I do not see Labour supporting a GE before the 31st Oct, I think the plan is to give Johnson enough rope to hang himself with and call a GE once the honeymoon period is over, and Farage can savage Johnson for not leaving "do or die".
I think any election will produce the Conservatives as the largest party, as Labour cannot make gains in England or Scotland. That being said, I do not see how the Conservatives can govern without a majority. SNP and LDs cannot afford to be seen to prop up Johnson or any Conservative at this point.
Corbyn will promise the SNP and LDs the indyref 2 and the 2nd vote, but will campaign both for Scotland Remaining and Britain Leaving (but with Labours deal and a remain option). He will probably win Scotland and lose Brexit, which probably suits him fine as he can get on with his domestic agenda after that.
In what world do you see anything that would mean Corbyn could even register in Scotland never mind win it.
Morning Malc - Corbyn winning Scotland is the most surreal suggestion I have heard from anyone. Obviously no knowledge of Scots politics
BigG, I think he meant Indyref2, not winning a GE in Scotland.
Still with Labour on 9% in Scotland , SNP support rising etc , what would suggest Corbyn would influence anything in Scotland never mind Indyref2
Scottish labour make David McLetchies Scottish tories of 1999 look like titans
Tbf we've also reached that point with the current crop of Scottish Tories.
I don't think it would have done, there were about a hundred amendments at an average of around 25 minutes each to get through on the program motion. I'm sure Lord True had even more for the actual bill.
I *think* the actual bill could have been guillotined. But I agree, I think the filibuster was going to succeed.
Doubt it. They had until the end of Monday to get it through, and had "already" got through 10% of the amendments after 10 hours... at which pace they would've finally got done on Sunday evening.
I do not see Labour supporting a GE before the 31st Oct, I think the plan is to give Johnson enough rope to hang himself with and call a GE once the honeymoon period is over, and Farage can savage Johnson for not leaving "do or die".
I think any election will produce the Conservatives as the largest party, as Labour cannot make gains in England or Scotland. That being said, I do not see how the Conservatives can govern without a majority. SNP and LDs cannot afford to be seen to prop up Johnson or any Conservative at this point.
Corbyn will promise the SNP and LDs the indyref 2 and the 2nd vote, but will campaign both for Scotland Remaining and Britain Leaving (but with Labours deal and a remain option). He will probably win Scotland and lose Brexit, which probably suits him fine as he can get on with his domestic agenda after that.
In what world do you see anything that would mean Corbyn could even register in Scotland never mind win it.
Sorry, by win Scotland I meant the referendum, not the parliamentary seats.
Still not sure what you mean about Corbyn winning in Scotland but on Corbyn agreeing a Ref 2 he has said quite categorically he will not support it for at least for some years to come
G if it comes to him having shot at PM he will need to sign in blood that it will be on. He will have no choice.
Not sure if this got answered yesterday but does Bercows ruling that this bill does not infringe on the royal prerogative not mean that Boris can simply refuse to agree using the royal prerogative? If it does not infringe it cannot control? The PM agrees per the bill but then refuses to sign in his capacity of being the agent of HMQs full powers of foreign treaty signing?
The bill is not a treaty. No prerogative powers are in play.
Article 50 is a treaty, extending it requires the exercise of hmqs powers
I refer you to the Speaker ruling on extension to Article 50 of the previous Cooper Letwin Bill that stated that no Royal Prerogative power was required. It stands.
"As the House will recall, no Queen’s Consent was required for the contents of the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill, which was introduced in January 2017 after the UK Supreme Court decision in the Miller case. My ruling is that as no prerogative consent was required for the Bill in 2017 giving parliamentary authority to the Prime Minister to take action under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union, there is no requirement for new and separate prerogative consent to be sought for legislation in 2019 on what further action the Prime Minister should take under the same Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union."
When is Boris going to stuff the HOL with Brexit peers again?
He doesn't need to judging by Lord True's performance last night. Between him, Baroness Noakes and a couple of others I think they could talk out anything if they wanted to.
Surely the inability to deflect austerity, de-centralise our economy, exert control over non EU immigration, make their own rules for benefits for EU migrants and block EU membership for Turkey with the resultant influx of 77m Turks to old Blighty was entirely imposed on UK governments by the EU? Now those shackles are being thrown off, things are bound to get better in the far away places of which Britain Trump knows little.
:-)
Yes, no excuses now. Make Doncaster Great Again. Hope it happens, I really do.
Unless 'Great' is defined as being even poorer but with a few less foreigners about the place. In which case, I'm not so keen and I'm not sure they will be either.
Why do politicians tend to say frit instead of afraid? I dont think I have ever heard anyone other than a politician use the word, but politicians seem to prefer it to afraid/scared/frightened.
It’s because Margaret Thatcher once used the word in parliament to accuse Labour of being scared of an election.
Thanks, typically petty and unoriginal then! Perhaps Thatcher was successful for coming up with her own soundbites rather than parroting others.
Show me where Lisbon was approved by 66% and let's talk.
I mean, at that point the issue wasn't solved by referendum, rather by the House, which historically is where sovereignty lies. My point is on referenda specifically as tools of constitutional change, not representative democracy.
Which is why your point is total self-serving bollocks.
If a simple majority in Parliament can approve without a referendum then it can do so by a simple majority referendum if that is what it chooses.
If a supermajority referendum is required it should have been required consistently.
I mean, many countries pass legislation through their parliaments / senates on simple majorities and referenda on 2/3rds.
I feel my argument why may anger you, but it's because in the ideal world, your representative is supposed to be more knowledgeable about these issues than you. That is the point of representative democracy; most people have lives and things and don't want to talk and think politics all the time. So, instead, they vote for someone they trust to do it for them, abdicating that responsibility from the individuals to the representatives. So, when representatives vote, they are supposedly "experts". When the people vote, in referenda, they are not.
This sounds awfully elitist, mainly because it is, but that is what representative democracy meant for a long time. I would argue another reason we are having the problems we are is that with the introduction of the internet into society, many people feel they are now as learned, as qualified and as knowledgeable as their representatives (which in some cases they might be, and others not). This means they don't want their MPs to be someone who takes the weight of evidence and uses their personal judgement on issues in proxy of their constituents, but instead they want their representative to be the conduit through which the judgement of the constituents is shown (which is not possible because no constituency is homogeneous).
When is Boris going to stuff the HOL with Brexit peers again?
He doesn't need to judging by Lord True's performance last night. Between him, Baroness Noakes and a couple of others I think they could talk out anything if they wanted to.
But that risks the Lords going for the "nuclear option" of voting to permanently abolish the filibuster altogether (admittedly, such a motion would also be filibustered, but they'd have to give up sometime!).
They spoon feed propaganda on their northern regional subsidiary.
I'm not sure if Daisley likening the 'National Brioadcaster' to a highly politicised organ with partisan and cynical agendas is quite the hot take he hopes it is.
I do not see Labour supporting a GE before the 31st Oct, I think the plan is to give Johnson enough rope to hang himself with and call a GE once the honeymoon period is over, and Farage can savage Johnson for not leaving "do or die".
I think any election will produce the Conservatives as the largest party, as Labour cannot make gains in England or Scotland. That being said, I do not see how the Conservatives can govern without a majority. SNP and LDs cannot afford to be seen to prop up Johnson or any Conservative at this point.
Corbyn will promise the SNP and LDs the indyref 2 and the 2nd vote, but will campaign both for Scotland Remaining and Britain Leaving (but with Labours deal and a remain option). He will probably win Scotland and lose Brexit, which probably suits him fine as he can get on with his domestic agenda after that.
In what world do you see anything that would mean Corbyn could even register in Scotland never mind win it.
Sorry, by win Scotland I meant the referendum, not the parliamentary seats.
Still not sure what you mean about Corbyn winning in Scotland but on Corbyn agreeing a Ref 2 he has said quite categorically he will not support it for at least for some years to come
G if it comes to him having shot at PM he will need to sign in blood that it will be on. He will have no choice.
I don't think it would have done, there were about a hundred amendments at an average of around 25 minutes each to get through on the program motion. I'm sure Lord True had even more for the actual bill.
I *think* the actual bill could have been guillotined. But I agree, I think the filibuster was going to succeed.
Doubt it. They had until the end of Monday to get it through, and had "already" got through 10% of the amendments after 10 hours... at which pace they would've finally got done on Sunday evening.
The filibuster going on was on the guillotine motion. The guillotine motion only needed to be filibustered till Friday afternoon iirc. There would have been a whole another set of amendments for the actual bill itself.
Not sure if this got answered yesterday but does Bercows ruling that this bill does not infringe on the royal prerogative not mean that Boris can simply refuse to agree using the royal prerogative? If it does not infringe it cannot control? The PM agrees per the bill but then refuses to sign in his capacity of being the agent of HMQs full powers of foreign treaty signing?
The bill is not a treaty. No prerogative powers are in play.
Article 50 is a treaty, extending it requires the exercise of hmqs powers
I refer you to the Speaker ruling on extension to Article 50 of the previous Cooper Letwin Bill that stated that no Royal Prerogative power was required. It stands.
"As the House will recall, no Queen’s Consent was required for the contents of the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill, which was introduced in January 2017 after the UK Supreme Court decision in the Miller case. My ruling is that as no prerogative consent was required for the Bill in 2017 giving parliamentary authority to the Prime Minister to take action under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union, there is no requirement for new and separate prerogative consent to be sought for legislation in 2019 on what further action the Prime Minister should take under the same Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union."
The high Remain areas like Cambridge, Brighton, and Islington are full of the struggling masses?
So what? I didn’t say that there wasn’t working class people who voted for Brexit.
It’s no coincidence that the richest people on here are all Brexiteers is it?
Southam? Alastair Meeks? JackW???
It will be news to them that they are Brexiteers.
Insofar as one can assess the wealth of PBers, the two richest that I am aware of are 1) the Goldman Sachs employee and 2) the successful novelist and (possible) screenwriter, both of whom are Leavers. Which Remainer is richer than they?
Don’t want to get too personal, but I am pretty certain one on my Remainer list is richer than either of those Leavers.
Mr. Anabobazina, 'real' boundaries are contentious for any city. Manchester and Birmingham are indeed bigger [I'm not sure why you felt the need to include London given it's far and away the largest city].
As for Liverpool and Glasgow, Wikipedia indicates city populations of under half a million and a little over 600,000 respectively, with Leeds close to 800,000.
Boris to make a statement today saying the people must have their say in a general election.
Even if the anti No Deal Bill passes and then the FTPA passes for a general election Boris still controls the election date and could still set it for October 15th ie so he can repeal the anti No Deal Bill if he gets a majority
Kindly explain how Boris gets his two-thirds majority for a general election under the FTPA having so spectacularly failed last night?
Corbyn has said he will vote for a general election once the anti No Deal Bill passes.
Once the FTPA passes (or a simple majority vote to disapply the FTPA in this case and call a general election anyway) Boris can set the GE date before October 31st using the royal prerogative.
The Labour party determine when a motion under the FTPA will pass. They are unlikely to allow Boris to determine a date for a general election prior to 31st October.
But more accurately it seems that Boris and co have decided that as last nights act will become law they may as well stop the games trying to delay it.
Does it all just come down to the fact that the government has not had the numbers to push a deal through since the 2017 election? Since Cummings has become involved everything is about getting the numbers - deadlines to force a showdown (lost as expected), flushing the rebels out (deselect) and pushing for an election (that can be framed on a get it done basis) - which the government may win using a simple message. It’s a campaign against Corbyn and the economy is oki-ish so Boris should win.
Precisely! And the idea that Parliamentarians running chicken away from the electorate will see leavers blaming Boris and back Farage instead is just insane.
We leavers aren't illiterate morons you know! We can see what Parliament is doing!
Yes and most read mail express sun and believe every word of it
News to me that the Mail, Express and Sun circulations combined are most of 17.4 million. Over 8.7 million circulation for those three is quite impressive.
When I wonder into my corner shop I'm surprised how few papers are actually there at 7am.
The high Remain areas like Cambridge, Brighton, and Islington are full of the struggling masses?
So what? I didn’t say that there wasn’t working class people who voted for Brexit.
It’s no coincidence that the richest people on here are all Brexiteers is it?
Southam? Alastair Meeks? JackW???
It will be news to them that they are Brexiteers.
Insofar as one can assess the wealth of PBers, the two richest that I am aware of are 1) the Goldman Sachs employee and 2) the successful novelist and (possible) screenwriter, both of whom are Leavers. Which Remainer is richer than they?
Don’t want to get too personal, but I am pretty certain one on my Remainer list is richer than either of those Leavers.
I suspect the aristocrat who pleads poverty is richer than them too.
Sorry, by win Scotland I meant the referendum, not the parliamentary seats.
Still not sure what you mean about Corbyn winning in Scotland but on Corbyn agreeing a Ref 2 he has said quite categorically he will not support it for at least for some years to come
I mean I think Scotland will be in a much more likely place to stay in the union with a Labour led government than a Tory one. Corbyn doesn't have to be popular as an individual, but Labour's policies will be more popular north of the border. Sure, many independent minded people will still want independence, but the argument that "Scotland is shackled to a Tory government only the English want" is less of an immediate argument when there is no Tory government. I also don't think many Scottish Conservatives would be willing to split up the union just to escape Corbyn.
You do know that Scotland is devolved and Corbyn's policies on the NHS, education, and most anything else are not in his gift in Scotland
Yes, and I'm sure most Scots do as well, but it still will be a different atmosphere. We will see that Johnson coming in has already affected Scottish voting intentions away from Tories, even if he doesn't have sweeping powers over Scottish polity. I think a powerful line in the last indyref was "We keep getting shackled to Tory govs only England / Wales vote for" and that is less pressing an argument during a Labour government more Scots may be more (not completely) comfortable with. I assume any scottish indyref 2 will be simple majority, (although I would argue it shouldn't be, even though I think if the Scottish people want independence they should have it), and that simple majority will be harder to coalesce with a Labour PM. I could be wrong, but that is my thinking.
Why do politicians tend to say frit instead of afraid? I dont think I have ever heard anyone other than a politician use the word, but politicians seem to prefer it to afraid/scared/frightened.
It’s because Margaret Thatcher once used the word in parliament to accuse Labour of being scared of an election.
Thanks, typically petty and unoriginal then! Perhaps Thatcher was successful for coming up with her own soundbites rather than parroting others.
It was uttered at a time when a sycophant press was utterly in thrall to her, so instead of being ignored as a slightly puzzling linguistic peculiarity it was feted as if she were a new Jane Austen, ingeniously recreating and refreshing the English language.
It's irritating, but no more so than many other faddish words and phrases widely in use 'at this moment in time'.
The high Remain areas like Cambridge, Brighton, and Islington are full of the struggling masses?
So what? I didn’t say that there wasn’t working class people who voted for Brexit.
It’s no coincidence that the richest people on here are all Brexiteers is it?
Southam? Alastair Meeks? JackW???
It will be news to them that they are Brexiteers.
Insofar as one can assess the wealth of PBers, the two richest that I am aware of are 1) the Goldman Sachs employee and 2) the successful novelist and (possible) screenwriter, both of whom are Leavers. Which Remainer is richer than they?
Don’t want to get too personal, but I am pretty certain one on my Remainer list is richer than either of those Leavers.
I suspect the aristocrat who pleads poverty is richer than them too.
come off it Billy Boy as our resident euro fatcat you top the bunch :-)
Can anyone tell me if things are likely to improve here when the schools go back?
Gin was once a good poster.
Now he has followed the TGOHF, Mortimer tradition of making bullish forecasts to wind up his opponents then denying them or running away when they invariably turn out to be wrong.
Sad.
Reeeeee - lets hound Brexiteers off PB so it can be more like my twitter feed...
Yes indeed, Leavers are fair game for personal attacks on this site.
It is noticable in polling that (supposedly tolerant, liberal) Remainers are particularly disdainful of Leavers, in that a substantial number would be concerned if their children married a supporter of Brexit. The same polling also confirms that that pattern is not reciprocated to anything like the same extent by Leavers.
Yes the division in the UK may as well extend to personal relationships. I shall vet my daughter's boyfriends to ensure they are Brexiters. Fortunately my son already won't contemplate any Remainer girlfriends.
It'll save money. They can share their 'I Spy' books.
Corbyn is a crap leader with some rather unpleasant views, but compared to Johnson, he'd seem like Clement Attlee or Blair in his heyday. And for all his faults, he does at seem at least to be motivated by wanting to do good by the country, which really cannot be said of No10's current incumbent. So like Jonathan, I heartily welcome PM Corbyn, even though I'd probably regard his premiership as not being a good thing for the country in more normal times.
What utter crap.
Corbyn has done nothing but put his own interests ahead of the country's ever since he voted 3 times against the Withdrawal Agreement despite agreeing with most of it purely to divide the Tories (even Boris voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3).
But No Deal is now a reality and the vast majority of Tory MPs bar the 21 just put party before country.
As fortune would have it Jezza was there to save the day from the wreckers.
Nope, most voters opposed extension with Survation and Yougov this week, Corbyn is denying the will of the people and the people will get their revenge
Boris to make a statement today saying the people must have their say in a general election.
Even if the anti No Deal Bill passes and then the FTPA passes for a general election Boris still controls the election date and could still set it for October 15th ie so he can repeal the anti No Deal Bill if he gets a majority
Kindly explain how Boris gets his two-thirds majority for a general election under the FTPA having so spectacularly failed last night?
Corbyn has said he will vote for a general election once the anti No Deal Bill passes.
Once the FTPA passes (or a simple majority vote to disapply the FTPA in this case and call a general election anyway) Boris can set the GE date before October 31st using the royal prerogative.
The Labour party determine when a motion under the FTPA will pass. They are unlikely to allow Boris to determine a date for a general election prior to 31st October.
I am not sure it matters anymore.
Boris will just say Corbyns surrender bill prevented the UK leaving the EU
Lets see how the polling goes on all this over the next few weeks
The one thing is certain there are very many mps who are really scared of losing their seats
Boris to make a statement today saying the people must have their say in a general election.
Even if the anti No Deal Bill passes and then the FTPA passes for a general election Boris still controls the election date and could still set it for October 15th ie so he can repeal the anti No Deal Bill if he gets a majority
Kindly explain how Boris gets his two-thirds majority for a general election under the FTPA having so spectacularly failed last night?
Corbyn has said he will vote for a general election once the anti No Deal Bill passes.
Once the FTPA passes (or a simple majority vote to disapply the FTPA in this case and call a general election anyway) Boris can set the GE date before October 31st using the royal prerogative.
I think Corbyn said he will "back" an election. I don't think he ever said he would vote for one to be held before 31st October. All he has to do is "back" an election until Parliament is prorogued.
I do not see Labour supporting a GE before the 31st Oct, I think the plan is to give Johnson enough rope to hang himself with and call a GE once the honeymoon period is over, and Farage can savage Johnson for not leaving "do or die".
I think any election will produce the Conservatives as the largest party, as Labour cannot make gains in England or Scotland. That being said, I do not see how the Conservatives can govern without a majority. SNP and LDs cannot afford to be seen to prop up Johnson or any Conservative at this point.
Corbyn will promise the SNP and LDs the indyref 2 and the 2nd vote, but will campaign both for Scotland Remaining and Britain Leaving (but with Labours deal and a remain option). He will probably win Scotland and lose Brexit, which probably suits him fine as he can get on with his domestic agenda after that.
In what world do you see anything that would mean Corbyn could even register in Scotland never mind win it.
Sorry, by win Scotland I meant the referendum, not the parliamentary seats.
Still not sure what you mean about Corbyn winning in Scotland but on Corbyn agreeing a Ref 2 he has said quite categorically he will not support it for at least for some years to come
I mean I think Scotland will be in a much more likely place to stay in the union with a Labour led government than a Tory one. Corbyn doesn't have to be popular as an individual, but Labour's policies will be more popular north of the border. Sure, many independent minded people will still want independence, but the argument that "Scotland is shackled to a Tory government only the English want" is less of an immediate argument when there is no Tory government. I also don't think many Scottish Conservatives would be willing to split up the union just to escape Corbyn.
We have been shafted by many Labour governments as well, they talk big in opposition but do nothing for Scotland when in power. They are little better than Tories. The SNP have improved things greatly since they beat Labour 12 years ago and are still getting more popular. I just cannot see people being deluded back to Labour given the state of the idiots in their regional office and the donkeys at Westminster.
If Boris does not undertake the law it is for our Parliamrnt and our Courts to hold him to account, not the EU
the EU would not be holding Johnson to account, more like saying they will temporarily allow an extension (if all 27 agree!) until the UK sorts out what the position is. doesn't that make more sense than letting the UK crash out and finding out too late that the UK parliament/courts decide that it was illegal?
Can anyone tell me if things are likely to improve here when the schools go back?
Gin was once a good poster.
Now he has followed the TGOHF, Mortimer tradition of making bullish forecasts to wind up his opponents then denying them or running away when they invariably turn out to be wrong.
Sad.
Reeeeee - lets hound Brexiteers off PB so it can be more like my twitter feed...
Yes indeed, Leavers are fair game for personal attacks on this site.
It is noticable in polling that (supposedly tolerant, liberal) Remainers are particularly disdainful of Leavers, in that a substantial number would be concerned if their children married a supporter of Brexit. The same polling also confirms that that pattern is not reciprocated to anything like the same extent by Leavers.
Isn't it more likely that's because the typical leaver is portrayed as being aged 70+, and lots of people don't like the idea of their children marrying people much older than them?
No it’s because Remain voters believe they are morally superior to those who voted Leave
All Remain voters feel they are morally superior? Does that include people like HYUFD?
Why do politicians tend to say frit instead of afraid? I dont think I have ever heard anyone other than a politician use the word, but politicians seem to prefer it to afraid/scared/frightened.
It’s because Margaret Thatcher once used the word in parliament to accuse Labour of being scared of an election.
Thanks, typically petty and unoriginal then! Perhaps Thatcher was successful for coming up with her own soundbites rather than parroting others.
It was uttered at a time when a sycophant press was utterly in thrall to her, so instead of being ignored as a slightly puzzling linguistic peculiarity it was feted as if she were a new Jane Austen, ingeniously recreating and refreshing the English language.
It's irritating, but no more so than many other faddish words and phrases widely in use 'at this moment in time'.
That is entirely untrue. When she said it she was widely mocked for using an obscure Lincolnshire dialect word. There was more than a hint of snobbery in the mockery.
It was only later, as her legend and mythos grew, that her use of ‘frit’ became another admired characteristic. And the word entered the political lexicon.
I do not see Labour supporting a GE before the 31st Oct, I think the plan is to give Johnson enough rope to hang himself with and call a GE once the honeymoon period is over, and Farage can savage Johnson for not leaving "do or die".
I think any election will produce the Conservatives as the largest party, as Labour cannot make gains in England or Scotland. That being said, I do not see how the Conservatives can govern without a majority. SNP and LDs cannot afford to be seen to prop up Johnson or any Conservative at this point.
Corbyn will promise the SNP and LDs the indyref 2 and the 2nd vote, but will campaign both for Scotland Remaining and Britain Leaving (but with Labours deal and a remain option). He will probably win Scotland and lose Brexit, which probably suits him fine as he can get on with his domestic agenda after that.
In what world do you see anything that would mean Corbyn could even register in Scotland never mind win it.
Sorry, by win Scotland I meant the referendum, not the parliamentary seats.
Still not sure what you mean about Corbyn winning in Scotland but on Corbyn agreeing a Ref 2 he has said quite categorically he will not support it for at least for some years to come
G if it comes to him having shot at PM he will need to sign in blood that it will be on. He will have no choice.
I do agree on that
He can sign in blood if he likes, but he won't be able to deliver enough of the PLP in the event of an actual vote to allow a referendum.
SNP could then collapse the Corbyn-led Govt but as that would most likely allow the Tories back in, it would put them in a bind. Labour for years were able to rag the SNP for voting down Callaghan and letting Mrs T in.
I don't think it would have done, there were about a hundred amendments at an average of around 25 minutes each to get through on the program motion. I'm sure Lord True had even more for the actual bill.
I *think* the actual bill could have been guillotined. But I agree, I think the filibuster was going to succeed.
Doubt it. They had until the end of Monday to get it through, and had "already" got through 10% of the amendments after 10 hours... at which pace they would've finally got done on Sunday evening.
The filibuster going on was on the guillotine motion. The guillotine motion only needed to be filibustered till Friday afternoon iirc. There would have been a whole another set of amendments for the actual bill itself.
The stuff about a Friday deadline was swirling on Twitter, but the BBC parliament expert (Mark D'Arcy) said it wasn't true. The business/guillotine motion could've been passed at anytime until Parliament is prorogued (he anticipated it passing Saturday lunchtime) - and that business motion allowed for second/third readings of the Bill itself to happen very quickly at any time after Friday morning, with only limited time allotted for debates or amendments.
I do not see Labour supporting a GE before the 31st Oct, I think the plan is to give Johnson enough rope to hang himself with and call a GE once the honeymoon period is over, and Farage can savage Johnson for not leaving "do or die".
I think any election will produce the Conservatives as the largest party, as Labour cannot make gains in England or Scotland. That being said, I do not see how the Conservatives can govern without a majority. SNP and LDs cannot afford to be seen to prop up Johnson or any Conservative at this point.
Corbyn will promise the SNP and LDs the indyref 2 and the 2nd vote, but will campaign both for Scotland Remaining and Britain Leaving (but with Labours deal and a remain option). He will probably win Scotland and lose Brexit, which probably suits him fine as he can get on with his domestic agenda after that.
In what world do you see anything that would mean Corbyn could even register in Scotland never mind win it.
Sorry, by win Scotland I meant the referendum, not the parliamentary seats.
Still not sure what you mean about Corbyn winning in Scotland but on Corbyn agreeing a Ref 2 he has said quite categorically he will not support it for at least for some years to come
I mean I think Scotland will be in a much more likely place to stay in the union with a Labour led government than a Tory one. Corbyn doesn't have to be popular as an individual, but Labour's policies will be more popular north of the border. Sure, many independent minded people will still want independence, but the argument that "Scotland is shackled to a Tory government only the English want" is less of an immediate argument when there is no Tory government. I also don't think many Scottish Conservatives would be willing to split up the union just to escape Corbyn.
We have been shafted by many Labour governments as well, they talk big in opposition but do nothing for Scotland when in power. They are little better than Tories. The SNP have improved things greatly since they beat Labour 12 years ago and are still getting more popular. I just cannot see people being deluded back to Labour given the state of the idiots in their regional office and the donkeys at Westminster.
It doesn't need many to feel happier under Labour than Tories to prevent a majority vote for IndyRef
Boris to make a statement today saying the people must have their say in a general election.
Even if the anti No Deal Bill passes and then the FTPA passes for a general election Boris still controls the election date and could still set it for October 15th ie so he can repeal the anti No Deal Bill if he gets a majority
Kindly explain how Boris gets his two-thirds majority for a general election under the FTPA having so spectacularly failed last night?
Corbyn has said he will vote for a general election once the anti No Deal Bill passes.
Once the FTPA passes (or a simple majority vote to disapply the FTPA in this case and call a general election anyway) Boris can set the GE date before October 31st using the royal prerogative.
The Labour party determine when a motion under the FTPA will pass. They are unlikely to allow Boris to determine a date for a general election prior to 31st October.
Labour are not going to VONC Boris before Parliament is prorogued.
Nor can Boris really ask for an election next week as his attempt yesterday failed miserably,
I suspect the biggest mistake Boris made this week was asking for an election last night.
The high Remain areas like Cambridge, Brighton, and Islington are full of the struggling masses?
So what? I didn’t say that there wasn’t working class people who voted for Brexit.
It’s no coincidence that the richest people on here are all Brexiteers is it?
Southam? Alastair Meeks? JackW???
It will be news to them that they are Brexiteers.
Insofar as one can assess the wealth of PBers, the two richest that I am aware of are 1) the Goldman Sachs employee and 2) the successful novelist and (possible) screenwriter, both of whom are Leavers. Which Remainer is richer than they?
Don’t want to get too personal, but I am pretty certain one on my Remainer list is richer than either of those Leavers.
Mike should make it a precondition of posting that one enters one's take home pay at the foot of each post.
But more accurately it seems that Boris and co have decided that as last nights act will become law they may as well stop the games trying to delay it.
Does it all just come down to the fact that the government has not had the numbers to push a deal through since the 2017 election? Since Cummings has become involved everything is about getting the numbers - deadlines to force a showdown (lost as expected), flushing the rebels out (deselect) and pushing for an election (that can be framed on a get it done basis) - which the government may win using a simple message. It’s a campaign against Corbyn and the economy is oki-ish so Boris should win.
Precisely! And the idea that Parliamentarians running chicken away from the electorate will see leavers blaming Boris and back Farage instead is just insane.
We leavers aren't illiterate morons you know! We can see what Parliament is doing!
Yes and most read mail express sun and believe every word of it
News to me that the Mail, Express and Sun circulations combined are most of 17.4 million. Over 8.7 million circulation for those three is quite impressive.
When I wonder into my corner shop I'm surprised how few papers are actually there at 7am.
Very (scarily) few people buy papers nowadays.
They read them online even the 70+ as it’s cheaper and saving having to put it in the right recycle bin.
Corbyn is a crap leader with some rather unpleasant views, but compared to Johnson, he'd seem like Clement Attlee or Blair in his heyday. And for all his faults, he does at seem at least to be motivated by wanting to do good by the country, which really cannot be said of No10's current incumbent. So like Jonathan, I heartily welcome PM Corbyn, even though I'd probably regard his premiership as not being a good thing for the country in more normal times.
What utter crap.
Corbyn has done nothing but put his own interests ahead of the country's ever since he voted 3 times against the Withdrawal Agreement despite agreeing with most of it purely to divide the Tories (even Boris voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3).
But No Deal is now a reality and the vast majority of Tory MPs bar the 21 just put party before country.
As fortune would have it Jezza was there to save the day from the wreckers.
Nope, most voters opposed extension with Survation and Yougov this week, Corbyn is denying the will of the people and the people will get their revenge
Morning me old mucker. I don't think Jezza will mind that too much. As we have rehearsed on here many times at a GE the government is elected on 30-odd percent of the vote. Hence at any one time the will of the people is against the government. The only people that matter to any party is the 30-40% of the electorate that will vote for them. Jezza, if he refuses an election on Monday, will be satisfying his electorate, his people.
Opinion polls describing what "the people" want Brexit-wise are for direct democracy. But we are now back in the world of parliamentary democracy.
But more accurately it seems that Boris and co have decided that as last nights act will become law they may as well stop the games trying to delay it.
Does it all just come down to the fact that the government has not had the numbers to push a deal through since the 2017 election? Since Cummings has become involved everything is about getting the numbers - deadlines to force a showdown (lost as expected), flushing the rebels out (deselect) and pushing for an election (that can be framed on a get it done basis) - which the government may win using a simple message. It’s a campaign against Corbyn and the economy is oki-ish so Boris should win.
Precisely! And the idea that Parliamentarians running chicken away from the electorate will see leavers blaming Boris and back Farage instead is just insane.
We leavers aren't illiterate morons you know! We can see what Parliament is doing!
Yes and most read mail express sun and believe every word of it
News to me that the Mail, Express and Sun circulations combined are most of 17.4 million. Over 8.7 million circulation for those three is quite impressive.
When I wonder into my corner shop I'm surprised how few papers are actually there at 7am.
Very (scarily) few people buy papers nowadays.
papers sell very well, it's just people buy them from supermarkets more than corner shops these days
This is the first time I have seen Farage demands for him to stand down TBP in conservative seats.
It looks as if we may be moving to a Boris-Farage agreement !!!!
I think that would likely end in tears for the Conservatives; some who aren't quite baulking at the kicking out of Ken Clarke will baulk at a Farage pact. I also think some (not many, but when you have no MPs every vote counts) BXP voters would go back to UKIP in that event, and if UKIP can stand in enough seats, that might be enough to prevent BXP winning some places.
Corbyn is a crap leader with some rather unpleasant views, but compared to Johnson, he'd seem like Clement Attlee or Blair in his heyday. And for all his faults, he does at seem at least to be motivated by wanting to do good by the country, which really cannot be said of No10's current incumbent. So like Jonathan, I heartily welcome PM Corbyn, even though I'd probably regard his premiership as not being a good thing for the country in more normal times.
And the only way he gets there is via an election which he just blocked. Genius.
Because nobody trusts Cummings and his pocket Jester not to alter the date.
There will be a GE soon. At a time of Corbyns choosing thanks to Cummings"Genius" be patient.
Corbyn is a crap leader with some rather unpleasant views, but compared to Johnson, he'd seem like Clement Attlee or Blair in his heyday. And for all his faults, he does at seem at least to be motivated by wanting to do good by the country, which really cannot be said of No10's current incumbent. So like Jonathan, I heartily welcome PM Corbyn, even though I'd probably regard his premiership as not being a good thing for the country in more normal times.
And the only way he gets there is via an election which he just blocked. Genius.
Because nobody trusts Cummings and his pocket Jester not to alter the date.
There will be a GE soon. At a time of Corbyns choosing thanks to Cummings"Genius" be patient.
If a bill is being passed which has specific dates for extending article 50 I am pretty sure a way could have been found to agree on a specific date for the election, and make it enforceable.
Any election, deal, indyref or people's vote will be won on the very margins of established voting patterns. I think that whilst lots of politicians should worry about being "too clever by half" that FPTP is a fickle thing, and that even a 30-35% showing for the Conservatives is no guarantee of a majority in the House. Every little counts at the moment, and it is the Conservatives and Johnson committing unforced errors, not the LOTO and not the other opposition parties.
Sorry, by win Scotland I meant the referendum, not the parliamentary seats.
Still not sure what you mean about Corbyn winning in Scotland but on Corbyn agreeing a Ref 2 he has said quite categorically he will not support it for at least for some years to come
I mean I think Scotland will be in a much more likely place to stay in the union with a Labour led government than a Tory one. Corbyn doesn't have to be popular as an individual, but Labour's policies will be more popular north of the border. Sure, many independent minded people will still want independence, but the argument that "Scotland is shackled to a Tory government only the English want" is less of an immediate argument when there is no Tory government. I also don't think many Scottish Conservatives would be willing to split up the union just to escape Corbyn.
You do know that Scotland is devolved and Corbyn's policies on the NHS, education, and most anything else are not in his gift in Scotland
Yes, and I'm sure most Scots do as well, but it still will be a different atmosphere. We will see that Johnson coming in has already affected Scottish voting intentions away from Tories, even if he doesn't have sweeping powers over Scottish polity. I think a powerful line in the last indyref was "We keep getting shackled to Tory govs only England / Wales vote for" and that is less pressing an argument during a Labour government more Scots may be more (not completely) comfortable with. I assume any scottish indyref 2 will be simple majority, (although I would argue it shouldn't be, even though I think if the Scottish people want independence they should have it), and that simple majority will be harder to coalesce with a Labour PM. I could be wrong, but that is my thinking.
In the past I would have agreed but nowadays labour are seen as worse than the Tories so just cannot see why they will play big part in this one. They ruined themselves by being the Tories lapdogs for Indyref 1.
Sorry, by win Scotland I meant the referendum, not the parliamentary seats.
Still not sure what you mean about Corbyn winning in Scotland but on Corbyn agreeing a Ref 2 he has said quite categorically he will not support it for at least for some years to come
I mean I think Scotland will be in a much more likely place to stay in the union with a Labour led government than a Tory one. Corbyn doesn't have to be popular as an individual, but Labour's policies will be more popular north of the border. Sure, many independent minded people will still want independence, but the argument that "Scotland is shackled to a Tory government only the English want" is less of an immediate argument when there is no Tory government. I also don't think many Scottish Conservatives would be willing to split up the union just to escape Corbyn.
You do know that Scotland is devolved and Corbyn's policies on the NHS, education, and most anything else are not in his gift in Scotland
Yes, and I'm sure most Scots do as well, but it still will be a different atmosphere. We will see that Johnson coming in has already affected Scottish voting intentions away from Tories, even if he doesn't have sweeping powers over Scottish polity. I think a powerful line in the last indyref was "We keep getting shackled to Tory govs only England / Wales vote for" and that is less pressing an argument during a Labour government more Scots may be more (not completely) comfortable with. I assume any scottish indyref 2 will be simple majority, (although I would argue it shouldn't be, even though I think if the Scottish people want independence they should have it), and that simple majority will be harder to coalesce with a Labour PM. I could be wrong, but that is my thinking.
I think you are coming from an English viewpoint and seem to overlook that in Scotland the conservatives have dropped but labour have dropped much more.
When I first moved to Scotland when I was 16 in 1960, and then subsequently married a Scot and lived in Edinburgh, labour were as they are in Wales. However the SNP took their place and if you now think that the Scots will be happy with an English labour PM you are wrong
These days in Scotland tory or labour are 'persona non grata' and that will not change anytime soon. I do not always agree with Malc but he is usually spot on on Scots politics
This is the first time I have seen Farage demands for him to stand down TBP in conservative seats.
It looks as if we may be moving to a Boris-Farage agreement !!!!
I think that would likely end in tears for the Conservatives; some who aren't quite baulking at the kicking out of Ken Clarke will baulk at a Farage pact. I also think some (not many, but when you have no MPs every vote counts) BXP voters would go back to UKIP in that event, and if UKIP can stand in enough seats, that might be enough to prevent BXP winning some places.
A Tory Brexit pact would make the next election very clear cut.
Sorry, by win Scotland I meant the referendum, not the parliamentary seats.
Still not sure what you mean about Corbyn winning in Scotland but on Corbyn agreeing a Ref 2 he has said quite categorically he will not support it for at least for some years to come
I mean I think Scotland will be in a much more likely place to stay in the union with a Labour led government than a Tory one. Corbyn doesn't have to be popular byn.
You do know that Scotland is devolved and Corbyn's policies on the NHS, education, and most anything else are not in his gift in Scotland
Yes, and I'm sure most Scots do as well, but it still will be a different atmosphere. We will see that Johnson coming in has already affected Scottish voting intentions away from Tories, even if he doesn't have sweeping powers over Scottish polity. I think a powerful line in the last indyref was "We keep getting shackled to Tory govs only England / Wales vote for" and that is less pressing an argument during a Labour government more Scots may be more (not completely) comfortable with. I assume any scottish indyref 2 will be simple majority, (although I would argue it shouldn't be, even though I think if the Scottish people want independence they should have it), and that simple majority will be harder to coalesce with a Labour PM. I could be wrong, but that is my thinking.
Absurd.
Corbyn is polling worse than Boris in the latest Scottish polling, the Tories are still comfortably ahead of Slab and 51% of Scots still back the Union in the latest poll.
No Deal is the Start of twenty more years of never-ending Brexit. Except you'll be without a job, unable to afford a holiday, and the migrants working in your care home will be from India and Africa, not Eastern Europe.
Boris to make a statement today saying the people must have their say in a general election.
Even if the anti No Deal Bill passes and then the FTPA passes for a general election Boris still controls the election date and could still set it for October 15th ie so he can repeal the anti No Deal Bill if he gets a majority
Kindly explain how Boris gets his two-thirds majority for a general election under the FTPA having so spectacularly failed last night?
Corbyn has said he will vote for a general election once the anti No Deal Bill passes.
Once the FTPA passes (or a simple majority vote to disapply the FTPA in this case and call a general election anyway) Boris can set the GE date before October 31st using the royal prerogative.
I think Corbyn said he will "back" an election. I don't think he ever said he would vote for one to be held before 31st October. All he has to do is "back" an election until Parliament is prorogued.
If Corbyn backs an election Boris can then set the date without consulting Corbyn again
Why do politicians tend to say frit instead of afraid? I dont think I have ever heard anyone other than a politician use the word, but politicians seem to prefer it to afraid/scared/frightened.
It’s because Margaret Thatcher once used the word in parliament to accuse Labour of being scared of an election.
Thanks, typically petty and unoriginal then! Perhaps Thatcher was successful for coming up with her own soundbites rather than parroting others.
It was uttered at a time when a sycophant press was utterly in thrall to her, so instead of being ignored as a slightly puzzling linguistic peculiarity it was feted as if she were a new Jane Austen, ingeniously recreating and refreshing the English language.
It's irritating, but no more so than many other faddish words and phrases widely in use 'at this moment in time'.
That is entirely untrue. When she said it she was widely mocked for using an obscure Lincolnshire dialect word. There was more than a hint of snobbery in the mockery.
It was only later, as her legend and mythos grew, that her use of ‘frit’ became another admired characteristic. And the word entered the political lexicon.
For once Byronic is right to an extent. I actually remember her saying it, on the verge of a lapse of self control. I think it was quite genuine and just slipped out unplanned.
She was both mocked by her opponents and feted by the sycophants.
Addressed to Healey, I believe: The right hon. Gentleman is afraid of an election, is he? Afraid? Frightened? Frit? Could not take it? Cannot stand it? If I were going to cut and run, I should have gone after the Falklands. Frightened! Right now inflation is lower than it has been for 13 years—a record which the right hon. Gentleman could not begin to touch...
I mean I think Scotland will be in a much more likely place to stay in the union with a Labour led government than a Tory one. Corbyn doesn't have to be popular as an individual, but Labour's policies will be more popular north of the border. Sure, many independent minded people will still want independence, but the argument that "Scotland is shackled to a Tory government only the English want" is less of an immediate argument when there is no Tory government. I also don't think many Scottish Conservatives would be willing to split up the union just to escape Corbyn.
You do know that Scotland is devolved and Corbyn's policies on the NHS, education, and most anything else are not in his gift in Scotland
Yes, and I'm sure most Scots do as well, but it still will be a different atmosphere. We will see that Johnson coming in has already affected Scottish voting intentions away from Tories, even if he doesn't have sweeping powers over Scottish polity. I think a powerful line in the last indyref was "We keep getting shackled to Tory govs only England / Wales vote for" and that is less pressing an argument during a Labour government more Scots may be more (not completely) comfortable with. I assume any scottish indyref 2 will be simple majority, (although I would argue it shouldn't be, even though I think if the Scottish people want independence they should have it), and that simple majority will be harder to coalesce with a Labour PM. I could be wrong, but that is my thinking.
I think you are coming from an English viewpoint and seem to overlook that in Scotland the conservatives have dropped but labour have dropped much more.
When I first moved to Scotland when I was 16 in 1960, and then subsequently married a Scot and lived in Edinburgh, labour were as they are in Wales. However the SNP took their place and if you now think that the Scots will be happy with an English labour PM you are wrong
These days in Scotland tory or labour are 'persona non grata' and that will not change anytime soon. I do not always agree with Malc but he is usually spot on on Scots politics
I could easily be wrong, but that feels more likely to be an issue in a GE. I certainly don't see Labour doing well in partisan elections.
Independence is not a partisan election, it is one of vision and identity. Again, my thought process is that the argument of being "shackled to Right Wing England" helped the first indy ref, and this line of argument is weaker under a Labour government (especially one that may rely on the SNP and therefore put Scottish needs high on the priority list, such as the DUP was rewarded by May).
The high Remain areas like Cambridge, Brighton, and Islington are full of the struggling masses?
So what? I didn’t say that there wasn’t working class people who voted for Brexit.
It’s no coincidence that the richest people on here are all Brexiteers is it?
Southam? Alastair Meeks? JackW???
It will be news to them that they are Brexiteers.
Insofar as one can assess the wealth of PBers, the two richest that I am aware of are 1) the Goldman Sachs employee and 2) the successful novelist and (possible) screenwriter, both of whom are Leavers. Which Remainer is richer than they?
Don’t want to get too personal, but I am pretty certain one on my Remainer list is richer than either of those Leavers.
I don't think it would have done, there were about a hundred amendments at an average of around 25 minutes each to get through on the program motion. I'm sure Lord True had even more for the actual bill.
I *think* the actual bill could have been guillotined. But I agree, I think the filibuster was going to succeed.
Doubt it. They had until the end of Monday to get it through, and had "already" got through 10% of the amendments after 10 hours... at which pace they would've finally got done on Sunday evening.
The filibuster going on was on the guillotine motion. The guillotine motion only needed to be filibustered till Friday afternoon iirc. There would have been a whole another set of amendments for the actual bill itself.
The stuff about a Friday deadline was swirling on Twitter, but the BBC parliament expert (Mark D'Arcy) said it wasn't true. The business/guillotine motion could've been passed at anytime until Parliament is prorogued (he anticipated it passing Saturday lunchtime) - and that business motion allowed for second/third readings of the Bill itself to happen very quickly at any time after Friday morning, with only limited time allotted for debates or amendments.
Ah disappointing if True. Still it was a valiant effort.
Can anyone tell me if things are likely to improve here when the schools go back?
Gin was once a good poster.
Now he has followed the TGOHF, Mortimer tradition of making bullish forecasts to wind up his opponents then denying them or running away when they invariably turn out to be wrong.
Sad.
Reeeeee - lets hound Brexiteers off PB so it can be more like my twitter feed...
Yes indeed, Leavers are fair game for personal attacks on this site.
It is noticable in polling that (supposedly tolerant, liberal) Remainers are particularly disdainful of Leavers, in that a substantial number would be concerned if their children married a supporter of Brexit. The same polling also confirms that that pattern is not reciprocated to anything like the same extent by Leavers.
Isn't it more likely that's because the typical leaver is portrayed as being aged 70+, and lots of people don't like the idea of their children marrying people much older than them?
No it’s because Remain voters believe they are morally superior to those who voted Leave
Any logic or evidence for that? or you just showing your own prejudices?
If this is really a thing then it is obvious what is happening. Some leavers imagine that the typical remainer is a member of the "metropolitan elite". They might not agree with their politics, but they wouldn't mind their children marrying a member of the metropolitan elite. It doesn't sound like too bad a life. Some remainers imagine that the typical leaver is old, uneducated and poor. They might think their children could do better.
Additionally, both leavers and remainers are likely to have more children who are very strong remainers than very strong leavers, and might think that their children would be better off with someone who doesn't have a completely different world view.
Sorry, by win Scotland I meant the referendum, not the parliamentary seats.
Still not sure what you mean about Corbyn winning in Scotland but on Corbyn agreeing a Ref 2 he has said quite categorically he will not support it for at least for some years to come
I mean I think Scotland will be in a much more likely place to stay in the union with a Labour led government than a Tory one. Corbyn doesn't have to be popular byn.
You do know that Scotland is devolved and Corbyn's policies on the NHS, education, and most anything else are not in his gift in Scotland
Yes, and I'm sure most Scots do as well, but it still will be a different atmosphere. We will see that Johnson coming in has already affected Scottish voting intentions away from Tories, even if he doesn't have sweeping powers over Scottish polity. I think a powerful line in the last indyref was "We keep getting shackled to Tory govs only England / Wales vote for" and that is less pressing an argument during a Labour government more Scots may be more (not completely) comfortable with. I assume any scottish indyref 2 will be simple majority, (although I would argue it shouldn't be, even though I think if the Scottish people want independence they should have it), and that simple majority will be harder to coalesce with a Labour PM. I could be wrong, but that is my thinking.
Absurd.
Corbyn is polling worse than Boris in the latest Scottish polling, the Tories are still comfortably ahead of Slab and 51% of Scots still back the Union in the latest poll.
Yes. My argument is that more will back the union under a Labour government, not due to partisan identity, but other identity signifiers, such as cosmopolitanism or something similar.
Why do politicians tend to say frit instead of afraid? I dont think I have ever heard anyone other than a politician use the word, but politicians seem to prefer it to afraid/scared/frightened.
It’s because Margaret Thatcher once used the word in parliament to accuse Labour of being scared of an election.
Thanks, typically petty and unoriginal then! Perhaps Thatcher was successful for coming up with her own soundbites rather than parroting others.
It was uttered at a time when a sycophant press was utterly in thrall to her, so instead of being ignored as a slightly puzzling linguistic peculiarity it was feted as if she were a new Jane Austen, ingeniously recreating and refreshing the English language.
It's irritating, but no more so than many other faddish words and phrases widely in use 'at this moment in time'.
That is entirely untrue. When she said it she was widely mocked for using an obscure Lincolnshire dialect word. There was more than a hint of snobbery in the mockery.
It was only later, as her legend and mythos grew, that her use of ‘frit’ became another admired characteristic. And the word entered the political lexicon.
For once Byronic is right to an extent. I actually remember her saying it, on the verge of a lapse of self control. I think it was quite genuine and just slipped out unplanned.
She was both mocked by her opponents and feted by the sycophants.
Addressed to Healey, I believe: The right hon. Gentleman is afraid of an election, is he? Afraid? Frightened? Frit? Could not take it? Cannot stand it? If I were going to cut and run, I should have gone after the Falklands. Frightened! Right now inflation is lower than it has been for 13 years—a record which the right hon. Gentleman could not begin to touch...
I remember it too, and you've both described it correctly. The tone was mocking as Thatcher was generally regarded as a lower middle class parvenu. It was a slip that betrayed her lowly origins.
No Deal is the Start of twenty more years of never-ending Brexit. Except you'll be without a job, unable to afford a holiday, and the migrants working in your care home will be from India and Africa, not Eastern Europe.
How did I do?
Even thd Bank of England halved the forecast fall in growth from No Deal yesterday and leaving the Single Market ensures free movement from the EU ends and a points system can be applied to both EU and non EU migrants
Sorry, by win Scotland I meant the referendum, not the parliamentary seats.
Still not sure what you mean about Corbyn winning in Scotland but on Corbyn agreeing a Ref 2 he has said quite categorically he will not support it for at least for some years to come
I mean I think Scotland will be in a much more likely place to stay in the union with a Labour led government than a Tory one. Corbyn doesn't have to be popular byn.
You do know that Scotland is devolved and Corbyn's policies on the NHS, education, and most anything else are not in his gift in Scotland
Yes, and I'm sure most Scots do as well, but it still will be a different atmosphere. We will see that Johnson coming in has already affected Scottish voting intentions away from Tories, even if he doesn't have sweeping powers over Scottish polity. I think a powerful line in the last indyref was "We keep getting shackled to Tory govs only England / Wales vote for" and that is less pressing an argument during a Labour government more Scots may be more (not completely) comfortable with. I assume any scottish indyref 2 will be simple majority, (although I would argue it shouldn't be, even though I think if the Scottish people want independence they should have it), and that simple majority will be harder to coalesce with a Labour PM. I could be wrong, but that is my thinking.
Absurd.
Corbyn is polling worse than Boris in the latest Scottish polling, the Tories are still comfortably ahead of Slab and 51% of Scots still back the Union in the latest poll.
51% - wow - a stunning endorsement. No margin for error there. None at all.
This entire mess is the product of the failure of the large majority of the political class both to face up to reality and to embrace the logic of their decisions.
First, a large majority of MPs voted to hold a referendum that contained an option they thought would never be voted for and did not want to happen. None of them seems to have devoted any thought to what the Hell they were going to do in the event of a Leave vote; we certainly know that the Second Cameron Ministry did absolutely zero work to prepare for it.
Second, most of the Commons then voted to trigger Article 50, when clearly most of them were also still deeply reluctant to go and, again, they had no idea how. Ladies and gentlemen, the logical conclusion of a decision to set a timer for the UK's departure from the EU is that, if you can't conclude new arrangements within the agreed timescale (e.g. no majority can be found for any kind of Withdrawal Agreement,) then you simply leave without one. Again, there are hundreds of prize idiots at Westminster who failed to think of this before they cast their votes.
Hence the fact that we now find ourselves at the point, more than three years after the referendum, where we're effectively no further forward (unless, by some miracle, May's deal is debated again and clears the Commons) actually to leaving the EU than we were on June 24th 2016. The public is absolutely sick of it, faith in representative democracy is being steadily corroded, and a substantial fraction of the Leave vote is either disillusioned, incandescent with rage or both about being thwarted.
(snipped)
Populism really takes root when respect for lawmakers is so diminished that the electorate itself (or, at any rate, a big enough chunk of it to destabilise the system,) comes to its own logical conclusion: that the law itself, being passed by disreputable individuals operating in a broken system, is worthless. And then we're all in desperate trouble.
Respect for lawmakers who are collectively behaving like children asked to tidy their bedrooms. Doing everything and anything to postpone doing it.
Nice article, @Cyclefree , but depressingly it gives me a shove in the direction of voting for .... oh dear.
Any election, deal, indyref or people's vote will be won on the very margins of established voting patterns. I think that whilst lots of politicians should worry about being "too clever by half" that FPTP is a fickle thing, and that even a 30-35% showing for the Conservatives is no guarantee of a majority in the House. Every little counts at the moment, and it is the Conservatives and Johnson committing unforced errors, not the LOTO and not the other opposition parties.
Wrong, wait for the weekend polls, Corbyn blocking Brexit will go down like a lead balloon with Labour Leave voters to the benefit of the Brexit Party and Tories
I could easily be wrong, but that feels more likely to be an issue in a GE. I certainly don't see Labour doing well in partisan elections.
Independence is not a partisan election, it is one of vision and identity. Again, my thought process is that the argument of being "shackled to Right Wing England" helped the first indy ref, and this line of argument is weaker under a Labour government (especially one that may rely on the SNP and therefore put Scottish needs high on the priority list, such as the DUP was rewarded by May).
I would suggest that unless you know Scotland and it's politics it is possibly difficult to understand why labour is so toxic and remains so. One of the reasons the conservatives have done well recently is their support of the fishing communities desire to exit the EU and the CFP
My background in Scotland is one of a close affinity with the fisher folk, having married the daughter of one of Scotland's most successful fishermen, who I remember to this day furiously denouncing the sell out of the fishing industry when we joined the EU
Indeed I know several SNP supporters who vote for the conservative and are for the union
Corbyn will not cut it in Scotland anymore than Boris
Corbyn is a crap leader with some rather unpleasant views, but compared to Johnson, he'd seem like Clement Attlee or Blair in his heyday. And for all his faults, he does at seem at least to be motivated by wanting to do good by the country, which really cannot be said of No10's current incumbent. So like Jonathan, I heartily welcome PM Corbyn, even though I'd probably regard his premiership as not being a good thing for the country in more normal times.
What utter crap.
Corbyn has done nothing but put his own interests ahead of the country's ever since he voted 3 times against the Withdrawal Agreement despite agreeing with most of it purely to divide the Tories (even Boris voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3).
But No Deal is now a reality and the vast majority of Tory MPs bar the 21 just put party before country.
As fortune would have it Jezza was there to save the day from the wreckers.
Nope, most voters opposed extension with Survation and Yougov this week, Corbyn is denying the will of the people and the people will get their revenge
Morning me old mucker. I don't think Jezza will mind that too much. As we have rehearsed on here many times at a GE the government is elected on 30-odd percent of the vote. Hence at any one time the will of the people is against the government. The only people that matter to any party is the 30-40% of the electorate that will vote for them. Jezza, if he refuses an election on Monday, will be satisfying his electorate, his people.
Opinion polls describing what "the people" want Brexit-wise are for direct democracy. But we are now back in the world of parliamentary democracy.
His people? While most Labour voters voted Remain most Labour seats voted Leave so under FPTP the more Corbyn shifts to block Brexit the better the Tories chances due to the many marginal Labour Leave seats
Comments
"As the House will recall, no Queen’s Consent was required for the contents of the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill, which was introduced in January 2017 after the UK Supreme Court decision in the Miller case. My ruling is that as no prerogative consent was required for the Bill in 2017 giving parliamentary authority to the Prime Minister to take action under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union, there is no requirement for new and separate prerogative consent to be sought for legislation in 2019 on what further action the Prime Minister should take under the same Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union."
Yes, no excuses now. Make Doncaster Great Again. Hope it happens, I really do.
Unless 'Great' is defined as being even poorer but with a few less foreigners about the place. In which case, I'm not so keen and I'm not sure they will be either.
I feel my argument why may anger you, but it's because in the ideal world, your representative is supposed to be more knowledgeable about these issues than you. That is the point of representative democracy; most people have lives and things and don't want to talk and think politics all the time. So, instead, they vote for someone they trust to do it for them, abdicating that responsibility from the individuals to the representatives. So, when representatives vote, they are supposedly "experts". When the people vote, in referenda, they are not.
This sounds awfully elitist, mainly because it is, but that is what representative democracy meant for a long time. I would argue another reason we are having the problems we are is that with the introduction of the internet into society, many people feel they are now as learned, as qualified and as knowledgeable as their representatives (which in some cases they might be, and others not). This means they don't want their MPs to be someone who takes the weight of evidence and uses their personal judgement on issues in proxy of their constituents, but instead they want their representative to be the conduit through which the judgement of the constituents is shown (which is not possible because no constituency is homogeneous).
Has it been reset?
There would have been a whole another set of amendments for the actual bill itself.
It looks as if we may be moving to a Boris-Farage agreement !!!!
As for Liverpool and Glasgow, Wikipedia indicates city populations of under half a million and a little over 600,000 respectively, with Leeds close to 800,000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds
Given the key point is that Leeds is the biggest city in Yorkshire, I think your contrariness is the main takeaway from your response.
Very (scarily) few people buy papers nowadays.
It's irritating, but no more so than many other faddish words and phrases widely in use 'at this moment in time'.
Morally AND intellectually.
And slightly better looking due to a better diet and all the skiing holidays.
Boris will just say Corbyns surrender bill prevented the UK leaving the EU
Lets see how the polling goes on all this over the next few weeks
The one thing is certain there are very many mps who are really scared of losing their seats
It was only later, as her legend and mythos grew, that her use of ‘frit’ became another admired characteristic. And the word entered the political lexicon.
SNP could then collapse the Corbyn-led Govt but as that would most likely allow the Tories back in, it would put them in a bind. Labour for years were able to rag the SNP for voting down Callaghan and letting Mrs T in.
Philip Collins
@PCollinsTimes
Labour should table an amendment to the election bill which reads "Yes, go on then as long as it includes votes at 16".
Nor can Boris really ask for an election next week as his attempt yesterday failed miserably,
I suspect the biggest mistake Boris made this week was asking for an election last night.
Votes at 16 amendment wouldn't pass
Opinion polls describing what "the people" want Brexit-wise are for direct democracy. But we are now back in the world of parliamentary democracy.
Head of German CBI saying were better off without the UK
https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/eu-stronger-after-brexit-head-of-germanys-bdi-38468618.html
https://twitter.com/GeneralBoles/status/1169532866788806656
Who is the poster who works at The Squid btw?
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When I first moved to Scotland when I was 16 in 1960, and then subsequently married a Scot and lived in Edinburgh, labour were as they are in Wales. However the SNP took their place and if you now think that the Scots will be happy with an English labour PM you are wrong
These days in Scotland tory or labour are 'persona non grata' and that will not change anytime soon. I do not always agree with Malc but he is usually spot on on Scots politics
Corbyn is polling worse than Boris in the latest Scottish polling, the Tories are still comfortably ahead of Slab and 51% of Scots still back the Union in the latest poll.
I'll rock up and just gravitate over to the bunch of blokes who look like Paul Newman circa 1963, will I?
Just when they think that really irritating relative who has overstayed their welcome is about to leave, we unpack our bags and change the TV channel.
I actually remember her saying it, on the verge of a lapse of self control. I think it was quite genuine and just slipped out unplanned.
She was both mocked by her opponents and feted by the sycophants.
Addressed to Healey, I believe:
The right hon. Gentleman is afraid of an election, is he? Afraid? Frightened? Frit? Could not take it? Cannot stand it? If I were going to cut and run, I should have gone after the Falklands. Frightened! Right now inflation is lower than it has been for 13 years—a record which the right hon. Gentleman could not begin to touch...
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1169543157471678464
Independence is not a partisan election, it is one of vision and identity. Again, my thought process is that the argument of being "shackled to Right Wing England" helped the first indy ref, and this line of argument is weaker under a Labour government (especially one that may rely on the SNP and therefore put Scottish needs high on the priority list, such as the DUP was rewarded by May).
If this is really a thing then it is obvious what is happening.
Some leavers imagine that the typical remainer is a member of the "metropolitan elite". They might not agree with their politics, but they wouldn't mind their children marrying a member of the metropolitan elite. It doesn't sound like too bad a life.
Some remainers imagine that the typical leaver is old, uneducated and poor. They might think their children could do better.
Additionally, both leavers and remainers are likely to have more children who are very strong remainers than very strong leavers, and might think that their children would be better off with someone who doesn't have a completely different world view.
If nothin else, it gives the lie to the FT’s absurd notion that the EU wants us gone, tomorrow.
Even thd Bank of England halved the forecast fall in growth from No Deal yesterday and leaving the Single Market ensures free movement from the EU ends and a points system can be applied to both EU and non EU migrants
https://twitter.com/BrunoBrussels/status/1169502879100678144
I guess it's possible the EU might unilaterally offer us an extension, even without a Boris letter.
Nice article, @Cyclefree , but depressingly it gives me a shove in the direction of voting for .... oh dear.
Good morning, everyone.
The guy that made the claim is not an idiot, has connections, and still says its true, tho he has finessed the point.
https://twitter.com/TomKibasi/status/1169525135285661696?s=20
I could easily be wrong, but that feels more likely to be an issue in a GE. I certainly don't see Labour doing well in partisan elections.
Independence is not a partisan election, it is one of vision and identity. Again, my thought process is that the argument of being "shackled to Right Wing England" helped the first indy ref, and this line of argument is weaker under a Labour government (especially one that may rely on the SNP and therefore put Scottish needs high on the priority list, such as the DUP was rewarded by May).
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I would suggest that unless you know Scotland and it's politics it is possibly difficult to understand why labour is so toxic and remains so. One of the reasons the conservatives have done well recently is their support of the fishing communities desire to exit the EU and the CFP
My background in Scotland is one of a close affinity with the fisher folk, having married the daughter of one of Scotland's most successful fishermen, who I remember to this day furiously denouncing the sell out of the fishing industry when we joined the EU
Indeed I know several SNP supporters who vote for the conservative and are for the union
Corbyn will not cut it in Scotland anymore than Boris