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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Peterborough Chronicle. About that by-election

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  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Labour were 7/1 to win Peterborough yesterday. Also, the Tories were 100/1 and if 1,621 people had voted differently they would have won.
  • Labour -17%. Conservatives -25%

    The Tories are doing something to staunch their blood letting of voters.
    What are Labour doing...?

    Winning By Elections with increased majorities on reduced turnouts thats what.

    Celebrate Comrade

    Or more likely for you join the Wes Streeting Jess Phillips slapped ass fest.
    I am delighted we won - I'm not attacking Jezbollah because I want to lose, I'm doing it because we are losing.

    A win is a win. A small increase in the majority is definitely welcome.

    Then step away from this one byelection and look at the -17% share in vote. Then consider that we threw Momentum's kitchen sink at this. Then consider that according to us we had a Pakistani block vote firewall. We won't have those across the country in normal elections. But we could have the -17%.

    What happens if we -17% of our vote across the board? We lose.

    We need to understand why our voters stayed home or went LibDem. And then address their concerns. Or we lose.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Jewish Labour Movement calling for their new MP to be suspended from the Labour Party

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Icarus said:

    The Conservative Party is perhaps the Bismark de nos jours.

    JackW said:

    Any sign of HMS Mordaunt on the horizon?

    Better stay in port for the afternnon .... "Sink the Bismarck!" on Film4 presently .... but which Conservative is that doomed battleship ?!?
    I fear HMS Hood (CHUK) is done for !!!!!!!!!!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 28,150
    In the short to medium term, the Tories face the biggest challenge. As per Richard_N’s excellent post on the previous thread, there isn’t any Brexit resolution that brings them all together and that doesn’t alienate a significant slice of the electorate.

    In the longer term, I still think Labour has the bigger challenge. There simply isn’t any way to maintain the alliance between the working class and the educated intelligentsia given the trends of contemporary politics.
  • AndyJS said:

    edit

    A Tory-Brexit accommodation would potentially smash Labour and the LibDems. Getting there is another thing......
    It really would.
    Leave parties won the popular vote in Peterbough but having split their vote lost to a (notionally) remain candidate. If they coordinate they win and they win big.

    There could be a counter to this - a progressive alliance of remain parties. But that won't happen whilst The Jeremy and his supporters insist he remains on track to secure a majority of 704.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 24,625
    Dura_Ace said:

    Any sign of HMS Mordaunt on the horizon?

    Tied up in Pompey with CODLOG problems.
    CODLOG ?

    Is that counting up the bollocks ... ?
  • felixfelix Posts: 10,893

    IanB2 said:

    Wes Streeting: Many have asked how I can remain in the Labour Party given the above. I’m afraid this has become a reasonable question and the argument that staying means complicity is not without merit. I will be addressing this publicly, directly, at @LabourFirst:

    I shall have to tell people not to give me christmas presents this year.... Wes has it organised.

    In all seriousness if they believe the rubbish they spout then they can't really justify staying. I wouldn't be sitting in a party I thought was racist. Jess would join him if she had any morals.
    On this particular point you are absolutely right regarding Streeting and Philips - unfortunately you are sitting very comfortably in a party which has become institutionally racist.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,808

    Scott_P said:

    2. On Twitter, Conservative activists are already rolling out the "vote Farage, get Corbyn" line. That's fine except I'm not sure people will believe it. If the argument is "splitting the Brexit vote will let Labour in", why will Brexiteers side for a we-don't-know-what-Brexit-we-want party (the Conservatives) rather than a Brexit-right-now party (TBP)?

    This was aired on the Daily Politics and confirmed by Prof Curtice (pbuh)

    A vote for the Brexit candidate risks splitting the Leave vote and letting Labour in.

    A vote for the Tory candidate in the same seat risks splitting the Leave vote and letting Labour in.

    Without a pact, the parties of Brexit are locked in a FPTP deadly embrace.

    Shame...
    Fingers crossed a new Tory leader can resolve this with some clarity.

    What is going to change on Labour's side?
    The Conservatives could end this split by renouncing Brexit. Then, their support would go to TBP.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 21,996
    edited June 2019
    Icarus said:

    The Conservative Party is perhaps the Bismark de nos jours.

    JackW said:

    Any sign of HMS Mordaunt on the horizon?

    Better stay in port for the afternnon .... "Sink the Bismarck!" on Film4 presently .... but which Conservative is that doomed battleship ?!?
    Or the Tirpitz, impotently tied up and trying to avoid trouble, but getting mini subbed and bombed into uselessness.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 28,150

    AndyJS said:

    edit

    A Tory-Brexit accommodation would potentially smash Labour and the LibDems. Getting there is another thing......
    It really would.
    Leave parties won the popular vote in Peterbough but having split their vote lost to a (notionally) remain candidate. If they coordinate they win and they win big.

    There could be a counter to this - a progressive alliance of remain parties. But that won't happen whilst The Jeremy and his supporters insist he remains on track to secure a majority of 704.
    Those left voting for the Tory candidate were surely a mix of Tory remainers who would never vote for either Corbyn or Farage, and those happy with May’s compromise. The dedicated leavers were gone.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 24,745
    edited June 2019

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.

    So hang on, non-Labour WASP anti-Corbynites are infiltrating the Jewish Labour Movement and calling for the resignation of a Labour MP.

    Yes I see how this is very likely.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 40,916


    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Jewish Labour Movement calling for their new MP to be suspended from the Labour Party

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.
    Ah right it's all a conspiracy. Nothing to see here.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    TOPPING said:

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.

    So hang on, non-Labour WASP anti-Corbynites are infiltrating the Jewish Labour Movement and calling for the resignation of a Labour MP.

    Yes I see how this is very likely.
    It doesn't matter what you think is likely...

    Try to join. Let me know when you have successfully joined. You won't have to pretend to be Jewish or a current Labour supporter.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Wes Streeting: Many have asked how I can remain in the Labour Party given the above. I’m afraid this has become a reasonable question and the argument that staying means complicity is not without merit. I will be addressing this publicly, directly, at @LabourFirst:

    I shall have to tell people not to give me christmas presents this year.... Wes has it organised.

    In all seriousness if they believe the rubbish they spout then they can't really justify staying. I wouldn't be sitting in a party I thought was racist. Jess would join him if she had any morals.
    On this particular point you are absolutely right regarding Streeting and Philips - unfortunately you are sitting very comfortably in a party which has become institutionally racist.
    You vote Tory.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,591


    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Jewish Labour Movement calling for their new MP to be suspended from the Labour Party

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.
    So you’re quite happy that your new MP is a racist?
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,017
    IanB2 said:



    In the longer term, I still think Labour has the bigger challenge. There simply isn’t any way to maintain the alliance between the working class and the educated intelligentsia given the trends of contemporary politics.

    The Class data on the latest YouGov is instructive here.

    Labour and Tory split roughly 50/50 between ABC1 and C2DE

    Brexit Party is c33/66, and the Lib Dems 66/33

    If the long term trend is identity politics, then it's only going one way.


  • felixfelix Posts: 10,893
    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Jewish Labour Movement calling for their new MP to be suspended from the Labour Party

    Quite - surely she should have been suspended pending an inquiry. Or even dare one say it summarily AllyCampbelled!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 32,735
    A couple more tentative takes before I read the thread. People are willing to vote tactically to beat TBP. This time Lib Dem’s seem to have voted Labour which is why their vote was up only modestly.

    Secondly, the referendum brought out many non voters. They may have gone back to not voting again. And who could blame them? Democracy has turned out to be a bit of a joke. We don’t want to hear what they have to say.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited June 2019
    IanB2 said:

    In the short to medium term, the Tories face the biggest challenge. As per Richard_N’s excellent post on the previous thread, there isn’t any Brexit resolution that brings them all together and that doesn’t alienate a significant slice of the electorate.

    In the longer term, I still think Labour has the bigger challenge. There simply isn’t any way to maintain the alliance between the working class and the educated intelligentsia given the trends of contemporary politics.

    Labour will probably go the way of the Democrats - dump the working class in favour of identity politics, which can bring together the leftist intelligentsia with various classes of 'victims'.

    The main fly in that ointment is Labour's money comes from the working class via the Unions
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 2,303
    edited June 2019
    IanB2 said:

    In the short to medium term, the Tories face the biggest challenge. As per Richard_N’s excellent post on the previous thread, there isn’t any Brexit resolution that brings them all together and that doesn’t alienate a significant slice of the electorate.

    In the longer term, I still think Labour has the bigger challenge. There simply isn’t any way to maintain the alliance between the working class and the educated intelligentsia given the trends of contemporary politics.

    There's an argument that the political divide is becoming more 'Americanised' with WWC voters moving towards the right of the spectrum, although the big shift hasn't happened yet - the effects are only partial at the moment. We expected to see it in a much bigger way in GE2017 for instance.

    What I do find fascinating is that even these US-style coalitions look untenable in the long term (in America, too). There is a conflict on the right between populism and business, particularly seen here in the conflict between hard Brexiteers and the business community, and on the left as the socially liberal young metropolitan class takes over, there is the risk of a split between socialists and liberals.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 35,297
    Third big drop in Labour support at a Labour defence by-election this Parliament:

    Lewisham East: -18%
    Newport West: -13%
    Peterborough: -17%
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    Sandpit said:


    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Jewish Labour Movement calling for their new MP to be suspended from the Labour Party

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.
    So you’re quite happy that your new MP is a racist?
    You want Tommy Robinson to be Prime Minister?
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 2,303
    edited June 2019
    double-posted
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited June 2019
    Michael Gove is drifting in the betting. I do not know why, and am too tied up right now to look for reasons but mention it in case someone is about to lump on; perhaps it is nothing. (The Leadsom arb is back btw.)
  • felixfelix Posts: 10,893

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Wes Streeting: Many have asked how I can remain in the Labour Party given the above. I’m afraid this has become a reasonable question and the argument that staying means complicity is not without merit. I will be addressing this publicly, directly, at @LabourFirst:

    I shall have to tell people not to give me christmas presents this year.... Wes has it organised.

    In all seriousness if they believe the rubbish they spout then they can't really justify staying. I wouldn't be sitting in a party I thought was racist. Jess would join him if she had any morals.
    On this particular point you are absolutely right regarding Streeting and Philips - unfortunately you are sitting very comfortably in a party which has become institutionally racist.
    You vote Tory.
    A party which is by no means perfect but not in anything like the same level of denial.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 24,745
    edited June 2019

    TOPPING said:

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.

    So hang on, non-Labour WASP anti-Corbynites are infiltrating the Jewish Labour Movement and calling for the resignation of a Labour MP.

    Yes I see how this is very likely.
    It doesn't matter what you think is likely...

    Try to join. Let me know when you have successfully joined. You won't have to pretend to be Jewish or a current Labour supporter.
    No because my application to the Nigerian World Games triathlon squad is still pending.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037

    JackW said:

    IanB2 said:

    JackW said:

    7) This was a really good result for Labour.

    Er .....

    1. Worst result ever for a winning by-election candidate.
    2. Awful result nine years into Conservative government.
    3. Winning Labour candidate continues Labour "Jewish issues."
    4. Result confirms Labour 20% nationally - Curtice.
    5. More Peterborough "good result" nationally spells disaster for Labour.

    Probably fair to say that it was a mildly good result when an opposition on the cusp of becoming the government should have got a stonkingly good result.
    Not even "mildly good" but

    Tactically and short term on the plus side :

    1. Labour won
    2. Labour gained tactical LibDem and Green votes - Curtice
    3. Farage wet haddocked.

    Strategically - As my previous post.
    Cynically, as a Conservative, it's far better that Labour's antisemitic candidate won: that will dog them both locally and nationally - as opposed to TBP getting a toehold in Parliament.

    However I'd much rather have someone of Mike Greene's calibre in Parliament than Lisa Forbes, regardless of their views on Brexit.
    I think the Tories overestimate the electoral damage that continual accusations of antisemitism might cause Labour. This issue has been well-aired, any Labour voters who are going to desert the Party because of it have already gone and there is now such a welter of accusations and counter accusations that it is hard to separate fact from spin (which is not in any way to excuse Labour or say that there is no problem) but daily "revelations" about something somebody said on twitter are devaluing the currency and may well be having the opposite effect to that intended.
    I think the direct electoral damage is largely done. But the institutional damage is only just beginning. More MPs will probably leave. And plenty of otherwise decent Labour MPs debased themselves by campaigning for Forbes after this broke.

    PS I'm not talking Twitter, more the EHRC case.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    felix said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Wes Streeting: Many have asked how I can remain in the Labour Party given the above. I’m afraid this has become a reasonable question and the argument that staying means complicity is not without merit. I will be addressing this publicly, directly, at @LabourFirst:

    I shall have to tell people not to give me christmas presents this year.... Wes has it organised.

    In all seriousness if they believe the rubbish they spout then they can't really justify staying. I wouldn't be sitting in a party I thought was racist. Jess would join him if she had any morals.
    On this particular point you are absolutely right regarding Streeting and Philips - unfortunately you are sitting very comfortably in a party which has become institutionally racist.
    You vote Tory.
    A party which is by no means perfect but not in anything like the same level of denial.
    Why do you think the Tories have such a terrible vote return from BAME?

    And no it isn't because the minorities are evil....
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 35,297
    edited June 2019
    Fun facts:

    The Tories last won a Westminster by-election at Copeland in February 2017, it also happened to be a gain from Labour.

    The last time the Labour %-age share of the vote increased at a competitive* Westminster by-election was at Tooting in June 2016, a week before EURef.

    The last time Labour gained a seat at a Westminster by-election was at Corby in November 2012.

    [* Batley & Spen (Jo Cox's seat) wasn't competitive, given that the main parties gave Labour a free run]
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,191
    Sandpit said:


    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Jewish Labour Movement calling for their new MP to be suspended from the Labour Party

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.
    So you’re quite happy that your new MP is a racist?
    Tory and LD voters happy too tbf.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,464
    edited June 2019
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    2. On Twitter, Conservative activists are already rolling out the "vote Farage, get Corbyn" line. That's fine except I'm not sure people will believe it. If the argument is "splitting the Brexit vote will let Labour in", why will Brexiteers side for a we-don't-know-what-Brexit-we-want party (the Conservatives) rather than a Brexit-right-now party (TBP)?

    This was aired on the Daily Politics and confirmed by Prof Curtice (pbuh)

    A vote for the Brexit candidate risks splitting the Leave vote and letting Labour in.

    A vote for the Tory candidate in the same seat risks splitting the Leave vote and letting Labour in.

    Without a pact, the parties of Brexit are locked in a FPTP deadly embrace.

    Shame...
    Fingers crossed a new Tory leader can resolve this with some clarity.

    What is going to change on Labour's side?
    The Conservatives could end this split by renouncing Brexit. Then, their support would go to TBP.
    Could be the way to go in all honesty. A Ken Clarke/Dominic Grieve pro EU, pro business, anti high taxes one nation party. Get Jeremy Browne and David Laws to give it some orange book appeal too. Invite Soubry back (Not Wollaston or Allen !), Nick Boles too... Osborne can be the finance minister :)
    & call it the Tory party with the old torch logo ;)

    Change UK just looks weird with both Gapes and Soubry in it right now. In favour of foreign wars I guess...
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Dura_Ace said:

    JackW said:

    Any sign of HMS Mordaunt on the horizon?

    Better stay in port for the afternnon .... "Sink the Bismarck!" on Film4 presently .... but which Conservative is that doomed battleship ?!?
    The Bismarck was lost by confused bickering at the top (Lütjens vs Lindemann) and lack of discipline in communications so it's an apt comparison.
    We sank the Bismarck only after the Admiralty types were made to do their ties up properly by David Cameron's mum. :smile:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,591

    Sandpit said:


    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Jewish Labour Movement calling for their new MP to be suspended from the Labour Party

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.
    So you’re quite happy that your new MP is a racist?
    You want Tommy Robinson to be Prime Minister?
    No, and thankfully he isn’t a candidate. Unlike Jeremy Corbyn and his racist enablers.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037

    Michael Gove is drifting in the betting. I do not know why, and am too tied up right now to look for reasons but mention it in case someone is about to lump on; perhaps it is nothing. (The Leadsom arb is back btw.)

    Johnson shortened on the court case outcome. (Bit OTT, imo).
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.

    So hang on, non-Labour WASP anti-Corbynites are infiltrating the Jewish Labour Movement and calling for the resignation of a Labour MP.

    Yes I see how this is very likely.
    It doesn't matter what you think is likely...

    Try to join. Let me know when you have successfully joined. You won't have to pretend to be Jewish or a current Labour supporter.
    No because my application to the Nigerian World Games triathlon squad is still pending.
    Seems a bad comparison, as I think you would have to actually be Nigerian and probably have some level of fitness and ability to qualify.

    A better comparison might be joining your local library. As long as you haven't been specifically banned you are free to join, no racial or political affiliation requirements. Now imagine it had the same rules but was called the Jewish Labour library...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 19,711
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    eek said:

    Scott_P said:
    And what percentage of those same voters would think Raab is a suitable candidate to be PM? I better it's a lot fewer than the 47% backing Boris....
    As much as I instinctively dislike him, Gove is clearly head and shoulders above the lazy and incompetent Boris and the fatuous and ignorant Raab.
    Raab with his nonsense about proroguing Parliament is actively dangerous.
    Its the most worrying view I've seen in the race . I mean, I voted brexit too and wanted MPs to take us out long before now, but it is not worth any price for heavens sake. These Tory Brexiteers are nuts, or know it's wrong to suggest such things but only care that the party members like to hear it, which is worse.

    The best way forward is Boris becomes leader, dumps the Customs Union on even a temporary basis from the political declaration but otherwise still agrees the Withdrawal Agreement with the EU.

    If he can renegotiate the backstop with the EU perhaps with Gove as Brexit Secretary all to the good as the Brady amendment showed there is a majority for that in the Commons, if not he should go into a general election promising a FTA for GB and keeping the backstop for Northern Ireland until a technical solution is found to the Irish border there. If he has to start the DUP so be it, as the European elections in NI showed it is now the Alliance Party voters who are the key swing voters in the province anyway, the DUP does not have a majority there
    The thing that Boris can do that May could never countenance is to say that if there is even a hint of bad faith going forward into the trade negotiations by the EU, he will abrogate the whole Treaty. Not his deal, never believed in it, but for now, will try to make it work.....

    Might be enough to get the WA over the line.
    As a Leaver Boris may be more trusted to deliver by Brexit backing MPs than May was as a Remainer yes
    Boris may be more trusted......

    Really?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Icarus said:

    The Conservative Party is perhaps the Bismark de nos jours.

    JackW said:

    Any sign of HMS Mordaunt on the horizon?

    Better stay in port for the afternnon .... "Sink the Bismarck!" on Film4 presently .... but which Conservative is that doomed battleship ?!?
    Or the Tirpitz, impotently tied up and trying to avoid trouble, but getting mini subbed and bombed into uselessness.
    Perhaps the smaller Conservative Party is no longer of the battleship class !! .... more a heavy cruiser - Prinz Eugen

    CHUK - Pleasure boat on the Thames shipping water .....
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:


    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Jewish Labour Movement calling for their new MP to be suspended from the Labour Party

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.
    So you’re quite happy that your new MP is a racist?
    You want Tommy Robinson to be Prime Minister?
    No, and thankfully he isn’t a candidate. Unlike Jeremy Corbyn and his racist enablers.
    That is strange because that is clearly what you said in your last post.

    I mean surely I wouldn't have responded to your post with a question which states something you didn't say because that would just be stupid....

    Also funny you claim to not want racists when you are a Tory voter, strange disconnect....
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 35,297
    JackW said:

    Icarus said:

    The Conservative Party is perhaps the Bismark de nos jours.

    JackW said:

    Any sign of HMS Mordaunt on the horizon?

    Better stay in port for the afternnon .... "Sink the Bismarck!" on Film4 presently .... but which Conservative is that doomed battleship ?!?
    Or the Tirpitz, impotently tied up and trying to avoid trouble, but getting mini subbed and bombed into uselessness.
    Perhaps the smaller Conservative Party is no longer of the battleship class !! .... more a heavy cruiser - Prinz Eugen

    CHUK - Pleasure boat on the Thames shipping water .....
    Prinz Eugen was Germany's last large warship afloat at the end of the war.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    DavidL said:

    A couple more tentative takes before I read the thread. People are willing to vote tactically to beat TBP. This time Lib Dem’s seem to have voted Labour which is why their vote was up only modestly.

    Secondly, the referendum brought out many non voters. They may have gone back to not voting again. And who could blame them? Democracy has turned out to be a bit of a joke. We don’t want to hear what they have to say.

    The turnout at the Peterborough by-election was 48%. I think that's historically quite good for a by-election and it comes after the electors in the constituency have had separate ballots for the recall petition, local elections and European elections.

    That looks like a determination to go out and vote to me.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Michael Gove is drifting in the betting. I do not know why, and am too tied up right now to look for reasons but mention it in case someone is about to lump on; perhaps it is nothing. (The Leadsom arb is back btw.)

    Johnson shortened on the court case outcome. (Bit OTT, imo).
    Hadn't seen that. Yes.

    Though Gove is now a little longer than Hunt. It could be that punters see Gove and Boris as competing for the same voters, and Hunt on the other wing, or it might just be overreaction. Gove has, I think, trying to edge over to the soft Brexit camp.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 28,150
    edited June 2019
    MTimT said:

    IanB2 said:

    In the short to medium term, the Tories face the biggest challenge. As per Richard_N’s excellent post on the previous thread, there isn’t any Brexit resolution that brings them all together and that doesn’t alienate a significant slice of the electorate.

    In the longer term, I still think Labour has the bigger challenge. There simply isn’t any way to maintain the alliance between the working class and the educated intelligentsia given the trends of contemporary politics.

    Labour will probably go the way of the Democrats - dump the working class in favour of identity politics, which can bring together the leftist intelligentsia with various classes of 'victims'.

    The main fly in that ointment is Labour's money comes from the working class via the Unions
    Yes. As per Degler's classic American history, the political system in America took shape after the working class had won most of its victories for recognition and representation. Whereas in the UK the Labour Party was born from the working class struggle and this still infuses its culture and structure. I don't think Labour can leave its past behind, and objectively the LibDems are the vehicle more suited to representing the liberal middle classes.

    If we had PR, we'd be well into this transition by now.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 14,058
    AndyJS said:

    Labour were 7/1 to win Peterborough yesterday. Also, the Tories were 100/1 and if 1,621 people had voted differently they would have won.

    Good point. I did the 7s on Labour, thus happy as larry, but the 100 on the Tories in the light of the actual result was the better value (albeit losing) bet.

    In fact this was in the grand scheme of things a better result for the Tories than for Labour.

    The betting reflects this - the Tories have shortened for the next GE and Labour have lengthened as a consequence of this by-election.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 24,348

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:


    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Jewish Labour Movement calling for their new MP to be suspended from the Labour Party

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.
    So you’re quite happy that your new MP is a racist?
    You want Tommy Robinson to be Prime Minister?
    No, and thankfully he isn’t a candidate. Unlike Jeremy Corbyn and his racist enablers.
    That is strange because that is clearly what you said in your last post.

    I mean surely I wouldn't have responded to your post with a question which states something you didn't say because that would just be stupid....

    Also funny you claim to not want racists when you are a Tory voter, strange disconnect....
    It's sad that this needs to be said once again, but here goes:

    Those who deny and excuse racism on their side, but condemn it when it's on the 'enemy's' side, are not anti-racists. They're enablers of racism.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 24,745
    edited June 2019

    Seems a bad comparison, as I think you would have to actually be Nigerian and probably have some level of fitness and ability to qualify.

    A better comparison might be joining your local library. As long as you haven't been specifically banned you are free to join, no racial or political affiliation requirements. Now imagine it had the same rules but was called the Jewish Labour library...

    Which I'm sure for purposes of identification Mr Corbyn would prefer but I digress.

    You are saying that the Jewish Labour Movement has been infiltrated by non-Jewish non-Labour anti-Jezzites. Does that seem logical to you?

    Now I know that you are a virulent anti-racist and deplore racism but on this issue, the one of Jeremy Corbyn having created a Labour Party within which racism is tolerated if not tacitly encouraged, you seem to have a blind spot.

    Even if he is not anti-semitic (big if) he has presided over a Labour Party within which anti-semites are emboldened. This has resulted in the election in Peterborough only yesterday of a woman who if not anti-semitic is very very stupid. Because why else would she have liked a post referring to a “Zionist Slave Masters agenda”. And she felt able to like this post because she knew that her boss was if not of the same opinion (likely) then at least sympathetic to the view.

    And yet you are firing away at everyone right, left and Chelsea about their problems when the matter under discussion is Peterborough.

    By all means write a thread on the Cons' racism and we can have that discussion then.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037

    Michael Gove is drifting in the betting. I do not know why, and am too tied up right now to look for reasons but mention it in case someone is about to lump on; perhaps it is nothing. (The Leadsom arb is back btw.)

    Johnson shortened on the court case outcome. (Bit OTT, imo).
    Hadn't seen that. Yes.

    Though Gove is now a little longer than Hunt. It could be that punters see Gove and Boris as competing for the same voters, and Hunt on the other wing, or it might just be overreaction. Gove has, I think, trying to edge over to the soft Brexit camp.
    If we assume Boris has enough to make the members (I don't!) then the MPs opposed to him need someone acceptable they can plausibly beat him with, over the course of a campaign. Gove makes the most logical sense, as an architect of Vote Leave, but there is still quite a large membership vote against him because of his perceived disloyalty in the last campaign (and not just amongst Boris fans). Hunt seems to be best placed amongst the MPs but if they decide they need a cheerier Leaver to take on Boris then perhaps Penny could steam through?
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    I said that Labour would get thumped in Peterborough. I suppose they still did, in a way, but they still won, and I was wrong. Impressive pavement politics from them. But bad for those who want Corbyn out, which is 80-90% of the country. Oh well.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,591

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:


    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Jewish Labour Movement calling for their new MP to be suspended from the Labour Party

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.
    So you’re quite happy that your new MP is a racist?
    You want Tommy Robinson to be Prime Minister?
    No, and thankfully he isn’t a candidate. Unlike Jeremy Corbyn and his racist enablers.
    That is strange because that is clearly what you said in your last post.

    I mean surely I wouldn't have responded to your post with a question which states something you didn't say because that would just be stupid....

    Also funny you claim to not want racists when you are a Tory voter, strange disconnect....
    What does Lisa Forbes being racist have anything to do with Tommy Robinson?

    Feel free to point me to racist comments by Conservative candidates, and I’ll happily condemn them.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 21,996
    edited June 2019
    JackW said:

    Icarus said:

    The Conservative Party is perhaps the Bismark de nos jours.

    JackW said:

    Any sign of HMS Mordaunt on the horizon?

    Better stay in port for the afternnon .... "Sink the Bismarck!" on Film4 presently .... but which Conservative is that doomed battleship ?!?
    Or the Tirpitz, impotently tied up and trying to avoid trouble, but getting mini subbed and bombed into uselessness.
    Perhaps the smaller Conservative Party is no longer of the battleship class !! .... more a heavy cruiser - Prinz Eugen

    CHUK - Pleasure boat on the Thames shipping water .....

    Graf Spee.
    Which contender will take command, realise the situation is hopeless, give the order to scuttle and retire to their cabin with a revolver?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    After "Sink The Bismarck" those PBers intent on an afternoon of b/w WWII British films with Kenneth More may indulge in "Reach For The Sky" at 3:00pm on BBC2.

    Tally-Ho
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,808
    edited June 2019
    DavidL said:

    A couple more tentative takes before I read the thread. People are willing to vote tactically to beat TBP. This time Lib Dem’s seem to have voted Labour which is why their vote was up only modestly.

    Secondly, the referendum brought out many non voters. They may have gone back to not voting again. And who could blame them? Democracy has turned out to be a bit of a joke. We don’t want to hear what they have to say.

    I don't think there was that much tactical voting. Labour's vote share was very much in line with expectations. The surprise was the Conservative vote share didn't fall much further.

    That said, a drop of -24% is still dire. It's just we were expecting a fall of 30%+
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037
    Danny Finkelstein has reviewed Aaron Bastani:
  • Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,158
    Pleased to see the High Court has, not unexpectedly, thrown out the attempt to prosecute Boris. Quite right too. I am surprised the first instance judge allowed it to get this far last week. But justice seems to have been done, and it should be an interesting judgment when released in due course.

    Perhaps Boris might now screw Mr Ball and his funders for his legal costs of today's hearing?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    TOPPING said:

    Seems a bad comparison, as I think you would have to actually be Nigerian and probably have some level of fitness and ability to qualify.

    A better comparison might be joining your local library. As long as you haven't been specifically banned you are free to join, no racial or political affiliation requirements. Now imagine it had the same rules but was called the Jewish Labour library...

    Which I'm sure for purposes of identification Mr Corbyn would prefer but I digress.

    You are saying that the Jewish Labour Movement has been infiltrated by non-Jewish non-Labour anti-Jezzites. Does that seem logical to you?

    Now I know that you are a virulent anti-racist and deplore racism but on this issue, the one of Jeremy Corbyn having created a Labour Party within which racism is tolerated if not tacitly encouraged, you seem to have a blind spot.

    Even if he is not anti-semitic (big if) he has presided over a Labour Party within which anti-semites are emboldened. This has resulted in the election in Peterborough only yesterday of a woman who if not anti-semitic is very very stupid. Because why else would she have liked a post referring to a “Zionist Slave Masters agenda”. And she felt able to like this post because she knew that her boss was if not of the same opinion (likely) then at least sympathetic to the view.

    And yet you are firing away at everyone right, left and Chelsea about their problems when the matter under discussion is Peterborough.

    By all means write a thread on the Cons' racism and we can have that discussion then.
    I'm not sure why you struggle with reading?

    Infiltrate?

    It isn't some kind of secret, I explained to you that you do not have to lie and claim to be Jewish or a Labour supporter. I am not revealing any secrets here.

    It is no more infiltration than you joining your local library.

    Anti semitism has gone down among Labour voters since Corbyn's election. In fairness that could be partially because Labour has lost older voters (who tend to have more racists as a % ) and gained younger ones who are less prejudiced.

    Let's be honest here if you were really concerned about racism rather than just scoring political points you wouldn't be a Tory voter.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,741
    I think that what @TheJezzah is trying to show is that you don't have to prove you are anti-Semitic in order to join the Labour Party.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611

    Danny Finkelstein has reviewed Aaron Bastani:

    Given Finkelstein was a board member of the notorious Gatestone institute it really isn't surprising to see him mocking the work of someone with a Muslim background without even reading it.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I think that what @TheJezzah is trying to show is that you don't have to prove you are anti-Semitic in order to join the Labour Party.

    but it helps?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    A correct decision by the court today .

    Regardless of your feelings towards Johnson this would have set a dangerous precedent.

    If the Commons wants to legislate for standards in public office or hold politicians more to account that’s fine but you can’t have courts intervening in this manner .

    I’m not alone as a Remainer being happy about today’s decision . Many Remain supporting legal experts have put aside that to look at the bigger picture and fully support the judges today .

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,741
    Scott_P said:

    I think that what @TheJezzah is trying to show is that you don't have to prove you are anti-Semitic in order to join the Labour Party.

    but it helps?
    It certainly helps keep you there once you've joined.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    Icarus said:

    The Conservative Party is perhaps the Bismark de nos jours.

    JackW said:

    Any sign of HMS Mordaunt on the horizon?

    Better stay in port for the afternnon .... "Sink the Bismarck!" on Film4 presently .... but which Conservative is that doomed battleship ?!?
    Or the Tirpitz, impotently tied up and trying to avoid trouble, but getting mini subbed and bombed into uselessness.
    Perhaps the smaller Conservative Party is no longer of the battleship class !! .... more a heavy cruiser - Prinz Eugen

    CHUK - Pleasure boat on the Thames shipping water .....
    Prinz Eugen was Germany's last large warship afloat at the end of the war.
    You mean after the next general election the Conservatives safest seat of North East Hampshire will be the only Tory seat after three recounts !!!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 24,348

    Danny Finkelstein has reviewed Aaron Bastani:

    Given Finkelstein was a board member of the notorious Gatestone institute it really isn't surprising to see him mocking the work of someone with a Muslim background without even reading it.
    Doesn't he deny that he was?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2019
    O/T

    It's an interesting coincidence that the only two matches to be washed out at the 1992 cricket world cup (the last time they used the same round robin format as this year) were Sri Lanka v India and England v Pakistan, and it looks like today's match may be washed out, which is Pakistan v Sri Lanka.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 24,745
    edited June 2019

    I'm not sure why you struggle with reading?

    Infiltrate?

    It isn't some kind of secret, I explained to you that you do not have to lie and claim to be Jewish or a Labour supporter. I am not revealing any secrets here.

    It is no more infiltration than you joining your local library.

    Anti semitism has gone down among Labour voters since Corbyn's election. In fairness that could be partially because Labour has lost older voters (who tend to have more racists as a % ) and gained younger ones who are less prejudiced.

    Let's be honest here if you were really concerned about racism rather than just scoring political points you wouldn't be a Tory voter.

    Happy to be honest here. I think for the purposes you describe (non-Jewish anti-Corbynites joining the, er, Jewish Labour Movement) "infiltrate" is a perfectly adequate description.

    Now as to the Tories and their racism, it undoubtedly exists. I have already mentioned that if Boris becomes leader I will resign my membership and this is as much on account of his casual racism as his buffoonery.

    But it is not institutionalised as it appears to be within Labour starting at the very top. Corbyn has for years and years sympathised and associated with anti-semites so it would be a wonder if the party he now leads didn't contain those who agree with those views. Theresa May similarly? Not a chance.

    So yes of course some crusty Tory Colonels might be racist but to say the Tory Party as a whole is racist is as much a generalisation as saying that all working class Labour supporters are racist and prejudiced. Are they? Of course not. Can you honestly say that none are? Likewise, of course not.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 15,023
    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    It's an interesting coincidence that the only two matches to be washed out at the 1992 cricket world cup (the last time they used the same round robin format as this year) were Sri Lanka v Pakistan and England v Pakistan, and it looks like today's match may be washed out, which is Pakistan v Sri Lanka.

    It was India v Sri Lanka that was washed out in 1992.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 24,745
    edited June 2019

    Scott_P said:

    I think that what @TheJezzah is trying to show is that you don't have to prove you are anti-Semitic in order to join the Labour Party.

    but it helps?
    It certainly helps keep you there once you've joined.
    Like Hugo Rifkind's quizzing by the LibDems: are you planning to bring the party into disrepute? Is it obligatory?
  • felixfelix Posts: 10,893

    felix said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Wes Streeting: Many have asked how I can remain in the Labour Party given the above. I’m afraid this has become a reasonable question and the argument that staying means complicity is not without merit. I will be addressing this publicly, directly, at @LabourFirst:

    I shall have to tell people not to give me christmas presents this year.... Wes has it organised.

    In all seriousness if they believe the rubbish they spout then they can't really justify staying. I wouldn't be sitting in a party I thought was racist. Jess would join him if she had any morals.
    On this particular point you are absolutely right regarding Streeting and Philips - unfortunately you are sitting very comfortably in a party which has become institutionally racist.
    You vote Tory.
    A party which is by no means perfect but not in anything like the same level of denial.
    Why do you think the Tories have such a terrible vote return from BAME?

    And no it isn't because the minorities are evil....
    The simplest answer is based on wealth and class. Why is Labour so embroiled in anti-semitism - because everyone knows the problem starts and ends with the leader?
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 332
    JackW said:

    Any sign of HMS Mordaunt on the horizon?

    Better stay in port for the afternnon .... "Sink the Bismarck!" on Film4 presently .... but which Conservative is that doomed battleship ?!?
    A great film. It is also one of the large collection of films of the era that celebrate the "brilliant intuition" of our chaps, getting in to the mind of the enemy (c.f. most of the equally brilliant movies about the North Africa campaign), that turn out to be "intuition derived from someone reading the Bletchley decrypts".
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,150
    Scott_P said:
    "Once you remove the reasons for voting for Boris, I'm in with a shout!"

    Er.....
  • felixfelix Posts: 10,893
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:


    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Jewish Labour Movement calling for their new MP to be suspended from the Labour Party

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.
    So you’re quite happy that your new MP is a racist?
    You want Tommy Robinson to be Prime Minister?
    No, and thankfully he isn’t a candidate. Unlike Jeremy Corbyn and his racist enablers.
    That is strange because that is clearly what you said in your last post.

    I mean surely I wouldn't have responded to your post with a question which states something you didn't say because that would just be stupid....

    Also funny you claim to not want racists when you are a Tory voter, strange disconnect....
    What does Lisa Forbes being racist have anything to do with Tommy Robinson?

    Feel free to point me to racist comments by Conservative candidates, and I’ll happily condemn them.
    Scott_P said:

    I think that what @TheJezzah is trying to show is that you don't have to prove you are anti-Semitic in order to join the Labour Party.

    but it helps?
    And it's a shoe-in if you wanna be the leader.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Nadal bt Federer 6:3 6:4 6:2
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    TOPPING said:

    I'm not sure why you struggle with reading?

    Infiltrate?

    It isn't some kind of secret, I explained to you that you do not have to lie and claim to be Jewish or a Labour supporter. I am not revealing any secrets here.

    It is no more infiltration than you joining your local library.

    Anti semitism has gone down among Labour voters since Corbyn's election. In fairness that could be partially because Labour has lost older voters (who tend to have more racists as a % ) and gained younger ones who are less prejudiced.

    Let's be honest here if you were really concerned about racism rather than just scoring political points you wouldn't be a Tory voter.

    Happy to be honest here. I think for the purposes you describe (non-Jewish anti-Corbynites joining the, er, Jewish Labour Movement) "infiltrate" is a perfectly adequate description.

    Now as to the Tories and their racism, it undoubtedly exists. I have already mentioned that if Boris becomes leader I will resign my membership and this is as much on account of his casual racism as his buffoonery.

    But it is not institutionalised as it appears to be within Labour starting at the very top. Corbyn has for years and years of sympathised and associated with anti-semites so it would be a wonder if the party he now leads didn't contain those who didn't agree with those views. Theresa May similarly? Not a chance.

    So yes of course some crusty Tory Colonels might be racist but to say the Tory Party as a whole is racist is as much a generalisation as saying that all working class Labour supporters are racist and prejudiced. Are they? Of course not. Can you honestly say that none are? Likewise, of course not.
    Infiltrate isn't what you have to do. Go to them, tell them the truth and you can join up. It is as much infiltration as me going to my local shop. Your attempts to turn everything into a conspiracy are quite anti semitic TBH.

    Theresa May, Windrush, Go Home vans, Saudi Arabia, Russian Donors. Your party is racist from top to bottom and actively enacts racist policies... Why do you think BAME voters actively vote against you?1

    I realise you are a right winger so look past or support most of this stuff but you have to realise to people who don't support racism it just looks like supreme hypocrisy to sit there and complain about racism.

    Contrast and compare Labour and the Tories, Boris Johnson would never have got away with insults Jews in a newspaper article like he did Muslims if he was Labour. As it was no punishment because people on the right think that is fine.

    Theresa May is a god damn racist, look at her policies, look at her allies and the majority of the Tory party supports this crap. Rotten to the core.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,150
    JackW said:

    After "Sink The Bismarck" those PBers intent on an afternoon of b/w WWII British films with Kenneth More may indulge in "Reach For The Sky" at 3:00pm on BBC2.

    Tally-Ho

    I once flew from Schipol to Hannover with KLM.

    I was the only passenger.

    As we came in to land, the Captain played over the tannoy "Sink the Bismarck" by Johnny Horton.

    And that wasn't the most bizarre thing about that flight....
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 6,357
    nico67 said:

    A correct decision by the court today .

    Regardless of your feelings towards Johnson this would have set a dangerous precedent.

    If the Commons wants to legislate for standards in public office or hold politicians more to account that’s fine but you can’t have courts intervening in this manner .

    I’m not alone as a Remainer being happy about today’s decision . Many Remain supporting legal experts have put aside that to look at the bigger picture and fully support the judges today .

    As a Remainer I agree.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 48,592



    Infiltrate isn't what you have to do. Go to them, tell them the truth and you can join up. It is as much infiltration as me going to my local shop. Your attempts to turn everything into a conspiracy are quite anti semitic TBH.

    Theresa May, Windrush, Go Home vans, Saudi Arabia, Russian Donors. Your party is racist from top to bottom and actively enacts racist policies... Why do you think BAME voters actively vote against you?1

    I realise you are a right winger so look past or support most of this stuff but you have to realise to people who don't support racism it just looks like supreme hypocrisy to sit there and complain about racism.

    Contrast and compare Labour and the Tories, Boris Johnson would never have got away with insults Jews in a newspaper article like he did Muslims if he was Labour. As it was no punishment because people on the right think that is fine.

    Theresa May is a god damn racist, look at her policies, look at her allies and the majority of the Tory party supports this crap. Rotten to the core.

    Aren’t you forgetting that the Windrush scandal began under Labour? And I’m not sure how “Russian donors” constitutes racist behaviour... lol
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 28,150

    Scott_P said:
    "Once you remove the reasons for voting for Boris, I'm in with a shout!"

    Er.....
    Almost up there with HY in terms of logical reasoning...
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    After "Sink The Bismarck" those PBers intent on an afternoon of b/w WWII British films with Kenneth More may indulge in "Reach For The Sky" at 3:00pm on BBC2.

    Tally-Ho

    I once flew from Schipol to Hannover with KLM.

    I was the only passenger.

    As we came in to land, the Captain played over the tannoy "Sink the Bismarck" by Johnny Horton.

    And that wasn't the most bizarre thing about that flight....
    Tell us more after the watershed .... :smiley:
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 5,407

    Danny Finkelstein has reviewed Aaron Bastani:

    Given Finkelstein was a board member of the notorious Gatestone institute it really isn't surprising to see him mocking the work of someone with a Muslim background without even reading it.
    Bastani is a creep.
    There is an entertaining thread on Twitter somewhere about his unusual relationship with the truth in his PhD thesis.
    He’s a sock puppet for extreme Corbynism.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611

    Danny Finkelstein has reviewed Aaron Bastani:

    Given Finkelstein was a board member of the notorious Gatestone institute it really isn't surprising to see him mocking the work of someone with a Muslim background without even reading it.
    Bastani is a creep.
    There is an entertaining thread on Twitter somewhere about his unusual relationship with the truth in his PhD thesis.
    He’s a sock puppet for extreme Corbynism.
    Jeremy Duns is a bit of a nutter from what I've seen, I'd be wary of taking what he says at face value...
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 3,914

    Labour -17%. Conservatives -25%

    The Tories are doing something to staunch their blood letting of voters.
    What are Labour doing...?

    Winning By Elections with increased majorities on reduced turnouts thats what.

    Celebrate Comrade

    Or more likely for you join the Wes Streeting Jess Phillips slapped ass fest.
    I can understand you being desperate for a bit of good news but you are scraping the barrel now. The opposition just held a seat in a by-election losing 17% of its vote in the process. To make matters worse the new MP is immediately embroiled in an anti-semitism row despite Labour repeatedly failing to put the issue to bed. The only thing worth celebrating is that it could have been a lot worse and it did wipe the smug smirk off Farage's face.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    edited June 2019
    RobD said:



    Infiltrate isn't what you have to do. Go to them, tell them the truth and you can join up. It is as much infiltration as me going to my local shop. Your attempts to turn everything into a conspiracy are quite anti semitic TBH.

    Theresa May, Windrush, Go Home vans, Saudi Arabia, Russian Donors. Your party is racist from top to bottom and actively enacts racist policies... Why do you think BAME voters actively vote against you?1

    I realise you are a right winger so look past or support most of this stuff but you have to realise to people who don't support racism it just looks like supreme hypocrisy to sit there and complain about racism.

    Contrast and compare Labour and the Tories, Boris Johnson would never have got away with insults Jews in a newspaper article like he did Muslims if he was Labour. As it was no punishment because people on the right think that is fine.

    Theresa May is a god damn racist, look at her policies, look at her allies and the majority of the Tory party supports this crap. Rotten to the core.

    Aren’t you forgetting that the Windrush scandal began under Labour? And I’m not sure how “Russian donors” constitutes racist behaviour... lol
    The Conservatives took it to extreme levels, such was their desire to satisfy the frothing right wingers, not that Labour should be excused for trying to win over Tories with racism in the first place...

    He made a complaint about foreigners Jezza had met so I added a few of the Tories friends.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 3,914


    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Jewish Labour Movement calling for their new MP to be suspended from the Labour Party

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.

    and all that you and your illustrious leader appear to be doing is excusing and condoning it. Labour is going to regret not addressing the issue promptly and decisively, it could well cost them the next election if the margins remain tight.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    mwadams said:

    JackW said:

    Any sign of HMS Mordaunt on the horizon?

    Better stay in port for the afternnon .... "Sink the Bismarck!" on Film4 presently .... but which Conservative is that doomed battleship ?!?
    A great film. It is also one of the large collection of films of the era that celebrate the "brilliant intuition" of our chaps, getting in to the mind of the enemy (c.f. most of the equally brilliant movies about the North Africa campaign), that turn out to be "intuition derived from someone reading the Bletchley decrypts".
    More Scandinavian resistance agents than decrypts based on this account of Scottish pilots and the Bismarck
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36387863
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    JackW said:

    After "Sink The Bismarck" those PBers intent on an afternoon of b/w WWII British films with Kenneth More may indulge in "Reach For The Sky" at 3:00pm on BBC2.

    Tally-Ho

    I once flew from Schipol to Hannover with KLM.

    I was the only passenger.

    As we came in to land, the Captain played over the tannoy "Sink the Bismarck" by Johnny Horton.

    And that wasn't the most bizarre thing about that flight....

    Were you in a Spitfire?

  • RobDRobD Posts: 48,592

    RobD said:



    Infiltrate isn't what you have to do. Go to them, tell them the truth and you can join up. It is as much infiltration as me going to my local shop. Your attempts to turn everything into a conspiracy are quite anti semitic TBH.

    Theresa May, Windrush, Go Home vans, Saudi Arabia, Russian Donors. Your party is racist from top to bottom and actively enacts racist policies... Why do you think BAME voters actively vote against you?1

    I realise you are a right winger so look past or support most of this stuff but you have to realise to people who don't support racism it just looks like supreme hypocrisy to sit there and complain about racism.

    Contrast and compare Labour and the Tories, Boris Johnson would never have got away with insults Jews in a newspaper article like he did Muslims if he was Labour. As it was no punishment because people on the right think that is fine.

    Theresa May is a god damn racist, look at her policies, look at her allies and the majority of the Tory party supports this crap. Rotten to the core.

    Aren’t you forgetting that the Windrush scandal began under Labour? And I’m not sure how “Russian donors” constitutes racist behaviour... lol
    The Conservatives took it to extreme levels, such was there desire to satisfy the frothing right wingers, not that Labour should be excused for trying to win over Tories with racism in the first place...

    He made a complaint about foreigners Jezza had met so I added a few of the Tories friends.
    Took it to extreme levels? I thought the policy hadn’t changed much.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 56,046

    Michael Gove is drifting in the betting. I do not know why, and am too tied up right now to look for reasons but mention it in case someone is about to lump on; perhaps it is nothing. (The Leadsom arb is back btw.)

    Johnson shortened on the court case outcome. (Bit OTT, imo).
    Hadn't seen that. Yes.

    Though Gove is now a little longer than Hunt. It could be that punters see Gove and Boris as competing for the same voters, and Hunt on the other wing, or it might just be overreaction. Gove has, I think, trying to edge over to the soft Brexit camp.
    If we assume Boris has enough to make the members (I don't!) then the MPs opposed to him need someone acceptable they can plausibly beat him with, over the course of a campaign. Gove makes the most logical sense, as an architect of Vote Leave, but there is still quite a large membership vote against him because of his perceived disloyalty in the last campaign (and not just amongst Boris fans). Hunt seems to be best placed amongst the MPs but if they decide they need a cheerier Leaver to take on Boris then perhaps Penny could steam through?
    How will Boris not have enough? Hes got around 50 already and if the alternatives are Hunt and Gove he surely gets more harder Brexiteer votes. It's not far off then that Gove and Hunt would need to split the rest just right to both beat Boris.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 24,745
    edited June 2019

    Infiltrate isn't what you have to do. Go to them, tell them the truth and you can join up. It is as much infiltration as me going to my local shop. Your attempts to turn everything into a conspiracy are quite anti semitic TBH.

    Theresa May, Windrush, Go Home vans, Saudi Arabia, Russian Donors. Your party is racist from top to bottom and actively enacts racist policies... Why do you think BAME voters actively vote against you?1

    I realise you are a right winger so look past or support most of this stuff but you have to realise to people who don't support racism it just looks like supreme hypocrisy to sit there and complain about racism.

    Contrast and compare Labour and the Tories, Boris Johnson would never have got away with insults Jews in a newspaper article like he did Muslims if he was Labour. As it was no punishment because people on the right think that is fine.

    Theresa May is a god damn racist, look at her policies, look at her allies and the majority of the Tory party supports this crap. Rotten to the core.

    The more you shout the less convincing you are. And you were starting from a low base.

    As has been pointed out the hostile environment began under that noted racist Gordon Brown (btw what mug are you drinking your Lapsang Souchong from?).

    https://theguardian.com/politics/2009/nov/12/gordon-brown-announces-new-immigration-rules

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18539472

    And here's a good thread about Labour:

    https://twitter.com/bloomfieldsj/status/1066774288718536708

    It was at that time, and again subsequently under the Conservatives, a response to a country that had voted for lower immigration. It doesn't do it for me but immigration has been an issue for governments for the past two or three decades. I don't think the Conservatives were any better or worse at it.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    OllyT said:


    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Jewish Labour Movement calling for their new MP to be suspended from the Labour Party

    You don't have to be Jewish or Labour to be in it...

    More accurately you could say a movement has called for the new MP to be suspended, as many joined up out of opposition to Corbyn you could say an anti Corbyn movement has called for Labours new MP to be suspended.

    Quite frankly it doesn't mean much more than the CUKs calling for it.

    and all that you and your illustrious leader appear to be doing is excusing and condoning it. Labour is going to regret not addressing the issue promptly and decisively, it could well cost them the next election if the margins remain tight.
    They complain because Corbyn is leader, they have made clear they don't want him as leader. Fine, I am not particularly interested in their opinion.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037
    kle4 said:

    Michael Gove is drifting in the betting. I do not know why, and am too tied up right now to look for reasons but mention it in case someone is about to lump on; perhaps it is nothing. (The Leadsom arb is back btw.)

    Johnson shortened on the court case outcome. (Bit OTT, imo).
    Hadn't seen that. Yes.

    Though Gove is now a little longer than Hunt. It could be that punters see Gove and Boris as competing for the same voters, and Hunt on the other wing, or it might just be overreaction. Gove has, I think, trying to edge over to the soft Brexit camp.
    If we assume Boris has enough to make the members (I don't!) then the MPs opposed to him need someone acceptable they can plausibly beat him with, over the course of a campaign. Gove makes the most logical sense, as an architect of Vote Leave, but there is still quite a large membership vote against him because of his perceived disloyalty in the last campaign (and not just amongst Boris fans). Hunt seems to be best placed amongst the MPs but if they decide they need a cheerier Leaver to take on Boris then perhaps Penny could steam through?
    How will Boris not have enough? Hes got around 50 already and if the alternatives are Hunt and Gove he surely gets more harder Brexiteer votes. It's not far off then that Gove and Hunt would need to split the rest just right to both beat Boris.
    He's got 50 backers, but they might not all vote for him. I agree it's looking much likelier than at the start of the process though: he's running a good campaign.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    TOPPING said:

    Infiltrate isn't what you have to do. Go to them, tell them the truth and you can join up. It is as much infiltration as me going to my local shop. Your attempts to turn everything into a conspiracy are quite anti semitic TBH.

    Theresa May, Windrush, Go Home vans, Saudi Arabia, Russian Donors. Your party is racist from top to bottom and actively enacts racist policies... Why do you think BAME voters actively vote against you?1

    I realise you are a right winger so look past or support most of this stuff but you have to realise to people who don't support racism it just looks like supreme hypocrisy to sit there and complain about racism.

    Contrast and compare Labour and the Tories, Boris Johnson would never have got away with insults Jews in a newspaper article like he did Muslims if he was Labour. As it was no punishment because people on the right think that is fine.

    Theresa May is a god damn racist, look at her policies, look at her allies and the majority of the Tory party supports this crap. Rotten to the core.

    The more you shout the less convincing you are. And you were starting from a low base.

    As has been pointed out the hostile environment began under that noted racist Gordon Brown (btw what mug are you drinking your Lapsang Souchong from?).

    https://theguardian.com/politics/2009/nov/12/gordon-brown-announces-new-immigration-rules

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18539472

    And here's a good thread about Labour:

    https://twitter.com/bloomfieldsj/status/1066774288718536708

    It was at that time, and again subsequently under the Conservatives, a response to a country that had voted for lower immigration. It doesn't do it for me but immigration has been an issue for governments for the past two or three decades. I don't think the Conservatives were any better or worse at it.
    Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 10,741
    @AndyJS Letwin has endorsed Gove BTW, I think by tweet
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611
    RobD said:

    RobD said:



    Infiltrate isn't what you have to do. Go to them, tell them the truth and you can join up. It is as much infiltration as me going to my local shop. Your attempts to turn everything into a conspiracy are quite anti semitic TBH.

    Theresa May, Windrush, Go Home vans, Saudi Arabia, Russian Donors. Your party is racist from top to bottom and actively enacts racist policies... Why do you think BAME voters actively vote against you?1

    I realise you are a right winger so look past or support most of this stuff but you have to realise to people who don't support racism it just looks like supreme hypocrisy to sit there and complain about racism.

    Contrast and compare Labour and the Tories, Boris Johnson would never have got away with insults Jews in a newspaper article like he did Muslims if he was Labour. As it was no punishment because people on the right think that is fine.

    Theresa May is a god damn racist, look at her policies, look at her allies and the majority of the Tory party supports this crap. Rotten to the core.

    Aren’t you forgetting that the Windrush scandal began under Labour? And I’m not sure how “Russian donors” constitutes racist behaviour... lol
    The Conservatives took it to extreme levels, such was there desire to satisfy the frothing right wingers, not that Labour should be excused for trying to win over Tories with racism in the first place...

    He made a complaint about foreigners Jezza had met so I added a few of the Tories friends.
    Took it to extreme levels? I thought the policy hadn’t changed much.
    The hostile environment was mostly a phrase to dog whistle to the racists when Labour left office. Tories stepped it up.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 6,833

    TOPPING said:

    Infiltrate isn't what you have to do. Go to them, tell them the truth and you can join up. It is as much infiltration as me going to my local shop. Your attempts to turn everything into a conspiracy are quite anti semitic TBH.

    Theresa May, Windrush, Go Home vans, Saudi Arabia, Russian Donors. Your party is racist from top to bottom and actively enacts racist policies... Why do you think BAME voters actively vote against you?1

    I realise you are a right winger so look past or support most of this stuff but you have to realise to people who don't support racism it just looks like supreme hypocrisy to sit there and complain about racism.

    Contrast and compare Labour and the Tories, Boris Johnson would never have got away with insults Jews in a newspaper article like he did Muslims if he was Labour. As it was no punishment because people on the right think that is fine.

    Theresa May is a god damn racist, look at her policies, look at her allies and the majority of the Tory party supports this crap. Rotten to the core.

    The more you shout the less convincing you are. And you were starting from a low base.

    As has been pointed out the hostile environment began under that noted racist Gordon Brown (btw what mug are you drinking your Lapsang Souchong from?).

    https://theguardian.com/politics/2009/nov/12/gordon-brown-announces-new-immigration-rules

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18539472

    And here's a good thread about Labour:

    https://twitter.com/bloomfieldsj/status/1066774288718536708

    It was at that time, and again subsequently under the Conservatives, a response to a country that had voted for lower immigration. It doesn't do it for me but immigration has been an issue for governments for the past two or three decades. I don't think the Conservatives were any better or worse at it.
    Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist.
    Let’s wait for the enquiry to report shall we
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    edited June 2019
    TheJezziah:

    "Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist."

    +++++

    Labour are the only party, apart from the BNP, to be officially investigated for racism by the EHRC. The Labour party is riddled with racism. Denying this is futile. It is a racist party, led by a racist, who is, in turn, aided by racists.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Byronic said:

    TheJezziah:

    "Labour pandering to Conservative bigotry doesn't make it any more acceptable...

    Also fuck off with 'legitimate concerns' when you have the cheek to accuse Labour of being racist."

    +++++

    Labour are the only party, apart from the BNP, to be officially investigated for racism by the EHRC. The Labour party is riddled with racism. Denying this is futile. It is a racist party, led by a racist, who is, in turn, aided by racists.

    Look at this thread and how Labour, Corbyn and new MP Lisa Forbes are already drowning in antisemitism claims.

    Now imagine Boris as leader and write the Labour spin lines against him on the same issues. It's too easy. That is why (in my view) Boris will not be elected. Even this morning's court case dismissal said what? -- that you can't sue Boris for lying. The attack ads write themselves.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 14,974
    @Byronic How are you doing Sean? Woman on the tube yesterday was reading one of your books, thought of you.
This discussion has been closed.