I wonder if Boris regrets polarising the debate a few weeks ago. It was too late to play the statesman.
He'd be home free, I suspect, if he'd not played silly buggers. Prorogation and escalating the language was a strategy that destroyed goodwill leading to this, didn't stop the Benn Act, was defeated in the courts, didn't get him an early election, wasn't required in that he got a deal despite the Benn Act, and involved lying to the Queen. Classic Dom.
So where's the constitutional, procedural experts when we need them?
Can Boris send a letter or not send a letter, then pass the legislation required for the deal and then the deal before October 31st in whcih case can the EU, letter or no letter, hold off until it all passes at which point the letter becomes moot?
He has to send the letter. The EU does not need to answer it. Or they could answer it in the negative of course.
Having sent the letter he can try to get the legislation through but I fear the momentum has been lost and that there will be a plethora of amendments such as a second vote, obligations on workers rights and environmental standards etc etc etc which means no bill will in fact be passed by the 31st.
I found that intervention from Letwin vomit inducing. He is not a stupid man. He is therefore a liar.
Hmm not sure (not about Letwin, plenty of dislike of him from hitherto allies). But about the plethora of amendments. I disagree with it but I can see the logic of getting the legislation in place first. If that occurs then I think Letwin will fall into line for the deal.
There simply isn’t trust. There is a genuine suspicion that the ERG might melt at the key moment. Now they can’t. This is good.
If that was the case the amendment could have said "the House approves the deal as soon as all legislation is passed". It didn't. It expressly says approval is withheld. Letwin is lying about all this.
Why doesn’t the Government just publish the bloody legislation? What are they trying to hide?
MPs can say all they like about yes, but no, but yes. That's the headline, I can only imagine what the public think.
The public does not care. They really don’t. They are getting on with their lives happily in the EU. Parliament are doing their job not to mess that up.
You're wrong.
The public are furious that Parliament is not doing it's job.
Nah they aren’t. Try reaching out of your own bubble.
I wonder if Boris regrets polarising the debate a few weeks ago. It was too late to play the statesman.
He'd be home free, I suspect, if he'd not played silly buggers. Prorogation and escalating the language was a strategy that destroyed goodwill leading to this, didn't stop the Benn Act, was defeated in the courts, didn't get him an early election, wasn't required in that he got a deal despite the Benn Act, and involved lying to the Queen. Classic Dom.
Quite. He really screwed up. He lost trust by playing games.
He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.
Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
So just to check are you in a state of all out war with me? I for the purposes of this discussion consider myself to be a diehard remainer.
What are the rules of engagement?
Handbags at dawn.
More like keyboards throughout waking hours.
Depends. I object quite strongly to some of the language used. Now we are on an internet chat room and all should be fine but for some reason some of the language used I believe needs calling on. I'm not sure there should be free passes because we could of course just say "oh that's just HYUFD being HYUFD" but I think given past events where similar language has been used, one has to draw the line. Perhaps I'm overreacting.
And happy to translate to real life any moment anyone wants.
I think using the language of being "at all out war" is wholly inappropriate and disgraceful. I am unsure if the best response is mockery or complaining.
MPs can say all they like about yes, but no, but yes. That's the headline, I can only imagine what the public think.
The public does not care. They really don’t. They are getting on with their lives happily in the EU. Parliament are doing their job not to mess that up.
You're wrong.
The public are furious that Parliament is not doing it's job.
No we are not, we just want it done properly in order to give us a post Brexit arrangement that secures manufacturing, the NHS and a short immigration queue at a Spanish airport come the summer.
So where's the constitutional, procedural experts when we need them?
Can Boris send a letter or not send a letter, then pass the legislation required for the deal and then the deal before October 31st in whcih case can the EU, letter or no letter, hold off until it all passes at which point the letter becomes moot?
He has to send the letter. The EU does not need to answer it. Or they could answer it in the negative of course.
Having sent the letter he can try to get the legislation through but I fear the momentum has been lost and that there will be a plethora of amendments such as a second vote, obligations on workers rights and environmental standards etc etc etc which means no bill will in fact be passed by the 31st.
I found that intervention from Letwin vomit inducing. He is not a stupid man. He is therefore a liar.
Hmm not sure (not about Letwin, plenty of dislike of him from hitherto allies). But about the plethora of amendments. I disagree with it but I can see the logic of getting the legislation in place first. If that occurs then I think Letwin will fall into line for the deal.
No need to debate it - he has said plainly that he will.
He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.
Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
HYUFD, the other day people were complimenting you for not being abusive to those you disagree with.
A phrase like “enemies of the people” is abusive at best, incendiary too, and not becoming of you.
I could not care, it aptly describes the diehard Remainers and if they do not like it tough, they should vote for the Brexit Deal. Enough is enough!!
So, what would your message be to the Diehard Remainers on this site? I’m an EFTA/EEA man at heart myself but, forced to choose (as your party has made me do) I’m a Diehard Remainer. So what next?
I wonder if Boris regrets polarising the debate a few weeks ago. It was too late to play the statesman.
He'd be home free, I suspect, if he'd not played silly buggers. Prorogation and escalating the language was a strategy that destroyed goodwill leading to this, didn't stop the Benn Act, was defeated in the courts, didn't get him an early election, wasn't required in that he got a deal despite the Benn Act, and involved lying to the Queen. Classic Dom.
Yes, the appointment of Cummings was a disaster - completely poisoned everything and destroyed trust. The weird things is that we were told that Boris could achieve great things on his own through his charisma and sheer force of personality. So why the need for some destructive backroom geek? Silly.
So where's the constitutional, procedural experts when we need them?
Can Boris send a letter or not send a letter, then pass the legislation required for the deal and then the deal before October 31st in whcih case can the EU, letter or no letter, hold off until it all passes at which point the letter becomes moot?
He has to send the letter. The EU does not need to answer it. Or they could answer it in the negative of course.
Having sent the letter he can try to get the legislation through but I fear the momentum has been lost and that there will be a plethora of amendments such as a second vote, obligations on workers rights and environmental standards etc etc etc which means no bill will in fact be passed by the 31st.
I found that intervention from Letwin vomit inducing. He is not a stupid man. He is therefore a liar.
Letwin is a privileged fuckwit who thinks he's a genius, thinks he is born to rule and has an ego which he likes to be stoked.
He is therefore a useful fuckwit for more intelligent and ruthless people.
Why the Conservative party has never dispensed with his services is a mystery while his prominence is also an indictment of what safe seats can bring.
MPs can say all they like about yes, but no, but yes. That's the headline, I can only imagine what the public think.
The public does not care. They really don’t. They are getting on with their lives happily in the EU. Parliament are doing their job not to mess that up.
You're wrong.
The public are furious that Parliament is not doing it's job.
Ah, Groundhog Day with Brexiters' idea of "The public" again.
Bercow will rule on Monday whether that is in order or not (Same vote on same thing in same session)
What about that Scots legal decision? Where does Boris stand with that? Are we going to see Lothians Police turning up in Downing Street with a warrant? If so what should the Met do?
So where's the constitutional, procedural experts when we need them?
Can Boris send a letter or not send a letter, then pass the legislation required for the deal and then the deal before October 31st in whcih case can the EU, letter or no letter, hold off until it all passes at which point the letter becomes moot?
He has to send the letter. The EU does not need to answer it. Or they could answer it in the negative of course.
Having sent the letter he can try to get the legislation through but I fear the momentum has been lost and that there will be a plethora of amendments such as a second vote, obligations on workers rights and environmental standards etc etc etc which means no bill will in fact be passed by the 31st.
I found that intervention from Letwin vomit inducing. He is not a stupid man. He is therefore a liar.
Letwin is a privileged fuckwit who thinks he's a genius, thinks he is born to rule and has an ego which he likes to be stoked.
He is therefore a useful fuckwit for more intelligent and ruthless people.
Why the Conservative party has never dispensed with his services is a mystery while his prominence is also an indictment of what safe seats can bring.
Just remember I was in the Letwin = a total moron camp before it was fashionable.
Surely there arent the numbers regardless? How many of the independent tories prefer a referendum to a deal? And Labour have a fair few who would be against.
Bercow will rule on Monday whether that is in order or not (Same vote on same thing in same session)
Can't he just tell us now?
But since the amendment changed it from a MV into not a MV, surely that's acceptable?
And in any case if there are the votes for it, there is always the suspend standing orders to allow it move, which the Letwins and Benns of the world have used for their own shenanigans.
BoZo sacked 21 of his backbenchers, and lost every crucial vote.
He shafted the DUP, and got kneecapped.
What a "winner"...
I am resigned to Brexit happening before 31st October. However one last humiliation of Johnson whose theatrical framing of 'Super Saturday' with full coverage on BBC1 to enjoy the full impact of his expected victory was joyous.
Johnson's moment will come, and soon, but it wasn't on the first Saturday Parliament has sat since the Falklands War. Huzzah for that!
For the MV they can hope to bring on boards these from the abstentions: Leigh, Spelman, Champion, Onn. Maybe Cooper and Milton?
....and from today's yes votes: Boles, Clarke, Gauke, Letwin, Lloyd, Rudd, Sandbach. +poss few more Lab (eg Smeeth and Snell voted for Letwin, but said they would vote for the deal). Stringer?
Guessing not Greening, though I don't think she's said it outright. Hammond I have no idea, he seems to be absolutely on the edge.
That makes 317 plus the unknowns. 318 is needed to pass (remember the tellers).
So where's the constitutional, procedural experts when we need them?
Can Boris send a letter or not send a letter, then pass the legislation required for the deal and then the deal before October 31st in whcih case can the EU, letter or no letter, hold off until it all passes at which point the letter becomes moot?
He has to send the letter. The EU does not need to answer it. Or they could answer it in the negative of course.
Having sent the letter he can try to get the legislation through but I fear the momentum has been lost and that there will be a plethora of amendments such as a second vote, obligations on workers rights and environmental standards etc etc etc which means no bill will in fact be passed by the 31st.
I found that intervention from Letwin vomit inducing. He is not a stupid man. He is therefore a liar.
Letwin is a privileged fuckwit who thinks he's a genius, thinks he is born to rule and has an ego which he likes to be stoked.
He is therefore a useful fuckwit for more intelligent and ruthless people.
Why the Conservative party has never dispensed with his services is a mystery while his prominence is also an indictment of what safe seats can bring.
Just remember I was in the Letwin = a total moron camp before it was fashionable.
I've been there for years.
To me its incredible that such an obvious fuckwit was not sent packing over a decade ago.
But since the amendment changed it from a MV into not a MV, surely that's acceptable?
And in any case if there are the votes for it, there is always the suspend standing orders to allow it move, which the Letwins and Benns of the world have used for their own shenanigans.
If Boris ever wins a majority, I hope he stacks the constitutional deck so far in favour of the Tories that the opposition won't see daylight for a hundred years. If one side wants to play silly games, then so can the other.
If Boris ever wins a majority, I hope he stacks the constitutional deck so far in favour of the Tories that the opposition won't see daylight for a hundred years. If one side wants to play silly games, then so can the other.
So how would that work?
I see the Brexiteers are openly supportive of Fascism now. I guess it was just a matter of time.
If Boris ever wins a majority, I hope he stacks the constitutional deck so far in favour of the Tories that the opposition won't see daylight for a hundred years. If one side wants to play silly games, then so can the other.
If Boris ever wins a majority, I hope he stacks the constitutional deck so far in favour of the Tories that the opposition won't see daylight for a hundred years. If one side wants to play silly games, then so can the other.
So how would that work?
Just wait and see.
At least you’re honest about your fascism. This was never about “democracy” was it?
You sack 21 of your own team and then throw the rather hard nosed people propping up your Government under a bus. Did he really think his posh affable eccentric oaf thing would work on Arlene Foster and a group of people with very little to lose and every reason to hate him viscerally?
And that is where you are wrong. Boris seems to have been quite clear that a chance for a MV has been missed, and without a MV no approval has occurred.
I am just working on what is being reported on here. If it has not been passed as people are saying then of course it is different.
Am I missing something? We have a deal agreed. Parliament needs to debate this and then vote on it. The Lords is another matter. Can't this be managed by the 31st?
If Boris ever wins a majority, I hope he stacks the constitutional deck so far in favour of the Tories that the opposition won't see daylight for a hundred years. If one side wants to play silly games, then so can the other.
I don't quite see how you get from one side playing silly games to thinking that stacking the constitutional deck in favour of one party is a proportionate and reasonable response. I think Letwin was dishonest about the effect of his amendment, I think it negated the purpose of the original motion, but moving amendments is not exactly constitutional tinkering to give partisan advantage, as you are suggesting.
To borrow a phrase I am fond of, just because I am in the wrong when I stand on your toe deliberately, that doesnt mean you are justified to punch me in the face.
If Boris ever wins a majority, I hope he stacks the constitutional deck so far in favour of the Tories that the opposition won't see daylight for a hundred years. If one side wants to play silly games, then so can the other.
So how would that work?
Just wait and see.
So the Tories still hold a commanding lead in seats on 10% of the vote? Hmm? That would make Putin's Russia look like a democracy?
If Boris ever wins a majority, I hope he stacks the constitutional deck so far in favour of the Tories that the opposition won't see daylight for a hundred years. If one side wants to play silly games, then so can the other.
So how would that work?
I see the Brexiteers are openly supportive of Fascism now. I guess it was just a matter of time.
Really? That comment sounded quite hostile towards Corbyn.
MPs can say all they like about yes, but no, but yes. That's the headline, I can only imagine what the public think.
The public does not care. They really don’t. They are getting on with their lives happily in the EU. Parliament are doing their job not to mess that up.
You're wrong.
The public are furious that Parliament is not doing it's job.
No we are not, we just want it done properly in order to give us a post Brexit arrangement that secures manufacturing, the NHS and a short immigration queue at a Spanish airport come the summer.
I agree that’s the public. Even leavers get bored and just switch off.
The papers in a different place, I think they would say the treaty of Versailles is a good deal in current mood.
And that sums it up as history books probably will. The treaty of Versailles proved to be a WW2 stoking disaster. Tory’s don’t realise what’s getting destroyed in this beat the remainers with any Brexit craze, DUP and the union under the bus, judges in the dock, moderates purged, business can go fuck itself, a pillar of conservatism our nation needs is crumbling in all this 😟😕🙁
Am I missing something? We have a deal agreed. Parliament needs to debate this and then vote on it. The Lords is another matter. Can't this be managed by the 31st?
Letwin is waiting for the Government to publish the bill. We all are.
This might be a stupid question but what happens if there's an amendment on Monday the Government don't like?
Vote it down? :-)
Guessing a referendum amendment would fail, but a permanent UK customs union maybe? More months of negotiations needed, and multi-month extension also.
I thought the Beeb earlier said that they couldn't amend the substance of the deal as part of the WAIB?
Technically speaking the amendment doesn't require him to send a letter does it, just that the amendment means the Benn Act has not been superceded and so must be complied with by sending a letter? Approving the amendment has that same effect, but was not itself officially about him needing to send any letter?
Am I missing something? We have a deal agreed. Parliament needs to debate this and then vote on it. The Lords is another matter. Can't this be managed by the 31st?
Maybe. But after arguing that a MV was needed to approve a deal parliament now says a MV is not enough. I guess the drafting of the amendment putting a MV in was not as superbly crafted as claimed.
If Boris ever wins a majority, I hope he stacks the constitutional deck so far in favour of the Tories that the opposition won't see daylight for a hundred years. If one side wants to play silly games, then so can the other.
So how would that work?
Just wait and see.
At least you’re honest about your fascism. This was never about “democracy” was it?
I voted Remain, but I want to see Brexit concluded by passing this deal. When individual moronic MPs can wreck even the basic concept of a yes or no vote and the Speaker is essential the "MP for Remainia", then something drastic has to change.
Like I say, I hope the next Tory PM with a majority remembers ever single one of these contemptible tricks and repays them a thousandfold.
You sack 21 of your own team and then throw the rather hard nosed people propping up your Government under a bus. Did he really think his posh affable eccentric oaf thing would work on Arlene Foster and a group of people with very little to lose and every reason to hate him viscerally?
imo this all comes down to the border. The one in NI not the Irish Sea. Reality hit Boris like it hit May and everyone else. The UK government simply cannot (imo again) embark upon a path whereby the result could be a hard border in NI. Hence just about anything, and certainly including the actions you described, were preferable to that.
Either he's playing the word 'negotiate" and having a few hours of childish playabout before sending, or he's really going to go for the martyr option.
Boris is a person who's almost never had to face the consequences of decisions and evaded responsibility across his life, let alone never enduring privations outside his class, so I find it incredibly hard to believe he'd be happy to accept the prison diet and interior design arrangements.
You sack 21 of your own team and then throw the rather hard nosed people propping up your Government under a bus. Did he really think his posh affable eccentric oaf thing would work on Arlene Foster and a group of people with very little to lose and every reason to hate him viscerally?
On the amendment? Probably not. But he still might have the votes to get the legislation through, so he might still win out, making the point redundant.
This is what happens when the executive tries to railroad the legislature.
No sympathy whatsoever.
On the contrary, what we’ve been watching is what happens when the legislature tries to railroad the executive.
Which would be a valid point in a full separation of powers system, such as the US. In a Parliamentary system, the legislature is supposed to be supreme over the executive. (The clue is in the name “Parliamentary system”.)
Surely there arent the numbers regardless? How many of the independent tories prefer a referendum to a deal? And Labour have a fair few who would be against.
Dream on. This whole thing is being kettled into 2nd ref.
Technically speaking the amendment doesn't require him to send a letter does it, just that the amendment means the Benn Act has not been superceded and so must be complied with by sending a letter? Approving the amendment has that same effect, but was not itself officially about him needing to send any letter?
Am I missing something? We have a deal agreed. Parliament needs to debate this and then vote on it. The Lords is another matter. Can't this be managed by the 31st?
Maybe. But after arguing that a MV was needed to approve a deal parliament now says a MV is not enough. I guess the drafting of the amendment putting a MV in was not as superbly crafted as claimed.
This is nothing new. Parliament ALWAYS had to approve the legislation. The MW vote was just an extra.
If Boris ever wins a majority, I hope he stacks the constitutional deck so far in favour of the Tories that the opposition won't see daylight for a hundred years. If one side wants to play silly games, then so can the other.
So how would that work?
Just wait and see.
“...I will do such things— What they are, yet I know not, but they shall be. The terrors of the earth!”
If Boris ever wins a majority, I hope he stacks the constitutional deck so far in favour of the Tories that the opposition won't see daylight for a hundred years. If one side wants to play silly games, then so can the other.
So how would that work?
Just wait and see.
Perhaps Boris could burn down the Palace of Westminster, frame Dominic Grieve then have all his political opponents arrested. That sounds like your cup of tea.
Comments
He shafted the DUP, and got kneecapped.
What a "winner"...
He is therefore a useful fuckwit for more intelligent and ruthless people.
Why the Conservative party has never dispensed with his services is a mystery while his prominence is also an indictment of what safe seats can bring.
Impressive turnout, wish I was there.
Perhaps one after government spending on NI has been reduced to English levels.
Another classic Dom wheeze about to crash and burn...
From bean to cup, he has fucked up.
If BoZo really wanted to get his deal through, he would sack Dom live on the news
But since the amendment changed it from a MV into not a MV, surely that's acceptable?
And in any case if there are the votes for it, there is always the suspend standing orders to allow it move, which the Letwins and Benns of the world have used for their own shenanigans.
Johnson's moment will come, and soon, but it wasn't on the first Saturday Parliament has sat since the Falklands War. Huzzah for that!
For the MV they can hope to bring on boards these from the abstentions:
Leigh, Spelman, Champion, Onn. Maybe Cooper and Milton?
....and from today's yes votes:
Boles, Clarke, Gauke, Letwin, Lloyd, Rudd, Sandbach.
+poss few more Lab (eg Smeeth and Snell voted for Letwin, but said they would vote for the deal). Stringer?
Guessing not Greening, though I don't think she's said it outright. Hammond I have no idea, he seems to be absolutely on the edge.
That makes 317 plus the unknowns. 318 is needed to pass (remember the tellers).
I am about to rejoin as the party re-unites
To me its incredible that such an obvious fuckwit was not sent packing over a decade ago.
Looks a No from Bercow
https://twitter.com/wee_baldy_ian/status/1185455884253782016?s=20
https://twitter.com/RTUKnews/status/1185559860949258240?s=20
Tick Tock
I see the Brexiteers are openly supportive of Fascism now. I guess it was just a matter of time.
This was never about “democracy” was it?
To borrow a phrase I am fond of, just because I am in the wrong when I stand on your toe deliberately, that doesnt mean you are justified to punch me in the face.
And the EU sets the length in any case
The papers in a different place, I think they would say the treaty of Versailles is a good deal in current mood.
And that sums it up as history books probably will. The treaty of Versailles proved to be a WW2 stoking disaster. Tory’s don’t realise what’s getting destroyed in this beat the remainers with any Brexit craze, DUP and the union under the bus, judges in the dock, moderates purged, business can go fuck itself, a pillar of conservatism our nation needs is crumbling in all this 😟😕🙁
Surely just get on with the legislation ASAP.
He didn't say letter would not be sent.
How could it possibly be considered a Surrender Bill?
Like I say, I hope the next Tory PM with a majority remembers ever single one of these contemptible tricks and repays them a thousandfold.
EC: "For what purpose? This is getting pretty ***ing annoying"
UK: .....silence.....
Boris is a person who's almost never had to face the consequences of decisions and evaded responsibility across his life, let alone never enduring privations outside his class, so I find it incredibly hard to believe he'd be happy to accept the prison diet and interior design arrangements.
It's Article 50