Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Those MPs were elected by the people in 2017. If Boris doesn't like it he should call an election.
They were elected on the promise of respecting the referendum result
Who was? Not the Lib Dems. Not the SNP. Not the Green Party. Not Plaid Cymru.
If you mean the Labour Party, they were elected to implement their version of a soft Brexit. Not any old Brexit. Certainly not no deal.
The key comments so far seem to me to be the anti-Brexit but anti-Corbyn rebels (not least Grieve) who are starting to switch to backing a VONC instead of pursuing new legislation. If that gathers steam then Johnson could be out by the end of next week, irrespective of what happens then.
But this isn’t true. I’ve just been reading the FTPA (how tragic is that. In the Greek sunshine)
Boris does not have to resign, immediately, after a VONC. It’s just a convention. He can sit tight and call an election for a date after Brexit Halloween.
Johnson risks paying a high political price for this without receiving any political benefit because even this kind of gesture doesn't change the substance.
Oh it does, provided he delivers Brexit Boris almost certainly wins the next general election, if he does not he won't
The key comments so far seem to me to be the anti-Brexit but anti-Corbyn rebels (not least Grieve) who are starting to switch to backing a VONC instead of pursuing new legislation. If that gathers steam then Johnson could be out by the end of next week, irrespective of what happens then.
But this isn’t true. I’ve just been reading the FTPA (how tragic is that. In the Greek sunshine)
Boris does not have to resign. It’s just a convention. He can sit tight and call an election for a date after Brexit Halloween.
Not if he is replaced by a GONU, or the FTPA is subsequently amended
Let's assume for the moment that the proposed application for interim interdict doesn't succeed. Let's assume that Parliament convenes next week and a VONC is moved and passed. Do Labour support a motion for instant dissolution of Parliament or do we wait 14 days? Surely it has to be instant if we are to have an election before 31st October. Furthermore how does dissolution and the FTPA interact? How can you have a vote of confidence if Parliament isn't sitting? I think that it is at least implied that Parliament is sitting for those 14 days.
If parliament has taken control of the agenda, is it possible for them to first pass a change to the FTPA then a VONC?
I did wonder about this last month. It only takes a simple majority to revoke the FTPA so itbis easier to do that than actually get an election passed. .
I'd supposed the issue was who could propose that change to the FTPA. Wouldn't it be for the Govt. to propose such changes? How does the Opposition bring it about?
With a minority Government, the House of Commons can take back responsibility for its own business, and then someone tables a Bill repealing the FTPA.
Boris has put the Queen in an impossible position, the one thing you are not supposed to do.
Regardless of what side of the Brexit argument your on, that surely is a mistake. Possibly a career ending mistake.
Must say I find this rather moot. She is paid, put up in great luxury, honoured and respected around the world. All because, as Head of State, this is her job. To decide precisely these things.
The key comments so far seem to me to be the anti-Brexit but anti-Corbyn rebels (not least Grieve) who are starting to switch to backing a VONC instead of pursuing new legislation. If that gathers steam then Johnson could be out by the end of next week, irrespective of what happens then.
I think Boris has announced this move now because he wants the remain actors in parliament to move against him before the actual point of no return for Brexit. I'd discounted a GE in October as a possibility yesterday, I think it is back on potentially now.
The key comments so far seem to me to be the anti-Brexit but anti-Corbyn rebels (not least Grieve) who are starting to switch to backing a VONC instead of pursuing new legislation. If that gathers steam then Johnson could be out by the end of next week, irrespective of what happens then.
But this isn’t true. I’ve just been reading the FTPA (how tragic is that. In the Greek sunshine)
Boris does not have to resign. It’s just a convention. He can sit tight and call an election for a date after Brexit Halloween.
Not if he is replaced by a GONU, or the FTPA is subsequently amended
I don’t think that’s true if he just sits in number 10, promising to call a vote. After Brexit.
Wild prediction: the VONC will succeed, Boris will fall, there will be an A50 extension under a caretaker government, probably Corbyn. At the ensuing GE Boris will win, but he will be promising... what?
There my clairvoyant skills expire.
With a VONC, Boris will call a new election and remain as Prime Minister. So no extension and No Deal.
Boris doesn't call a new election - he can't do that under the FTPA.
A new election is called by the VONC, with a 14 day waiting period, unless a VOC happens. Boris not resigning and not recommending a successor means there is no alternative government to get a VOC.
Wild prediction: the VONC will succeed, Boris will fall, there will be an A50 extension under a caretaker government, probably Corbyn. At the ensuing GE Boris will win, but he will be promising... what?
There my clairvoyant skills expire.
With a VONC, Boris will call a new election and remain as Prime Minister. So no extension and No Deal.
Boris doesn't call a new election - he can't do that under the FTPA.
A new election is called by the VONC, with a 14 day waiting period, unless a VOC happens. Boris not resigning and not recommending a successor means there is no alternative government to get a VOC.
That would clearly be something the courts could prevent. Quite apart from it going completely against the schema of the legislation, if that were permissible a Prime Minister would not need to resign after losing a general election and could instead force endless elections, clinging to office.
Boris has put the Queen in an impossible position, the one thing you are not supposed to do.
Regardless of what side of the Brexit argument your on, that surely is a mistake. Possibly a career ending mistake.
Yes, I get a lot of "the Liberal Democrats are neither Liberal nor Democratic" from braying Tories, but any idea that they are "conservative" is laughable. They are playing with fire.
Personally I do not forgive the crap that has been served up to us over the past four years, we have gone from "easiest deal in history" to "only a "no deal" is the "will of the people"" . The insults from Leavers: from "Remoaners", "Saboteurs", to "citizens of nowhere", at no stage have the hard leavers ever tried to offer a compromise.
I think a lot of reasonable people have finally had their patience exhausted. Nye Bevan once protested that he had not said that Tories were "vermin", when he had actually said they were "lower than vermin"... I think the majority view here could well be "F*** you Tories, this is where you get off".
Certainly, this attempted coup deserves severe punishment.
You earlier said that Boris was right to prorogue parliament as it had thwarted the will of the people over Brexit. Boris said in his interview that it was nothing to do with Brexit, it was to push forward his domestic agenda.
Which of you is right?
Both.
Parliament would be prorogued until after an EU council meeting that may have agreed a technical solution for the Irish border and an amended Withdrawal Agreement, then a Queens speech for Boris' domestic agenda and no time to stop No Deal by October 31st if No amended Deal agreed
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Those MPs were elected by the people in 2017. If Boris doesn't like it he should call an election.
They were elected on the promise of respecting the referendum result
The majority of the votes cast went to parties that rejected a No Deal Brexit.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
The key comments so far seem to me to be the anti-Brexit but anti-Corbyn rebels (not least Grieve) who are starting to switch to backing a VONC instead of pursuing new legislation. If that gathers steam then Johnson could be out by the end of next week, irrespective of what happens then.
Which may have been his plan, risky though it is. This does look like a pushback at the plan announced yesterday.
Johnson risks paying a high political price for this without receiving any political benefit because even this kind of gesture doesn't change the substance.
Oh it does, provided he delivers Brexit Boris almost certainly wins the next general election, if he does not he won't
But I thought he was delivering Brexit anyway, so what does a 5 week prorogation change?
Wild prediction: the VONC will succeed, Boris will fall, there will be an A50 extension under a caretaker government, probably Corbyn. At the ensuing GE Boris will win, but he will be promising... what?
Johnson risks paying a high political price for this without receiving any political benefit because even this kind of gesture doesn't change the substance.
Oh it does, provided he delivers Brexit Boris almost certainly wins the next general election, if he does not he won't
Hello @HYUFD. You are becoming something of the resident seer, having predicted it right since May fell. You were banging on about prorogation last night, to much scepticism. So, O Wise One. What happens next?
Johnson risks paying a high political price for this without receiving any political benefit because even this kind of gesture doesn't change the substance.
Oh it does, provided he delivers Brexit Boris almost certainly wins the next general election, if he does not he won't
But I thought he was delivering Brexit anyway, so what does a 5 week prorogation change?
It stops Parliament trying to force another extension beyond October 31st
Johnson risks paying a high political price for this without receiving any political benefit because even this kind of gesture doesn't change the substance.
Oh it does, provided he delivers Brexit Boris almost certainly wins the next general election, if he does not he won't
HYUFD
I wrote earlier to say I owed you an apology for doubting your prediction yesterday that Boris would prorogue parliament. You are right and I was wrong and well done on being so correct on this one
For all that I disagree with Boris doing this, Major is the last person who should be criticising him since he used the same tactic to avoid nothing more than personal and party embarrassment.
How long did he do it for? Was there a legal challenge back then?
6 weeks and No
That said it is still the wrong thing for Boris to do. I am just pointing out Major's hypocrisy
You earlier said that Boris was right to prorogue parliament as it had thwarted the will of the people over Brexit. Boris said in his interview that it was nothing to do with Brexit, it was to push forward his domestic agenda.
Which of you is right?
Both.
Parliament would be prorogued until after an EU council meeting that may have agreed a technical solution for the Irish border and an amended Withdrawal Agreement, then a Queens speech for Boris' domestic agenda and no time to stop No Deal by October 31st if No amended Deal agreed
You can't both be because that's not what Boris said. Boris said it was nothing to do with Brexit. You said it was precisely because of Brexit. One of you is a lying twat and you know what, @HYUFD, as one of your big fans on here I can tell you that I don't think it's you.
Looking at the petition map is quite interesting... the Remain redoubts of Oxford, Cambridge, Brighton, and er... Truro and Ceredigion seem to be leading the charge.
Boris has put the Queen in an impossible position, the one thing you are not supposed to do.
Regardless of what side of the Brexit argument your on, that surely is a mistake. Possibly a career ending mistake.
Must say I find this rather moot. She is paid, put up in great luxury, honoured and respected around the world. All because, as Head of State, this is her job. To decide precisely these things.
But our system is an odd one, it is not precisely her job to decide these things even if the rules technically say that is the job. It's her job to decide so long as she never actually has to decide.
It is a period of civil war. REMAINER spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil TORY EMPIRE.
During the battle, Remainer spies managed to steal secret plans to the Tories' ultimate weapon, the PROROGATION, an armoured space station with enough power to destroy an entire parliamentary session!
Pursued by the Tories’ sinister agents, Princess AnnaHeidi Jo races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom of movement to the CONTINENT…
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Johnson risks paying a high political price for this without receiving any political benefit because even this kind of gesture doesn't change the substance.
Oh it does, provided he delivers Brexit Boris almost certainly wins the next general election, if he does not he won't
HYUFD
I wrote earlier to say I owed you an apology for doubting your prediction yesterday that Boris would prorogue parliament. You are right and I was wrong and well done on being so correct on this one
For all that I disagree with Boris doing this, Major is the last person who should be criticising him since he used the same tactic to avoid nothing more than personal and party embarrassment.
I think Sir John Major is a bit older and wiser now.
Johnson risks paying a high political price for this without receiving any political benefit because even this kind of gesture doesn't change the substance.
Oh it does, provided he delivers Brexit Boris almost certainly wins the next general election, if he does not he won't
But I thought he was delivering Brexit anyway, so what does a 5 week prorogation change?
It stops Parliament trying to force another extension beyond October 31st
Johnson risks paying a high political price for this without receiving any political benefit because even this kind of gesture doesn't change the substance.
There seems to be some doublethink from leavers like Hannan or Zac Goldsmith defending the prorogation on grounds that it is perfectly normal and bog standard. Is the prorogation designed to go over the head of parliament, in which case it is a constitutional crisis, or is it just a standard procedure in which case why make it 5 weeks? And if Parliament is supposedly not listening to the "people" (the people being no deal cultists, because we even have leave voters on here who do not support no deal) why not simply say he wants an election, why go through this skullduggery of suspending parliament first?
Johnson risks paying a high political price for this without receiving any political benefit because even this kind of gesture doesn't change the substance.
Oh it does, provided he delivers Brexit Boris almost certainly wins the next general election, if he does not he won't
HYUFD
I wrote earlier to say I owed you an apology for doubting your prediction yesterday that Boris would prorogue parliament. You are right and I was wrong and well done on being so correct on this one
Looking at the petition map is quite interesting... the Remain redoubts of Oxford, Cambridge, Brighton, and er... Truro and Ceredigion seem to be leading the charge.
Truro and Ceredigion both voted Remain at the referendum.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Those MPs were elected by the people in 2017. If Boris doesn't like it he should call an election.
They were elected on the promise of respecting the referendum result
The majority of the votes cast went to parties that rejected a No Deal Brexit.
There was no need for no deal, but it has come to this because MPs elected on a promise to enact the referendum result voted against the PMs deal
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
The key comments so far seem to me to be the anti-Brexit but anti-Corbyn rebels (not least Grieve) who are starting to switch to backing a VONC instead of pursuing new legislation. If that gathers steam then Johnson could be out by the end of next week, irrespective of what happens then.
But this isn’t true. I’ve just been reading the FTPA (how tragic is that. In the Greek sunshine)
Boris does not have to resign, immediately, after a VONC. It’s just a convention. He can sit tight and call an election for a date after Brexit Halloween.
Reading the FTPA won't help you there, because that particular piece of legislation is about what you have to do to dissolve parliament and call and election, not about how a Prime Minister who's lost the confidence of the House is removed and a new one selected.
That said, it's true that Boris doesn't have to resign, provided the Commons don't look like they could get behind anyone else.
Johnson risks paying a high political price for this without receiving any political benefit because even this kind of gesture doesn't change the substance.
Oh it does, provided he delivers Brexit Boris almost certainly wins the next general election, if he does not he won't
Hello @HYUFD. You are becoming something of the resident seer, having predicted it right since May fell. You were banging on about prorogation last night, to much scepticism. So, O Wise One. What happens next?
General election in November most likely, with the EU granting a short extension until general election day, voters can then choose No Deal with Boris or most likely no Brexit with Corbyn the LDs and SNP (with a small chance the EU agrees a technical alternative to the backstop and an amended Withdrawal Agreement passes the Commons by October 31st)
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Those MPs were elected by the people in 2017. If Boris doesn't like it he should call an election.
They were elected on the promise of respecting the referendum result
The majority of the votes cast went to parties that rejected a No Deal Brexit.
There was no need for no deal, but it has come to this because MPs elected on a promise to enact the referendum result voted against the PMs deal
They did not promise to enact the referendum result by an arbitrary deadline.
Opposition MPs really need to start referring to him by his second name of "Johnson". "Boris" conjures up an image of bumbling buffoonery... that's probably more on your side than Corbyn. Johnson doesn't - its a more statesmanlike title that creates an apparent contradiction with the unstatesmanlike action (Progroguing) that you're trying to get the message over about.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Those MPs were elected by the people in 2017. If Boris doesn't like it he should call an election.
They were elected on the promise of respecting the referendum result
The majority of the votes cast went to parties that rejected a No Deal Brexit.
There was no need for no deal, but it has come to this because MPs elected on a promise to enact the referendum result voted against the PMs deal
So what? That does not make No Deal the only option.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
How did people who like to boast to strangers of their wealth whilst simultaneously playing victim tend to vote?
If Boris only cared about Boris he wouldn't be risking his PM'ship like this. He'd be doing a Theresa May and kicking the can as far down the road as he could.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Those MPs were elected by the people in 2017. If Boris doesn't like it he should call an election.
They were elected on the promise of respecting the referendum result
The majority of the votes cast went to parties that rejected a No Deal Brexit.
There was no need for no deal, but it has come to this because MPs elected on a promise to enact the referendum result voted against the PMs deal
So what? That does not make No Deal the only option.
Boris has put the Queen in an impossible position, the one thing you are not supposed to do.
Regardless of what side of the Brexit argument your on, that surely is a mistake. Possibly a career ending mistake.
Must say I find this rather moot. She is paid, put up in great luxury, honoured and respected around the world. All because, as Head of State, this is her job. To decide precisely these things.
But our system is an odd one, it is not precisely her job to decide these things even if the rules technically say that is the job. It's her job to decide so long as she never actually has to decide.
One thing is clear from all this. Our system is a total shambles.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Johnson risks paying a high political price for this without receiving any political benefit because even this kind of gesture doesn't change the substance.
Oh it does, provided he delivers Brexit Boris almost certainly wins the next general election, if he does not he won't
Hello @HYUFD. You are becoming something of the resident seer, having predicted it right since May fell. You were banging on about prorogation last night, to much scepticism. So, O Wise One. What happens next?
General election in November most likely, with the EU granting a short extension until general election day, voters can then choose No Deal with Boris or most likely no Brexit with Corbyn the LDs and SNP (with a small chance the EU agrees a technical alternative to the backstop and an amended Withdrawal Agreement passes the Commons by October 31st)
Eh? You are predicting a Conservative defeat as your central case?
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Those MPs were elected by the people in 2017. If Boris doesn't like it he should call an election.
They were elected on the promise of respecting the referendum result
The majority of the votes cast went to parties that rejected a No Deal Brexit.
There was no need for no deal, but it has come to this because MPs elected on a promise to enact the referendum result voted against the PMs deal
So what? That does not make No Deal the only option.
All that’s left
No. That's all that is left by some arbitrary deadline.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
What about your favourite wordcloud??
Of course it was frustration with the effects of mass immigration, that’s what I described. You like to act like it was down to a hatred of foreigners, which is something completely different.
Opposition MPs really need to start referring to him by his second name of "Johnson". "Boris" conjures up an image of bumbling buffoonery... that's probably more on your side than Corbyn. Johnson doesn't - its a more statesmanlike title that creates an apparent contradiction with the unstatesmanlike action (Progroguing) that you're trying to get the message over about.
I've seen this theory before and I dont buy it. I think obsessing about if he is called Boris or Johnson or BoJo the fantabulous homunculus is totally irrelevant to how he is perceived and how people react.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
How did people who like to boast to strangers of their wealth whilst simultaneously playing victim tend to vote?
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
How did people who like to boast to strangers of their wealth whilst simultaneously playing victim tend to vote?
Fairly evenly split, but on average, leave, I suspect.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Those MPs were elected by the people in 2017. If Boris doesn't like it he should call an election.
They were elected on the promise of respecting the referendum result
The majority of the votes cast went to parties that rejected a No Deal Brexit.
There was no need for no deal, but it has come to this because MPs elected on a promise to enact the referendum result voted against the PMs deal
So what? That does not make No Deal the only option.
All that’s left
No. That's all that is left by some arbitrary deadline.
The vote to leave was over three years ago. It suits remainers to filibuster forever, that’s why we need a deadline. We’ve already missed a couple, or was it one?
Look, so long as no one pushes a new book of common prayer on the country it will be fine.
They've done that already. It's called Common Worship. I'm not a great fan tbh (although I liked the previous effort, the Alternative Service Book) - some of the new language strikes me as trite.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Those MPs were elected by the people in 2017. If Boris doesn't like it he should call an election.
They were elected on the promise of respecting the referendum result
The majority of the votes cast went to parties that rejected a No Deal Brexit.
There was no need for no deal, but it has come to this because MPs elected on a promise to enact the referendum result voted against the PMs deal
So what? That does not make No Deal the only option.
All that’s left
No. That's all that is left by some arbitrary deadline.
The vote to leave was over three years ago. It suits remainers to filibuster forever, that’s why we need a deadline. We’ve already missed a couple, or was it one?
The key comments so far seem to me to be the anti-Brexit but anti-Corbyn rebels (not least Grieve) who are starting to switch to backing a VONC instead of pursuing new legislation. If that gathers steam then Johnson could be out by the end of next week, irrespective of what happens then.
But this isn’t true. I’ve just been reading the FTPA (how tragic is that. In the Greek sunshine)
Boris does not have to resign, immediately, after a VONC. It’s just a convention. He can sit tight and call an election for a date after Brexit Halloween.
Reading the FTPA won't help you there, because that particular piece of legislation is about what you have to do to dissolve parliament and call and election, not about how a Prime Minister who's lost the confidence of the House is removed and a new one selected.
That said, it's true that Boris doesn't have to resign, provided the Commons don't look like they could get behind anyone else.
It would be good if we could get a Blairite or a Lib Dem as alternative PM. Their added credibility as PM would be a big asset in defeating the Corbynites.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
How did people who like to boast to strangers of their wealth whilst simultaneously playing victim tend to vote?
No idea, but I do know how self-pitying xenophobes and racists did.
Johnson risks paying a high political price for this without receiving any political benefit because even this kind of gesture doesn't change the substance.
Oh it does, provided he delivers Brexit Boris almost certainly wins the next general election, if he does not he won't
Hello @HYUFD. You are becoming something of the resident seer, having predicted it right since May fell. You were banging on about prorogation last night, to much scepticism. So, O Wise One. What happens next?
General election in November most likely, with the EU granting a short extension until general election day, voters can then choose No Deal with Boris or most likely no Brexit with Corbyn the LDs and SNP (with a small chance the EU agrees a technical alternative to the backstop and an amended Withdrawal Agreement passes the Commons by October 31st)
Boris surely can't ask for an extension. Under any circumstances.
I'm with @Stark_Dawning on this. He is trying to scare the bejeezus out of people to pass a deal between the EU council meeting and Oct 31st. "A short extension" is hardly "do or die" and he would rightly be pilloried for it.
By you primarily of course although we would also curse Boris because that would mean we would have to trawl through PB to find all the posts of yours where you said we would leave by Oct 31st.
Opposition MPs really need to start referring to him by his second name of "Johnson". "Boris" conjures up an image of bumbling buffoonery... that's probably more on your side than Corbyn. Johnson doesn't - its a more statesmanlike title that creates an apparent contradiction with the unstatesmanlike action (Progroguing) that you're trying to get the message over about.
I've seen this theory before and I dont buy it. I think obsessing about if he is called Boris or Johnson or BoJo the fantabulous homunculus is totally irrelevant to how he is perceived and how people react.
On the other hand, ‘the arse Johnson’ ought to see more usage.
Wild prediction: the VONC will succeed, Boris will fall, there will be an A50 extension under a caretaker government, probably Corbyn. At the ensuing GE Boris will win, but he will be promising... what?
There my clairvoyant skills expire.
With a VONC, Boris will call a new election and remain as Prime Minister. So no extension and No Deal.
Opposition MPs really need to start referring to him by his second name of "Johnson". "Boris" conjures up an image of bumbling buffoonery... that's probably more on your side than Corbyn. Johnson doesn't - its a more statesmanlike title that creates an apparent contradiction with the unstatesmanlike action (Progroguing) that you're trying to get the message over about.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
How did people who like to boast to strangers of their wealth whilst simultaneously playing victim tend to vote?
No idea, but I do know how self-pitying xenophobes and racists did.
Wild prediction: the VONC will succeed, Boris will fall, there will be an A50 extension under a caretaker government, probably Corbyn. At the ensuing GE Boris will win, but he will be promising... what?
There my clairvoyant skills expire.
With a VONC, Boris will call a new election and remain as Prime Minister. So no extension and No Deal.
He cant
If no one else can command confidence I think the convention is he stays as PM.
Johnson risks paying a high political price for this without receiving any political benefit because even this kind of gesture doesn't change the substance.
Oh it does, provided he delivers Brexit Boris almost certainly wins the next general election, if he does not he won't
Hello @HYUFD. You are becoming something of the resident seer, having predicted it right since May fell. You were banging on about prorogation last night, to much scepticism. So, O Wise One. What happens next?
General election in November most likely, with the EU granting a short extension until general election day, voters can then choose No Deal with Boris or most likely no Brexit with Corbyn the LDs and SNP (with a small chance the EU agrees a technical alternative to the backstop and an amended Withdrawal Agreement passes the Commons by October 31st)
Boris surely can't ask for an extension. Under any circumstances.
I'm with @Stark_Dawning on this. He is trying to scare the bejeezus out of people to pass a deal between the EU council meeting and Oct 31st. "A short extension" is hardly "do or die" and he would rightly be pilloried for it.
By you primarily of course although we would also curse Boris because that would mean we would have to trawl through PB to find all the posts of yours where you said we would leave by Oct 31st.
Boris of course ideally wants the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop to pass the Commons by October 31st with EU agreement.
Otherwise he will go to No Deal but the Commons likely VONCs him then and forces a general election and asks the EU for an extension until polling day, Boris will not ask for any extension but have to accept it until polling day if the Commons votes for it but he would still campaign for No Deal on that scenario if he wins the election
Imagine you're the barrister in front of an eminent judge with limited patience. Your opposite number is alleging that you're doing this to frustrate democracy. The judge peers over his varifocals and says:
And says...
'Get on with implementing the referendum result.'
The lack of self-awareness of remainers is frankly astounding.
The lack of constitutional awareness is frankly astounding.
1. Parliament is sovereign. Now that is, whilst still in the EU. 2. No parliament can bind the hands of a successor parliament 3. 2015 parliament enacts a referendum. In our constitution power resides in the Crown in Parliament. Referenda are legally non-binding, may be considered to be politically by choice but in any case see point 2 4. 2017 parliament choses to try and enact the 2016 referendum. Because the election delivered a hung parliament it chooses not to authorise acceptance of the deal, and votes to not allow leaving without a deal 5. "Will of the people" is what was delivered in 2017 at the election. That supercedes all previous votes which is why a defeated government can't refuse to go, pointing to their win at a prior election
Its very very simple. If you want MPs to make a different political choice over Brexit, then elect new ones. The current parliament is legally and constitutionally sovereign to refuse to implement the actions of a previous parliament. That is very explicitly the parliamentary sovereignty that Brexiteers claim they voted for.
So if they didn't vote for sovereignty. And they didn't vote to be better off (because "I'd rather eat grass") then that only leaves racism. They voted to leave to chuck anyone out they don't like. CF Priti "Hang 'Em" Patel's pronouncements on free movement the minute we leave
Parliamentary sovereignty is over legislation. Parliament makes the law, it doesn't govern, that is the prerogative of HMG while the courts uphold legislation. The problem is that MPs have not made a political choice over Brexit, instead they have rejected every choice that has been presented to them. Even now, there is no majority in parliament for anything except for prolonging the agony by kicking the can even further down the road. The Government is offering Parliament an opportunity to make a decision. It can accept any withdrawal agreement that Boris brings back, it can accept No Deal, it can force a General Election or pass new legislation that overrides the current legal position that we leave on 31 October. The EU gave us an extension to sort this out, the Government is at least trying to do this, all we get from the Opposition is outrage.
It would be good if we could get a Blairite or a Lib Dem as alternative PM. Their added credibility as PM would be a big asset in defeating the Corbynites.
I agree. Unfortunately now you've gone and blurted it out the Labour left will be onto us, and Jeremy Corbyn will no longer fall for our otherwise brilliant plan.
A Tory is also bad, for tribal backbench Labour reasons.
The answer to the riddle is Sylvia Hermon, who is 200/1 with Shadsy.
Wild prediction: the VONC will succeed, Boris will fall, there will be an A50 extension under a caretaker government, probably Corbyn. At the ensuing GE Boris will win, but he will be promising... what?
There my clairvoyant skills expire.
With a VONC, Boris will call a new election and remain as Prime Minister. So no extension and No Deal.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
The idea that the Tory government didn't listen to retired people across Shire England is a keeper!
Comments
Boris does not have to resign, immediately, after a VONC. It’s just a convention. He can sit tight and call an election for a date after Brexit Halloween.
All because, as Head of State, this is her job. To decide precisely these things.
Personally I do not forgive the crap that has been served up to us over the past four years, we have gone from "easiest deal in history" to "only a "no deal" is the "will of the people"" . The insults from Leavers: from "Remoaners", "Saboteurs", to "citizens of nowhere", at no stage have the hard leavers ever tried to offer a compromise.
I think a lot of reasonable people have finally had their patience exhausted. Nye Bevan once protested that he had not said that Tories were "vermin", when he had actually said they were "lower than vermin"... I think the majority view here could well be "F*** you Tories, this is where you get off".
Certainly, this attempted coup deserves severe punishment.
But they were so set against, it would take heroic effort to self justify.
Parliament would be prorogued until after an EU council meeting that may have agreed a technical solution for the Irish border and an amended Withdrawal Agreement, then a Queens speech for Boris' domestic agenda and no time to stop No Deal by October 31st if No amended Deal agreed
So, O Wise One. What happens next?
https://twitter.com/JackWDart/status/1166384551251386368
The idea that No Deal finishes this once and for all is for the birds.
I wrote earlier to say I owed you an apology for doubting your prediction yesterday that Boris would prorogue parliament. You are right and I was wrong and well done on being so correct on this one
That said it is still the wrong thing for Boris to do. I am just pointing out Major's hypocrisy
During the battle, Remainer spies managed to steal secret plans to the Tories' ultimate weapon, the PROROGATION, an armoured space station with enough power to destroy an entire parliamentary session!
Pursued by the Tories’ sinister agents, Princess Anna Heidi Jo races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom of movement to the CONTINENT…
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
And the bastards are in the ascendent.
Otherwise I think it's the 24th (5 weeks after 14 days trying to create a government)
https://twitter.com/davidherdson/status/1166642225184329728?s=21
https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1166671453086863362?s=20
That said, it's true that Boris doesn't have to resign, provided the Commons don't look like they could get behind anyone else.
Keep to Cooper Letwin next week.
Request a VoNC on September 11th for the first day Parliament returns - get things lined up.
Let Boris stew over that time.
Maybe they'll allow him to go home at night and return in the day?
https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1166685070490554369
I'm with @Stark_Dawning on this. He is trying to scare the bejeezus out of people to pass a deal between the EU council meeting and Oct 31st. "A short extension" is hardly "do or die" and he would rightly be pilloried for it.
By you primarily of course although we would also curse Boris because that would mean we would have to trawl through PB to find all the posts of yours where you said we would leave by Oct 31st.
Otherwise he will go to No Deal but the Commons likely VONCs him then and forces a general election and asks the EU for an extension until polling day, Boris will not ask for any extension but have to accept it until polling day if the Commons votes for it but he would still campaign for No Deal on that scenario if he wins the election
https://twitter.com/MichelBarnier/status/1166694674251309056
A Tory is also bad, for tribal backbench Labour reasons.
The answer to the riddle is Sylvia Hermon, who is 200/1 with Shadsy.