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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » So the Letwin amendment gets through by a majority of 16

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    Bercow to sign the extension letter if Boris won't

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1185559786735243267?s=20
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    There are no weekend mail collections round here. With a second class stamp it won’t hit Brussels until after Halloween.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684

    Just to clarify this as I see it.

    The Benn Act said Boris must write a letter requesting an extension if Parliament had not approved a Deal by today.

    This afternoon Parliament approved a Deal

    Therefore the Benn Act falls. The terms under which it would have had legal force (no deal agreed by Parliament by today) no longer exist.

    Do yhe Benn act is now dead and we are instead looking at the wording of the Letwin amrndment to the MV.

    Idiot.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570
    edited October 2019
    kle4 said:


    This afternoon Parliament approved a Deal

    And that is where you are wrong. Boris seems to have been quite clear that a chance for a MV has been missed, and without a MV no approval has occurred.
    I am just working on what is being reported on here. If it has not been passed as people are saying then of course it is different.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    People saying WAIB introduced Monday. I have lost track of this a bit, but doesn't the queen's speech debate take precedence over everything except a VONC? You know, the very important queen's speech we had to prorogue parliament for 5 weeks for?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    Abstentions:
    Spelman, Leigh (Con); Milton (Ind Con I assume)

    Onn, Cooper, Champion, Twigg (Labour)
    Lab Noes: Barron, Flint, Mann, Fitzpatrick, Hoey, Campbell

    Tory Ayes: 11 remainers

    Didn’t champion say she was going to back the deal?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    I’m a Diehard Remainer. Where would you like to meet? Pistols or swords? Shall I have my second call yours to make arrangements?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited October 2019
    TOPPING said:

    So where's the constitutional, procedural experts when we need them?

    Can Boris send a letter or not send a letter, then pass the legislation required for the deal and then the deal before October 31st in whcih case can the EU, letter or no letter, hold off until it all passes at which point the letter becomes moot?

    Not a constitutional expert, but I think Yes. In fact the text of the letter which the PM has to send specifically says that the date can be earlier if a deal is agreed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    That will help win people over

    Diehard Remainers have thrown Leavers under the bus and refused a compromise, there is no winning people over now, it is all out civil war until Brexit is delivered
    Yeah those bloody diehard remainers.

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1185557708155568134?s=21
    If it is that bad a Brexit for NI, it would make total sense to do that.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    Just to clarify this as I see it.

    The Benn Act said Boris must write a letter requesting an extension if Parliament had not approved a Deal by today.

    This afternoon Parliament approved a Deal

    Therefore the Benn Act falls. The terms under which it would have had legal force (no deal agreed by Parliament by today) no longer exist.

    Do yhe Benn act is now dead and we are instead looking at the wording of the Letwin amrndment to the MV.

    Well you’re wrong unfortunately.
    Why? No good saying I am wrong without showing why. I thought people were saying the main Motion gad already passed. If that is thd case then I am not wrong.
    No, because the Letwin amendment means it is no longer a MV in terms of the EUWA. That’s why Rees-Mogg just announced that the government will move the MV again on Monday.
  • Just to clarify this as I see it.

    The Benn Act said Boris must write a letter requesting an extension if Parliament had not approved a Deal by today.

    This afternoon Parliament approved a Deal

    Therefore the Benn Act falls. The terms under which it would have had legal force (no deal agreed by Parliament by today) no longer exist.

    Do yhe Benn act is now dead and we are instead looking at the wording of the Letwin amrndment to the MV.

    Well you’re wrong unfortunately.
    Why? No good saying I am wrong without showing why. I thought people were saying the main Motion gad already passed. If that is thd case then I am not wrong.
    The motion AS AMENDED passed. The amendment means it did not meet approve the deal and so the Benn Act stands.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    The 10 Tory traitors to democracy who must now be expelled from the party for good!

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1185560596374343681?s=20
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    That will help win people over

    Diehard Remainers have thrown Leavers under the bus and refused a compromise, there is no winning people over now, it is all out civil war until Brexit is delivered
    Calm down! Knee-jerk reactions and extremist rhetoric will not aid any political aspirations you may have! You are very curtious and measured, which is good but talking about civil wars is not a very appealing trait....
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843
    My French wife's view on the latest delay: "FFS just go!" She's a macron voter too. Certainly in France the mood is more and more fed up, Macron may actually veto an extension this time. I could see him being the brexiteers' best friend now.

    On balance he will probably not want to waste anymore of his political capital within the EU on this if Merkel et al are adamant the other way. Could just be a very short extension given.

    Seems like this deal will pass sooner or later. Boris is a much better turd polisher than May ever was.

    All to play for during the transition period though.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    That will help win people over

    Diehard Remainers have thrown Leavers under the bus and refused a compromise, there is no winning people over now, it is all out civil war until Brexit is delivered
    Yeah those bloody diehard remainers.

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1185557708155568134?s=21
    Government can threaten referedum on Irish reunification (Jezza for one would back it)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    How would the Speaker allow to be brought back on Monday, what was amended today?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    I said this deal would go down by about 20.

    Very close to what has happened.

    Only 25% out 😁
    I was right, they just didn’t go four it.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    So just to check are you in a state of all out war with me? I for the purposes of this discussion consider myself to be a diehard remainer.
    What are the rules of engagement?
    Handbags at dawn.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Drutt said:

    At law, the PM now has to write a letter asking for an extension so that Parliament can debate and pass the old WA together with changes to the old political declaration to reflect the old inter-party talks.

    Imagine having the twenty-somethingth week of gilet jaune to deal with and that complete bullshit lands on your desk.

    They should just give a 2 week extension
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Could a second referendum amendment be the climax?
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    I’m a Diehard Remainer. Where would you like to meet? Pistols or swords? Shall I have my second call yours to make arrangements?
    HYUFD seems quite partial to ICBMs.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,003
    edited October 2019
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    That will help win people over

    Diehard Remainers have thrown Leavers under the bus and refused a compromise, there is no winning people over now, it is all out civil war until Brexit is delivered
    I wonder if we can have a sweepstake on which of the PB Leavers will be the first to do the 'they only have themselves to blame' schtick when a prominent Remainer is assaulted or worse?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    So just to check are you in a state of all out war with me? I for the purposes of this discussion consider myself to be a diehard remainer.
    What are the rules of engagement?
    Was going to be my next question. Before I head down to Silvermans, obvs.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847
    edited October 2019
    TOPPING said:

    So where's the constitutional, procedural experts when we need them?

    Can Boris send a letter or not send a letter, then pass the legislation required for the deal and then the deal before October 31st in whcih case can the EU, letter or no letter, hold off until it all passes at which point the letter becomes moot?

    He certainly can get that effect if the EU play ball. And they probably will, they want the deal to go through, and Id imagine only agree the extension if parliament rejects the deal.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Abstentions:
    Spelman, Leigh (Con); Milton (Ind Con I assume)

    Onn, Cooper, Champion, Twigg (Labour)
    Lab Noes: Barron, Flint, Mann, Fitzpatrick, Hoey, Campbell

    Tory Ayes: 11 remainers

    Didn’t Champion say she was going to back the deal?
    And she presumably will, as will Letwin, it doesn't mean all would reject the amendment. Just because most of those approving the amendment hope to reject the deal doesn't mean all did.

    But it is harder to be certain with some of them now.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    That will help win people over

    Diehard Remainers have thrown Leavers under the bus and refused a compromise, there is no winning people over now, it is all out civil war until Brexit is delivered
    Yeah those bloody diehard remainers.

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1185557708155568134?s=21
    I thought he said that a few days ago?

    Oh sorry, that was the other Nigel, the xenophobe with a French name.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,707
    edited October 2019
    Boris is going to write the letter in crayon, let the dog eat half and step muddy footprints over it, but still send it. Probably.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865
    TOPPING said:

    So where's the constitutional, procedural experts when we need them?

    Can Boris send a letter or not send a letter, then pass the legislation required for the deal and then the deal before October 31st in whcih case can the EU, letter or no letter, hold off until it all passes at which point the letter becomes moot?

    He has to send the letter. The EU does not need to answer it. Or they could answer it in the negative of course.

    Having sent the letter he can try to get the legislation through but I fear the momentum has been lost and that there will be a plethora of amendments such as a second vote, obligations on workers rights and environmental standards etc etc etc which means no bill will in fact be passed by the 31st.

    I found that intervention from Letwin vomit inducing. He is not a stupid man. He is therefore a liar.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    HYUFD said:

    The 10 Tory traitors to democracy who must now be expelled from the party for good!

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1185560596374343681?s=20

    I'd hold off at least to see if Letwin is right after all and they now have the numbers to pass the legislation!
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    So just to check are you in a state of all out war with me? I for the purposes of this discussion consider myself to be a diehard remainer.
    I have to tell you now that no such undertaking was received ...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    The government is really doing all they can to avoid publishing the WA Bill. What on earth is in it that is so contentious?
  • The EU must despair and if they do not indicate any extension before the 31st surely Letwin has made no deal very likely
  • One good thing.
    We do get to find out what the brilliant wheeze to try to circumvent the Benn act is.
    (Assuming it's a second letter, how petulant is it going to be?)
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    That will help win people over

    Diehard Remainers have thrown Leavers under the bus and refused a compromise, there is no winning people over now, it is all out civil war until Brexit is delivered
    I wonder if we can have a sweepstake on which of the PB Leavers will be the first to do the 'they only have themselves to blame' schtick when a prominent Remainer is assaulted or worse?
    Sounds like you're the one excited by the prospect.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    That will help win people over

    Diehard Remainers have thrown Leavers under the bus and refused a compromise, there is no winning people over now, it is all out civil war until Brexit is delivered
    Yeah those bloody diehard remainers.

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1185557708155568134?s=21
    You have to admire their obstinacy/consistency. How many times on here have said that the DUP could be won over?
  • Macron should just say "Non" to any extension.

    Parliament can get on with its job then.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,129
    edited October 2019
    I would be shocked if during all these talks between Team Boris and the EU over the new deal the Benn Act wasn't discussed and how to react should it come into play.
  • TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    So just to check are you in a state of all out war with me? I for the purposes of this discussion consider myself to be a diehard remainer.
    What are the rules of engagement?
    Handbags at dawn.
    More like keyboards throughout waking hours.
  • rpjs said:

    Just to clarify this as I see it.

    The Benn Act said Boris must write a letter requesting an extension if Parliament had not approved a Deal by today.

    This afternoon Parliament approved a Deal

    Therefore the Benn Act falls. The terms under which it would have had legal force (no deal agreed by Parliament by today) no longer exist.

    Do yhe Benn act is now dead and we are instead looking at the wording of the Letwin amrndment to the MV.

    Well you’re wrong unfortunately.
    Why? No good saying I am wrong without showing why. I thought people were saying the main Motion gad already passed. If that is thd case then I am not wrong.
    No, because the Letwin amendment means it is no longer a MV in terms of the EUWA. That’s why Rees-Mogg just announced that the government will move the MV again on Monday.
    What is the point of moving it again on Monday?
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438
    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Would have been a government majority of 4 with the DUP.

    If Boris could have made any changes to the WA which kept the DUP on board I'm sure he would have. As it was the only changes he could come up with to justify getting the ERG on board was too much for them.
    He got round of applause and pats on back from EU leaders for being surrender monkey and giving them what they wanted, they offered it two years ago and May and Boris both said no Conservative and unionist could agree to such a thing. He’s already surrendered far too much.

    He surrendered because he hasn’t the bottle to no deal.
  • Commission takes note of Letwin and it is upto the Government to indicate its request
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Today the public got to see why MPs should never have been allowed a vote on the deal.

    Our PM agrees a deal with the EU. That’s it
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Sandpit said:

    How would the Speaker allow to be brought back on Monday, what was amended today?
    I think the argument is that the Letwin amendment meant the substantive motion was no longer an MV, so it’s in order to resubmit the MV. MPs are arguing with Bercow about that right now. Bercow has just said he will rule on this on Monday after taking advice.
  • HYUFD said:

    The 10 Tory traitors to democracy who must now be expelled from the party for good!

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1185560596374343681?s=20

    I would say that's a pretty good sign for the PM that the list of Tory rebels on MV4 itself is no greater.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    The 6 Labour heroes, patriots and democrats who voted against Letwin

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1185560978408329217?s=20
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900

    One good thing.
    We do get to find out what the brilliant wheeze to try to circumvent the Benn act is.
    (Assuming it's a second letter, how petulant is it going to be?)

    I don't think they need one: send the extension letter, pass MV Monday, withdraw extension letter.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Jonathan said:

    I wonder if Boris regrets polarising the debate a few weeks ago. It was too late to play the statesman.

    I doubt that speech made any difference
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited October 2019
    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    So where's the constitutional, procedural experts when we need them?

    Can Boris send a letter or not send a letter, then pass the legislation required for the deal and then the deal before October 31st in whcih case can the EU, letter or no letter, hold off until it all passes at which point the letter becomes moot?

    He has to send the letter. The EU does not need to answer it. Or they could answer it in the negative of course.

    Having sent the letter he can try to get the legislation through but I fear the momentum has been lost and that there will be a plethora of amendments such as a second vote, obligations on workers rights and environmental standards etc etc etc which means no bill will in fact be passed by the 31st.

    I found that intervention from Letwin vomit inducing. He is not a stupid man. He is therefore a liar.
    If the EU say "no extension" then the amendments become largely void. It becomes take this deal or there is no deal, your choice and Parliament will have no real choice but to do as the EU wants.
  • GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    That will help win people over

    Diehard Remainers have thrown Leavers under the bus and refused a compromise, there is no winning people over now, it is all out civil war until Brexit is delivered
    Yeah those bloody diehard remainers.

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1185557708155568134?s=21
    Government can threaten referedum on Irish reunification (Jezza for one would back it)
    Will the Republic have any say in this?
  • rpjs said:

    Just to clarify this as I see it.

    The Benn Act said Boris must write a letter requesting an extension if Parliament had not approved a Deal by today.

    This afternoon Parliament approved a Deal

    Therefore the Benn Act falls. The terms under which it would have had legal force (no deal agreed by Parliament by today) no longer exist.

    Do yhe Benn act is now dead and we are instead looking at the wording of the Letwin amrndment to the MV.

    Well you’re wrong unfortunately.
    Why? No good saying I am wrong without showing why. I thought people were saying the main Motion gad already passed. If that is thd case then I am not wrong.
    No, because the Letwin amendment means it is no longer a MV in terms of the EUWA. That’s why Rees-Mogg just announced that the government will move the MV again on Monday.
    What is the point of moving it again on Monday?
    It is on Tuesday
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    isam said:

    Today the public got to see why MPs should never have been allowed a vote on the deal.

    Our PM agrees a deal with the EU. That’s it

    Thanks Gina! :D
  • HYUFD said:

    The 10 Tory traitors to democracy who must now be expelled from the party for good!

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1185560596374343681?s=20

    I would say that's a pretty good sign for the PM that the list of Tory rebels on MV4 itself is no greater.
    Yes, for example I was surprised that Richard Harrington (who's a passionate opponent of no-deal and would much prefer us to Remain) voted against Letwin.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    isam said:

    Today the public got to see why MPs should never have been allowed a vote on the deal.

    Our PM agrees a deal with the EU. That’s it

    It is the law that MPs can demand a vote on the ratification of any international treaty.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    Commission takes note of Letwin and it is upto the Government to indicate its request

    The whole country will descend into total chaos next week I think.
  • I would be shocked if during all these talks between Team Boris and the EU over the new deal the Benn Act wasn't discussed and how to react should it come into play.

    Quite. A lot of British political debate appears to assume news media is local only.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    rpjs said:

    Just to clarify this as I see it.

    The Benn Act said Boris must write a letter requesting an extension if Parliament had not approved a Deal by today.

    This afternoon Parliament approved a Deal

    Therefore the Benn Act falls. The terms under which it would have had legal force (no deal agreed by Parliament by today) no longer exist.

    Do yhe Benn act is now dead and we are instead looking at the wording of the Letwin amrndment to the MV.

    Well you’re wrong unfortunately.
    Why? No good saying I am wrong without showing why. I thought people were saying the main Motion gad already passed. If that is thd case then I am not wrong.
    No, because the Letwin amendment means it is no longer a MV in terms of the EUWA. That’s why Rees-Mogg just announced that the government will move the MV again on Monday.
    What is the point of moving it again on Monday?
    If an extension has been granted then no one can reject it with the excuse we might accidentally no deal. It would be final decision, do you back it or not (or referendum).
  • One good thing.
    We do get to find out what the brilliant wheeze to try to circumvent the Benn act is.
    (Assuming it's a second letter, how petulant is it going to be?)

    Boris can be statesmanlike in the second letter, he has no need to be petulant. Maybe even apologise to the EU for the actions of Parliament.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,215
    TV licenses !
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    rpjs said:

    Just to clarify this as I see it.

    The Benn Act said Boris must write a letter requesting an extension if Parliament had not approved a Deal by today.

    This afternoon Parliament approved a Deal

    Therefore the Benn Act falls. The terms under which it would have had legal force (no deal agreed by Parliament by today) no longer exist.

    Do yhe Benn act is now dead and we are instead looking at the wording of the Letwin amrndment to the MV.

    Well you’re wrong unfortunately.
    Why? No good saying I am wrong without showing why. I thought people were saying the main Motion gad already passed. If that is thd case then I am not wrong.
    No, because the Letwin amendment means it is no longer a MV in terms of the EUWA. That’s why Rees-Mogg just announced that the government will move the MV again on Monday.
    What is the point of moving it again on Monday?
    Maybe the horse will sing.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    rpjs said:

    Sandpit said:

    How would the Speaker allow to be brought back on Monday, what was amended today?
    I think the argument is that the Letwin amendment meant the substantive motion was no longer an MV, so it’s in order to resubmit the MV. MPs are arguing with Bercow about that right now. Bercow has just said he will rule on this on Monday after taking advice.
    They’re still talking? I switched off about 20 minutes ago.

    Surely, even if the Speaker allows the debate, someone will just submit the same amendment again?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited October 2019

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    That will help win people over

    Diehard Remainers have thrown Leavers under the bus and refused a compromise, there is no winning people over now, it is all out civil war until Brexit is delivered
    Yeah those bloody diehard remainers.

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1185557708155568134?s=21
    Government can threaten referedum on Irish reunification (Jezza for one would back it)
    Will the Republic have any say in this?
    Dunno. We could pay ROI to take them off our hands? :D
  • rpjs said:

    Just to clarify this as I see it.

    The Benn Act said Boris must write a letter requesting an extension if Parliament had not approved a Deal by today.

    This afternoon Parliament approved a Deal

    Therefore the Benn Act falls. The terms under which it would have had legal force (no deal agreed by Parliament by today) no longer exist.

    Do yhe Benn act is now dead and we are instead looking at the wording of the Letwin amrndment to the MV.

    Well you’re wrong unfortunately.
    Why? No good saying I am wrong without showing why. I thought people were saying the main Motion gad already passed. If that is thd case then I am not wrong.
    No, because the Letwin amendment means it is no longer a MV in terms of the EUWA. That’s why Rees-Mogg just announced that the government will move the MV again on Monday.
    What is the point of moving it again on Monday?
    It is on Tuesday
    Is this the vote or the HYUFD duelling?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865

    rpjs said:

    Just to clarify this as I see it.

    The Benn Act said Boris must write a letter requesting an extension if Parliament had not approved a Deal by today.

    This afternoon Parliament approved a Deal

    Therefore the Benn Act falls. The terms under which it would have had legal force (no deal agreed by Parliament by today) no longer exist.

    Do yhe Benn act is now dead and we are instead looking at the wording of the Letwin amrndment to the MV.

    Well you’re wrong unfortunately.
    Why? No good saying I am wrong without showing why. I thought people were saying the main Motion gad already passed. If that is thd case then I am not wrong.
    No, because the Letwin amendment means it is no longer a MV in terms of the EUWA. That’s why Rees-Mogg just announced that the government will move the MV again on Monday.
    What is the point of moving it again on Monday?
    The government need to move the WAIB through the Commons first. They will find themselves stuck in treacle and will lose vote after vote. We are now completely in the hands of the EU. Only they can rescue us from this Parliament. Its ironic, isn't it?
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    That will help win people over

    Diehard Remainers have thrown Leavers under the bus and refused a compromise, there is no winning people over now, it is all out civil war until Brexit is delivered
    Yeah those bloody diehard remainers.

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1185557708155568134?s=21
    If it is that bad a Brexit for NI, it would make total sense to do that.
    The lead negotiator on the Unionist side for the GFA backed it, after rejecting May's, so it can't be too bad.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    http://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1185562094579736576

    Your regular reminder that Rory Stewart appears to think he has a chance of being elected Mayor of London.
  • kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    The 10 Tory traitors to democracy who must now be expelled from the party for good!

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1185560596374343681?s=20

    I'd hold off at least to see if Letwin is right after all and they now have the numbers to pass the legislation!
    Knee jerk response. Most of those ex conservatives will support the deal as confirmrd by Letwin
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,616
    Andrew said:

    t.

    Do yhe Benn act is now dead and we are instead looking at the wording of the Letwin amrndment to the MV.

    Letwin rendered today's Meaningful Vote .... meaningless. The bill next week essentially becomes the MV.

    I bet there's a hell of a lot MPs pissed off with Letwin - they could have stayed in bed with a bacon sarnie and watched the rugger.

    Well, maybe not Ed Miliband.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Sandpit said:

    rpjs said:

    Sandpit said:

    How would the Speaker allow to be brought back on Monday, what was amended today?
    I think the argument is that the Letwin amendment meant the substantive motion was no longer an MV, so it’s in order to resubmit the MV. MPs are arguing with Bercow about that right now. Bercow has just said he will rule on this on Monday after taking advice.
    They’re still talking? I switched off about 20 minutes ago.

    Surely, even if the Speaker allows the debate, someone will just submit the same amendment again?
    I don’t think there’d be any point in that. A referendum motion maybe?
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,707
    Andrew said:

    One good thing.
    We do get to find out what the brilliant wheeze to try to circumvent the Benn act is.
    (Assuming it's a second letter, how petulant is it going to be?)

    I don't think they need one: send the extension letter, pass MV Monday, withdraw extension letter.
    This might be a stupid question but what happens if there's an amendment on Monday the Government don't like?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    HYUFD said:

    The 6 Labour heroes, patriots and democrats who voted against Letwin

    Please tell me this is a deliberate parody and you’re not actually quoting General Melchett.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    I wonder if Boris regrets polarising the debate a few weeks ago. It was too late to play the statesman.

    I doubt that speech made any difference
    It gave Labour MPs zero wriggle room.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    That will help win people over

    Diehard Remainers have thrown Leavers under the bus and refused a compromise, there is no winning people over now, it is all out civil war until Brexit is delivered
    Calm down! Knee-jerk reactions and extremist rhetoric will not aid any political aspirations you may have! You are very curtious and measured, which is good but talking about civil wars is not a very appealing trait....
    I assure you most of my fellow Tories have been less restrained then I when discussing the 10 Tory traitors to democracy who voted for Letwin this afternoon
  • rpjs said:

    Just to clarify this as I see it.

    The Benn Act said Boris must write a letter requesting an extension if Parliament had not approved a Deal by today.

    This afternoon Parliament approved a Deal

    Therefore the Benn Act falls. The terms under which it would have had legal force (no deal agreed by Parliament by today) no longer exist.

    Do yhe Benn act is now dead and we are instead looking at the wording of the Letwin amrndment to the MV.

    Well you’re wrong unfortunately.
    Why? No good saying I am wrong without showing why. I thought people were saying the main Motion gad already passed. If that is thd case then I am not wrong.
    No, because the Letwin amendment means it is no longer a MV in terms of the EUWA. That’s why Rees-Mogg just announced that the government will move the MV again on Monday.
    What is the point of moving it again on Monday?
    It is on Tuesday
    Is this the vote or the HYUFD duelling?
    The vote
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    That will help win people over

    Diehard Remainers have thrown Leavers under the bus and refused a compromise, there is no winning people over now, it is all out civil war until Brexit is delivered
    Calm down! Knee-jerk reactions and extremist rhetoric will not aid any political aspirations you may have! You are very curtious and measured, which is good but talking about civil wars is not a very appealing trait....
    I assure you most of my fellow Tories have been less restrained then I when discussing the 10 Tory traitors to democracy who voted for Letwin this afternoon
    What does that even mean?
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438

    Ahem. What was I saying on the previous thread?

    https://twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/status/1185554491371859968

    I trust Brexiteers will be outraged at the EU trying to strong arm parliament.
    The EU and ERG on same side bullying parliament! So this is what taking back control is !

    When Farage pointed this out the other day this blog said that’s farage done for then. Really?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    That will help win people over

    Diehard Remainers have thrown Leavers under the bus and refused a compromise, there is no winning people over now, it is all out civil war until Brexit is delivered
    Calm down! Knee-jerk reactions and extremist rhetoric will not aid any political aspirations you may have! You are very curtious and measured, which is good but talking about civil wars is not a very appealing trait....
    I assure you most of my fellow Tories have been less restrained then I when discussing the 10 Tory traitors to democracy who voted for Letwin this afternoon
    What does that even mean?
    We’ll know it’s serious when he’s back to talking about nuking Spain.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,215
    edited October 2019

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    The 10 Tory traitors to democracy who must now be expelled from the party for good!

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1185560596374343681?s=20

    I'd hold off at least to see if Letwin is right after all and they now have the numbers to pass the legislation!
    Knee jerk response. Most of those ex conservatives will support the deal as confirmrd by Letwin
    Yes Johnson struck the right tone there, Spelman will also surely vote for the deal (Was an abstention).

    Going in like Cox as @HYUFD wanted would have torpedoed the Gov't with the Letwinners !
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    So where's the constitutional, procedural experts when we need them?

    Can Boris send a letter or not send a letter, then pass the legislation required for the deal and then the deal before October 31st in whcih case can the EU, letter or no letter, hold off until it all passes at which point the letter becomes moot?

    He has to send the letter. The EU does not need to answer it. Or they could answer it in the negative of course.

    Having sent the letter he can try to get the legislation through but I fear the momentum has been lost and that there will be a plethora of amendments such as a second vote, obligations on workers rights and environmental standards etc etc etc which means no bill will in fact be passed by the 31st.

    I found that intervention from Letwin vomit inducing. He is not a stupid man. He is therefore a liar.
    Hmm not sure (not about Letwin, plenty of dislike of him from hitherto allies). But about the plethora of amendments. I disagree with it but I can see the logic of getting the legislation in place first. If that occurs then I think Letwin will fall into line for the deal.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900


    This might be a stupid question but what happens if there's an amendment on Monday the Government don't like?

    Vote it down? :-)

    Guessing a referendum amendment would fail, but a permanent UK customs union maybe? More months of negotiations needed, and multi-month extension also.
  • Henry_CHenry_C Posts: 73
    edited October 2019

    Just to clarify this as I see it.

    The Benn Act said Boris must write a letter requesting an extension if Parliament had not approved a Deal by today.

    This afternoon Parliament approved a Deal

    Therefore the Benn Act falls. The terms under which it would have had legal force (no deal agreed by Parliament by today) no longer exist.

    Wrong. The Benn Act says the PM must write a letter requesting an extension if Parliament has not approved a completed Deal by today: defined as completed under the terms of A50. Those terms say that to be completed a deal requires the OK from the EU Parliament. Check it out.

  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    That will help win people over

    Diehard Remainers have thrown Leavers under the bus and refused a compromise, there is no winning people over now, it is all out civil war until Brexit is delivered
    Calm down! Knee-jerk reactions and extremist rhetoric will not aid any political aspirations you may have! You are very curtious and measured, which is good but talking about civil wars is not a very appealing trait....
    I assure you most of my fellow Tories have been less restrained then I when discussing the 10 Tory traitors to democracy who voted for Letwin this afternoon
    You need to grow up. You are not helping by inflamatory language
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    That will help win people over

    Diehard Remainers have thrown Leavers under the bus and refused a compromise, there is no winning people over now, it is all out civil war until Brexit is delivered
    Yeah those bloody diehard remainers.

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1185557708155568134?s=21
    How would EUref2 resolve anything with Leave back up to 50% with Gold Standard Survation today?
    https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1185485165323313152?s=20
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    This is what happens when the executive tries to railroad the legislature.

    No sympathy whatsoever.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    So where's the constitutional, procedural experts when we need them?

    Can Boris send a letter or not send a letter, then pass the legislation required for the deal and then the deal before October 31st in whcih case can the EU, letter or no letter, hold off until it all passes at which point the letter becomes moot?

    He has to send the letter. The EU does not need to answer it. Or they could answer it in the negative of course.

    Having sent the letter he can try to get the legislation through but I fear the momentum has been lost and that there will be a plethora of amendments such as a second vote, obligations on workers rights and environmental standards etc etc etc which means no bill will in fact be passed by the 31st.

    I found that intervention from Letwin vomit inducing. He is not a stupid man. He is therefore a liar.
    Hmm not sure (not about Letwin, plenty of dislike of him from hitherto allies). But about the plethora of amendments. I disagree with it but I can see the logic of getting the legislation in place first. If that occurs then I think Letwin will fall into line for the deal.
    He may well do but Parliament won't.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    So where's the constitutional, procedural experts when we need them?

    Can Boris send a letter or not send a letter, then pass the legislation required for the deal and then the deal before October 31st in whcih case can the EU, letter or no letter, hold off until it all passes at which point the letter becomes moot?

    He has to send the letter. The EU does not need to answer it. Or they could answer it in the negative of course.

    Having sent the letter he can try to get the legislation through but I fear the momentum has been lost and that there will be a plethora of amendments such as a second vote, obligations on workers rights and environmental standards etc etc etc which means no bill will in fact be passed by the 31st.

    I found that intervention from Letwin vomit inducing. He is not a stupid man. He is therefore a liar.
    Hmm not sure (not about Letwin, plenty of dislike of him from hitherto allies). But about the plethora of amendments. I disagree with it but I can see the logic of getting the legislation in place first. If that occurs then I think Letwin will fall into line for the deal.
    There simply isn’t trust. There is a genuine suspicion that the ERG might melt at the key moment. Now they can’t. This is good.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,129
    edited October 2019
    BBC Headline is "MPs back Brexit deal delay"

    MPs can say all they like about yes, but no, but yes. That's the headline, I can only imagine what the public think.
  • So if extension agreed and then a VoNC, how would vote differ?
    Most? of 17 independents that voted for Letwin may vote against NC.
    6 Labour might vote for NC.

    Could be close?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,387

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    That will help win people over

    Diehard Remainers have thrown Leavers under the bus and refused a compromise, there is no winning people over now, it is all out civil war until Brexit is delivered
    Calm down! Knee-jerk reactions and extremist rhetoric will not aid any political aspirations you may have! You are very curtious and measured, which is good but talking about civil wars is not a very appealing trait....
    I assure you most of my fellow Tories have been less restrained then I when discussing the 10 Tory traitors to democracy who voted for Letwin this afternoon
    You need to grow up. You are not helping by inflamatory language
    Just imagine the 'suck it up losers' rhetoric we can expect on Tuesday.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    GIN1138 said:

    Commission takes note of Letwin and it is upto the Government to indicate its request

    The whole country will descend into total chaos next week I think.
    I met a bunch of friends last night in Hertfordshire, 5 Remainers and 4 Leavers. 3 Remainers were full square behind any obstacle that can be used to delay, but the other two were pretty fed up with MPs playing games. The 2 hardcore Leavers have been completely behind Boris. Two moderate Leavers are now behind him after being worried about No Deal, and were surprisingly angry about further delay. I think MPs are just increasing anger and turnout behind Boris at the moment.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    BBC Headline is "MPs back Brexit deal delay"

    MPs can say all they like about yes, but no, but yes. That's the headline, I can only imagine what the public think.

    The public does not care. They really don’t. They are getting on with their lives happily in the EU. Parliament are doing their job not to mess that up.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    HYUFD, the other day people were complimenting you for not being abusive to those you disagree with.

    A phrase like “enemies of the people” is abusive at best, incendiary too, and not becoming of you.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917

    This is what happens when the executive tries to railroad the legislature.

    No sympathy whatsoever.

    Well I'm blowed.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1185564312888315905

    Bercow will rule on Monday whether that is in order or not (Same vote on same thing in same session)
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    GIN1138 said:

    isam said:

    Today the public got to see why MPs should never have been allowed a vote on the deal.

    Our PM agrees a deal with the EU. That’s it

    Thanks Gina! :D
    She had nothing to do with having a vote on the deal. Her court case was all about whether the PM could invoke Article 50 on his/her own.
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438

    I would be shocked if during all these talks between Team Boris and the EU over the new deal the Benn Act wasn't discussed and how to react should it come into play.

    Quite. A lot of British political debate appears to assume news media is local only.
    Lost in the noise the EU said they would grant extension for the deal to be put to British Public if it doesn’t pass parliament.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    HYUFD said:

    The 6 Labour heroes, patriots and democrats who voted against Letwin

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1185560978408329217?s=20

    All our MPs are democrats. Some are even Social Democrats, alas.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,003
    edited October 2019

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    That will help win people over

    Diehard Remainers have thrown Leavers under the bus and refused a compromise, there is no winning people over now, it is all out civil war until Brexit is delivered
    I wonder if we can have a sweepstake on which of the PB Leavers will be the first to do the 'they only have themselves to blame' schtick when a prominent Remainer is assaulted or worse?
    Sounds like you're the one excited by the prospect.
    I'll leave that to the folk who frot themselves to climax by calling people scum and traitor.

    Though who can forget the great Yoon prolapse of 2014 over imaginary Cybernat bricks through windows.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    Jonathan said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    So where's the constitutional, procedural experts when we need them?

    Can Boris send a letter or not send a letter, then pass the legislation required for the deal and then the deal before October 31st in whcih case can the EU, letter or no letter, hold off until it all passes at which point the letter becomes moot?

    He has to send the letter. The EU does not need to answer it. Or they could answer it in the negative of course.

    Having sent the letter he can try to get the legislation through but I fear the momentum has been lost and that there will be a plethora of amendments such as a second vote, obligations on workers rights and environmental standards etc etc etc which means no bill will in fact be passed by the 31st.

    I found that intervention from Letwin vomit inducing. He is not a stupid man. He is therefore a liar.
    Hmm not sure (not about Letwin, plenty of dislike of him from hitherto allies). But about the plethora of amendments. I disagree with it but I can see the logic of getting the legislation in place first. If that occurs then I think Letwin will fall into line for the deal.
    There simply isn’t trust. There is a genuine suspicion that the ERG might melt at the key moment. Now they can’t. This is good.
    If that was the case the amendment could have said "the House approves the deal as soon as all legislation is passed". It didn't. It expressly says approval is withheld. Letwin is lying about all this.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    He should be removed from office. He demeans and taints it, everyday he clings to office.
    No, we are now in a state of all out war with the diehard Remainers, so Boris has democrats fully behind him in that war.

    Go Boris!!! No surrender!!!! Diehard Remainers are the enemies of the people!!!
    So just to check are you in a state of all out war with me? I for the purposes of this discussion consider myself to be a diehard remainer.
    What are the rules of engagement?
    Handbags at dawn.
    More like keyboards throughout waking hours.
    Depends. I object quite strongly to some of the language used. Now we are on an internet chat room and all should be fine but for some reason some of the language used I believe needs calling on. I'm not sure there should be free passes because we could of course just say "oh that's just HYUFD being HYUFD" but I think given past events where similar language has been used, one has to draw the line. Perhaps I'm overreacting.

    And happy to translate to real life any moment anyone wants.
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138

    BBC Headline is "MPs back Brexit deal delay"

    MPs can say all they like about yes, but no, but yes. That's the headline, I can only imagine what the public think.

    The public does not care. They really don’t. They are getting on with their lives happily in the EU. Parliament are doing their job not to mess that up.
    You're wrong.

    The public are furious that Parliament is not doing it's job.
This discussion has been closed.