What's Canterbury cathedral got to do with the English? Reconstructed under an Italian bishop by the Normans, based on a French design. Even the stone was brought from France apparently. A thoroughly European project.
Well for a start its location in Canterbury is because that’s where St Augustine made his first major conversion: of the Anglo Saxons. A very very English event. And why was St Augustine sent there? Because Pope Gregory the Great thought the English, AKA the Angles, looked like Angels.
Ooops. My bad. It's been a while since I last saw the inside. But it's nice to be able to agree with Sean@Byronic
Shall we have a favorite cathedrals game? OOOOH PLEASE
My top ten, in no obvious order
Durham Salisbury Kilfenora (mad!) Burgos St Basil’s Amalfi Hagia Sophia Laon St Peters (is it a cathedral?) Hallgrimskirka
The columns in Durham are exquisite.
Christ Church (Oxford) is a somewhat boring overgrown parish church.
Lincoln should be in there.
Salisbury is remarkable but somewhat sterile.
I love the perfection of Salisbury. I was also trying to rein in the number of English cathedrals in the list. I would happily swoon to the charms of Wells, Ely and Gloucester. And, yes, Lincoln. I lurrrrrve Lincoln
On the date of the election I heard it said by a constititional expert on Sky that the PM announces the date and once displayed officially on the Palace gates it cannot be changed
So all the talk of the PM suddenly changing the date seems to be fake news
You've missed the point completely. The election date is set by proclaimation which is a perogative power. So if the Commons had voted for an early election based on Johnson's stated date of 15/10 there would be *nothing* to then stop Johnson setting the date for 1/11 or later. Thus ensuring a No Deal Brexit. The law currently means the commons has to agree an election with no power over its date. Which in the current situation is a huge issue.
He wants the 15th October for obvious reasons, prior to brexit and the council meetings, and to run on who do you want at the council meeting me or Corbyn
His stuttering wiffle waffle delivery has always made me think he couldnt possibly be a vote winner, right from the time I had a grand on Ken Livingstone to beat him to the 2008 Mayoralty
Jess Phillips faux working class hero act is as annoying
I thought she was brilliant tonight, speaking passionately and clearly in plain English and articulating what many of us feel about the way that people like Johnson and Rees Mogg treat politics like a game for their own amusement. I don't think there is anything faux about her - she isn't working class and doesn't claim to be. Not everyone who doesn't speak South east English RP is working class or pretending to be. It's only because so much of our political and media conversations are public school people talking to each other in their deathly boring plummy vowels that Jess Phillips is accused of pretending to live on a sink estate, when actually she just talks the way most people talk where she comes from.
Oh leave off. She said "There werent any kids like Nigel Farage at MY school" on This Week, the clear inference being there were no Posho's there, when she went to an all girl Grammar. The uninformed viewer would have assumed she went to an inner city Comp
Yesterday in the Commons she was saying she had to go round her mother in laws to print some documents as she hasnt got a printer.. its all a transparent act to appear down and dirty, when she is far from it
Its not her accent, its the things she says, and the impression she hopes they give.
If she went to an all girls school then, in fairness, there wouldn't have been many Nigels.
The KE Foundation in Birmingham takes bright children from all social classes. They're state grammar schools.
What's Canterbury cathedral got to do with the English? Reconstructed under an Italian bishop by the Normans, based on a French design. Even the stone was brought from France apparently. A thoroughly European project.
Well for a start its location in Canterbury is because that’s where St Augustine made his first major conversion: of the Anglo Saxons. A very very English event. And why was St Augustine sent there? Because Pope Gregory the Great thought the English, AKA the Angles, looked like Angels.
Well it's all intended for a people vs the parliament election, so even losses get chalked up in the 'win' column for Boris under his strategy, but he must be less confident than he pretends since if the date was not super important to him thinking he will win he would not have an issue with the Labour counter.
First they undermine our negotiation position yet again then they vote down an election so that they do not have to face the electorate that they have defied. A shower of shits is really way too generous a description for this Parliament.
What's Canterbury cathedral got to do with the English? Reconstructed under an Italian bishop by the Normans, based on a French design. Even the stone was brought from France apparently. A thoroughly European project.
Well for a start its location in Canterbury is because that’s where St Augustine made his first major conversion: of the Anglo Saxons. A very very English event. And why was St Augustine sent there? Because Pope Gregory the Great thought the English, AKA the Angles, looked like Angels.
A night out in Canterbury will disabuse one of this notion.
Thanks JackW. Based on that division HMG fell well short of the 320- odd it would need to carry a one line 'Election Now' bill. Guess we'll have to see who was in the noe lobby before we can work out if they'd have the numbers.
On the date of the election I heard it said by a constititional expert on Sky that the PM announces the date and once displayed officially on the Palace gates it cannot be changed
So all the talk of the PM suddenly changing the date seems to be fake news
The point is that BoZo cannot be trusted to pick a date in the first place, particularly with Cummings pulling his strings.
He has to as it has to be announced on the Palace gates
How could anyone trust BoZo to post the date that he gives to the Commons?
Quite right to make him twist in the wind for a while longer with his imaginary renegotiations.
@rcs1000 asked earlier who to vote for for the WA. Well the answer is that Labour will renegotiate the PD to include CU etc then put it to a #peoplesvote, so vote for Jezza.
In this crazy world, Jezza is the sensible moderate centrist...
First they undermine our negotiation position yet again then they vote down an election so that they do not have to face the electorate that they have defied. A shower of shits is really way too generous a description for this Parliament.
Indeed.
Can the Lords stand up for Democracy with the Commons so intent to wipe their arse on it?
First they undermine our negotiation position yet again then they vote down an election so that they do not have to face the electorate that they have defied. A shower of shits is really way too generous a description for this Parliament.
While I have great respect for Clarke and the position he has taken, he was wrong when he said it was wrong that Boris was presenting those opposing him now as seeking to remain (or words to that effect). It's not true of most of the Tory rebels like him who did vote to leave multiple times, but there's no doubt that most of those proposing an extension as an end in itself actually want to remain. That's not even a secret.
But are we even negotiating? I get a lot of stuff has to be fairly secret, but what is the big concession we are going to make to unlock a major concession from the EU?
They're wrong, people vote for the rosette, not MPs. MPs are almost entirely fungible when it comes to where people put their X.
O'Mara beat Nick Clegg ffsake.
Well they cannot have known just how bad an MP O'Mara would be. So long as someone can hold it together even vaguely for six weeks we don't really have any idea what they might be like.
His stuttering wiffle waffle delivery has always made me think he couldnt possibly be a vote winner, right from the time I had a grand on Ken Livingstone to beat him to the 2008 Mayoralty
Jess Phillips faux working class hero act is as annoying
I thought she was brilliant tonight, speaking passionately and clearly in plain English and articulating what many of us feel about the way that people like Johnson and Rees Mogg treat politics like a game for their own amusement. I don't think there is anything faux about her - she isn't working class and doesn't claim to be. Not everyone who doesn't speak South east English RP is working class or pretending to be. It's only because so much of our political and media conversations are public school people talking to each other in their deathly boring plummy vowels that Jess Phillips is accused of pretending to live on a sink estate, when actually she just talks the way most people talk where she comes from.
Oh leave off. She said "There werent any kids like Nigel Farage at MY school" on This Week, the clear inference being there were no Posho's there, when she went to an all girl Grammar. The uninformed viewer would have assumed she went to an inner city Comp
Yesterday in the Commons she was saying she had to go round her mother in laws to print some documents as she hasnt got a printer.. its all a transparent act to appear down and dirty, when she is far from it
Its not her accent, its the things she says, and the impression she hopes they give.
If she went to an all girls school then, in fairness, there wouldn't have been many Nigels.
The KE Foundation in Birmingham takes bright children from all social classes. They're state grammar schools.
But few girls are called Nigel. Regardless of class.
I still dont understand why the Tories en masse just voted for a GE.
Do they want to lose many of their seats and almost certainly put Corbyn into No 10? Or was it because they knew the chance of it passing was virtually nil?
Surely the Tories, especially in Remain areas and in Scotland, should be shitting themselves at the prospect of a GE?
I still dont understand why the Tories en masse just voted for a GE.
Do they want to lose many of their seats and almost certainly put Corbyn into No 10? Or was it because they knew the chance of it passing was virtually nil?
Surely the Tories, especially in Remain areas and in Scotland, should be shitting themselves at the prospect of a GE?
Given the latest poll gives a Tory majority of 106 and Labour falling to its lowest number of seats since 1935 the idea Tories should be bricking it rather than Corbyn Labour is hysterical!
I still dont understand why the Tories en masse just voted for a GE.
Do they want to lose many of their seats and almost certainly put Corbyn into No 10? Or was it because they knew the chance of it passing was virtually nil?
Surely the Tories, especially in Remain areas and in Scotland, should be shitting themselves at the prospect of a GE?
You are assuming they have made the same analysis of their prospects that you have. If they can maintain their poll rating, and if BXP do not cause too much fuss, and if Labour and the LDs get in each other's way, they win, possibly a majority. Sure they'd still lose some seats along the way, but overall it would be a win.
Now you might say that is a lot of ifs, or will not bear out in reality, but its easy to see why they believe it, and it is the same reason a lot of them voted for Boris in the first place - they think he has the best chance of saving their seats.
People aren’t interested in detail like this unfortunately.
Because its total bollocks.
In what way is it "bollocks"?
Negotiations regularly happen at the Council level.
Read the thread rather than coming out with your kneejerk nonsense: "An EU source, asked if UK PM is correct, tells BBC that EU “leaders have never negotiated directly with the UK PM on Brexit… UK is not even present when the EU27 leaders discuss Brexit.”"
Misleading bollocks.
The PM is present when the PM is speaking to the 27. The PM is not present when the 27 speak amongst themselves.
You say the British prime minister negotiates with the 27 at such a council meeting, do you?
I say that if the PM and the 27 reach an agreement then that is the decision.
The UK formally requests an extension, and then EUCO (without the UK) decides on whether to grant it.
The opportunity for mischief would be if there was a mismatch in durations: the EU only offered a month, and we would only accept two, or somesuch.
Other that duration, I don't believe there could be conditionality, and the EU could - in those circumstances - just ignore the conditionality and grant the extension.
"We'd like to extend to November 30 and $100 billion please" "Congratulations you have succesfully extended to November 30" "But it was contitional on the $100bn!" "Congratulations you have succesfully extended to November 30"
I still dont understand why the Tories en masse just voted for a GE.
Do they want to lose many of their seats and almost certainly put Corbyn into No 10? Or was it because they knew the chance of it passing was virtually nil?
Surely the Tories, especially in Remain areas and in Scotland, should be shitting themselves at the prospect of a GE?
You are assuming they have made the same analysis of their prospects that you have. If they can maintain their poll rating, and if BXP do not cause too much fuss, and if Labour and the LDs get in each other's way, they win, possibly a majority. Sure they'd still lose some seats along the way, but overall it would be a win.
Now you might say that is a lot of ifs, or will not bear out in reality, but its easy to see why they believe it, and it is the same reason a lot of them voted for Boris in the first place - they think he has the best chance of saving their seats.
Whatever happens at the next election both Labour and Tory will be losing votes when compared to the last one. What will tell is where they lose votes and who to. we've not had an election like it in recent times
His stuttering wiffle waffle delivery has always made me think he couldnt possibly be a vote winner, right from the time I had a grand on Ken Livingstone to beat him to the 2008 Mayoralty
Jess Phillips faux working class hero act is as annoying
I thought she was brilliant tonight, speaking passionately and clearly in plain English and articulating what many of us feel about the way that people like Johnson and Rees Mogg treat politics like a game for their own amusement. I don't think there is anything faux about her - she isn't working class and doesn't claim to be. Not everyone who doesn't speak South east English RP is working class or pretending to be. It's only because so much of our political and media conversations are public school people talking to each other in their deathly boring plummy vowels that Jess Phillips is accused of pretending to live on a sink estate, when actually she just talks the way most people talk where she comes from.
Oh leave off. She said "There werent any kids like Nigel Farage at MY school" on This Week, the clear inference being there were no Posho's there, when she went to an all girl Grammar. The uninformed viewer would have assumed she went to an inner city Comp
Yesterday in the Commons she was saying she had to go round her mother in laws to print some documents as she hasnt got a printer.. its all a transparent act to appear down and dirty, when she is far from it
Its not her accent, its the things she says, and the impression she hopes they give.
If she went to an all girls school then, in fairness, there wouldn't have been many Nigels.
The KE Foundation in Birmingham takes bright children from all social classes. They're state grammar schools.
But few girls are called Nigel. Regardless of class.
His stuttering wiffle waffle delivery has always made me think he couldnt possibly be a vote winner, right from the time I had a grand on Ken Livingstone to beat him to the 2008 Mayoralty
Jess Phillips faux working class hero act is as annoying
I thought she was brilliant tonight, speaking passionately and clearly in plain English and articulating what many of us feel about the way that people like Johnson and Rees Mogg treat politics like a game for their own amusement. I don't think there is anything faux about her - she isn't working class and doesn't claim to be. Not everyone who doesn't speak South east English RP is working class or pretending to be. It's only because so much of our political and media conversations are public school people talking to each other in their deathly boring plummy vowels that Jess Phillips is accused of pretending to live on a sink estate, when actually she just talks the way most people talk where she comes from.
Oh leave off. She said "There werent any kids like Nigel Farage at MY school" on This Week, the clear inference being there were no Posho's there, when she went to an all girl Grammar. The uninformed viewer would have assumed she went to an inner city Comp
Yesterday in the Commons she was saying she had to go round her mother in laws to print some documents as she hasnt got a printer.. its all a transparent act to appear down and dirty, when she is far from it
Its not her accent, its the things she says, and the impression she hopes they give.
I assumed she was talking about boys. But maybe I'm just being too charitable.
His stuttering wiffle waffle delivery has always made me think he couldnt possibly be a vote winner, right from the time I had a grand on Ken Livingstone to beat him to the 2008 Mayoralty
Jess Phillips faux working class hero act is as annoying
I thought she was brilliant tonight, speaking passionately and clearly in plain English and articulating what many of us feel about the way that people like Johnson and Rees Mogg treat politics like a game for their own amusement. I don't think there is anything faux about her - she isn't working class and doesn't claim to be. Not everyone who doesn't speak South east English RP is working class or pretending to be. It's only because so much of our political and media conversations are public school people talking to each other in their deathly boring plummy vowels that Jess Phillips is accused of pretending to live on a sink estate, when actually she just talks the way most people talk where she comes from.
Oh leave off. She said "There werent any kids like Nigel Farage at MY school" on This Week, the clear inference being there were no Posho's there, when she went to an all girl Grammar. The uninformed viewer would have assumed she went to an inner city Comp
Yesterday in the Commons she was saying she had to go round her mother in laws to print some documents as she hasnt got a printer.. its all a transparent act to appear down and dirty, when she is far from it
Its not her accent, its the things she says, and the impression she hopes they give.
If she went to an all girls school then, in fairness, there wouldn't have been many Nigels.
The KE Foundation in Birmingham takes bright children from all social classes. They're state grammar schools.
But few girls are called Nigel. Regardless of class.
And even the Nigellas there are unlikely to be serenading the others with the Horst Wessell song, as young Farage allegedly was fond to do.
Nigel Farage is 2 years younger than me. In his teens he was singing Nazi songs in a Sussex village, where I was brought up. I was enjoying life and doing normal stuff, he was hating people. He won’t change, believe me.
"I got hammered today at the Court of session, costs against, because my case was that a prerogative power was justiciable. Here's another one with precisely the same shortcomings please fund it".
First they undermine our negotiation position yet again then they vote down an election so that they do not have to face the electorate that they have defied. A shower of shits is really way too generous a description for this Parliament.
While I have great respect for Clarke and the position he has taken, he was wrong when he said it was wrong that Boris was presenting those opposing him now as seeking to remain (or words to that effect). It's not true of most of the Tory rebels like him who did vote to leave multiple times, but there's no doubt that most of those proposing an extension as an end in itself actually want to remain. That's not even a secret.
But are we even negotiating? I get a lot of stuff has to be fairly secret, but what is the big concession we are going to make to unlock a major concession from the EU?
Worse than that- has anybody even been able to articulate what the deal could look like? It feels like a big category error being made by the "it'll get sorted at the October summit" crowd.
In some negotiations, you can tell pretty much from the get-go what the conclusion is going to be. Management offer a 2 % pay rise, unions want 4 %, late-night compromise will be about 2.95 %. Same sort of thing worked at Masstricht; most of Europe wanted stuff, UK didn't, late-night compromise was to sprinkle "except for the UK" over the text. If there was a solution to the competing wishes of the UK and rEU, I'd expect some bright sparks external to the process to have worked it out. Instead, the hope just seems to be that the other side will blink.
Well. Another dramatic day. Seems part of the strategy was to count on the opposition failing to agree. That seems to be receding into the distance. We pretty much have 2 and a bit parties now. A Tory party, an anti-Boris party, and a flotsam and jetsam of independent actors. GNU seems to be hoving into view as a possibility.
Fallon lost it when he agreed to make the dead cat attack againt Ed Miliband. Of course, the acts underlying the subsequent scandals pre-dated that. I doubt he will be much missed.
So, if Corbyn is content for Labour to vote for a GE once the bill outlawing no deal has received Royal Assent, he needs to whip together 136 Labour MPs to get a GE over the line by the 2/3rds route, or less if the SNP etc share his view. That seems do-able.
We all know the correct technical solution to the border. There have been papers published, including by the European Commission, on the solution.
The issue is not "is there a technical solution which removes the need for a hard border", it is "what happens between the end of the transition period and the implementation of the technical solution"?
There is also the - very reasonable - fear that the EU or Ireland will drag their feet once we're in the backstop, and that's why binding international arbitration was added to the WA backstop text.
First they undermine our negotiation position yet again then they vote down an election so that they do not have to face the electorate that they have defied. A shower of shits is really way too generous a description for this Parliament.
While I have great respect for Clarke and the position he has taken, he was wrong when he said it was wrong that Boris was presenting those opposing him now as seeking to remain (or words to that effect). It's not true of most of the Tory rebels like him who did vote to leave multiple times, but there's no doubt that most of those proposing an extension as an end in itself actually want to remain. That's not even a secret.
But are we even negotiating? I get a lot of stuff has to be fairly secret, but what is the big concession we are going to make to unlock a major concession from the EU?
If were serious about solving the backstop issue, we'd actually - you know - make our proposals known. I mean, it's not like we don't know what to do: extend the transition period to remove the need for the backstop.
On the day I resigned from the conservative party (as did my wife) as it is apparently it is not good enough for Ken Clarke, Rory Stewart, and other long standing mps, and I have seen Boris appearing out of his depth, my only consolation is that Stephen Kinnock has opened the door to TM, modified with labour, WDA being brought back to the floor of the HOC
It is the way to resolve it and leave on the 31st October and if stories that Cummings dislikes the ERG are true I would not be surprised if after the Council summit that Boris will reintroduce it and it passes to the relief of many and the nation
Comments
Won't happen, but be funny.
Salisbury is remarkable but somewhat sterile.
Damn, he's mad!
Noes 56
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1169339433147162625
God save us from these games, this gets more depressing with every single day. Throw out the whole lot.
Gee who's been suggesting that?
The backstop is b****ks and always has been.
Thanks JackW. Based on that division HMG fell well short of the 320- odd it would need to carry a one line 'Election Now' bill. Guess we'll have to see who was in the noe lobby before we can work out if they'd have the numbers.
https://twitter.com/allisterheath/status/1169349642800259073?s=21
Quite right to make him twist in the wind for a while longer with his imaginary renegotiations.
@rcs1000 asked earlier who to vote for for the WA. Well the answer is that Labour will renegotiate the PD to include CU etc then put it to a #peoplesvote, so vote for Jezza.
In this crazy world, Jezza is the sensible moderate centrist...
Can the Lords stand up for Democracy with the Commons so intent to wipe their arse on it?
O'Mara beat Nick Clegg ffsake.
Anyone can run as an independent for Parliament ! It is the rosette of course that counts.
But are we even negotiating? I get a lot of stuff has to be fairly secret, but what is the big concession we are going to make to unlock a major concession from the EU?
Do they want to lose many of their seats and almost certainly put Corbyn into No 10? Or was it because they knew the chance of it passing was virtually nil?
Surely the Tories, especially in Remain areas and in Scotland, should be shitting themselves at the prospect of a GE?
Your turn.
(oh for a time when GBJr was the worst politician in power in the west)
Now you might say that is a lot of ifs, or will not bear out in reality, but its easy to see why they believe it, and it is the same reason a lot of them voted for Boris in the first place - they think he has the best chance of saving their seats.
Is there any CHANGE they actually want ?
Paddy's Wigwam. From the inside.
That one in Barcelona.
The opportunity for mischief would be if there was a mismatch in durations: the EU only offered a month, and we would only accept two, or somesuch.
Other that duration, I don't believe there could be conditionality, and the EU could - in those circumstances - just ignore the conditionality and grant the extension.
"We'd like to extend to November 30 and $100 billion please"
"Congratulations you have succesfully extended to November 30"
"But it was contitional on the $100bn!"
"Congratulations you have succesfully extended to November 30"
Lords
Highbury
Banc of California Standium
The Oval
Wimbledon (tennis)
Old Trafford
Turf Moor
The Rose Bowl
The Coliseum
Wembley (old)
https://mobile.twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1169336927587315718
HMG would be forgiven for applying to class them as vexatious litigants.
NEW THREAD
In some negotiations, you can tell pretty much from the get-go what the conclusion is going to be. Management offer a 2 % pay rise, unions want 4 %, late-night compromise will be about 2.95 %. Same sort of thing worked at Masstricht; most of Europe wanted stuff, UK didn't, late-night compromise was to sprinkle "except for the UK" over the text. If there was a solution to the competing wishes of the UK and rEU, I'd expect some bright sparks external to the process to have worked it out. Instead, the hope just seems to be that the other side will blink.
GNU seems to be hoving into view as a possibility.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1169288488111562753?s=20
Senlis
Soissins
Beauvais
Amiens
Chartres
Brechin
Dunblane
St Andrews
Fortrose
We all know the correct technical solution to the border. There have been papers published, including by the European Commission, on the solution.
The issue is not "is there a technical solution which removes the need for a hard border", it is "what happens between the end of the transition period and the implementation of the technical solution"?
There is also the - very reasonable - fear that the EU or Ireland will drag their feet once we're in the backstop, and that's why binding international arbitration was added to the WA backstop text.
not good enough for Ken Clarke, Rory Stewart, and other long standing mps, and I have seen Boris appearing out of his depth, my only consolation is that Stephen Kinnock has opened the door to TM, modified with labour, WDA being brought back to the floor of the HOC
It is the way to resolve it and leave on the 31st October and if stories that Cummings dislikes the ERG are true I would not be surprised if after the Council summit that Boris will reintroduce it and it passes to the relief of many and the nation
And so I wish everyone a good nights rest
Good night folks