Getting him and the Spartans on board was never viable. The DUP and or 15 or so labour were needed. Doesnt Look good unless the EU cave. I wont hold my breath.
Johnson risks paying a high political price for this without receiving any political benefit because even this kind of gesture doesn't change the substance.
Oh it does, provided he delivers Brexit Boris almost certainly wins the next general election, if he does not he won't
Hello @HYUFD. You are becoming something of the resident seer, having predicted it right since May fell. You were banging on about prorogation last night, to much scepticism. So, O Wise One. What happens next?
General election in November most likely, with the EU granting a short extension until general election day, voters can then choose No Deal with Boris or most likely no Brexit with Corbyn the LDs and SNP (with a small chance the EU agrees a technical alternative to the backstop and an amended Withdrawal Agreement passes the Commons by October 31st)
Boris surely can't ask for an extension. Under any circumstances.
I'm with @Stark_Dawning on this. He is trying to scare the bejeezus out of people to pass a deal between the EU council meeting and Oct 31st. "A short extension" is hardly "do or die" and he would rightly be pilloried for it.
By you primarily of course although we would also curse Boris because that would mean we would have to trawl through PB to find all the posts of yours where you said we would leave by Oct 31st.
Boris of course ideally wants the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop to pass the Commons by October 31st with EU agreement.
Otherwise he will go to No Deal but the Commons likely VONCs him then and forces a general election and asks the EU for an extension until polling day, Boris will not ask for any extension but have to accept it until polling day if the Commons votes for it but he would still campaign for No Deal on that scenario if he wins the election
Problem with that is, Redwood just joined the growing crowd who won't accept the non backstop WA. And Boris just greatly reduced the largely mythical opposition votes for it.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
The idea that the Tory government didn't listen to retired people across Shire England is a keeper!
Xenophobes will xenophobe and will always deny they are such.
What did you actually expect him to do? Rend his garments, gnash his teeth, make burnt offerings to the Lord Boris, petitioning Bojo with prayer to spare us His hard Brexit?
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Those MPs were elected by the people in 2017. If Boris doesn't like it he should call an election.
They were elected on the promise of respecting the referendum result
The majority of the votes cast went to parties that rejected a No Deal Brexit.
There was no need for no deal, but it has come to this because MPs elected on a promise to enact the referendum result voted against the PMs deal
They did not promise to enact the referendum result by an arbitrary deadline.
That would indeed be unwise. But an answer such as, "well after such a very long session and a substantial change of cabinet we want a full Queens Speech with a a panoply of bills covering a wide range of subjects and this takes time to organise" is quite difficult to disprove.
Edit, and Lord Doherty doesn't wear varifocals. You'd be right about the limited patience though.
Presumably the assessment of reasons would be on a balance of probabilities? On the one hand, a lot of weight would be given to the government's assertions, simply by being the government. On the other hand, it does all look inexplicable in terms of immediate timing. Your explanation does not explain why in September/October rather than November/December.
Balance of probabilities determines whether someone has a prima facie case or not but for interdict the key question is normally where the balance of harm lies in the event of the order being granted or not. In this case I have no doubt that the petitioners will be arguing that there would be irredeemable harm if the order is not granted and some inconvenience to the government if it is not. I think it would be quite hard to argue that the balance of harm did not favour the petitioners.
Whether they meet the prima facie case test is more problematic but in this particular process they might argue that they have already got over that hurdle because they have already passed the sift which is designed to weed out unmeritorious applications and they have been allowed a full hearing.
Boris might fail in what he's doing. He might yet make (even more of) a complete tit of himself. But I like that he's bringing the whole thing to showdown.
Most MPs are Remainers and many of them have been tacitly involved in spiking Brexit, hoping no conclusion will drift on interminably. Many Brexit MPs have been holding on for unicorns. They are both as bad as one another. One side won't admit their real intention to Remain, the other side won't admit that they were wrong about the sunlit uplands.
Ultimately, there have only ever been four choices:
1. Leave with a Deal 2. Leave with No Deal 3. Hold a 2nd Referendum 4. Ignore the result and Remain
1 has proven to be impossible given current parliamentary arithmetic (caused by` May and used cunningly by Remainers), because there is no deal the EU will offer that can get through parliament. 4 would probably cause a civil war, so few countenance it. Which leaves options 2 and 3.
I'd support 2 and 3 to bring an end to this whole sorry mess. MPs can only really support one or the other. But most have been too gutless to stick their neck out for either, and have weaselly allowed the thing to drift endlessly, probably so they can cling on to their seats and privileges until a GE2022.
Well fuck that, Boris is at least bringing it to a crunch and forcing MPs to make a choice.
It might fail but good on him.
ps -it's why I have admiration rather than disdain for the likes of Grieve. At least he has publicly stuck his neck out for a policy he knows half the population will hate him for.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
The idea that the Tory government didn't listen to retired people across Shire England is a keeper!
Xenophobes will xenophobe and will always deny they are such.
For all that I disagree with Boris doing this, Major is the last person who should be criticising him since he used the same tactic to avoid nothing more than personal and party embarrassment.
I think Sir John Major is a bit older and wiser now.
And the bastards are in the ascendent.
And they're no longer in the tent pissing out, but atop the Elizabeth Tower pissing down on Parliament and the whole country.
Corbyn was absolutely right to write to the Queen. Today is a gift for him. Johnson has given him the best chance he will ever have of reviving the 2017 Labour voting coalition, with some added LibDem gains in the south on top.
For all that I disagree with Boris doing this, Major is the last person who should be criticising him since he used the same tactic to avoid nothing more than personal and party embarrassment.
I think Sir John Major is a bit older and wiser now.
And the bastards are in the ascendent.
And they're no longer in the tent pissing out, but atop the Elizabeth Tower pissing down on Parliament and the whole country.
Where the government is very vulnerable on any legal challenge is the why question. Why is this prorogation unusually long? The only answer is one that reflects its own lack of control of Parliament. Should the courts assist the executive in avoiding Parliamentary scrutiny? It’s very hard to see why that should be a permissible reason for proroguing.
It's quite an arcane subject and I don't pretend to have studied it in detail but the traditional view used to be that the procedures of the Commons were matters for the Commons and no one else. I will no doubt learn tomorrow but I am struggling to see what the "wrong" that is being sought to be prevented is, at least in law.
My guess is that the Court will say, well if Parliament wants to prevent this they can do so next week. But I may be wrong. The courts have been more ready to intervene in recent times as in the Miller case (although that was about changes to our domestic law, not Parliamentary procedure).
How long would a prorogation have to be before the Courts would hold it to be unreasonable? Six months?
Honestly no idea. There is no precedent that I am aware of.
What did you actually expect him to do? Rend his garments, gnash his teeth, make burnt offerings to the Lord Boris, petitioning Bojo with prayer to spare us His hard Brexit?
The EU aren't going to do anything. If we are stupid enough to leave without a deal they will just ensure no-one else attempts to do it again..
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
The idea that the Tory government didn't listen to retired people across Shire England is a keeper!
Xenophobes will xenophobe and will always deny they are such.
Boris has put the Queen in an impossible position, the one thing you are not supposed to do.
Regardless of what side of the Brexit argument your on, that surely is a mistake. Possibly a career ending mistake.
Is it really an impossible position? It's quite simple, really.
HMQ will act on the advice of the Prime Minister. She always has to. If the House has lost confidence in the PM, then they have the means to tell HMQ, and to express their confidence in an alternative - who will then provide different advice to HMQ.
Vernon Bogdanor on the radio saying comparisons with "Charles I or James I" is nonsense..
Of course they are. I saw a graphic on the BBC News website showing just how many days Parliament would be sitting before Brexit even if it were prorogued.
Where the government is very vulnerable on any legal challenge is the why question. Why is this prorogation unusually long? The only answer is one that reflects its own lack of control of Parliament. Should the courts assist the executive in avoiding Parliamentary scrutiny? It’s very hard to see why that should be a permissible reason for proroguing.
Are they obliged under law to provide a reason? Genuine question.
Imagine you're the barrister in front of an eminent judge with limited patience. Your opposite number is alleging that you're doing this to frustrate democracy. The judge peers over his varifocals and says:
"So, Mr 4, why is your client taking such an unusually long period of time for prorogation at such a hectic period in British politics against a tight deadline?"
The response "I'm not at liberty to say" is not really going to cut it.
That would indeed be unwise. But an answer such as, "well after such a very long session and a substantial change of cabinet we want a full Queens Speech with a a panoply of bills covering a wide range of subjects and this takes time to organise" is quite difficult to disprove.
Edit, and Lord Doherty doesn't wear varifocals. You'd be right about the limited patience though.
Wouldn't the judge then say 'Answer the fucking question!', or words to that effect?
Johnson risks paying a high political price for this without receiving any political benefit because even this kind of gesture doesn't change the substance.
Oh it does, provided he delivers Brexit Boris almost certainly wins the next general election, if he does not he won't
Hello @HYUFD. You are becoming something of the resident seer, having predicted it right since May fell. You were banging on about prorogation last night, to much scepticism. So, O Wise One. What happens next?
General election in November most likely, with the EU granting a short extension until general election day, voters can then choose No Deal with Boris or most likely no Brexit with Corbyn the LDs and SNP (with a small chance the EU agrees a technical alternative to the backstop and an amended Withdrawal Agreement passes the Commons by October 31st)
Boris surely can't ask for an extension. Under any circumstances.
I'm with @Stark_Dawning on this. He is trying to scare the bejeezus out of people to pass a deal between the EU council meeting and Oct 31st. "A short extension" is hardly "do or die" and he would rightly be pilloried for it.
By you primarily of course although we would also curse Boris because that would mean we would have to trawl through PB to find all the posts of yours where you said we would leave by Oct 31st.
Boris of course ideally wants the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop to pass the Commons by October 31st with EU agreement.
Otherwise he will go to No Deal but the Commons likely VONCs him then and forces a general election and asks the EU for an extension until polling day, Boris will not ask for any extension but have to accept it until polling day if the Commons votes for it but he would still campaign for No Deal on that scenario if he wins the election
Any delay for whatever reason, as you have often noted, turbocharges TBP, gives Nigel Farage a rocket-propelled ascension into our political world ("don't trust them, etc, etc") then splits the leave vote, and paves the way for a Lab majority hung parliament.
I recall the notion of a possible prorogation was raised as soon as Boris became Prime Minister so it's hardly a bolt from the blue.
It's a tactic, whether it's part of a well-defined strategy or making it up as they go along is something we will discover in time.
The Conservative anti-No Deal squad are going to have to put their heads above the parapet if this is going to be blocked or changed with all the internal party risk that follows.
The two thoughts I have are first the EU negotiates with the UK Government NOT the Commons. Proroguing Parliament does not make any difference to Boris continuing to negotiate a revised WA but I continue to think the revisions he needs aren't going to be granted by the EU.
Second, who calls an election now? It seems Parliament needs to be in session in order for the FTPA to pass and Johnson seems some Opposition MPs to vote for a GE to get it over the line. He may rely on Corbyn's stupidity to allow that to happen but perhaps it may not and if the GE is blocked , it may be the VoNC will pass and an alternative administration which will prevent No Deal will command enough support in the Commons.
Is the plan therefore to have the election before 31/10 in which case the time in early September is all they have to get one called via the FTPA or is the plan to wait until the last minute and have the election in mid November with the 31/10 deadline cleared but with the attendant risk of the exit leading to problems which wouldn't reflect well on the Johnson Government?
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Those MPs were elected by the people in 2017. If Boris doesn't like it he should call an election.
They were elected on the promise of respecting the referendum result
The majority of the votes cast went to parties that rejected a No Deal Brexit.
There was no need for no deal, but it has come to this because MPs elected on a promise to enact the referendum result voted against the PMs deal
They did not promise to enact the referendum result by an arbitrary deadline.
The key comments so far seem to me to be the anti-Brexit but anti-Corbyn rebels (not least Grieve) who are starting to switch to backing a VONC instead of pursuing new legislation. If that gathers steam then Johnson could be out by the end of next week, irrespective of what happens then.
But this isn’t true. I’ve just been reading the FTPA (how tragic is that. In the Greek sunshine)
Boris does not have to resign. It’s just a convention. He can sit tight and call an election for a date after Brexit Halloween.
Not if he is replaced by a GONU, or the FTPA is subsequently amended
I don’t think that’s true if he just sits in number 10, promising to call a vote. After Brexit.
The term VOC in government means in any prospective government not the government. He can’t sit it out for 14 days if someone else demonstrates the have confidence.
For all that I disagree with Boris doing this, Major is the last person who should be criticising him since he used the same tactic to avoid nothing more than personal and party embarrassment.
I think Sir John Major is a bit older and wiser now.
And the bastards are in the ascendent.
Immaterial. He may be older but he is certainly not wiser. And he is still a hypocrite.
What did you actually expect him to do? Rend his garments, gnash his teeth, make burnt offerings to the Lord Boris, petitioning Bojo with prayer to spare us His hard Brexit?
About three times a week some Leave cretin reposts some regurgitated crap from the Express about how the EU is bowing down to Britain’s demands. Something direct from the horse’s mouth might correct this repeated misunderstanding.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
The idea that the Tory government didn't listen to retired people across Shire England is a keeper!
Xenophobes will xenophobe and will always deny they are such.
No doubt iSam has a clip of Enoch Powell explaining why it's not racist to want a revolution if the government allows too many foreigners into your presence.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
How did people who like to boast to strangers of their wealth whilst simultaneously playing victim tend to vote?
No idea, but I do know how self-pitying xenophobes and racists did.
Impressive how well your xenophobe and racist detector works.
It must be all those years in the Labour Party that got it so finely attuned.....
Ultimately, there have only ever been four choices:
1. Leave with a Deal 2. Leave with No Deal 3. Hold a 2nd Referendum 4. Ignore the result and Remain
1 has proven to be impossible given current parliamentary arithmetic (caused by` May and used cunningly by Remainers), because there is no deal the EU will offer that can get through parliament. 4 would probably cause a civil war, so few countenance it. Which leaves options 2 and 3.
I wouldn't entirely rule out 4. Obviously it's incredibly damaging to any PM who does it ….. but that doesn't matter for a temporary caretaker. Might such a person be tempted to kick the whole issue into the long grass, with a revoke and general election?
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
The idea that the Tory government didn't listen to retired people across Shire England is a keeper!
Xenophobes will xenophobe and will always deny they are such.
High numbers in Hornsea, Bristol West and Brighton Pavilion.
Low numbers in Hull, Wigan and Torfaen.
Who'd have thunk it.
Also quite low numbers in Northern Ireland.
I think if Sinn Fein (Or the SDLP if they'd won any) had their seats in parliament they'd have voted through the Withdrawal agreement actually. They'd have joined all the remain efforts too - but they'd have voted for the deal.
The key comments so far seem to me to be the anti-Brexit but anti-Corbyn rebels (not least Grieve) who are starting to switch to backing a VONC instead of pursuing new legislation. If that gathers steam then Johnson could be out by the end of next week, irrespective of what happens then.
But this isn’t true. I’ve just been reading the FTPA (how tragic is that. In the Greek sunshine)
Boris does not have to resign. It’s just a convention. He can sit tight and call an election for a date after Brexit Halloween.
Not if he is replaced by a GONU, or the FTPA is subsequently amended
I don’t think that’s true if he just sits in number 10, promising to call a vote. After Brexit.
The term VOC in government means in any prospective government not the government. He can’t sit it out for 14 days if someone else demonstrates the have confidence.
As I have pointed out repeatedly, but our more desperate Leavers refuse to consider, if Boris Johnson were capable of doing this before an election, he could do so after losing an election too and insisting on endless general elections rather than cede power.
The key comments so far seem to me to be the anti-Brexit but anti-Corbyn rebels (not least Grieve) who are starting to switch to backing a VONC instead of pursuing new legislation. If that gathers steam then Johnson could be out by the end of next week, irrespective of what happens then.
But this isn’t true. I’ve just been reading the FTPA (how tragic is that. In the Greek sunshine)
Boris does not have to resign. It’s just a convention. He can sit tight and call an election for a date after Brexit Halloween.
Not if he is replaced by a GONU, or the FTPA is subsequently amended
I don’t think that’s true if he just sits in number 10, promising to call a vote. After Brexit.
The term VOC in government means in any prospective government not the government. He can’t sit it out for 14 days if someone else demonstrates the have confidence.
Yep. The 14 days is just a backstop.... a very topical word there. If at any time prior to 14 days another MP can show they have the support of the House then the Queen is constititionally bound to appoint them PM.
Wild prediction: the VONC will succeed, Boris will fall, there will be an A50 extension under a caretaker government, probably Corbyn. At the ensuing GE Boris will win, but he will be promising... what?
There my clairvoyant skills expire.
With a VONC, Boris will call a new election and remain as Prime Minister. So no extension and No Deal.
He cant
If no one else can command confidence I think the convention is he stays as PM.
Correct but it’s wrong to say he can just sit it out if someone can command confidence
Johnson risks paying a high political price for this without receiving any political benefit because even this kind of gesture doesn't change the substance.
Oh it does, provided he delivers Brexit Boris almost certainly wins the next general election, if he does not he won't
Hello @HYUFD. You are becoming something of the resident seer, having predicted it right since May fell. You were banging on about prorogation last night, to much scepticism. So, O Wise One. What happens next?
General election in November most likely, with the EU granting a short extension until general election day, voters can then choose No Deal with Boris or most likely no Brexit with Corbyn the LDs and SNP (with a small chance the EU agrees a technical alternative to the backstop and an amended Withdrawal Agreement passes the Commons by October 31st)
Boris surely can't ask for an extension. Under any circumstances.
I'm with @Stark_Dawning on this. He is trying to scare the bejeezus out of people to pass a deal between the EU council meeting and Oct 31st. "A short extension" is hardly "do or die" and he would rightly be pilloried for it.
By you primarily of course although we would also curse Boris because that would mean we would have to trawl through PB to find all the posts of yours where you said we would leave by Oct 31st.
Boris of course ideally wants the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop to pass the Commons by October 31st with EU agreement.
Otherwise he will go to No Deal but the Commons likely VONCs him then and forces a general election and asks the EU for an extension until polling day, Boris will not ask for any extension but have to accept it until polling day if the Commons votes for it but he would still campaign for No Deal on that scenario if he wins the election
Then Mr Johnson ideally wants a unicorn. Nice in fairy tales, not so good for the haed of a government.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
The idea that the Tory government didn't listen to retired people across Shire England is a keeper!
Xenophobes will xenophobe and will always deny they are such.
The key comments so far seem to me to be the anti-Brexit but anti-Corbyn rebels (not least Grieve) who are starting to switch to backing a VONC instead of pursuing new legislation. If that gathers steam then Johnson could be out by the end of next week, irrespective of what happens then.
But this isn’t true. I’ve just been reading the FTPA (how tragic is that. In the Greek sunshine)
Boris does not have to resign. It’s just a convention. He can sit tight and call an election for a date after Brexit Halloween.
Not if he is replaced by a GONU, or the FTPA is subsequently amended
I don’t think that’s true if he just sits in number 10, promising to call a vote. After Brexit.
The term VOC in government means in any prospective government not the government. He can’t sit it out for 14 days if someone else demonstrates the have confidence.
Yep. The 14 days is just a backstop.... a very topical word there. If at any time prior to 14 days another MP can show they have the support of the House then the Queen is constititionally bound to appoint them PM.
I am not clear that is the case if Boris doesn't resign. He is her chief advisor and can just say "look, I am holding an election very shortly to sort this out and not recommending anyone else".
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
The idea that the Tory government didn't listen to retired people across Shire England is a keeper!
Xenophobes will xenophobe and will always deny they are such.
No doubt iSam has a clip of Enoch Powell explaining why it's not racist to want a revolution if the government allows too many foreigners into your presence.
The key comments so far seem to me to be the anti-Brexit but anti-Corbyn rebels (not least Grieve) who are starting to switch to backing a VONC instead of pursuing new legislation. If that gathers steam then Johnson could be out by the end of next week, irrespective of what happens then.
But this isn’t true. I’ve just been reading the FTPA (how tragic is that. In the Greek sunshine)
Boris does not have to resign. It’s just a convention. He can sit tight and call an election for a date after Brexit Halloween.
Not if he is replaced by a GONU, or the FTPA is subsequently amended
I don’t think that’s true if he just sits in number 10, promising to call a vote. After Brexit.
The term VOC in government means in any prospective government not the government. He can’t sit it out for 14 days if someone else demonstrates the have confidence.
As I have pointed out repeatedly, but our more desperate Leavers refuse to consider, if Boris Johnson were capable of doing this before an election, he could do so after losing an election too and insisting on endless general elections rather than cede power.
Corbyn could also... I think parliament would actually be stormed if that were to happen.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
The idea that the Tory government didn't listen to retired people across Shire England is a keeper!
Xenophobes will xenophobe and will always deny they are such.
The key comments so far seem to me to be the anti-Brexit but anti-Corbyn rebels (not least Grieve) who are starting to switch to backing a VONC instead of pursuing new legislation. If that gathers steam then Johnson could be out by the end of next week, irrespective of what happens then.
But this isn’t true. I’ve just been reading the FTPA (how tragic is that. In the Greek sunshine)
Boris does not have to resign. It’s just a convention. He can sit tight and call an election for a date after Brexit Halloween.
Not if he is replaced by a GONU, or the FTPA is subsequently amended
I don’t think that’s true if he just sits in number 10, promising to call a vote. After Brexit.
The term VOC in government means in any prospective government not the government. He can’t sit it out for 14 days if someone else demonstrates the have confidence.
If you’re right it’s probably Corbyn’s One and Only chance to be PM, however briefly. I expect he will fuck it up.
Wild prediction: the VONC will succeed, Boris will fall, there will be an A50 extension under a caretaker government, probably Corbyn. At the ensuing GE Boris will win, but he will be promising... what?
There my clairvoyant skills expire.
With a VONC, Boris will call a new election and remain as Prime Minister. So no extension and No Deal.
He cant
If no one else can command confidence I think the convention is he stays as PM.
Correct but it’s wrong to say he can just sit it out if someone can command confidence
Is it? The convention pre-FTPA meant a government with no confidence can resolve the matter with an election. The FTPA raises the threshold to have that election but doesn't say anything about the process for changing PMs in the lead up.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
The idea that the Tory government didn't listen to retired people across Shire England is a keeper!
Xenophobes will xenophobe and will always deny they are such.
The key comments so far seem to me to be the anti-Brexit but anti-Corbyn rebels (not least Grieve) who are starting to switch to backing a VONC instead of pursuing new legislation. If that gathers steam then Johnson could be out by the end of next week, irrespective of what happens then.
But this isn’t true. I’ve just been reading the FTPA (how tragic is that. In the Greek sunshine)
Boris does not have to resign. It’s just a convention. He can sit tight and call an election for a date after Brexit Halloween.
Not if he is replaced by a GONU, or the FTPA is subsequently amended
I don’t think that’s true if he just sits in number 10, promising to call a vote. After Brexit.
The term VOC in government means in any prospective government not the government. He can’t sit it out for 14 days if someone else demonstrates the have confidence.
As I have pointed out repeatedly, but our more desperate Leavers refuse to consider, if Boris Johnson were capable of doing this before an election, he could do so after losing an election too and insisting on endless general elections rather than cede power.
Corbyn could also... I think parliament would actually be stormed if that were to happen.
Since the legislation works in the same way in both cases, we can safely conclude that the courts will intervene as necessary to stop a rogue Prime Minister in either case.
I think, and this is probably wrong as Bercow/Grieve might be able to come up with somthing or other to stop Johnson (Who knows) but actually it is going to come down to MPs choosing between a "No Deal" Brexit and installing Corbyn.
As @AndyJS notes, this is about making an unpalatable choice.
The WA was an unpalatable choice, but better than these options. MPs should have taken it, as Paul Masterton noted both sides can not be right.
High numbers in Hornsea, Bristol West and Brighton Pavilion.
Low numbers in Hull, Wigan and Torfaen.
Who'd have thunk it.
Also quite low numbers in Northern Ireland.
I think if Sinn Fein (Or the SDLP if they'd won any) had their seats in parliament they'd have voted through the Withdrawal agreement actually. They'd have joined all the remain efforts too - but they'd have voted for the deal.
The key comments so far seem to me to be the anti-Brexit but anti-Corbyn rebels (not least Grieve) who are starting to switch to backing a VONC instead of pursuing new legislation. If that gathers steam then Johnson could be out by the end of next week, irrespective of what happens then.
But this isn’t true. I’ve just been reading the FTPA (how tragic is that. In the Greek sunshine)
Boris does not have to resign. It’s just a convention. He can sit tight and call an election for a date after Brexit Halloween.
Not if he is replaced by a GONU, or the FTPA is subsequently amended
I don’t think that’s true if he just sits in number 10, promising to call a vote. After Brexit.
The term VOC in government means in any prospective government not the government. He can’t sit it out for 14 days if someone else demonstrates the have confidence.
As I have pointed out repeatedly, but our more desperate Leavers refuse to consider, if Boris Johnson were capable of doing this before an election, he could do so after losing an election too and insisting on endless general elections rather than cede power.
But there is an established convention for HM picking the winner of the election.
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
The idea that the Tory government didn't listen to retired people across Shire England is a keeper!
Xenophobes will xenophobe and will always deny they are such.
Corbyn was absolutely right to write to the Queen. Today is a gift for him. Johnson has given him the best chance he will ever have of reviving the 2017 Labour voting coalition, with some added LibDem gains in the south on top.
You clearly have very little idea about how fed up with Brexit (and the self-entitled remain lobby) most of the country is.
The key comments so far seem to me to be the anti-Brexit but anti-Corbyn rebels (not least Grieve) who are starting to switch to backing a VONC instead of pursuing new legislation. If that gathers steam then Johnson could be out by the end of next week, irrespective of what happens then.
But this isn’t true. I’ve just been reading the FTPA (how tragic is that. In the Greek sunshine)
Boris does not have to resign. It’s just a convention. He can sit tight and call an election for a date after Brexit Halloween.
Not if he is replaced by a GONU, or the FTPA is subsequently amended
I don’t think that’s true if he just sits in number 10, promising to call a vote. After Brexit.
The term VOC in government means in any prospective government not the government. He can’t sit it out for 14 days if someone else demonstrates the have confidence.
As I have pointed out repeatedly, but our more desperate Leavers refuse to consider, if Boris Johnson were capable of doing this before an election, he could do so after losing an election too and insisting on endless general elections rather than cede power.
But there is an established convention for HM picking the winner of the election.
The Prime Minister’s appointment does not expire on an election. The two cases are identical.
In other words, your hopeful Leave idea is hogwash.
Wild prediction: the VONC will succeed, Boris will fall, there will be an A50 extension under a caretaker government, probably Corbyn. At the ensuing GE Boris will win, but he will be promising... what?
There my clairvoyant skills expire.
With a VONC, Boris will call a new election and remain as Prime Minister. So no extension and No Deal.
He cant
If no one else can command confidence I think the convention is he stays as PM.
Correct but it’s wrong to say he can just sit it out if someone can command confidence
Is it? The convention pre-FTPA meant a government with no confidence can resolve the matter with an election. The FTPA raises the threshold to have that election but doesn't say anything about the process for changing PMs in the lead up.
I refer you to my answers to Byronic the term confidence in government does not refer only to THE government but can refer to a government to be formed after an individual demonstrates the have confidence. Otherwise this part of the FTPA would be pointless.
Corbyn was absolutely right to write to the Queen. Today is a gift for him. Johnson has given him the best chance he will ever have of reviving the 2017 Labour voting coalition, with some added LibDem gains in the south on top.
Yes, if there's an election it's going to be much more about "Do you favour the Johnson coup and No Deal?" than "Are you worried about Corbyn?"
Well done to Boris. The behaviour of the MPs trying to suffocate the public into Remain because they lost the referendum meant something drastic was needed to explode the impasse. The refusal to listen to those left behind by those who do well out of the status quo was the entire reason Leave won. They never learn.
Good to see you posting again, Sam. And agree wholeheartedly. The fact that our society could be as heartless as to leave behind Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of our national disgraces.
How bored must I be?
Rubbish, man - it's the stuff of life. Plus we need someone on here who tells us the real reason why the UK voted for Brexit (foreigners) rather than the claptrap spouted by the petit bourgeoisie (sovereignty).
No it is futile and I’d say a hinderance to happiness.
The reason wasn’t foreigners, it was unsolicited changes to the living conditions and the labour market of the poorest in the UK imposed by our government plus their refusal to listen/vitriolic response to feedback
Which, of course, is why the older you were the more likely you were to vote for Brexit, regardless of where in the UK you lived or your financial circumstances.
The idea that the Tory government didn't listen to retired people across Shire England is a keeper!
Xenophobes will xenophobe and will always deny they are such.
It’s a bit unnerving that Pb.com - the best informed political forum in the UK - has no agreed idea of the laws and processes we will now follow, as we head into the worst constitutional crisis since the inception of the New Model Army.
If we don’t have a clue, who does?!
On that disquieting note I am going for a stroll in the Hellenic sun.
For all that I disagree with Boris doing this, Major is the last person who should be criticising him since he used the same tactic to avoid nothing more than personal and party embarrassment.
I think Sir John Major is a bit older and wiser now.
And the bastards are in the ascendent.
And they're no longer in the tent pissing out, but atop the Elizabeth Tower pissing down on Parliament and the whole country.
Still St Stephen's Tower IMO
And when I was 10 IMO Argentina did not win the 1978 FIFA World Cup. So what.
Corbyn was absolutely right to write to the Queen. Today is a gift for him. Johnson has given him the best chance he will ever have of reviving the 2017 Labour voting coalition, with some added LibDem gains in the south on top.
You clearly have very little idea about how fed up with Brexit (and the self-entitled remain lobby) most of the country is.
Being called "entitled" by a group whose leaders are mostly old Etonians may not be quite the killer blow that you think.
The old school tie Tories laid this particular crock of cack and now they are going to take what's coming to them.
Corbyn was absolutely right to write to the Queen. Today is a gift for him. Johnson has given him the best chance he will ever have of reviving the 2017 Labour voting coalition, with some added LibDem gains in the south on top.
You clearly have very little idea about how fed up with Brexit (and the self-entitled remain lobby) most of the country is.
It's the rat smell that will do for Boris Johnson on prorogation I feel, rather than prorogation itself, which no-one knows how to spell or what exactly it means.
I have a vague feeling it will turn out to be too smart-arsed and actually not necessary.
Is it? The convention pre-FTPA meant a government with no confidence can resolve the matter with an election. The FTPA raises the threshold to have that election but doesn't say anything about the process for changing PMs in the lead up.
They don't say anything about that in the FTPA because the existing process still applies, namely that if somebody else looks like they can get the confidence of the House they get appointed PM and get to test it.
Believe it or not the 14 day period isn't just there to give everyone a chance to chill.
Corbyn was absolutely right to write to the Queen. Today is a gift for him. Johnson has given him the best chance he will ever have of reviving the 2017 Labour voting coalition, with some added LibDem gains in the south on top.
You clearly have very little idea about how fed up with Brexit (and the self-entitled remain lobby) most of the country is.
You are not the country.
Not claiming to be. But then nor are you either...
It’s a bit unnerving that Pb.com - the best informed political forum in the UK - has no agreed idea of the laws and processes we will now follow, as we head into the worst constitutional crisis since the inception of the New Model Army.
If we don’t have a clue, who does?!
On that disquieting note I am going for a stroll in the Hellenic sun.
Corbyn was absolutely right to write to the Queen. Today is a gift for him. Johnson has given him the best chance he will ever have of reviving the 2017 Labour voting coalition, with some added LibDem gains in the south on top.
You clearly have very little idea about how fed up with Brexit (and the self-entitled remain lobby) most of the country is.
Being called "entitled" by a group whose leaders are mostly old Etonians may not be quite the killer blow that you think.
The old school tie Tories laid this particular crock of cack and now they are going to take what's coming to them.
Hey! @isam believes that Jacob Rees-Mogg has been left behind and hence decided to vote for Brexit.
It’s a bit unnerving that Pb.com - the best informed political forum in the UK - has no agreed idea of the laws and processes we will now follow, as we head into the worst constitutional crisis since the inception of the New Model Army.
If we don’t have a clue, who does?!
On that disquieting note I am going for a stroll in the Hellenic sun.
Some corner cases are potentially a mess but all the non-bonkers people here are agreed on the main points.
Corbyn was absolutely right to write to the Queen. Today is a gift for him. Johnson has given him the best chance he will ever have of reviving the 2017 Labour voting coalition, with some added LibDem gains in the south on top.
You clearly have very little idea about how fed up with Brexit (and the self-entitled remain lobby) most of the country is.
Being called "entitled" by a group whose leaders are mostly old Etonians may not be quite the killer blow that you think.
The old school tie Tories laid this particular crock of cack and now they are going to take what's coming to them.
I think youre dead wrong and this may win it for Boris. And im not a particular fan of his, albeit prefer him to any of the other rank deadbeats...
Comments
Doesnt Look good unless the EU cave. I wont hold my breath.
What did you actually expect him to do? Rend his garments, gnash his teeth, make burnt offerings to the Lord Boris, petitioning Bojo with prayer to spare us His hard Brexit?
Whether they meet the prima facie case test is more problematic but in this particular process they might argue that they have already got over that hurdle because they have already passed the sift which is designed to weed out unmeritorious applications and they have been allowed a full hearing.
Most MPs are Remainers and many of them have been tacitly involved in spiking Brexit, hoping no conclusion will drift on interminably. Many Brexit MPs have been holding on for unicorns. They are both as bad as one another. One side won't admit their real intention to Remain, the other side won't admit that they were wrong about the sunlit uplands.
Ultimately, there have only ever been four choices:
1. Leave with a Deal
2. Leave with No Deal
3. Hold a 2nd Referendum
4. Ignore the result and Remain
1 has proven to be impossible given current parliamentary arithmetic (caused by` May and used cunningly by Remainers), because there is no deal the EU will offer that can get through parliament. 4 would probably cause a civil war, so few countenance it. Which leaves options 2 and 3.
I'd support 2 and 3 to bring an end to this whole sorry mess. MPs can only really support one or the other. But most have been too gutless to stick their neck out for either, and have weaselly allowed the thing to drift endlessly, probably so they can cling on to their seats and privileges until a GE2022.
Well fuck that, Boris is at least bringing it to a crunch and forcing MPs to make a choice.
It might fail but good on him.
ps -it's why I have admiration rather than disdain for the likes of Grieve. At least he has publicly stuck his neck out for a policy he knows half the population will hate him for.
https://twitter.com/titaniamcgrath/status/1165267366093172736?s=21
HMQ will act on the advice of the Prime Minister. She always has to. If the House has lost confidence in the PM, then they have the means to tell HMQ, and to express their confidence in an alternative - who will then provide different advice to HMQ.
It's up to MPs now.
Low numbers in Hull, Wigan and Torfaen.
Who'd have thunk it.
Of course, that was before, this is now.
Could I be reading things wrong? Is it really No Deal and/or a GE in 2019?
Hope not. It will cost me.
I recall the notion of a possible prorogation was raised as soon as Boris became Prime Minister so it's hardly a bolt from the blue.
It's a tactic, whether it's part of a well-defined strategy or making it up as they go along is something we will discover in time.
The Conservative anti-No Deal squad are going to have to put their heads above the parapet if this is going to be blocked or changed with all the internal party risk that follows.
The two thoughts I have are first the EU negotiates with the UK Government NOT the Commons. Proroguing Parliament does not make any difference to Boris continuing to negotiate a revised WA but I continue to think the revisions he needs aren't going to be granted by the EU.
Second, who calls an election now? It seems Parliament needs to be in session in order for the FTPA to pass and Johnson seems some Opposition MPs to vote for a GE to get it over the line. He may rely on Corbyn's stupidity to allow that to happen but perhaps it may not and if the GE is blocked , it may be the VoNC will pass and an alternative administration which will prevent No Deal will command enough support in the Commons.
Is the plan therefore to have the election before 31/10 in which case the time in early September is all they have to get one called via the FTPA or is the plan to wait until the last minute and have the election in mid November with the 31/10 deadline cleared but with the attendant risk of the exit leading to problems which wouldn't reflect well on the Johnson Government?
It must be all those years in the Labour Party that got it so finely attuned.....
I wouldn't entirely rule out 4. Obviously it's incredibly damaging to any PM who does it ….. but that doesn't matter for a temporary caretaker. Might such a person be tempted to kick the whole issue into the long grass, with a revoke and general election?
They'd have joined all the remain efforts too - but they'd have voted for the deal.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/06/11/brits-oppose-proroguing-parliament-force-through-n
As @AndyJS notes, this is about making an unpalatable choice.
The WA was an unpalatable choice, but better than these options. MPs should have taken it, as Paul Masterton noted both sides can not be right.
In other words, your hopeful Leave idea is hogwash.
If we don’t have a clue, who does?!
On that disquieting note I am going for a stroll in the Hellenic sun.
https://twitter.com/steven_swinford/status/1166692310786203648?s=21
As most of the country wont hear or engage on this until the 6 o'clock news this just shows how many of the signatures are faked or duplicated.
Assuming nothing major happens.
The old school tie Tories laid this particular crock of cack and now they are going to take what's coming to them.
Not so crucial that mp's were willing to sacrifice their summer holidays though.
I have a vague feeling it will turn out to be too smart-arsed and actually not necessary.
Believe it or not the 14 day period isn't just there to give everyone a chance to chill.
And who are we to gainsay him?