The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
I don't think is overblown. Honda are not a bunch of kids. One of Project Fear's biggest predictions has just come true.
As a Leaver I have to accept this. They were right.
There will now be intense pressure for the UK to stay in the SM as well as the CU.
Why? To make things easier for struggling companies that are already choosing to leave?
The irony is that if Honda is going there's less reason to come up with a Brexit that will keep them here. We can instead concentrate on a big picture what is best for Britain Brexit.
Project Fear said that Brexit would decimate our car industry, taking with it up to half a million jobs. It was dismissed. And at first, with the assurances from Toyota/Nissan etc, it did seem like the Remainery threats were overblown.
Now, with Honda adding an entire plant closure to the earlier news of the X-trail, it is undeniably the case that Project Fear looks way more believable. We really *could* lose large chunks of an entire industry, which constitutes 12% of our exports and supports a million jobs.
Any Leaver who ignores this is an idiot. It's a sobering moment. Even if the cause is not entirely down to Brexit (the EU/Japan FTA is surely a huge factor) it certainly feels like nightmare Brexit is coming true. This has the potential to change the debate in parliament, entirely.
Possibly. But, Philip Thompson is not wrong that job gains have far outweighed job losses over the past two years. Thousands of businesses creating dozens of new jobs each attract no headlines.
So far this week that's BMI's closure that has nothing to do with Brexit and Honda's closure that has nothing to do with Brexit. It's still only Monday, so plenty more days this week for other bad business news that has nothing to do with Brexit.
Alternatively you could look at the macroeconomic figures and over the last 6 months we've seen Britain grow faster than any other G7 European economy and we have seen employment surge to record highs.
To be fair, others are doing badly, rather than us doing well.
That doesn't explain our employment levels surging to record highs at a time people keep highlighting supposed job losses.
No-one has mentioned how well the rest of the British car industry is doing at the moment, specially the more specialist manufacturers. Aston Martin, Bentley, Rolls-Royce and McLaren have all expanded over the past couple of years and have long waiting lists for new models. McLaren alone have added 1,000 staff in the last year or two, and have opened a new factory in Sheffield to make advanced carbon composite car bodies.
The popular end of the car industry though, that’s in utter turmoil everywhere in the world, has been for the last couple of years and will be for the next couple of years too.
Exactly! Well said.
We need to concentrate our efforts on what works. Practical reality-based and evidence-based policies. Not pandering to fearmongers and paranoia.
Where we are competitive, where industry is competitive, we are growing well. The answer is not to turn inwards into sclerotic Europe and try and pander to dying diesel lines.
The common thread on both the decisions by Japanese car companies in recent weeks is that the new trade deal that the EU has agreed with Japan means that there will effectively be no tariffs on Japanese imports. This makes the costs of transporting the parts and then assembling the cars in the UK no longer attractive. It is cheaper to do this at home and then export the completed product.
The consequences of this deal would thus have been the same whether we remain full members of the EU or not. [snip]
No, that's wrong. Yes, the EU deal with Japan make it a bit more attractive to build the cars in Japan, but that's only half the story: the UK leaving the EU makes it less attractive to build them here. It is no doubt the combination of the two which they will be assessing - and what's the point of building in the UK if that doesn't give seamless access to the Single Market combined with efficient supply-chain logistics?
But we don't know whether we will have that or not yet because the FTA is yet to be negotiated. As I said it doesn't help to have continuing uncertainty about this but it would be astonishing if we had anything less than a FTA with the EU in due course. What is new right now is the Japan/EU deal and it seems more likely to me that that is driving these decisions.
It's like the advice about being smartly dressed at interviews. It won't get you the job, but it won't lose it for you either.
Its always the same. You need to add value. What's in it for the customer? We need to play to our strengths (excellent research, science and creativity, decent sized home market) and minimise our weaknesses (less than top of the range infrastructure, limited domestic supply market, pretty ordinary productivity overall). Brexit can add to our weaknesses if we let it. The sooner we have a FTA with the EU the better. Our political class needs to stop messing about.
Britain has a comprehensive FTA with the EU. You voted to junk it.
Sort of on topic....Car financing looks to me like it could be the next version of sub-prime mortgages. There seems to have been crazy amounts of cheap car financing that has been pumped into the market over the past 10 years.
Over the past decade, there has been a significant shift in patterns of consumer behaviour in relation to purchasing of new cars. UK private car registrations were 39% higher in 2016 than they were in 2011, a trend which has in part been driven by the expansion of the Personal Contract Purchase (PCP) deals. Some 82% of private new car purchases was financed in this way in 2016. PCPs contribution to the rise in unsecured borrowing is firmly on the radar of both the Bank of England (BoE) and Financial Conduct Authority (FCA).
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
But it keeps happening. Remainers don't have to keep explaining away big inward investment stories.
If Greg Clark is any good he will be on a plane to see Elon Musk first and then James Dyson. Purpose built car manufacturing facility and workforce. Seeing as we will be out of the EU he can offer all sorts of state aid incentives.
The thought will not even enter his head.
VW have just spent over €1bn on refurbishing a single factory for production of electric cars. I suspect it would be as cheaper to build afresh than to repurpose.
If Greg Clark is any good he will be on a plane to see Elon Musk first and then James Dyson. Purpose built car manufacturing facility and workforce. Seeing as we will be out of the EU he can offer all sorts of state aid incentives.
The thought will not even enter his head.
Greg Clark wouldn't have the vision to see a great opportunity for the UK if it was perched on the end of his nose.
Many Brexiteers will probably argue that we ought to have a home-grown car industry, rather than relying on decisions taken by foreign businesses. (Not my opinion, just trying to think like they do).
Not so much home grown but home developed, that is developed here whatever nationality the ultimate owners have. We have some excellent expertise in car manufacturing in the UK, mainly at the top end of motorsport. Our government and education institutions need to be more focused on what these manufacturers want in terms of skills and development so that their next cars are developed and then improved here. If we achieve this we are more likely to retain the metal bashing bits.
We are at a critical point where much of existing manufacture for cars is not going to be renewed on anything like the same basis. Diesels are on their way out. We have both a threat and an opportunity in the clean slates that electric vehicles are going to introduce.
Good point about motorsport too. There's close to 10k people just working for the F1 teams in the UK, mostly in highly skilled jobs.
Don't be misled my the German national anthem playing for Mercedes when they win a race, the car is 100% British and made by over 1,500 people at Brackley and Brixworth.
Sort of on topic....Car financing looks to me like it could be the next version of sub-prime mortgages. There seems to have been crazy amounts of cheap car financing that has been pumped into the market over the past 10 years.
Mark Carney took action about 18 months ago to reduce the excesses. This along with dieselgate and the stupid VED hikes by the useless CoE have all contributed to the decline in new car sales in the UK.
A busy morning for me so a first chance to catch up on what I'm told is a "momentous" day in politics.
I think Chuka and the others have handled this quite well - we aren't talking a new Party as such yet but instead a clear break from Labour in terms of "we haven't left Labour, Labour has left us" suggesting IF the Party shifts away from Corbyn-esque policies, they will be back.
Leaving a political party isn't easy if you've been a member for decades but instead of rushing to another party, the seven have decided to call themselves Independent and allow themselves time to formulate policy positions across, I suspect, a range of issues not just Brexit.
As to whether this will lead to more resignations and defections, we'll see. It's more likely, I think, the seven will be able to attract back some ex-Labour supporters who have already departed since Corbyn became leader and those who have never had any political allegiance.
As might be expected, an orchestrated campaign from the Right to denigrate and belittle the new grouping from the start (no surprise as this group has the potential to be a far greater threat to the Conservatives than Corbyn) while the Left goes more with the "sorrow than anger" tab.
We also hear once again "rumours" and "reports" of "progress" between May and the EU - we've been here before of course and a lot of it may be supporters of the PM whistling as the clock counts down to Feb 27th.
I just read your penultimate paragraph with utter astonishment. The attacks are coming from the hard left and as a conservative I have nothing but admiration for these mps who were clearly very emotional in their resignation speeches. The word blinkered springs to mind
Many Brexiteers will probably argue that we ought to have a home-grown car industry, rather than relying on decisions taken by foreign businesses. (Not my opinion, just trying to think like they do).
Not so much home grown but home developed, that is developed here whatever nationality the ultimate owners have. We have some excellent expertise in car manufacturing in the UK, mainly at the top end of motorsport. Our government and education institutions need to be more focused on what these manufacturers want in terms of skills and development so that their next cars are developed and then improved here. If we achieve this we are more likely to retain the metal bashing bits.
We are at a critical point where much of existing manufacture for cars is not going to be renewed on anything like the same basis. Diesels are on their way out. We have both a threat and an opportunity in the clean slates that electric vehicles are going to introduce.
Good point about motorsport too. There's close to 10k people just working for the F1 teams in the UK, mostly in highly skilled jobs.
Don't be misled my the German national anthem playing for Mercedes when they win a race, the car is 100% British and made by over 1,500 people at Brackley and Brixworth.
Honda have said F1 part of the business is staying in the UK.
If Greg Clark is any good he will be on a plane to see Elon Musk first and then James Dyson. Purpose built car manufacturing facility and workforce. Seeing as we will be out of the EU he can offer all sorts of state aid incentives.
The thought will not even enter his head.
Greg Clark wouldn't have the vision to see a great opportunity for the UK if it was perched on the end of his nose.
The Water-Twice-Weekly Leavers blaming a Remain-voting minister for the consequences of their own decision.
Many Brexiteers will probably argue that we ought to have a home-grown car industry, rather than relying on decisions taken by foreign businesses. (Not my opinion, just trying to think like they do).
Not so much home grown but home developed, that is developed here whatever nationality the ultimate owners have. We have some excellent expertise in car manufacturing in the UK, mainly at the top end of motorsport. Our government and education institutions need to be more focused on what these manufacturers want in terms of skills and development so that their next cars are developed and then improved here. If we achieve this we are more likely to retain the metal bashing bits.
We are at a critical point where much of existing manufacture for cars is not going to be renewed on anything like the same basis. Diesels are on their way out. We have both a threat and an opportunity in the clean slates that electric vehicles are going to introduce.
Good point about motorsport too. There's close to 10k people just working for the F1 teams in the UK, mostly in highly skilled jobs.
Don't be misled my the German national anthem playing for Mercedes when they win a race, the car is 100% British and made by over 1,500 people at Brackley and Brixworth.
Honda have said F1 part of the business is staying in the UK.
Gee its almost as if Honda has made its decisions based on what is and isn't working for their company and not due to Brexit.
Both the two main parties are now old-fashioned political dinsosaurs that are ruled by their long histories and by extremist members who are not accountable to the public. This is just the right time for a new party to be formed.
At least it could give the voters a choice that they do not really have at the moment.
The extent and speed by which people have forgotten the Lib Dems is extraordinary. Less than four years ago, they were a party of government with 50-odd seats and probably around two dozen ministers.
Sort of on topic....Car financing looks to me like it could be the next version of sub-prime mortgages. There seems to have been crazy amounts of cheap car financing that has been pumped into the market over the past 10 years.
Mark Carney took action about 18 months ago to reduce the excesses. This along with dieselgate and the stupid VED hikes by the useless CoE have all contributed to the decline in new car sales in the UK.
Back in 2008 they discovered in America that people would prioritise their car loan / lease before their mortgage repayment as you need a car to get to work...
Could we potentially strike a similiar FTA deal that the Japanese have done with the EU ? What were Japan's red lines etc..
We have far less economic clout than the EU. Again this was not difficult to foresee.
I have to say the reaction of Leavers (with the admirable exception of @SeanT ) to the Honda news is depressingly mindboggling.
They are arm waving away a critical decision by a major UK-based manufacturer to leave the UK as though it was irrelevant and we were better off without them.
Brexit was supposed to allow the UK to strike trade deals, increase inward investment, and generally free us to be an economic industrial and services powerhouse. And yet we have had example after example of precisely the opposite of this: excluded from trade deals, and cancelled investment.
Further, they miss the transparently obvious fact that whether directly related to Brexit or not, Brexit is not helping; it does not contribute to a more benign economic environment.
Such thinking really does betray the most extraordinary, warped, small-minded, insular, Little Englander, pig ignorant mindset.
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
But it keeps happening. Remainers don't have to keep explaining away big inward investment stories.
Yet employment levels keep surging ever upwards.
And, will probably further show a further rise tomorrow, but the flip side of my comment to Sean T is that one business shedding 3,500 jobs will generate far more publicity than lots of businesses generating more jobs in aggregate.
Could we potentially strike a similiar FTA deal that the Japanese have done with the EU ? What were Japan's red lines etc..
We have far less economic clout than the EU. Again this was not difficult to foresee.
I have to say the reaction of Leavers (with the admirable exception of @SeanT ) to the Honda news is depressingly mindboggling.
They are arm waving away a critical decision by a major UK-based manufacturer to leave the UK as though it was irrelevant and we were better off without them.
Brexit was supposed to allow the UK to strike trade deals, increase inward investment, and generally free us to be an economic industrial and services powerhouse. And yet we have had example after example of precisely the opposite of this: excluded from trade deals, and cancelled investment.
Further, they miss the transparently obvious fact that whether directly related to Brexit or not, Brexit is not helping; it does not contribute to a more benign economic environment.
Such thinking really does betray the most extraordinary, warped, small-minded, insular, Little Englander, pig ignorant mindset.
They would rather eat grass than give up on their narrow-minded reactionary dream.
Before Labour's split today and Honda the news was supposed to be about Fake news and Facebook.
While I will cover that later to scare people here is a website that generates completely fake faces ready to add to the computer generated fake life story and the computer generated stories https://thispersondoesnotexist.com/
The extent and speed by which people have forgotten the Lib Dems is extraordinary. Less than four years ago, they were a party of government with 50-odd seats and probably around two dozen ministers.
I know. Truly bizarre. Are they not a socially liberal, mixed economy, pro EU, internationalist, tax and spend but fiscally prudent sort of an outfit?
Course they are. So WTF do we need a 'new' actor in that space?
Swindon MP: "Honda decision nothing to do with Brexit, since all European production will be moving to Japan by 2021".
If that is correct, how many plants does Honda have across Europe?
only other plant is in Turkey, this plant makes Civics for continental EU. The Civics made in the UK were for RoW with Japan and USA being the main markets.
Are you saying that the Civics made here were not for the EU market?
I don’t know, it’s depends if one is a malignant excuse for a human being sitting in France opining on other peoples’ future with the vitriol and the bitterness of the gin-soaked expat. You?
Swindon MP: "Honda decision nothing to do with Brexit, since all European production will be moving to Japan by 2021".
If that is correct, how many plants does Honda have across Europe?
only other plant is in Turkey, this plant makes Civics for continental EU. The Civics made in the UK were for RoW with Japan and USA being the main markets.
Are you saying that the Civics made here were not for the EU market?
Confirmed by Honda . The threat of new tariffs as the UK leaves the EU was the final straw .
I posted that I could not understand the EU position in not locking in the trade deal early. This will also hurt their suppliers to Honda based on the continent as well. They have a cut of your nose to spite your face brexit strategy.
Many Brexiteers will probably argue that we ought to have a home-grown car industry, rather than relying on decisions taken by foreign businesses. (Not my opinion, just trying to think like they do).
Not so much home grown but home developed, that is developed here whatever nationality the ultimate owners have. We have some excellent expertise in car manufacturing in the UK, mainly at the top end of motorsport. Our government and education institutions need to be more focused on what these manufacturers want in terms of skills and development so that their next cars are developed and then improved here. If we achieve this we are more likely to retain the metal bashing bits.
We are at a critical point where much of existing manufacture for cars is not going to be renewed on anything like the same basis. Diesels are on their way out. We have both a threat and an opportunity in the clean slates that electric vehicles are going to introduce.
Good point about motorsport too. There's close to 10k people just working for the F1 teams in the UK, mostly in highly skilled jobs.
Don't be misled my the German national anthem playing for Mercedes when they win a race, the car is 100% British and made by over 1,500 people at Brackley and Brixworth.
Honda have said F1 part of the business is staying in the UK.
Gee its almost as if Honda has made its decisions based on what is and isn't working for their company and not due to Brexit.
It doesn't matter. Even if you are right (I am very skeptical) the optics are what count. This *feels* like Remainers being vindicated, explosively, in headline news - and it will instil fear - as intended - into everyone in the country with a job related to car manufacturing. That's a million people. Add in their families.
Then add in everyone else with a job in manufacturing, or exporting to the EU in any way.
This is big.
Absolutely it feeds into fear, but then fear was always there. That doesn't make it right.
The reality is completely different to the fear. I believe it is appropriate to act based on evidence, logic and reason and not pandering to fear and paranoia.
Confirmed by Honda . The threat of new tariffs as the UK leaves the EU was the final straw .
The MP was misinformed?
He voted Brexit and is desperately trying to spin this as not related to that . Because of the new EU Japan trade deal the UK no longer has that strong advantage . I’m not saying it’s just related to that but Brexit is adding another variable into the mix into already worrying times for UK car makers .
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
But it keeps happening. Remainers don't have to keep explaining away big inward investment stories.
Yet employment levels keep surging ever upwards.
And, will probably further show a further rise tomorrow, but the flip side of my comment to Sean T is that one business shedding 3,500 jobs will generate far more publicity than lots of businesses generating more jobs in aggregate.
You do realise that it won't just be 3,500 jobs. It will be all the jobs that support those jobs, the ancillary industries, the suppliers, the hauliers, right down to little corner shops in Swindon. The Honda plant was one of the biggest employers in the West Country.
It could take another 10,000 jobs with it.
I appreciate that, and it's very damaging, but it remains the case that net employment growth has proved to be very strong. It's not like the early eighties.
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
But it keeps happening. Remainers don't have to keep explaining away big inward investment stories.
Yet employment levels keep surging ever upwards.
And, will probably further show a further rise tomorrow, but the flip side of my comment to Sean T is that one business shedding 3,500 jobs will generate far more publicity than lots of businesses generating more jobs in aggregate.
You do realise that it won't just be 3,500 jobs. It will be all the jobs that support those jobs, the ancillary industries, the suppliers, the hauliers, right down to little corner shops in Swindon. The Honda plant was one of the biggest employers in the West Country.
It could take another 10,000 jobs with it.
And that is always the consequence of losing a big manfacturer. While brexit is not the driver in this decision in the publics eyes it may well be.
We need TM's deal passed fast and lift some of the doom
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
But it keeps happening. Remainers don't have to keep explaining away big inward investment stories.
Yet employment levels keep surging ever upwards.
And, will probably further show a further rise tomorrow, but the flip side of my comment to Sean T is that one business shedding 3,500 jobs will generate far more publicity than lots of businesses generating more jobs in aggregate.
You do realise that it won't just be 3,500 jobs. It will be all the jobs that support those jobs, the ancillary industries, the suppliers, the hauliers, right down to little corner shops in Swindon. The Honda plant was one of the biggest employers in the West Country.
It could take another 10,000 jobs with it.
And that is always the consequence of losing a big manfacturer. While brexit is not the driver in this decision in the publics eyes it may well be.
We need TM's deal passed fast and lift some of the doom
We do indeed. But, we should not expect a major boost to growth, as economic numbers are weak everywhere.
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
But it keeps happening. Remainers don't have to keep explaining away big inward investment stories.
Yet employment levels keep surging ever upwards.
And, will probably further show a further rise tomorrow, but the flip side of my comment to Sean T is that one business shedding 3,500 jobs will generate far more publicity than lots of businesses generating more jobs in aggregate.
You do realise that it won't just be 3,500 jobs. It will be all the jobs that support those jobs, the ancillary industries, the suppliers, the hauliers, right down to little corner shops in Swindon. The Honda plant was one of the biggest employers in the West Country.
It could take another 10,000 jobs with it.
I appreciate that, and it's very damaging, but it remains the case that net employment growth has proved to be very strong. It's not like the early eighties.
The Japanese news on Honda and Nissan has more to do with the EU offering zero tariffs (may be to spite the UK for brexit) and the Japanese would rather manufacture in Japan than the UK . If the zero tariff agreement had happened without Brexit I dare say the Japanese companies would still be relocating back to Japan anyway.
Confirmed by Honda . The threat of new tariffs as the UK leaves the EU was the final straw .
The MP was misinformed?
He voted Brexit and is desperately trying to spin this as not related to that . Because of the new EU Japan trade deal the UK no longer has that strong advantage . I’m not saying it’s just related to that but Brexit is adding another variable into the mix into already worrying times for UK car makers .
Given that none of the cars made at Swindon were for the European market and that the plant that does serve the European market is outside the EU how on earth does the Japan trade deal make a blind bit if difference?
When the other announcement was made some weeks ago, the BBC focus was entirely on us leaving the EU, and I don't think they mentioned the EU-Japanese trade deal once. Shoddy reporting.
Apparently Toto Wolff has some biting comments on the UK/EU situation, to come fairly soon.
Edited extra bit: for those unaware, Wolff is one of the chaps running Mercedes' F1 team.
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
I don't think is overblown. Honda are not a bunch of kids. One of Project Fear's biggest predictions has just come true.
As a Leaver I have to accept this. They were right.
There will now be intense pressure for the UK to stay in the SM as well as the CU.
Why? To make things easier for struggling companies that are already choosing to leave?
The irony is that if Honda is going there's less reason to come up with a Brexit that will keep them here. We can instead concentrate on a big picture what is best for Britain Brexit.
Good to see you have embraced Boris' view of and attitude to business.
I've not. I want to build a positive picture for what is best for business globally for the UK.
Not cling on to dead diesel zombies. Other posters talking about ensuring we are competitive for electric cars etc is infinitely more important for the UK's future than banging on about failing diesel models.
Sixteen out of the 21 Civic configs available are petrol, only 5 diesel, and Honda's plan is for two thirds of its Europe sales to be hybrid or fully electric by 2025. So what is your point?
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
But it keeps happening. Remainers don't have to keep explaining away big inward investment stories.
Yet employment levels keep surging ever upwards.
And, will probably further show a further rise tomorrow, but the flip side of my comment to Sean T is that one business shedding 3,500 jobs will generate far more publicity than lots of businesses generating more jobs in aggregate.
You do realise that it won't just be 3,500 jobs. It will be all the jobs that support those jobs, the ancillary industries, the suppliers, the hauliers, right down to little corner shops in Swindon. The Honda plant was one of the biggest employers in the West Country.
It could take another 10,000 jobs with it.
And that is always the consequence of losing a big manfacturer. While brexit is not the driver in this decision in the publics eyes it may well be.
We need TM's deal passed fast and lift some of the doom
Why? When as you have said "Brexit is not the driver in this decision"?
Why pander to those who are trying to cause fear when it is not real. We need a deal if a deal is right for us, not because the optics of real life changes happen to look a particular way.
He is on the money but both Danny 565 and Bjo prefer sneering at the Angela Smith gaffe. It's so much easier than a morsel of reflection .
Tbf, the Angela Smith gaffe was extraordinary. I still can't work out what she was trying to say (giving her the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't "funny tinge" or equivalent).
EDIT: just seen @bigjohnowls's post - ok, extraordinary...
Many Brexiteers will probably argue that we ought to have a home-grown car industry, rather than relying on decisions taken by foreign businesses. (Not my opinion, just trying to think like they do).
Not so much home grown but home developed, that is developed here whatever nationality the ultimate owners have. We have some excellent expertise in car manufacturing in the UK, mainly at the top end of motorsport. Our government and education institutions need to be more focused on what these manufacturers want in terms of skills and development so that their next cars are developed and then improved here. If we achieve this we are more likely to retain the metal bashing bits.
We are at a critical point where much of existing manufacture for cars is not going to be renewed on anything like the same basis. Diesels are on their way out. We have both a threat and an opportunity in the clean slates that electric vehicles are going to introduce.
Good point about motorsport too. There's close to 10k people just working for the F1 teams in the UK, mostly in highly skilled jobs.
Don't be misled my the German national anthem playing for Mercedes when they win a race, the car is 100% British and made by over 1,500 people at Brackley and Brixworth.
Honda have said F1 part of the business is staying in the UK.
A big part of the problems Honda have had in recent years with their F1 engine development, has been because they insisted in doing it all in-house from Japan, rather than taking advantage of the massive pool of talent based in the UK. Now they’re working with Red Bull (don’t be confused by the Austrian national anthem, that car’s British too!) they’ve moved a lot of engineers to the UK.
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
But it keeps happening. Remainers don't have to keep explaining away big inward investment stories.
Yet employment levels keep surging ever upwards.
And, will probably further show a further rise tomorrow, but the flip side of my comment to Sean T is that one business shedding 3,500 jobs will generate far more publicity than lots of businesses generating more jobs in aggregate.
You do realise that it won't just be 3,500 jobs. It will be all the jobs that support those jobs, the ancillary industries, the suppliers, the hauliers, right down to little corner shops in Swindon. The Honda plant was one of the biggest employers in the West Country.
It could take another 10,000 jobs with it.
I appreciate that, and it's very damaging, but it remains the case that net employment growth has proved to be very strong. It's not like the early eighties.
The Japanese news on Honda and Nissan has more to do with the EU offering zero tariffs (may be to spite the UK for brexit) and the Japanese would rather manufacture in Japan than the UK . If the zero tariff agreement had happened without Brexit I dare say the Japanese companies would still be relocating back to Japan anyway.
Well precisely.
Honda are continuing to invest in the UK where it makes sense, highly technical F1 jobs for instance. Car manufacturers in cleaner technologies, or premium vehicles are continuing to invest in the UK.
Lets not run around like headless chickens pandering to fearmongers and make our decisions based on what is rational.
I'm shocked and a little bit disturbed by the number of people saying things like "this has nothing to do with Brexit but it doesn't matter".
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
But it keeps happening. Remainers don't have to keep explaining away big inward investment stories.
Yet employment levels keep surging ever upwards.
And, will probably further show a further rise tomorrow, but the flip side of my comment to Sean T is that one business shedding 3,500 jobs will generate far more publicity than lots of businesses generating more jobs in aggregate.
You do realise that it won't just be 3,500 jobs. It will be all the jobs that support those jobs, the ancillary industries, the suppliers, the hauliers, right down to little corner shops in Swindon. The Honda plant was one of the biggest employers in the West Country.
It could take another 10,000 jobs with it.
Sean, it is time for you and other intelligent Leavers to reluctantly abandon your support for this project. It has been delivered unbelievably badly, and the optics going into Brexit day are terrible. Give it up.
Ferrari have indicated they'll be favouring Vettel, at least in the early races. Toto Wolff has described the comment, made pre-season, as a statement of intent.
Very disappointing and absolutely avoidable news on Honda. The blame lies with the idiot Liam Fox who should have been doing much more to get the Japanese on board for continuing the existing terms of trade for a few years and to Parliament who should have voted through the WA. Hopefully once we get a deal Honda can be convinced to reverse the decision.
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
I don't think is overblown. Honda are not a bunch of kids. One of Project Fear's biggest predictions has just come true.
As a Leaver I have to accept this. They were right.
There will now be intense pressure for the UK to stay in the SM as well as the CU.
Why? To make things easier for struggling companies that are already choosing to leave?
The irony is that if Honda is going there's less reason to come up with a Brexit that will keep them here. We can instead concentrate on a big picture what is best for Britain Brexit.
Good to see you have embraced Boris' view of and attitude to business.
I've not. I want to build a positive picture for what is best for business globally for the UK.
Not cling on to dead diesel zombies. Other posters talking about ensuring we are competitive for electric cars etc is infinitely more important for the UK's future than banging on about failing diesel models.
Sixteen out of the 21 Civic configs available are petrol, only 5 diesel, and Honda's plan is for two thirds of its Europe sales to be hybrid or fully electric by 2025. So what is your point?
And how many of those petrol, hybrid or electric configs were getting manufactured in Swindon and exported in volume to the continental EU?
Honda quitting Swindon is massive news. It's the absolute bedrock of the town. Mrs Capitano used to teach there - so many families were dependent on Honda in one way or another.
Looks like chances of a General Election just receded again.... and chances of No Brexit just surged.
Terrible news. We're really struggling now and years too come.
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
But it keeps happening. Remainers don't have to keep explaining away big inward investment stories.
Yet employment levels keep surging ever upwards.
And, will probably further show a further rise tomorrow, but the flip side of my comment to Sean T is that one business shedding 3,500 jobs will generate far more publicity than lots of businesses generating more jobs in aggregate.
You do realise that it won't just be 3,500 jobs. It will be all the jobs that support those jobs, the ancillary industries, the suppliers, the hauliers, right down to little corner shops in Swindon. The Honda plant was one of the biggest employers in the West Country.
It could take another 10,000 jobs with it.
And that is always the consequence of losing a big manfacturer. While brexit is not the driver in this decision in the publics eyes it may well be.
We need TM's deal passed fast and lift some of the doom
We do indeed. But, we should not expect a major boost to growth, as economic numbers are weak everywhere.
I don't think TMay's deal is enough now. It just means 2 more years, at least, of terrible uncertainty as we try and negotiate a FTA. We will be under the cosh throughout. And after all that, we will get a pretty dismal FTA at the end, because the EU will demand and we will have to yield.
As we can see, it is the uncertainty that surrounds Brexit that is the real killer, closing plants and delaying investment. What will another 2 years do?
I think a 2nd referendum has just returned as a major possibility.
By 10pm tomorrow you'll be singing a different tune
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
But it keeps happening. Remainers don't have to keep explaining away big inward investment stories.
Yet employment levels keep surging ever upwards.
And, will probably further show a further rise tomorrow, but the flip side of my comment to Sean T is that one business shedding 3,500 jobs will generate far more publicity than lots of businesses generating more jobs in aggregate.
You do realise that it won't just be 3,500 jobs. It will be all the jobs that support those jobs, the ancillary industries, the suppliers, the hauliers, right down to little corner shops in Swindon. The Honda plant was one of the biggest employers in the West Country.
It could take another 10,000 jobs with it.
And that is always the consequence of losing a big manfacturer. While brexit is not the driver in this decision in the publics eyes it may well be.
We need TM's deal passed fast and lift some of the doom
Why? When as you have said "Brexit is not the driver in this decision"?
Why pander to those who are trying to cause fear when it is not real. We need a deal if a deal is right for us, not because the optics of real life changes happen to look a particular way.
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
But it keeps happening. Remainers don't have to keep explaining away big inward investment stories.
Yet employment levels keep surging ever upwards.
And, will probably further show a further rise tomorrow, but the flip side of my comment to Sean T is that one business shedding 3,500 jobs will generate far more publicity than lots of businesses generating more jobs in aggregate.
You do realise that it won't just be 3,500 jobs. It will be all the jobs that support those jobs, the ancillary industries, the suppliers, the hauliers, right down to little corner shops in Swindon. The Honda plant was one of the biggest employers in the West Country.
It could take another 10,000 jobs with it.
And that is always the consequence of losing a big manfacturer. While brexit is not the driver in this decision in the publics eyes it may well be.
We need TM's deal passed fast and lift some of the doom
Why? When as you have said "Brexit is not the driver in this decision"?
Why pander to those who are trying to cause fear when it is not real. We need a deal if a deal is right for us, not because the optics of real life changes happen to look a particular way.
We need stability not chaos with no deal
Stability and chaos are both double-edged swords. Being sclerotic is a form of stability and it is not what we should seek.
On the other hand rapid technological and economic growth comes with it an amount of chaos.
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
But it keeps happening. Remainers don't have to keep explaining away big inward investment stories.
Yet employment levels keep surging ever upwards.
And, will probably further show a further rise tomorrow, but the flip side of my comment to Sean T is that one business shedding 3,500 jobs will generate far more publicity than lots of businesses generating more jobs in aggregate.
You do realise that it won't just be 3,500 jobs. It will be all the jobs that support those jobs, the ancillary industries, the suppliers, the hauliers, right down to little corner shops in Swindon. The Honda plant was one of the biggest employers in the West Country.
It could take another 10,000 jobs with it.
And that is always the consequence of losing a big manfacturer. While brexit is not the driver in this decision in the publics eyes it may well be.
We need TM's deal passed fast and lift some of the doom
We do indeed. But, we should not expect a major boost to growth, as economic numbers are weak everywhere.
I don't think TMay's deal is enough now. It just means 2 more years, at least, of terrible uncertainty as we try and negotiate a FTA. We will be under the cosh throughout. And after all that, we will get a pretty dismal FTA at the end, because the EU will demand and we will have to yield.
As we can see, it is the uncertainty that surrounds Brexit that is the real killer, closing plants and delaying investment. What will another 2 years do?
I think a 2nd referendum has just returned as a major possibility.
By 10pm tomorrow you'll be singing a different tune
Could we potentially strike a similiar FTA deal that the Japanese have done with the EU ? What were Japan's red lines etc..
We have far less economic clout than the EU. Again this was not difficult to foresee.
No, I meant from the Japanese perspective; us as Japan in this example.
Ah. Not sure of the details.
I think we could get there in the end, but the damage in the meantime would be wholy uneccessary and kill off the manufacturing eggs as we try to find new geese. Parliament now needs to pass one of
i) Corbyn's custom plan ii) May's original plan iii) A second ref.
I'd personally put them in that order, but they're all preferable to "No deal"
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
But it keeps happening. Remainers don't have to keep explaining away big inward investment stories.
Yet employment levels keep surging ever upwards.
And, will probably further show a further rise tomorrow, but the flip side of my comment to Sean T is that one business shedding 3,500 jobs will generate far more publicity than lots of businesses generating more jobs in aggregate.
You do realise that it won't just be 3,500 jobs. It will be all the jobs that support those jobs, the ancillary industries, the suppliers, the hauliers, right down to little corner shops in Swindon. The Honda plant was one of the biggest employers in the West Country.
It could take another 10,000 jobs with it.
Sean, it is time for you and other intelligent Leavers to reluctantly abandon your support for this project. It has been delivered unbelievably badly, and the optics going into Brexit day are terrible. Give it up.
I love the way the FBPE crowd are ignoring the fact the Honda CEO says it's nothing to do with Brexit, the fact no jobs are moving to the EU and the fact even after the vote they decided to keep their EU HQ in the UK. Unfortunately car manufacturing is an industry in severe decline, it's just a shame that those desperate for project fear to come true choose to grasp at any straw possible.
Confirmed by Honda . The threat of new tariffs as the UK leaves the EU was the final straw .
I posted that I could not understand the EU position in not locking in the trade deal early. This will also hurt their suppliers to Honda based on the continent as well. They have a cut of your nose to spite your face brexit strategy.
Does this Honda "confirmation" actually mention Brexit, or is it actually about the threat of new tariffs from the US / Trump? That would make more sense given the market for Swindon.
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
But it keeps happening. Remainers don't have to keep explaining away big inward investment stories.
Yet employment levels keep surging ever upwards.
And, will probably further show a further rise tomorrow, but the flip side of my comment to Sean T is that one business shedding 3,500 jobs will generate far more publicity than lots of businesses generating more jobs in aggregate.
You do realise that it won't just be 3,500 jobs. It will be all the jobs that support those jobs, the ancillary industries, the suppliers, the hauliers, right down to little corner shops in Swindon. The Honda plant was one of the biggest employers in the West Country.
It could take another 10,000 jobs with it.
And that is always the consequence of losing a big manfacturer. While brexit is not the driver in this decision in the publics eyes it may well be.
We need TM's deal passed fast and lift some of the doom
Why? When as you have said "Brexit is not the driver in this decision"?
Why pander to those who are trying to cause fear when it is not real. We need a deal if a deal is right for us, not because the optics of real life changes happen to look a particular way.
We need stability not chaos with no deal
Stability and chaos are both double-edged swords. Being sclerotic is a form of stability and it is not what we should seek.
On the other hand rapid technological and economic growth comes with it an amount of chaos.
LOL - now all leavers want to burn the house down in order to rebuild it anew.
Jesus fucking christ this was all on the side of the bus, was it?
Ferrari have indicated they'll be favouring Vettel, at least in the early races. Toto Wolff has described the comment, made pre-season, as a statement of intent.
Morris I watched the programme regarding Frank Williams on BBC 2 . I was not aware of the history.
Head on block time. I'd be very surprised if the Tiggers don't number in the teens at least within a fortnight
There are two Labour groups to watch: those who are very noisy (eg Ian Murray, Owen Smith), and those who are very quiet (eg Liz Kendall).
As for the Conservatives, presumably their move is a little later.
Yes, agreed. I think tipping point is the long term goal, say 50 from the PLP? That would signal the end days for labour. Tories probably waiting for Brexit settlement one way or another. Woolaston, Allen and Soubry I think, Ken Clarke but AFTER he leaves parliament
The Honda news is a potential game-changer. And I speak as a Leaver.
It has been timed with perfection. Deliberately?
We've seen this before. A company announcing they are pulling out of Brexit Britain only to see a few days later the story is way overblown. In a few days time we will realise this news has also been overblown.
I don't think is overblown. Honda are not a bunch of kids. One of Project Fear's biggest predictions has just come true.
As a Leaver I have to accept this. They were right.
There will now be intense pressure for the UK to stay in the SM as well as the CU.
Why? To make things easier for struggling companies that are already choosing to leave?
The irony is that if Honda is going there's less reason to come up with a Brexit that will keep them here. We can instead concentrate on a big picture what is best for Britain Brexit.
Good to see you have embraced Boris' view of and attitude to business.
I've not. I want to build a positive picture for what is best for business globally for the UK.
Not cling on to dead diesel zombies. Other posters talking about ensuring we are competitive for electric cars etc is infinitely more important for the UK's future than banging on about failing diesel models.
Sixteen out of the 21 Civic configs available are petrol, only 5 diesel, and Honda's plan is for two thirds of its Europe sales to be hybrid or fully electric by 2025. So what is your point?
And how many of those petrol, hybrid or electric configs were getting manufactured in Swindon and exported in volume to the continental EU?
Your claim was that Honda was a dead diesel zombie we should get rid of anyway. It isn't and we shouldn't.
You are really deep into "No American tanks in Baghdad" country.
How does this work? Haven't committees already been determined?
Committee places are allocated proportional to parliamentary strength, pro-data rounded up or down to balance with the sizes of committee. What will have happened is that Labour's allocation has dropped because I expect their fractional entitlement has now fallen below the SNP's, so the SNP get rounded up instead.
Confirmed by Honda . The threat of new tariffs as the UK leaves the EU was the final straw .
I posted that I could not understand the EU position in not locking in the trade deal early. This will also hurt their suppliers to Honda based on the continent as well. They have a cut of your nose to spite your face brexit strategy.
Does this Honda "confirmation" actually mention Brexit, or is it actually about the threat of new tariffs from the US / Trump? That would make more sense given the market for Swindon.
Welcome to PB. I wonder how much the new EU-Japan trade deal had to do with it. I think they can now export from Japan tariff free.
Swindon MP: "Honda decision nothing to do with Brexit, since all European production will be moving to Japan by 2021".
If that is correct, how many plants does Honda have across Europe?
only other plant is in Turkey, this plant makes Civics for continental EU. The Civics made in the UK were for RoW with Japan and USA being the main markets.
Are you saying that the Civics made here were not for the EU market?
Yep - right hand drive and US models...
So - does that not rather blow a hole in the "it's because of Brexit" theory?
So getting an economic trade deal with the USA and avoiding pending US tariffs on EU exports would help the Civic more than a deal with the EU?
Seems like an argument in favour of exiting without tying ourselves into a permanent customs union or backstop.
This economic trade deal with the USA of which you speak, an actual thing or a just possibly if Liam Fox doesn't fuck up and the unicorns don't have equine flu thing?
Comments
We need to concentrate our efforts on what works. Practical reality-based and evidence-based policies. Not pandering to fearmongers and paranoia.
Where we are competitive, where industry is competitive, we are growing well. The answer is not to turn inwards into sclerotic Europe and try and pander to dying diesel lines.
Over the past decade, there has been a significant shift in patterns of consumer behaviour in relation to purchasing of new cars. UK private car registrations were 39% higher in 2016 than they were in 2011, a trend which has in part been driven by the expansion of the Personal Contract Purchase (PCP) deals. Some 82% of private new car purchases was financed in this way in 2016. PCPs contribution to the rise in unsecured borrowing is firmly on the radar of both the Bank of England (BoE) and Financial Conduct Authority (FCA).
https://www.4-most.co.uk/insights/2017/6/29/has-the-expansion-of-car-finance-overstretched-borrowers
Don't be misled my the German national anthem playing for Mercedes when they win a race, the car is 100% British and made by over 1,500 people at Brackley and Brixworth.
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1042393177389506560
Membership of the EU and an FTA with the EU are not the same things.
I have to say the reaction of Leavers (with the admirable exception of @SeanT ) to the Honda news is depressingly mindboggling.
They are arm waving away a critical decision by a major UK-based manufacturer to leave the UK as though it was irrelevant and we were better off without them.
Brexit was supposed to allow the UK to strike trade deals, increase inward investment, and generally free us to be an economic industrial and services powerhouse. And yet we have had example after example of precisely the opposite of this: excluded from trade deals, and cancelled investment.
Further, they miss the transparently obvious fact that whether directly related to Brexit or not, Brexit is not helping; it does not contribute to a more benign economic environment.
Such thinking really does betray the most extraordinary, warped, small-minded, insular, Little Englander, pig ignorant mindset.
Idly checked the next GE market, and Ladbrokes offer only 21 on Any Other Party getting most seats. Tight.
While I will cover that later to scare people here is a website that generates completely fake faces ready to add to the computer generated fake life story and the computer generated stories https://thispersondoesnotexist.com/
Course they are. So WTF do we need a 'new' actor in that space?
(I assume he's speaking from his own elected position, rather than with an olive branch as the acceptable face of the collective leadership).
They have a cut of your nose to spite your face brexit strategy.
The reality is completely different to the fear. I believe it is appropriate to act based on evidence, logic and reason and not pandering to fear and paranoia.
We need TM's deal passed fast and lift some of the doom
When the other announcement was made some weeks ago, the BBC focus was entirely on us leaving the EU, and I don't think they mentioned the EU-Japanese trade deal once. Shoddy reporting.
Apparently Toto Wolff has some biting comments on the UK/EU situation, to come fairly soon.
Edited extra bit: for those unaware, Wolff is one of the chaps running Mercedes' F1 team.
Why pander to those who are trying to cause fear when it is not real. We need a deal if a deal is right for us, not because the optics of real life changes happen to look a particular way.
https://twitter.com/angelasmithmp/status/1097518807357288448
EDIT: just seen @bigjohnowls's post - ok, extraordinary...
Honda are continuing to invest in the UK where it makes sense, highly technical F1 jobs for instance. Car manufacturers in cleaner technologies, or premium vehicles are continuing to invest in the UK.
Lets not run around like headless chickens pandering to fearmongers and make our decisions based on what is rational.
I'm shocked and a little bit disturbed by the number of people saying things like "this has nothing to do with Brexit but it doesn't matter".
No Deal Brexit trundles on down the mountain, unimpeded.
Ferrari have indicated they'll be favouring Vettel, at least in the early races. Toto Wolff has described the comment, made pre-season, as a statement of intent.
https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1097517668238802944
On the other hand rapid technological and economic growth comes with it an amount of chaos.
As for the Conservatives, presumably their move is a little later.
https://www.ineos.com/news/ineos-group/letter-to-the-european-commission-president-jean-claude-juncker/
When you make manufacturing too costly, their is only going to be one result for price sensitive areas.
Seems like an argument in favour of exiting without tying ourselves into a permanent customs union or backstop.
Parliament now needs to pass one of
i) Corbyn's custom plan
ii) May's original plan
iii) A second ref.
I'd personally put them in that order, but they're all preferable to "No deal"
Jesus fucking christ this was all on the side of the bus, was it?
I was not aware of the history.
Mr. Alistair, ah. Probably should've checked that, but thank you for the information nevertheless.
https://www.constructionproducts.org.uk/news-media-events/blog/2017/june/a-comparison-of-electricity-prices-between-the-uk-and-eu/
You are really deep into "No American tanks in Baghdad" country.
I'm into chess these days, playing lots of tournaments but new political toys are exciting
Bounce!!