The YouGov normal poll with Labour only down one is good considering the wall to wall coverage of the Labour resignations . Now that some Tories have jumped ship we best wait to see whether that effects things . But its clear Labour will be hit badly especially in urban areas if they don’t support a second vote .
what on earth would a bad poll look like?
The one with TIG included: 12 points behind a government in disarray and within MoE of Labour's worst-ever share in opposition?
"Adding three Tories to the group muddies this message and carries considerable risks for the new venture. I wonder if it is too much, too soon. At the very least, it prises attention away from the crisis unleashed upon the Labour party by the Eight’s defection. It gives swithering Labour MPs – for there are many who secretly and sometimes less than secretly agree with the defectors’ views on Corbyn – an excuse to cancel their appointments with their consciences. Plenty of Labour MPs could imagine themselves joining an explicitly anti-Corbyn group; the bar for joining what now effectively becomes a new political party is much higher."
Wrong. However much you wish it were true.
Great response, I love how you logically took his argument apart point-by-point
Yes, it was a bit brief, he is predictably annoying. I've explained below.
"Adding three Tories to the group muddies this message and carries considerable risks for the new venture. I wonder if it is too much, too soon. At the very least, it prises attention away from the crisis unleashed upon the Labour party by the Eight’s defection. It gives swithering Labour MPs – for there are many who secretly and sometimes less than secretly agree with the defectors’ views on Corbyn – an excuse to cancel their appointments with their consciences. Plenty of Labour MPs could imagine themselves joining an explicitly anti-Corbyn group; the bar for joining what now effectively becomes a new political party is much higher."
I think it is overdoing it. It isn't like JRM has joined the Tiggers. Two of the three MPs who have left the Tories were fans of Cameron's direction for the Tory party, which wasn't a million miles away from New Labour.
There has always been a significant overlap between the view of the moderates in the two major parties. If both are determined to rid themselves of their centrists, actively or passively, it will create a large constituency for a party of the centre.
Support for remain is another overlapping but not identical set. Which encompasses somewhere around half of the electorate at a minimum.
Fortunately, we one (or two) by-elections in the offing.
Leaver-stan Newport West and Peterborough. Unpromising Tigger territory.
I don't even think -- in these two forthcoming real tests -- the Tiggers will even save their deposits.
Can you imagine Chuka pounding the streets of Peterborough?
Yes, but the vision always ends with a paramedic called by some kindly person sedating him and taking him away to calm down.
Edit - the whole point is (leaving aside the lack of a Peterborough by-election) they are not a party (yet) so will not be fielding candidates. They may endorse the Liberal Democrats but I doubt it.
The advantage of setting themselves up as they have rather than a new party is they are not under immediate pressure to prove themselves and risk a poor performance that would put off potential defectors. It would be smart of them not to contest either seat
"Adding three Tories to the group muddies this message and carries considerable risks for the new venture. I wonder if it is too much, too soon. At the very least, it prises attention away from the crisis unleashed upon the Labour party by the Eight’s defection. It gives swithering Labour MPs – for there are many who secretly and sometimes less than secretly agree with the defectors’ views on Corbyn – an excuse to cancel their appointments with their consciences. Plenty of Labour MPs could imagine themselves joining an explicitly anti-Corbyn group; the bar for joining what now effectively becomes a new political party is much higher."
Wrong. However much you wish it were true.
You don't think adding in some huffing single issue remoaners muddies the waters of the stop Corbyn coalition ?
Apart from Brexit - which could be put to bed in a month - what do these groups have in common other than "common purpose" and a dislike of bye elections ?
They are sensible, sane, liberal and pro-business. Which for a large proportion of the electorate seems like sheer Nirvana compared to the anti-commerce, bigoted clowns we have controlling the two major parties.
"Adding three Tories to the group muddies this message and carries considerable risks for the new venture. I wonder if it is too much, too soon. At the very least, it prises attention away from the crisis unleashed upon the Labour party by the Eight’s defection. It gives swithering Labour MPs – for there are many who secretly and sometimes less than secretly agree with the defectors’ views on Corbyn – an excuse to cancel their appointments with their consciences. Plenty of Labour MPs could imagine themselves joining an explicitly anti-Corbyn group; the bar for joining what now effectively becomes a new political party is much higher."
Wrong. However much you wish it were true.
You don't think adding in some huffing single issue remoaners muddies the waters of the stop Corbyn coalition ?
Apart from Brexit - which could be put to bed in a month - what do these groups have in common other than "common purpose" and a dislike of bye elections ?
They are sensible, sane, liberal and pro-business. Which for a large proportion of the electorate seems like sheer Nirvana compared to the anti-commerce, bigoted clowns we have controlling the two major parties.
That must be why the Lib Dems keep getting such great results.
I know it seems a bit of an outlandish suggestion, but is it possible that the TIGgers actually know what they are doing and have a coherent plan?
They were certainly right to wait until the Brexit endgame was in progress and at its most febrile. It's also meant that the threat of deselection has become very real for some. Six months ago there would have been no real prospect of Tories jumping ship to join Labour defectors.
In terms of polling, bear in mind that the YouGov poll was taken when defections were only from the Labour side. How much might be peeled off that 38% for the Conservatives on the news of today's defections?
It seems clear that the number of Labour if not Tory defectors will grow substantially in the forthcoming days. I expect that the TIG will become at least the 3rd opposition party, which is important in terms of HOC speaking rights. There is also quite a significant chance that Tom Watson will lead a huge block of MPs out in due course.
Fortunately, we one (or two) by-elections in the offing.
Leaver-stan Newport West and Peterborough. Unpromising Tigger territory.
I don't even think -- in these two forthcoming real tests -- the Tiggers will even save their deposits.
Can you imagine Chuka pounding the streets of Peterborough?
SDP fought P'boro in 1983 and got 23% from a previous Liberal 10%
What was the direct equivalent of Brexit back in '83?
IIRC the Labour Party stood under a manifesto in 83 that explicitly advocated leaving the EEC. Google "the longest suicide note in history".
Yes but there was no Brexit process already in place back then.
Other than the second-largest political party running on a manifesto that explicitly backed leaving the EEC, after having boycotted the 1979 European Parliament election.
The 3 Tory defectors already sitting with their ex Labour colleagues in the Commons as the anti Brexit faction they comprise is now the joint third biggest grouping from England, Wales and Northern Ireland in the Commons on a clear anti Brexit ticket
How many of them stood at the last election pledging not to implement Brexit? At the moment they look like the Voter-duping Collective. To coin a phrase "How can you trust anything the TIGgers ever say?"
At least Wollaston's defection means my voting Tory next time has gone from 0/10 to 6/10. Polling bounce for the Tories!
"Adding three Tories to the group muddies this message and carries considerable risks for the new venture. I wonder if it is too much, too soon. At the very least, it prises attention away from the crisis unleashed upon the Labour party by the Eight’s defection. It gives swithering Labour MPs – for there are many who secretly and sometimes less than secretly agree with the defectors’ views on Corbyn – an excuse to cancel their appointments with their consciences. Plenty of Labour MPs could imagine themselves joining an explicitly anti-Corbyn group; the bar for joining what now effectively becomes a new political party is much higher."
It always was going to be a new party, if it gathered speed. What could be more anti-Corbyn than that?
The desire is for something new in politics and for a different sort of politics. Looking (only) like a load of Labour retreads was a handicap, not an advantage.
Spot on. If Tig had failed to attract Tories, Flashman and his hard-right brethren would be falling over themselves to tell us that it was a failed project because... it had failed to attract Tories.
Looks very well orchestrated so far and has attracted several intelligent, switched on people from both sides of the House.
"Adding three Tories to the group muddies this message and carries considerable risks for the new venture. I wonder if it is too much, too soon. At the very least, it prises attention away from the crisis unleashed upon the Labour party by the Eight’s defection. It gives swithering Labour MPs – for there are many who secretly and sometimes less than secretly agree with the defectors’ views on Corbyn – an excuse to cancel their appointments with their consciences. Plenty of Labour MPs could imagine themselves joining an explicitly anti-Corbyn group; the bar for joining what now effectively becomes a new political party is much higher."
Wrong. However much you wish it were true.
You don't think adding in some huffing single issue remoaners muddies the waters of the stop Corbyn coalition ?
Apart from Brexit - which could be put to bed in a month - what do these groups have in common other than "common purpose" and a dislike of bye elections ?
They are sensible, sane, liberal and pro-business. Which for a large proportion of the electorate seems like sheer Nirvana compared to the anti-commerce, bigoted clowns we have controlling the two major parties.
That must be why the Lib Dems keep getting such great results.
In fairness they are a bunch of nobodies, led by the invisible man.
"Adding three Tories to the group muddies this message and carries considerable risks for the new venture. I wonder if it is too much, too soon. At the very least, it prises attention away from the crisis unleashed upon the Labour party by the Eight’s defection. It gives swithering Labour MPs – for there are many who secretly and sometimes less than secretly agree with the defectors’ views on Corbyn – an excuse to cancel their appointments with their consciences. Plenty of Labour MPs could imagine themselves joining an explicitly anti-Corbyn group; the bar for joining what now effectively becomes a new political party is much higher."
Wrong. However much you wish it were true.
You don't think adding in some huffing single issue remoaners muddies the waters of the stop Corbyn coalition ?
Apart from Brexit - which could be put to bed in a month - what do these groups have in common other than "common purpose" and a dislike of bye elections ?
They are sensible, sane, liberal and pro-business. Which for a large proportion of the electorate seems like sheer Nirvana compared to the anti-commerce, bigoted clowns we have controlling the two major parties.
That must be why the Lib Dems keep getting such great results.
"Adding three Tories to the group muddies this message and carries considerable risks for the new venture. I wonder if it is too much, too soon. At the very least, it prises attention away from the crisis unleashed upon the Labour party by the Eight’s defection. It gives swithering Labour MPs – for there are many who secretly and sometimes less than secretly agree with the defectors’ views on Corbyn – an excuse to cancel their appointments with their consciences. Plenty of Labour MPs could imagine themselves joining an explicitly anti-Corbyn group; the bar for joining what now effectively becomes a new political party is much higher."
Wrong. However much you wish it were true.
You don't think adding in some huffing single issue remoaners muddies the waters of the stop Corbyn coalition ?
Apart from Brexit - which could be put to bed in a month - what do these groups have in common other than "common purpose" and a dislike of bye elections ?
They are sensible, sane, liberal and pro-business. Which for a large proportion of the electorate seems like sheer Nirvana compared to the anti-commerce, bigoted clowns we have controlling the two major parties.
I would imagine the situation for TiG maybe plays out like this,
1. They sign a non-compete pact with Lib Dems - but no formal alliance - otherwise the two groups are fishing in the same pond i.e. more educated, wealthier, passionately anti-Brexit voters.
2. Would expect (in general - there will always be exceptions), TiG to focus on wealthier, professional, urban areas which vote Labour but where they do not have the baggage of tuition fees that the Lib Dems do, while the Lib Dems focus on more rural, smaller / wealthier towns where they have an existing infrastructure;
3. Hard to see how this move does not mean the Conservatives more pro-Brexit. The remain faction are now weakened and will be seen as potential defectors, which increases the chances of deselection, while every Tory remainer MP that goes, strengthens the hold of the hard-line Brexiteers; Plus that poll out showing the Tories on 38 with TiG on 14 suggests the Tories' voters are more hard-line Brexit than their MPs.
4. It increases the chances of a hard-line Brexit. The Labour leadership will do everything it can to take an opposite position to the TiG and TM is now more in-hoc to the hardline factions / voters.
One politics lecturer had helpfully pointed out that there were only 4 by-elections triggered by MPs crossing the political divide. Mark Reckless was the last one.
But as these people are demanding a "people's vote" the very least they can do, as such upstanding democrats, is give the people a vote on their new arrangements...
These kinds of double standards do get noticed by the electorate.
"Adding three Tories to the group muddies this message and carries considerable risks for the new venture. I wonder if it is too much, too soon. At the very least, it prises attention away from the crisis unleashed upon the Labour party by the Eight’s defection. It gives swithering Labour MPs – for there are many who secretly and sometimes less than secretly agree with the defectors’ views on Corbyn – an excuse to cancel their appointments with their consciences. Plenty of Labour MPs could imagine themselves joining an explicitly anti-Corbyn group; the bar for joining what now effectively becomes a new political party is much higher."
It always was going to be a new party, if it gathered speed. What could be more anti-Corbyn than that?
The desire is for something new in politics and for a different sort of politics. Looking (only) like a load of Labour retreads was a handicap, not an advantage.
Spot on. If Tig had failed to attract Tories, Flashman and his hard-right brethren would be falling over themselves to tell us that it was a failed project because... it had failed to attract Tories.
Looks very well orchestrated so far and has attracted several intelligent, switched on people from both sides of the House.
Very well orchestrated. And the fact that almost all of them were under threat of deselection is pure coincidence.
What does this mean for next Con leader? Loss of 3 votes out of 317, surely increases the chances of ERG getting a candidate into the final 2. And from there would be a heavy favourite.
What more could a new centrist grouping wish for than an ERG-led Tory party and a Corbyn-led Labour Party?
3. Hard to see how this move does not mean the Conservatives more pro-Brexit. The remain faction are now weakened and will be seen as potential defectors, which increases the chances of deselection, while every Tory remainer MP that goes, strengthens the hold of the hard-line Brexiteers; Plus that poll out showing the Tories on 38 with TiG on 14 suggests the Tories' voters are more hard-line Brexit than their MPs.
In the long term yes, but in the short term what matters is TMay, and TMay's whole thing seems to be running around frantically greasing whichever wheel is squeakiest.
One potentially important issue is how TIG would be treated by broadcasters in a GE campaign.
With no track record in any past elections they may not be given any significant coverage / not included in debates.
However they might be included based on opinion poll ratings.
I don't think it's clear cut - and it would be very important.
It's not clear cut, though I imagine the media companies will want to appear fair and avoid any unnecessary controversy, so I'd guess TIG (or any alliance within which TIG sit) would be treated on the basis of: - The number of candidates nominated; - Opinion poll scores; - Performance in other elections: local elections, devolved administrations, by-elections etc. Though I wouldn't be surprised if some effective discount was applied on the basis of a lack of history and hence an inability to prove that they can cut it on the biggest stage.
"Adding three Tories to the group muddies this message and carries considerable risks for the new venture. I wonder if it is too much, too soon. At the very least, it prises attention away from the crisis unleashed upon the Labour party by the Eight’s defection. It gives swithering Labour MPs – for there are many who secretly and sometimes less than secretly agree with the defectors’ views on Corbyn – an excuse to cancel their appointments with their consciences. Plenty of Labour MPs could imagine themselves joining an explicitly anti-Corbyn group; the bar for joining what now effectively becomes a new political party is much higher."
Wrong. However much you wish it were true.
You don't think adding in some huffing single issue remoaners muddies the waters of the stop Corbyn coalition ?
Apart from Brexit - which could be put to bed in a month - what do these groups have in common other than "common purpose" and a dislike of bye elections ?
They are sensible, sane, liberal and pro-business. Which for a large proportion of the electorate seems like sheer Nirvana compared to the anti-commerce, bigoted clowns we have controlling the two major parties.
I would imagine the situation for TiG maybe plays out like this,
1. They sign a non-compete pact with Lib Dems - but no formal alliance - otherwise the two groups are fishing in the same pond i.e. more educated, wealthier, passionately anti-Brexit voters.
2. Would expect (in general - there will always be exceptions), TiG to focus on wealthier, professional, urban areas which vote Labour but where they do not have the baggage of tuition fees that the Lib Dems do, while the Lib Dems focus on more rural, smaller / wealthier towns where they have an existing infrastructure;
3. Hard to see how this move does not mean the Conservatives more pro-Brexit. The remain faction are now weakened and will be seen as potential defectors, which increases the chances of deselection, while every Tory remainer MP that goes, strengthens the hold of the hard-line Brexiteers; Plus that poll out showing the Tories on 38 with TiG on 14 suggests the Tories' voters are more hard-line Brexit than their MPs.
4. It increases the chances of a hard-line Brexit. The Labour leadership will do everything it can to take an opposite position to the TiG and TM is now more in-hoc to the hardline factions / voters.
On that last, Labour (even ex-TIG Labour) simply can't afford to turn its back on most of its members and its youthful electoral support like that.
One potentially important issue is how TIG would be treated by broadcasters in a GE campaign.
With no track record in any past elections they may not be given any significant coverage / not included in debates.
However they might be included based on opinion poll ratings.
I don't think it's clear cut - and it would be very important.
It's not clear cut, though I imagine the media companies will want to appear fair and avoid any unnecessary controversy, so I'd guess TIG (or any alliance within which TIG sit) would be treated on the basis of: - The number of candidates nominated; - Opinion poll scores; - Performance in other elections: local elections, devolved administrations, by-elections etc. Though I wouldn't be surprised if some effective discount was applied on the basis of a lack of history and hence an inability to prove that they can cut it on the biggest stage.
It always was going to be a new party, if it gathered speed. What could be more anti-Corbyn than that?
The desire is for something new in politics and for a different sort of politics. Looking (only) like a load of Labour retreads was a handicap, not an advantage.
I agree. Our 2 party system only works well on the premise that both of the parties are 'broad churches', i.e. are themselves coalitions, Labour of socialists and social democrats, the Conservatives of baby-eaters and those merely in favour of it.
Once these broad churches burn down and are replaced with little thin churches, as has happened with Labour and seems to be in the process of happening with the Cons, then the situation which ensues is not, for any length of time, tenable.
So, yes, for Chuka, the trousers are tight, the time is right, the future's bright.
3. Hard to see how this move does not mean the Conservatives more pro-Brexit. The remain faction are now weakened and will be seen as potential defectors, which increases the chances of deselection, while every Tory remainer MP that goes, strengthens the hold of the hard-line Brexiteers; Plus that poll out showing the Tories on 38 with TiG on 14 suggests the Tories' voters are more hard-line Brexit than their MPs.
In the long term yes, but in the short term what matters is TMay, and TMay's whole thing seems to be running around frantically greasing whichever wheel is squeakiest.
The Tories are now the Brexit Party: there is no other destination.
Don't feel sorry for them. It is what most of them have always wanted.
What levels does TIG need to reach in the polls before BoZo thinks defecting might be his best chance of becoming PM?
If we follow the same route as the SDP we might see TIG with a 10-15% lead by Christmas?
They've got a real issue in that their top targets would be identical to the Lib Dems, and likely places Labour is miles and miles out in front (Bristol West). Meanwhile they won't be taking Tory seats in Brexitshire any time soon.
What does this mean for next Con leader? Loss of 3 votes out of 317, surely increases the chances of ERG getting a candidate into the final 2. And from there would be a heavy favourite.
What more could a new centrist grouping wish for than an ERG-led Tory party and a Corbyn-led Labour Party?
The Independents against Independence represent everything people didn’t like about politics 2000-2016. Since then we have had millions of people engaged by Leave and Corbyn. Their reaction seems to be to refuse to accept the public could be right.
I know it seems a bit of an outlandish suggestion, but is it possible that the TIGgers actually know what they are doing and have a coherent plan?
Pause.
Thinks.
Do you know, that's a bloody good question. Well done you. I have no idea...
Maybe it seems the giant majority commanded by Blair is now being seen as the only way to get the centre back in power. Moderate Tories and Blairite Labour joining forces. Possibly a sensible leader off of a giant majority.
Phillip Lee disagrees with "timing". Worried that Party is becoming UKIP lite. Won't be "only him" going if it continues. Cites bullying by Associations.
That's not really what it said, is it? The 43% said leaving the EU on May's deal would be worse than Remaining. You can be a hard-line Brexiteer and answer yes to that. It is what Steve Baker was implying the other day when he retweeted the Telegraph article about suggesting we stay in and wreck the EU from the inside rather than leave on May's deal.
All of these 'working class leave labour diehards', at what point will they stop? Local factory shuts down, left wing opposition to Tory rule collapses, soon we will just be left with the blokes from Monty Python explaining how they lived off a handful of gravel but still bloody well back BREXIT.
That's not really what it said, is it? The 43% said leaving the EU on May's deal would be worse than Remaining. You can be a hard-line Brexiteer and answer yes to that. It is what Steve Baker was implying the other day when he retweeted the Telegraph article about suggesting we stay in and wreck the EU from the inside rather than leave on May's deal.
It doesn't matter why they prefer Remain, only that they do.
The Independents against Independence represent everything people didn’t like about politics 2000-2016. Since then we have had millions of people engaged by Leave and Corbyn. Their reaction seems to be to refuse to accept the public could be right.
If you are right the public will reject them. If you are wrong then they won't. That's democracy.
Disappointed by the turncoats, but I don't see what they have in common with the Tiggers other than Brexit. Once it has a resolution, one way or another, I don't see how these three can stay in a group with those eight (or more) from Labour.
Outside of Europe, Allen and Soubry are pretty Conservative and agree with the party on almost every other issue.
Hopefully the PM gets the deal through in the next few weeks and we can finally see the back of the party split on Europe.
Comments
Support for remain is another overlapping but not identical set. Which encompasses somewhere around half of the electorate at a minimum.
Cons 41
Lab 33
Libs 10
Ukip 4
Green 4
Gives a con majority of 32
https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1097241605478715392
In terms of polling, bear in mind that the YouGov poll was taken when defections were only from the Labour side. How much might be peeled off that 38% for the Conservatives on the news of today's defections?
It seems clear that the number of Labour if not Tory defectors will grow substantially in the forthcoming days. I expect that the TIG will become at least the 3rd opposition party, which is important in terms of HOC speaking rights. There is also quite a significant chance that Tom Watson will lead a huge block of MPs out in due course.
Maybe - but I can't see leave winning again tbh. Just too much bad news, and the economic weather is getting worse every month.
I'd guess we're heading for one of the two though.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/20/britons-may-need-52-visa-to-visit-mainland-europe-after-brexit
With no track record in any past elections they may not be given any significant coverage / not included in debates.
However they might be included based on opinion poll ratings.
I don't think it's clear cut - and it would be very important.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/feb/20/bernie-sanders-2020-presidential-campaign-fundraising
TIGgers ever say?"
At least Wollaston's defection means my voting Tory next time has gone from 0/10 to 6/10. Polling bounce for the Tories!
The yet bit is interesting...
Worth noting that she represents a seat that was Lib Dem-held until 2015, so it's not unthinkable that she could retain it as a TIG MP.
False flag claims of anti-semitism
MSM biased against Jeremy
Stop making stuff up
Luciana Berger should have rung Jez because it 'takes two to tango'
1. They sign a non-compete pact with Lib Dems - but no formal alliance - otherwise the two groups are fishing in the same pond i.e. more educated, wealthier, passionately anti-Brexit voters.
2. Would expect (in general - there will always be exceptions), TiG to focus on wealthier, professional, urban areas which vote Labour but where they do not have the baggage of tuition fees that the Lib Dems do, while the Lib Dems focus on more rural, smaller / wealthier towns where they have an existing infrastructure;
3. Hard to see how this move does not mean the Conservatives more pro-Brexit. The remain faction are now weakened and will be seen as potential defectors, which increases the chances of deselection, while every Tory remainer MP that goes, strengthens the hold of the hard-line Brexiteers; Plus that poll out showing the Tories on 38 with TiG on 14 suggests the Tories' voters are more hard-line Brexit than their MPs.
4. It increases the chances of a hard-line Brexit. The Labour leadership will do everything it can to take an opposite position to the TiG and TM is now more in-hoc to the hardline factions / voters.
These kinds of double standards do get noticed by the electorate.
oh.
oh wow.
- The number of candidates nominated;
- Opinion poll scores;
- Performance in other elections: local elections, devolved administrations, by-elections etc.
Though I wouldn't be surprised if some effective discount was applied on the basis of a lack of history and hence an inability to prove that they can cut it on the biggest stage.
Also, it's important to include the full polling with DKs in the mix.
Today's You Gov poll in the format that matters:
Don't Know 31
Con 22
Lab 15
TIG 9
LD 4
SNP 3
Other 7
Won't Vote 10
The huge number of DKs illustrates I think why May would be utterly barking to call an election now.
https://twitter.com/ChukaUmunna/status/1098195425310531584
That could be more appealing for TM
Nothing committed to paper. But with a nod and a wink?
Once these broad churches burn down and are replaced with little thin churches, as has happened with Labour and seems to be in the process of happening with the Cons, then the situation which ensues is not, for any length of time, tenable.
So, yes, for Chuka, the trousers are tight, the time is right, the future's bright.
Don't feel sorry for them. It is what most of them have always wanted.
All about her it would seem - 'my country needs me'.
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/tkwnu2z8xr/Internal_190207_BrexitDraftDeal_w.pdf
She'll be an excellent leader for this new group
This is potentially transformative stuff..
Good line.
The optics of all these intelligent women leaving parties full of braying shouty wankers isn't lost on me, and won't be on lots of female voters.
Outside of Europe, Allen and Soubry are pretty Conservative and agree with the party on almost every other issue.
Hopefully the PM gets the deal through in the next few weeks and we can finally see the back of the party split on Europe.
No wonder the PB Tories and PB Corbynites are frit.