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  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892

    Ironic that it's the sons of Tony Benn and Neil Kinnock who are now directing the government.

    Stephen Kinnock seems to have come round to some degree of sense. Bit late in the day, but he got there with the WA.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,490
    Byronic said:

    Tabman said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    I suspected as much. All flamboyant, drooping appendage, with unsatisfactory engineering.
    Perpendicular gothic - unsatisfactory engineering? That's a bit unfair.

    image
    Canterbury! Beautiful. The great reliquary of Englishness.

    Tho the apogee of the style is surely King’s, Cambridge. Architecture so sublime, vaulting so delicate, it turns into a kind of.... mist.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/5gBsFqvAZUSiR2sP7
    Ooops. My bad. It's been a while since I last saw the inside. But it's nice to be able to agree with Sean@Byronic
    Shall we have a favorite cathedrals game? OOOOH PLEASE


    My top ten, in no obvious order

    Durham
    Salisbury
    Kilfenora (mad!)
    Burgos
    St Basil’s
    Amalfi
    Hagia Sophia
    Laon
    St Peters (is it a cathedral?)
    Hallgrimskirka
    It's got to be Stoke On Trent
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Drutt said:

    No LAB tellers. Are they abstaining? And am I right to say that abstaining counts as a nay in this case?

    Yes.
  • Byronic said:

    Tabman said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    I suspected as much. All flamboyant, drooping appendage, with unsatisfactory engineering.
    Perpendicular gothic - unsatisfactory engineering? That's a bit unfair.

    image
    Canterbury! Beautiful. The great reliquary of Englishness.

    Tho the apogee of the style is surely King’s, Cambridge. Architecture so sublime, vaulting so delicate, it turns into a kind of.... mist.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/5gBsFqvAZUSiR2sP7
    Ooops. My bad. It's been a while since I last saw the inside. But it's nice to be able to agree with Sean@Byronic
    Shall we have a favorite cathedrals game? OOOOH PLEASE


    My top ten, in no obvious order

    Durham
    Salisbury
    Kilfenora (mad!)
    Burgos
    St Basil’s
    Amalfi
    Hagia Sophia
    Laon
    St Peters (is it a cathedral?)
    Hallgrimskirka
    St Pancras (better than a Cathedral because lots of trains and no God).
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    I suspected as much. All flamboyant, drooping appendage, with unsatisfactory engineering.
    Perpendicular gothic - unsatisfactory engineering? That's a bit unfair.

    image
    Canterbury! Beautiful. The great reliquary of Englishness.

    Tho the apogee of the style is surely King’s, Cambridge. Architecture so sublime, vaulting so delicate, it turns into a kind of.... mist.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/5gBsFqvAZUSiR2sP7
    What's Canterbury cathedral got to do with the English? Reconstructed under an Italian bishop by the Normans, based on a French design. Even the stone was brought from France apparently. A thoroughly European project.
    Well for a start its location in Canterbury is because that’s where St Augustine made his first major conversion: of the Anglo Saxons. A very very English event. And why was St Augustine sent there? Because Pope Gregory the Great thought the English, AKA the Angles, looked like Angels.
  • Be funny if 100 Lab MPs rebelled and voted Aye.

    Won't happen, but be funny.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586
    Tabman said:

    Byronic said:

    Tabman said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    I suspected as much. All flamboyant, drooping appendage, with unsatisfactory engineering.
    Perpendicular gothic - unsatisfactory engineering? That's a bit unfair.

    image
    Canterbury! Beautiful. The great reliquary of Englishness.

    Tho the apogee of the style is surely King’s, Cambridge. Architecture so sublime, vaulting so delicate, it turns into a kind of.... mist.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/5gBsFqvAZUSiR2sP7
    Ooops. My bad. It's been a while since I last saw the inside. But it's nice to be able to agree with Sean@Byronic
    Shall we have a favorite cathedrals game? OOOOH PLEASE


    My top ten, in no obvious order

    Durham
    Salisbury
    Kilfenora (mad!)
    Burgos
    St Basil’s
    Amalfi
    Hagia Sophia
    Laon
    St Peters (is it a cathedral?)
    Hallgrimskirka
    The columns in Durham are exquisite.

    Christ Church (Oxford) is a somewhat boring overgrown parish church.
    Lincoln should be in there.

    Salisbury is remarkable but somewhat sterile.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    GE vote Ayes 298 Noes 56, so Ayes have it but without 2/3 majority required under FTPA so we remain in limbo
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,866
    Tabman said:

    Byronic said:

    Tabman said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    I suspected as much. All flamboyant, drooping appendage, with unsatisfactory engineering.
    Perpendicular gothic - unsatisfactory engineering? That's a bit unfair.

    image
    Canterbury! Beautiful. The great reliquary of Englishness.

    Tho the apogee of the style is surely King’s, Cambridge. Architecture so sublime, vaulting so delicate, it turns into a kind of.... mist.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/5gBsFqvAZUSiR2sP7
    Ooops. My bad. It's been a while since I last saw the inside. But it's nice to be able to agree with Sean@Byronic
    Shall we have a favorite cathedrals game? OOOOH PLEASE


    My top ten, in no obvious order

    Durham
    Salisbury
    Kilfenora (mad!)
    Burgos
    St Basil’s
    Amalfi
    Hagia Sophia
    Laon
    St Peters (is it a cathedral?)
    Hallgrimskirka
    The columns in Durham are exquisite.

    Christ Church (Oxford) is a somewhat boring overgrown parish church.
    Chichester Cathedral is worth a mention, solely on the grounds that it contains the effigies that gave rise to Larkin's 'An Arundel Tomb'.
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Ayes 298
    Noes 56
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    edited September 2019
    Boris now speaking says 'Corbyn the first opposition leader in our history to refuse an election'
  • Government short of a simple majority so they can’t even use the legislative route.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    BoZo maintains his 100% record...
  • The Tories are having a nervous breakdown in front of our eyes:

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1169339433147162625
  • So the zombie government can’t even be dismissed.

    God save us from these games, this gets more depressing with every single day. Throw out the whole lot.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    edited September 2019

    Tabman said:

    Byronic said:

    Tabman said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    I suspected as much. All flamboyant, drooping appendage, with unsatisfactory engineering.
    Perpendicular gothic - unsatisfactory engineering? That's a bit unfair.

    image
    Canterbury! Beautiful. The great reliquary of Englishness.

    Tho the apogee of the style is surely King’s, Cambridge. Architecture so sublime, vaulting so delicate, it turns into a kind of.... mist.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/5gBsFqvAZUSiR2sP7
    Ooops. My bad. It's been a while since I last saw the inside. But it's nice to be able to agree with Sean@Byronic
    Shall we have a favorite cathedrals game? OOOOH PLEASE


    My top ten, in no obvious order

    Durham
    Salisbury
    Kilfenora (mad!)
    Burgos
    St Basil’s
    Amalfi
    Hagia Sophia
    Laon
    St Peters (is it a cathedral?)
    Hallgrimskirka
    The columns in Durham are exquisite.

    Christ Church (Oxford) is a somewhat boring overgrown parish church.
    Lincoln should be in there.

    Salisbury is remarkable but somewhat sterile.
    I love the perfection of Salisbury. I was also trying to rein in the number of English cathedrals in the list. I would happily swoon to the charms of Wells, Ely and Gloucester. And, yes, Lincoln. I lurrrrrve Lincoln
  • On the date of the election I heard it said by a constititional expert on Sky that the PM announces the date and once displayed officially on the Palace gates it cannot be changed

    So all the talk of the PM suddenly changing the date seems to be fake news

    You've missed the point completely. The election date is set by proclaimation which is a perogative power. So if the Commons had voted for an early election based on Johnson's stated date of 15/10 there would be *nothing* to then stop Johnson setting the date for 1/11 or later. Thus ensuring a No Deal Brexit. The law currently means the commons has to agree an election with no power over its date. Which in the current situation is a huge issue.
    He wants the 15th October for obvious reasons, prior to brexit and the council meetings, and to run on who do you want at the council meeting me or Corbyn
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Government short of a simple majority so they can’t even use the legislative route.

    Well it's difficult to say because we don't know how many people would abstain. 298 could be enough.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    Bernard Jenkin proposes a VONC in the Opposition
  • Bullshit and bluster from Bozo. What a statesman.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    dixiedean said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_P said:

    isam said:

    Yes, a hammy actress.

    She can deliver the lines better than BoZo

    He totally fluffed PMQs
    His stuttering wiffle waffle delivery has always made me think he couldnt possibly be a vote winner, right from the time I had a grand on Ken Livingstone to beat him to the 2008 Mayoralty

    Jess Phillips faux working class hero act is as annoying
    I thought she was brilliant tonight, speaking passionately and clearly in plain English and articulating what many of us feel about the way that people like Johnson and Rees Mogg treat politics like a game for their own amusement. I don't think there is anything faux about her - she isn't working class and doesn't claim to be.
    Not everyone who doesn't speak South east English RP is working class or pretending to be. It's only because so much of our political and media conversations are public school people talking to each other in their deathly boring plummy vowels that Jess Phillips is accused of pretending to live on a sink estate, when actually she just talks the way most people talk where she comes from.
    Oh leave off. She said "There werent any kids like Nigel Farage at MY school" on This Week, the clear inference being there were no Posho's there, when she went to an all girl Grammar. The uninformed viewer would have assumed she went to an inner city Comp

    Yesterday in the Commons she was saying she had to go round her mother in laws to print some documents as she hasnt got a printer.. its all a transparent act to appear down and dirty, when she is far from it

    Its not her accent, its the things she says, and the impression she hopes they give.
    If she went to an all girls school then, in fairness, there wouldn't have been many Nigels.
    The KE Foundation in Birmingham takes bright children from all social classes. They're state grammar schools.
  • Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    I suspected as much. All flamboyant, drooping appendage, with unsatisfactory engineering.
    Perpendicular gothic - unsatisfactory engineering? That's a bit unfair.

    image
    Canterbury! Beautiful. The great reliquary of Englishness.

    Tho the apogee of the style is surely King’s, Cambridge. Architecture so sublime, vaulting so delicate, it turns into a kind of.... mist.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/5gBsFqvAZUSiR2sP7
    What's Canterbury cathedral got to do with the English? Reconstructed under an Italian bishop by the Normans, based on a French design. Even the stone was brought from France apparently. A thoroughly European project.
    Well for a start its location in Canterbury is because that’s where St Augustine made his first major conversion: of the Anglo Saxons. A very very English event. And why was St Augustine sent there? Because Pope Gregory the Great thought the English, AKA the Angles, looked like Angels.
    Maybe he was just dyslexic.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    Boris also says 'the first time in history the opposition has voted to show confidence in the government'
  • HYUFD said:

    Bernard Jenkin proposes a VONC in the Opposition

    Another feckwit.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,490

    Government short of a simple majority so they can’t even use the legislative route.

    But they could get a bill through which guaranteed the date of the election. that was always the problem with letting BJ picking the date
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Byronic said:

    Tabman said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    I suspected as much. All flamboyant, drooping appendage, with unsatisfactory engineering.
    Perpendicular gothic - unsatisfactory engineering? That's a bit unfair.

    image
    Canterbury! Beautiful. The great reliquary of Englishness.

    Tho the apogee of the style is surely King’s, Cambridge. Architecture so sublime, vaulting so delicate, it turns into a kind of.... mist.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/5gBsFqvAZUSiR2sP7
    Ooops. My bad. It's been a while since I last saw the inside. But it's nice to be able to agree with Sean@Byronic
    Shall we have a favorite cathedrals game? OOOOH PLEASE


    My top ten, in no obvious order

    Durham
    Salisbury
    Kilfenora (mad!)
    Burgos
    St Basil’s
    Amalfi
    Hagia Sophia
    Laon
    St Peters (is it a cathedral?)
    Hallgrimskirka
    St Pancras (better than a Cathedral because lots of trains and no God).
    Hagia Sophia is cultural reappropriation.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872
    Well it's all intended for a people vs the parliament election, so even losses get chalked up in the 'win' column for Boris under his strategy, but he must be less confident than he pretends since if the date was not super important to him thinking he will win he would not have an issue with the Labour counter.
  • Ireland suggesting border checks could be done away from the border: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49587610

    Gee who's been suggesting that?

    The backstop is b****ks and always has been.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    First they undermine our negotiation position yet again then they vote down an election so that they do not have to face the electorate that they have defied. A shower of shits is really way too generous a description for this Parliament.
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,121
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    I suspected as much. All flamboyant, drooping appendage, with unsatisfactory engineering.
    Perpendicular gothic - unsatisfactory engineering? That's a bit unfair.

    image
    Canterbury! Beautiful. The great reliquary of Englishness.

    Tho the apogee of the style is surely King’s, Cambridge. Architecture so sublime, vaulting so delicate, it turns into a kind of.... mist.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/5gBsFqvAZUSiR2sP7
    What's Canterbury cathedral got to do with the English? Reconstructed under an Italian bishop by the Normans, based on a French design. Even the stone was brought from France apparently. A thoroughly European project.
    Well for a start its location in Canterbury is because that’s where St Augustine made his first major conversion: of the Anglo Saxons. A very very English event. And why was St Augustine sent there? Because Pope Gregory the Great thought the English, AKA the Angles, looked like Angels.
    A night out in Canterbury will disabuse one of this notion.

    Thanks JackW. Based on that division HMG fell well short of the 320- odd it would need to carry a one line 'Election Now' bill. Guess we'll have to see who was in the noe lobby before we can work out if they'd have the numbers.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Foxy said:

    On the date of the election I heard it said by a constititional expert on Sky that the PM announces the date and once displayed officially on the Palace gates it cannot be changed

    So all the talk of the PM suddenly changing the date seems to be fake news

    The point is that BoZo cannot be trusted to pick a date in the first place, particularly with Cummings pulling his strings.
    He has to as it has to be announced on the Palace gates
    How could anyone trust BoZo to post the date that he gives to the Commons?

    Quite right to make him twist in the wind for a while longer with his imaginary renegotiations.

    @rcs1000 asked earlier who to vote for for the WA. Well the answer is that Labour will renegotiate the PD to include CU etc then put it to a #peoplesvote, so vote for Jezza.

    In this crazy world, Jezza is the sensible moderate centrist...
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    nunuone said:
    Wanted to remove himself from temptation.
  • DavidL said:

    First they undermine our negotiation position yet again then they vote down an election so that they do not have to face the electorate that they have defied. A shower of shits is really way too generous a description for this Parliament.

    Indeed.

    Can the Lords stand up for Democracy with the Commons so intent to wipe their arse on it?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
    edited September 2019
    Scott_P said:
    They're wrong, people vote for the rosette, not MPs. MPs are almost entirely fungible when it comes to where people put their X.

    O'Mara beat Nick Clegg ffsake.

    Anyone can run as an independent for Parliament ! It is the rosette of course that counts.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872
    edited September 2019
    DavidL said:

    First they undermine our negotiation position yet again then they vote down an election so that they do not have to face the electorate that they have defied. A shower of shits is really way too generous a description for this Parliament.

    While I have great respect for Clarke and the position he has taken, he was wrong when he said it was wrong that Boris was presenting those opposing him now as seeking to remain (or words to that effect). It's not true of most of the Tory rebels like him who did vote to leave multiple times, but there's no doubt that most of those proposing an extension as an end in itself actually want to remain. That's not even a secret.

    But are we even negotiating? I get a lot of stuff has to be fairly secret, but what is the big concession we are going to make to unlock a major concession from the EU?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871
    Scott_P said:
    Boris made it a vote of confidence, so how can he bring the back without looking like an even bigger idiot?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:
    They're wrong, people vote for the rosette, not MPs. MPs are almost entirely fungible when it comes to where people put their X.

    O'Mara beat Nick Clegg ffsake.
    Well they cannot have known just how bad an MP O'Mara would be. So long as someone can hold it together even vaguely for six weeks we don't really have any idea what they might be like.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    Cowardly Corbyn hiding behind the sofa. FRIT!
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    HYUFD said:

    Bernard Jenkin proposes a VONC in the Opposition

    What did we do to deserve such geniuses.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Scott_P said:
    Bloomberg as howlingly wrong, on Brexit, as ever. They should make a career of it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    Tabman said:

    dixiedean said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_P said:

    isam said:

    Yes, a hammy actress.

    She can deliver the lines better than BoZo

    He totally fluffed PMQs
    His stuttering wiffle waffle delivery has always made me think he couldnt possibly be a vote winner, right from the time I had a grand on Ken Livingstone to beat him to the 2008 Mayoralty

    Jess Phillips faux working class hero act is as annoying
    I thought she was brilliant tonight, speaking passionately and clearly in plain English and articulating what many of us feel about the way that people like Johnson and Rees Mogg treat politics like a game for their own amusement. I don't think there is anything faux about her - she isn't working class and doesn't claim to be.
    Not everyone who doesn't speak South east English RP is working class or pretending to be. It's only because so much of our political and media conversations are public school people talking to each other in their deathly boring plummy vowels that Jess Phillips is accused of pretending to live on a sink estate, when actually she just talks the way most people talk where she comes from.
    Oh leave off. She said "There werent any kids like Nigel Farage at MY school" on This Week, the clear inference being there were no Posho's there, when she went to an all girl Grammar. The uninformed viewer would have assumed she went to an inner city Comp

    Yesterday in the Commons she was saying she had to go round her mother in laws to print some documents as she hasnt got a printer.. its all a transparent act to appear down and dirty, when she is far from it

    Its not her accent, its the things she says, and the impression she hopes they give.
    If she went to an all girls school then, in fairness, there wouldn't have been many Nigels.
    The KE Foundation in Birmingham takes bright children from all social classes. They're state grammar schools.
    But few girls are called Nigel. Regardless of class.
  • The Tories are having a nervous breakdown in front of our eyes:

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1169339433147162625

    That was reported yesterday to be fair
  • glw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Boris made it a vote of confidence, so how can he bring the back without looking like an even bigger idiot?
    Flat out lie insisting that he never said that?
  • Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,178
    I still dont understand why the Tories en masse just voted for a GE.

    Do they want to lose many of their seats and almost certainly put Corbyn into No 10? Or was it because they knew the chance of it passing was virtually nil?

    Surely the Tories, especially in Remain areas and in Scotland, should be shitting themselves at the prospect of a GE?
  • glw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Boris made it a vote of confidence, so how can he bring the back without looking like an even bigger idiot?
    We shouldn't underestimate his ability to look like an idiot.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    HYUFD said:

    Boris also says 'the first time in history the opposition has voted to show confidence in the government'

    And Jeremy says "this is a government with no mandate no morals and no majority".

    Your turn.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,825
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris also says 'the first time in history the opposition has voted to show confidence in the government'

    And Jeremy says "this is a government with no mandate no morals and no majority".

    Your turn.
    Perhaps a sensible course of action would be to have an election then? :p
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    edited September 2019

    I still dont understand why the Tories en masse just voted for a GE.

    Do they want to lose many of their seats and almost certainly put Corbyn into No 10? Or was it because they knew the chance of it passing was virtually nil?

    Surely the Tories, especially in Remain areas and in Scotland, should be shitting themselves at the prospect of a GE?

    Given the latest poll gives a Tory majority of 106 and Labour falling to its lowest number of seats since 1935 the idea Tories should be bricking it rather than Corbyn Labour is hysterical!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586
    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:
    Bloomberg as howlingly wrong, on Brexit, as ever. They should make a career of it.
    It's only a day or so ago that you yourself were saying Brexit may be dead.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,490

    glw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Boris made it a vote of confidence, so how can he bring the back without looking like an even bigger idiot?
    We shouldn't underestimate his ability to look like an idiot.
    To misquote George Bush Jr... They misunderestimate him on this

    (oh for a time when GBJr was the worst politician in power in the west)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872

    I still dont understand why the Tories en masse just voted for a GE.

    Do they want to lose many of their seats and almost certainly put Corbyn into No 10? Or was it because they knew the chance of it passing was virtually nil?

    Surely the Tories, especially in Remain areas and in Scotland, should be shitting themselves at the prospect of a GE?

    You are assuming they have made the same analysis of their prospects that you have. If they can maintain their poll rating, and if BXP do not cause too much fuss, and if Labour and the LDs get in each other's way, they win, possibly a majority. Sure they'd still lose some seats along the way, but overall it would be a win.

    Now you might say that is a lot of ifs, or will not bear out in reality, but its easy to see why they believe it, and it is the same reason a lot of them voted for Boris in the first place - they think he has the best chance of saving their seats.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
    The Independent Group for Change votes against a General Election.

    Is there any CHANGE they actually want ?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871

    glw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Boris made it a vote of confidence, so how can he bring the back without looking like an even bigger idiot?
    Flat out lie insisting that he never said that?
    Good point, do a Trump and claim it never happened.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    HYUFD said:

    Bernard Jenkin proposes a VONC in the Opposition

    Another feckwit.
    Like father like son.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    Scott_P said:
    No, we've got to commit to deliver Brexit as 17 million people voted for to win the next election not reward those who have voted to block it
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,794
    edited September 2019
    Byronic said:

    Tabman said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    I suspected as much. All flamboyant, drooping appendage, with unsatisfactory engineering.
    Perpendicular gothic - unsatisfactory engineering? That's a bit unfair.

    image
    Canterbury! Beautiful. The great reliquary of Englishness.

    Tho the apogee of the style is surely King’s, Cambridge. Architecture so sublime, vaulting so delicate, it turns into a kind of.... mist.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/5gBsFqvAZUSiR2sP7
    Ooops. My bad. It's been a while since I last saw the inside. But it's nice to be able to agree with Sean@Byronic
    Shall we have a favorite cathedrals game
    York. Because I like York
    Paddy's Wigwam. From the inside.
    That one in Barcelona.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,926

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:
    People aren’t interested in detail like this unfortunately.
    Because its total bollocks.
    In what way is it "bollocks"?
    Negotiations regularly happen at the Council level.
    Read the thread rather than coming out with your kneejerk nonsense:
    "An EU source, asked if UK PM is correct, tells BBC that EU “leaders have never negotiated directly with the UK PM on Brexit… UK is not even present when the EU27 leaders discuss Brexit.”"
    Misleading bollocks.

    The PM is present when the PM is speaking to the 27. The PM is not present when the 27 speak amongst themselves.
    You say the British prime minister negotiates with the 27 at such a council meeting, do you?
    I say that if the PM and the 27 reach an agreement then that is the decision.
    The UK formally requests an extension, and then EUCO (without the UK) decides on whether to grant it.

    The opportunity for mischief would be if there was a mismatch in durations: the EU only offered a month, and we would only accept two, or somesuch.

    Other that duration, I don't believe there could be conditionality, and the EU could - in those circumstances - just ignore the conditionality and grant the extension.

    "We'd like to extend to November 30 and $100 billion please"
    "Congratulations you have succesfully extended to November 30"
    "But it was contitional on the $100bn!"
    "Congratulations you have succesfully extended to November 30"
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    edited September 2019
    TGOHF said:
    Jess Phillips is very popular. I doubt she’d lose.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,490
    kle4 said:

    I still dont understand why the Tories en masse just voted for a GE.

    Do they want to lose many of their seats and almost certainly put Corbyn into No 10? Or was it because they knew the chance of it passing was virtually nil?

    Surely the Tories, especially in Remain areas and in Scotland, should be shitting themselves at the prospect of a GE?

    You are assuming they have made the same analysis of their prospects that you have. If they can maintain their poll rating, and if BXP do not cause too much fuss, and if Labour and the LDs get in each other's way, they win, possibly a majority. Sure they'd still lose some seats along the way, but overall it would be a win.

    Now you might say that is a lot of ifs, or will not bear out in reality, but its easy to see why they believe it, and it is the same reason a lot of them voted for Boris in the first place - they think he has the best chance of saving their seats.
    Whatever happens at the next election both Labour and Tory will be losing votes when compared to the last one. What will tell is where they lose votes and who to. we've not had an election like it in recent times
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872
    dr_spyn said:
    How nice they put it as 'hypocrite'.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,866
    dixiedean said:

    Tabman said:

    dixiedean said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_P said:

    isam said:

    Yes, a hammy actress.

    She can deliver the lines better than BoZo

    He totally fluffed PMQs
    His stuttering wiffle waffle delivery has always made me think he couldnt possibly be a vote winner, right from the time I had a grand on Ken Livingstone to beat him to the 2008 Mayoralty

    Jess Phillips faux working class hero act is as annoying
    I thought she was brilliant tonight, speaking passionately and clearly in plain English and articulating what many of us feel about the way that people like Johnson and Rees Mogg treat politics like a game for their own amusement. I don't think there is anything faux about her - she isn't working class and doesn't claim to be.
    Not everyone who doesn't speak South east English RP is working class or pretending to be. It's only because so much of our political and media conversations are public school people talking to each other in their deathly boring plummy vowels that Jess Phillips is accused of pretending to live on a sink estate, when actually she just talks the way most people talk where she comes from.
    Oh leave off. She said "There werent any kids like Nigel Farage at MY school" on This Week, the clear inference being there were no Posho's there, when she went to an all girl Grammar. The uninformed viewer would have assumed she went to an inner city Comp

    Yesterday in the Commons she was saying she had to go round her mother in laws to print some documents as she hasnt got a printer.. its all a transparent act to appear down and dirty, when she is far from it

    Its not her accent, its the things she says, and the impression she hopes they give.
    If she went to an all girls school then, in fairness, there wouldn't have been many Nigels.
    The KE Foundation in Birmingham takes bright children from all social classes. They're state grammar schools.
    But few girls are called Nigel. Regardless of class.
    I believe Nigella is the feminine form.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,926
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_P said:

    isam said:

    Yes, a hammy actress.

    She can deliver the lines better than BoZo

    He totally fluffed PMQs
    His stuttering wiffle waffle delivery has always made me think he couldnt possibly be a vote winner, right from the time I had a grand on Ken Livingstone to beat him to the 2008 Mayoralty

    Jess Phillips faux working class hero act is as annoying
    I thought she was brilliant tonight, speaking passionately and clearly in plain English and articulating what many of us feel about the way that people like Johnson and Rees Mogg treat politics like a game for their own amusement. I don't think there is anything faux about her - she isn't working class and doesn't claim to be.
    Not everyone who doesn't speak South east English RP is working class or pretending to be. It's only because so much of our political and media conversations are public school people talking to each other in their deathly boring plummy vowels that Jess Phillips is accused of pretending to live on a sink estate, when actually she just talks the way most people talk where she comes from.
    Oh leave off. She said "There werent any kids like Nigel Farage at MY school" on This Week, the clear inference being there were no Posho's there, when she went to an all girl Grammar. The uninformed viewer would have assumed she went to an inner city Comp

    Yesterday in the Commons she was saying she had to go round her mother in laws to print some documents as she hasnt got a printer.. its all a transparent act to appear down and dirty, when she is far from it

    Its not her accent, its the things she says, and the impression she hopes they give.
    I assumed she was talking about boys. But maybe I'm just being too charitable.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872
    Pulpstar said:

    The Independent Group for Change votes against a General Election.

    Is there any CHANGE they actually want ?

    They would like Corbyn changed so as not to be LOTO and Boris changed so as not to be PM. In theory.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    dixiedean said:

    Tabman said:

    dixiedean said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_P said:

    isam said:

    Yes, a hammy actress.

    She can deliver the lines better than BoZo

    He totally fluffed PMQs
    His stuttering wiffle waffle delivery has always made me think he couldnt possibly be a vote winner, right from the time I had a grand on Ken Livingstone to beat him to the 2008 Mayoralty

    Jess Phillips faux working class hero act is as annoying
    I thought she was brilliant tonight, speaking passionately and clearly in plain English and articulating what many of us feel about the way that people like Johnson and Rees Mogg treat politics like a game for their own amusement. I don't think there is anything faux about her - she isn't working class and doesn't claim to be.
    Not everyone who doesn't speak South east English RP is working class or pretending to be. It's only because so much of our political and media conversations are public school people talking to each other in their deathly boring plummy vowels that Jess Phillips is accused of pretending to live on a sink estate, when actually she just talks the way most people talk where she comes from.
    Oh leave off. She said "There werent any kids like Nigel Farage at MY school" on This Week, the clear inference being there were no Posho's there, when she went to an all girl Grammar. The uninformed viewer would have assumed she went to an inner city Comp

    Yesterday in the Commons she was saying she had to go round her mother in laws to print some documents as she hasnt got a printer.. its all a transparent act to appear down and dirty, when she is far from it

    Its not her accent, its the things she says, and the impression she hopes they give.
    If she went to an all girls school then, in fairness, there wouldn't have been many Nigels.
    The KE Foundation in Birmingham takes bright children from all social classes. They're state grammar schools.
    But few girls are called Nigel. Regardless of class.
    And even the Nigellas there are unlikely to be serenading the others with the Horst Wessell song, as young Farage allegedly was fond to do.

    Nigel Farage is 2 years younger than me. In his teens he was singing Nazi songs in a Sussex village, where I was brought up. I was enjoying life and doing normal stuff, he was hating people. He won’t change, believe me.

    — MarkC 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🇪🇺🍻🎼#FBPE (@mgacramer) April 12, 2019
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,926
    Byronic said:

    Tabman said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    I suspected as much. All flamboyant, drooping appendage, with unsatisfactory engineering.
    Perpendicular gothic - unsatisfactory engineering? That's a bit unfair.

    image
    Canterbury! Beautiful. The great reliquary of Englishness.

    Tho the apogee of the style is surely King’s, Cambridge. Architecture so sublime, vaulting so delicate, it turns into a kind of.... mist.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/5gBsFqvAZUSiR2sP7
    Ooops. My bad. It's been a while since I last saw the inside. But it's nice to be able to agree with Sean@Byronic
    Shall we have a favorite cathedrals game? OOOOH PLEASE


    My top ten, in no obvious order

    Durham
    Salisbury
    Kilfenora (mad!)
    Burgos
    St Basil’s
    Amalfi
    Hagia Sophia
    Laon
    St Peters (is it a cathedral?)
    Hallgrimskirka
    I think mine would be (also in no particular order):

    Lords
    Highbury
    Banc of California Standium
    The Oval
    Wimbledon (tennis)
    Old Trafford
    Turf Moor
    The Rose Bowl
    The Coliseum
    Wembley (old)
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,121
    "I got hammered today at the Court of session, costs against, because my case was that a prerogative power was justiciable. Here's another one with precisely the same shortcomings please fund it".

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1169336927587315718

    HMG would be forgiven for applying to class them as vexatious litigants.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
    Ronnie Campbell & Hepburn voted for a General Election for Labour, Hoey for the Brexit party.
  • NEW THREAD

  • rcs1000 said:

    Byronic said:

    Tabman said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    I suspected as much. All flamboyant, drooping appendage, with unsatisfactory engineering.
    Perpendicular gothic - unsatisfactory engineering? That's a bit unfair.

    image
    Canterbury! Beautiful. The great reliquary of Englishness.

    Tho the apogee of the style is surely King’s, Cambridge. Architecture so sublime, vaulting so delicate, it turns into a kind of.... mist.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/5gBsFqvAZUSiR2sP7
    Ooops. My bad. It's been a while since I last saw the inside. But it's nice to be able to agree with Sean@Byronic
    Shall we have a favorite cathedrals game? OOOOH PLEASE


    My top ten, in no obvious order

    Durham
    Salisbury
    Kilfenora (mad!)
    Burgos
    St Basil’s
    Amalfi
    Hagia Sophia
    Laon
    St Peters (is it a cathedral?)
    Hallgrimskirka
    I think mine would be (also in no particular order):

    Lords
    Highbury
    Banc of California Standium
    The Oval
    Wimbledon (tennis)
    Old Trafford
    Turf Moor
    The Rose Bowl
    The Coliseum
    Wembley (old)
    Old Trafford (cricket) I trust?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,664
    Lords currently debating Amendment 2C - that's the 4th amendment (out of approx 100) to the Business Motion.
  • kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    First they undermine our negotiation position yet again then they vote down an election so that they do not have to face the electorate that they have defied. A shower of shits is really way too generous a description for this Parliament.

    While I have great respect for Clarke and the position he has taken, he was wrong when he said it was wrong that Boris was presenting those opposing him now as seeking to remain (or words to that effect). It's not true of most of the Tory rebels like him who did vote to leave multiple times, but there's no doubt that most of those proposing an extension as an end in itself actually want to remain. That's not even a secret.

    But are we even negotiating? I get a lot of stuff has to be fairly secret, but what is the big concession we are going to make to unlock a major concession from the EU?
    Worse than that- has anybody even been able to articulate what the deal could look like? It feels like a big category error being made by the "it'll get sorted at the October summit" crowd.

    In some negotiations, you can tell pretty much from the get-go what the conclusion is going to be. Management offer a 2 % pay rise, unions want 4 %, late-night compromise will be about 2.95 %. Same sort of thing worked at Masstricht; most of Europe wanted stuff, UK didn't, late-night compromise was to sprinkle "except for the UK" over the text. If there was a solution to the competing wishes of the UK and rEU, I'd expect some bright sparks external to the process to have worked it out. Instead, the hope just seems to be that the other side will blink.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    Well. Another dramatic day. Seems part of the strategy was to count on the opposition failing to agree. That seems to be receding into the distance. We pretty much have 2 and a bit parties now. A Tory party, an anti-Boris party, and a flotsam and jetsam of independent actors.
    GNU seems to be hoving into view as a possibility.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
    MikeL said:

    Lords currently debating Amendment 2C - that's the 4th amendment (out of approx 100) to the Business Motion.

    What time do they go on till ?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586
    glw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Boris made it a vote of confidence, so how can he bring the back without looking like an even bigger idiot?
    Maybe he's had second thoughts...

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1169288488111562753?s=20
  • Scott_P said:
    He was very good until the scandal took him down
    Fallon lost it when he agreed to make the dead cat attack againt Ed Miliband. Of course, the acts underlying the subsequent scandals pre-dated that. I doubt he will be much missed.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    TGOHF said:
    Jess Phillips is very popular. I doubt she’d lose.
    And if she does, it would be to a LibDem.
  • AndyJS said:

    Ayes 298
    Noes 56

    So, if Corbyn is content for Labour to vote for a GE once the bill outlawing no deal has received Royal Assent, he needs to whip together 136 Labour MPs to get a GE over the line by the 2/3rds route, or less if the SNP etc share his view. That seems do-able.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited September 2019
    glw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Boris made it a vote of confidence, so how can he bring the back without looking like an even bigger idiot?
    Boris did not make it a vote of confidence, he just said he did. We can tell because Boris did not resign when the vote went against him.
  • Byronic said:

    Tabman said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    I suspected as much. All flamboyant, drooping appendage, with unsatisfactory engineering.
    Perpendicular gothic - unsatisfactory engineering? That's a bit unfair.

    image
    Canterbury! Beautiful. The great reliquary of Englishness.

    Tho the apogee of the style is surely King’s, Cambridge. Architecture so sublime, vaulting so delicate, it turns into a kind of.... mist.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/5gBsFqvAZUSiR2sP7
    Ooops. My bad. It's been a while since I last saw the inside. But it's nice to be able to agree with Sean@Byronic
    Shall we have a favorite cathedrals game? OOOOH PLEASE


    My top ten, in no obvious order

    Durham
    Salisbury
    Kilfenora (mad!)
    Burgos
    St Basil’s
    Amalfi
    Hagia Sophia
    Laon
    St Peters (is it a cathedral?)
    Hallgrimskirka
    Laon
    Senlis
    Soissins
    Beauvais
    Amiens
    Chartres
    Brechin
    Dunblane
    St Andrews
    Fortrose
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,926

    Ireland suggesting border checks could be done away from the border: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49587610

    Gee who's been suggesting that?

    The backstop is b****ks and always has been.

    Are you being deliberately obtuse?

    We all know the correct technical solution to the border. There have been papers published, including by the European Commission, on the solution.

    The issue is not "is there a technical solution which removes the need for a hard border", it is "what happens between the end of the transition period and the implementation of the technical solution"?

    There is also the - very reasonable - fear that the EU or Ireland will drag their feet once we're in the backstop, and that's why binding international arbitration was added to the WA backstop text.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Byronic said:

    Tabman said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    I suspected as much. All flamboyant, drooping appendage, with unsatisfactory engineering.
    Perpendicular gothic - unsatisfactory engineering? That's a bit unfair.

    image
    Canterbury! Beautiful. The great reliquary of Englishness.

    Tho the apogee of the style is surely King’s, Cambridge. Architecture so sublime, vaulting so delicate, it turns into a kind of.... mist.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/5gBsFqvAZUSiR2sP7
    Ooops. My bad. It's been a while since I last saw the inside. But it's nice to be able to agree with Sean@Byronic
    Shall we have a favorite cathedrals game? OOOOH PLEASE


    My top ten, in no obvious order

    Durham
    Salisbury
    Kilfenora (mad!)
    Burgos
    St Basil’s
    Amalfi
    Hagia Sophia
    Laon
    St Peters (is it a cathedral?)
    Hallgrimskirka
    Laon
    Senlis
    Soissins
    Beauvais
    Amiens
    Chartres
    Brechin
    Dunblane
    St Andrews
    Fortrose
    None in England?
  • glw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Boris made it a vote of confidence, so how can he bring the back without looking like an even bigger idiot?
    Maybe he's had second thoughts...

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1169288488111562753?s=20
    That was posted ages ago
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    Tabman said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    I suspected as much. All flamboyant, drooping appendage, with unsatisfactory engineering.
    Perpendicular gothic - unsatisfactory engineering? That's a bit unfair.

    image
    Canterbury! Beautiful. The great reliquary of Englishness.

    Tho the apogee of the style is surely King’s, Cambridge. Architecture so sublime, vaulting so delicate, it turns into a kind of.... mist.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/5gBsFqvAZUSiR2sP7
    Ooops. My bad. It's been a while since I last saw the inside. But it's nice to be able to agree with Sean@Byronic
    Shall we have a favorite cathedrals game? OOOOH PLEASE


    My top ten, in no obvious order

    Durham
    Salisbury
    Kilfenora (mad!)
    Burgos
    St Basil’s
    Amalfi
    Hagia Sophia
    Laon
    St Peters (is it a cathedral?)
    Hallgrimskirka
    Laon
    Senlis
    Soissins
    Beauvais
    Amiens
    Chartres
    Brechin
    Dunblane
    St Andrews
    Fortrose
    Lol. Likesay, an inferiority complex the size of Albi cathedral
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,926
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    First they undermine our negotiation position yet again then they vote down an election so that they do not have to face the electorate that they have defied. A shower of shits is really way too generous a description for this Parliament.

    While I have great respect for Clarke and the position he has taken, he was wrong when he said it was wrong that Boris was presenting those opposing him now as seeking to remain (or words to that effect). It's not true of most of the Tory rebels like him who did vote to leave multiple times, but there's no doubt that most of those proposing an extension as an end in itself actually want to remain. That's not even a secret.

    But are we even negotiating? I get a lot of stuff has to be fairly secret, but what is the big concession we are going to make to unlock a major concession from the EU?
    If were serious about solving the backstop issue, we'd actually - you know - make our proposals known. I mean, it's not like we don't know what to do: extend the transition period to remove the need for the backstop.
  • On the day I resigned from the conservative party (as did my wife) as it is apparently it is
    not good enough for Ken Clarke, Rory Stewart, and other long standing mps, and I have seen Boris appearing out of his depth, my only consolation is that Stephen Kinnock has opened the door to TM, modified with labour, WDA being brought back to the floor of the HOC

    It is the way to resolve it and leave on the 31st October and if stories that Cummings dislikes the ERG are true I would not be surprised if after the Council summit that Boris will reintroduce it and it passes to the relief of many and the nation

    And so I wish everyone a good nights rest

    Good night folks
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
    House of Lords like a test match version of "Just a minute"
This discussion has been closed.