Interesting program about the Ugandan Asians on BBC4.
It implied that Enoch Powell opposed their entry whereas I've read here that Enoch was a supporter because of obligations to British passport holders.
Can the PB minds give me the definitive facts.
I thought his views was that we had obligations to them but we should help to relocate them to somewhere like the Virgin Islands, Caymans, Seychelles etc but not the UK.
Did Enoch want them to get control of the tax havens
According to wikipedia there were 27,200 Ugandan Asians who came to the UK.
From current perspectives it really doesn't seem too many.
As a former Tory MP*^ put it to me, when it comes to Enoch Powell think of him as Nigel Farage with a classics degree.
*No, not that one
^No, not that one either.
He was far more than that - exemplary war record etc
He was also the ruiner of the lives of so many people.
British politics is basically disintegrating before our eyes. The only question is, is it because of Brexit, or is Brexit merely the catalyst needed to push an already tottering system over the edge?
The Brexit campaign gave people license to lie to people and say nasty things about each other without censure.
While at the same time Corbyn becoming leader of Lab gave people license to engage in anti-Semitic behaviour in his party.
Funnily enough Tory types did start pushing it harder in reaction to complaints about xenophobia during the Brexit campaign, it is the Tory look over there weapon, falsely blame their opponents for racism.
Not me guv. Many of your fellow travellers in the Labour Party. Labour MPs, Labour Party members, and PB Labour types.
Tories are the least of your problems.
'Not me guv' presumably another Topping is constantly banging on about on about racism in Labour and suddenly going quiet and into whataboutery on any racism in the Conservative party then....
You seem to be the expert in whataboutery. The Tories probably have isolated incidences of racist behaviour, which should be identified and dealt with. Newkip have a serious issue with the Tommy Robinson brigade and their heinous views on Islam. Unfortunately Labour have an endemic issue, no amount of pointing fingers at others will get around this but if you care about the party you should take it seriously.
TBH polling seems to indicate the Tories are actually worse for anti semitism let alone Islamophobia which is a huge problem for them. Tories are all to busy campaigning on Labours racism though it seems...
Polling shows no such thing. This has been exposed time and again as a fiction.
No it hasn't. I realise, after pushing the line for so long, it can be distressing to read that the facts don't line up with the smear campaign but Labour just don't attract racists like the Conservatives do.
This must be a parody account - either that or you took 1984 to heart
A British-born aid worker in Syria has criticised the government's decision to strip him of his citizenship - but admitted that he previously fought in the country and carried an AK47 rifle. Tauqir Sharif, from east London, moved to Syria with his wife seven years ago.
In 2017, the Home Office removed his British citizenship, saying it had seen secret intelligence and believed he had links to a group aligned with al-Qaeda.
Not me guv. Many of your fellow travellers in the Labour Party. Labour MPs, Labour Party members, and PB Labour types.
Tories are the least of your problems.
'Not me guv' presumably another Topping is constantly banging on about on about racism in Labour and suddenly going quiet and into whataboutery on any racism in the Conservative party then....
You seem to be the expert in whataboutery. The Tories probably have isolated incidences of racist behaviour, which should be identified and dealt with. Newkip have a serious issue with the Tommy Robinson brigade and their heinous views on Islam. Unfortunately Labour have an endemic issue, no amount of pointing fingers at others will get around this but if you care about the party you should take it seriously.
TBH polling seems to indicate the Tories are actually worse for anti semitism let alone Islamophobia which is a huge problem for them. Tories are all to busy campaigning on Labours racism though it seems...
The absolute level of anti-semitism within Labour is absolutely unacceptable, regardless of how it compares to other parties.
How hard is it to kick out a couple of thousand bigots and bullies?
The absolute level of anti semitism in the Labour party is no bigger than in society itself. If the argument is that the Labour party isn't perfect then that there can be no argument with that.
Also the argument wasn't any racism in Labour is okay because it is less than other parties, it is more pointing out the hypocrisy in the Conservative crusaders against racism, who only seem to crusade against their opponents.
The party is generally suspending people found to have done something wrong but the process for dealing with them is taking longer than it should, probably not helped by the factional approach taking to complaining by everyone and the huge backlog left by the 'awesome' centrist GS we had running the show previously.
off topic: Cunk on Britain on BBC2 right now, talking to Chris Packham:
Cunk: "Talk me through what happened when Charles Darwin invented the monkey" CP: "Well, y'see, he didn't invent the monkey, he... Cunk: "Well talk me through what happened when Charles Darwin didn't invent the monkey"
British politics is basically disintegrating before our eyes. The only question is, is it because of Brexit, or is Brexit merely the catalyst needed to push an already tottering system over the edge?
The Brexit campaign gave people license to lie to people and say nasty things about each other without censure.
While at the same time Corbyn becoming leader of Lab gave people license to engage in anti-Semitic behaviour in his party.
Funnily enough Tory types did start pushing it harder in reaction to complaints about xenophobia during the Brexit campaign, it is the Tory look over there weapon, falsely blame their opponents for racism.
Not me guv. Many of your fellow travellers in the Labour Party. Labour MPs, Labour Party members, and PB Labour types.
Tories are the least of your problems.
'Not me guv' presumably another Topping is constantly banging on about on about racism in Labour and suddenly going quiet and into whataboutery on any racism in the Conservative party then....
No. It's me. I am pointing out the institutional racism of the Labour Party under the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn. All day long.
Conservative racism? For sure it exists. But it is not endorsed and given succour by the actions of the leadership.
TBH I was pretty sure it was you, gov. Not the pollster...
Sayeeda Warsi has said it goes to the very top, of course not a concern for you as you are too busy campaigning against racism in opposition political parties.
May of course is also personally involved in many dodgy racist things, from the windrush scandal to go home vans. Now admittedly she wasn't Conservative leader when Zac had his Islamophobic mayoral campaign... I'm sure she's suspended him or taken some action since right?
What about Boris and his comments, May has taken some action right...?
Nothing to do with political reasons or not caring about the racism I'm sure...
You're very good at this, you know: in among all your frantic misdirection, I'd completely forgotten about the Watson/Formby civil war, the pending data governance investigation, the mess made of Falconer's appointment (or not) into Labour's complaints procedures, and the avalanche of Labour MPs threatening to leave the party if things are not resolved to their satisfaction, quickly.
British politics is basically disintegrating before our eyes. The only question is, is it because of Brexit, or is Brexit merely the catalyst needed to push an already tottering system over the edge?
The Brexit campaign gave people license to lie to people and say nasty things about each other without censure.
While at the same time Corbyn becoming leader of Lab gave people license to engage in anti-Semitic behaviour in his party.
Funnily enough Tory types did start pushing it harder in reaction to complaints about xenophobia during the Brexit campaign, it is the Tory look over there weapon, falsely blame their opponents for racism.
Not me guv. Many of your fellow travellers in the Labour Party. Labour MPs, Labour Party members, and PB Labour types.
Tories are the least of your problems.
'Not me guv' presumably another Topping is constantly banging on about on about racism
No. It's me. I am pointing out the institutional racism of the Labour Party under the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn. All day long.
Conservative racism? For sure it exists. But it is not endorsed and given succour by the actions of the leadership.
TBH I was pretty sure it was you, gov. Not the pollster...
Sayeeda Warsi has said it
What about Boris and his comments, May has taken some action right...?
Nothing to do with political reasons or not caring about the racism I'm sure...
I think it's unlikely that any Conservative Muslim MP would get the kind of abuse from their own side that Luciana Berger has had to endure.
Sayeeda Warsi accounts seem to beg to differ, despite her much lower profile she seemed to have her share. I wasn't counting the far right types who have been jailed with threatening Luciana as they aren't her own side.
Also Anna Soubry was harassed by Conservatives, many of the Conservatives threatened for Brexit reasons have had it done to them by their own side. Admittedly this hasn't always been for racism.
Do you think Jewish Labour MP's and activists are just telling lies, when they say that that fellow party members tell them they're "sucking Netanyahu 's cock" or call them "Yid Whore", or "Zio" or say "I hope your child suffers the way you make Palestinian children suffer" or "you don't have human blood".
There are shits in the Tory party, but there is a basic level of politeness that would make such behaviour unusal, I think.
A relatively small number of hugely priced properties in Central London drive up the averages. But, in London, investors were just betting on ever-rising prices, and you also get vanity buyers in places like Bishop's Avenue.
When I bought my first house in 1981, about a mile from where I live now in South London, it cost £20k, which was 4X my then salary as a new graduate, which was £5k. Now that same house would be worth close to £500k, almost 17X a graduate salary of £30k.
British politics is basically disintegrating before our eyes. The only question is, is it because of Brexit, or is Brexit merely the catalyst needed to push an already tottering system over the edge?
The Brexit campaign gave people license to lie to people and say nasty things about each other without censure.
While at the same time Corbyn becoming leader of Lab gave people license to engage in anti-Semitic behaviour in his party.
Funnily enough Tory types did start pushing it harder in reaction to complaints about xenophobia during the Brexit campaign, it is the Tory look over there weapon, falsely blame their opponents for racism.
Not me guv. Many of your fellow travellers in the Labour Party. Labour MPs, Labour Party members, and PB Labour types.
Tories are the least of your problems.
'Not me guv' presumably another Topping is constantly banging on about on about racism in Labour and suddenly going quiet and into whataboutery on any racism in the Conservative party then....
You seem to be the expert in whataboutery. The Tories probably have isolated incidences of racist behaviour, which should be identified and dealt with. Newkip have a serious issue with the Tommy Robinson brigade and their heinous views on Islam. Unfortunately Labour have an endemic issue, no amount of pointing fingers at others will get around this but if you care about the party you should take it seriously.
TBH polling seems to indicate the Tories are actually worse for anti semitism let alone Islamophobia which is a huge problem for them. Tories are all to busy campaigning on Labours racism though it seems...
Polling shows no such thing. This has been exposed time and again as a fiction.
No it hasn't. I realise, after pushing the line for so long, it can be distressing to read that the facts don't line up with the smear campaign but Labour just don't attract racists like the Conservatives do.
This must be a parody account - either that or you took 1984 to heart
Aren't you the one who recently talked about voting for Farage. I'm not sure why you are convinced that you are genuinely against racism and others are hypocrites but I'm worried it is the mirror that is catching your eye.
British politics is basically disintegrating before our eyes. The only question is, is it because of Brexit, or is Brexit merely the catalyst needed to push an already tottering system over the edge?
The Brexit campaign gave people license to lie to people and say nasty things about each other without censure.
While at the same time Corbyn becoming leader of Lab gave people license to engage in anti-Semitic behaviour in his party.
Funnily enough Tory types did start pushing it harder in reaction to complaints about xenophobia during the Brexit campaign, it is the Tory look over there weapon, falsely blame their opponents for racism.
Not me guv. Many of your fellow travellers in the Labour Party. Labour MPs, Labour Party members, and PB Labour types.
Tories are the least of your problems.
'Not me guv' presumably another Topping is constantly banging on about on about racism in Labour and suddenly going quiet and into whataboutery on any racism in the Conservative party then....
You seem to be the expert in whataboutery. The Tories probably have isolated incidences of racist behaviour, which should be identified and dealt with. Newkip have a serious issue with the Tommy Robinson brigade and their heinous views on Islam. Unfortunately Labour have an endemic issue, no amount of pointing fingers at others will get around this but if you care about the party you should take it seriously.
TBH polling seems to indicate the Tories are actually worse for anti semitism let alone Islamophobia which is a huge problem for them. Tories are all to busy campaigning on Labours racism though it seems...
Polling shows no such thing. This has been exposed time and again as a fiction.
No it hasn't. I realise, after pushing the line for so long, it can be distressing to read that the facts don't line up with the smear campaign but Labour just don't attract racists like the Conservatives do.
This must be a parody account - either that or you took 1984 to heart
Aren't you the one who recently talked about voting for Farage. I'm not sure why you are convinced that you are genuinely against racism and others are hypocrites but I'm worried it is the mirror that is catching your eye.
Am I ? perhaps you could find the post to remind me
British politics is basically disintegrating before our eyes. The only question is, is it because of Brexit, or is Brexit merely the catalyst needed to push an already tottering system over the edge?
The Brexit campaign gave people license to lie to people and say nasty things about each other without censure.
While at the same time Corbyn becoming leader of Lab gave people license to engage in anti-Semitic behaviour in his party.
Funnily enough Tory types did start pushing it harder in reaction to complaints about xenophobia during the Brexit campaign, it is the Tory look over there weapon, falsely blame their opponents for racism.
Not me guv. Many of your fellow travellers in the Labour Party. Labour MPs, Labour Party members, and PB Labour types.
Tories are the least of your problems.
'Not me guv' presumably another Topping is constantly banging on about on about racism in Labour and suddenly going quiet and into whataboutery on any racism in the Conservative party then....
No. It's me. I am pointing out the institutional racism of the Labour Party under the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn. All day long.
Conservative racism? For sure it exists. But it is not endorsed and given succour by the actions of the leadership.
TBH I was pretty sure it was you, gov. Not the pollster...
Sayeeda Warsi has said it goes to the very top, of course not a concern for you as you are too busy campaigning against racism in opposition political parties.
May of course is also personally involved in many dodgy racist things, from the windrush scandal to go home vans. Now admittedly she wasn't Conservative leader when Zac had his Islamophobic mayoral campaign... I'm sure she's suspended him or taken some action since right?
What about Boris and his comments, May has taken some action right...?
Nothing to do with political reasons or not caring about the racism I'm sure...
You're very good at this, you know: in among all your frantic misdirection, I'd completely forgotten about the Watson/Formby civil war, the pending data governance investigation, the mess made of Falconer's appointment (or not) into Labour's complaints procedures, and the avalanche of Labour MPs threatening to leave the party if things are not resolved to their satisfaction, quickly.
Funnily enough Tory types did start pushing it harder in reaction to complaints about xenophobia during the Brexit campaign, it is the Tory look over there weapon, falsely blame their opponents for racism.
Not me guv. Many of your fellow travellers in the Labour Party. Labour MPs, Labour Party members, and PB Labour types.
Tories are the least of your problems.
'Not me guv' presumably another Topping is constantly banging on about on about racism in Labour and suddenly going quiet and into whataboutery on any racism in the Conservative party then....
You seem to be the expert in whataboutery. The Tories probably have isolated incidences of racist behaviour, which should be identified and dealt with. Newkip have a serious issue with the Tommy Robinson brigade and their heinous views on Islam. Unfortunately Labour have an endemic issue, no amount of pointing fingers at others will get around this but if you care about the party you should take it seriously.
TBH polling seems to indicate the Tories are actually worse for anti semitism let alone Islamophobia which is a huge problem for them. Tories are all to busy campaigning on Labours racism though it seems...
Polling shows no such thing. This has been exposed time and again as a fiction.
No it hasn't. I realise, after pushing the line for so long, it can be distressing to read that the facts don't line up with the smear campaign but Labour just don't attract racists like the Conservatives do.
I'm intrigued. What polling has been carried out on this? Presumably it would have to be based on self assessment.
Yes, generally by asking a series of questions rather than actually asking are you racist. Or at least this first one, less sure on the second one.
<<Funnily enough Tory types did start pushing it harder in reaction to complaints about xenophobia during the Brexit campaign, it is the Tory look over there weapon, falsely blame their opponents for racism.
'Not me guv' presumably another Topping is constantly banging on about on about racism in Labour and suddenly going quiet and into whataboutery on any racism in the Conservative party then....>>
A key point here is correct. The prevalence of racist attitudes in the conservative party has always been higher, and so for the conservatives to go after labour on this topic is dubious, to put it mildly. Many of the pillars and precursors of modern, Faragist nativist conservatism, to which the party increasingly seems to gravitate, were the most authentic kinds of anti-semites. Enoch Powell was obsessed with the concept of the jews having killed christ, for instance.
A relatively small number of hugely priced properties in Central London drive up the averages. But, in London, investors were just betting on ever-rising prices, and you also get vanity buyers in places like Bishop's Avenue.
When I bought my first house in 1981, about a mile from where I live now in South London, it cost £20k, which was 4X my then salary as a new graduate, which was £5k. Now that same house would be worth close to £500k, almost 17X a graduate salary of £30k.
This is madness.
That's The Bishop's Avenue, to you
But yes, I quite agree. If Brexit is responsible for the current relative stability of pricing, then that's already a huge benefit - I bought for the first time just after the vote, and the place is probably worth a little less than I paid - but not much, and at least the next rung up the ladder is staying in sight. Twenty more years of zero nominal growth in London, slow and steady growth outside, plus steady wage inflation, and we'll have a functional market back.
British politics is basically disintegrating before our eyes. The only question is, is it because of Brexit, or is Brexit merely the catalyst needed to push an already tottering system over the edge?
The Brexit campaign gave people license to lie to people and say nasty things about each other without censure.
While at the same time Corbyn becoming leader of Lab gave people license to engage in anti-Semitic behaviour in his party.
Funnily enough Tory types did start pushing it harder in reaction to complaints about xenophobia during the Brexit campaign, it is the Tory look over there weapon, falsely blame their opponents for racism.
Not me guv. Many of your fellow travellers in the Labour Party. Labour MPs, Labour Party members, and PB Labour types.
Tories are the least of your problems.
'Not me guv' presumably another Topping is constantly banging on about on about racism in Labour and suddenly going quiet and into whataboutery on any racism in the Conservative party then....
You seem to be the expert in whataboutery. The Tories probably have isolated incidences of racist behaviour, which should be identified and dealt with. Newkip have a serious issue with the Tommy Robinson brigade and their heinous views on Islam. Unfortunately Labour have an endemic issue, no amount of pointing fingers at others will get around this but if you care about the party you should take it seriously.
Polling shows no such thing. This has been exposed time and again as a fiction.
No it hasn't. I realise, after pushing the line for so long, it can be distressing to read that the facts don't line up with the smear campaign but Labour just don't attract racists like the Conservatives do.
This must be a parody account - either that or you took 1984 to heart
Aren't you the one who recently talked about voting for Farage. I'm not sure why you are convinced that you are genuinely against racism and others are hypocrites but I'm worried it is the mirror that is catching your eye.
There was young man named Farage Who one day got locked in his garage He campaigned so hard But let down his guard And fell to an electoral barrage!
A relatively small number of hugely priced properties in Central London drive up the averages. But, in London, investors were just betting on ever-rising prices, and you also get vanity buyers in places like Bishop's Avenue.
When I bought my first house in 1981, about a mile from where I live now in South London, it cost £20k, which was 4X my then salary as a new graduate, which was £5k. Now that same house would be worth close to £500k, almost 17X a graduate salary of £30k.
This is madness.
The population of the UK in 1981 was 56 million; it's now 67 million. Compare this to Italy for instance where the population in 1981 was 56.5 million and 59.2 million today.
"The archive of Tony Benn has been donated to the British Library under the acceptance in lieu scheme, allowing his family to reduce a substantial inheritance tax bill."
Not me guv. Many of your fellow travellers in the Labour Party. Labour MPs, Labour Party members, and PB Labour types.
Tories are the least of your problems.
'Not me guv' presumably another Topping is constantly banging on about on about racism
No. It's me. I am pointing out the institutional racism of the Labour Party under the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn. All day long.
Conservative racism? For sure it exists. But it is not endorsed and given succour by the actions of the leadership.
TBH I was pretty sure it was you, gov. Not the pollster...
Sayeeda Warsi has said it
What about Boris and his comments, May has taken some action right...?
Nothing to do with political reasons or not caring about the racism I'm sure...
I think it's unlikely that any Conservative Muslim MP would get the kind of abuse from their own side that Luciana Berger has had to endure.
Sayeeda Warsi accounts seem to beg to differ, despite her much lower profile she seemed to have her share. I wasn't counting the far right types who have been jailed with threatening Luciana as they aren't her own side.
Also Anna Soubry was harassed by Conservatives, many of the Conservatives threatened for Brexit reasons have had it done to them by their own side. Admittedly this hasn't always been for racism.
Do you think Jewish Labour MP's and activists are just telling lies, when they say that that fellow party members tell them they're "sucking Netanyahu 's cock" or call them "Yid Whore", or "Zio" or say "I hope your child suffers the way you make Palestinian children suffer" or "you don't have human blood".
There are shits in the Tory party, but there is a basic level of politeness that would make such behaviour unusal, I think.
Do you think Conservatives are telling lies about all the abuse and death threats they have got?
The Muslims ones as well but well beyond just them. I'm sure most members of the Conservative party are polite, funnily enough one of the comments criticised recently involved a Conservative chastising someone for swearing in a post about bombing mosques. There are plenty who aren't so polite in their hatred as well though.
British politics is basically disintegrating before our eyes. The only question is, is it because of Brexit, or is Brexit merely the catalyst needed to push an already tottering system over the edge?
The Brexit campaign gave people license to lie to people and say nasty things about each other without censure.
While at the same time Corbyn becoming leader of Lab gave people license to engage in anti-Semitic behaviour in his party.
Funnily enough Tory types did start pushing it harder in reaction to complaints about xenophobia during the Brexit campaign, it is the Tory look over there weapon, falsely blame their opponents for racism.
Not me guv. Many of your fellow travellers in the Labour Party. Labour MPs, Labour Party members, and PB Labour types.
Tories are the least of your problems.
'Not me guv' presumably another Topping is constantly banging on about on about racism in Labour and suddenly going quiet and into whataboutery on any racism in the Conservative party then....
No. It's me. I am pointing out the institutional racism of the Labour Party under the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn. All day long.
Conservative racism? For sure it exists. But it is not endorsed and given succour by the actions of the leadership.
TBH I was pretty sure it was you, gov. Not the pollster...
Sayeeda Warsi has said it goes to the very top, of course not a concern for you as you are too busy campaigning against racism in opposition political parties.
May of course is also personally involved in many dodgy racist things, from the windrush scandal to go home vans. Now admittedly she wasn't Conservative leader when Zac had his Islamophobic mayoral campaign... I'm sure she's suspended him or taken some action since right?
What about Boris and his comments, May has taken some action right...?
Nothing to do with political reasons or not caring about the racism I'm sure...
You're very good at this, you know: in among all your frantic misdirection, I'd completely forgotten about the Watson/Formby civil war, the pending data governance investigation, the mess made of Falconer's appointment (or not) into Labour's complaints procedures, and the avalanche of Labour MPs threatening to leave the party if things are not resolved to their satisfaction, quickly.
Oh, no - wait. There they all are again.
The usual quick subject change when Islamophobia and the Conservative party is discussed. No need to apologise, used to it by now.
Lost a substantial contract today because of Brexit. I’d been commissioned to run a series of training events for a major housebuilder but the decline in sales since the vote is now biting hard and all non-essential spending has been stopped. That’s several thousand pounds I won’t be getting.
In Autumn 2016 I was contacted by a government agency asking what benefits I could see arising from exiting the EU. I couldn’t think of a single one. I still can’t.
Business. Fucked. To misquote the former Foreign Secretary.
Angry doesn’t cut it.
You have my sympathy, especially as private housing starts were at their second highest in a decade last year (2016-7 being the highest), house prices are solid, seasonally-adjusted house sales are a smidgen higher than 2015, and FTSE housebuilders are very profitable indeed.
Well a local estate agent in South London told me on Saturday that asking prices were 15% down on the peak and sales are slow. Which is borne out by the experience of two friends who have recently sold in the area. FTSE housebuilders are indeed profitable, thanks to the taxpayer propping them up through help to buy.
Yes, it's all excellent news for first time buyers. Bad news for the speculators and buy to let parasites.
Perhaps. But falling prices are not usually a sign of a healthy market.
Ridiculously inflated prices are not good for anyone.
What we need is for prices to be such that they are affordable for people looking to own housing, but that they aren't so low that they destroy people's savings.
It's a difficult balance. Falling house prices mean reduced household wealth, which means that people compensate by saving more.
The best of all worlds is one where house prices fall in real terms, but not in nominal ones.
It's a difficult balance for any government to tread. (Not least because governments can't easily control prices.)
Right now the majority of falls are in the most expensive parts of London, and do not appear to have any impacts on the broader economy. That may change - and it may change for many reasons, some of which are directly related to Brexit, and some of which are completely unrelated.
Lost a substantial contract today because of Brexit. I’d been commissioned to run a series of training events for a major housebuilder but the decline in sales since the vote is now biting hard and all non-essential spending has been stopped. That’s several thousand pounds I won’t be getting.
In Autumn 2016 I was contacted by a government agency asking what benefits I could see arising from exiting the EU. I couldn’t think of a single one. I still can’t.
Business. Fucked. To misquote the former Foreign Secretary.
Angry doesn’t cut it.
You have my sympathy, especially as private housing starts were at their second highest in a decade last year (2016-7 being the highest), house prices are solid, seasonally-adjusted house sales are a smidgen higher than 2015, and FTSE housebuilders are very profitable indeed.
Well a local estate agent in South London told me on Saturday that asking prices were 15% down on the peak and sales are slow. Which is borne out by the experience of two friends who have recently sold in the area. FTSE housebuilders are indeed profitable, thanks to the taxpayer propping them up through help to buy.
Yes, it's all excellent news for first time buyers. Bad news for the speculators and buy to let parasites.
Perhaps. But falling prices are not usually a sign of a healthy market.
I think house prices are finally being divorced from the wider economy as they become less of an investment and more somewhere people live. All the taxes on landlords are having an effect. Hopefully the government continues to tax them out of existence.
They will still dominate the personal balance sheets of home owners, so they can't be totally divorced.
Funnily enough Tory types did start pushing it harder in reaction to complaints about xenophobia during the Brexit campaign, it is the Tory look over there weapon, falsely blame their opponents for racism.
Not me guv. Many of your fellow travellers in the Labour Party. Labour MPs, Labour Party members, and PB Labour types.
Tories are the least of your problems.
'Not me guv' presumably another Topping is constantly banging on about on about racism in Labour and suddenly going quiet and into whataboutery on any racism in the Conservative party then....
You seem to be the expert in whataboutery. The Tories probably have isolated incidences of racist behaviour, which should be identified and dealt with. Newkip have a serious issue with the Tommy Robinson brigade and their heinous views on Islam. Unfortunately Labour have an endemic issue, no amount of pointing fingers at others will get around this but if you care about the party you should take it seriously.
TBH polling seems to indicate the Tories are actually worse for anti semitism let alone Islamophobia which is a huge problem for them. Tories are all to busy campaigning on Labours racism though it seems...
Polling shows no such thing. This has been exposed time and again as a fiction.
No it hasn't. I realise, after pushing the line for so long, it can be distressing to read that the facts don't line up with the smear campaign but Labour just don't attract racists like the Conservatives do.
This must be a parody account - either that or you took 1984 to heart
Aren't you the one who recently talked about voting for Farage. I'm not sure why you are convinced that you are genuinely against racism and others are hypocrites but I'm worried it is the mirror that is catching your eye.
Am I ? perhaps you could find the post to remind me
Ahh my mistake, I remember TSE lecturing someone who was whining about racism and had recently talked about being tempted to vote for Farage. If not you then apologies!
A relatively small number of hugely priced properties in Central London drive up the averages. But, in London, investors were just betting on ever-rising prices, and you also get vanity buyers in places like Bishop's Avenue.
When I bought my first house in 1981, about a mile from where I live now in South London, it cost £20k, which was 4X my then salary as a new graduate, which was £5k. Now that same house would be worth close to £500k, almost 17X a graduate salary of £30k.
This is madness.
The population of the UK in 1981 was 56 million; it's now 67 million. Compare this to Italy for instance where the population in 1981 was 56.5 million and 59.2 million today.
So a 20% increase in population has caused a 2500% increase in house prices?
<<Funnily enough Tory types did start pushing it harder in reaction to complaints about xenophobia during the Brexit campaign, it is the Tory look over there weapon, falsely blame their opponents for racism.
'Not me guv' presumably another Topping is constantly banging on about on about racism in Labour and suddenly going quiet and into whataboutery on any racism in the Conservative party then....>>
A key point here is correct. The prevalence of racist attitudes in the conservative party has always been higher, and so for the conservatives to go after labour on this topic is dubious, to put it mildly. Many of the pillars and precursors of modern, Faragist nativist conservatism, to which the party increasingly seems to gravitate, were the most authentic kinds of anti-semites. Enoch Powell was obsessed with the concept of the jews having killed christ, for instance.
I don't doubt that once upon a time, you'd encounter a fair amount of drawing room anti-semitism in Consevative circles, but that's quite rare now. And well removed from the more virulent variety that Jewish Labour activists have encountered.
Ahh my mistake, I remember TSE lecturing someone who was whining about racism and had recently talked about being tempted to vote for Farage. If not you then apologies!
It was Floater, he said he would vote for Farage if the Tories revoked Brexit.
I found it odd considering Farage had been condemned for repeating a well known anti-semitic trope and Floater chastasing Labour for their anti-semitism issues.
Ahh my mistake, I remember TSE lecturing someone who was whining about racism and had recently talked about being tempted to vote for Farage. If not you then apologies!
It was Floater, he said he would vote for Farage if the Tories revoked Brexit.
I found it odd considering Farage had been condemned for repeating a well known anti-semitic trope and Floater chastasing Labour for their anti-semitism issues.
What you have apparently chosen to forget is that I said I had not heard that reported.
Something I can hardly miss with Labour right now.
Ahh my mistake, I remember TSE lecturing someone who was whining about racism and had recently talked about being tempted to vote for Farage. If not you then apologies!
It was Floater, he said he would vote for Farage if the Tories revoked Brexit.
I found it odd considering Farage had been condemned for repeating a well known anti-semitic trope and Floater chastasing Labour for their anti-semitism issues.
Ahh my mistake, I remember TSE lecturing someone who was whining about racism and had recently talked about being tempted to vote for Farage. If not you then apologies!
It was Floater, he said he would vote for Farage if the Tories revoked Brexit.
I found it odd considering Farage had been condemned for repeating a well known anti-semitic trope and Floater chastasing Labour for their anti-semitism issues.
What you have apparently chosen to forget is that I said I had not heard that reported.
Something I can hardly miss with Labour right now.
It was covered extensively at the time.
Odd you link to lots of instances of Labour anti-semitism from obscure Labour people to the very top of the party, but missed the Farage one.
Not me guv. Many of your fellow travellers in the Labour Party. Labour MPs, Labour Party members, and PB Labour types.
Tories are the least of your problems.
'Not me guv' presumably another Topping is constantly banging on about on about racism
No. It's me. I am pointing out the institutional racism of the Labour Party under the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn. All day long.
Conservative racism? For sure it exists. But it is not endorsed and given succour by the actions of the leadership.
TBH I was pretty sure it was you, gov. Not the pollster...
Sayeeda Warsi has said it
What about Boris and his comments, May has taken some action right...?
Nothing to do with political reasons or not caring about the racism I'm sure...
I think it's unlikely that any Conservative Muslim MP would get the kind of abuse from their own side that Luciana Berger has had to endure.
Sayeeda Warsi accounts seem to beg to differ, despite her much lower profile she seemed to have her share. I wasn't counting the far right types who have been jailed with threatening Luciana as they aren't her own side.
Also Anna Soubry was harassed by Conservatives, many of the Conservatives threatened for Brexit reasons have had it done to them by their own side. Admittedly this hasn't always been for racism.
Do you think Jewish Labour MP's and activists are just telling lies, when they say that that fellow party members tell them they're "sucking Netanyahu 's cock" or call them "Yid Whore", or "Zio" or say "I hope your child suffers thehave human blood".
There are shits in the Tory party, but there is a basic level of politeness that would make such behaviour unusal, I think.
Do you think Conservatives are telling lies about all the abuse and death threats they have got?
The Muslims ones as well but well beyond just them. I'm sure most members of the Conservative party are polite, funnily enough one of the comments criticised recently involved a Conservative chastising someone for swearing in a post about bombing mosques. There are plenty who aren't so polite in their hatred as well though.
No. Tory MP's get a lot of abuse from Britain First, EDL, Leave EU, the extreme left, and various other factions. And, anti-Brexit MP's are at risk of deselection.
Well done @Black_Rook - good to see someone calling out those homophobic parents in Birmingham and the damning silence that has followed. Hat tip also to @Cyclefree for being supportive
I guess the problem with gay people is that we’re stuck on about 2% of the population. Ken Livingstone and George Galloway made the simple calculation that they can appeal to a much larger (and growing) constituency by throwing us under the bus. Literally no MPs have spoken up for gay people on this issue - just a load of handwaving and saying that ‘consultation’ is required.
No consultation is required at all. If these parents want to take their children out of school because it’s teaching their children that gay people are normal and that there is no need to hate or fear them, they can pay for their own schools.
A relatively small number of hugely priced properties in Central London drive up the averages. But, in London, investors were just betting on ever-rising prices, and you also get vanity buyers in places like Bishop's Avenue.
When I bought my first house in 1981, about a mile from where I live now in South London, it cost £20k, which was 4X my then salary as a new graduate, which was £5k. Now that same house would be worth close to £500k, almost 17X a graduate salary of £30k.
This is madness.
The population of the UK in 1981 was 56 million; it's now 67 million. Compare this to Italy for instance where the population in 1981 was 56.5 million and 59.2 million today.
So a 20% increase in population has caused a 2500% increase in house prices?
Are house prices 25 times higher than in 1981 ? Not in Yorkshire at least.
But this looks like an interesting study:
' Net migration changes are consistent with large housing effects. An additional net inflow that adds 1 percent to the population causes an 8 percent increase in house prices over the following three years and an additional house is built for around every six migrants. This is materially more than the existing number of people per household in New Zealand (around 2.5).
When net migration is split into arrivals and departures, arrivals appear to have had bigger house price effects than departures. A 1000-person increase in monthly arrivals raises real house prices by 4 percent, whereas a 1000-person fall in monthly departures raises real house prices by only 2 percent. This is consistent with the additional finding that changes in New Zealand-citizen migration have had smaller effects than changes in foreign-citizen migration. '
Interesting program about the Ugandan Asians on BBC4.
It implied that Enoch Powell opposed their entry whereas I've read here that Enoch was a supporter because of obligations to British passport holders.
Can the PB minds give me the definitive facts.
I thought his views was that we had obligations to them but we should help to relocate them to somewhere like the Virgin Islands, Caymans, Seychelles etc but not the UK.
Did Enoch want them to get control of the tax havens
According to wikipedia there were 27,200 Ugandan Asians who came to the UK.
From current perspectives it really doesn't seem too many.
As a former Tory MP*^ put it to me, when it comes to Enoch Powell think of him as Nigel Farage with a classics degree.
*No, not that one
^No, not that one either.
And a distinguished military record.
Which also sets him apart from Paul Nuttall...
We were talking about him solely in the context of immigration (and race relations)
Well, surely immigration is the opposite of Classicism. In classical terms, everyone who was not a Roman was a second-class person. In immigration, everyone who goes roaming is treated as a second class person.
Lost a substantial contract today because of Brexit. I’d been commissioned to run a series of training events for a major housebuilder but the decline in sales since the vote is now biting hard and all non-essential spending has been stopped. That’s several thousand pounds I won’t be getting.
In Autumn 2016 I was contacted by a government agency asking what benefits I could see arising from exiting the EU. I couldn’t think of a single one. I still can’t.
Business. Fucked. To misquote the former Foreign Secretary.
Angry doesn’t cut it.
Nothing to do with major housebuilders ruining their own reputations by getting too greedy and exploiting leasehold and now freehold with management companies?
Probably not. My employer, in a completely different sector, lost a £35k contract a couple of weeks ago. Client was a foreign bank which, surprise surprise, is reducing its commitment to the UK.
UK assets are now at the bottom of the international popularity league. Growth in UK stock markets has lagged well behind the average since 2016, this represents billions of pounds of value that would have existed were it not for Brexit.
I do think this sort of “soft” reasoning for business decisions is being massively underplayed in considering the impact of Brexit. It’s quite true that ‘nothing (much) has changed’ so far on paper.. but businesses make forward-looking decisions based on a mix of hard current facts, reasonable forecasts of the future, and a *massive* dollop of perception, confidence and “nah.. can’t be arsed, Italy’s more stable”. They’re navigating in the fog right now.. unable to see more than three weeks ahead when they need clarity for years.
I guess this is what all recent governments have meant by “creating the right conditions for business” - more than tax breaks or deregulation, it’s confidence that someone at the top table is watching out for you and is more likely than not to avoid screwing up whatever situation arises next. And *that* reputation has been comprehensively trashed by both main parties. Even if an implementation period is approved next week and is followed by a workable trade deal, surely this must already have had a measurable impact?
UK plc (and its employees) has my sympathy trying to navigate its way through current UK politics.
Anyone on here remember any specifics of the odds for the 1992 UK general election? Like how short Labour would have got to win most seats, what were the odds on the day?
Trying to find pre-digital odds records at Ladbrokes is not easy.
I'll send you the odds on a "win" (overall majority?) for Tuesday April 7th 1992. The election was on the Thursday.
TBH I was pretty sure it was you, gov. Not the pollster...
Sayeeda Warsi has said it
What about Boris and his comments, May has taken some action right...?
Nothing to do with political reasons or not caring about the racism I'm sure...
I think it's unlikely that any Conservative Muslim MP would get the kind of abuse from their own side that Luciana Berger has had to endure.
Sayeeda Warsi accounts seem to beg to differ, despite her much lower profile she seemed to have her share. I wasn't counting the far right types who have been jailed with threatening Luciana as they aren't her own side.
Also Anna Soubry was harassed by Conservatives, many of the Conservatives threatened for Brexit reasons have had it done to them by their own side. Admittedly this hasn't always been for racism.
Do you think Jewish Labour MP's and activists are just telling lies, when they say that that fellow party members tell them they're "sucking Netanyahu 's cock" or call them "Yid Whore", or "Zio" or say "I hope your child suffers thehave human blood".
There are shits in the Tory party, but there is a basic level of politeness that would make such behaviour unusal, I think.
Do you think Conservatives are telling lies about all the abuse and death threats they have got?
The Muslims ones as well but well beyond just them. I'm sure most members of the Conservative party are polite, funnily enough one of the comments criticised recently involved a Conservative chastising someone for swearing in a post about bombing mosques. There are plenty who aren't so polite in their hatred as well though.
No. Tory MP's get a lot of abuse from Britain First, EDL, Leave EU, the extreme left, and various other factions. And, anti-Brexit MP's are at risk of deselection.
Given James Goodard 'I'm not far right I'm a Tory' and Britain First founder calling out those attacking JRM and offering himself as a protector I'm not sure how big that divide between some of those viciously abusing Tory MPs and the Tories is...
Comments
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1094537/asian-gang-sex-rape-female-lawyers
https://www.thalidomidetrust.org/opposition-enoch-powell-plaque/
and
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/13/enoch-powell-failed-to-introduce-tests-for-cervical-cancer
Tauqir Sharif, from east London, moved to Syria with his wife seven years ago.
In 2017, the Home Office removed his British citizenship, saying it had seen secret intelligence and believed he had links to a group aligned with al-Qaeda.
Also the argument wasn't any racism in Labour is okay because it is less than other parties, it is more pointing out the hypocrisy in the Conservative crusaders against racism, who only seem to crusade against their opponents.
The party is generally suspending people found to have done something wrong but the process for dealing with them is taking longer than it should, probably not helped by the factional approach taking to complaining by everyone and the huge backlog left by the 'awesome' centrist GS we had running the show previously.
Cunk: "Talk me through what happened when Charles Darwin invented the monkey"
CP: "Well, y'see, he didn't invent the monkey, he...
Cunk: "Well talk me through what happened when Charles Darwin didn't invent the monkey"
Oh, no - wait. There they all are again.
There are shits in the Tory party, but there is a basic level of politeness that would make such behaviour unusal, I think.
This is madness.
e.g.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1102687670101311489
This is on anti semitism.
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/bs0i5dmt7s/CampaignAgainstAntisemitismResults_170803_JewishOpinions.pdf
and this guardian article contains some just Labour and Tory stats on Islamophobia.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/02/tories-islamophobia-bigotry
<<Funnily enough Tory types did start pushing it harder in reaction to complaints about xenophobia during the Brexit campaign, it is the Tory look over there weapon, falsely blame their opponents for racism.
'Not me guv' presumably another Topping is constantly banging on about on about racism in Labour and suddenly going quiet and into whataboutery on any racism in the Conservative party then....>>
A key point here is correct. The prevalence of racist attitudes in the conservative party has always been higher, and so for the conservatives to go after labour on this topic is dubious, to put it mildly. Many of the pillars and precursors of modern, Faragist nativist conservatism, to which the party increasingly seems to gravitate, were the most authentic kinds of anti-semites. Enoch Powell was obsessed with the concept of the jews having killed christ, for instance.
But yes, I quite agree. If Brexit is responsible for the current relative stability of pricing, then that's already a huge benefit - I bought for the first time just after the vote, and the place is probably worth a little less than I paid - but not much, and at least the next rung up the ladder is staying in sight. Twenty more years of zero nominal growth in London, slow and steady growth outside, plus steady wage inflation, and we'll have a functional market back.
My condolences to Streeter in the meantime.
Who one day got locked in his garage
He campaigned so hard
But let down his guard
And fell to an electoral barrage!
Not very pleasant on here tonight
I hope everyone has a restful night
Good night folks
Telegraph.
The Muslims ones as well but well beyond just them. I'm sure most members of the Conservative party are polite, funnily enough one of the comments criticised recently involved a Conservative chastising someone for swearing in a post about bombing mosques. There are plenty who aren't so polite in their hatred as well though.
What we need is for prices to be such that they are affordable for people looking to own housing, but that they aren't so low that they destroy people's savings.
It's a difficult balance. Falling house prices mean reduced household wealth, which means that people compensate by saving more.
The best of all worlds is one where house prices fall in real terms, but not in nominal ones.
It's a difficult balance for any government to tread. (Not least because governments can't easily control prices.)
Right now the majority of falls are in the most expensive parts of London, and do not appear to have any impacts on the broader economy. That may change - and it may change for many reasons, some of which are directly related to Brexit, and some of which are completely unrelated.
Citizen's Assemblies back on the agenda?
I found it odd considering Farage had been condemned for repeating a well known anti-semitic trope and Floater chastasing Labour for their anti-semitism issues.
Something I can hardly miss with Labour right now.
Can never trust my memory completely...
Odd you link to lots of instances of Labour anti-semitism from obscure Labour people to the very top of the party, but missed the Farage one.
I guess the problem with gay people is that we’re stuck on about 2% of the population. Ken Livingstone and George Galloway made the simple calculation that they can appeal to a much larger (and growing) constituency by throwing us under the bus. Literally no MPs have spoken up for gay people on this issue - just a load of handwaving and saying that ‘consultation’ is required.
No consultation is required at all. If these parents want to take their children out of school because it’s teaching their children that gay people are normal and that there is no need to hate or fear them, they can pay for their own schools.
But this looks like an interesting study:
' Net migration changes are consistent with large housing effects. An additional net inflow that adds 1 percent to the population causes an 8 percent increase in house prices over the following three years and an additional house is built for around every six migrants. This is materially more than the existing number of people per household in New Zealand (around 2.5).
When net migration is split into arrivals and departures, arrivals appear to have had bigger house price effects than departures. A 1000-person increase in monthly arrivals raises real house prices by 4 percent, whereas a 1000-person fall in monthly departures raises real house prices by only 2 percent. This is consistent with the additional finding that changes in New Zealand-citizen migration have had smaller effects than changes in foreign-citizen migration. '
https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/-/media/ReserveBank/Files/Publications/Analytical notes/2013/an2013-10.pdf
Different country and all that and possibly explains why house prices are so high in New Zealand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWxru2ufKVw
NEW THREAD
I guess this is what all recent governments have meant by “creating the right conditions for business” - more than tax breaks or deregulation, it’s confidence that someone at the top table is watching out for you and is more likely than not to avoid screwing up whatever situation arises next. And *that* reputation has been comprehensively trashed by both main parties. Even if an implementation period is approved next week and is followed by a workable trade deal, surely this must already have had a measurable impact?
UK plc (and its employees) has my sympathy trying to navigate its way through current UK politics.