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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Peterborough Chronicle. About that by-election

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  • RobDRobD Posts: 48,539
    Jonathan said:

    @Byronic How are you doing Sean? Woman on the tube yesterday was reading one of your books, thought of you.

    Hasn’t it been established that they aren’t the same?
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Jonathan said:

    @Byronic How are you doing Sean? Woman on the tube yesterday was reading one of your books, thought of you.

    I don't know whether to be flattered by this constant comparison, or appalled. But thanks,
  • RobDRobD Posts: 48,539

    Byronic said:

    TheJezziah:

    "Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist."

    +++++

    Labour are the only party, apart from the BNP, to be officially investigated for racism by the EHRC. The Labour party is riddled with racism. Denying this is futile. It is a racist party, led by a racist, who is, in turn, aided by racists.

    Look at this thread and how Labour, Corbyn and new MP Lisa Forbes are already drowning in antisemitism claims.

    Now imagine Boris as leader and write the Labour spin lines against him on the same issues. It's too easy. That is why (in my view) Boris will not be elected. Even this morning's court case dismissal said what? -- that you can't sue Boris for lying. The attack ads write themselves.
    Parties are going to run attack ads based on the failed lawsuit?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 24,718
    edited June 2019

    Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist.

    What are you talking about putting legitimate concerns in quotation marks? Did I use that term? Is this fake news? What's going on?

    And as for "Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry" at what point does it become Labour bigotry or are Labour always and everywhere exempt from being bigots themselves.

    I think that latter mindset speaks volumes about the left. You are so convinced that you are on the side of the right that under no circumstances can you entertain the possibility that Labour people (Brown in that instance, Corbyn always) could be wrong. It is not bigotry in your mind it is somehow a corruption of their perfect behaviour by outside influences. Very telling.

    Oh and fuck off yourself if we're going down that path.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    TheJezziah:

    "Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist."

    +++++

    Labour are the only party, apart from the BNP, to be officially investigated for racism by the EHRC. The Labour party is riddled with racism. Denying this is futile. It is a racist party, led by a racist, who is, in turn, aided by racists.

    Look at this thread and how Labour, Corbyn and new MP Lisa Forbes are already drowning in antisemitism claims.

    Now imagine Boris as leader and write the Labour spin lines against him on the same issues. It's too easy. That is why (in my view) Boris will not be elected. Even this morning's court case dismissal said what? -- that you can't sue Boris for lying. The attack ads write themselves.
    That's a very good point. Boris is a big target. Trouble ahead if he wins. But, as I have said before, the Tories are now in such a bind - 300k down in the casino, the house already gambled away - they might just have to roll the dice anyhow.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 5,407
    Much accusation and counter accusation of racism this afternoon.

    As I said this morning I would have voted Labour in Peterborough to keep an extreme No Dealer from Parliament. The balance of opinion is finely balanced in Parliament, and the Lib Dems started on 3% - they were never going to win.

    But in (theoretically) voting for Labour, I am giving temporary succour to the Pol Potters and Jewbaiters who now lead that party.

    It’s a depressing situation, but after all, we had to ally with the Soviets to beat the Nazis.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Byronic said:

    Jonathan said:

    @Byronic How are you doing Sean? Woman on the tube yesterday was reading one of your books, thought of you.

    I don't know whether to be flattered by this constant comparison, or appalled. But thanks,

    You are Richard the Lionheart and I claim my 5 pence.

  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    Byronic said:

    TheJezziah:

    "Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist."

    +++++

    Labour are the only party, apart from the BNP, to be officially investigated for racism by the EHRC. The Labour party is riddled with racism. Denying this is futile. It is a racist party, led by a racist, who is, in turn, aided by racists.

    They haven't investigated UKIP. Clearly a flawed method of identifying who is or isn't racist.

    Although I hear they are looking at the Conservatives. Only for Islamophobia though... what about Go home vans, Windrush etc.

    The Tories have been inflicting their racism on minorities for years, it is why they vote against the Conservatives in such big numbers.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 11,403

    felix said:



    A party which is by no means perfect but not in anything like the same level of denial.

    Why do you think the Tories have such a terrible vote return from BAME?

    And no it isn't because the minorities are evil....
    It's a fair point. Fewer and fewer ethnic minority voters are happy to choose Conservative, while they are happy, presumably with the exception of Jews, to vote Labour. It probably isn't overt racism, although it doesn't the help Tory inclusiveness image when the PM apparent calls blacks "picaninnies" and says they have lower IQs. It's a more a sense of feeling unwanted, I suspect.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    TOPPING said:

    Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist.

    What are you talking about putting legitimate concerns in quotation marks? Did I use that term? Is this fake news? What's going on?

    And as for "Labout pandering to Conservative bigotry" at what point does it become Labour bigotry or are Labour always and everywhere exempt from being bigots themselves.

    I think that latter mindset speaks volumes about the left. You are so convinced that you are on the side of the right that under no circumstances can you entertain the possibility that Labour people (Brown in that instance, Corbyn always) could be wrong. It is not bigotry in your mind it is somehow a corruption of their perfect behaviour by outside influences. Very telling.

    Oh and fuck off yourself if we're going down that path.
    Jezziah is the shouting, leering, screaming, abuse-hurling, spittle-flecked face of Momentum. They need to look at themselves in the mirror, like Caliban, and pause. But they won't, and it will cost them, in time.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,727
    edited June 2019

    The Tories have been inflicting their racism on minorities for years, it is why they vote against the Conservatives in such big numbers.

    It was particularly bad from 1997 to 2010, I understand. 'British jobs for British workers', the Windrush scandal, racially biased stop and search...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 48,539

    The Tories have been inflicting their racism on minorities for years, it is why they vote against the Conservatives in such big numbers.

    It was particularly bad from 1997 to 2010, I understand.
    I thought you were an educated man, Richard. The Tories were in power during that period.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Much accusation and counter accusation of racism this afternoon.

    As I said this morning I would have voted Labour in Peterborough to keep an extreme No Dealer from Parliament. The balance of opinion is finely balanced in Parliament, and the Lib Dems started on 3% - they were never going to win.

    But in (theoretically) voting for Labour, I am giving temporary succour to the Pol Potters and Jewbaiters who now lead that party.

    It’s a depressing situation, but after all, we had to ally with the Soviets to beat the Nazis.

    Nicely put. It is indeed depressing.

    The next important question is: could you ever see yourself voting for Corbyn in a GE, when it really matters?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    TOPPING said:

    Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist.

    What are you talking about putting legitimate concerns in quotation marks? Did I use that term? Is this fake news? What's going on?

    And as for "Labout pandering to Conservative bigotry" at what point does it become Labour bigotry or are Labour always and everywhere exempt from being bigots themselves.

    I think that latter mindset speaks volumes about the left. You are so convinced that you are on the side of the right that under no circumstances can you entertain the possibility that Labour people (Brown in that instance, Corbyn always) could be wrong. It is not bigotry in your mind it is somehow a corruption of their perfect behaviour by outside influences. Very telling.

    Oh and fuck off yourself if we're going down that path.

    not enough white faces... not even England anymore...

    'legitimate concerns'

    Blowing that dog whistle on immigration whilst pointing at your opponents and calling them racist is a fun double act but the reason it completely fails is because it is laughable hypocrisy.

    It was Labour trying to win (or keep) racist votes from the Tories, hence pandering to Conservative bigotry.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,727
    I do love this argument that Labour governments pandering to racism proves that the Tory Party is racist. That's one of the best ever!
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611

    I do love this argument that Labour governments pandering to racism proves that the Tory Party is racist. That's one of the best ever!

    Labour were trying to compete (but obviously couldn't) with the Conservatives on dog whistling...

    Don't think this excuses Labour at the time either, well to me anyway.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 24,718
    edited June 2019

    TOPPING said:

    Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist.

    What are you talking about putting legitimate concerns in quotation marks? Did I use that term? Is this fake news? What's going on?

    And as for "Labout pandering to Conservative bigotry" at what point does it become Labour bigotry or are Labour always and everywhere exempt from being bigots themselves.

    I think that latter mindset speaks volumes about the left. You are so convinced that you are on the side of the right that under no circumstances can you entertain the possibility that Labour people (Brown in that instance, Corbyn always) could be wrong. It is not bigotry in your mind it is somehow a corruption of their perfect behaviour by outside influences. Very telling.

    Oh and fuck off yourself if we're going down that path.

    not enough white faces... not even England anymore...

    'legitimate concerns'

    Blowing that dog whistle on immigration whilst pointing at your opponents and calling them racist is a fun double act but the reason it completely fails is because it is laughable hypocrisy.

    It was Labour trying to win (or keep) racist votes from the Tories, hence pandering to Conservative bigotry.
    Was that in one of the links I posted (didn't read through them all you know how it is with google links)?

    Otherwise what are you talking about? Where is it stated "not enough white faces"?

    And as for Labour not being racist and are only being racist in order to out-racist the racist Conservatives? That's some tangle you've got yourself into, there, buster.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,727

    I do love this argument that Labour governments pandering to racism proves that the Tory Party is racist. That's one of the best ever!

    Labour were trying to compete (but obviously couldn't) with the Conservatives on dog whistling...

    Don't think this excuses Labour at the time either, well to me anyway.
    Uh-huh.

    So why do you not reverse this argument and conclude that Theresa May was trying to compete with Labour on dog whistling? After all, 'British jobs for British workers' was about as loud a whistle as any dog has ever heard.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    FF43 said:

    felix said:



    A party which is by no means perfect but not in anything like the same level of denial.

    Why do you think the Tories have such a terrible vote return from BAME?

    And no it isn't because the minorities are evil....
    It's a fair point. Fewer and fewer ethnic minority voters are happy to choose Conservative, while they are happy, presumably with the exception of Jews, to vote Labour. It probably isn't overt racism, although it doesn't the help Tory inclusiveness image when the PM apparent calls blacks "picaninnies" and says they have lower IQs. It's a more a sense of feeling unwanted, I suspect.
    The converse of this is that there may come a time when white Britons start "voting white", rather than for any other reason, as society polarises. That would be terrible for Labour, in the long term, as they are perceived as the BAME party.

    You might think it couldn't happen here, but many experts scoffed and said it couldn't happen in America. Until it did. And Trump was elected.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    FF43 said:

    felix said:



    A party which is by no means perfect but not in anything like the same level of denial.

    Why do you think the Tories have such a terrible vote return from BAME?

    And no it isn't because the minorities are evil....
    It's a fair point. Fewer and fewer ethnic minority voters are happy to choose Conservative, while they are happy, presumably with the exception of Jews, to vote Labour. It probably isn't overt racism, although it doesn't the help Tory inclusiveness image when the PM apparent calls blacks "picaninnies" and says they have lower IQs. It's a more a sense of feeling unwanted, I suspect.
    They are the most likely group to vote against racism and they vote overwhelmingly against the Conservatives and for Labour.

    Lots of angry white right wing men with 'legitimate concerns' might have a different opinion about which party is racist but I think that is because it doesn't share their 'legitimate concerns'
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,912
    Byronic said:

    Jonathan said:

    @Byronic How are you doing Sean? Woman on the tube yesterday was reading one of your books, thought of you.

    I don't know whether to be flattered by this constant comparison, or appalled. But thanks,
    @SeanT has a very distinct writing style. Your writing style is extremely similar. Which is why some people think you and he are the same person. @rcs1000 informs us that @SeanT 's IP address when he was posting here is in a different part of London than the one you are posting from. So you are either two different people with a similar style or the same person posting from a different location than before. Lacking any conclusive evidence to the contrary I will treat you as if you are a different person as you claim, tho my sense of humour will demand occasional interjections about Clark Kent and hair partings... :)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 48,539
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist.

    What are you talking about putting legitimate concerns in quotation marks? Did I use that term? Is this fake news? What's going on?

    And as for "Labout pandering to Conservative bigotry" at what point does it become Labour bigotry or are Labour always and everywhere exempt from being bigots themselves.

    I think that latter mindset speaks volumes about the left. You are so convinced that you are on the side of the right that under no circumstances can you entertain the possibility that Labour people (Brown in that instance, Corbyn always) could be wrong. It is not bigotry in your mind it is somehow a corruption of their perfect behaviour by outside influences. Very telling.

    Oh and fuck off yourself if we're going down that path.

    not enough white faces... not even England anymore...

    'legitimate concerns'

    Blowing that dog whistle on immigration whilst pointing at your opponents and calling them racist is a fun double act but the reason it completely fails is because it is laughable hypocrisy.

    It was Labour trying to win (or keep) racist votes from the Tories, hence pandering to Conservative bigotry.
    Was that in one of the links I posted (didn't read through them all you know how it is with google links)?

    Otherwise what are you talking about? Where is it stated "not enough white faces"?

    And as for Labour not being racist and are only being racist in order to out-racist the racist Conservatives? That's some tangle you've got yourself into, there, buster.
    Not surprising when they use the same logic to insist anti-semitism in their own party is okay because the Tories are islamophobic. .
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611

    I do love this argument that Labour governments pandering to racism proves that the Tory Party is racist. That's one of the best ever!

    Labour were trying to compete (but obviously couldn't) with the Conservatives on dog whistling...

    Don't think this excuses Labour at the time either, well to me anyway.
    Uh-huh.

    So why do you not reverse this argument and conclude that Theresa May was trying to compete with Labour on dog whistling? After all, 'British jobs for British workers' was about as loud a whistle as any dog has ever heard.
    In 2015 Ed had gone and Jeremy Corbyn was attending refugee welcome rallies...

    The only thing she had to left to compete with was the racist desires of Tory voters, no sudden change.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 48,539
    Scott_P said:
    In the end I pitied her. Not a good place for a PM to be.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    viewcode said:

    Byronic said:

    Jonathan said:

    @Byronic How are you doing Sean? Woman on the tube yesterday was reading one of your books, thought of you.

    I don't know whether to be flattered by this constant comparison, or appalled. But thanks,
    @SeanT has a very distinct writing style. Your writing style is extremely similar. Which is why some people think you and he are the same person. @rcs1000 informs us that @SeanT 's IP address when he was posting here is in a different part of London than the one you are posting from. So you are either two different people with a similar style or the same person posting from a different location than before. Lacking any conclusive evidence to the contrary I will treat you as if you are a different person as you claim, tho my sense of humour will demand occasional interjections about Clark Kent and hair partings... :)
    Hah. Fair enough.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2019

    Much accusation and counter accusation of racism this afternoon.

    As I said this morning I would have voted Labour in Peterborough to keep an extreme No Dealer from Parliament. The balance of opinion is finely balanced in Parliament, and the Lib Dems started on 3% - they were never going to win.

    But in (theoretically) voting for Labour, I am giving temporary succour to the Pol Potters and Jewbaiters who now lead that party.

    It’s a depressing situation, but after all, we had to ally with the Soviets to beat the Nazis.

    Funny that we spend so much time talking about racism when the UK is one of the least racist countries in the world. That's why migrants are desperate to get here from nominally wealthier countries like France and Italy where a lot of genuine racism still exists.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 24,718

    FF43 said:

    felix said:



    A party which is by no means perfect but not in anything like the same level of denial.

    Why do you think the Tories have such a terrible vote return from BAME?

    And no it isn't because the minorities are evil....
    It's a fair point. Fewer and fewer ethnic minority voters are happy to choose Conservative, while they are happy, presumably with the exception of Jews, to vote Labour. It probably isn't overt racism, although it doesn't the help Tory inclusiveness image when the PM apparent calls blacks "picaninnies" and says they have lower IQs. It's a more a sense of feeling unwanted, I suspect.
    They are the most likely group to vote against racism and they vote overwhelmingly against the Conservatives and for Labour.

    Lots of angry white right wing men with 'legitimate concerns' might have a different opinion about which party is racist but I think that is because it doesn't share their 'legitimate concerns'
    Ahhh found it!! Your very own Ed Milliband, arch Tory, said: "Let me be clear. It is not prejudiced to be concerned about immigration," and didn't want the nasties to exploit peoples' legitimate concerns about immigration.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 17,617

    Michael Gove is drifting in the betting. I do not know why, and am too tied up right now to look for reasons but mention it in case someone is about to lump on; perhaps it is nothing. (The Leadsom arb is back btw.)

    Silly Ollie Letwin has come out for Gove so that could explain it,,,
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist.

    What are you talking about putting legitimate concerns in quotation marks? Did I use that term? Is this fake news? What's going on?

    And as for "Labout pandering to Conservative bigotry" at what point does it become Labour bigotry or are Labour always and everywhere exempt from being bigots themselves.

    I think that latter mindset speaks volumes about the left. You are so convinced that you are on the side of the right that under no circumstances can you entertain the possibility that Labour people (Brown in that instance, Corbyn always) could be wrong. It is not bigotry in your mind it is somehow a corruption of their perfect behaviour by outside influences. Very telling.

    Oh and fuck off yourself if we're going down that path.

    not enough white faces... not even England anymore...

    'legitimate concerns'

    Blowing that dog whistle on immigration whilst pointing at your opponents and calling them racist is a fun double act but the reason it completely fails is because it is laughable hypocrisy.

    It was Labour trying to win (or keep) racist votes from the Tories, hence pandering to Conservative bigotry.
    Was that in one of the links I posted (didn't read through them all you know how it is with google links)?

    Otherwise what are you talking about? Where is it stated "not enough white faces"?

    And as for Labour not being racist and are only being racist in order to out-racist the racist Conservatives? That's some tangle you've got yourself into, there, buster.
    You regularly seem to struggle to keep up, were you distracted by a minority passing by who angered you by living here or something?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 12,390
    Good thread header from Alastair. Well well! Seems like UKIP all over again.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 18,426

    I see Jess Phillips and Wes Streeting have slapped ass faces this morning.

    Are you proud of being only the second party - after the BNP - being formally investigated for racism - and by an institution Labour set up?
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    edited June 2019
    AndyJS said:

    Much accusation and counter accusation of racism this afternoon.

    As I said this morning I would have voted Labour in Peterborough to keep an extreme No Dealer from Parliament. The balance of opinion is finely balanced in Parliament, and the Lib Dems started on 3% - they were never going to win.

    But in (theoretically) voting for Labour, I am giving temporary succour to the Pol Potters and Jewbaiters who now lead that party.

    It’s a depressing situation, but after all, we had to ally with the Soviets to beat the Nazis.

    Funny that we spend so much time talking about racism when the UK is one of the least racist countries in the world. That's why migrants are desperate to get here from nominally wealthier countries like France and Italy.
    France and (certainly) Italy are not nominally wealthier than the UK. In fact Italy is quite significantly poorer.

    http://tinyurl.com/nfq7n95

  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    TOPPING said:

    FF43 said:

    felix said:



    A party which is by no means perfect but not in anything like the same level of denial.

    Why do you think the Tories have such a terrible vote return from BAME?

    And no it isn't because the minorities are evil....
    It's a fair point. Fewer and fewer ethnic minority voters are happy to choose Conservative, while they are happy, presumably with the exception of Jews, to vote Labour. It probably isn't overt racism, although it doesn't the help Tory inclusiveness image when the PM apparent calls blacks "picaninnies" and says they have lower IQs. It's a more a sense of feeling unwanted, I suspect.
    They are the most likely group to vote against racism and they vote overwhelmingly against the Conservatives and for Labour.

    Lots of angry white right wing men with 'legitimate concerns' might have a different opinion about which party is racist but I think that is because it doesn't share their 'legitimate concerns'
    Ahhh found it!! Your very own Ed Milliband, arch Tory, said: "Let me be clear. It is not prejudiced to be concerned about immigration," and didn't want the nasties to exploit peoples' legitimate concerns about immigration.
    Just name checked Ed above your post, his attempts to keep up with the prejudice of the Tories is pretty shameful.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    @AndyJS Letwin has endorsed Gove BTW, I think by tweet

    Thanks.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Byronic said:

    AndyJS said:

    Much accusation and counter accusation of racism this afternoon.

    As I said this morning I would have voted Labour in Peterborough to keep an extreme No Dealer from Parliament. The balance of opinion is finely balanced in Parliament, and the Lib Dems started on 3% - they were never going to win.

    But in (theoretically) voting for Labour, I am giving temporary succour to the Pol Potters and Jewbaiters who now lead that party.

    It’s a depressing situation, but after all, we had to ally with the Soviets to beat the Nazis.

    Funny that we spend so much time talking about racism when the UK is one of the least racist countries in the world. That's why migrants are desperate to get here from nominally wealthier countries like France and Italy.
    France and (certainly) Italy are not nominally wealthier than the UK. In fact Italy is quite significantly poorer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
    France is according to most data.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,146
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 24,718

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist.

    What are you talking about putting legitimate concerns in quotation marks? Did I use that term? Is this fake news? What's going on?

    And as for "Labout pandering to Conservative bigotry" at what point does it become Labour bigotry or are Labour always and everywhere exempt from being bigots themselves.

    I think that latter mindset speaks volumes about the left. You are so convinced that you are on the side of the right that under no circumstances can you entertain the possibility that Labour people (Brown in that instance, Corbyn always) could be wrong. It is not bigotry in your mind it is somehow a corruption of their perfect behaviour by outside influences. Very telling.

    Oh and fuck off yourself if we're going down that path.

    not enough white faces... not even England anymore...

    'legitimate concerns'

    Blowing that dog whistle on immigration whilst pointing at your opponents and calling them racist is a fun double act but the reason it completely fails is because it is laughable hypocrisy.

    It was Labour trying to win (or keep) racist votes from the Tories, hence pandering to Conservative bigotry.
    Was that in one of the links I posted (didn't read through them all you know how it is with google links)?

    Otherwise what are you talking about? Where is it stated "not enough white faces"?

    And as for Labour not being racist and are only being racist in order to out-racist the racist Conservatives? That's some tangle you've got yourself into, there, buster.
    You regularly seem to struggle to keep up, were you distracted by a minority passing by who angered you by living here or something?
    Yes that is exactly right. "A minority".

    "A minority". Straight out of Love Thy Neighbour.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    MIchael Gove has drawn level with Jeremy Hunt with 33 backers each.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    AndyJS said:

    Byronic said:

    AndyJS said:

    Much accusation and counter accusation of racism this afternoon.

    As I said this morning I would have voted Labour in Peterborough to keep an extreme No Dealer from Parliament. The balance of opinion is finely balanced in Parliament, and the Lib Dems started on 3% - they were never going to win.

    But in (theoretically) voting for Labour, I am giving temporary succour to the Pol Potters and Jewbaiters who now lead that party.

    It’s a depressing situation, but after all, we had to ally with the Soviets to beat the Nazis.

    Funny that we spend so much time talking about racism when the UK is one of the least racist countries in the world. That's why migrants are desperate to get here from nominally wealthier countries like France and Italy.
    France and (certainly) Italy are not nominally wealthier than the UK. In fact Italy is quite significantly poorer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
    France is according to most data.
    I've just given you the data. France is poorer (nominally) on two of the three lists. Italy is quite a lot poorer on all three lists. So you are wrong in saying they are nominally wealthier.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 48,539

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist.

    What are you talking about putting legitimate concerns in quotation marks? Did I use that term? Is this fake news? What's going on?

    And as for "Labout pandering to Conservative bigotry" at what point does it become Labour bigotry or are Labour always and everywhere exempt from being bigots themselves.

    I think that latter mindset speaks volumes about the left. You are so convinced that you are on the side of the right that under no circumstances can you entertain the possibility that Labour people (Brown in that instance, Corbyn always) could be wrong. It is not bigotry in your mind it is somehow a corruption of their perfect behaviour by outside influences. Very telling.

    Oh and fuck off yourself if we're going down that path.

    not enough white faces... not even England anymore...

    'legitimate concerns'

    Blowing that dog whistle on immigration whilst pointing at your opponents and calling them racist is a fun double act but the reason it completely fails is because it is laughable hypocrisy.

    It was Labour trying to win (or keep) racist votes from the Tories, hence pandering to Conservative bigotry.
    Was that in one of the links I posted (didn't read through them all you know how it is with google links)?

    Otherwise what are you talking about? Where is it stated "not enough white faces"?

    And as for Labour not being racist and are only being racist in order to out-racist the racist Conservatives? That's some tangle you've got yourself into, there, buster.
    You regularly seem to struggle to keep up, were you distracted by a minority passing by who angered you by living here or something?
    @TOPPING -- I hadn’t realised you too were racist Tory scum. We should hang out some time. :D
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 15,029
    Cyclefree said:

    I see Jess Phillips and Wes Streeting have slapped ass faces this morning.

    Are you proud of being only the second party - after the BNP - being formally investigated for racism - and by an institution Labour set up?
    Cyclefree said:

    I see Jess Phillips and Wes Streeting have slapped ass faces this morning.

    Are you proud of being only the second party - after the BNP - being formally investigated for racism - and by an institution Labour set up?
    Independent research says Labour is less Antisemitic than other parties though.

    I was ashamed of the blatant Antisemitism of Alistair Campbell and Blairs Michael Howard posters.

    Funnily enough i cant remember you mentioning them.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,243
    edited June 2019

    Leave secured 60.9% of the vote in Peterborough in 2016 and only 51% of the vote in Peterborough in 2019

    Labour are not a Remain party.

    Corbyn is a smarter operator than many give him credit for. His well reported slapping down of Thornberry's support for a 2nd ref was well timed. It may not have changed many votes but in a tight contest like Peterborough it still matters.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,727
    edited June 2019

    In 2015 Ed had gone and Jeremy Corbyn was attending refugee welcome rallies...

    The only thing she had to left to compete with was the racist desires of Tory voters, no sudden change.

    The logical summary of what you are saying is that the Labour Party was indistinguishable from the Conservatives on this issue until Corbyn became leader. If you accepted that, rather than spewing blind anti-Tory prejudice all over the place, you might have a stronger point. It is certainly true that the Corbyn's views on immigration are different from those of his predecessors. I'm not sure that's much to his credit, but that's by the by, you probably disagree, which is fair enough.

    However, none of this has anything to do with anti-Semitism in Corbyn's Labour Party, which is a stain unprecedented in a major UK political party for decades, and which is equally an entirely new issue, which didn't exist under previous leaders.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 24,718
    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist.

    What are you talking about putting legitimate concerns in quotation marks? Did I use that term? Is this fake news? What's going on?

    And as for "Labout pandering to Conservative bigotry" at what point does it become Labour bigotry or are Labour always and everywhere exempt from being bigots themselves.

    I think that latter mindset speaks volumes about the left. You are so convinced that you are on the side of the right that under no circumstances can you entertain the possibility that Labour people (Brown in that instance, Corbyn always) could be wrong. It is not bigotry in your mind it is somehow a corruption of their perfect behaviour by outside influences. Very telling.

    Oh and fuck off yourself if we're going down that path.

    not enough white faces... not even England anymore...

    'legitimate concerns'

    Blowing that dog whistle on immigration whilst pointing at your opponents and calling them racist is a fun double act but the reason it completely fails is because it is laughable hypocrisy.

    It was Labour trying to win (or keep) racist votes from the Tories, hence pandering to Conservative bigotry.
    Was that in one of the links I posted (didn't read through them all you know how it is with google links)?

    Otherwise what are you talking about? Where is it stated "not enough white faces"?

    And as for Labour not being racist and are only being racist in order to out-racist the racist Conservatives? That's some tangle you've got yourself into, there, buster.
    You regularly seem to struggle to keep up, were you distracted by a minority passing by who angered you by living here or something?
    @TOPPING -- I hadn’t realised you too were racist Tory scum. We should hang out some time. :D
    So much to talk about.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 18,426

    JackW said:

    IanB2 said:

    JackW said:

    7) This was a really good result for Labour.

    Er .....

    1. Worst result ever for a winning by-election candidate.
    2. Awful result nine years into Conservative government.
    3. Winning Labour candidate continues Labour "Jewish issues."
    4. Result confirms Labour 20% nationally - Curtice.
    5. More Peterborough "good result" nationally spells disaster for Labour.

    Probably fair to say that it was a mildly good result when an opposition on the cusp of becoming the government should have got a stonkingly good result.
    Not even "mildly good" but

    Tactically and short term on the plus side :

    1. Labour won
    2. Labour gained tactical LibDem and Green votes - Curtice
    3. Farage wet haddocked.

    Strategically - As my previous post.
    Cynically, as a Conservative, it's far better that Labour's antisemitic candidate won: that will dog them both locally and nationally - as opposed to TBP getting a toehold in Parliament.

    However I'd much rather have someone of Mike Greene's calibre in Parliament than Lisa Forbes, regardless of their views on Brexit.
    I think the Tories overestimate the electoral damage that continual accusations of antisemitism might cause Labour. This issue has been well-aired, any Labour voters who are going to desert the Party because of it have already gone and there is now such a welter of accusations and counter accusations that it is hard to separate fact from spin (which is not in any way to excuse Labour or say that there is no problem) but daily "revelations" about something somebody said on twitter are devaluing the currency and may well be having the opposite effect to that intended.
    It’s not - for some of us - about electoral advantage. But about basic morality and decency. Labour people should be ashamed of what so many of their members and supporters have been saying and doing. They should but are not - either because they are in denial or because they agree with it.

    I’m sure they’d like the daily revelations to stop. But the day we stop being embarrassed or revolted by such behaviour is the day we lose - as a society and as individuals - what little moral compass we have left.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist.

    What are you talking about putting legitimate concerns in quotation marks? Did I use that term? Is this fake news? What's going on?

    And as for "Labout pandering to Conservative bigotry" at what point does it become Labour bigotry or are Labour always and everywhere exempt from being bigots themselves.

    I think that latter mindset speaks volumes about the left. You are so convinced that you are on the side of the right that under no circumstances can you entertain the possibility that Labour people (Brown in that instance, Corbyn always) could be wrong. It is not bigotry in your mind it is somehow a corruption of their perfect behaviour by outside influences. Very telling.

    Oh and fuck off yourself if we're going down that path.

    not enough white faces... not even England anymore...

    'legitimate concerns'

    Blowing that dog whistle on immigration whilst pointing at your opponents and calling them racist is a fun double act but the reason it completely fails is because it is laughable hypocrisy.

    It was Labour trying to win (or keep) racist votes from the Tories, hence pandering to Conservative bigotry.
    Was that in one of the links I posted (didn't read through them all you know how it is with google links)?

    Otherwise what are you talking about? Where is it stated "not enough white faces"?

    And as for Labour not being racist and are only being racist in order to out-racist the racist Conservatives? That's some tangle you've got yourself into, there, buster.
    You regularly seem to struggle to keep up, were you distracted by a minority passing by who angered you by living here or something?
    You do realise that you sound slightly unhinged, don't you?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 11,403
    Byronic said:

    FF43 said:

    felix said:



    A party which is by no means perfect but not in anything like the same level of denial.

    Why do you think the Tories have such a terrible vote return from BAME?

    And no it isn't because the minorities are evil....
    It's a fair point. Fewer and fewer ethnic minority voters are happy to choose Conservative, while they are happy, presumably with the exception of Jews, to vote Labour. It probably isn't overt racism, although it doesn't the help Tory inclusiveness image when the PM apparent calls blacks "picaninnies" and says they have lower IQs. It's a more a sense of feeling unwanted, I suspect.
    The converse of this is that there may come a time when white Britons start "voting white", rather than for any other reason, as society polarises. That would be terrible for Labour, in the long term, as they are perceived as the BAME party.

    You might think it couldn't happen here, but many experts scoffed and said it couldn't happen in America. Until it did. And Trump was elected.
    Zac Goldsmith tried that trick with the London mayoral election. Fortunately it backfired.

    The more interesting point to me is the apparent paradox of the Conservative party (genuinely I believe) not being institutionally racist but at the same time repellant to ethnic minorities. I think it boils down to "You're not one of us. We're not interested in you." Is that racist?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 48,539
    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist.

    What are you talking about putting legitimate concerns in quotation marks? Did I use that term? Is this fake news? What's going on?

    And as for "Labout pandering to Conservative bigotry" at what point does it become Labour bigotry or are Labour always and everywhere exempt from being bigots themselves.

    I think that latter mindset speaks volumes about the left. You are so convinced that you are on the side of the right that under no circumstances can you entertain the possibility that Labour people (Brown in that instance, Corbyn always) could be wrong. It is not bigotry in your mind it is somehow a corruption of their perfect behaviour by outside influences. Very telling.

    Oh and fuck off yourself if we're going down that path.

    not enough white faces... not even England anymore...

    'legitimate concerns'

    Blowing that dog whistle on immigration whilst pointing at your opponents and calling them racist is a fun double act but the reason it completely fails is because it is laughable hypocrisy.

    It was Labour trying to win (or keep) racist votes from the Tories, hence pandering to Conservative bigotry.
    Was that in one of the links I posted (didn't read through them all you know how it is with google links)?

    Otherwise what are you talking about? Where is it stated "not enough white faces"?

    And as for Labour not being racist and are only being racist in order to out-racist the racist Conservatives? That's some tangle you've got yourself into, there, buster.
    You regularly seem to struggle to keep up, were you distracted by a minority passing by who angered you by living here or something?
    @TOPPING -- I hadn’t realised you too were racist Tory scum. We should hang out some time. :D
    So much to talk about.
    Let’s just avoid the B word. :)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 24,718

    In 2015 Ed had gone and Jeremy Corbyn was attending refugee welcome rallies...

    The only thing she had to left to compete with was the racist desires of Tory voters, no sudden change.

    The logical summary of what you are saying is that the Labour Party was indistinguishable from the Conservatives on this issue until Corbyn became leader. If you accepted that, rather than spewing blind anti-Tory prejudice all over the place, you might have a stronger point. It is certainly true that the Corbyn's views on immigration are different from those of his predecessors. I'm not sure that's much to his credit, but that's by the by, you probably disagree, which is fair enough.

    However, none of this has anything to do with anti-Semitism in Corbyn's Labour Party, which is a stain unprecedented in a major UK political party for decades, and which is equally an entirely new issue, which didn't exist under previous leaders.
    I think Tony Blair was a fan of immigration because of socio-economic reasons while Jeremy Corbyn is a fan of immigration because of socio-political reasons.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 24,718
    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist.

    What are you talking about putting legitimate concerns in quotation marks? Did I use that term? Is this fake news? What's going on?

    And as for "Labout pandering to Conservative bigotry" at what point does it become Labour bigotry or are Labour always and everywhere exempt from being bigots themselves.

    I think that latter mindset speaks volumes about the left. You are so convinced that you are on the side of the right that under no circumstances can you entertain the possibility that Labour people (Brown in that instance, Corbyn always) could be wrong. It is not bigotry in your mind it is somehow a corruption of their perfect behaviour by outside influences. Very telling.

    Oh and fuck off yourself if we're going down that path.

    not enough white faces... not even England anymore...

    'legitimate concerns'

    Blowing that dog whistle on immigration whilst pointing at your opponents and calling them racist is a fun double act but the reason it completely fails is because it is laughable hypocrisy.

    It was Labour trying to win (or keep) racist votes from the Tories, hence pandering to Conservative bigotry.
    Was that in one of the links I posted (didn't read through them all you know how it is with google links)?

    Otherwise what are you talking about? Where is it stated "not enough white faces"?

    And as for Labour not being racist and are only being racist in order to out-racist the racist Conservatives? That's some tangle you've got yourself into, there, buster.
    You regularly seem to struggle to keep up, were you distracted by a minority passing by who angered you by living here or something?
    @TOPPING -- I hadn’t realised you too were racist Tory scum. We should hang out some time. :D
    So much to talk about.
    Let’s just avoid the B word. :)
    BigotedToryFascistsCorruptingOtherwisePureLabourPartyTypes.

    That word?
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    FF43 said:

    Byronic said:

    FF43 said:

    felix said:



    A party which is by no means perfect but not in anything like the same level of denial.

    Why do you think the Tories have such a terrible vote return from BAME?

    And no it isn't because the minorities are evil....
    It's a fair point. Fewer and fewer ethnic minority voters are happy to choose Conservative, while they are happy, presumably with the exception of Jews, to vote Labour. It probably isn't overt racism, although it doesn't the help Tory inclusiveness image when the PM apparent calls blacks "picaninnies" and says they have lower IQs. It's a more a sense of feeling unwanted, I suspect.
    The converse of this is that there may come a time when white Britons start "voting white", rather than for any other reason, as society polarises. That would be terrible for Labour, in the long term, as they are perceived as the BAME party.

    You might think it couldn't happen here, but many experts scoffed and said it couldn't happen in America. Until it did. And Trump was elected.
    Zac Goldsmith tried that trick with the London mayoral election. Fortunately it backfired.

    The more interesting point to me is the apparent paradox of the Conservative party (genuinely I believe) not being institutionally racist but at the same time repellant to ethnic minorities. I think it boils down to "You're not one of us. We're not interested in you." Is that racist?
    It was never going to work in London, was it? Duhh. Just like Trump didn't do so well in New York City.

    Can this process work in provincial Britain? Certainly. We are not that different from America.

    Of course I hope it doesn't ever come to this. Entire nations voting on ethnic lines (whites as well as others) is a recipe for, well, a Donald Trump type leader. However the insane pursuit of ultra identity politics will produce this outcome, if the trend extrapolates. In my opinion.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 48,539
    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist.

    What are you talking about putting legitimate concerns in quotation marks? Did I use that term? Is this fake news? What's going on?

    And as for "Labout pandering to Conservative bigotry" at what point does it become Labour bigotry or are Labour always and everywhere exempt from being bigots themselves.

    I think that latter mindset speaks volumes about the left. You are so convinced that you are on the side of the right that under no circumstances can you entertain the possibility that Labour people (Brown in that instance, Corbyn always) could be wrong. It is not bigotry in your mind it is somehow a corruption of their perfect behaviour by outside influences. Very telling.

    Oh and fuck off yourself if we're going down that path.

    not enough white faces... not even England anymore...

    'legitimate concerns'

    Blowing that dog whistle on immigration whilst pointing at your opponents and calling them racist is a fun double act but the reason it completely fails is because it is laughable hypocrisy.

    It was Labour trying to win (or keep) racist votes from the Tories, hence pandering to Conservative bigotry.
    Was that in one of the links I posted (didn't read through them all you know how it is with google links)?

    Otherwise what are you talking about? Where is it stated "not enough white faces"?

    And as for Labour not being racist and are only being racist in order to out-racist the racist Conservatives? That's some tangle you've got yourself into, there, buster.
    You regularly seem to struggle to keep up, were you distracted by a minority passing by who angered you by living here or something?
    @TOPPING -- I hadn’t realised you too were racist Tory scum. We should hang out some time. :D
    So much to talk about.
    Let’s just avoid the B word. :)
    BigotedToryFascistsCorruptingOtherwisePureLabourPartyTypes.

    That word?
    Yes. I find it difficult to say after a bottle of plonk.
  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 241
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    TheJezziah:

    "Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist."

    +++++

    Labour are the only party, apart from the BNP, to be officially investigated for racism by the EHRC. The Labour party is riddled with racism. Denying this is futile. It is a racist party, led by a racist, who is, in turn, aided by racists.

    Look at this thread and how Labour, Corbyn and new MP Lisa Forbes are already drowning in antisemitism claims.

    Now imagine Boris as leader and write the Labour spin lines against him on the same issues. It's too easy. That is why (in my view) Boris will not be elected. Even this morning's court case dismissal said what? -- that you can't sue Boris for lying. The attack ads write themselves.
    That's a very good point. Boris is a big target. Trouble ahead if he wins. But, as I have said before, the Tories are now in such a bind - 300k down in the casino, the house already gambled away - they might just have to roll the dice anyhow.
    I think you're bang on with that. Every single setback for the Tories stems from Cameron's Bloomberg speech in 2013. They've lost £300k and now they're trying to make a bet with the staff that they can thread a needle with both hands being restrained by the ERG on one side and the moderates such as Greening etc on the other.
  • Byronic said:

    FF43 said:

    Byronic said:

    FF43 said:

    felix said:



    A party which is by no means perfect but not in anything like the same level of denial.

    Why do you think the Tories have such a terrible vote return from BAME?

    And no it isn't because the minorities are evil....
    It's a fair point. Fewer and fewer ethnic minority voters are happy to choose Conservative, while they are happy, presumably with the exception of Jews, to vote Labour. It probably isn't overt racism, although it doesn't the help Tory inclusiveness image when the PM apparent calls blacks "picaninnies" and says they have lower IQs. It's a more a sense of feeling unwanted, I suspect.
    The converse of this is that there may come a time when white Britons start "voting white", rather than for any other reason, as society polarises. That would be terrible for Labour, in the long term, as they are perceived as the BAME party.

    You might think it couldn't happen here, but many experts scoffed and said it couldn't happen in America. Until it did. And Trump was elected.
    Zac Goldsmith tried that trick with the London mayoral election. Fortunately it backfired.

    The more interesting point to me is the apparent paradox of the Conservative party (genuinely I believe) not being institutionally racist but at the same time repellant to ethnic minorities. I think it boils down to "You're not one of us. We're not interested in you." Is that racist?
    It was never going to work in London, was it? Duhh. Just like Trump didn't do so well in New York City.

    Can this process work in provincial Britain? Certainly. We are not that different from America.

    Of course I hope it doesn't ever come to this. Entire nations voting on ethnic lines (whites as well as others) is a recipe for, well, a Donald Trump type leader. However the insane pursuit of ultra identity politics will produce this outcome, if the trend extrapolates. In my opinion.
    There's plenty of evidence of tribal voting around, Byron, even on this relatively enlightened forum.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Cyclefree said:

    JackW said:

    IanB2 said:

    JackW said:

    7) This was a really good result for Labour.

    Er .....

    1. Worst result ever for a winning by-election candidate.
    2. Awful result nine years into Conservative government.
    3. Winning Labour candidate continues Labour "Jewish issues."
    4. Result confirms Labour 20% nationally - Curtice.
    5. More Peterborough "good result" nationally spells disaster for Labour.

    Probably fair to say that it was a mildly good result when an opposition on the cusp of becoming the government should have got a stonkingly good result.
    Not even "mildly good" but

    Tactically and short term on the plus side :

    1. Labour won
    2. Labour gained tactical LibDem and Green votes - Curtice
    3. Farage wet haddocked.

    Strategically - As my previous post.
    Cynically, as a Conservative, it's far better that Labour's antisemitic candidate won: that will dog them both locally and nationally - as opposed to TBP getting a toehold in Parliament.

    However I'd much rather have someone of Mike Greene's calibre in Parliament than Lisa Forbes, regardless of their views on Brexit.
    I think the Tories overestimate the electoral damage that continual accusations of antisemitism might cause Labour. This issue has been well-aired, any Labour voters who are going to desert the Party because of it have already gone and there is now such a welter of accusations and counter accusations that it is hard to separate fact from spin (which is not in any way to excuse Labour or say that there is no problem) but daily "revelations" about something somebody said on twitter are devaluing the currency and may well be having the opposite effect to that intended.
    It’s not - for some of us - about electoral advantage. But about basic morality and decency. Labour people should be ashamed of what so many of their members and supporters have been saying and doing. They should but are not - either because they are in denial or because they agree with it.

    I’m sure they’d like the daily revelations to stop. But the day we stop being embarrassed or revolted by such behaviour is the day we lose - as a society and as individuals - what little moral compass we have left.
    To be fair to Labour there are plenty of MPs, members, activists who are quietly appalled by what is going on in their party. Some, like Jess Philips (see her tweet below, following Peterborough) are prepared to talk out about it.

    So hope has not died. Yet.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    FF43 said:

    Byronic said:

    FF43 said:

    felix said:



    A party which is by no means perfect but not in anything like the same level of denial.

    Why do you think the Tories have such a terrible vote return from BAME?

    And no it isn't because the minorities are evil....
    It's a fair point. Fewer and fewer ethnic minority voters are happy to choose Conservative, while they are happy, presumably with the exception of Jews, to vote Labour. It probably isn't overt racism, although it doesn't the help Tory inclusiveness image when the PM apparent calls blacks "picaninnies" and says they have lower IQs. It's a more a sense of feeling unwanted, I suspect.
    The converse of this is that there may come a time when white Britons start "voting white", rather than for any other reason, as society polarises. That would be terrible for Labour, in the long term, as they are perceived as the BAME party.

    You might think it couldn't happen here, but many experts scoffed and said it couldn't happen in America. Until it did. And Trump was elected.
    Zac Goldsmith tried that trick with the London mayoral election. Fortunately it backfired.

    The more interesting point to me is the apparent paradox of the Conservative party (genuinely I believe) not being institutionally racist but at the same time repellant to ethnic minorities. I think it boils down to "You're not one of us. We're not interested in you." Is that racist?
    It was never going to work in London, was it? Duhh. Just like Trump didn't do so well in New York City.

    Can this process work in provincial Britain? Certainly. We are not that different from America.

    Of course I hope it doesn't ever come to this. Entire nations voting on ethnic lines (whites as well as others) is a recipe for, well, a Donald Trump type leader. However the insane pursuit of ultra identity politics will produce this outcome, if the trend extrapolates. In my opinion.
    There's plenty of evidence of tribal voting around, Byron, even on this relatively enlightened forum.
    Yes, absolutely. In fact I'd say Brexit was possibly the first menacing sign of this phenomenon taking hold in Britain.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 18,426

    Cyclefree said:

    I see Jess Phillips and Wes Streeting have slapped ass faces this morning.

    Are you proud of being only the second party - after the BNP - being formally investigated for racism - and by an institution Labour set up?
    Cyclefree said:

    I see Jess Phillips and Wes Streeting have slapped ass faces this morning.

    Are you proud of being only the second party - after the BNP - being formally investigated for racism - and by an institution Labour set up?
    Independent research says Labour is less Antisemitic than other parties though.

    I was ashamed of the blatant Antisemitism of Alistair Campbell and Blairs Michael Howard posters.

    Funnily enough i cant remember you mentioning them.
    Ahh denial again.

    And you’re wrong - I did mention the latter in one of my thread headers. Critically rather than approvingly.

    Denial and ignorance: sums up too many Labour supporters these days.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 35,697
    Norm said:

    Leave secured 60.9% of the vote in Peterborough in 2016 and only 51% of the vote in Peterborough in 2019

    Labour are not a Remain party.

    Corbyn is a smarter operator than many give him credit for. His well reported slapping down of Thornberry's support for a 2nd ref was well timed. It may not have changed many votes but in a tight contest like Peterborough it still matters.
    Seriously? You reckon more than say 2% of voters in Peterborough had taken in that news about Thornberry?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 19,702
    RobD said:
    Ann Widdecombe?


    It's nasty, though, isn't it. Not so sure about the flying pig poster, though; unachievable promises are up there with Demon Eytes.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 12,033
    So following May's resignation, the leader of the Conservative Party is May.

    I think that means that Nothing has Changed.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,334
    Byronic said:

    <

    Yes, absolutely. In fact I'd say Brexit was possibly the first menacing sign of this phenomenon taking hold in Britain.

    No, it's been around far longer than that. In fact before Brexit I would have said it was declining - when I started out in politics in the 1970s it was a given that Irish Catholics, BME (as we didn't call them then) and the working class voted Labour whilst teachers, doctors, professionals and C of E voted Tory. Strange though it seems now, the Tories were a powerful voice in student politics, students generally being from professional middle and upper class Tory backgrounds.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,265
    So is HMS Mordaunt now going to enter the race? Or is she in dry dock for the duration?
  • argyllrsargyllrs Posts: 154

    Cyclefree said:

    I see Jess Phillips and Wes Streeting have slapped ass faces this morning.

    Are you proud of being only the second party - after the BNP - being formally investigated for racism - and by an institution Labour set up?

    Reminds me of Alan B'stard being the first person to be sentenced to hanging after bringing back the death penalty.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 28,133
    Byronic said:

    FF43 said:

    Byronic said:

    FF43 said:

    felix said:



    A party which is by no means perfect but not in anything like the same level of denial.

    Why do you think the Tories have such a terrible vote return from BAME?

    And no it isn't because the minorities are evil....
    It's a fair point. Fewer and fewer ethnic minority voters are happy to choose Conservative, while they are happy, presumably with the exception of Jews, to vote Labour. It probably isn't overt racism, although it doesn't the help Tory inclusiveness image when the PM apparent calls blacks "picaninnies" and says they have lower IQs. It's a more a sense of feeling unwanted, I suspect.
    The converse of this is that there may come a time when white Britons start "voting white", rather than for any other reason, as society polarises. That would be terrible for Labour, in the long term, as they are perceived as the BAME party.

    You might think it couldn't happen here, but many experts scoffed and said it couldn't happen in America. Until it did. And Trump was elected.
    Zac Goldsmith tried that trick with the London mayoral election. Fortunately it backfired.

    The more interesting point to me is the apparent paradox of the Conservative party (genuinely I believe) not being institutionally racist but at the same time repellant to ethnic minorities. I think it boils down to "You're not one of us. We're not interested in you." Is that racist?
    It was never going to work in London, was it? Duhh. Just like Trump didn't do so well in New York City.

    Can this process work in provincial Britain? Certainly. We are not that different from America.

    Of course I hope it doesn't ever come to this. Entire nations voting on ethnic lines (whites as well as others) is a recipe for, well, a Donald Trump type leader. However the insane pursuit of ultra identity politics will produce this outcome, if the trend extrapolates. In my opinion.
    Sounds like Sean to me.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Pakistan v Sri Lanka has been declared a washout.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Byronic said:

    FF43 said:

    felix said:



    A party which is by no means perfect but not in anything like the same level of denial.

    Why do you think the Tories have such a terrible vote return from BAME?

    And no it isn't because the minorities are evil....
    It's a fair point. Fewer and fewer ethnic minority voters are happy to choose Conservative, while they are happy, presumably with the exception of Jews, to vote Labour. It probably isn't overt racism, although it doesn't the help Tory inclusiveness image when the PM apparent calls blacks "picaninnies" and says they have lower IQs. It's a more a sense of feeling unwanted, I suspect.
    The converse of this is that there may come a time when white Britons start "voting white", rather than for any other reason, as society polarises. That would be terrible for Labour, in the long term, as they are perceived as the BAME party.

    You might think it couldn't happen here, but many experts scoffed and said it couldn't happen in America. Until it did. And Trump was elected.
    You can already see that happening in places like Stoke-on-Trent, Walsall and Mansfield.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 19,702

    Byronic said:

    <

    Yes, absolutely. In fact I'd say Brexit was possibly the first menacing sign of this phenomenon taking hold in Britain.

    No, it's been around far longer than that. In fact before Brexit I would have said it was declining - when I started out in politics in the 1970s it was a given that Irish Catholics, BME (as we didn't call them then) and the working class voted Labour whilst teachers, doctors, professionals and C of E voted Tory. Strange though it seems now, the Tories were a powerful voice in student politics, students generally being from professional middle and upper class Tory backgrounds.
    When I were a lad the Young Conservatives were a significant youth movement, allegedly because the prettiest girls went there.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,584
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:


    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Jewish Labour Movement calling for their new MP to be suspended from the Labour Party

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.
    So you’re quite happy that your new MP is a racist?
    You want Tommy Robinson to be Prime Minister?
    No, and thankfully he isn’t a candidate. Unlike Jeremy Corbyn and his racist enablers.
    That is strange because that is clearly what you said in your last post.

    I mean surely I wouldn't have responded to your post with a question which states something you didn't say because that would just be stupid....

    Also funny you claim to not want racists when you are a Tory voter, strange disconnect....
    What does Lisa Forbes being racist have anything to do with Tommy Robinson?

    Feel free to point me to racist comments by Conservative candidates, and I’ll happily condemn them.
    100 minutes later, still awaiting an example of racist comments by Conservative candidates @TheJezziah
  • Well Betfair are in for a world of pain now.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 3,907

    OllyT said:


    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Jewish Labour Movement calling for their new MP to be suspended from the Labour Party

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.

    and all that you and your illustrious leader appear to be doing is excusing and condoning it. Labour is going to regret not addressing the issue promptly and decisively, it could well cost them the next election if the margins remain tight.
    They complain because Corbyn is leader, they have made clear they don't want him as leader. Fine, I am not particularly interested in their opinion.
    I was actually referring to the response to any accusation of anti-semitism not just this specific incident.. As with Brexit Corbyn has prevaricated and employed weasel words in respect to both Brexit and ant-semitism but most people have seen through it.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,243

    Norm said:

    Leave secured 60.9% of the vote in Peterborough in 2016 and only 51% of the vote in Peterborough in 2019

    Labour are not a Remain party.

    Corbyn is a smarter operator than many give him credit for. His well reported slapping down of Thornberry's support for a 2nd ref was well timed. It may not have changed many votes but in a tight contest like Peterborough it still matters.
    Seriously? You reckon more than say 2% of voters in Peterborough had taken in that news about Thornberry?
    Let's put it another way - had JC come out with a "Emily is right and I now back a 2nd referendum " last week that would have made a difference.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 18,426
    Byronic said:

    Cyclefree said:

    JackW said:

    IanB2 said:

    JackW said:

    7)

    I think the Tories overestimate the electoral damage that continual accusations of antisemitism might cause Labour. This issue has been well-aired, any Labour voters who are going to desert the Party because of it have already gone and there is now such a welter of accusations and counter accusations that it is hard to separate fact from spin (which is not in any way to excuse Labour or say that there is no problem) but daily "revelations" about something somebody said on twitter are devaluing the currency and may well be having the opposite effect to that intended.
    It’s not - for some of us - about electoral advantage. But about basic morality and decency. Labour people should be ashamed of what so many of their members and supporters have been saying and doing. They should but are not - either because they are in denial or because they agree with it.

    I’m sure they’d like the daily revelations to stop. But the day we stop being embarrassed or revolted by such behaviour is the day we lose - as a society and as individuals - what little moral compass we have left.
    To be fair to Labour there are plenty of MPs, members, activists who are quietly appalled by what is going on in their party. Some, like Jess Philips (see her tweet below, following Peterborough) are prepared to talk out about it.

    So hope has not died. Yet.
    Jess does talk about it and is a supporter of the Jewish Labour Movement. She spoke at one of their recent dinners though I was not able to go, sadly. She also speaks up about ie against the homophobic bigotry being displayed by Birmingham parents and others, one of the few Labour MPs to do so.

    But there comes a point when more than words is needed. Despite having voted Labour in the past I can never ever vote Labour while they remain anti-semitic and pander to bigotry. This seems to me to be such a fundamental issue - because it goes to the heart of decency and morality - that it overrides more transient stuff eg policies on taxation or whatever.

    Jess Phillips and Wes Streeting and others need to ask themselves whether they can, in all good conscience, stay in a party and ask voters to vote for a party which seems to have absorbed this into its DNA and which would mean having Corbyn, the person who has given rocket boosters to anti-semites to flock to his party, as PM.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    IanB2 said:

    Byronic said:

    FF43 said:

    Byronic said:

    FF43 said:

    felix said:



    A party which is by no means perfect but not in anything like the same level of denial.

    Why do you think the Tories have such a terrible vote return from BAME?

    And no it isn't because the minorities are evil....
    It's a fair point. Fewer and fewer ethnic minority voters are happy to choose Conservative, while they are happy, presumably with the exception of Jews, to vote Labour. It probably isn't overt racism, although it doesn't the help Tory inclusiveness image when the PM apparent calls blacks "picaninnies" and says they have lower IQs. It's a more a sense of feeling unwanted, I suspect.
    The converse of this is that there may come a time when white Britons start "voting white", rather than for any other reason, as society polarises. That would be terrible for Labour, in the long term, as they are perceived as the BAME party.

    You might think it couldn't happen here, but many experts scoffed and said it couldn't happen in America. Until it did. And Trump was elected.
    Zac Goldsmith tried that trick with the London mayoral election. Fortunately it backfired.

    The more interesting point to me is the apparent paradox of the Conservative party (genuinely I believe) not being institutionally racist but at the same time repellant to ethnic minorities. I think it boils down to "You're not one of us. We're not interested in you." Is that racist?
    It was never going to work in London, was it? Duhh. Just like Trump didn't do so well in New York City.

    Can this process work in provincial Britain? Certainly. We are not that different from America.

    Of course I hope it doesn't ever come to this. Entire nations voting on ethnic lines (whites as well as others) is a recipe for, well, a Donald Trump type leader. However the insane pursuit of ultra identity politics will produce this outcome, if the trend extrapolates. In my opinion.
    Sounds like Sean to me.
    No offence, but i suggest this is beginning to get very boring. For everyone. Including me.
  • Byronic said:

    IanB2 said:

    Byronic said:

    FF43 said:

    Byronic said:

    FF43 said:

    felix said:



    A party which is by no means perfect but not in anything like the same level of denial.

    Why do you think the Tories have such a terrible vote return from BAME?

    And no it isn't because the minorities are evil....
    It's a fair point. Fewer and fewer ethnic minority voters are happy to choose Conservative, while they are happy, presumably with the exception of Jews, to vote Labour. It probably isn't overt racism, although it doesn't the help Tory inclusiveness image when the PM apparent calls blacks "picaninnies" and says they have lower IQs. It's a more a sense of feeling unwanted, I suspect.
    The converse of this is that there may come a time when white Britons start "voting white", rather than for any other reason, as society polarises. That would be terrible for Labour, in the long term, as they are perceived as the BAME party.

    You might think it couldn't happen here, but many experts scoffed and said it couldn't happen in America. Until it did. And Trump was elected.
    Zac Goldsmith tried that trick with the London mayoral election. Fortunately it backfired.

    The more interesting point to me is the apparent paradox of the Conservative party (genuinely I believe) not being institutionally racist but at the same time repellant to ethnic minorities. I think it boils down to "You're not one of us. We're not interested in you." Is that racist?
    It was never going to work in London, was it? Duhh. Just like Trump didn't do so well in New York City.

    Can this process work in provincial Britain? Certainly. We are not that different from America.

    Of course I hope it doesn't ever come to this. Entire nations voting on ethnic lines (whites as well as others) is a recipe for, well, a Donald Trump type leader. However the insane pursuit of ultra identity politics will produce this outcome, if the trend extrapolates. In my opinion.
    Sounds like Sean to me.
    No offence, but i suggest this is beginning to get very boring. For everyone. Including me.
    Indeed, let us move on to something else, Robert has confirmed it isn't Sean.

    Endex.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 24,718

    Well Betfair are in for a world of pain now.
    Le Roi est mort, vive le roi...
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,727


    Well Betfair are in for a world of pain now.

    It's certainly a tricky one. However, the crucial phrase might be 'remain as Acting Leader'. She can't remain if she's gone, so I think the most reasonable interpretation is that it will be Q3. But it is arguable the other way.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 40,829

    Well Betfair are in for a world of pain now.
    Why? The letter from the 1922 confirms that she remains Acting Leader of the Party until her successor is elected. If they count Acting Leader as Leader which seems appropriate then June is a losing bet.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,334

    Byronic said:

    <

    Yes, absolutely. In fact I'd say Brexit was possibly the first menacing sign of this phenomenon taking hold in Britain.

    No, it's been around far longer than that. In fact before Brexit I would have said it was declining - when I started out in politics in the 1970s it was a given that Irish Catholics, BME (as we didn't call them then) and the working class voted Labour whilst teachers, doctors, professionals and C of E voted Tory. Strange though it seems now, the Tories were a powerful voice in student politics, students generally being from professional middle and upper class Tory backgrounds.
    When I were a lad the Young Conservatives were a significant youth movement, allegedly because the prettiest girls went there.
    Oh I thought that was the young farmers. Though I was a city boy so never had the chance to find out sadly.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,584
    tlg86 said:
    If she’s formally resigned, then will Betfair be paying out on her leaving office in June?
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    edited June 2019

    Byronic said:

    <

    Yes, absolutely. In fact I'd say Brexit was possibly the first menacing sign of this phenomenon taking hold in Britain.

    No, it's been around far longer than that. In fact before Brexit I would have said it was declining - when I started out in politics in the 1970s it was a given that Irish Catholics, BME (as we didn't call them then) and the working class voted Labour whilst teachers, doctors, professionals and C of E voted Tory. Strange though it seems now, the Tories were a powerful voice in student politics, students generally being from professional middle and upper class Tory backgrounds.
    I take your point, but you are referring to class, and I was referring to race: to the specific phenomenon of white people voting one way JUST BECAUSE they identify as white (though they might not admit they do this, or even realise it).

    I do not think we have seen this before in the UK, certainly not on a large scale.
  • Well Betfair are in for a world of pain now.
    Why? The letter from the 1922 confirms that she remains Acting Leader of the Party until her successor is elected. If they count Acting Leader as Leader which seems appropriate then June is a losing bet.
    Betfair and other bookies have said they would not pay out on interim leaders succeeding Mrs May as winners.

    They've created a precedent for which I'm grateful.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:
    If she’s formally resigned, then will Betfair be paying out on her leaving office in June?
    She is still leader according to the 1922, so you would think not.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,727
    edited June 2019
    Also, the press release says that the names of the 'proposer and seconder' of each candidate will be published on Monday. But what about the change of rules requiring 10 nominations?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037

    Well Betfair are in for a world of pain now.
    Why? The letter from the 1922 confirms that she remains Acting Leader of the Party until her successor is elected. If they count Acting Leader as Leader which seems appropriate then June is a losing bet.
    Their rules are "When will Theresa May officially cease to be leader of the Conservative Party?"

    It's a case of semantics, but all the reporting is that she has officially ceased to be leader. Acting leader is not the same thing.

    Anyhow, Betfair disagree, so I'm taking them to IBAS. It's worth noting that Cameron did not resign as leader prior to the leadership contest, so things have definitely been done differently this time.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,334
    edited June 2019
    So as this comes from the joint acting chairmen does that mean Brady is standing?

    If he wasn't a candidate surely the notice would be from him?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037

    So as this comes from the joint acting chairmen does that mean Brady is standing?
    Not necessarily: he resigned so that he could consider standing. I believe he is still dwelling on it.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Well Betfair are in for a world of pain now.
    Why? The letter from the 1922 confirms that she remains Acting Leader of the Party until her successor is elected. If they count Acting Leader as Leader which seems appropriate then June is a losing bet.
    Betfair and other bookies have said they would not pay out on interim leaders succeeding Mrs May as winners.

    They've created a precedent for which I'm grateful.
    What we need is an internationally accepted definition, with examples, so that everyone understands what counts, and what doesn't.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,727

    So as this comes from the joint acting chairmen does that mean Brady is standing?
    No I don't think so, he recused himself because he might stand. I don't think he'd try to un-recuse himself now.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 56,020

    So as this comes from the joint acting chairmen does that mean Brady is standing?
    He stood back from the process right from the start to consider if he would, but god knows why he hasn't when everyone else did
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037

    Well Betfair are in for a world of pain now.
    Why? The letter from the 1922 confirms that she remains Acting Leader of the Party until her successor is elected. If they count Acting Leader as Leader which seems appropriate then June is a losing bet.
    Betfair and other bookies have said they would not pay out on interim leaders succeeding Mrs May as winners.

    They've created a precedent for which I'm grateful.
    What we need is an internationally accepted definition, with examples, so that everyone understands what counts, and what doesn't.
    A better market would be "when will x be replaced as y". So avoiding issues with vacancies (which is what I believe we currently have).
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,727

    Well Betfair are in for a world of pain now.
    Why? The letter from the 1922 confirms that she remains Acting Leader of the Party until her successor is elected. If they count Acting Leader as Leader which seems appropriate then June is a losing bet.
    Their rules are "When will Theresa May officially cease to be leader of the Conservative Party?"

    It's a case of semantics, but all the reporting is that she has officially ceased to be leader. Acting leader is not the same thing.

    Anyhow, Betfair disagree, so I'm taking them to IBAS. It's worth noting that Cameron did not resign as leader prior to the leadership contest, so things have definitely been done differently this time.
    She's officially Acting Leader!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,584
    Byronic said:

    FF43 said:

    felix said:



    A party which is by no means perfect but not in anything like the same level of denial.

    Why do you think the Tories have such a terrible vote return from BAME?

    And no it isn't because the minorities are evil....
    It's a fair point. Fewer and fewer ethnic minority voters are happy to choose Conservative, while they are happy, presumably with the exception of Jews, to vote Labour. It probably isn't overt racism, although it doesn't the help Tory inclusiveness image when the PM apparent calls blacks "picaninnies" and says they have lower IQs. It's a more a sense of feeling unwanted, I suspect.
    The converse of this is that there may come a time when white Britons start "voting white", rather than for any other reason, as society polarises. That would be terrible for Labour, in the long term, as they are perceived as the BAME party.

    You might think it couldn't happen here, but many experts scoffed and said it couldn't happen in America. Until it did. And Trump was elected.
    One of the hashtags used by theTrump campaign was something like #IdentityPoliticsForWhitePeople
    It was always only a matter of time before the majority get fed up of politicians pandering exclusively to minorities for votes.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Cyclefree said:

    I see Jess Phillips and Wes Streeting have slapped ass faces this morning.

    Are you proud of being only the second party - after the BNP - being formally investigated for racism - and by an institution Labour set up?
    You're one of the last posters I would expect to conflate "being investigated for" and "being guilty of" in order to score political points. How disappointing.
This discussion has been closed.