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  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,562
    Byronic said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Byronic said:

    AndyJS said:

    Byronic said:

    I solemnly predict Mark Field will have to resign as minister and MP.

    Which means a fascinating by-election. His constituency is heavily pro-Remain, BUT Boris will be leader, and London Likes Bories (or it did). Very hard to call.

    He won't resign as an MP. Not sure about minister.
    Definite resignation as minister. Expect it tomorrow. As MP? Depends if he is charged. I think he will be charged (the climate changers will want the publicity) so he will go.
    He's entitled to defend himself in court.
    Yes. Of course. But the Twitter judiciary are less lenient (and social media is where politics is done, these days). He's being lynched. Perhaps he deserves it. Dunno.
    Wow. Just seen the video. What the f**k?
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052
    Byronic said:

    I solemnly predict Mark Field will have to resign as minister and MP.

    Which means a fascinating by-election. His constituency is heavily pro-Remain, BUT Boris will be leader, and London Likes Bories (or it did). Very hard to call.

    I doubt he'll volunteer to resign but if charges are pressed it's possible the party will put pressure on him to stand down. If he's convicted there'll be a recall petition anyway.

    Until recently I'd've said that Labour would win a by-election, but things are obviously more complicated now.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,960
    kle4 said:

    viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't think that will save him. Two wrongs don't make a right. To use a favoured expression of mine, if I deliberately stand on your toe that makes me a dick and inthe wrong, but it doesn't mean you will be ok to punch me in the face in response

    Without getting involved in this case, if someone deliberately stamps on your foot I think that does justify you punching them. If you're under physical assault I think hitting someone back is perfectly justified.
    Agreed.
    Except that was not the scenario I outlined. Christ, I know PB loves pedantry, but the concept of a disproportionate response is hard to grasp?

    Unless you are seriously 'agreeing' that it is acceptable to punch someone for standing on your toe (not stamping on a foot). Because, again, that is what I said. I did not say it is unacceptable to respond to a significant assault.
    I'm not saying it would be acceptable. I'm certainly not saying I would do it, because I am the wussiest wuss who ever wussed. But in certain circs it would not be surprising or even remarkable. There are some nasty people in the world.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    O/T

    This is a bit creepy and 1984-like:


    "Paperless conferences have some hidden agendas
    Delegates often have to download apps that track our every move — and who we talk to"

    https://www.ft.com/content/0e632efa-90ee-11e9-b7ea-60e35ef678d2

    (Google it to get round the paywall).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989

    AndyJS said:

    Very disappointed that Gove went out today.

    The backstabbing ex-candidate who is least the trusted by the general public to sell them a used car?
    In the Brexit debate I think the sides are arguing for the car to be magically returned to how it was before as if nothing ever happened to it, or for it to become some kind of world class dirigible for the same price as a used car. I think Rory was the one selling a used car, but it was too clapped out to be worth anything.
  • mwjfrome17mwjfrome17 Posts: 158
    The safety of the Chancellor and the Governor of the BoE are paramount.

    And the sooner we keep a lunatic like Mark Field away from them, the better.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,284
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    These really do feel like the dying days of government. It's just bad news after bad news.

    Is this was the last days of the Major government felt like?

    Maybe, but as Boris will be the best Tory PM since Thatcher it will not be for long.


    A better comparison is the last days of the Neville Chamberlain government before Winston came in
    Churchill was forced on an unwilling Tory party by the Leader of the opposition as Labour were unwilling to support the Tory choice.
    Boris has been forced on an unwilling Tory Party by Nigel Farage, the winner of the European elections.

    Boris will fight Farage as much as Churchill fought Attlee once he got the job, even if they are and were united on one aim initially, delivering Brexit and defeating Hitler
    IN 1940 it was a Conservative, Labour, Liberal coalition government that insisted on Churchill. Boris has barely 51% support within his own party, and zero from other parties.
    It was not the Tory MPs that insisted on Churchill until the end they backed Chamberlain much as current Tories backed May until no alternative and Labour was fiercely anti Churchill on domestic policy, Boris has overwhelming support from most of his party's voters though and indeed from Brexit Party voters too and Leavers who made up 52% of the voters in 2016.

    If May is Chamberlain and Hunt is Halifax then Boris is Churchill and of course given Corbyn technically still backs Brexit on that aim at least he is allied with Boris as Attlee was with Churchill on beating Hitler, whatever their domestic disagreements.
    Boris Johnson's statemanship should not be underestimated and was in no small measure the catalyst for victory in 1945...at least in the mind of HYUFD.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    HYUFD said:


    He won't resign as an MP and in any case even if he was a bit heavy handed I am getting fed up of these annoying eco warriors who think it is being very courageous invading the Mansion House but would never dream of doing the same in Moscow or Beijing where much of the real difference to climate will be made

    Indeed. While we plan to build one extra runway at Heathrow, China in the same period plans 200+ new airports, so maybe 500 new runways - Beijing just added eight new runways alone.





  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    And if there is one thing that signals the disconnect of the metropolitan liberal media in central London from the rest of the country it is the idea that a whinging eco warrior barging into an official dinner is of more importance than delivering Brexit
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989
    edited June 2019
    viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't think that will save him. Two wrongs don't make a right. To use a favoured expression of mine, if I deliberately stand on your toe that makes me a dick and inthe wrong, but it doesn't mean you will be ok to punch me in the face in response

    Without getting involved in this case, if someone deliberately stamps on your foot I think that does justify you punching them. If you're under physical assault I think hitting someone back is perfectly justified.
    Agreed.
    Except that was not the scenario I outlined. Christ, I know PB loves pedantry, but the concept of a disproportionate response is hard to grasp?

    Unless you are seriously 'agreeing' that it is acceptable to punch someone for standing on your toe (not stamping on a foot). Because, again, that is what I said. I did not say it is unacceptable to respond to a significant assault.
    I'm not saying it would be acceptable. I'm certainly not saying I would do it, because I am the wussiest wuss who ever wussed. But in certain circs it would not be surprising or even remarkable.
    The circumstances were the scenario I outlined, not any other, why imagine a different one? Of course in some situations a response is acceptable, who would say otherwise, but that was not the question, the question was would it be acceptable to respond so disproportionately to a minor circumstance.

    Again, think of it in the abstract if you are for some reason hung on up practicalities of toe stepping seriousness.

    I should have just said 'don't overreact', but I am seriouslty amazed that some people are taking 'don't react out of proportion' to be 'you must never response to assault'.

    Pleasant dreams. Even to Mark Field, if he was already in bed - it might be his easiest night to sleep for awhile.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,379
    The eyes say. "How very dare you intrude on our world?"
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,562
    Andrew said:

    HYUFD said:


    He won't resign as an MP and in any case even if he was a bit heavy handed I am getting fed up of these annoying eco warriors who think it is being very courageous invading the Mansion House but would never dream of doing the same in Moscow or Beijing where much of the real difference to climate will be made

    Indeed. While we plan to build one extra runway at Heathrow, China in the same period plans 200+ new airports, so maybe 500 new runways - Beijing just added eight new runways alone.





    The local is the global. Change what you can.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,562
    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1141837324621422593

    Is Hunt done before we even start the next stage?
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Quite. Which is why he will resign as a minister in the morning, and probably as an MP, in time.

    Boris and Hunt are not entirely stupid, they can see how this plays into every anti-Tory trope ever invented. They will want to distance themselves fast, and with great eagerness. T May won't be chuffed, either, thinking of women voters.

    Lordy.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    HYUFD said:

    And if there is one thing that signals the disconnect of the metropolitan liberal media in central London from the rest of the country it is the idea that a whinging eco warrior barging into an official dinner is of more importance than delivering Brexit
    Textbook example of the Drunk Driver fallacy.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,562
    Mail are out on this one . Big trouble for Tories tonight:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1141843268998705158
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1141837324621422593

    Is Hunt done before we even start the next stage?

    Hard to see how, if as expected he comes out and condemns Field in the morning. Not that he had much chance anyway, but it's not like he can screen junior ministers by asking if they will ever grab protestors by the back of the neck.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Andrew said:

    HYUFD said:


    He won't resign as an MP and in any case even if he was a bit heavy handed I am getting fed up of these annoying eco warriors who think it is being very courageous invading the Mansion House but would never dream of doing the same in Moscow or Beijing where much of the real difference to climate will be made

    Indeed. While we plan to build one extra runway at Heathrow, China in the same period plans 200+ new airports, so maybe 500 new runways - Beijing just added eight new runways alone.





    I agree and would there have been a similar reaction had the protester been male? Is that a valid question?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,562
    Byronic said:

    Quite. Which is why he will resign as a minister in the morning, and probably as an MP, in time.

    Boris and Hunt are not entirely stupid, they can see how this plays into every anti-Tory trope ever invented. They will want to distance themselves fast, and with great eagerness. T May won't be chuffed, either, thinking of women voters.

    Lordy.
    Just when one thinks the day's mad events are over and puts one's feet up with a glass of Talisker.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114

    Byronic said:

    Quite. Which is why he will resign as a minister in the morning, and probably as an MP, in time.

    Boris and Hunt are not entirely stupid, they can see how this plays into every anti-Tory trope ever invented. They will want to distance themselves fast, and with great eagerness. T May won't be chuffed, either, thinking of women voters.

    Lordy.
    Just when one thinks the day's mad events are over and puts one's feet up with a glass of Talisker.
    Ardbeg for me!
  • mwjfrome17mwjfrome17 Posts: 158
    HYUFD said:

    And if there is one thing that signals the disconnect of the metropolitan liberal media in central London from the rest of the country it is the idea that a whinging eco warrior barging into an official dinner is of more importance than delivering Brexit
    You got 52% dickhead...many of whom are now dead. Its over. At least eco warriers think of the future and not the past as your lot do.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,542

    Andrew said:

    HYUFD said:


    He won't resign as an MP and in any case even if he was a bit heavy handed I am getting fed up of these annoying eco warriors who think it is being very courageous invading the Mansion House but would never dream of doing the same in Moscow or Beijing where much of the real difference to climate will be made

    Indeed. While we plan to build one extra runway at Heathrow, China in the same period plans 200+ new airports, so maybe 500 new runways - Beijing just added eight new runways alone.

    The local is the global. Change what you can.
    So replacing local factories with Chinese factories helps how exactly ?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,740
    dixiedean said:

    The eyes say. "How very dare you intrude on our world?"

    The eyes said to me "I'm out of control!"
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1141837324621422593

    Is Hunt done before we even start the next stage?

    Hard to see how, if as expected he comes out and condemns Field in the morning. Not that he had much chance anyway, but it's not like he can screen junior ministers by asking if they will ever grab protestors by the back of the neck.
    TB very F to Mr Field, i have looked at the video again. The woman is holding aloft a silvery phone at an angle. It looks distinctly like a knife. You can see it as she is marched out (by the scruff of her neck) - it STILL looks like a knife. But is also a phone.

    I suspect that will be his defence, and it will probably be true. But it will serve him nought. The video is too awful to yield to nuance.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,562
    Mortimer said:

    Byronic said:

    Quite. Which is why he will resign as a minister in the morning, and probably as an MP, in time.

    Boris and Hunt are not entirely stupid, they can see how this plays into every anti-Tory trope ever invented. They will want to distance themselves fast, and with great eagerness. T May won't be chuffed, either, thinking of women voters.

    Lordy.
    Just when one thinks the day's mad events are over and puts one's feet up with a glass of Talisker.
    Ardbeg for me!
    Fine choice.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Mortimer said:

    Byronic said:

    Quite. Which is why he will resign as a minister in the morning, and probably as an MP, in time.

    Boris and Hunt are not entirely stupid, they can see how this plays into every anti-Tory trope ever invented. They will want to distance themselves fast, and with great eagerness. T May won't be chuffed, either, thinking of women voters.

    Lordy.
    Just when one thinks the day's mad events are over and puts one's feet up with a glass of Talisker.
    Ardbeg for me!
    Any Islay will do for me. Tonight it just happens to be Ardbeg too/
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,542
    edited June 2019

    The safety of the Chancellor and the Governor of the BoE are paramount.

    And the sooner we keep a lunatic like Mark Field away from them, the better.

    :lol:
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,028
    Astonishing LD gain from Lab in Merton.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,562
    Byronic said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1141837324621422593

    Is Hunt done before we even start the next stage?

    Hard to see how, if as expected he comes out and condemns Field in the morning. Not that he had much chance anyway, but it's not like he can screen junior ministers by asking if they will ever grab protestors by the back of the neck.
    TB very F to Mr Field, i have looked at the video again. The woman is holding aloft a silvery phone at an angle. It looks distinctly like a knife. You can see it as she is marched out (by the scruff of her neck) - it STILL looks like a knife. But is also a phone.

    I suspect that will be his defence, and it will probably be true. But it will serve him nought. The video is too awful to yield to nuance.
    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1141843476558090240
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989
    The arseness of climate change eco warriors is hardly going to be relevant. Large numbers of Tory MPs will no doubt say that very thing tomorrow when they condemn Field while making clear they dislike protestors. But they are already being undermined by the attempt to excuse his actions (even those who claim not to be excusing them) by trying to shift the focus onto the arseness of the eco warriors.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611

    HYUFD said:

    And if there is one thing that signals the disconnect of the metropolitan liberal media in central London from the rest of the country it is the idea that a whinging eco warrior barging into an official dinner is of more importance than delivering Brexit
    You got 52% dickhead...many of whom are now dead. Its over. At least eco warriers think of the future and not the past as your lot do.
    No, eco warriors are clueless virtue signallers on the whole when the government is actually cutting emissions at a faster rate than almost any other developed country while keeping the lights on.

    Last time I checked 52% was also a majority
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,379
    If there is one thing that signals the disconnect between the Tory metropolitan media in Central London from the rest of the country, it is the idea that an official dinner is more important than climate change.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    HYUFD said:

    And if there is one thing that signals the disconnect of the metropolitan liberal media in central London from the rest of the country it is the idea that a whinging eco warrior barging into an official dinner is of more importance than delivering Brexit
    You got 52% dickhead...many of whom are now dead. Its over. At least eco warriers think of the future and not the past as your lot do.
    past your bedtime?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    It's amazing that 70% of Tory members are men today, because I'm pretty sure the majority always used to be women until fairly recently.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842
    This does not appear to me to be gender related violence. It is against protester invading an event. Does he go to far? Very probably. Would he have acted the same against a male protester? Almost certainly. Not everything can be seen through the gender prism.

    There will, of course, be no nuance on how this is reported or in the (over)reaction to it.

    He didn't remove her because she was a woman. But because she was invading a high profile event.

    Was he right to do so? Hard to say but it looks rather disproportionate.

    Was it gendered violence? Doesn't look like it to me.

    Are the optics bad? Of course.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,562
    slade said:

    Astonishing LD gain from Lab in Merton.

    Let me guess... it is something to do with Jezza being an out and out Brexiteer who pretends to sit on the fence?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,542
    Does anyone know how much Mark Field had had to drink ?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    AndyJS said:

    Byronic said:

    I solemnly predict Mark Field will have to resign as minister and MP.

    Which means a fascinating by-election. His constituency is heavily pro-Remain, BUT Boris will be leader, and London Likes Bories (or it did). Very hard to call.

    He won't resign as an MP. Not sure about minister.
    He'll probably resign as a minister, the public will hear resign, the bandwagon will move on.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,562

    Mortimer said:

    Byronic said:

    Quite. Which is why he will resign as a minister in the morning, and probably as an MP, in time.

    Boris and Hunt are not entirely stupid, they can see how this plays into every anti-Tory trope ever invented. They will want to distance themselves fast, and with great eagerness. T May won't be chuffed, either, thinking of women voters.

    Lordy.
    Just when one thinks the day's mad events are over and puts one's feet up with a glass of Talisker.
    Ardbeg for me!
    Any Islay will do for me. Tonight it just happens to be Ardbeg too/
    Keep them coming I say. I like all those mentioned so far. Enjoyed a Glen Moray the other day.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    Andrew said:

    HYUFD said:


    He won't resign as an MP and in any case even if he was a bit heavy handed I am getting fed up of these annoying eco warriors who think it is being very courageous invading the Mansion House but would never dream of doing the same in Moscow or Beijing where much of the real difference to climate will be made

    Indeed. While we plan to build one extra runway at Heathrow, China in the same period plans 200+ new airports, so maybe 500 new runways - Beijing just added eight new runways alone.





    Exactly and we all know what the Chinese response would have been to a demonstrator who barged into a dinner with leading Chinese officials and it would likely have involved a back to the wall and no coming back
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,562

    Does anyone know how much Mark Field had had to drink ?

    More even than I have this evening?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Iain Martin (@iainmartin1) Tweeted:
    @joncstone @StevePeers Perhaps we should have a liberal bureau of protest policed by you. No, tell you what. Don't breach security. Don't creep up on people. Don't head for the Chancellor. Three years after an MP was assassinated.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989
    edited June 2019
    Last point, probably better for Hunt to say he has sacked Field (or asked May to sack him, I assume technically PMs appoint all junior ministers), rather than that he has resigned. Looks tougher.

    This does not appear to me to be gender related violence. It is against protester invading an event. Does he go to far? Very probably. Would he have acted the same against a male protester? Almost certainly. Not everything can be seen through the gender prism.

    There will, of course, be no nuance on how this is reported or in the (over)reaction to it.

    He didn't remove her because she was a woman. But because she was invading a high profile event.

    Was he right to do so? Hard to say but it looks rather disproportionate.

    Was it gendered violence? Doesn't look like it to me.

    Are the optics bad? Of course.

    The last point is the key. As you say probably not gendered, but it definitely makes what would already have been a bad look even worse
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,984

    Byronic said:

    Quite. Which is why he will resign as a minister in the morning, and probably as an MP, in time.

    Boris and Hunt are not entirely stupid, they can see how this plays into every anti-Tory trope ever invented. They will want to distance themselves fast, and with great eagerness. T May won't be chuffed, either, thinking of women voters.

    Lordy.
    Just when one thinks the day's mad events are over and puts one's feet up with a glass of Talisker.
    Working my way through their Distillers edition currently :)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,068
    Mail comments disagree with Twitter. Curiouser and curiouser...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,523
    dixiedean said:

    If there is one thing that signals the disconnect between the Tory metropolitan media in Central London from the rest of the country, it is the idea that an official dinner is more important than climate change.

    Indeed, and if anything signals the disconnect of the Tories from young voters, it is an angry man in black tie, beating a young environmental activist.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Merton - Cannon Hill

    LD 1060
    Lab 875
    Con 867
    Green 158
    UKIP 68

    LD gain from Lab
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,523
    Pulpstar said:

    Mail comments disagree with Twitter. Curiouser and curiouser...

    Are they the usual commentators from Tennessee and St Petersburg?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842

    Mail are out on this one . Big trouble for Tories tonight:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1141843268998705158

    What a ridiculous reaction.

    I am not defending assault. However this notion of ladies and gentlemen is somewhat outdated and ludicrous. We should respect each other as human beings. Your gender should not offer you particular protections or expectations of chivalrous behaviour.

    I have seen both men and women behaving atrociously towards one another. They should be treated equally by the judicial system. And they very clearly aren't.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    If I were Field I'd stay clear of both Boris and Hunt tomorrow - neither would have wanted this to be the story they get pressed on on the first day of their campaign.


    One possible misconception Twitter may be operating under is that there is widespread support for disruption caused by climate change protestors....
    Oh, I ime on.
    Without getting involved in this case, if someone deliberately stamps on your foot I think that does justify you punching them. If you're under physical assault I think hitting someone back is perfectly justified.
    My metaphor was deliberately 'stand on', not 'stamp' (and on toe, not foot), precisely because the point was the disproportionate nature of the response exceeding the initial wrongdoing. Of course the response can be justified if the instigating event is made more serious, but that's not what I described, or I would think how people will view the proportionate nature of Field's response.
    Well you said deliberately. I don't know many people who deliberately (as opposed to accidentally) step on toes. If it is a deliberate action I'd imagine it as a stomp or I can't imagine why someone would do it, in which case retaliation in that moment is justifiable.
    You're confusing me. Yes, I did say deliberately. But that you cannot imagine someone merely stepping on a toe deliberately does not change that the scenario I chose to describe was very clearly not the one you imagined and which I wrote very clearly, so why did you make up another one? You saw the word deliberately, but did not see the word 'stand'?

    The unlikelihood of the scenario was hardly the point, and I'm certainly not making the argument that if it was an actual assault a retaliation would not be justified, so why argue a point no one is contesting?

    If it makes it easier for you, focus on the abstract point - that even if the initial action from party a is wrong, party b can be even more in the wrong through a disproportionate response.
    Agreed.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,379
    HYUFD said:

    Andrew said:

    HYUFD said:


    He won't resign as an MP and in any case even if he was a bit heavy handed I am getting fed up of these annoying eco warriors who think it is being very courageous invading the Mansion House but would never dream of doing the same in Moscow or Beijing where much of the real difference to climate will be made

    Indeed. While we plan to build one extra runway at Heathrow, China in the same period plans 200+ new airports, so maybe 500 new runways - Beijing just added eight new runways alone.





    Exactly and we all know what the Chinese response would have been to a demonstrator who barged into a dinner with leading Chinese officials and it would likely have involved a back to the wall and no coming back
    So. Are you in favour of shooting protestors? Or not? Just to be clear.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989
    HYUFD said:

    Andrew said:

    HYUFD said:


    He won't resign as an MP and in any case even if he was a bit heavy handed I am getting fed up of these annoying eco warriors who think it is being very courageous invading the Mansion House but would never dream of doing the same in Moscow or Beijing where much of the real difference to climate will be made

    Indeed. While we plan to build one extra runway at Heathrow, China in the same period plans 200+ new airports, so maybe 500 new runways - Beijing just added eight new runways alone.

    Exactly and we all know what the Chinese response would have been to a demonstrator who barged into a dinner with leading Chinese officials and it would likely have involved a back to the wall and no coming back
    Oh marvellous, it's ok because he didn't respond like the Chinese Communist Party?
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    If there is one thing that signals the disconnect between the Tory metropolitan media in Central London from the rest of the country, it is the idea that an official dinner is more important than climate change.

    Indeed, and if anything signals the disconnect of the Tories from young voters, it is an angry man in black tie, beating a young environmental activist.
    And we see the escalation in the other direction as started too.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2019
    edit
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,028

    Merton - Cannon Hill

    LD 1060
    Lab 875
    Con 867
    Green 158
    UKIP 68

    LD gain from Lab

    19% swing from Lab to LD.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,542
    Does anyone know anything about the woman ?

    It may be that she's got some 'history' - if so Field could be lucky.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    kle4 said:

    Last point, probably better for Hunt to say he has sacked Field (or asked May to sack him, I assume technically PMs appoint all junior ministers), rather than that he has resigned. Looks tougher.

    This does not appear to me to be gender related violence. It is against protester invading an event. Does he go to far? Very probably. Would he have acted the same against a male protester? Almost certainly. Not everything can be seen through the gender prism.

    There will, of course, be no nuance on how this is reported or in the (over)reaction to it.

    He didn't remove her because she was a woman. But because she was invading a high profile event.

    Was he right to do so? Hard to say but it looks rather disproportionate.

    Was it gendered violence? Doesn't look like it to me.

    Are the optics bad? Of course.

    The last point is the key. As you say probably not gendered, but it definitely makes what would already have been a bad look even worse
    Yes. Hunt needs to sack Field (as a campaign dude), he surely knows that, and that will surely happen first thing tomorrow.

    Stuff like this makes it worse. These are his FRIENDS:

    https://twitter.com/JoelTaylorhack/status/1141846418509979649

    Enough. Night night.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,379

    This does not appear to me to be gender related violence. It is against protester invading an event. Does he go to far? Very probably. Would he have acted the same against a male protester? Almost certainly. Not everything can be seen through the gender prism.

    There will, of course, be no nuance on how this is reported or in the (over)reaction to it.

    He didn't remove her because she was a woman. But because she was invading a high profile event.

    Was he right to do so? Hard to say but it looks rather disproportionate.

    Was it gendered violence? Doesn't look like it to me.

    Are the optics bad? Of course.

    Very fair.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Pulpstar said:

    Mail comments disagree with Twitter. Curiouser and curiouser...

    Twitter is full of shit 99% of the time, (no offence to PBers on there).
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052
    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1141837324621422593

    Is Hunt done before we even start the next stage?

    Hard to see how, if as expected he comes out and condemns Field in the morning. Not that he had much chance anyway, but it's not like he can screen junior ministers by asking if they will ever grab protestors by the back of the neck.
    You're forgetting who the electorate are in the leadership race. If he sacks Field he'll do even worse against Bojo than he was going to anyway.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,068
    How did the climate protestors even get in ?
    I've been near the Tory conference in Manchester before and you can't get within a hundred yards of where it's all going on.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Does anyone know how much Mark Field had had to drink ?

    Drink is not an excuse. If he blames drink rather than the threat of violence (an MP has been killed before) then that makes it worse not better.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,542
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    If there is one thing that signals the disconnect between the Tory metropolitan media in Central London from the rest of the country, it is the idea that an official dinner is more important than climate change.

    Indeed, and if anything signals the disconnect of the Tories from young voters, it is an angry man in black tie, beating a young environmental activist.
    I thought the projections were for ever increasing air travel.

    If so there's a disconnect between that and the environmental concerns of the young I see mentioned.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    AndyJS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mail comments disagree with Twitter. Curiouser and curiouser...

    Twitter is full of shit 99% of the time, (no offence to PBers on there).
    Only 99%? That's generous.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    Dadge said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1141837324621422593

    Is Hunt done before we even start the next stage?

    Hard to see how, if as expected he comes out and condemns Field in the morning. Not that he had much chance anyway, but it's not like he can screen junior ministers by asking if they will ever grab protestors by the back of the neck.
    You're forgetting who the electorate are in the leadership race. If he sacks Field he'll do even worse against Bojo than he was going to anyway.
    Yes, Tory members do not want yet more virtue signalling like they had with May, they want someone who will take on and fight the left not appease them
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,542
    edited June 2019

    Does anyone know how much Mark Field had had to drink ?

    Drink is not an excuse. If he blames drink rather than the threat of violence (an MP has been killed before) then that makes it worse not better.
    Certainly.

    If Field had overindulged on doubtlessly expensive drink then it will be worse.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Nice to see people using the murder of Jo Cox to defend a bully.

    Maybe we should act like Jo Brand and suggest that battery acid be thrown on politicans we don't like?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andrew said:

    HYUFD said:


    He won't resign as an MP and in any case even if he was a bit heavy handed I am getting fed up of these annoying eco warriors who think it is being very courageous invading the Mansion House but would never dream of doing the same in Moscow or Beijing where much of the real difference to climate will be made

    Indeed. While we plan to build one extra runway at Heathrow, China in the same period plans 200+ new airports, so maybe 500 new runways - Beijing just added eight new runways alone.





    Exactly and we all know what the Chinese response would have been to a demonstrator who barged into a dinner with leading Chinese officials and it would likely have involved a back to the wall and no coming back
    So. Are you in favour of shooting protestors? Or not? Just to be clear.
    No, I am in favour of proper security at official functions
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    edited June 2019


    Nice to see people using the murder of Jo Cox to defend a bully.

    It makes a refreshing change from using the murder to smear half the population as xenophobes.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited June 2019
    This evening was the last day to hold Labour reselection meetings for London Assembly Members. CLPs need to send their "votes" to Regional Party by noon tomorrow. In the new process mirring the one for MPs, they need to win over 2/3 of party branches to get automatically reselected (and 2/3 of affiliates).

    Florence Eshalomi (Southwark and Lambeth AM) survived in the end with 3 CLPs in her favour out of 4 (Camberwell and Peckham was against). Streatham CLP trigger ballot result (she narrowly lost it) was ruled invalid because they didn't follow the correct procedure.

    Len Duvall (got 5 CLPs out of 6 in Greenwich and Lewisham. Lewisham Deptford was the one against reselection), Unmesh Desai (5 CLPs out of 7 in City & East. West Ham and East CLPs were against) and Joanne McCartney (6 out of 6 that voted in Enfield & Haringey. Enfield North didn't hold the vote as she was already above the threshold) were reselected too.

    I don't know the outcomes for Leonie Cooper (Merton & Wandsworth) and Onkar Sahota (Ealing and Hillingdon). Sahota was at risk as he already lost the ballot in Ealing Central.

    Dismore, Shah and Arnold are retiring.
  • mwjfrome17mwjfrome17 Posts: 158
    HYUFD said:

    Dadge said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1141837324621422593

    Is Hunt done before we even start the next stage?

    Hard to see how, if as expected he comes out and condemns Field in the morning. Not that he had much chance anyway, but it's not like he can screen junior ministers by asking if they will ever grab protestors by the back of the neck.
    You're forgetting who the electorate are in the leadership race. If he sacks Field he'll do even worse against Bojo than he was going to anyway.
    Yes, Tory members do not want yet more virtue signalling like they had with May, they want someone who will take on and fight the left not appease them
    So sacking Mark Field would be appeasement of what exactly?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    Pulpstar said:

    Mail comments disagree with Twitter. Curiouser and curiouser...

    Yes a fair amount of support for Field on Mail online and a few more supportive comments emerging on Twitter now too
  • mwjfrome17mwjfrome17 Posts: 158
    Pauly said:


    Nice to see people using the murder of Jo Cox to defend a bully.

    It makes a refreshing change from using the murder to smear half the population as xenophobes.
    its not half apparently, but 52%
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,523

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    If there is one thing that signals the disconnect between the Tory metropolitan media in Central London from the rest of the country, it is the idea that an official dinner is more important than climate change.

    Indeed, and if anything signals the disconnect of the Tories from young voters, it is an angry man in black tie, beating a young environmental activist.
    I thought the projections were for ever increasing air travel.

    If so there's a disconnect between that and the environmental concerns of the young I see mentioned.
    Precisely why we have to do something about it, or it won't just be air travel that is increasing as a rising tide:

    Where Donald really needs to build his wall... https://t.co/tYprHvEPdS

    — fox insoxuk (@foxinsoxuk) June 20, 2019
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 897

    Pauly said:


    Nice to see people using the murder of Jo Cox to defend a bully.

    It makes a refreshing change from using the murder to smear half the population as xenophobes.
    its not half apparently, but 52%
    We're all T̶h̶a̶t̶c̶h̶e̶r̶i̶t̶e̶s̶ B̶l̶a̶i̶r̶i̶t̶e̶s̶ Brexiteers now.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mail comments disagree with Twitter. Curiouser and curiouser...

    Yes a fair amount of support for Field on Mail online and a few more supportive comments emerging on Twitter now too
    The truth is almost none of them are properly informed to comment on the incident.
  • mwjfrome17mwjfrome17 Posts: 158
    Now all we have to do is compare tonigh'ts reactions to the day Otis Ferry invaded the HOC and was fined £350.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611

    HYUFD said:

    Dadge said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1141837324621422593

    Is Hunt done before we even start the next stage?

    Hard to see how, if as expected he comes out and condemns Field in the morning. Not that he had much chance anyway, but it's not like he can screen junior ministers by asking if they will ever grab protestors by the back of the neck.
    You're forgetting who the electorate are in the leadership race. If he sacks Field he'll do even worse against Bojo than he was going to anyway.
    Yes, Tory members do not want yet more virtue signalling like they had with May, they want someone who will take on and fight the left not appease them
    So sacking Mark Field would be appeasement of what exactly?
    Virtue signalling eco warriors who think they can barge their way in anywhere with no thought for security concerns and no interest in constructive measures to actually reduce emissions that have led the UK to have one of the lowest emissions rates in the developed world
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,542
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    If there is one thing that signals the disconnect between the Tory metropolitan media in Central London from the rest of the country, it is the idea that an official dinner is more important than climate change.

    Indeed, and if anything signals the disconnect of the Tories from young voters, it is an angry man in black tie, beating a young environmental activist.
    I thought the projections were for ever increasing air travel.

    If so there's a disconnect between that and the environmental concerns of the young I see mentioned.
    Precisely why we have to do something about it, or it won't just be air travel that is increasing as a rising tide:

    Where Donald really needs to build his wall... https://t.co/tYprHvEPdS

    — fox insoxuk (@foxinsoxuk) June 20, 2019


    Doing something about it doesn't seem to include going without foreign travel,

    Perhaps the current teenagers will chose to go without once they're old enough to make their own decisions.

    If so they'll have my respect.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2019
    "The theory was straightforward. Boris would prefer the run-off to be against Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt, who backed Remain in 2016, rather than Mr Gove, a fierce intellectual who has impeccable Brexiteer credentials. Indeeed in private, Team Gove believe the vote has been rigged all week.

    They muttered darkly that Rory Stewart's numbers were inflated to remove Dominic Raab, another Brexiteer threat to Boris, and Sajid Javid's vote was pushed up to keep him in the race and stop his supporters going to Mr Gove.
    All fingers pointed at one man: Gavin Williamson, the former chief whip and Defence Secretary who seemed to revel in his reputation for Machiavellian dark arts.
    There was another issue raising paranoia levels yesterday: the large number of proxy votes. Around ninety Tory MPs were not physically in the Commons."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7164853/Dark-dealing-does-Gove-nods-winks-plot-dealt-man-Boris-feared-fatal-blow.html
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    justin124 said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hunt = Bryan Gould

    Bryan Gould would have been an interesting leader for Labour, and if had won would have prevented Blair getting the opportunity. I always liked his style and politics, but with his sane Euroscepticism (he resigned from John Smiths front bench over Maastricht) would have taken Labour in a very different direction. He would have won in 97, but not the same landslide.
    Indeed - Bryan Gould was the man I always wanted to see as Labour leader. Very bright and such a lovely guy too. A moderniser of a very different ilk to Blair.
    According to Private Eye at the time he danced a jig of joy when he heard John Smith had megged it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    AndyJS said:


    All fingers pointed at one man: Gavin Williamson, the former chief whip and Defence Secretary who seemed to revel in his reputation for Machiavellian dark arts.

    As if Boris being PM isn't going to be bad enough......what will Pike's reward be?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Dura_Ace said:

    justin124 said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hunt = Bryan Gould

    Bryan Gould would have been an interesting leader for Labour, and if had won would have prevented Blair getting the opportunity. I always liked his style and politics, but with his sane Euroscepticism (he resigned from John Smiths front bench over Maastricht) would have taken Labour in a very different direction. He would have won in 97, but not the same landslide.
    Indeed - Bryan Gould was the man I always wanted to see as Labour leader. Very bright and such a lovely guy too. A moderniser of a very different ilk to Blair.
    According to Private Eye at the time he danced a jig of joy when he heard John Smith had megged it.
    Saw John Smith holding court in the bar car of the Edinburgh sleeper once, surrounded by adoring acolytes, hanging on his every word..and keeping his Whiskies topped up.....
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    AndyJS said:


    All fingers pointed at one man: Gavin Williamson, the former chief whip and Defence Secretary who seemed to revel in his reputation for Machiavellian dark arts.

    As if Boris being PM isn't going to be bad enough......what will Pike's reward be?
    Instant promotion from civilian to 4* General like Putin's defence minister, Shoygu.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842

    AndyJS said:


    All fingers pointed at one man: Gavin Williamson, the former chief whip and Defence Secretary who seemed to revel in his reputation for Machiavellian dark arts.

    As if Boris being PM isn't going to be bad enough......what will Pike's reward be?
    A return to being Chief Whip would seem sensible. Out of the public eye but using whatever is necessary to keep people in line. Parliamentary discipline is essential and he does seem to show some skill in controlling these forces. He isn't really fit for a ministry job.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,786
    edited June 2019
    viewcode said:
    Back then, I would guess he was ahead of the game using fast automated software to handle all of this. I doubt he can do that these days.

    10+ years ago, Betfair was incredibly "soft" and full of morons who hadn't a clue. I used to bet cricket totals, it was like taking candy off a baby.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,786
    EU leaders fail to agree top job candidates in Brussels talks

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48706193
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,960
    edited June 2019

    viewcode said:
    Back then, I would guess he was ahead of the game using fast automated software to handle all of this. I doubt he can do that these days.

    10+ years ago, Betfair was incredibly "soft" and full of morons who hadn't a clue. I used to bet cricket totals, it was like taking candy off a baby.
    Oddly, you're not the first person to tell me this. Political statistics is an obscure field but the sports statisticians aren't, and I keep bumping into them in conferences. They also point out things were looser then
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Dura_Ace said:

    justin124 said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hunt = Bryan Gould

    Bryan Gould would have been an interesting leader for Labour, and if had won would have prevented Blair getting the opportunity. I always liked his style and politics, but with his sane Euroscepticism (he resigned from John Smiths front bench over Maastricht) would have taken Labour in a very different direction. He would have won in 97, but not the same landslide.
    Indeed - Bryan Gould was the man I always wanted to see as Labour leader. Very bright and such a lovely guy too. A moderniser of a very different ilk to Blair.
    According to Private Eye at the time he danced a jig of joy when he heard John Smith had megged it.
    Saw John Smith holding court in the bar car of the Edinburgh sleeper once, surrounded by adoring acolytes, hanging on his every word..and keeping his Whiskies topped up.....
    There is the story of the man who told John Smith that he (Smith) had torn his trousers. Aye, and if you look closely you can see the split in the Cabinet.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited June 2019
    Brecon & Radnor recall petition to be counted at 10 o'clock
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48706720

    So if it takes one hour to count 313 votes, the B&R result should be in before Christmas. The threshold for recall is 5,303 votes.
This discussion has been closed.