve the problem. We need *a* union but not *the* union.
That's my thinking. Something needs fixing about the current situation, and Brexit is only making it worse. I could -- could -- vote for independence if I lived in Scotland. But it isn't the only route to fixing the issues. I do think unionists need a plan B. Perhaps Gordon Brown's warm words on near-federalism should be transposed from the realm of hollow promises and into reality. Last time unionists rather winged it and got in a terrible panic at the last minute. This time the nationalist baseline is roughly on a par with the unionist one, so there is zero room for complacency. And yet, I see a lot of complacency still.
We were assured this was a myth and part of Project Fear, but if you want to pay £6 for a punnet of strawberries that's your call.
How is a shortage now, before brexit, the fault of brexit?
Directly because the Brexit vote caused a fall in the pound that makes UK wages less attractive internationally
Indirectly because Brexit has made immigrants feel unwelcome. Most immigrants have choices and are choosing not to come to the UK in such large numbers.
We can make a number of remarks about this. a) You might say making immigrants unwelcome is the whole point of Brexit. It's a feature, not a bug. b) You don't need to Brexit to be horrible to foreigners. c) While this might reduce immigration, it isn't control in any real sense. The more marketable immigrants will stay away. Hence the lack of apple pickers.
Apple pickers are the 'more marketable immigrants' ???
Apple pickers ???
Who needs doctors or scientists or engineers when you can have an economy based on apple pickers.
It’s the incider track to success.
Pause.
Ah, my coat...
You've got to the core of the matter there!
You pipped me to it.
A lot of pippin' goin' on.....
And it all stemmed from a chance remark.
With the quality of these puns we should put on a Royal Gala performance.
If there's one thing i'd put my house on after the next GE it would be a majority government scrapping the FTPA.
Isn't it harder than that? It can't just be repealed because it related to a prerogative power, so there would need to be new legislation to change the rules for when an election could be called.
Bercow stands down in 31st October, doesn’t he, and presumably returns to the backbenches. Not sure he’ll be a reliable pro-government vote. If he’s succeeded by a pro-Brexit Tory that could be significant.
Didn’t he say he’ll be taking the Chiltern Hundreds as soon as he steps down as Speaker?
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
Most of them are now unbearably incompetent. Social media is partly to blame: the running commentary style ‘stories’, that begin with words like ‘understand’ and ‘hearing’ would have never seen the light of day in the paper era, as they are mostly throwaway, transient stuff, or based on boasting from politicians with zero substance behind them.
I mean, people go on about how American political journalism is shallow, but, from what I've seen, they seem to apply atleast a bit of critical analysis to whatever pronouncements politicians come out with. Unlike British ones.
American journalism is markedly superior nowadays. Behind the glitz and the ‘breaking news’ and ‘it’s happening now’ nonsense, there are some serious journalists scrutinising what politicians say, rather than just repeating it.
I think we tend to look at the awfulness of Fox News when we think of American journalism, but yes, most American media has much better fact checking than our own moronic press.
The American press happily swallowed and repeated Barr's lies about the Mueller report and then said Democrats had a problem as it would be hard to change the narrative that the report exonerated Trump.
The American political media, especially the New York Times, is garbage. Obssed with making everything a horserace and in love with insider takes.
If we are not out on 31st October and an extension has kicked in there is no possible reason the public will buy for there not to be an election. There just has to be one.
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
The government has plenty of power that doesn't require Parliament. I wonder what they could achieve if they simply set out each day to piss off the opposition parties so completely that they would have a simple choice: agree to an election or be exposed as devoid of self-respect.
Boris has a sure way to an election... resign!
He will not put Corbyn in no 10
If the customs union amendment passes I expect Boris to lay a motion for a GE having obtained the extension from the EU and the SNP and Lib Dems will support him. Corbyn then has a decision to make .
Is he frit or not
He's frit, so what? Boris will be left pursuing a Brexit deal he doesn't want
Then he will lay an amendment to the FTA for a GE and as a simple majority is required he will receive that from the SNP and Lib Dems
If I was a labour mp tonight I would see the deal passes unamended and then fight thec election on domestic issues
I don't think an amendment like that would be ruled in order.
If there's one thing i'd put my house on after the next GE it would be a majority government scrapping the FTPA.
You won't though, will you?
I think it’s far more likely that prorogation is changed to require the consent of Parliament if it is longer than 7 days, after the recent fiasco.
The FTPA has its flaws but the basic premise is sound. The PM shouldn’t be able to call an election on a whim, and royal prerogatives - as we have so recently seen - are easily abused.
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
My family are wholly pro the Union and have been even when we lived in Scotland and of course my wife is from NE Scotland
The idea my wife would have to show a passport to go home is totally unacceptable
So EU membership for all then?
Precisely. If British unionists could learn to think in terms of a larger union that was not dominated by England, it would solve the problem. We need *a* union but not *the* union.
That's my thinking. Something needs fixing about the current situation, and Brexit is only making it worse. I could -- could -- vote for independence if I lived in Scotland. But it isn't the only route to fixing the issues. I do think unionists need a plan B. Perhaps Gordon Brown's warm words on near-federalism should be transposed from the realm of hollow promises and into reality. Last time unionists rather winged it and got in a terrible panic at the last minute. This time the nationalist baseline is roughly on a par with the unionist one, so there is zero room for complacency. And yet, I see a lot of complacency still.
We could let England secede from the United Kingdom and become independant and then it could have its precious Brexit.
If we are not out on 31st October and an extension has kicked in there is no possible reason the public will buy for there not to be an election. There just has to be one.
If Corbyn resigned, it would be a compelling narrative to say that leadership election should be sorted out first. Not a prediction, just a scenario.
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
The government has plenty of power that doesn't require Parliament. I wonder what they could achieve if they simply set out each day to piss off the opposition parties so completely that they would have a simple choice: agree to an election or be exposed as devoid of self-respect.
The current govt appears to be completely void of self-respect so why would they worry about others doing the same?
Or do you really mean that they should agree to an election just because you desparately need one in the next 10 days?
I got you - they know they're too shit to win so they've devised a master plan to, er, keep Boris and the evil Tories in power indefinitely. Great plan!
Whatever.... it is not me or my party who want the election, so frankly I do not really care.
Spin it any way you like - this is a govt of incomptents unlike any previous.
Cool - so the opposition is admitting that they're too shit to win, and will therefore deliberately keep a government they claim is incompetent and destructive in power. As long as we're all clear on that!
If there's one thing i'd put my house on after the next GE it would be a majority government scrapping the FTPA.
Isn't it harder than that? It can't just be repealed because it related to a prerogative power, so there would need to be new legislation to change the rules for when an election could be called.
If there's one thing i'd put my house on after the next GE it would be a majority government scrapping the FTPA.
Isn't it harder than that? It can't just be repealed because it related to a prerogative power, so there would need to be new legislation to change the rules for when an election could be called.
It could be something as basic as Parliament can be dissolved by order in council, then some procedural guff about the length of a Parliament.
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
The government has plenty of power that doesn't require Parliament. I wonder what they could achieve if they simply set out each day to piss off the opposition parties so completely that they would have a simple choice: agree to an election or be exposed as devoid of self-respect.
Boris has a sure way to an election... resign!
He will not put Corbyn in no 10
If the customs union amendment passes I expect Boris to lay a motion for a GE having obtained the extension from the EU and the SNP and Lib Dems will support him. Corbyn then has a decision to make .
Is he frit or not
He's frit, so what? Boris will be left pursuing a Brexit deal he doesn't want
Then he will lay an amendment to the FTA for a GE and as a simple majority is required he will receive that from the SNP and Lib Dems
If I was a labour mp tonight I would see the deal passes unamended and then fight thec election on domestic issues
I don't think an amendment like that would be ruled in order.
I'd be careful of assuming the DUP will not get into the tent. Whilst its hard to see exactly how, they are playing hardball but not taking a 100% get stuffed position.
There is an opportunity in the maelstrom for Northern Ireland that plays exactly into comfortable acceptance of the union amongst the population here that leaves Irish nationalism a long long way from getting its dream wish. That opportunity is most overtly economic but its also political, the more everything ticks along without disruption the more comfortable people here get with the constitutional status quo. There is plenty of evidence of that over 20 years when it comes to the core constitutional question.
The DUP are aware of that so they need to wring some stuff out of Johnson to get a route out. Their problem is working out what and Johnson's problem is delivering it.
That Sylvia Hermon is stating that there is unionist anger is probably a better sign of where its at amongst unionists. Her constituency has plenty of exactly the kind of soft, small u unionist types that nationalist advocates think somehow will change their tune one day and help tip the balance . If she is picking up signals its an indication that blood is still thicker than water.
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
My family are wholly pro the Union and have been even when we lived in Scotland and of course my wife is from NE Scotland
The idea my wife would have to show a passport to go home is totally unacceptable
So EU membership for all then?
Precisely. If British unionists could learn to think in terms of a larger union that was not dominated by England, it would solve the problem. We need *a* union but not *the* union.
That's my thinking. Something needs fixing about the current situation, and Brexit is only making it worse. I could -- could -- vote for independence if I lived in Scotland. But it isn't the only route to fixing the issues. I do think unionists need a plan B. Perhaps Gordon Brown's warm words on near-federalism should be transposed from the realm of hollow promises and into reality. Last time unionists rather winged it and got in a terrible panic at the last minute. This time the nationalist baseline is roughly on a par with the unionist one, so there is zero room for complacency. And yet, I see a lot of complacency still.
We could let England secede from the United Kingdom and become independant and then it could have its precious Brexit.
Yes, that would solve some problems. But England has never been needful to be free of the union. Politically, it's the exception rather than the rule that England fails to get what it wants due to non-English votes. It hasn't passed me by, the irony that this has suddenly become the case quite frequently these last few months. I've just been quietly enjoying it, though, cos I don't think it'll do much good to gloat about it.
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
My family are wholly pro the Union and have been even when we lived in Scotland and of course my wife is from NE Scotland
The idea my wife would have to show a passport to go home is totally unacceptable
So EU membership for all then?
Precisely. If British unionists could learn to think in terms of a larger union that was not dominated by England, it would solve the problem. We need *a* union but not *the* union.
That's my thinking. Something needs fixing about the current situation, and Brexit is only making it worse. I could -- could -- vote for independence if I lived in Scotland. But it isn't the only route to fixing the issues. I do think unionists need a plan B. Perhaps Gordon Brown's warm words on near-federalism should be transposed from the realm of hollow promises and into reality. Last time unionists rather winged it and got in a terrible panic at the last minute. This time the nationalist baseline is roughly on a par with the unionist one, so there is zero room for complacency. And yet, I see a lot of complacency still.
I think we should stop treating saving the union as the primary objective of any constitutional tinkering. Start from the premise that each nation should have its own sovereign parliament and then look at how to reconstitute the things that we need to do together in a more modern way. We may just find that there are ready made institutions for that purpose waiting for us in Brussels.
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
The government has plenty of power that doesn't require Parliament. I wonder what they could achieve if they simply set out each day to piss off the opposition parties so completely that they would have a simple choice: agree to an election or be exposed as devoid of self-respect.
Boris has a sure way to an election... resign!
He will not put Corbyn in no 10
If the customs union amendment passes I expect Boris to lay a motion for a GE having obtained the extension from the EU and the SNP and Lib Dems will support him. Corbyn then has a decision to make .
Is he frit or not
He's frit, so what? Boris will be left pursuing a Brexit deal he doesn't want
Then he will lay an amendment to the FTA for a GE and as a simple majority is required he will receive that from the SNP and Lib Dems
If I was a labour mp tonight I would see the deal passes unamended and then fight thec election on domestic issues
I don't think an amendment like that would be ruled in order.
Why
Unrelated to the substance of the bill. Contrary to the FTPA.
I'm not expert, but I think one of these reasons is sufficient. Happy to take guidance if I'm mistaken.
Doesn't matter who replaces Bercow - Govt worse off unless Bercow votes with Govt as backbencher.
Con + Lab will both be supplying 2 Speaker / Deputies. At the moment it's Con 1, Lab 2 and Bercow.
However Bercow may not become backbencher anyway - he may go to Lords. In which case, Con down 1 until by-election takes place (ie Bercow disappears, Con supply replacement to keep it at 2-2).
It never matters who is Speaker (unless someone ceases to be Speaker / Deputy and changes sides) - all that matters is it's 2-2. Problem is Bercow currently "counts" as Con, but he may not vote with Con if he returns to backbenches.
The DUP are aware of that so they need to wring some stuff out of Johnson to get a route out. Their problem is working out what and Johnson's problem is delivering it.
No. The DUP's problem is trusting Boris to stand by any promises he makes. He already demonstrated to them that he simply cannot be trusted, or did you miss last week's news?
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
The government has plenty of power that doesn't require Parliament. I wonder what they could achieve if they simply set out each day to piss off the opposition parties so completely that they would have a simple choice: agree to an election or be exposed as devoid of self-respect.
Boris has a sure way to an election... resign!
That's definitely not a sure way to an election, anything could happen up to and including Arlene Foster PM
There is an opportunity in the maelstrom for Northern Ireland that plays exactly into comfortable acceptance of the union amongst the population here that leaves Irish nationalism a long long way from getting its dream wish. That opportunity is most overtly economic but its also political, the more everything ticks along without disruption the more comfortable people here get with the constitutional status quo. There is plenty of evidence of that over 20 years when it comes to the core constitutional question.
Unionism in Northern Ireland needs to come to terms with the reality that there may not be a British state for very much longer.
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
The government has plenty of power that doesn't require Parliament. I wonder what they could achieve if they simply set out each day to piss off the opposition parties so completely that they would have a simple choice: agree to an election or be exposed as devoid of self-respect.
Boris has a sure way to an election... resign!
That's definitely not a sure way to an election, anything could happen up to and including Arlene Foster PM
Part of me wants to see this. Wouldn’t she have a majority of like -300?
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
My family are wholly pro the Union and have been even when we lived in Scotland and of course my wife is from NE Scotland
The idea my wife would have to show a passport to go home is totally unacceptable
So EU membership for all then?
Precisely. If British unionists could learn to think in terms of a larger union that was not dominated by England, it would solve the problem. We need *a* union but not *the* union.
That's my thinking. Something needs fixing about the current situation, and Brexit is only making it worse. I could -- could -- vote for independence if I lived in Scotland. But it isn't the only route to fixing the issues. I do think unionists need a plan B. Perhaps Gordon Brown's warm words on near-federalism should be transposed from the realm of hollow promises and into reality. Last time unionists rather winged it and got in a terrible panic at the last minute. This time the nationalist baseline is roughly on a par with the unionist one, so there is zero room for complacency. And yet, I see a lot of complacency still.
I think we should stop treating saving the union as the primary objective of any constitutional tinkering. Start from the premise that each nation should have its own sovereign parliament and then look at how to reconstitute the things that we need to do together in a more modern way. We may just find that there are ready made institutions for that purpose waiting for us in Brussels.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
My family are wholly pro the Union and have been even when we lived in Scotland and of course my wife is from NE Scotland
The idea my wife would have to show a passport to go home is totally unacceptable
So EU membership for all then?
Precisely. If British unionists could learn to think in terms of a larger union that was not dominated by England, it would solve the problem. We need *a* union but not *the* union.
That's my thinking. Something needs fixing about the current situation, and Brexit is only making it worse. I could -- could -- vote for independence if I lived in Scotland. But it isn't the only route to fixing the issues. I do think unionists need a plan B. Perhaps Gordon Brown's warm words on near-federalism should be transposed from the realm of hollow promises and into reality. Last time unionists rather winged it and got in a terrible panic at the last minute. This time the nationalist baseline is roughly on a par with the unionist one, so there is zero room for complacency. And yet, I see a lot of complacency still.
I think we should stop treating saving the union as the primary objective of any constitutional tinkering. Start from the premise that each nation should have its own sovereign parliament and then look at how to reconstitute the things that we need to do together in a more modern way. We may just find that there are ready made institutions for that purpose waiting for us in Brussels.
Agreed. The union has no intrinsic value for me, none at all. It's a practical benefit and massive pain in the backside at the same time. If it dies, I won't mourn. If it endures, I won't lose sleep. It's like Radio Two or something. I know it's there, I know it's kind of dreadful and compelling at the same time, but it's nowt to do with my life.
Cool - so the opposition is admitting that they're too shit to win, and will therefore deliberately keep a government they claim is incompetent and destructive in power. As long as we're all clear on that!
You make me laugh. Yes the Oppostion is complete sh*t but even they are not dumb enough to give you what you are begging for.
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
The government has plenty of power that doesn't require Parliament. I wonder what they could achieve if they simply set out each day to piss off the opposition parties so completely that they would have a simple choice: agree to an election or be exposed as devoid of self-respect.
Boris has a sure way to an election... resign!
He will not put Corbyn in no 10
If the customs union amendment passes I expect Boris to lay a motion for a GE having obtained the extension from the EU and the SNP and Lib Dems will support him. Corbyn then has a decision to make .
Is he frit or not
He's frit, so what? Boris will be left pursuing a Brexit deal he doesn't want
Then he will lay an amendment to the FTA for a GE and as a simple majority is required he will receive that from the SNP and Lib Dems
If I was a labour mp tonight I would see the deal passes unamended and then fight thec election on domestic issues
I don't think an amendment like that would be ruled in order.
Why
Unrelated to the substance of the bill. Contrary to the FTPA.
I'm not expert, but I think one of these reasons is sufficient. Happy to take guidance if I'm mistaken.
It is not connected to the bill
It would be a stand alone motionto amend the FPTA to allow a GE and it has been suggested on here on several occassions in the last few weeks
It would of course need HOL approval as well
However, I expect Boris would take the simpler route of asking the EU for an extension to hold a GE and that satifies the EU's requirement for a genuine reason
The EU then grant the extension for that purpose and Corbyn has nowhere to go but on his soap box
The DUP are aware of that so they need to wring some stuff out of Johnson to get a route out. Their problem is working out what and Johnson's problem is delivering it.
No. The DUP's problem is trusting Boris to stand by any promises he makes. He already demonstrated to them that he simply cannot be trusted, or did you miss last week's news?
Its politics. This is not about an individual right now.
Doesn't matter who replaces Bercow - Govt worse off unless Bercow votes with Govt as backbencher.
Con + Lab will both be supplying 2 Speaker / Deputies. At the moment it's Con 1, Lab 2 and Bercow.
However Bercow may not become backbencher anyway - he may go to Lords. In which case, Con down 1 until by-election takes place (ie Bercow disappears, Con supply replacement to keep it at 2-2).
It never matters who is Speaker (unless someone ceases to be Speaker / Deputy and changes sides) - all that matters is it's 2-2. Problem is Bercow currently "counts" as Con, but he may not vote with Con if he returns to backbenches.
He is not going to the Lords under this government
I'd be careful of assuming the DUP will not get into the tent. Whilst its hard to see exactly how, they are playing hardball but not taking a 100% get stuffed position.
There is an opportunity in the maelstrom for Northern Ireland that plays exactly into comfortable acceptance of the union amongst the population here that leaves Irish nationalism a long long way from getting its dream wish. That opportunity is most overtly economic but its also political, the more everything ticks along without disruption the more comfortable people here get with the constitutional status quo. There is plenty of evidence of that over 20 years when it comes to the core constitutional question.
The DUP are aware of that so they need to wring some stuff out of Johnson to get a route out. Their problem is working out what and Johnson's problem is delivering it.
That Sylvia Hermon is stating that there is unionist anger is probably a better sign of where its at amongst unionists. Her constituency has plenty of exactly the kind of soft, small u unionist types that nationalist advocates think somehow will change their tune one day and help tip the balance . If she is picking up signals its an indication that blood is still thicker than water.
Are you saying the DUP could come round to voting for the deal?
The DUP are aware of that so they need to wring some stuff out of Johnson to get a route out. Their problem is working out what and Johnson's problem is delivering it.
No. The DUP's problem is trusting Boris to stand by any promises he makes. He already demonstrated to them that he simply cannot be trusted, or did you miss last week's news?
Its politics. This is not about an individual right now.
This is all about Boris. He is the only game in town at the moment.
Any customs union amendment could be removed after a GE if the Tories win .
The risks to Johnson are more political than legal . To be blunt if the media scream Customs Union has been added and then we have an election the Brexit Party will scream betrayal , some of the public simply won’t understand that it can be removed and even if the Tories say it can will the message get through to everyone.
That is the key, and it is why I lean toward thinking Brexit still won't happen. All it takes is a few amendments the ERG and co cannot stomach and the plans are kaput, and it won't be hard to get a few of those past with all the opposition parties plus the occasional ex-con and independent to make up for the bare handful of totally committed Labour rebels.
Granted there's then the uncertainty of an election outcome, whenever one occurs, but this feels like the critical moment at last. Remain can definitely lose if Boris has the votes to defeat any non-trivial amendments, and while Leave can still find a way through if the non-trivial amendments pass, it becomes much much harder because he will have demonstrably failed in his aims.
Next big thing the programme motion I guess, but the timetable is still less important than actually overcoming the opposition efforts to wreck his deal.
I hope nobody else relies on you not losing your house. And that you do.
That's seems unnecessarily unpleasant, any reason?
Because I don't want the FTPA to be repealed. I admit I would have kept the thought to myself if I didn't also think you're an arsehole -- and you are an arsehole -- but that wasn't the reason.
The DUP are aware of that so they need to wring some stuff out of Johnson to get a route out. Their problem is working out what and Johnson's problem is delivering it.
No. The DUP's problem is trusting Boris to stand by any promises he makes. He already demonstrated to them that he simply cannot be trusted, or did you miss last week's news?
Its politics. This is not about an individual right now.
This is all about Boris. He is the only game in town at the moment.
During an election campaign that may be the case.
He has the presence, personality and ability to dominate. It’ll be the Boris show. Corbyn may find he runs out of oxygen. As May found out in 2017 when Corbyn could dominate.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
Why do you talk about Scotland in such a patrician way? Scotland can make its own decisions and doesn't have to worry about whether those decisions invalidate your worldview.
Tomorrow’s ruling by Bercow is now critical for what happens next .
If Bercow allows another vote then the UK is likely to leave by the 31 October because that removes the protection of the extension .
If Bercow doesn’t allow another MV because of the Letwin Amendment then it’s more likely the UK will leave after that point .
And what happens with the Programme motion , this is normally a mundane affair .
However that can be amended , Labour MPs wanting to vote for the deal but not part of the predictable 6 might support that.
Because the DUP are now determined to kill this deal they will vote for anything that can slow progress and expect them to also vote for what could be seen as wrecking amendments. Even if they don’t like what’s being proposed as long as the end goal could kill the deal they’ll support it .
Because I don't want the FTPA to be repealed. I admit I would have kept the thought to myself if I didn't also think you're an arsehole -- and you are an arsehole -- but that wasn't the reason.
Are you mistaking me for another poster? I can't recall having any interaction with you before.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
Why do you talk about Scotland in such a patrician way? Scotland can make its own decisions and doesn't have to worry about whether those decisions invalidate your worldview.
Not quite as much as you want to break the union
Scotland cannot hold a legitimate independent referendum without the UK government's approval
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
I don't think I'd follow you into calling either the UK or the EU "authoritarian". The UK is closer to it, and moving in that direction, but it's not there. The courts and the constitution have held up admirably.
I'd be careful of assuming the DUP will not get into the tent. Whilst its hard to see exactly how, they are playing hardball but not taking a 100% get stuffed position.
There is an opportunity in the maelstrom for Northern Ireland that plays exactly into comfortable acceptance of the union amongst the population here that leaves Irish nationalism a long long way from getting its dream wish. That opportunity is most overtly economic but its also political, the more everything ticks along without disruption the more comfortable people here get with the constitutional status quo. There is plenty of evidence of that over 20 years when it comes to the core constitutional question.
The DUP are aware of that so they need to wring some stuff out of Johnson to get a route out. Their problem is working out what and Johnson's problem is delivering it.
That Sylvia Hermon is stating that there is unionist anger is probably a better sign of where its at amongst unionists. Her constituency has plenty of exactly the kind of soft, small u unionist types that nationalist advocates think somehow will change their tune one day and help tip the balance . If she is picking up signals its an indication that blood is still thicker than water.
Are you saying the DUP could come round to voting for the deal?
They really like to get this over with, so they are open to making it work. The problem is how because its now an issue of principle, not on Johnson being a bit of a chancer, but on the concept of economic difference between NI and the rest of the UK. One person's economic separation increasing political separation is another person's special economic status enhancing NI that could only come from being in the Union. The difficulty is getting something to ease worries on the former so they can trumpet the latter since the so called Stormont lock proposed at the start was their control mechanism. That looks very difficult but don't bet that the DUP wouldn't be open to a way out.
They wanted to back the May deal but then found the Attorney General's advice on the backstop plus the likelihood that their erstwhile allies in the ERG wouldn't be going wholesale for it (i.e. it was likely to fall anyway), enough to stop them.
Agreed. The union has no intrinsic value for me, none at all. It's a practical benefit and massive pain in the backside at the same time. If it dies, I won't mourn. If it endures, I won't lose sleep. It's like Radio Two or something. I know it's there, I know it's kind of dreadful and compelling at the same time, but it's nowt to do with my life.
I am anti borders dividing people and therefore pro-EU and anti-Scottish Independence.
I'd be careful of assuming the DUP will not get into the tent. Whilst its hard to see exactly how, they are playing hardball but not taking a 100% get stuffed position.
There is an opportunity in the maelstrom for Northern Ireland that plays exactly into comfortable acceptance of the union amongst the population here that leaves Irish nationalism a long long way from getting its dream wish. That opportunity is most overtly economic but its also political, the more everything ticks along without disruption the more comfortable people here get with the constitutional status quo. There is plenty of evidence of that over 20 years when it comes to the core constitutional question.
The DUP are aware of that so they need to wring some stuff out of Johnson to get a route out. Their problem is working out what and Johnson's problem is delivering it.
That Sylvia Hermon is stating that there is unionist anger is probably a better sign of where its at amongst unionists. Her constituency has plenty of exactly the kind of soft, small u unionist types that nationalist advocates think somehow will change their tune one day and help tip the balance . If she is picking up signals its an indication that blood is still thicker than water.
I seem to recall you suggesting this kind of 'The DUP are looking for a route out of this' stuff before, and while I'm sure you know NI better than I do, I cannot help but reflect that this supposed looking for a route out has so far not manifested itself in any practical way, nor assisted any government in getting a Brexit deal through. Regardless of nasty Boris or nasty Theresa being to blame, I don't really understand what you think the DUP's motivations are that change that they seem to continually do exactly what they always say they'll do.
What difference does it make if they are just 'playing' hardball or looking for a 'route out'? Boris cannot move any direction with losing other votes and in any case cannot abandon his own deal now which is what they are demanding, they won't take a great big increase in money to NI as payment for this Brexit, so their playing hardball becomes true hardball pretty darn fast.
The only thing we can tell for certain is how much they enjoyed holding the whip hand over the Tories, and are relishing their chance to use that to punish Boris now for abandoning them because even with them he had no majority, so saw no reason not to throw them under the bus. Which means they seem almost certain to vote for any amendment that can wreck up Boris's plans, and aid a VONC if they cannot do that - what difference does it make to them?
It's as nico67 says, they will do anything to delay or wreck Boris's plans now. Another reason Brexit is probably sunk.
Because I don't want the FTPA to be repealed. I admit I would have kept the thought to myself if I didn't also think you're an arsehole -- and you are an arsehole -- but that wasn't the reason.
Are you mistaking me for another poster? I can't recall having any interaction with you before.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
I don't think I'd follow you into calling either the UK or the EU "authoritarian". The UK is closer to it, and moving in that direction, but it's not there. The courts and the constitution have held up admirably.
Both dictate to Scotland what they can and cannot do. And in both cases Scottish input into the process is (or in the case of Scotland within the EU would be) very limited. If they have the courage of their convictions to become independent - which I hope they do - then they would be mad to immediately give that up to the EU.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
Probably not worth doing this since you've had a lot of conversations like this here and you're still scratching your head but here goes.
The EU is a lot of things but it isn't authoritarian.
Small countries like the EU because they have influence in proportion to their size or greater, contrary to the british eurosceptic assumption that Angela Merkel must be in charge of everything. When it matters, they are able to call on the power of this much bigger entity, as we just saw in the negotiations with Ireland that's historically been kicked around by the British.
They would have more theoretical autonomy outside the EU, but less practical power, because in practice they'd end up having to adopt the EU's rules for everything that mattered in any case.
PS All the same things apply to Britain vs the EU, but to a smaller degree.
Cool - so the opposition is admitting that they're too shit to win, and will therefore deliberately keep a government they claim is incompetent and destructive in power. As long as we're all clear on that!
You make me laugh. Yes the Oppostion is complete sh*t but even they are not dumb enough to give you what you are begging for.
You go ahead and find the opposition's 100% inability to constitute an alternative government funny if you like. I find it abjectly pathetic.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
When you look at the way that Irish diplomacy has worked within the EU over Brexit it's easy to see why smaller countries really value EU membership.
To call it an authoritarian union is not the Irish experience.
Somewhat a special case, they used it as a way to pressure the UK. With the erosion of the veto, the voices of the individual countries matter a lot less.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
Why do you talk about Scotland in such a patrician way? Scotland can make its own decisions and doesn't have to worry about whether those decisions invalidate your worldview.
There is nothing patrician about my view of Scotland. I suspect that is your own bigotries coming to the fore. Of course you have long claimed that the days of the nation state are numbered and you welcome that. Thankfully it is view shared by very few other people which is why the number of nation states has been increasing rather than decreasing over the last few decades as these ridiculous artificial federations and unions break up.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
I don't think I'd follow you into calling either the UK or the EU "authoritarian". The UK is closer to it, and moving in that direction, but it's not there. The courts and the constitution have held up admirably.
Both dictate to Scotland what they can and cannot do.
I'm not Scottish, but I'm sorry, that's bollocks. An independent Scotland in the EU would have far more control of its own affairs than it currently has in the UK.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
Why do you talk about Scotland in such a patrician way? Scotland can make its own decisions and doesn't have to worry about whether those decisions invalidate your worldview.
Not quite as much as you want to break the union
Scotland cannot hold a legitimate independent referendum without the UK government's approval
If Scotland wants to hold another independence referendum then it would be suicidal for Westminster to refuse it. Nor should they be able to.
Comments
Right?
I of course want a majority conservative government and it may happen but it is far from assured. Too many moving parts at present
I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
Or do you really mean that they should agree to an election just because you desparately need one in the next 10 days?
The idea my wife would have to show a passport to go home is totally unacceptable
The risks to Johnson are more political than legal . To be blunt if the media scream Customs Union has been added and then we have an election the Brexit Party will scream betrayal , some of the public simply won’t understand that it can be removed and even if the Tories say it can will the message get through to everyone.
Once parliament rejects the deal Boris should drop the hammer on them and resign the government and block any replacement.
Let the voters gut out Labour at the GE.
If the customs union amendment passes I expect Boris to lay a motion for a GE having obtained the extension from the EU and the SNP and Lib Dems will support him. Corbyn then has a decision to make .
Is he frit or not
Not Brexit !!!
'This year’s worker shortages are the latest in successive years of labour problems which began in 2013 when the UK government ended a seasonal workers visa scheme that enabled farmers to bring in pickers and packers from outside the EU.'
;-)
That's what Theresa thought. If Boris was that confident, he could have done this months ago.
Spin it any way you like - this is a govt of incomptents unlike any previous.
If I was a labour mp tonight I would see the deal passes unamended and then fight thec election on domestic issues
The American political media, especially the New York Times, is garbage. Obssed with making everything a horserace and in love with insider takes.
The FTPA has its flaws but the basic premise is sound. The PM shouldn’t be able to call an election on a whim, and royal prerogatives - as we have so recently seen - are easily abused.
Not a prediction, just a scenario.
There is an opportunity in the maelstrom for Northern Ireland that plays exactly into comfortable acceptance of the union amongst the population here that leaves Irish nationalism a long long way from getting its dream wish. That opportunity is most overtly economic but its also political, the more everything ticks along without disruption the more comfortable people here get with the constitutional status quo. There is plenty of evidence of that over 20 years when it comes to the core constitutional question.
The DUP are aware of that so they need to wring some stuff out of Johnson to get a route out. Their problem is working out what and Johnson's problem is delivering it.
That Sylvia Hermon is stating that there is unionist anger is probably a better sign of where its at amongst unionists. Her constituency has plenty of exactly the kind of soft, small u unionist types that nationalist advocates think somehow will change their tune one day and help tip the balance . If she is picking up signals its an indication that blood is still thicker than water.
Contrary to the FTPA.
I'm not expert, but I think one of these reasons is sufficient. Happy to take guidance if I'm mistaken.
Con + Lab will both be supplying 2 Speaker / Deputies. At the moment it's Con 1, Lab 2 and Bercow.
However Bercow may not become backbencher anyway - he may go to Lords. In which case, Con down 1 until by-election takes place (ie Bercow disappears, Con supply replacement to keep it at 2-2).
It never matters who is Speaker (unless someone ceases to be Speaker / Deputy and changes sides) - all that matters is it's 2-2. Problem is Bercow currently "counts" as Con, but he may not vote with Con if he returns to backbenches.
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
It would be a stand alone motionto amend the FPTA to allow a GE and it has been suggested on here on several occassions in the last few weeks
It would of course need HOL approval as well
However, I expect Boris would take the simpler route of asking the EU for an extension to hold a GE and that satifies the EU's requirement for a genuine reason
The EU then grant the extension for that purpose and Corbyn has nowhere to go but on his soap box
They are happening in Iraq, Lebanon, France, and now Chile.
https://mobile.twitter.com/pinkitsvne/status/1185753431992143872
Granted there's then the uncertainty of an election outcome, whenever one occurs, but this feels like the critical moment at last. Remain can definitely lose if Boris has the votes to defeat any non-trivial amendments, and while Leave can still find a way through if the non-trivial amendments pass, it becomes much much harder because he will have demonstrably failed in his aims.
Next big thing the programme motion I guess, but the timetable is still less important than actually overcoming the opposition efforts to wreck his deal.
I admit I would have kept the thought to myself if I didn't also think you're an arsehole -- and you are an arsehole -- but that wasn't the reason.
He has the presence, personality and ability to dominate. It’ll be the Boris show. Corbyn may find he runs out of oxygen. As May found out in 2017 when Corbyn could dominate.
If Bercow allows another vote then the UK is likely to leave by the 31 October because that removes the protection of the extension .
If Bercow doesn’t allow another MV because of the Letwin Amendment then it’s more likely the UK will leave after that point .
And what happens with the Programme motion , this is normally a mundane affair .
However that can be amended , Labour MPs wanting to vote for the deal but not part of the predictable 6 might support that.
Because the DUP are now determined to kill this deal they will vote for anything that can slow progress and expect them to also vote for what could be seen as wrecking amendments. Even if they don’t like what’s being proposed as long as the end goal could kill the deal they’ll support it .
Scotland cannot hold a legitimate independent referendum without the UK government's approval
They wanted to back the May deal but then found the Attorney General's advice on the backstop plus the likelihood that their erstwhile allies in the ERG wouldn't be going wholesale for it (i.e. it was likely to fall anyway), enough to stop them.
What difference does it make if they are just 'playing' hardball or looking for a 'route out'? Boris cannot move any direction with losing other votes and in any case cannot abandon his own deal now which is what they are demanding, they won't take a great big increase in money to NI as payment for this Brexit, so their playing hardball becomes true hardball pretty darn fast.
The only thing we can tell for certain is how much they enjoyed holding the whip hand over the Tories, and are relishing their chance to use that to punish Boris now for abandoning them because even with them he had no majority, so saw no reason not to throw them under the bus. Which means they seem almost certain to vote for any amendment that can wreck up Boris's plans, and aid a VONC if they cannot do that - what difference does it make to them?
It's as nico67 says, they will do anything to delay or wreck Boris's plans now. Another reason Brexit is probably sunk.
He is a left wing journalists with connection to labour and wants the deal lost
Indeed of late Sky have been dreadful and ironically the BBC have been much more measured and professional
To call it an authoritarian union is not the Irish experience.
The EU is a lot of things but it isn't authoritarian.
Small countries like the EU because they have influence in proportion to their size or greater, contrary to the british eurosceptic assumption that Angela Merkel must be in charge of everything. When it matters, they are able to call on the power of this much bigger entity, as we just saw in the negotiations with Ireland that's historically been kicked around by the British.
They would have more theoretical autonomy outside the EU, but less practical power, because in practice they'd end up having to adopt the EU's rules for everything that mattered in any case.
PS All the same things apply to Britain vs the EU, but to a smaller degree.
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1185989844281020418?s=21