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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If Boris Johnson ignores the no deal law then 50/1 on him bein

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  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Jess socking it to them
  • nichomar said:

    Roger said:

    "Johnson is allowing unelected bureaucrats (Cummings) to run our government" David Gaulke

    Johnson says 'intense negotiations are going on now'

    "That's bullshit" says the EU chief negotiator.

    Ch 4 News is very funny. Boris can't help himself.

    If only we had a Monty Python de nos jours. They’d be having a field day.
    No, spitting images would nail it
    I stand corrected.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited September 2019
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    As a practical question, couldn't anyone have provided tellers? I assume Labour were against it too.

    I think that's where the skullduggery comes in. The government said they would provide tellers and by the time they didn't it was too late for anyone else to do so.

    Deeply dishonest if so.
    Those who live by testing of arcane procedures and creation of new precedent can hardly object to loudly to a legal if shitty move. And it doesn't seem like it matters all that much.
    Voting one way or another is one thing, but sabotaging a vote so that votes aren't counted is qualitatively different.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,780
    Gabs2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Do they have much scope for leverage? Boris has already lost his majority and can't get votes through. More rebels just allows him to get more loyal recruits in the next GE.
    No leverage needed. They just have to look lever-like.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I'm so old I remeber when May had skillfully turned the situation around and was poised to deliver a blow that would cause the Labour Party to split and ensure a thousand unbroken years of Tory government.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Jess Phillips says that the current PM is terrible. So have an election and get rid of him.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    I am at a loss as to know what is going on with this amendment.

    "Kinnock amdmt attaches a purpose to the extension bill, that purpose being to debate and pass the WA. Technically thfr, Govt could reintro WA, debate it, defeat it, say purpose was fulfilled, and extension Act no longer applies. Result: no deal Brexit 31 Oct."

    Evil genius Cummings strikes again. :D
  • Wow. Jess Phillips is boiling over with emotion.

    Very very angry.
  • I can’t remember a PM being treated with such little respect by the HoC in my lifetime.

    It is truly remarkable, the sheer scale of disregard, dislike, and disrespect he attracts from all sides of the house.
    If he’d acted with a degree of magnanimity following his election as Tory party leader (rather than ultra partisan to those who’d backed him alone), not tried to “game” Parliament through proroguement, and put a clearer strategy forward for the WA/PD modifications, this vote for No Deal might have been very close indeed.

    If it had still gone against him (it probably would have) he’d be in a better position to call a General Election.
    Enough of your diehard remainer talk.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869

    I can’t remember a PM being treated with deserving such little respect by the HoC in my lifetime.


    Corrected for you
  • spudgfsh said:

    Noo said:

    nichomar said:

    Blow the place up build a new one in Birmingham with all mod cons in a non confrontational semi circle this is bloody ridiculous

    +1

    no, fuck it, +2
    +3

    If I was a Unionist.

    Which I’m not.

    If there was a (more) proportional system of allocating seats which meant that parties would have to negotiate with the other side more often, not only would we get better laws we would also get less of this mess.
    cf Sweden
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    FF43 said:

    Noo said:

    nichomar said:

    Blow the place up build a new one in Birmingham with all mod cons in a non confrontational semi circle this is bloody ridiculous

    +1

    no, fuck it, +2
    Yes, because a semi circle solves it all.

    I mean, politics is so collaborative and non-confrontational in Edinburgh. Getting that extra 60 degrees of angle on your opponents and a slightly sore neck makes all the difference.
    Actually it is. The problem in Scotland is that the governance is very cosy. Everyone is a pal of everyone else. While I'm not keen on confrontation for the sake of it, I think people should be challenged.
    FF43 said:

    Noo said:

    nichomar said:

    Blow the place up build a new one in Birmingham with all mod cons in a non confrontational semi circle this is bloody ridiculous

    +1

    no, fuck it, +2
    Yes, because a semi circle solves it all.

    I mean, politics is so collaborative and non-confrontational in Edinburgh. Getting that extra 60 degrees of angle on your opponents and a slightly sore neck makes all the difference.
    Actually it is. The problem in Scotland is that the governance is very cosy. Everyone is a pal of everyone else. While I'm not keen on confrontation for the sake of it, I think people should be challenged.
    I don’t see any evidence that the geometric seating arrangements in a parliamentary chamber affect the quality of its politics.

    It’s a myth.

    There’s possibly a placebo effect from simply “resetting” an old institution into a new one, somewhere else, but that would be a temporary effect and the seating layout is peripheral to it.

    Just as every appeal to stop Punch and Judy politics is, it’s something people say that makes no difference.
    I think Westminster is almost designed to be a bear pit. Holyrood is definitely a less confrontational place. I agree parliament design is only part of that. The Scottish electoral system encourages collaboration as does the committee system. Most of all the political class is much smaller in Scotland and everyone is at least a friend of a friend of everyone else. Finally Scotland is much less formal than England in its governance, and has been for centuries.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    Wow. Jess Phillips is boiling over with emotion.

    Very very angry.

    Boris has been driving lefties like Jess absolutely crazy since 2008.
  • I can’t remember a PM being treated with such little respect by the HoC in my lifetime.

    It is truly remarkable, the sheer scale of disregard, dislike, and disrespect he attracts from all sides of the house.
    If he’d acted with a degree of magnanimity following his election as Tory party leader (rather than ultra partisan to those who’d backed him alone), not tried to “game” Parliament through proroguement, and put a clearer strategy forward for the WA/PD modifications, this vote for No Deal might have been very close indeed.

    If it had still gone against him (it probably would have) he’d be in a better position to call a General Election.
    Enough of your diehard remainer talk.
    It’s no secret that I favour a Deal and felt Theresa May’s Deal was a good one.

    Failing that another compromise is needed, which means a bit of give and take each way.
  • I've just had dinner with someone who ate a Hawaiian pizza in my company.

    I'm currently in my safe space so has anything major happened in the last few hours?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133
    edited September 2019

    You sort of think the politics around Brexit can't get any more fucked up.

    And then you realise, no, no I was wrong, they can.

    TM will have a huge smile on her face tonight

    Her deal is nearer today than it has been, especially in view of Cummings disregard for the ERG

    If Cummings was the architect of getting the Kinnock amendment through tonight that is where Boris is going in mid October
    Forgive me for ignorance, but why is May's deal more likely than ever? I can't follow what is going on.

    Regardless of political implications, it would be a good thing though.
    It is difficult to follow but Kinnocks amendment to bring back the WDA to the HOC was voted for and became integral to the bill on third reading. The consequence is that on RA the government are required to re- introduce the WDA as agreed by TM with the labour working group before she resigned

    On a point of order Kinnock asked the PM when would the bill be brought forward

    It is sensational and is the key to unlock no deal if mps have any common sense
  • Clarke just a representative of Brussels.

    He is a lifelong supporter of the EU but he did vote for the WDA.

    Well yes, Clarke's consistent support for the WDA is precisely why it shouldn't be regarded as anything close to a meaningful Brexit.
  • Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Jess Philips is box office
  • Gabs2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Do they have much scope for leverage? Boris has already lost his majority and can't get votes through. More rebels just allows him to get more loyal recruits in the next GE.
    Divided parties don't win majorities.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,683
    edited September 2019
    I think Boris will say, 'The buggers in parliament stopped me from getting any further concessions from the EU so Theresa's Deal it is then.' Even if parliament then rejects it he will have passed the blame for No Deal onto others. What a masterstroke!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    I've just had dinner with someone who ate a Hawaiian pizza in my company.

    I'm currently in my safe space so has anything major happened in the last few hours?

    Just a bit of idle chatter.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    Gabs2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Do they have much scope for leverage? Boris has already lost his majority and can't get votes through. More rebels just allows him to get more loyal recruits in the next GE.
    Depends on how many of the ejected Tories are prepared to contest their seats as independents.
  • IanB2 said:

    Gabs2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Do they have much scope for leverage? Boris has already lost his majority and can't get votes through. More rebels just allows him to get more loyal recruits in the next GE.
    Depends on how many of the ejected Tories are prepared to contest their seats as independents.
    And evnif they don’t, is a hard Brexiteer really going to get elected in seats like Wimbledon (S Hammond)?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,912

    I've just had dinner with someone who ate a Hawaiian pizza in my company.

    I'm currently in my safe space so has anything major happened in the last few hours?

    https://old.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriating/comments/czk1yc/stop_complaining_about_pineapple_on_pizza_while/

    Click the link if you dare.
  • FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Noo said:

    nichomar said:

    Blow the place up build a new one in Birmingham with all mod cons in a non confrontational semi circle this is bloody ridiculous

    +1

    no, fuck it, +2
    Yes, because a semi circle solves it all.

    I mean, politics is so collaborative and non-confrontational in Edinburgh. Getting that extra 60 degrees of angle on your opponents and a slightly sore neck makes all the difference.
    Actually it is. The problem in Scotland is that the governance is very cosy. Everyone is a pal of everyone else. While I'm not keen on confrontation for the sake of it, I think people should be challenged.
    FF43 said:

    Noo said:

    nichomar said:

    Blow the place up build a new one in Birmingham with all mod cons in a non confrontational semi circle this is bloody ridiculous

    +1

    no, fuck it, +2
    Yes, because a semi circle solves it all.

    I mean, politics is so collaborative and non-confrontational in Edinburgh. Getting that extra 60 degrees of angle on your opponents and a slightly sore neck makes all the difference.
    Actually it is. The problem in Scotland is that the governance is very cosy. Everyone is a pal of everyone else. While I'm not keen on confrontation for the sake of it, I think people should be challenged.
    I don’t see any evidence that the geometric seating arrangements in a parliamentary chamber affect the quality of its politics.

    It’s a myth.

    There’s possibly a placebo effect from simply “resetting” an old institution into a new one, somewhere else, but that would be a temporary effect and the seating layout is peripheral to it.

    Just as every appeal to stop Punch and Judy politics is, it’s something people say that makes no difference.
    I think Westminster is almost designed to be a bear pit. Holyrood is definitely a less confrontational place. I agree parliament design is only part of that. The Scottish electoral system encourages collaboration as does the committee system. Most of all the political class is much smaller in Scotland and everyone is at least a friend of a friend of everyone else. Finally Scotland is much less formal than England in its governance, and has been for centuries.
    “Less formal”? Well, quite.

    Try Henry Dundas for starters.
  • I think people are overthinking the government allowing the Kinnock amendment through. They just wanted to avoid a vote that would have split the party further.

    Worried Willam
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Scott_P said:

    Jess Philips is box office

    She hates you just as much as she hates Boris. It's just that it's Boris that is in her sights at the moment.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494
    Scott_P said:

    Jess Philips is box office

    My estimation in her went up a lot when I listened to her edition of Nick Robinsons podcast 'Political Thinking'.
  • Scott_P said:
    Would the "One Nation" MPs have been upset if Cash and Redwood had voted against Major in 93 on Maasricht and had the whip removed?

    What's sauce for the goose . . .
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    tlg86 said:

    She hates you just as much as she hates Boris. It's just that it's Boris that is in her sights at the moment.

    Probably true, but it's still fun to watch
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Wow. Jess Phillips is boiling over with emotion.

    Very very angry.

    Need Cameron in to tell her to “calm down dear”.

    Has she been in the bar with Soubry ?
  • Clarke just a representative of Brussels.

    He is a lifelong supporter of the EU but he did vote for the WDA.

    Well yes, Clarke's consistent support for the WDA is precisely why it shouldn't be regarded as anything close to a meaningful Brexit.
    So if a remainer compromises, that deal cannot be a meaningful Brexit by definition, and therefore the remainer did not even compromise.....

    Did you come up with trials by drowning in a previous life perhaps?

  • I think Boris will say, 'The buggers in parliament stopped me from getting any further concessions from the EU so Theresa's Deal it is then.' Even if parliament then rejects it he will have passed the blame for No Deal onto others. What a masterstroke!

    Aye, BoZo is a master stroke right enough.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,517
    nichomar said:

    Jess socking it to them

    Absolutely superb from Jess
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    You've got to hand it Boris. He sure has brought real unity of purpose.
    To the opposition anyway.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited September 2019

    I think Boris will say, 'The buggers in parliament stopped me from getting any further concessions from the EU so Theresa's Deal it is then.' Even if parliament then rejects it he will have passed the blame for No Deal onto others. What a masterstroke!

    This bears some relation to what I was thinking. If the amendment isnt struck down in the Lords, Johnson gets either potentially some of the 21 back on board and May's WA through, or a no-deal that the right of the party would be happy with, but blamed on Labour. Either way the party may stay intact, as it can claim to have supported both the pragmatic or radical Leave causes.

    We might be over-attributing Cumming's cunnings, ofcourse.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,080
    rcs1000 said:

    Question for PBers

    If you're a Leaver, but you generally liked Mrs May's deal, and you want to leave the EU in an orderly fashion, who do you vote for?

    I don't know, as yet.

    Good evening, everyone.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    TGOHF said:

    Wow. Jess Phillips is boiling over with emotion.

    Very very angry.

    Need Cameron in to tell her to “calm down dear”.

    Has she been in the bar with Soubry ?
    You really are an unpleasant person
  • FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Noo said:

    nichomar said:

    Blow the place up build a new one in Birmingham with all mod cons in a non confrontational semi circle this is bloody ridiculous

    +1

    no, fuck it, +2
    Yes, because a semi circle solves it all.

    I mean, politics is so collaborative and non-confrontational in Edinburgh. Getting that extra 60 degrees of angle on your opponents and a slightly sore neck makes all the difference.
    Actually it is. The problem in Scotland is that the governance is very cosy. Everyone is a pal of everyone else. While I'm not keen on confrontation for the sake of it, I think people should be challenged.
    FF43 said:

    Noo said:

    nichomar said:

    Blow the place up build a new one in Birmingham with all mod cons in a non confrontational semi circle this is bloody ridiculous

    +1

    no, fuck it, +2
    Yes, because a semi circle solves it all.

    I mean, politics is so collaborative and non-confrontational in Edinburgh. Getting that extra 60 degrees of angle on your opponents and a slightly sore neck makes all the difference.
    Actually it is. The problem in Scotland is that the governance is very cosy. Everyone is a pal of everyone else. While I'm not keen on confrontation for the sake of it, I think people should be challenged.
    I don’t see any evidence that the geometric seating arrangements in a parliamentary chamber affect the quality of its politics.

    It’s a myth.

    There’s possibly a placebo effect from simply “resetting” an old institution into a new one, somewhere else, but that would be a temporary effect and the seating layout is peripheral to it.

    Just as every appeal to stop Punch and Judy politics is, it’s something people say that makes no difference.
    I think Westminster is almost designed to be a bear pit. Holyrood is definitely a less confrontational place. I agree parliament design is only part of that. The Scottish electoral system encourages collaboration as does the committee system. Most of all the political class is much smaller in Scotland and everyone is at least a friend of a friend of everyone else. Finally Scotland is much less formal than England in its governance, and has been for centuries.
    On that I really do agree
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,893

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Or simply because he's from Gaeldom? He's born and educated in Barra in the Outer Isles and a Gaelic speaker.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Scott_P said:

    Jess Philips is box office

    Yes, a hammy actress.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,517

    I can’t remember a PM being treated with such little respect by the HoC in my lifetime.

    It is truly remarkable, the sheer scale of disregard, dislike, and disrespect he attracts from all sides of the house.
    If he’d acted with a degree of magnanimity following his election as Tory party leader (rather than ultra partisan to those who’d backed him alone), not tried to “game” Parliament through proroguement, and put a clearer strategy forward for the WA/PD modifications, this vote for No Deal might have been very close indeed.

    If it had still gone against him (it probably would have) he’d be in a better position to call a General Election.
    Enough of your diehard remainer talk.
    It’s no secret that I favour a Deal and felt Theresa May’s Deal was a good one.

    Failing that another compromise is needed, which means a bit of give and take each way.
    The Deal wasn’t my ideal scenario but - as I said on here at the time - I would have voted for it when presented.
  • Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    AnneJGP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Question for PBers

    If you're a Leaver, but you generally liked Mrs May's deal, and you want to leave the EU in an orderly fashion, who do you vote for?

    I don't know, as yet.

    Good evening, everyone.
    Good evening Anne. :)
  • FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Noo said:

    nichomar said:

    Blow the place up build a new one in Birmingham with all mod cons in a non confrontational semi circle this is bloody ridiculous

    +1

    no, fuck it, +2
    Yes, because a semi circle solves it all.

    I mean, politics is so collaborative and non-confrontational in Edinburgh. Getting that extra 60 degrees of angle on your opponents and a slightly sore neck makes all the difference.
    Actually it is. The problem in Scotland is that the governance is very cosy. Everyone is a pal of everyone else. While I'm not keen on confrontation for the sake of it, I think people should be challenged.
    FF43 said:

    Noo said:

    nichomar said:

    Blow the place up build a new one in Birmingham with all mod cons in a non confrontational semi circle this is bloody ridiculous

    +1

    no, fuck it, +2
    Yes, because a semi circle solves it all.

    I mean, politics is so collaborative and non-confrontational in Edinburgh. Getting that extra 60 degrees of angle on your opponents and a slightly sore neck makes all the difference.
    Actually it is. The problem in Scotland is that the governance is very cosy. Everyone is a pal of everyone else. While I'm not keen on confrontation for the sake of it, I think people should be challenged.
    I don’t see any evidence that the geometric seating arrangements in a parliamentary chamber affect the quality of its politics.

    It’s a myth.

    There’s possibly a placebo effect from simply “resetting” an old institution into a new one, somewhere else, but that would be a temporary effect and the seating layout is peripheral to it.

    Just as every appeal to stop Punch and Judy politics is, it’s something people say that makes no difference.
    I think Westminster is almost designed to be a bear pit. Holyrood is definitely a less confrontational place. I agree parliament design is only part of that. The Scottish electoral system encourages collaboration as does the committee system. Most of all the political class is much smaller in Scotland and everyone is at least a friend of a friend of everyone else. Finally Scotland is much less formal than England in its governance, and has been for centuries.
    I don’t see the evidence for that collaboration in Scotland that’s distinctly better. It happens in the UK too by select committees which sit in committee rooms within the Palace of Westminster where genuine cross-party dialogue and collaborative work does take place.

    But politics done along party lines is, by its very nature, adversarial.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited September 2019
    isam said:

    Yes, a hammy actress.

    She can deliver the lines better than BoZo

    He totally fluffed PMQs
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    nichomar said:

    TGOHF said:

    Wow. Jess Phillips is boiling over with emotion.

    Very very angry.

    Need Cameron in to tell her to “calm down dear”.

    Has she been in the bar with Soubry ?
    You really are an unpleasant person
    She was ranting and raving - hardly parliamentary behaviour.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    You sort of think the politics around Brexit can't get any more fucked up.

    And then you realise, no, no I was wrong, they can.

    TM will have a huge smile on her face tonight

    Her deal is nearer today than it has been, especially in view of Cummings disregard for the ERG

    If Cummings was the architect of getting the Kinnock amendment through tonight that is where Boris is going in mid October
    I predict if it comes to a vote it will go down by more than it did in MV1, unless there are real amendments.
    It has Tory loyalist and Labour against it now.
  • tlg86 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Jess Philips is box office

    She hates you just as much as she hates Boris. It's just that it's Boris that is in her sights at the moment.

    To be fair, I think the key thing is that respect for and trust in Boris is in very short supply amongst his fellow Parliamentarians.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    TGOHF said:

    nichomar said:

    TGOHF said:

    Wow. Jess Phillips is boiling over with emotion.

    Very very angry.

    Need Cameron in to tell her to “calm down dear”.

    Has she been in the bar with Soubry ?
    You really are an unpleasant person
    She was ranting and raving - hardly parliamentary behaviour.
    You do realise Boris described Labour policy as ‘shit’ in the house earlier?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    nichomar said:

    TGOHF said:

    Wow. Jess Phillips is boiling over with emotion.

    Very very angry.

    Need Cameron in to tell her to “calm down dear”.

    Has she been in the bar with Soubry ?
    You really are an unpleasant person
    She was ranting and raving - hardly parliamentary behaviour.
    You do realise Boris described Labour policy as ‘shit’ in the house earlier?
    That was actually pretty generous of him.
  • TGOHF said:

    nichomar said:

    TGOHF said:

    Wow. Jess Phillips is boiling over with emotion.

    Very very angry.

    Need Cameron in to tell her to “calm down dear”.

    Has she been in the bar with Soubry ?
    You really are an unpleasant person
    She was ranting and raving - hardly parliamentary behaviour.
    You do realise Boris described Labour policy as ‘shit’ in the house earlier?
    Do you object to Boris being honest?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    nichomar said:

    TGOHF said:

    Wow. Jess Phillips is boiling over with emotion.

    Very very angry.

    Need Cameron in to tell her to “calm down dear”.

    Has she been in the bar with Soubry ?
    You really are an unpleasant person
    She was ranting and raving - hardly parliamentary behaviour.
    You do realise Boris described Labour policy as ‘shit’ in the house earlier?
    That was actually pretty generous of him.
    Maybe so, but its not very parliamentary behavior is it?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133
    edited September 2019
    kle4 said:

    You sort of think the politics around Brexit can't get any more fucked up.

    And then you realise, no, no I was wrong, they can.

    TM will have a huge smile on her face tonight

    Her deal is nearer today than it has been, especially in view of Cummings disregard for the ERG

    If Cummings was the architect of getting the Kinnock amendment through tonight that is where Boris is going in mid October
    I predict if it comes to a vote it will go down by more than it did in MV1, unless there are real amendments.
    It has Tory loyalist and Labour against it now.
    There was a stella cross party cast on the front of the amendment
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,893

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    Actually it is. The problem in Scotland is that the governance is very cosy. Everyone is a pal of everyone else. While I'm not keen on confrontation for the sake of it, I think people should be challenged.

    FF43 said:

    Noo said:

    nichomar said:

    Blow the place up build a new one in Birmingham with all mod cons in a non confrontational semi circle this is bloody ridiculous

    +1

    no, fuck it, +2
    Yes, because a semi circle solves it all.

    I mean, politics is so collaborative and non-confrontational in Edinburgh. Getting that extra 60 degrees of angle on your opponents and a slightly sore neck makes all the difference.
    Actually it is. The problem in Scotland is that the governance is very cosy. Everyone is a pal of everyone else. While I'm not keen on confrontation for the sake of it, I think people should be challenged.
    I don’t see any evidence that the geometric seating arrangements in a parliamentary chamber affect the quality of its politics.

    It’s a myth.

    There’s possibly a placebo effect from simply “resetting” an old institution into a new one, somewhere else, but that would be a temporary effect and the seating layout is peripheral to it.

    Just as every appeal to stop Punch and Judy politics is, it’s something people say that makes no difference.
    I think Westminster is almost designed to be a bear pit. Holyrood is definitely a less confrontational place. I agree parliament design is only part of that. The Scottish electoral system encourages collaboration as does the committee system. Most of all the political class is much smaller in Scotland and everyone is at least a friend of a friend of everyone else. Finally Scotland is much less formal than England in its governance, and has been for centuries.
    I don’t see the evidence for that collaboration in Scotland that’s distinctly better. It happens in the UK too by select committees which sit in committee rooms within the Palace of Westminster where genuine cross-party dialogue and collaborative work does take place.

    But politics done along party lines is, by its very nature, adversarial.
    Just look at Westminster tonight. The Scots got their agreed view on Brexit together at Holyrood very quickly along cross-party lines, years ago - two or three? - the Tories apart.

    Whether this had anything to do with Senor Miralles' architecture is perhaps another matter.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Lucas dying on her feet here - can’t even memorise a short speech.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    FF43 said:

    I think Westminster is almost designed to be a bear pit. Holyrood is definitely a less confrontational place. I agree parliament design is only part of that. The Scottish electoral system encourages collaboration as does the committee system. Most of all the political class is much smaller in Scotland and everyone is at least a friend of a friend of everyone else. Finally Scotland is much less formal than England in its governance, and has been for centuries.

    On that I really do agree
    What is required as an English equivalent of Holyrood, with Westminster getting cut right down to size. It's not only right in principle, but it could aid good governance in practice. The UK Parliament (and Government) might actually perform better if they didn't have such a vast array of responsibilities.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Jess Philips is box office

    She hates you just as much as she hates Boris. It's just that it's Boris that is in her sights at the moment.

    To be fair, I think the key thing is that respect for and trust in Boris is in very short supply amongst his fellow Parliamentarians.
    I said this on here not that long ago, but I find it hard to get worked up about all this. All my life Labour politicians have been outraged by Tory politicians. It's their default position. Is Boris a total shit? Yes. Does the House of Commons deserve him? Absolutely.
  • Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    I admire your optimism Big G however we’re in the election endgame now. I doubt we’ll see that WA again.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478
    Carnyx said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Or simply because he's from Gaeldom? He's born and educated in Barra in the Outer Isles and a Gaelic speaker.
    People in SW Scotland...... yes, I know where the Hebrides are...... spoke a form of Welsh up until about 800-1000AD.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited September 2019
    Scott_P said:

    isam said:

    Yes, a hammy actress.

    She can deliver the lines better than BoZo

    He totally fluffed PMQs
    His stuttering wiffle waffle delivery has always made me think he couldnt possibly be a vote winner, right from the time I had a grand on Ken Livingstone to beat him to the 2008 Mayoralty

    Jess Phillips faux working class hero act is as annoying
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
  • FF43 said:

    I think Westminster is almost designed to be a bear pit. Holyrood is definitely a less confrontational place. I agree parliament design is only part of that. The Scottish electoral system encourages collaboration as does the committee system. Most of all the political class is much smaller in Scotland and everyone is at least a friend of a friend of everyone else. Finally Scotland is much less formal than England in its governance, and has been for centuries.

    On that I really do agree
    What is required as an English equivalent of Holyrood, with Westminster getting cut right down to size. It's not only right in principle, but it could aid good governance in practice. The UK Parliament (and Government) might actually perform better if they didn't have such a vast array of responsibilities.
    Aha! The CEP gambit. An oldie and a goldie.
  • Carnyx said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    Actually it is. The problem in Scotland is that the governance is very cosy. Everyone is a pal of everyone else. While I'm not keen on confrontation for the sake of it, I think people should be challenged.

    FF43 said:

    Noo said:

    nichomar said:

    Blow the place up build a new one in Birmingham with all mod cons in a non confrontational semi circle this is bloody ridiculous

    +1

    no, fuck it, +2
    Yes, because a semi circle solves it all.

    I mean, politics is so collaborative and non-confrontational in Edinburgh. Getting that extra 60 degrees of angle on your opponents and a slightly sore neck makes all the difference.
    Actually it is. The problem in Scotland is that the governance is very cosy. Everyone is a pal of everyone else. While I'm not keen on confrontation for the sake of it, I think people should be challenged.
    I don’t see any evidence that the geometric seating arrangements in a parliamentary chamber affect the quality of its politics.

    It’s a myth.

    There’s possibly a placebo effect from simply “resetting” an old institution into a new one, somewhere else, but that would be a temporary effect and the seating layout is peripheral to it.

    Just as every appeal to stop Punch and Judy politics is, it’s something people say that makes no difference.
    I think Westminster is almost designed to be a bear pit. Holyrood is definitely a less confrontational place. I agree parliament design is only part of that. The Scottish electoral system encourages collaboration as does the committee system. Most of all the political class is much smaller in Scotland and everyone is at least a friend of a friend of everyone else. Finally Scotland is much less formal than England in its governance, and has been for centuries.
    I don’t see the evidence for that collaboration in Scotland that’s distinctly better. It happens in the UK too by select committees which sit in committee rooms within the Palace of Westminster where genuine cross-party dialogue and collaborative work does take place.

    But politics done along party lines is, by its very nature, adversarial.
    Just look at Westminster tonight. The Scots got their agreed view on Brexit together at Holyrood very quickly along cross-party lines, years ago - two or three? - the Tories apart.

    Whether this had anything to do with Senor Miralles' architecture is perhaps another matter.
    That’s a reflection of party politics in Scotland, IMHO.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    BoZo has run away again. Didn't even wait to hear the debate on his own motion.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    Are there any Johnson fans on here who'd like to argue that he has been anything other than woeful over the past couple of days?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    edited September 2019
    Twitter thread from Damian Grammaticas discussing Johnson's complete ignorance of the procedure at the EU meeting in October:
    https://twitter.com/dngbbc/status/1169328487980830721
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    TGOHF said:

    nichomar said:

    TGOHF said:

    Wow. Jess Phillips is boiling over with emotion.

    Very very angry.

    Need Cameron in to tell her to “calm down dear”.

    Has she been in the bar with Soubry ?
    You really are an unpleasant person
    She was ranting and raving - hardly parliamentary behaviour.
    You do realise Boris described Labour policy as ‘shit’ in the house earlier?
    Do you object to Boris being honest?
    It would certainly be a novelty.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,893

    Carnyx said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    Actually it is. The problem in Scotland is that the governance is very cosy. Everyone is a pal of everyone else. While I'm not keen on confrontation for the sake of it, I think people should be challenged.

    FF43 said:

    Noo said:



    +1

    no, fuck it, +2

    Yes, because a semi circle solves it all.

    I mean, politics is so collaborative and non-confrontational in Edinburgh. Getting that extra 60 degrees of angle on your opponents and a slightly sore neck makes all the difference.
    Actually it is. The problem in Scotland is that the governance is very cosy. Everyone is a pal of everyone else. While I'm not keen on confrontation for the sake of it, I think people should be challenged.
    I don’t see any evidence that the geometric seating arrangements in a parliamentary chamber affect the quality of its politics.

    It’s a myth.

    There’s possibly a placebo effect from simply “resetting” an old institution into a new one, somewhere else, but that would be a temporary effect and the seating layout is peripheral to it.

    Just as every appeal to stop Punch and Judy politics is, it’s something people say that makes no difference.
    I think Westminster is almost designed to be a bear pit. Holyrood is definitely a less confrontational place. I agree parliament design is only part of that. The Scottish electoral system encourages collaboration as does the committee system. Most of all the political class is much smaller in Scotland and everyone is at least a friend of a friend of everyone else. Finally Scotland is much less formal than England in its governance, and has been for centuries.
    I don’t see the evidence for that collaboration in Scotland that’s distinctly better. It happens in the UK too by select committees which sit in committee rooms within the Palace of Westminster where genuine cross-party dialogue and collaborative work does take place.

    But politics done along party lines is, by its very nature, adversarial.
    Just look at Westminster tonight. The Scots got their agreed view on Brexit together at Holyrood very quickly along cross-party lines, years ago - two or three? - the Tories apart.

    Whether this had anything to do with Senor Miralles' architecture is perhaps another matter.
    That’s a reflection of party politics in Scotland, IMHO.
    To some extent admittedly - but also the voting system designed to be the opposite of FPTP and enforce minority governments (not always successfully).
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Jess Philips is box office

    She hates you just as much as she hates Boris. It's just that it's Boris that is in her sights at the moment.

    To be fair, I think the key thing is that respect for and trust in Boris is in very short supply amongst his fellow Parliamentarians.
    And it was always so - for example the frosty reception he got when he spoke after his cabinet resignation - with the striking exception of the brief period of the Tory leadership campaign.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Chris said:
    People aren’t interested in detail like this unfortunately.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,517

    Are there any Johnson fans on here who'd like to argue that he has been anything other than woeful over the past couple of days?

    That’s a fair question! I don’t recall any!!
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Sir Bernard Jenkin talking a lot of sense - parliament is diminishing itself.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Conservative MPs arguing for an election, other MPs don't want one. It's a bit difficult to accuse the Tories of being anti-democratic in those circumstances.
  • Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    I suspected as much. All flamboyant, drooping appendage, with unsatisfactory engineering.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    AndyJS said:

    Conservative MPs arguing for an election, other MPs don't want one. It's a bit difficult to accuse the Tories of being anti-democratic in those circumstances.

    Why? Boris told us the people don’t want an election.
  • I admire your optimism Big G however we’re in the election endgame now. I doubt we’ll see that WA again.

    If this no deal bill gains RA it is mandated in the bill just as much as the extension
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    Very selfless from Anne Main wanting a GE that'll almost certainly finish her tenure.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    As a practical question, couldn't anyone have provided tellers? I assume Labour were against it too.

    I think that's where the skullduggery comes in. The government said they would provide tellers and by the time they didn't it was too late for anyone else to do so.

    Deeply dishonest if so.
    Those who live by testing of arcane procedures and creation of new precedent can hardly object to loudly to a legal if shitty move. And it doesn't seem like it matters all that much.
    Voting one way or another is one thing, but sabotaging a vote so that votes aren't counted is qualitatively different.
    I thought they didn't trust the government even to follow a law which said the date of an election would be X? But they trusted them to follow normal procedures when its life is on the line?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,517
    AndyJS said:

    Conservative MPs arguing for an election, other MPs don't want one. It's a bit difficult to accuse the Tories of being anti-democratic in those circumstances.

    I think Corbyn’s poisoned apple analogy pretty much nails it TBH.

    Boris needs an election before 31 Oct or he’s in a bit of trouble I think.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    Are there any Johnson fans on here who'd like to argue that he has been anything other than woeful over the past couple of days?

    I’m sure many of us could provide other disobliging epithets, but I can’t really be bothered tonight.
    Res ipsa loquitur...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    I admire your optimism Big G however we’re in the election endgame now. I doubt we’ll see that WA again.

    If this no deal bill gains RA it is mandated in the bill just as much as the extension
    It isn't. It merely mandates that the official ‘reason’ for the extension is for MPs to debate and vote for the WA.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Are there any Johnson fans on here who'd like to argue that he has been anything other than woeful over the past couple of days?

    Me. And I am an interesting example. Let me explain.

    I am in provincial Greece. Thanks to time differences and lack of TV I am generally unable to follow the Commons live. So I dip in and out and catch the major sound bites on the BBC/Sky news etc

    In other words, I absorb the news like a normal person, rather than a PB geek.

    And seen through the prism of normal news, Boris is doing fine. I keep reading the hysteria on PB and then I check with the iPlayer to see Boris publicly soil himself in front of the Dalai Lama’s great aunt, as promised, but it never happens. I see Boris being Boris, I see Corbyn being Corbyn, I see a lot of MPs shouting, for obscure reasons.

    This is what most British voters will see. At most. I expect the ructions of the last week will barely budge the polls, and if they do, it could easily be in Boris’ favour, because everyone is bored of seeing MPs shouting for obscure reasons.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    This time of the evening I’d imagine you’d be tending towards the horizontal.
  • Chris said:
    People aren’t interested in detail like this unfortunately.
    Because its total bollocks.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Apologies if this has been posted - but Ken is a class act!

    Ken Clarke people, he is fast becoming our Senator McCain (long may the former yet live) https://t.co/BzP4oyverf

    — أبو عمّار (@MaajidNawaz) September 4, 2019
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Chris said:
    People aren’t interested in detail like this unfortunately.
    It's a detail that Johnson thinks he would be going to the meeting a fortnight before Brexit day to negotiate, when he wouldn't?

    What kind of thing would you consider not to be a detail?

    We know that before he was elected leader he thought there would still be a transition period after No Deal. I had assumed that at least some information would have been drilled into his thick head by now somehow.

    Given the fact that he's still clueless about how the process works, perhaps not.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    TGOHF said:

    Sir Bernard Jenkin talking a lot of sense - parliament is diminishing itself.

    After Tory MPs and members put Bozo in charge, further diminishment than that isn’t possible.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Nigelb said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Angus MacNeil has a fantastic accent.

    A Scottish one that sounds Welsh.

    Idiot.

    He’s a Gael.
    You have the most fantastically baroque and elaborate inferiority complex I have ever encountered. Congrats.
    Ta.

    What are the roots of your late gothic superiority complex?
    The Perpendicular.
    This time of the evening I’d imagine you’d be tending towards the horizontal.
    You’re all missing my gag. Oh well.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Byronic said:

    Are there any Johnson fans on here who'd like to argue that he has been anything other than woeful over the past couple of days?

    Me. And I am an interesting example. Let me explain.

    I am in provincial Greece. Thanks to time differences and lack of TV I am generally unable to follow the Commons live. So I dip in and out and catch the major sound bites on the BBC/Sky news etc

    In other words, I absorb the news like a normal person, rather than a PB geek.

    And seen through the prism of normal news, Boris is doing fine. I keep reading the hysteria on PB and then I check with the iPlayer to see Boris publicly soil himself in front of the Dalai Lama’s great aunt, as promised, but it never happens. I see Boris being Boris, I see Corbyn being Corbyn, I see a lot of MPs shouting, for obscure reasons.

    This is what most British voters will see. At most. I expect the ructions of the last week will barely budge the polls, and if they do, it could easily be in Boris’ favour, because everyone is bored of seeing MPs shouting for obscure reasons.
    LOL you've been on PB 24/7 for the past few days.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Chris said:
    People aren’t interested in detail like this unfortunately.
    Because its total bollocks.
    In what way is it "bollocks"?
This discussion has been closed.