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  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    @bigjohnowls - all the best for a speedy recovery.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    edited June 2019
    alex. said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Artist said:

    67/33 to Johnson according to the YouGov members poll from a month ago. I can't see many/any switchers.

    I wouldn't take it for granted.

    Boris might only win 56-44 in extremis.
    Even the people enthusiastic about Hunt don't see, that enthusiastic about him. How does he challenge Boris's tight grip on the members? Careful caution?
    I think Boris needs to have a moment (get caught admitting he will never exit with No Deal) or gets accused by a former close ally of being really a Remainer who doesn't believe in Leave and only backed it to help with his leadership ambitions.
    If Hunt then tacked to full Leave with the competence to prove it and expose Boris in the hustings he could then still win with the members.
    Hunt has already said he would extend beyond October, he cannot get away from that and the members will not vote for that
    He's said he would if a deal is close and absolutely necessary and Boris will do exactly the same.
    Boris has said we will leave in October, Hunt has said he would extend.

    The only question in this race is whether Hunt can get ahead of Davis' 32% in 2005, in the last ConHome Tory members poll he was on 26% v Boris on 72%
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/06/next-tory-leader-run-offs-johnson-tops-them-javid-improves-his-position-and-stewart-is-bottom.html
    Just as a matter of interest, looking past Johnson winning a majority for potential no deal at a General Election, how do you see the course of the Government progressing after no deal actually happens? What do you personally feel the economic consequences of no deal will be and how will Johnson deal with them?
    Boris wants a FTA for GB, he is not bothered about the backstop, Deal or No Deal he will pivot to that once he gets a majority and can dispense with the DUP and Barnier and the EU would accept it, so No Deal would be temporary
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    kle4 said:

    I think we're already seeing signs of how Borisphobes will justify staying within the fold. It's like watching Labour moderates under Corbyn. Hopefully he will be a better leader than Corbyn.

    He will be.

    Take Brexit out of the equation, take his clownish persona out of the equation, politically he is a very moderate MP. He is far closer to Osborne/Cameron than the extremist he gets painted as or that Corbyn really is.
    There is a lot of truth in that, but Brexit has shown he doesnt care whether he is arguing what he believes, he will argue for whatever is most likely to give him power. Given a fair proportion of his backers are pretty extreme, that may end up being the path he takes. Maybe he pivots back to the centre, maybe he tacks to the right, I dont think anyone really knows what he will do, including himself.

    I struggle to see how that approach can be a good path for the country but maybe we will get lucky.
    There is convincing evidence that Trump used to be a pretty mainstream Democrat in political outlook.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited June 2019
    HYUFD said:

    alex. said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Artist said:

    67/33 to Johnson according to the YouGov members poll from a month ago. I can't see many/any switchers.

    I wouldn't take it for granted.

    Boris might only win 56-44 in extremis.
    Even the people enthusiastic about Hunt don't see, that enthusiastic about him. How does he challenge Boris's tight grip on the members? Careful caution?
    I think Boris needs to have a moment (get caught admitting he will never exit with No Deal) or gets accused by a former close ally of being really a Remainer who doesn't believe in Leave and only backed it to help with his leadership ambitions.
    If Hunt then tacked to full Leave with the competence to prove it and expose Boris in the hustings he could then still win with the members.
    Hunt has already said he would extend beyond October, he cannot get away from that and the members will not vote for that
    He's said he would if a deal is close and absolutely necessary and Boris will do exactly the same.
    Boris has said we will leave in October, Hunt has said he would extend.

    The only question in this race is whether Hunt can get ahead of Davis' 32% in 2005, in the last ConHome Tory members poll he was on 26% v Boris on 72%
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/06/next-tory-leader-run-offs-johnson-tops-them-javid-improves-his-position-and-stewart-is-bottom.html
    Just as a matter of interest, looking past Johnson winning a majority for potential no deal at a General Election, how do you see the course of the Government progressing after no deal actually happens? What do you personally feel the economic consequences of no deal will be and how will Johnson deal with them?
    Boris wants a FTA for GB, he is not bothered about the backstop, Deal or No Deal he will pivot to that once he gets a majority and can dispense with the DUP and Barnier and the EU would accept it, so No Deal would be temporary
    Couple of months? Does he care about the content of that FTA, or is just having it sufficient?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    edited June 2019
    Let’s just say Bozo miraculously gets a better deal there is simply no time left to put through all the legislation before the end of October .

    Putting the 31 October as a hard date means effectively no deal.

    I don’t expect much drama before the Autumn however even though the debates won’t change many members minds they could effect MPs .

    So currently Tory defections look more likely Autumn but a low chance some might walk immiediately after Bozo becomes PM.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    HYUFD said:
    Well, what does one expect from England's third-best University?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,854
    edited June 2019

    In news that might surprise some, Rory Stewart called on people to join the Conservative Party during his speech this evening.

    twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1141752656861339648

    I must admit, even as a bit of a fan of his, that was a good speech, and covered some interesting points.

    Will they be singing his name as Glasto next weekend?
    No. Ive been through it and apart from Jeremy only Oliver Letwin has the required 3 and 2 syllables
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Artist said:

    67/33 to Johnson according to the YouGov members poll from a month ago. I can't see many/any switchers.

    I wouldn't take it for granted.

    Boris might only win 56-44 in extremis.
    Even the people enthusiastic about Hunt don't see, that enthusiastic about him. How does he challenge Boris's tight grip on the members? Careful caution?
    I think Boris needs to have a moment (get caught admitting he will never exit with No Deal) or gets accused by a former close ally of being really a Remainer who doesn't believe in Leave and only backed it to help with his leadership ambitions.
    If Hunt then tacked to full Leave with the competence to prove it and expose Boris in the hustings he could then still win with the members.
    Hunt has already said he would extend beyond October, he cannot get away from that and the members will not vote for that
    He's said he would if a deal is close and absolutely necessary and Boris will do exactly the same.
    Yes, but Hunt has said it. Boris will say nothing and let others project into him.

    Empty vessel strategy. Much like May.
  • blueblueblueblue Posts: 875
    HYUFD said:
    Boris would also be Balliol's fourth PM, while Hunt would supply Magdalen's first.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,562
    Tabman said:

    In news that might surprise some, Rory Stewart called on people to join the Conservative Party during his speech this evening.

    twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1141752656861339648

    I must admit, even as a bit of a fan of his, that was a good speech, and covered some interesting points.

    Will they be singing his name as Glasto next weekend?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryb9Xs94WDM
    We have not seen the last. When Boris and his No Deal crap implodes, someone will need to lead his party and the country out of the abyss.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    blueblue said:

    HYUFD said:
    Boris would also be Balliol's fourth PM, while Hunt would supply Magdalen's first.
    Indeed, McMillan and Heath both Balliol since the War
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,523

    My position on the last two, assuming the next Conservative leader becomes next Prime Minister, is:

    Boris Johnson +1,134.33
    Jeremy Hunt +2,185.76

    If the next Conservative leader is not the next Prime Minister it gets more interesting.

    Well played.

    How interesting does it get?
    Depends who wins and who becomes next Prime Minister. Boris Johnson plus Ken Clarke is worth 9,577.84
    That's extremely free luxury cruise for two interesting.
    I'm more a three day minibreak in the Isle of Wight.

    But, still enjoyable.
    Don't missthe full monty Breakfast on the Redfunnel, marvelous though some cardiac risk.

    Best wishes to BJO with my cardiac colleagues btw
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,562
    I rate Rory very highly. But there are times when I think he could quite easily have got the part of 'I' in Withnail and I, if it had said "speaks up a bit more".

    For starters, Withnail wrecks the Penrith tea rooms iirc.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    edited June 2019
    blueblue said:

    HYUFD said:
    Boris would also be Balliol's fourth PM, while Hunt would supply Magdalen's first.
    Of the 55 PMs since Walpole, 27 went to Oxford, 14 to Cambridge, 20 to Eton, 7 to Harrow and 6 to Westminster.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_the_United_Kingdom_by_education

  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    I rate Rory very highly. But there are times when I think he could quite easily have got the part of 'I' in Withnail and I, if it had said "speaks up a bit more".

    For starters, Withnail wrecks the Penrith tea rooms iirc.

    He's more dessicated than Paul McGann. But Withnail did indeed misbehave in Penrith (filmed in Amersham I think).
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,740
    HYUFD said:
    Can't even write a grammatically correct sentence.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:
    Can't even write a grammatically correct sentence.
    Could you point out which word is the subject in yours, please?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989
    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:
    Can't even write a grammatically correct sentence.
    Deliberately to mimic Trump, in a small way?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,562
    Tabman said:

    I rate Rory very highly. But there are times when I think he could quite easily have got the part of 'I' in Withnail and I, if it had said "speaks up a bit more".

    For starters, Withnail wrecks the Penrith tea rooms iirc.

    He's more dessicated than Paul McGann. But Withnail did indeed misbehave in Penrith (filmed in Amersham I think).
    my withnail film book says filmed in a village near milton keynes.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,740
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:
    Can't even write a grammatically correct sentence.
    Could you point out which word is the subject in yours, please?
    Touche!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,562
    HYUFD said:
    :lol: "Huge congrats to Boris"! Gritted teeth doesn't begin to describe it.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Ruth Davidson not good at picking winners.

    Hope she’s not at Ascot.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,786
    HYUFD said:
    I have a feeling his wife's next column might not be quite so congratulatory.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,719
    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:
    Can't even write a grammatically correct sentence.
    Did you omit a pronoun? :lol:
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Ruth Davidson not good at picking winners.

    Hope she’s not at Ascot.

    https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1141797230539681799
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,245
    Best of luck BJO.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,306
    alex. said:

    kle4 said:

    I think we're already seeing signs of how Borisphobes will justify staying within the fold. It's like watching Labour moderates under Corbyn. Hopefully he will be a better leader than Corbyn.

    He will be.

    Take Brexit out of the equation, take his clownish persona out of the equation, politically he is a very moderate MP. He is far closer to Osborne/Cameron than the extremist he gets painted as or that Corbyn really is.
    There is a lot of truth in that, but Brexit has shown he doesnt care whether he is arguing what he believes, he will argue for whatever is most likely to give him power. Given a fair proportion of his backers are pretty extreme, that may end up being the path he takes. Maybe he pivots back to the centre, maybe he tacks to the right, I dont think anyone really knows what he will do, including himself.

    I struggle to see how that approach can be a good path for the country but maybe we will get lucky.
    There is convincing evidence that Trump used to be a pretty mainstream Democrat in political outlook.
    Yes, but he was snubbed by the Democrats, which may help to explain his subsequent animosity.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,887
    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    DavidL said:

    I’m going to be honest here. I thought Gavin Williamson was a pretentious prick with minimal ability and a ridiculous ego. But bloody hell, Frank Underwood eat your heart out. This has been an awesome campaign. Just awesome.

    Hunt is about to be arse wiped. Boris has won without being beholden to anyone (except Gavin). It puts him in as powerful a position as the Tories, as a minority party, can give him. If he can deliver Brexit the sky is the limit. He was not my choice, not even my second choice, but I feel a slight sliver of optimism. After 3 years of smacking my head against the wall with Theresa it feels good.

    Yep, very, very impressive.

    For the first time since 8th June 2017 it feels like someone is actually in control of events (even if they're not yet Prime Minister)
    Gavin Williamson is not yet PM?
    A good leader builds a good team. And Boris's team has been bloody good in this campaign so far...
    The spin is starting. Boris the leader and his great team.

    Complete Bullshit.

    No different to Theresa May. Same team.
    The big difference is that some people both here and abroad had a certain respect for Theresa May. Apart from Tory members is there anyone with a good word for Boris? I've not met any.
    Plenty of the Tories on here didn't have a good word for him but they've suddenly developed glassy eyed sickly grins as the Boris rapture comes upon them. Fair play to HYUFD, at least he was consistent on Boris through many slings and arrows.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Latest polls would give the Tories 87 seats.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    edited June 2019
    nico67 said:

    Let’s just say Bozo miraculously gets a better deal there is simply no time left to put through all the legislation before the end of October .

    Putting the 31 October as a hard date means effectively no deal.

    I don’t expect much drama before the Autumn however even though the debates won’t change many members minds they could effect MPs .

    So currently Tory defections look more likely Autumn but a low chance some might walk immiediately after Bozo becomes PM.

    If you were a defector and wanted maximum impact, you would walk on the day he becomes PM! This might well remove the Majority with the DUP. Some Tories might be deselected by the end of july, so have nothing to lose.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,403

    I rate Rory very highly. But there are times when I think he could quite easily have got the part of 'I' in Withnail and I, if it had said "speaks up a bit more".

    For starters, Withnail wrecks the Penrith tea rooms iirc.

    If we're going on looks, then Boris is at the opposite end of the scale. If he was on a beach then the Cetacean Research & Rescue Unit would be getting a lot of calls. ;)

    There's something else I'd say about Boris: he talks like a bluffer. I wonder if he's consciously or unconsciously tried to copy his hero's sometimes stuttering, hesitant speech, but whereas Churchill came across powerfully, Boris just seems like a bluffer - at least to me. Boris's speeches seem to lack power and conviction.

    (This might be unfair: we only get to hear the best of Churchill's speeches, whereas modern politicians are subjected to far more scrutiny of their words via the 24 hour news and Internet. I bet Churchill had duff speeches as well.)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,403
    AndyJS said:

    Latest polls would give the Tories 87 seats.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

    My first thought:
    That's a good, workable majority.
    Then:
    Oh.

    :smiley:
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Why didn't Hammond stand?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,462

    HYUFD said:
    :lol: "Huge congrats to Boris"! Gritted teeth doesn't begin to describe it.
    Gove should take a very large amount of responsibility for where we are today with Brexit. If he'd not knifed Boris in 2016, we might well have been spared May - and discovered three years earlier what Boris is truly made of.

    Gove, you pillock. And for what?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    edited June 2019
    AndyJS said:

    Latest polls would give the Tories 87 seats.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

    And Brexit Party 193, Tories plus Brexit Party combined on 280 and more than Labour on 238.

    Only Labour plus LDs plus SNP would have a majority
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,719

    AndyJS said:

    Latest polls would give the Tories 87 seats.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

    My first thought:
    That's a good, workable majority.
    Then:
    Oh.

    :smiley:
    I must confess to reading it the same way :lol:
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,719
    Ave_it said:

    Why didn't Hammond stand?

    Keeping his powder dry?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,609

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:
    Can't even write a grammatically correct sentence.
    Did you omit a pronoun? :lol:
    Very good! :lol:
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Sunil - for 2020 indeed if we have a GE now we get 60 seats max
  • SaltireSaltire Posts: 525
    A couple of questions, does anybody have any idea when they will anounce the result of the Brecon-Radnor recall petition? (It closed at 5pm today) And if a by-election is called will that affect the amount of coverage that can be given by TV to the Conservative (and Lib-Dem) leadership contests?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hunt = Bryan Gould

    Bryan Gould would have been an interesting leader for Labour, and if had won would have prevented Blair getting the opportunity. I always liked his style and politics, but with his sane Euroscepticism (he resigned from John Smiths front bench over Maastricht) would have taken Labour in a very different direction. He would have won in 97, but not the same landslide.
    Indeed - Bryan Gould was the man I always wanted to see as Labour leader. Very bright and such a lovely guy too. A moderniser of a very different ilk to Blair.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    Ave_it said:

    Why didn't Hammond stand?

    He would have been trounced that is why
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Hammond is the Geoffrey Howe 2019. Boris and hunt have no mandate CON out of office for 100 years
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,170

    alex. said:

    kle4 said:

    I think we're already seeing signs of how Borisphobes will justify staying within the fold. It's like watching Labour moderates under Corbyn. Hopefully he will be a better leader than Corbyn.

    He will be.

    Take Brexit out of the equation, take his clownish persona out of the equation, politically he is a very moderate MP. He is far closer to Osborne/Cameron than the extremist he gets painted as or that Corbyn really is.
    There is a lot of truth in that, but Brexit has shown he doesnt care whether he is arguing what he believes, he will argue for whatever is most likely to give him power. Given a fair proportion of his backers are pretty extreme, that may end up being the path he takes. Maybe he pivots back to the centre, maybe he tacks to the right, I dont think anyone really knows what he will do, including himself.

    I struggle to see how that approach can be a good path for the country but maybe we will get lucky.
    There is convincing evidence that Trump used to be a pretty mainstream Democrat in political outlook.
    Yes, but he was snubbed by the Democrats, which may help to explain his subsequent animosity.
    Is there any evidence he used to really be a mainstream Democrat?

    There's certainly evidence he used to be a racist asshat, and still is exactly what he always was.
    So quite a lot like Johnson
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Best wishes to BJO.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,609
    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Latest polls would give the Tories 87 seats.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

    And Brexit Party 193, Tories plus Brexit Party combined on 280 and more than Labour on 238.

    Only Labour plus LDs plus SNP would have a majority
    Which would mean 2nd Ref without a doubt.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Alastair I didn't realise you were a Tory? 😊
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,068
    AndyJS said:

    Latest polls would give the Tories 87 seats.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

    Yes, this is precisely why the last dice roll of Boris is correct. But a Gove challenge would have been superior in the members run off to forge the sword so to speak.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Ave_it said:

    Alastair I didn't realise you were a Tory? 😊

    That would be quite a plot twist.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,719
    Ave_it said:

    Hammond is the Geoffrey Howe 2019. Boris and hunt have no mandate CON out of office for 100 years

    In the short term? :lol:
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,023
    nichomar said:

    What is success? If it’s us leaving the EU then that, is my mind failure. Success for whom, those wanting middle income tax cuts? Or is it saving the Tory party?

    The EU (like the British state) only deserves to exist if it benefits its citizens.

    If Boris Johnson is able to make a success of the UK outside the EU, then everyone should be cheering.

    Now, the big question is whether he can. And we shall see.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    matt said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hunt = Bryan Gould

    Bryan Gould would have been an interesting leader for Labour, and if had won would have prevented Blair getting the opportunity. I always liked his style and politics, but with his sane Euroscepticism (he resigned from John Smiths front bench over Maastricht) would have taken Labour in a very different direction. He would have won in 97, but not the same landslide.
    Bryan got just 9%. That effectively ended his career. Will Hunt top that?
    He went back to NZ and made a difference didn’t he? Ended political career, yes but arguably did more good.
    The point is that Hunt needs to tread carefully. A heavy defeat could be crtically damaging.
    Maybe Hunt will surprise and land some serious punches?
    Or has someone been saving up release of a real scandal on Boris until now, the moment of truth....?
    Now that a "remainer" has been engineered into the second slot I think the membership will vote for Johnson whatever comes out now.

    We actually need a Brexiteer to take charge now, if Hunt were to win we would be right back to the May situation and all the leavers will just blame everything on Hunt really being a remainer.

    Although I can't see how he will do it I find myself in the odd situation of actually wanting Johnson to to get Brexit sorted successfully because if he doesn't we end up with a Corbyn government and I think that needs to be avoided at all costs.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,719
    Ave_it said:

    Sunil - for 2020 indeed if we have a GE now we get 60 seats max

    Boris to resign before 31/12/19?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,740

    nico67 said:

    Let’s just say Bozo miraculously gets a better deal there is simply no time left to put through all the legislation before the end of October .

    Putting the 31 October as a hard date means effectively no deal.

    I don’t expect much drama before the Autumn however even though the debates won’t change many members minds they could effect MPs .

    So currently Tory defections look more likely Autumn but a low chance some might walk immiediately after Bozo becomes PM.

    If you were a defector and wanted maximum impact, you would walk on the day he becomes PM! This might well remove the Majority with the DUP. Some Tories might be deselected by the end of july, so have nothing to lose.
    There would be a certain poetic justice in Johnson finally succeeding in becoming leader by shamelessly courting the Brexiteers, only to lose the government's majority through the Brexiteers deselecting their opponents.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    We will be joining Blackford and Soubry in the small party area of the chamber by then
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,609
    rcs1000 said:

    nichomar said:

    What is success? If it’s us leaving the EU then that, is my mind failure. Success for whom, those wanting middle income tax cuts? Or is it saving the Tory party?

    The EU (like the British state) only deserves to exist if it benefits its citizens.

    If Boris Johnson is able to make a success of the UK outside the EU, then everyone should be cheering.

    Now, the big question is whether he can. And we shall see.
    First of all he's got to find a way to make us leave the EU. I think he will struggle with that tbh.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Latest polls would give the Tories 87 seats.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

    And Brexit Party 193, Tories plus Brexit Party combined on 280 and more than Labour on 238.

    Only Labour plus LDs plus SNP would have a majority
    Which would mean 2nd Ref without a doubt.
    Quite possibly.

    Though I would not guarantee Remain would win it.

    What is clear is Boris is the Tories only chance of a majority and staying in power now, Hunt for all his qualities risks Nigel Farage becoming Leader of the Opposition to a Corbyn minority government with the Tories falling to third
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,403
    Hmmm. Whilst that's bad, I do wonder what she said above the line, and which you cannot quite see.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,609
    Chris said:

    nico67 said:

    Let’s just say Bozo miraculously gets a better deal there is simply no time left to put through all the legislation before the end of October .

    Putting the 31 October as a hard date means effectively no deal.

    I don’t expect much drama before the Autumn however even though the debates won’t change many members minds they could effect MPs .

    So currently Tory defections look more likely Autumn but a low chance some might walk immiediately after Bozo becomes PM.

    If you were a defector and wanted maximum impact, you would walk on the day he becomes PM! This might well remove the Majority with the DUP. Some Tories might be deselected by the end of july, so have nothing to lose.
    There would be a certain poetic justice in Johnson finally succeeding in becoming leader by shamelessly courting the Brexiteers, only to lose the government's majority through the Brexiteers deselecting their opponents.
    Irony indeed!

    Does anyone have a list of who has been selected and who is known to be at risk?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    edited June 2019
    There’s likely to be more tension and excitement at a WI bake sale than the Bozo v Hunt debates .

    The media are obviously pissed off that they didn’t get the Gove v Bozo final two . The problem is nothing Bozo can do gaff wise will change the dial .

    He could decapitate Bambi whilst at the same time behead a couple of audience members and the Membership death cult would call it high jinks, and Bozo is just being a Bozo .
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,740
    HYUFD said:

    Ave_it said:

    Why didn't Hammond stand?

    He would have been trounced that is why
    He failed the sanity test.

    He was found to be sane.
  • SirBenjaminSirBenjamin Posts: 238
    kamski said:



    mainstream Democrat

    racist asshat

    Let's not forget that, for well over a century, these two things were essentially one and the same...
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    People speculating its private francois saying that to her..... He must be v proud of his image he's created for himself....if it actually isnt.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    People speculating its private francois saying that to her..... He must be v proud of his image he's created for himself....if it actually isnt.
    I would have guessed Andrew Bridgen.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069

    Hmmm. Whilst that's bad, I do wonder what she said above the line, and which you cannot quite see.
    True..... The Too is a reply to something negative surely.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,523
    rcs1000 said:

    nichomar said:

    What is success? If it’s us leaving the EU then that, is my mind failure. Success for whom, those wanting middle income tax cuts? Or is it saving the Tory party?

    The EU (like the British state) only deserves to exist if it benefits its citizens.

    If Boris Johnson is able to make a success of the UK outside the EU, then everyone should be cheering.

    Now, the big question is whether he can. And we shall see.
    No, the big question is what is meant by success?

    Leavers are going to detect success in a cesspit, and Remainers going to see failure even on celestial clouds.

    Anyone expecting objective evaluation is deluded.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,609
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Latest polls would give the Tories 87 seats.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

    And Brexit Party 193, Tories plus Brexit Party combined on 280 and more than Labour on 238.

    Only Labour plus LDs plus SNP would have a majority
    Which would mean 2nd Ref without a doubt.
    Quite possibly.

    Though I would not guarantee Remain would win it.

    What is clear is Boris is the Tories only chance of a majority and staying in power now, Hunt for all his qualities risks Nigel Farage becoming Leader of the Opposition to a Corbyn minority government with the Tories falling to third
    All very possible. I certainly agree that a 2nd ref could easily end up endorsing Deal or No Deal.

    There are no good paths for the Tories from here... unless the EU suddenly decided to make a major concession. And really, why would they?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Hmmm. Whilst that's bad, I do wonder what she said above the line, and which you cannot quite see.
    True..... The Too is a reply to something negative surely.
    It can only be a reference to someone else who the sender doesn’t approve of.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    If labour weren't unfit for government I would support them
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,068
    isam said:

    What price is fair value that either Boris or Hunt will be next PM?

    A very good question !
  • SirBenjaminSirBenjamin Posts: 238
    rcs1000 said:



    If Boris Johnson is able to make a success of the UK outside the EU, then everyone should be cheering.

    So many people now have far too much invested tribally in 'Remain' for that to happen.

    Nobody likes to lose and nobody likes to see the winner actually being not-all-that-bad - until the point at which they switch allegiances, obviously.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,919

    People speculating its private francois saying that to her..... He must be v proud of his image he's created for himself....if it actually isnt.
    I would have guessed Andrew Bridgen.
    Sad to think but there are several other candidates as well
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Scott_P said:

    Ruth Davidson not good at picking winners.

    Hope she’s not at Ascot.

    https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1141797230539681799
    Hmm... rarely wise to let teenage interns use your Twitter login.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,023

    Hey Robert, you understand economics, can you explain this chart to those of who don't.

    https://twitter.com/Jim_Edwards/status/1141713373652017153

    The G7 average is interesting, but I'd like to see the lines for each G7 country individually.
    The OECD numbers have us well ahead of Japan, at a 0.3% annual growth over the last three years. (Japan is -0.3%.) However, we lag Italy (0.9%), France (1.8%), Germany (1.9%), Canada (2.2%) and the US (3.8%).
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,719

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Latest polls would give the Tories 87 seats.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

    And Brexit Party 193, Tories plus Brexit Party combined on 280 and more than Labour on 238.

    Only Labour plus LDs plus SNP would have a majority
    Which would mean 2nd Ref without a doubt.
    "Bring 'em on! I'd prefer a straight fight to all this sneaking around!"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    edited June 2019

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Latest polls would give the Tories 87 seats.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

    And Brexit Party 193, Tories plus Brexit Party combined on 280 and more than Labour on 238.

    Only Labour plus LDs plus SNP would have a majority
    Which would mean 2nd Ref without a doubt.
    Quite possibly.

    Though I would not guarantee Remain would win it.

    What is clear is Boris is the Tories only chance of a majority and staying in power now, Hunt for all his qualities risks Nigel Farage becoming Leader of the Opposition to a Corbyn minority government with the Tories falling to third
    All very possible. I certainly agree that a 2nd ref could easily end up endorsing Deal or No Deal.

    There are no good paths for the Tories from here... unless the EU suddenly decided to make a major concession. And really, why would they?
    The Tories need a majority to deliver a FTA for GB, which is what Boris really wants, the NI backstop does not bother him but the DUP will block any agreement with the backstop.

    If Corbyn becomes PM propped up by the SNP and LDs with Remain scraping home in EUref2 though do not rule out Farage following him as PM at the subsequent general election
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Chris said:

    nico67 said:

    Let’s just say Bozo miraculously gets a better deal there is simply no time left to put through all the legislation before the end of October .

    Putting the 31 October as a hard date means effectively no deal.

    I don’t expect much drama before the Autumn however even though the debates won’t change many members minds they could effect MPs .

    So currently Tory defections look more likely Autumn but a low chance some might walk immiediately after Bozo becomes PM.

    If you were a defector and wanted maximum impact, you would walk on the day he becomes PM! This might well remove the Majority with the DUP. Some Tories might be deselected by the end of july, so have nothing to lose.
    There would be a certain poetic justice in Johnson finally succeeding in becoming leader by shamelessly courting the Brexiteers, only to lose the government's majority through the Brexiteers deselecting their opponents.
    Irony indeed!

    Does anyone have a list of who has been selected and who is known to be at risk?
    Philip Lee & Dominic Greave are.both facing constitiency parties opposed to them but they have not been formally deselected when i checked the media yesterday.. There are others who have walked already like Nick Boles.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,023
    alex. said:

    kle4 said:

    I think we're already seeing signs of how Borisphobes will justify staying within the fold. It's like watching Labour moderates under Corbyn. Hopefully he will be a better leader than Corbyn.

    He will be.

    Take Brexit out of the equation, take his clownish persona out of the equation, politically he is a very moderate MP. He is far closer to Osborne/Cameron than the extremist he gets painted as or that Corbyn really is.
    There is a lot of truth in that, but Brexit has shown he doesnt care whether he is arguing what he believes, he will argue for whatever is most likely to give him power. Given a fair proportion of his backers are pretty extreme, that may end up being the path he takes. Maybe he pivots back to the centre, maybe he tacks to the right, I dont think anyone really knows what he will do, including himself.

    I struggle to see how that approach can be a good path for the country but maybe we will get lucky.
    There is convincing evidence that Trump used to be a pretty mainstream Democrat in political outlook.
    I think the issue with Trump - above all - is the way he behaves.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2019

    kle4 said:

    I think we're already seeing signs of how Borisphobes will justify staying within the fold. It's like watching Labour moderates under Corbyn. Hopefully he will be a better leader than Corbyn.

    He will be.

    Take Brexit out of the equation, take his clownish persona out of the equation, politically he is a very moderate MP. He is far closer to Osborne/Cameron than the extremist he gets painted as or that Corbyn really is.
    There is a lot of truth in that, but Brexit has shown he doesnt care whether he is arguing what he believes, he will argue for whatever is most likely to give him power. Given a fair proportion of his backers are pretty extreme, that may end up being the path he takes. Maybe he pivots back to the centre, maybe he tacks to the right, I dont think anyone really knows what he will do, including himself.

    I struggle to see how that approach can be a good path for the country but maybe we will get lucky.
    He doesn't need more power now though. He will be PM and on the clock. If he prevaricates he will lose it.

    The countries and Boris's interests will be 100% aligned. Make a success of this.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Ave_it said:

    If labour weren't unfit for government I would support them

    Lets have a Ken Clarke led National Government!
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Fun Game Alert

    Go through Betfair and look at the lowest price a person was priced at in the Con Next Leader market, find the most unbelievable low.

    For me it was the 51.58 pounds sterling matched on Ruth Davidson at, hold onto your hat, EVENS.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Anyone beat that?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,321

    Ave_it said:

    If labour weren't unfit for government I would support them

    Lets have a Ken Clarke led National Government!
    As long as it's not this nation...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,523
    rcs1000 said:

    Hey Robert, you understand economics, can you explain this chart to those of who don't.

    https://twitter.com/Jim_Edwards/status/1141713373652017153

    The G7 average is interesting, but I'd like to see the lines for each G7 country individually.
    The OECD numbers have us well ahead of Japan, at a 0.3% annual growth over the last three years. (Japan is -0.3%.) However, we lag Italy (0.9%), France (1.8%), Germany (1.9%), Canada (2.2%) and the US (3.8%).
    How does that compare at per capita GDP? as an expanding population while Japan is contracting surely we move down the table.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,734
    rcs1000 said:

    alex. said:

    kle4 said:

    I think we're already seeing signs of how Borisphobes will justify staying within the fold. It's like watching Labour moderates under Corbyn. Hopefully he will be a better leader than Corbyn.

    He will be.

    Take Brexit out of the equation, take his clownish persona out of the equation, politically he is a very moderate MP. He is far closer to Osborne/Cameron than the extremist he gets painted as or that Corbyn really is.
    There is a lot of truth in that, but Brexit has shown he doesnt care whether he is arguing what he believes, he will argue for whatever is most likely to give him power. Given a fair proportion of his backers are pretty extreme, that may end up being the path he takes. Maybe he pivots back to the centre, maybe he tacks to the right, I dont think anyone really knows what he will do, including himself.

    I struggle to see how that approach can be a good path for the country but maybe we will get lucky.
    There is convincing evidence that Trump used to be a pretty mainstream Democrat in political outlook.
    I think the issue with Trump - above all - is the way he behaves.
    It is cumulative, if Trump behaved badly but was competent and consistent some would forgive the behaviour. It is the mix of disgraceful behaviour, gross incompetence, inconsistency and narcissism that unsurprisingly makes him unpopular with most.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,719

    Ave_it said:

    Alastair I didn't realise you were a Tory? 😊

    That would be quite a plot twist.
    "Chancellor Palpatine, I didn't realise you were a Dark Lord of the Sith!"
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Alistair said:

    Fun Game Alert

    Go through Betfair and look at the lowest price a person was priced at in the Con Next Leader market, find the most unbelievable low.

    For me it was the 51.58 pounds sterling matched on Ruth Davidson at, hold onto your hat, EVENS.

    The gambling industry wouldn’t survive without fools.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    David Davis being backed at 1.01 was a palp clearly.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069

    People speculating its private francois saying that to her..... He must be v proud of his image he's created for himself....if it actually isnt.
    I would have guessed Andrew Bridgen.
    Yup, the chuckle brothers of doom
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,068
    Alistair said:

    Fun Game Alert

    Go through Betfair and look at the lowest price a person was priced at in the Con Next Leader market, find the most unbelievable low.

    For me it was the 51.58 pounds sterling matched on Ruth Davidson at, hold onto your hat, EVENS.

    This is why the lay everyone strategy is so so good when a contest is a long way out.
This discussion has been closed.