No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
I don't think I'd follow you into calling either the UK or the EU "authoritarian". The UK is closer to it, and moving in that direction, but it's not there. The courts and the constitution have held up admirably.
Both dictate to Scotland what they can and cannot do.
I'm not Scottish, but I'm sorry, that's bollocks. An independent Scotland in the EU would have far more control of its own affairs than it currently has in the UK.
And far, far less than it would have if it were properly independent instead of being a vassal state to the EU.
Goodness, that's a real shame as nobody who knows me in real life would agree with your assessment (I hope).
I don't like the thought of someone harbouring a mistaken grudge from something I assume was said weeks ago so if you can give me some idea of what has upset you I would be more than happy to clarify any position that may have been misinterpreted.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
When you look at the way that Irish diplomacy has worked within the EU over Brexit it's easy to see why smaller countries really value EU membership.
To call it an authoritarian union is not the Irish experience.
Somewhat a special case, they used it as a way to pressure the UK. With the erosion of the veto, the voices of the individual countries matter a lot less.
The importance of the veto is much overrated in the UK. What matters is diplomacy and being able to build alliances and win people over to your point of view by persuasion.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
Why do you talk about Scotland in such a patrician way? Scotland can make its own decisions and doesn't have to worry about whether those decisions invalidate your worldview.
Your position has always been pro Scottish independence and pro overturning the Brexit vote, you only support allowing decisions to be made when they are close to your worldview
Cool - so the opposition is admitting that they're too shit to win, and will therefore deliberately keep a government they claim is incompetent and destructive in power. As long as we're all clear on that!
You make me laugh. Yes the Oppostion is complete sh*t but even they are not dumb enough to give you what you are begging for.
You go ahead and find the opposition's 100% inability to constitute an alternative government funny if you like. I find it abjectly pathetic.
I do not really care what you think. I do not really care about any UK party.
The country is doing its d*mndest to become a laughing stock with the current set of fools and the alternate fools known as the opposition.
At this rate it will probably not be too long until I stop giving a d*mn about the UK either, which is a huge pity because it used to be a country worthy of respect.
No, but I don't think that is part of the huge problems for the government, it expects it not to happen and it's just playing politics 'they said they wanted extension requested first well now it is and they still wont Brexit'.
The loss on the timetable, which looks certain as who besides the tories cares if the legislation is approved before 31 october, looks like a massive problem.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
Probably not worth doing this since you've had a lot of conversations like this here and you're still scratching your head but here goes.
The EU is a lot of things but it isn't authoritarian.
Small countries like the EU because they have influence in proportion to their size or greater, contrary to the british eurosceptic assumption that Angela Merkel must be in charge of everything. When it matters, they are able to call on the power of this much bigger entity, as we just saw in the negotiations with Ireland that's historically been kicked around by the British.
They would have more theoretical autonomy outside the EU, but less practical power, because in practice they'd end up having to adopt the EU's rules for everything that mattered in any case.
PS All the same things apply to Britain vs the EU, but to a smaller degree.
As long as the vast majority of decisions at EU level are made by QMV, what you have just written is simply rubbish. Smaller countries - even if they band together - have no hope of overturning the decisions of the larger ones. And I am not scratching my head at all. I understand these things very well.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
I don't think I'd follow you into calling either the UK or the EU "authoritarian". The UK is closer to it, and moving in that direction, but it's not there. The courts and the constitution have held up admirably.
Both dictate to Scotland what they can and cannot do. And in both cases Scottish input into the process is (or in the case of Scotland within the EU would be) very limited. If they have the courage of their convictions to become independent - which I hope they do - then they would be mad to immediately give that up to the EU.
I think you need to first notice that Scotland's place in the UK is very different in character to a mid-sized country in the EU. It would have vetoes on areas where countries have vetoes, and the QMV process also helps smaller countries. They are very different propositions in character. Which underscores my assertion that there are unionist solutions to the "democratic deficit" that exists. The UK could be organised differently that might quell the dissatisfaction in Scotland with the way things currently are. But, again, it's not my fight. If you don't find it logical, it's not up to me to convince you. Perhaps the way I see it isn't the same way many Scots see it.
I don't see how an objective Speaker can claim this is the same motion. For a start, the circumstances have meaningfully changed with the Benn Act being invoked and a letter sent to Brussels. Secondly, the Letwin Amended act was completely different to the original government one.
Of course Bercow is a completely biased Speaker happy to overrule centuries of precedent, so I am sure he will do what is needed to help Remain, constitution and logic be damned.
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
My family are wholly pro the Union and have been even when we lived in Scotland and of course my wife is from NE Scotland
The idea my wife would have to show a passport to go home is totally unacceptable
So EU membership for all then?
Precisely. If British unionists could learn to think in terms of a larger union that was not dominated by England, it would solve the problem. We need *a* union but not *the* union.
That's my thinking. Something needs fixing about the current situation, and Brexit is only making it worse. I could -- could -- vote for independence if I lived in Scotland. But it isn't the only route to fixing the issues. I do think unionists need a plan B. Perhaps Gordon Brown's warm words on near-federalism should be transposed from the realm of hollow promises and into reality. Last time unionists rather winged it and got in a terrible panic at the last minute. This time the nationalist baseline is roughly on a par with the unionist one, so there is zero room for complacency. And yet, I see a lot of complacency still.
We could let England secede from the United Kingdom and become independant and then it could have its precious Brexit.
No, but I don't think that is part of the huge problems for the government, it expects it not to happen and it's just playing politics 'they said they wanted extension requested first well now it is and they still wont Brexit'.
The loss on the timetable, which looks certain as who besides the tories cares if the legislation is approved before 31 october, looks like a massive problem.
Maybe Bercow might surprise us . So many strange things have happened who knows !
However if he doesn’t allow the vote then it’s bets off as to what happens over the next few weeks .
Cool - so the opposition is admitting that they're too shit to win, and will therefore deliberately keep a government they claim is incompetent and destructive in power. As long as we're all clear on that!
You make me laugh. Yes the Oppostion is complete sh*t but even they are not dumb enough to give you what you are begging for.
You go ahead and find the opposition's 100% inability to constitute an alternative government funny if you like. I find it abjectly pathetic.
I do not really care what you think. I do not really care about any UK party.
The country is doing its d*mndest to become a laughing stock with the current set of fools and the alternate fools known as the opposition.
At this rate it will probably not be too long until I stop giving a d*mn about the UK either, which is a huge pity because it used to be a country worthy of respect.
You stopped giving a damn about the country long ago. Indeed long before you changed your avatar and your name.
Government could argue that amendment had the effect of creating a wholly new motion, so bringing the MV motion back is not a revote. I have some sympathy with this since as a practical fact we have no exact idea of whether individual MPs currently support the deal or not. A straight vote on the MV motion would tell us that.
Bercow has shown a tendency to let Parliament decide rather than restricting the opportunity for MPs to vote on stuff.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
I don't think I'd follow you into calling either the UK or the EU "authoritarian". The UK is closer to it, and moving in that direction, but it's not there. The courts and the constitution have held up admirably.
Both dictate to Scotland what they can and cannot do.
I'm not Scottish, but I'm sorry, that's bollocks. An independent Scotland in the EU would have far more control of its own affairs than it currently has in the UK.
And far, far less than it would have if it were properly independent instead of being a vassal state to the EU.
Given that your definition of "properly independent" means being in the EEA and implementing laws made in Brussels, this is an eccentric position.
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
No, we do not want to end up like Catalonia, so Boris will just block indyref2 and not go so far as Spain has and arrest Nicola Sturgeon for sedition
One interesting thing is that Farage keeps arguing for an extension so we can have an election. If votes don't go the right way this week and an election is called with an extension granted its hard to see Farage saying the extension is a betrayal now when its been forced by the opposition and called for by himself.
Also, it is ridiculous to amend an international treaty during ratification. You can't change the agreement just on one side. If parliament wants to renegotiate, they can choose another government to do that. Any change to the deal is just a wrecking amendment by chancers and crooks.
I'd be careful of assuming the DUP will not get into the tent. Whilst its hard to see exactly how, they are playing hardball but not taking a 100% get stuffed position.
The DUP are aware of that so they need to wring some stuff out of Johnson to get a route out. Their problem is working out what and Johnson's problem is delivering it.
I seem to recall you suggesting this kind of 'The DUP are looking for a route out of this' stuff before, and while I'm sure you know NI better than I do, I cannot help but reflect that this supposed looking for a route out has so far not manifested itself in any practical way, nor assisted any government in getting a Brexit deal through. Regardless of nasty Boris or nasty Theresa being to blame, I don't really understand what you think the DUP's motivations are that change that they seem to continually do exactly what they always say they'll do.
What difference does it make if they are just 'playing' hardball or looking for a 'route out'? Boris cannot move any direction with losing other votes and in any case cannot abandon his own deal now which is what they are demanding, they won't take a great big increase in money to NI as payment for this Brexit, so their playing hardball becomes true hardball pretty darn fast.
The only thing we can tell for certain is how much they enjoyed holding the whip hand over the Tories, and are relishing their chance to use that to punish Boris now for abandoning them because even with them he had no majority, so saw no reason not to throw them under the bus. Which means they seem almost certain to vote for any amendment that can wreck up Boris's plans, and aid a VONC if they cannot do that - what difference does it make to them?
It's as nico67 says, they will do anything to delay or wreck Boris's plans now. Another reason Brexit is probably sunk.
I should clarify, this isn't my opinion its what I'm being told by people who understand how the DUP work way better than me.
Its the same calculations as most other parties in this have, go one way, get fallout that could be worse, go the other get fallout that could be worse ie its the unknown level of risk. Least damaging option, go straight on, get it wrapped up, stick a bow on it and move on.
You are correct, there is next to no room to manouvere here for them or Johnson. The DUP, however, do want to go straight on and I trust the wonks that I know that this a shitty struggle at the moment for them. That's why I said its hard to see how something could be cobbled together but have no doubt, they'd like a way through this to back a deal sooner rather than later and they'd forgive Boris to do it.
Parliament hasn’t actually had the opportunity to vote on the unamended motion.
Consider an alternative scenario. A Bill introduced and passed in the Commons with an amendment. House of Lords votes to take out amendment and sends it back. House of Commons decides to pass the bill without the amendment...
Parliament hasn’t actually had the opportunity to vote on the unamended motion.
Consider an alternative scenario. A Bill introduced and passed in the Commons with an amendment. House of Lords votes to take out amendment and sends it back. House of Commons decides to pass the bill without the amendment...
House of Lords is stacked with Lib Dem peers by Cameron though, so can't see them doing that.
As long as the vast majority of decisions at EU level are made by QMV, what you have just written is simply rubbish. Smaller countries - even if they band together - have no hope of overturning the decisions of the larger ones. And I am not scratching my head at all. I understand these things very well.
You're trying very hard not to understand what's going on, which is why you're still baffled why all these small countries want to be in the EU after so many threads.
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
No, we do not want to end up like Catalonia, so Boris will just block indyref2 and not go so far as Spain has and arrest Nicola Sturgeon for sedition
Blocking a referendum that's clearly been voted for in the regional Parliament is exactly the same mistake that Spain made. It would be a spectacularly stupid move.
Parliament hasn’t actually had the opportunity to vote on the unamended motion.
Consider an alternative scenario. A Bill introduced and passed in the Commons with an amendment. House of Lords votes to take out amendment and sends it back. House of Commons decides to pass the bill without the amendment...
The House of Remain taking out an amendment the Commons remain opposition got past the government?
Parliament hasn’t actually had the opportunity to vote on the unamended motion.
Consider an alternative scenario. A Bill introduced and passed in the Commons with an amendment. House of Lords votes to take out amendment and sends it back. House of Commons decides to pass the bill without the amendment...
The House of Remain taking out an amendment the Commons remain opposition got past the government?
I was talking about a generic bill, nothing to do with the EU. As a contradiction to the idea that Bercow should rule the vote out of order ( i’m Sure he will though - in fact I reckon the only reason the Govt are tabling it is because they expect him to!)
By the way, Boris should promise the DUP a bridge in the next Tory manifesto.
Or the UUP.....
The UUP have said they’d rather revoke Article 50 than have this deal . This gives space for the DUP to soften their stance .
The DUP can’t really afford a no deal , far too damaging to NI and they’d suffer at the polls. The DUP can say if we’re not going to get a Brexit where the whole UK leaves as one then they’d rather not have it.
The Tories probably have the votes to get the deal through but on amendments many of the Labour MPs who will support the deal would also like to support a Customs Union, that also gives them cover for voting for the deal .
A CU amendment could pass, for example it got 273 votes in the indicative votes and 301 votes last July, that makes 283 votes or 313 votes with the DUP.
EUref2 by contrast only got 280 votes in the indicative votes and the DUP have said they prefer a UK Customs Union to EUref2. 306 MPs voted against Letwin and some MPs like Rudd or Gauke or Hammond ie May Deal diehards may prefer to add a Customs Union to the Withdrawal Agreement ahead of voting for the boris Deal as is.
However if a CU is added Boris will refuse to implement it without a general election where he would campaign for his current Deal, the LDs will likely still prefer revoke at that election and Corbyn could end up squeezed even if a Customs Union is close to his original Brexit position before he backed a confirmatory referendum
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
I don't think I'd follow you into calling either the UK or the EU "authoritarian". The UK is closer to it, and moving in that direction, but it's not there. The courts and the constitution have held up admirably.
Both dictate to Scotland what they can and cannot do.
I'm not Scottish, but I'm sorry, that's bollocks. An independent Scotland in the EU would have far more control of its own affairs than it currently has in the UK.
And far, far less than it would have if it were properly independent instead of being a vassal state to the EU.
Given that your definition of "properly independent" means being in the EEA and implementing laws made in Brussels, this is an eccentric position.
The reaction would be unutterably priceless. But it won't happen.
It would be comedic.
Someone(s) would need to pursuade Corbyn to VoNC. Immediately. And then persuade him to revoke once he was PM. And everyone (except the Cons) would have to rally round him.
Remain would then win, as I bet there would be no apitite to reinvoke.
Parliament hasn’t actually had the opportunity to vote on the unamended motion.
Consider an alternative scenario. A Bill introduced and passed in the Commons with an amendment. House of Lords votes to take out amendment and sends it back. House of Commons decides to pass the bill without the amendment...
The MV is a motion not a bill , and the government can’t send a motion to the Lords .
They want the MV to go through without the Letwin Amendment still being active so they can withdraw the extension .
Even if Bercow allows the MV it could still be amended again. All substantive motions can have amendments .
Given that a wrecking amendment (e.g. the CU) likely leads to an election, which will probably be a Boris majority, isn't it in the interest of the DUP to extract their price NOW? Their leverage will likely evaporate after a GE. Voting for a CU is therefore a big mistake for them.
One interesting thing is that Farage keeps arguing for an extension so we can have an election. If votes don't go the right way this week and an election is called with an extension granted its hard to see Farage saying the extension is a betrayal now when its been forced by the opposition and called for by himself.
He would be able to say that Johnson had been incapable of delivering on his promises.
It's possible though that Farage is simply saying whatever bizarre rubbish will get him noticed. He wants to be the centre of attention and isn't.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
I don't think I'd follow you into calling either the UK or the EU "authoritarian". The UK is closer to it, and moving in that direction, but it's not there. The courts and the constitution have held up admirably.
Both dictate to Scotland what they can and cannot do.
I'm not Scottish, but I'm sorry, that's bollocks. An independent Scotland in the EU would have far more control of its own affairs than it currently has in the UK.
And far, far less than it would have if it were properly independent instead of being a vassal state to the EU.
Given that your definition of "properly independent" means being in the EEA and implementing laws made in Brussels, this is an eccentric position.
Since it does not, your comment is rubbish.
You’re renouncing your long-held position in support of the Norway option?
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
No, we do not want to end up like Catalonia, so Boris will just block indyref2 and not go so far as Spain has and arrest Nicola Sturgeon for sedition
Blocking a referendum that's clearly been voted for in the regional Parliament is exactly the same mistake that Spain made. It would be a spectacularly stupid move.
No it would not and I notice Catalonia is still not independent since Spain blocked a referendum in Catalonia.
If Sturgeon wishes to block the UK leaving the EU and respecting the Leave vote, the Tories will correctly block her from having any more votes on leaving the UK.
She has refused to respect the 2014 or 2016 referendum results so she will be rightly refused any further referendum she wants to call
Remain would then win, as I bet there would be no apitite to reinvoke.
This is delusional. Revoke would be completely illegitimate and the Tories would go into the election on a manifesto pledge to Leave on the Boris deal. And they would win a stonking majority.
One interesting thing is that Farage keeps arguing for an extension so we can have an election. If votes don't go the right way this week and an election is called with an extension granted its hard to see Farage saying the extension is a betrayal now when its been forced by the opposition and called for by himself.
He would be able to say that Johnson had been incapable of delivering on his promises.
It's possible though that Farage is simply saying whatever bizarre rubbish will get him noticed. He wants to be the centre of attention and isn't.
If you go to FoxNews website he’s saying very different things to what he appears to be saying domestically. Eg. says there is huge anger at Parliament rejecting deal, and says he expects Johnson to win election on back of it.
I'd be careful of assuming the DUP will not get into the tent. Whilst its hard to see exactly how, they are playing hardball but not taking a 100% get stuffed position.
There is an opportunity in the maelstrom for Northern Ireland that plays exactly into comfortable acceptance of the union amongst the population here that leaves Irish nationalism a long long way from getting its dream wish. That opportunity is most overtly economic but its also political, the more everything ticks along without disruption the more comfortable people here get with the constitutional status quo. There is plenty of evidence of that over 20 years when it comes to the core constitutional question.
The DUP are aware of that so they need to wring some stuff out of Johnson to get a route out. Their problem is working out what and Johnson's problem is delivering it.
That Sylvia Hermon is stating that there is unionist anger is probably a better sign of where its at amongst unionists. Her constituency has plenty of exactly the kind of soft, small u unionist types that nationalist advocates think somehow will change their tune one day and help tip the balance . If she is picking up signals its an indication that blood is still thicker than water.
Are you saying the DUP could come round to voting for the deal?
They really like to get this over with, so they are open to making it work. The problem is how because its now an issue of principle, not on Johnson being a bit of a chancer, but on the concept of economic difference between NI and the rest of the UK. One person's economic separation increasing political separation is another person's special economic status enhancing NI that could only come from being in the Union. The difficulty is getting something to ease worries on the former so they can trumpet the latter since the so called Stormont lock proposed at the start was their control mechanism. That looks very difficult but don't bet that the DUP wouldn't be open to a way out.
They wanted to back the May deal but then found the Attorney General's advice on the backstop plus the likelihood that their erstwhile allies in the ERG wouldn't be going wholesale for it (i.e. it was likely to fall anyway), enough to stop them.
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
No, we do not want to end up like Catalonia, so Boris will just block indyref2 and not go so far as Spain has and arrest Nicola Sturgeon for sedition
Blocking a referendum that's clearly been voted for in the regional Parliament is exactly the same mistake that Spain made. It would be a spectacularly stupid move.
No it would not and I notice Catalonia is still not independent since Spain blocked a referendum in Catalonia.
If Sturgeon wishes to block the UK leaving the EU and respecting the Leave vote, the Tories will correctly block her from having any more votes on leaving the UK.
She has refused to respect the 2014 or 2016 referenda so she will be refused any further referendum she wants to call
The 2014 vote was for Scotland to stay in the UK and Scotland is still in the UK. So, I'm not quite sure what more you expect.
One interesting thing is that Farage keeps arguing for an extension so we can have an election. If votes don't go the right way this week and an election is called with an extension granted its hard to see Farage saying the extension is a betrayal now when its been forced by the opposition and called for by himself.
Nigel has been all over the place for weeks. I'm not sure he's well actually...
Given that a wrecking amendment (e.g. the CU) likely leads to an election, which will probably be a Boris majority, isn't it in the interest of the DUP to extract their price NOW? Their leverage will likely evaporate after a GE. Voting for a CU is therefore a big mistake for them.
The government can just remove the CU if they win the general election . This is more about politics than legality.
The public will see the deal with customs union . The Brexit Party will scream betrayal . Johnson wants to say he has a great deal not okay we have a great deal , don’t worry we’ll get rid of the CU a bit later .
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
No, we do not want to end up like Catalonia, so Boris will just block indyref2 and not go so far as Spain has and arrest Nicola Sturgeon for sedition
Remain would then win, as I bet there would be no apitite to reinvoke.
This is delusional. Revoke would be completely illegitimate and the Tories would go into the election on a manifesto pledge to Leave on the Boris deal. And they would win a stonking majority.
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
No, we do not want to end up like Catalonia, so Boris will just block indyref2 and not go so far as Spain has and arrest Nicola Sturgeon for sedition
I do not really care what you think. I do not really care about any UK party.
The country is doing its d*mndest to become a laughing stock with the current set of fools and the alternate fools known as the opposition.
At this rate it will probably not be too long until I stop giving a d*mn about the UK either, which is a huge pity because it used to be a country worthy of respect.
You stopped giving a damn about the country long ago. Indeed long before you changed your avatar and your name.
You may well be correct. It used to be a great country before the kippers and nationalists decided it was time for Little England. Not being English it holds no attraction for me, indeed I would be likely to be on the receiving end of discrimination.
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
No, we do not want to end up like Catalonia, so Boris will just block indyref2 and not go so far as Spain has and arrest Nicola Sturgeon for sedition
Blocking a referendum that's clearly been voted for in the regional Parliament is exactly the same mistake that Spain made. It would be a spectacularly stupid move.
No it would not and I notice Catalonia is still not independent since Spain blocked a referendum in Catalonia.
If Sturgeon wishes to block the UK leaving the EU and respecting the Leave vote, the Tories will correctly block her from having any more votes on leaving the UK.
She has refused to respect the 2014 or 2016 referenda so she will be refused any further referendum she wants to call
The 2014 vote was for Scotland to stay in the UK and Scotland is still in the UK. So, I'm not quite sure what more you expect.
Has Sturgeon accepted that for a generation as promised? Nope, she is back demanding another referendum again
I note too the latest Spanish poll ahead of next month's election after the jailing of the Catalan nationalists has the opposition conservative People's Party projected to be up from 66 seats at the last election to 98 seats this time and the far right Vox party up from 24 seats to 34.
Both take a very hard line against Catalan independence and for Spanish unity
I'd be careful of assuming the DUP will not get into the tent. Whilst its hard to see exactly how, they are playing hardball but not taking a 100% get stuffed position.
There is an opportunity in the maelstrom for Northern Ireland that plays exactly into comfortable acceptance of the union amongst the population here that leaves Irish nationalism a long long way from getting its dream wish. That opportunity is most overtly economic but its also political, the more everything ticks along without disruption the more comfortable people here get with the constitutional status quo. There is plenty of evidence of that over 20 years when it comes to the core constitutional question.
The DUP are aware of that so they need to wring some stuff out of Johnson to get a route out. Their problem is working out what and Johnson's problem is delivering it.
That Sylvia Hermon is stating that there is unionist anger is probably a better sign of where its at amongst unionists. Her constituency has plenty of exactly the kind of soft, small u unionist types that nationalist advocates think somehow will change their tune one day and help tip the balance . If she is picking up signals its an indication that blood is still thicker than water.
Are you saying the DUP could come round to voting for the deal?
They really like to get this over with, so they are open to making it work. The problem is how because its now an issue of principle, not on Johnson being a bit of a chancer, but on the concept of economic difference between NI and the rest of the UK. One person's economic separation increasing political separation is another person's special economic status enhancing NI that could only come from being in the Union. The difficulty is getting something to ease worries on the former so they can trumpet the latter since the so called Stormont lock proposed at the start was their control mechanism. That looks very difficult but don't bet that the DUP wouldn't be open to a way out.
They wanted to back the May deal but then found the Attorney General's advice on the backstop plus the likelihood that their erstwhile allies in the ERG wouldn't be going wholesale for it (i.e. it was likely to fall anyway), enough to stop them.
No... it is much simpler than that. The DUP are terrified of a United Ireland and anything that unites the island is a cause for concern to them.
They are more British than the British and that is all there is to it. Anything that pushes them away from the mainland (like a BORDER of any sort in the Irish Sea) will be resisted.
One interesting thing is that Farage keeps arguing for an extension so we can have an election. If votes don't go the right way this week and an election is called with an extension granted its hard to see Farage saying the extension is a betrayal now when its been forced by the opposition and called for by himself.
He would be able to say that Johnson had been incapable of delivering on his promises.
It's possible though that Farage is simply saying whatever bizarre rubbish will get him noticed. He wants to be the centre of attention and isn't.
If you go to FoxNews website he’s saying very different things to what he appears to be saying domestically. Eg. says there is huge anger at Parliament rejecting deal, and says he expects Johnson to win election on back of it.
The Trump\Fox News image of Farage is that he and Boris are peas in a pod and allies. Trump has said as much. They don't really dig any deeper than that. So over there he's adopting more of an observer and supporter of johnson tone, whereas domestically he of course is panicking about his potential loss of influence if Boris keeps the brexit crown.
I'd be careful of assuming the DUP will not get into the tent. Whilst its hard to see exactly how, they are playing hardball but not taking a 100% get stuffed position.
There is an opportunity in the maelstrom for Northern Ireland that plays exactly into comfortable acceptance of the union amongst the population here that leaves Irish nationalism a long long way from getting its dream wish. That opportunity is most overtly economic but its also political, the more everything ticks along without disruption the more comfortable people here get with the constitutional status quo. There is plenty of evidence of that over 20 years when it comes to the core constitutional question.
The DUP are aware of that so they need to wring some stuff out of Johnson to get a route out. Their problem is working out what and Johnson's problem is delivering it.
That Sylvia Hermon is stating that there is unionist anger is probably a better sign of where its at amongst unionists. Her constituency has plenty of exactly the kind of soft, small u unionist types that nationalist advocates think somehow will change their tune one day and help tip the balance . If she is picking up signals its an indication that blood is still thicker than water.
Are you saying the DUP could come round to voting for the deal?
They really like to get this over with,ut.
They wanted to back the May deal but then found the Attorney General's advice on the backstop plus the likelihood that their erstwhile allies in the ERG wouldn't be going wholesale for it (i.e. it was likely to fall anyway), enough to stop them.
No... it is much simpler than that. The DUP are terrified of a United Ireland and anything that unites the island is a cause for concern to them.
They are more British than the British and that is all there is to it. Anything that pushes them away from the mainland (like a BORDER of any sort in the Irish Sea) will be resisted.
The DUP would prefer a hard border with the Republic of Ireland, which was why they opposed the Good Friday Agreement. David Trimble, who negotiated the Good Friday Agreement on behalf of Unionists, backs the Boris Deal and 71% of Northern Ireland voters voted for the Good Friday Agreement in the 1998 referendum
I'd be careful of assuming the DUP will not get into the tent. Whilst its hard to see exactly how, they are playing hardball but not taking a 100% get stuffed position.
There is an opportunity in the maelstrom for Northern Ireland that plays exactly into comfortable acceptance of the union amongst the population here that leaves Irish nationalism a long long way from getting its dream wish. That opportunity is most overtly economic but its also political, the more everything ticks along without disruption the more comfortable people here get with the constitutional status quo. There is plenty of evidence of that over 20 years when it comes to the core constitutional question.
The DUP are aware of that so they need to wring some stuff out of Johnson to get a route out. Their problem is working out what and Johnson's problem is delivering it.
That Sylvia Hermon is stating that there is unionist anger is probably a better sign of where its at amongst unionists. Her constituency has plenty of exactly the kind of soft, small u unionist types that nationalist advocates think somehow will change their tune one day and help tip the balance . If she is picking up signals its an indication that blood is still thicker than water.
Are you saying the DUP could come round to voting for the deal?
They really like to get this over with,ut.
They wanted to back the May deal but then found the Attorney General's advice on the backstop plus the likelihood that their erstwhile allies in the ERG wouldn't be going wholesale for it (i.e. it was likely to fall anyway), enough to stop them.
No... it is much simpler than that. The DUP are terrified of a United Ireland and anything that unites the island is a cause for concern to them.
They are more British than the British and that is all there is to it. Anything that pushes them away from the mainland (like a BORDER of any sort in the Irish Sea) will be resisted.
The DUP would prefer a hard border with the Republic of Ireland, which was why they opposed the Good Friday Agreement. David Trimble, who negotiated the Good Friday Agreement on behalf of Unionists, backs the Boris Deal and 71% of Northern Ireland voters voted for the Good Friday Agreement in the 1998 referendum
David Trimble sits as a Conservative in the Lords. . He no longer has an affiliation with any NI based unionist party.
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
No, we do not want to end up like Catalonia, so Boris will just block indyref2 and not go so far as Spain has and arrest Nicola Sturgeon for sedition
Blocking a referendum that's clearly been voted for in the regional Parliament is exactly the same mistake that Spain made. It would be a spectacularly stupid move.
No it would not and I notice Catalonia is still not independent since Spain blocked a referendum in Catalonia.
If Sturgeon wishes to block the UK leaving the EU and respecting the Leave vote, the Tories will correctly block her from having any more votes on leaving the UK.
She has refused to respect the 2014 or 2016 referenda so she will be refused any further referendum she wants to call
The 2014 vote was for Scotland to stay in the UK and Scotland is still in the UK. So, I'm not quite sure what more you expect.
Has Sturgeon accepted that for a generation as promised? Nope, she is back demanding another referendum again
I don’t recall her promising any such thing. Perhaps you could provide the quote ?
And in any event, the Brexit vote, which is likely to impose on Scotland a settlement strongly opposed by the majority of the Scottish electorate, gives ample justification for asking the question again.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
I don't think I'd follow you into calling either the UK or the EU "authoritarian". The UK is closer to it, and moving in that direction, but it's not there. The courts and the constitution have held up admirably.
Both dictate to Scotland what they can and cannot do.
I'm not Scottish, but I'm sorry, that's bollocks. An independent Scotland in the EU would have far more control of its own affairs than it currently has in the UK.
And far, far less than it would have if it were properly independent instead of being a vassal state to the EU.
Given that your definition of "properly independent" means being in the EEA and implementing laws made in Brussels, this is an eccentric position.
Since it does not, your comment is rubbish.
You’re renouncing your long-held position in support of the Norway option?
No I am saying your definition of the Norway option is so far off the mark as to be laughable.
Remain would then win, as I bet there would be no apitite to reinvoke.
This is delusional. Revoke would be completely illegitimate and the Tories would go into the election on a manifesto pledge to Leave on the Boris deal. And they would win a stonking majority.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
I don't think I'd follow you into calling either the UK or the EU "authoritarian". The UK is closer to it, and moving in that direction, but it's not there. The courts and the constitution have held up admirably.
Both dictate to Scotland what they can and cannot do.
I'm not Scottish, but I'm sorry, that's bollocks. An independent Scotland in the EU would have far more control of its own affairs than it currently has in the UK.
And far, far less than it would have if it were properly independent instead of being a vassal state to the EU.
Given that your definition of "properly independent" means being in the EEA and implementing laws made in Brussels, this is an eccentric position.
Since it does not, your comment is rubbish.
You’re renouncing your long-held position in support of the Norway option?
No I am saying your definition of the Norway option is so far off the mark as to be laughable.
What part of "implementing laws made in Brussels" is off the mark?
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
Probably not worth doing this since you've had a lot of conversations like this here and you're still scratching your head but here goes.
The EU is a lot of things but it isn't authoritarian.
Small countries like the EU because they have influence in proportion to their size or greater, contrary to the british eurosceptic assumption that Angela Merkel must be in charge of everything. When it matters, they are able to call on the power of this much bigger entity, as we just saw in the negotiations with Ireland that's historically been kicked around by the British.
They would have more theoretical autonomy outside the EU, but less practical power, because in practice they'd end up having to adopt the EU's rules for everything that mattered in any case.
PS All the same things apply to Britain vs the EU, but to a smaller degree.
As long as the vast majority of decisions at EU level are made by QMV, what you have just written is simply rubbish. Smaller countries - even if they band together - have no hope of overturning the decisions of the larger ones. And I am not scratching my head at all. I understand these things very well.
You're always very quick to call others arguments rubbish and your own understanding "very well".
It's true that a majority of decisions is made by QV. It's also true that those decisions tend to be 'smaller decisions', of a much more limited scope, rather technical in nature, usually implementing 'grander decisions' on the general direction of policies, often decisions that were universally approved. It's also true that on QV decided issues there will often be opt-outs and/or some flexibility on how to implement them. It's also true that smaller countries, when their interests are aligned - and they band together - frequently decide QV votes in their favour, against interests of the 'big beasts'.
It's probably true that these may be reasons why smaller countries, on aggregate, seem to hold the view that they can live with the system as it is - even if it's not perfect. Corroborating evidence for that may be the fact that besides Blighty no other country - big or small - has ever tried to perform a -/exit.
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
No, we do not want to end up like Catalonia, so Boris will just block indyref2 and not go so far as Spain has and arrest Nicola Sturgeon for sedition
Blocking a referendum that's clearly been voted for in the regional Parliament is exactly the same mistake that Spain made. It would be a spectacularly stupid move.
No it would not and I notice Catalonia is still not independent since Spain blocked a referendum in Catalonia.
If Sturgeon wishes to block the UK leaving the EU and respecting the Leave vote, the Tories will correctly block her from having any more votes on leaving the UK.
She has refused to respect the 2014 or 2016 referenda so she will be refused any further referendum she wants to call
The 2014 vote was for Scotland to stay in the UK and Scotland is still in the UK. So, I'm not quite sure what more you expect.
Has Sturgeon accepted that for a generation as promised? Nope, she is back demanding another referendum again
I don’t recall her promising any such thing. Perhaps you could provide the quote ?
And in any event, the Brexit vote, which is likely to impose on Scotland a settlement strongly opposed by the majority of the Scottish electorate, gives ample justification for asking the question again.
No it does not, Scotland voted No in 2014 knowing full well Cameron had said he would call an EU referendum if he won the 2015 referendum, there is no justification to ask the question again, certainly at least not before the 2021 Holyrood elections and Boris will rightly block any such request for indyref2
I'd be careful of assuming the DUP will not get into the tent. Whilst its hard to see exactly how, they are playing hardball but not taking a 100% get stuffed position.
There is an opportunity in the maelstrom for Northern Ireland that plays exactly into comfortable acceptance of the union amongst the population here that leaves Irish nationalism a long long way from getting its dream wish. That opportunity is most overtly economic but its also political, the more everything ticks along without disruption the more comfortable people here get with the constitutional status quo. There is plenty of evidence of that over 20 years when it comes to the core constitutional question.
The DUP are aware of that so they need to wring some stuff out of Johnson to get a route out. Their problem is working out what and Johnson's problem is delivering it.
That Sylvia Hermon is stating that there is unionist anger is probably a better sign of where its at amongst unionists. Her constituency has plenty of exactly the kind of soft, small u unionist types that nationalist advocates think somehow will change their tune one day and help tip the balance . If she is picking up signals its an indication that blood is still thicker than water.
Are you saying the DUP could come round to voting for the deal?
They really like to get this over with,ut.
They wanted to back the May deal but then found the Attorney General's advice on the backstop plus the likelihood that their erstwhile allies in the ERG wouldn't be going wholesale for it (i.e. it was likely to fall anyway), enough to stop them.
No... it is much simpler than that. The DUP are terrified of a United Ireland and anything that unites the island is a cause for concern to them.
They are more British than the British and that is all there is to it. Anything that pushes them away from the mainland (like a BORDER of any sort in the Irish Sea) will be resisted.
The DUP would prefer a hard border with the Republic of Ireland, which was why they opposed the Good Friday Agreement. David Trimble, who negotiated the Good Friday Agreement on behalf of Unionists, backs the Boris Deal and 71% of Northern Ireland voters voted for the Good Friday Agreement in the 1998 referendum
David Trimble sits as a Conservative in the Lords. . He no longer has an affiliation with any NI based unionist party.
The Conservative and Unionist Party has Lord Trimble as a member and indeed the UUP and Tories ran joint candidates in NI in 2010. Lord Trimble is of course the last UUP NI First Minister
You're always very quick to call others arguments rubbish and your own understanding "very well".
It's true that a majority of decisions is made by QV. It's also true that those decisions tend to be 'smaller decisions', of a much more limited scope, rather technical in nature, usually implementing 'grander decisions' on the general direction of policies, often decisions that were universally approved. It's also true that on QV decided issues there will often be opt-outs and/or some flexibility on how to implement them. It's also true that smaller countries, when their interests are aligned - and they band together - frequently decide QV votes in their favour, against interests of the 'big beasts'.
It's probably true that these may be reasons why smaller countries, on aggregate, seem to hold the view that they can live with the system as it is - even if it's not perfect. Corroborating evidence for that may be the fact that besides Blighty no other country - big or small - has ever tried to perform a -/exit.
LOL. Just go and look at the list of decisions made by QMV. The idea that they are smaller decisions and limited in scope is utterly ludicrous. And given it would take the 16 smallest countries banding together to pass anything against the wishes of the larger countries your claims are just plain wrong.
Remain would then win, as I bet there would be no apitite to reinvoke.
This is delusional. Revoke would be completely illegitimate and the Tories would go into the election on a manifesto pledge to Leave on the Boris deal. And they would win a stonking majority.
No thanks. And why should Scotland, having just gained independence from one Union, wish to subsume itself back into another?
We are far better as independent countries working alongside each other without the idiocy of a formal union.
Well, mainly because whether within the UK or outwith, Scotland wants to be in the EU. That ought to be good enough for anyone in terms of "why",
But why? Why win your independence from one authoritarian union and then immediately give it up to another.
I don't think I'd follow you into calling either the UK or the EU "authoritarian". The UK is closer to it, and moving in that direction, but it's not there. The courts and the constitution have held up admirably.
Both dictate to Scotland what they can and cannot do.
I'm not Scottish, but I'm sorry, that's bollocks. An independent Scotland in the EU would have far more control of its own affairs than it currently has in the UK.
And far, far less than it would have if it were properly independent instead of being a vassal state to the EU.
Given that your definition of "properly independent" means being in the EEA and implementing laws made in Brussels, this is an eccentric position.
Since it does not, your comment is rubbish.
You’re renouncing your long-held position in support of the Norway option?
No I am saying your definition of the Norway option is so far off the mark as to be laughable.
What part of "implementing laws made in Brussels" is off the mark?
The whole lot. It is simply not true. In spite of the many times you have tried to claim otherwise.
Remain would then win, as I bet there would be no apitite to reinvoke.
This is delusional. Revoke would be completely illegitimate and the Tories would go into the election on a manifesto pledge to Leave on the Boris deal. And they would win a stonking majority.
It is abundantly clear this deal is the best chance of getting a settlement most people could live with for the next decade. But Letwin and the other Remaniacs deliberately sabotage and delay even though there is a parliamentary majority for it.
You're always very quick to call others arguments rubbish and your own understanding "very well".
It's true that a majority of decisions is made by QV. It's also true that those decisions tend to be 'smaller decisions', of a much more limited scope, rather technical in nature, usually implementing 'grander decisions' on the general direction of policies, often decisions that were universally approved. It's also true that on QV decided issues there will often be opt-outs and/or some flexibility on how to implement them. It's also true that smaller countries, when their interests are aligned - and they band together - frequently decide QV votes in their favour, against interests of the 'big beasts'.
It's probably true that these may be reasons why smaller countries, on aggregate, seem to hold the view that they can live with the system as it is - even if it's not perfect. Corroborating evidence for that may be the fact that besides Blighty no other country - big or small - has ever tried to perform a -/exit.
LOL. Just go and look at the list of decisions made by QMV. The idea that they are smaller decisions and limited in scope is utterly ludicrous. And given it would take the 16 smallest countries banding together to pass anything against the wishes of the larger countries your claims are just plain wrong.
You're always very quick to call others arguments rubbish and your own understanding "very well".
It's true that a majority of decisions is made by QV. It's also true that those decisions tend to be 'smaller decisions', of a much more limited scope, rather technical in nature, usually implementing 'grander decisions' on the general direction of policies, often decisions that were universally approved. It's also true that on QV decided issues there will often be opt-outs and/or some flexibility on how to implement them. It's also true that smaller countries, when their interests are aligned - and they band together - frequently decide QV votes in their favour, against interests of the 'big beasts'.
It's probably true that these may be reasons why smaller countries, on aggregate, seem to hold the view that they can live with the system as it is - even if it's not perfect. Corroborating evidence for that may be the fact that besides Blighty no other country - big or small - has ever tried to perform a -/exit.
LOL. Just go and look at the list of decisions made by QMV. The idea that they are smaller decisions and limited in scope is utterly ludicrous. And given it would take the 16 smallest countries banding together to pass anything against the wishes of the larger countries your claims are just plain wrong.
Remain would then win, as I bet there would be no apitite to reinvoke.
This is delusional. Revoke would be completely illegitimate and the Tories would go into the election on a manifesto pledge to Leave on the Boris deal. And they would win a stonking majority.
When you look at the results then and using those figures in the tweet aswell.
The most popular first choice was to Remain.
44% then for Remain .
31% support the deal .
15% for no deal .
I of course expect the paper that commissioned this poll , to spin the results as we’ve seen from the tweet to suggest some overwhelming view that Bozos deal is marvelous .
By lumping the two preferences together it’s clearly designed to mislead .
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
No, we do not want to end up like Catalonia, so Boris will just block indyref2 and not go so far as Spain has and arrest Nicola Sturgeon for sedition
Blocking a referendum that's clearly been voted for in the regional Parliament is exactly the same mistake that Spain made. It would be a spectacularly stupid move.
No it would not and I notice Catalonia is still not independent since Spain blocked a referendum in Catalonia.
If Sturgeon wishes to block the UK leaving the EU and respecting the Leave vote, the Tories will correctly block her from having any more votes on leaving the UK.
She has refused to respect the 2014 or 2016 referenda so she will be refused any further referendum she wants to call
The 2014 vote was for Scotland to stay in the UK and Scotland is still in the UK. So, I'm not quite sure what more you expect.
Has Sturgeon accepted that for a generation as promised? Nope, she is back demanding another referendum again
I don’t recall her promising any such thing. Perhaps you could provide the quote ?
An election on 5th December will require Dissolution by 31st October.
I thought December elections were not possible because of weather and lack of venues for polling.
Then it's January, and we need another extension.
Unable to find polling booths in the christmas run-up, for all the nativity plays, and preferring not to hold elections because it's raining sometimes.
The United Kingdom of the early 21st century really looks a bit like a fairweather country.
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
No, we do not want to end up like Catalonia, so Boris will just block indyref2 and not go so far as Spain has and arrest Nicola Sturgeon for sedition
Blocking a referendum that's clearly been voted for in the regional Parliament is exactly the same mistake that Spain made. It would be a spectacularly stupid move.
No it would not and I notice Catalonia is still not independent since Spain blocked a referendum in Catalonia.
If Sturgeon wishes to block the UK leaving the EU and respecting the Leave vote, the Tories will correctly block her from having any more votes on leaving the UK.
She has refused to respect the 2014 or 2016 referenda so she will be refused any further referendum she wants to call
The 2014 vote was for Scotland to stay in the UK and Scotland is still in the UK. So, I'm not quite sure what more you expect.
Has Sturgeon accepted that for a generation as promised? Nope, she is back demanding another referendum again
I don’t recall her promising any such thing. Perhaps you could provide the quote ?
There is a significant difference between calling the referendum a once in a generation opportunity, and promising that you won’t hold another one for a generation.
Certainly one could say she implied as much, but to argue that she made a promise which can’t be broken, in the context of the Brexit vote, is sophistry.
And to elevate that to a firm constitutional principle ridiculous.
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
No, we do not want to end up like Catalonia, so Boris will just block indyref2 and not go so far as Spain has and arrest Nicola Sturgeon for sedition
Blocking a referendum that's clearly been voted for in the regional Parliament is exactly the same mistake that Spain made. It would be a spectacularly stupid move.
No it would not and I notice Catalonia is still not independent since Spain blocked a referendum in Catalonia.
If Sturgeon wishes to block the UK leaving the EU and respecting the Leave vote, the Tories will correctly block her from having any more votes on leaving the UK.
She has refused to respect the 2014 or 2016 referenda so she will be refused any further referendum she wants to call
The 2014 vote was for Scotland to stay in the UK and Scotland is still in the UK. So, I'm not quite sure what more you expect.
Has Sturgeon accepted that for a generation as promised? Nope, she is back demanding another referendum again
I don’t recall her promising any such thing. Perhaps you could provide the quote ?
There is a significant difference between calling the referendum a once in a generation opportunity, and promising that you won’t hold another one for a generation.
Certainly one could say she implied as much, but to argue that she made a promise which can’t be broken, in the context of the Brexit vote, is sophistry.
Your first sentence is a great example of sophistry.
From the SNP government's White Paper:
If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost.
Its like all those Remain politicians who said "there will be one vote, and it will be acted upon" who have decided that it shouldn't be acted upon and that there should be another vote because they don't like the outcome of the first vote.....
LOL, political journalists in this country are terminally bad.
We still have them saying things like Boris might "choose an election", when we've seen over and over again that he doesn't have the power to unilaterally "choose" anything with the current parliamentary arithmetic:
I don't understand the thing about bringing the MV back.
They brought it, it got amended to "we'll let you know when we see the WAB", and the result apparently passed without a vote.
If they bring it back, are they bringing it back as amended so they can have a symbolic vote on it? Or is the idea that the previous amended motion is just left sitting there, and they have a go at repeating the exercise from the beginning and seeing if that gets amended as well?
I think Nicola is a very good politician but I am not at all sure that she has not got some quite large domestic issues on her plate and her desire for a Independence may not be shared with as many as she thinks
I would vote SNP if I still lived in Scotland but would fight for the Union. Indeed within my Scots family there are quite a few who are precisely of that persuasion
I voted SNP at the last election, and would do so again had I not moved back to England in the meantime. I'm neutral on the independence question, though I do think a referendum should happen. Nobody wants to end up like Catalonia, which is reflecting badly on both Spain and Catalonia right now.
No, we do not want to end up like Catalonia, so Boris will just block indyref2 and not go so far as Spain has and arrest Nicola Sturgeon for sedition
Blocking a referendum that's clearly been voted for in the regional Parliament is exactly the same mistake that Spain made. It would be a spectacularly stupid move.
No it would not and I notice Catalonia is still not independent since Spain blocked a referendum in Catalonia.
If Sturgeon wishes to block the UK leaving the EU and respecting the Leave vote, the Tories will correctly block her from having any more votes on leaving the UK.
She has refused to respect the 2014 or 2016 referenda so she will be refused any further referendum she wants to call
The 2014 vote was for Scotland to stay in the UK and Scotland is still in the UK. So, I'm not quite sure what more you expect.
Has Sturgeon accepted that for a generation as promised? Nope, she is back demanding another referendum again
I don’t recall her promising any such thing. Perhaps you could provide the quote ?
And in any event, the Brexit vote, which is likely to impose on Scotland a settlement strongly opposed by the majority of the Scottish electorate, gives ample justification for asking the question again.
No it does not, Scotland voted No in 2014 knowing full well Cameron had said he would call an EU referendum if he won the 2015 referendum, there is no justification to ask the question again, certainly at least not before the 2021 Holyrood elections and Boris will rightly block any such request for indyref2
Ruth Davidson stood up at one debate and, in response to the charge of the Conservatives holding a EU Referendum, said that the Conservatives were not going to win the next election so it wasn't going to happen.
"Corbyn supports an election as long as we don't leave on 31st October with No Deal"
There seems to be a wide assumption that Corbyn will issue VONC after 31/10 both on this forum and in the media. Why are so many people so convinced about this? Do believe what he has said in the past; tactically he`d be crazy to go for a GE in the short term.
Comments
I don't like the thought of someone harbouring a mistaken grudge from something I assume was said weeks ago so if you can give me some idea of what has upset you I would be more than happy to clarify any position that may have been misinterpreted.
The country is doing its d*mndest to become a laughing stock with the current set of fools and the alternate fools known as the opposition.
At this rate it will probably not be too long until I stop giving a d*mn about the UK either, which is a huge pity because it used to be a country worthy of respect.
The loss on the timetable, which looks certain as who besides the tories cares if the legislation is approved before 31 october, looks like a massive problem.
They are very different propositions in character. Which underscores my assertion that there are unionist solutions to the "democratic deficit" that exists. The UK could be organised differently that might quell the dissatisfaction in Scotland with the way things currently are.
But, again, it's not my fight. If you don't find it logical, it's not up to me to convince you. Perhaps the way I see it isn't the same way many Scots see it.
Of course Bercow is a completely biased Speaker happy to overrule centuries of precedent, so I am sure he will do what is needed to help Remain, constitution and logic be damned.
However if he doesn’t allow the vote then it’s bets off as to what happens over the next few weeks .
Bercow has shown a tendency to let Parliament decide rather than restricting the opportunity for MPs to vote on stuff.
Its the same calculations as most other parties in this have, go one way, get fallout that could be worse, go the other get fallout that could be worse ie its the unknown level of risk. Least damaging option, go straight on, get it wrapped up, stick a bow on it and move on.
You are correct, there is next to no room to manouvere here for them or Johnson. The DUP, however, do want to go straight on and I trust the wonks that I know that this a shitty struggle at the moment for them. That's why I said its hard to see how something could be cobbled together but have no doubt, they'd like a way through this to back a deal sooner rather than later and they'd forgive Boris to do it.
Consider an alternative scenario. A Bill introduced and passed in the Commons with an amendment. House of Lords votes to take out amendment and sends it back. House of Commons decides to pass the bill without the amendment...
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1186045258842431489?s=21
EUref2 by contrast only got 280 votes in the indicative votes and the DUP have said they prefer a UK Customs Union to EUref2. 306 MPs voted against Letwin and some MPs like Rudd or Gauke or Hammond ie May Deal diehards may prefer to add a Customs Union to the Withdrawal Agreement ahead of voting for the boris Deal as is.
However if a CU is added Boris will refuse to implement it without a general election where he would campaign for his current Deal, the LDs will likely still prefer revoke at that election and Corbyn could end up squeezed even if a Customs Union is close to his original Brexit position before he backed a confirmatory referendum
Someone(s) would need to pursuade Corbyn to VoNC. Immediately. And then persuade him to revoke once he was PM. And everyone (except the Cons) would have to rally round him.
Remain would then win, as I bet there would be no apitite to reinvoke.
They want the MV to go through without the Letwin Amendment still being active so they can withdraw the extension .
Even if Bercow allows the MV it could still be amended again. All substantive motions can have amendments .
It's possible though that Farage is simply saying whatever bizarre rubbish will get him noticed. He wants to be the centre of attention and isn't.
If Sturgeon wishes to block the UK leaving the EU and respecting the Leave vote, the Tories will correctly block her from having any more votes on leaving the UK.
She has refused to respect the 2014 or 2016 referendum results so she will be rightly refused any further referendum she wants to call
The public will see the deal with customs union . The Brexit Party will scream betrayal . Johnson wants to say he has a great deal not okay we have a great deal , don’t worry we’ll get rid of the CU a bit later .
https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1185485189914464256?s=20
Both take a very hard line against Catalan independence and for Spanish unity
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-spain-politics-election/spains-ruling-socialists-seen-slipping-in-november-election-poll-idUKKBN1WW0S4?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews
They are more British than the British and that is all there is to it. Anything that pushes them away from the mainland (like a BORDER of any sort in the Irish Sea) will be resisted.
James Cleverly being an MP, for a start.
And in any event, the Brexit vote, which is likely to impose on Scotland a settlement strongly opposed by the majority of the Scottish electorate, gives ample justification for asking the question again.
It's true that a majority of decisions is made by QV. It's also true that those decisions tend to be 'smaller decisions', of a much more limited scope, rather technical in nature, usually implementing 'grander decisions' on the general direction of policies, often decisions that were universally approved.
It's also true that on QV decided issues there will often be opt-outs and/or some flexibility on how to implement them.
It's also true that smaller countries, when their interests are aligned - and they band together - frequently decide QV votes in their favour, against interests of the 'big beasts'.
It's probably true that these may be reasons why smaller countries, on aggregate, seem to hold the view that they can live with the system as it is - even if it's not perfect. Corroborating evidence for that may be the fact that besides Blighty no other country - big or small - has ever tried to perform a -/exit.
https://www.twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1185965248496439302
Never try and teach a pig to sing... it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
Goodnight!
The most popular first choice was to Remain.
44% then for Remain .
31% support the deal .
15% for no deal .
I of course expect the paper that commissioned this poll , to spin the results as we’ve seen from the tweet to suggest some overwhelming view that Bozos deal is marvelous .
By lumping the two preferences together it’s clearly designed to mislead .
Then it's January, and we need another extension.
The United Kingdom of the early 21st century really looks a bit like a fairweather country.
Certainly one could say she implied as much, but to argue that she made a promise which can’t be broken, in the context of the Brexit vote, is sophistry.
And to elevate that to a firm constitutional principle ridiculous.
And for the avoidance of doubt, I am a unionist.
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/20/mick-mulvaney-impeachment-white-house-052708
“At the end of the day, he still considers himself to be in the hospitality business,” Mulvaney told Wallace about Trump’s original decision to hold the next G-7 summit at his resort in Doral, Fla. — a decision he reversed late Saturday.
“I just have to pick up: You say he considers himself in the hospitality business?” Wallace asked. “He’s the president of the United States.”
From the SNP government's White Paper:
If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost.
https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf
Its like all those Remain politicians who said "there will be one vote, and it will be acted upon" who have decided that it shouldn't be acted upon and that there should be another vote because they don't like the outcome of the first vote.....
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1186009420431540226?s=20
https://twitter.com/AlxThomp/status/1186052837744230401?s=19
Lib 1.51 / 2
Con 2.32 / 3.6
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.163014027
They brought it, it got amended to "we'll let you know when we see the WAB", and the result apparently passed without a vote.
If they bring it back, are they bringing it back as amended so they can have a symbolic vote on it? Or is the idea that the previous amended motion is just left sitting there, and they have a go at repeating the exercise from the beginning and seeing if that gets amended as well?
Timmo said:"Again I ask...how does he get a GE?"
"Corbyn supports an election as long as we don't leave on 31st October with No Deal"
There seems to be a wide assumption that Corbyn will issue VONC after 31/10 both on this forum and in the media. Why are so many people so convinced about this? Do believe what he has said in the past; tactically he`d be crazy to go for a GE in the short term.