Well, IMO whoever wins is in for an utterly brutal time. Won't last five years.
Yes, I think the party will be gunning for May as soon as Brexit is done. Lots of unhappy people with the leftist crap on energy price caps and the racial pay charter.
But what's the difference between May's energy cap and Cameron's 2015 rail fares cap ?
ROCs receive subsidies from the taxpayers and energy companies don't?
You mean TOCs. And actually that's not the issue. The issue is that for some rail users (like me, but perhaps not you, but I'm not sure) there is no choice but to commute to work by train.
Yah, ROCs is a work acronym that auto-correct changed.
Yes, it is is either use the train to get to Manchester or stay in Manchester overnight.
Driving over Woodhead or Snake Pass on a daily basis isn't really an option for me
Love the Snake Pass, when it's open,
If only there was an electrified mainline between Manchester and Sheffield....
Still May by a mile. But it will be a phyrric victory.
A win is a win. But the next five years are going to be very, very hard for May. And if Labour learns the right lesson from this campaign, it will be in serious contention in 2022. Big if, though.
If Labour lose seats it's, historically, two elections to get back. If they don't lose seats, there will be no change in leadership. And so on...
Hadn't seen that one before? He's a card, that John McDonnell. Despite being more impressive in many ways than Corbyn, he seems on a personal level much nastier.
He also needs help with that undiagnosed specific blindness that means he cannot spot giant communist and Stalin flags at, of all places, a trade union may day rally.
Well, IMO whoever wins is in for an utterly brutal time. Won't last five years.
Yes, I think the party will be gunning for May as soon as Brexit is done. Lots of unhappy people with the leftist crap on energy price caps and the racial pay charter.
But what's the difference between May's energy cap and Cameron's 2015 rail fares cap ?
ROCs receive subsidies from the taxpayers and energy companies don't?
You mean TOCs. And actually that's not the issue. The issue is that for some rail users (like me, but perhaps not you, but I'm not sure) there is no choice but to commute to work by train.
Yah, ROCs is a work acronym that auto-correct changed.
Yes, it is is either use the train to get to Manchester or stay in Manchester overnight.
Driving over Woodhead or Snake Pass on a daily basis isn't really an option for me
Well, IMO whoever wins is in for an utterly brutal time. Won't last five years.
Yes, I think the party will be gunning for May as soon as Brexit is done. Lots of unhappy people with the leftist crap on energy price caps and the racial pay charter.
But what's the difference between May's energy cap and Cameron's 2015 rail fares cap ?
ROCs receive subsidies from the taxpayers and energy companies don't?
You mean TOCs. And actually that's not the issue. The issue is that for some rail users (like me, but perhaps not you, but I'm not sure) there is no choice but to commute to work by train.
Yah, ROCs is a work acronym that auto-correct changed.
Yes, it is is either use the train to get to Manchester or stay in Manchester overnight.
Driving over Woodhead or Snake Pass on a daily basis isn't really an option for me
The alt-right could do a lot with the "wonderful faith of Islam" Corbyn quote. But I'm not sure the alt-right, Putin and Assange want May to win. Assange hasn't done much to help her yet, despite wanting to get to the airport safely.
She might have lost the election tonight. She's really really not very good.
I wish she was. But she ain't.
Do you really think elections i.e. seats are won or lost by stuff like this on TV? As long as they don't make a massive gaffe I don't think it changes a single vote. All this crap about wobbles are advanced by the media to make a story. The actual ground war where seats are lost and won is a different proposition. You can win the election in terms of seats convincingly yet not do that well in the media. I don't think when people hear Corbyn talk about spending significantly more money without a viable plan to raise revenue, they believe him. May is such a clear front runner that it is the only hope of the media to try and winkle out some area where she does not have such a solid lead. Every election campaign runs on similar narratives the only difference is Labour and the Tories switch sides in the narrative depending on who is starting out on top and likely to win. The media will talk about a last minute surge to the Tories next week or late swing. I don't believe this actually happens rather it is a convenient term used to explain how opinion polls have been adjusted throughout an election campaign to make a story.
Very convincing point. I'll never forget a moment during the 1987, when I was a Labour member in Jeremy Corbyn's constituency and I was out one evening canvassing in my ward. Suddenly, one of my fellow activists came running up to me and said in his excitement, "Did you see the BBC news? There''s a brilliant poll in the marginals that shows us neck and neck with the Tories. We might actually do this." I couldn't believe it. The dream of a Kinnock Government appeared a real possibility, even though it did not seem to match the mood I was picking up on the streets. And, of course, it was all nonsense. The Conservatives' lead was exactly the same at the end as at the campaign's start.
Still May by a mile. But it will be a phyrric victory.
A win is a win. But the next five years are going to be very, very hard for May. And if Labour learns the right lesson from this campaign, it will be in serious contention in 2022. Big if, though.
Whatever happens in this campaign Corbyn has probably done enough in terms of increasing Labour's voteshare that he will likely lead Labour into the 2022 general election campaign too, even if May increases her majority
I think there was a language issue at the end; I think she thought she'd made it clear that she would walk away but like most politicians she is programmed not to answer 'yes' or 'no'.
Again, that's the whole point.
She made the slogan clear, but when asked to confirm she would take no deal, she refused.
That wasn't the impression I got. The impression I got was that she couldn't understand why Paxman was repeating the question when she thought she'd already answered it.
Still May by a mile. But it will be a phyrric victory.
A win is a win. But the next five years are going to be very, very hard for May. And if Labour learns the right lesson from this campaign, it will be in serious contention in 2022. Big if, though.
It is why it needs to not be a landslide. May and her back benchers need to fear the next election.
Currently I am sticking to my 76 majority opinion.
Fox jr has just filled in his postal vote for the LD though.
That McDonnell stuff on knee-capping is just poison.
Every time I despair of TMay (about every five minutes) and start to think Hmm, maybe Labour would be OK, I am reminded that the Corbyn leadership team is actively evil.
Not inept, or misguided, or silly, or overly naive, but actively nasty, cruel, dangerous and treasonable. UGH.
The McDonnell video is probably still in the works....
I am a Conservative supporter. I am biased. But I genuinely don't think Mrs May did badly in the interview. But Paxman didn't let her (nor Corbyn) speak initially, but she didn't make any big errors. Would I have given her a standing ovation as one in the audience did? No. She doesn't have rousing soundbites. Could she think faster on her feet? Probably. But I guess most of us could when nervous. The public know she is knowledgeable (good use of stats), dependable and completely serious in comparison to Mr Corbyn. She has also got years of experience in government and that is invaluable in these Brexit times. I would also hazard a guess she is far closer to the public's political compass than Mr Corbyn is too.
She had one job for 6 years get immigration down
"Yes I know I failed"
Will it be up under a corbyn labour government especially asylum ?
Hadn't seen that one before? He's a card, that John McDonnell. Despite being more impressive in many ways than Corbyn, he seems on a personal level much nastier.
He seems more plausible in an interview, more polished. But a deeply unpleasant human being.
Anyhoo, TMay was rubbish there, but will still win easily.
Jez will never win over the marginals and Lab need to win by over 10% in England to compensate for the lack of seats in Scotland.
Well, IMO whoever wins is in for an utterly brutal time. Won't last five years.
Yes, I think the party will be gunning for May as soon as Brexit is done. Lots of unhappy people with the leftist crap on energy price caps and the racial pay charter.
But what's the difference between May's energy cap and Cameron's 2015 rail fares cap ?
ROCs receive subsidies from the taxpayers and energy companies don't?
You mean TOCs. And actually that's not the issue. The issue is that for some rail users (like me, but perhaps not you, but I'm not sure) there is no choice but to commute to work by train.
Yah, ROCs is a work acronym that auto-correct changed.
Yes, it is is either use the train to get to Manchester or stay in Manchester overnight.
Driving over Woodhead or Snake Pass on a daily basis isn't really an option for me
Love the Snake Pass, when it's open,
If only there was an electrified mainline between Manchester and Sheffield....
Tell me about it, so long as it stops at Dore & Totley
Hadn't seen that one before? He's a card, that John McDonnell. Despite being more impressive in many ways than Corbyn, he seems on a personal level much nastier.
He also needs help with that undiagnosed specific blindness that means he cannot spot giant communist and Stalin flags at, of all places, a trade union may day rally.
There's a great quote from a senior SF politician - was it Adams or McGuiness, can't remember - basically asking Tony Blair to keep John McDOnnell quiet long enough to get the GFA signed.
A patriotic Labour leader running on that same manifesto could easily win.
But not Corbyn.
GE2022 should be Labour's to lose, provided they elect someone like Ed Balls as leader.
Ed Balls is not a patriotic version of Jeremy Corbyn. I know he's become a bit of a TV personality but politically he's still pretty much seen as an establishment man, Gordon Brown's batman and very thick with the city.
I am a Conservative supporter. I am biased. But I genuinely don't think Mrs May did badly in the interview. But Paxman didn't let her (nor Corbyn) speak initially, but she didn't make any big errors. Would I have given her a standing ovation as one in the audience did? No. She doesn't have rousing soundbites. Could she think faster on her feet? Probably. But I guess most of us could when nervous. The public know she is knowledgeable (good use of stats), dependable and completely serious in comparison to Mr Corbyn. She has also got years of experience in government and that is invaluable in these Brexit times. I would also hazard a guess she is far closer to the public's political compass than Mr Corbyn is too.
She had one job for 6 years get immigration down
"Yes I know I failed"
Will it be up under a corbyn labour government especially asylum ?
He said probably down, but we will never know.
More likely to have asylum seekers fleeing these shores though!
That McDonnell stuff on knee-capping is just poison.
Every time I despair of TMay (about every five minutes) and start to think Hmm, maybe Labour would be OK, I am reminded that the Corbyn leadership team is actively evil.
Not inept, or misguided, or silly, or overly naive, but actively nasty, cruel, dangerous and treasonable. UGH.
That McDonnell stuff on knee-capping is just poison.
Every time I despair of TMay (about every five minutes) and start to think Hmm, maybe Labour would be OK, I am reminded that the Corbyn leadership team is actively evil.
Not inept, or misguided, or silly, or overly naive, but actively nasty, cruel, dangerous and treasonable. UGH.
A patriotic Labour leader running on that same manifesto could easily win.
But not Corbyn.
GE2022 should be Labour's to lose, provided they elect someone like Ed Balls as leader.
Ed Balls is not a patriotic version of Jeremy Corbyn. I know he's become a bit of a TV personality but politically he's still pretty much seen as an establishment man, Gordon Brown's batman and very thick with the city.
Ed Balls would neither inspire leftwingers like Corbyn nor win swing voters like Blair, he is just a slightly more likeable version of Brown
"John has no recollection of making these remarks. This quote is clearly taken out of context"
lol
What?! That sounds more like his spokesperson was debating which two lines of dismissal to use, then accidentally used both even though they are contradictory.
Hadn't seen that one before? He's a card, that John McDonnell. Despite being more impressive in many ways than Corbyn, he seems on a personal level much nastier.
He also needs help with that undiagnosed specific blindness that means he cannot spot giant communist and Stalin flags at, of all places, a trade union may day rally.
Still May by a mile. But it will be a phyrric victory.
A win is a win. But the next five years are going to be very, very hard for May. And if Labour learns the right lesson from this campaign, it will be in serious contention in 2022. Big if, though.
If Labour lose seats it's, historically, two elections to get back. If they don't lose seats, there will be no change in leadership. And so on...
All sides in Labour need to reflect. Moderates must accept a left-wing message can be sold; the left has to accept it can only be effectively sold by someone without the kind of baggage Corbyn has.
That McDonnell stuff on knee-capping is just poison.
Every time I despair of TMay (about every five minutes) and start to think Hmm, maybe Labour would be OK, I am reminded that the Corbyn leadership team is actively evil.
Not inept, or misguided, or silly, or overly naive, but actively nasty, cruel, dangerous and treasonable. UGH.
Yep - this is the lesson Labour needs to learn.
Think what they could do, on this manifesto, against May, with leaders with less baggage.
Because however much some will ignore the baggage, and however many will be enthused by the manifesto and the leaders, there are still a lot of voters left who will be upset by the baggage who cannot be reached, who could have been by those without it.
A patriotic Labour leader running on that same manifesto could easily win.
But not Corbyn.
GE2022 should be Labour's to lose, provided they elect someone like Ed Balls as leader.
Ed Balls is not a patriotic version of Jeremy Corbyn. I know he's become a bit of a TV personality but politically he's still pretty much seen as an establishment man, Gordon Brown's batman and very thick with the city.
He was instrumental in keeping us out of the euro, and was the first out of the blocks saying Labour had to reconnect with the WWC and deal with free movement.
He knows enough about numbers to be credible on the economy too, and he's shaken off the worst traits that he absorbed during the Brown years.
She might have lost the election tonight. She's really really not very good.
I wish she was. But she ain't.
Do you really think elections i.e. seats are won or lost by stuff like this on TV? As long as they don't make a massive gaffe I don't think it changes a single vote. All this crap about wobbles are advanced by the media to make a story. The actual ground war where seats are lost and won is a different proposition. You can win the election in terms of seats convincingly yet not do that well in the media. I don't think when people hear Corbyn talk about spending significantly more money without a viable plan to raise revenue, they believe him. May is such a clear front runner that it is the only hope of the media to try and winkle out some area where she does not have such a solid lead. Every election campaign runs on similar narratives the only difference is Labour and the Tories switch sides in the narrative depending on who is starting out on top and likely to win. The media will talk about a last minute surge to the Tories next week or late swing. I don't believe this actually happens rather it is a convenient term used to explain how opinion polls have been adjusted throughout an election campaign to make a story.
Very convincing point. I'll never forget a moment during the 1987, when I was a Labour member in Jeremy Corbyn's constituency and I was out one evening canvassing in my ward. Suddenly, one of my fellow activists came running up to me and said in his excitement, "Did you see the BBC news? There''s a brilliant poll in the marginals that shows us neck and neck with the Tories. We might actually do this." I couldn't believe it. The dream of a Kinnock Government appeared a real possibility, even though it did not seem to match the mood I was picking up on the streets. And, of course, it was all nonsense. The Conservatives' lead was exactly the same at the end as at the campaign's start.
Kinnock at one stage cut Thatcher's lead to 4 points, even less than the 5 points yougov had Corbyn cutting May's lead to last weekend, in the end Thatcher won by 12 points and had a majority of 102
The sepia lens of nostalgia always distorts historical reality. I was surprised recently, when watching some old editions of PMQ on You Tube, to see how awkward Mrs Thatcher sometimes was, while Kinnock could actually be quite sharp. As a TV performer, Churchill would have been hopeless as he was not actually a natural, easy speaker; in every major public performance he relied heavily on a verbatim, endlessly rehearsed text.
No one under the age of 45 remembers the Falklands. In fact, the IRA question is more relevant as it was here.
I'm younger than 45 and don't actually remember the Falklands from the time, but I can remember being interested in it from about 1990 onwards. The same must be true for a lot of younger people.
You were ten at the time.
Was John Craven not part of your childhood?
I was 2 at the time of the Falklands. Started taking an interest in it when I was about 10. I remember John Craven because he was still on Newsround until the early 90s IIRC.
Well, IMO whoever wins is in for an utterly brutal time. Won't last five years.
Yes, I think the party will be gunning for May as soon as Brexit is done. Lots of unhappy people with the leftist crap on energy price caps and the racial pay charter.
But what's the difference between May's energy cap and Cameron's 2015 rail fares cap ?
ROCs receive subsidies from the taxpayers and energy companies don't?
You mean TOCs. And actually that's not the issue. The issue is that for some rail users (like me, but perhaps not you, but I'm not sure) there is no choice but to commute to work by train.
Yah, ROCs is a work acronym that auto-correct changed.
Yes, it is is either use the train to get to Manchester or stay in Manchester overnight.
Driving over Woodhead or Snake Pass on a daily basis isn't really an option for me
Love the Snake Pass, when it's open,
If only there was an electrified mainline between Manchester and Sheffield....
Tell me about it, so long as it stops at Dore & Totley
I was referring to the Woodhead Line so scandalously closed in 1981:
Joe Rich has spun it. McDonnell is supposed to have been quoted in the Deptford and Peckham Mercury as "joking" that Labour councillors who stayed away from a meeting held by a Labour group on Ireland in 1986 which was attended by a Sinn Fein councillor were "gutless wimps" and that "kneecapping might help change their mind". If true he was a complete fuckwit, there's no doubt about that.
It's the worst CON campaign of all time! We should have focused on proper policies such as stopping all 'tax credits' which are really handouts to underachieving people to encourage them to produce children and also a radical tax cutting agenda ie allowing people to keep their money ie wot they have worked for.
Still May by a mile. But it will be a phyrric victory.
A win is a win. But the next five years are going to be very, very hard for May. And if Labour learns the right lesson from this campaign, it will be in serious contention in 2022. Big if, though.
It is why it needs to not be a landslide. May and her back benchers need to fear the next election.
Currently I am sticking to my 76 majority opinion.
Fox jr has just filled in his postal vote for the LD though.
I thought the jr foxes were Corbynistas?
76 Majority sounds pretty good - comfortable majority for ease of governance, but not out of sight, cannot push the backbenchers too far, and if things go tits up then Labour could overhaul it with a good performance next time.
A patriotic Labour leader running on that same manifesto could easily win.
But not Corbyn.
GE2022 should be Labour's to lose, provided they elect someone like Ed Balls as leader.
Ed Balls is not a patriotic version of Jeremy Corbyn. I know he's become a bit of a TV personality but politically he's still pretty much seen as an establishment man, Gordon Brown's batman and very thick with the city.
He was instrumental in keeping us out of the euro, and was the first out of the blocks saying Labour had to reconnect with the WWC and deal with free movement.
He knows enough about numbers to be credible on the economy too, and he's shaken off the worst traits that he absorbed during the Brown years.
I would be very afraid of him.
I wouldn't, he would not enthuse any of the Corbynistas and Middle England would not be enthused by him either
Well, IMO whoever wins is in for an utterly brutal time. Won't last five years.
Yes, I think the party will be gunning for May as soon as Brexit is done. Lots of unhappy people with the leftist crap on energy price caps and the racial pay charter.
But what's the difference between May's energy cap and Cameron's 2015 rail fares cap ?
ROCs receive subsidies from the taxpayers and energy companies don't?
You mean TOCs. And actually that's not the issue. The issue is that for some rail users (like me, but perhaps not you, but I'm not sure) there is no choice but to commute to work by train.
Yah, ROCs is a work acronym that auto-correct changed.
Yes, it is is either use the train to get to Manchester or stay in Manchester overnight.
Driving over Woodhead or Snake Pass on a daily basis isn't really an option for me
Love the Snake Pass, when it's open,
If only there was an electrified mainline between Manchester and Sheffield....
Tell me about it, so long as it stops at Dore & Totley
I was referring to the Woodhead Line so scandalously closed in 1981:
It keeps coming back to Corbyn's past. In a normal election, any one of his past deeds or utterances would probably be fatal. Yet, here we are, 10 days before the election, and Labour are apparently polling as high as 38%. I just can't get my head around it.
I am a Conservative supporter. I am biased. But I genuinely don't think Mrs May did badly in the interview. But Paxman didn't let her (nor Corbyn) speak initially, but she didn't make any big errors. Would I have given her a standing ovation as one in the audience did? No. She doesn't have rousing soundbites. Could she think faster on her feet? Probably. But I guess most of us could when nervous. The public know she is knowledgeable (good use of stats), dependable and completely serious in comparison to Mr Corbyn. She has also got years of experience in government and that is invaluable in these Brexit times. I would also hazard a guess she is far closer to the public's political compass than Mr Corbyn is too.
She had one job for 6 years get immigration down
"Yes I know I failed"
Will it be up under a corbyn labour government especially asylum ?
He said probably down, but we will never know.
More likely to have asylum seekers fleeing these shores though!
With the people that surround corbyn,the ayslum numbers WILL hit a all time high.
I know someone who worked for the CCHQ at the last election, he said shows like this are what you can clip and use against your opponents in attack ads.
In 2015 it was Ed Miliband saying the last Labour government hadn't overspent
In 2017 it will be Corbyn's response/quote about The Falklands War/Tory plot.
"And Fatah" brought up by Jez himself.
I think his comment made at the time (he surely did not repeat it did he) about 'tory plot' shows he is as unhinged as the people he encourages to support him. Equally it show how his dimness allows him to be exploited by people like McDonnell who is surely the slimiest person in British politics
Hadn't seen that one before? He's a card, that John McDonnell. Despite being more impressive in many ways than Corbyn, he seems on a personal level much nastier.
He also needs help with that undiagnosed specific blindness that means he cannot spot giant communist and Stalin flags at, of all places, a trade union may day rally.
It's the worst CON campaign of all time! We should have focused on proper policies such as stopping all 'tax credits' which are really handouts to underachieving people to encourage them to produce children and also a radical tax cutting agenda ie allowing people to keep their money ie wot they have worked for.
But its still not Corbyn Abbot or McDonnell!
So it's 45 - 35 min and 40 maj!!!
Then when we do win we can make Amber PM!!!!
Amber Rudd should be moved from Home Secretary, she should certainly not be considered a future leader
It certainly puts Ed Miliband in perspective. I might have thought some of his policies a bit crap, but morally he is on a different plane to the current Labour leadership.
The fight on school milk between Thatcher and the audience member at 13:06 to 16:17 is very interesting.
I wonder how that would "trend" in the modern age.
Thanks for highlighting that. Fascinating. More interesting watching this 40 year old clip than the current guff on C4 and Sky this evening.
Quite so. Far more illuminating and substantial.
Today's 24 hour media cycle, and social media , desperate for soundbites, attack lines and pithy quotes, probably influences how debates have hollowed out as much as anything else.
A patriotic Labour leader running on that same manifesto could easily win.
But not Corbyn.
GE2022 should be Labour's to lose, provided they elect someone like Ed Balls as leader.
Ed Balls is not a patriotic version of Jeremy Corbyn. I know he's become a bit of a TV personality but politically he's still pretty much seen as an establishment man, Gordon Brown's batman and very thick with the city.
He was instrumental in keeping us out of the euro, and was the first out of the blocks saying Labour had to reconnect with the WWC and deal with free movement.
He knows enough about numbers to be credible on the economy too, and he's shaken off the worst traits that he absorbed during the Brown years.
I would be very afraid of him.
As a politician he was a revolting s**t yet as an ordinary guy he seems quite decent. I don't think being in politics was doing him any favours.
It's the worst CON campaign of all time! We should have focused on proper policies such as stopping all 'tax credits' which are really handouts to underachieving people to encourage them to produce children and also a radical tax cutting agenda ie allowing people to keep their money ie wot they have worked for.
Joe Rich has spun it. McDonnell is supposed to have been quoted in the Deptford and Peckham Mercury as "joking" that Labour councillors who stayed away from a meeting held by a Labour group on Ireland in 1986 which was attended by a Sinn Fein councillor were "gutless wimps" and that "kneecapping might help change their mind". If true he was a complete fuckwit, there's no doubt about that.
Well, no crime in making horrible jokes, I've made more offensive ones, although that context makes it worse than if it were just quoted from the aether, frankly.
Still May by a mile. But it will be a phyrric victory.
Depends, if it's still 100+ I don't think there will be many that are dissapointed.
It will be amusing. I for one will have to eat my words, but it will be a strange experience for her detractors if she has what many Tories consider to be a crap campaign and showed herself poorly, and she ends up winning a landslide anyway.
It's the worst CON campaign of all time! We should have focused on proper policies such as stopping all 'tax credits' which are really handouts to underachieving people to encourage them to produce children and also a radical tax cutting agenda ie allowing people to keep their money ie wot they have worked for.
But its still not Corbyn Abbot or McDonnell!
So it's 45 - 35 min and 40 maj!!!
Then when we do win we can make Amber PM!!!!
Con will win - just - like Watford stayed up !
Surbiton - more comfortable than Watford - more like Everton!
"SeanT That McDonnell stuff on knee-capping is just poison.
Every time I despair of TMay (about every five minutes) and start to think Hmm, maybe Labour would be OK, I am reminded that the Corbyn leadership team is actively evil.
Not inept, or misguided, or silly, or overly naive, but actively nasty, cruel, dangerous and treasonable. UGH."
Quite. How Labour supporting posters on here are living with this passes my comprehension (especially those who will, without apparent irony, talk of the Nasty Party)
It's the worst CON campaign of all time! We should have focused on proper policies such as stopping all 'tax credits' which are really handouts to underachieving people to encourage them to produce children and also a radical tax cutting agenda ie allowing people to keep their money ie wot they have worked for.
Still May by a mile. But it will be a phyrric victory.
A win is a win. But the next five years are going to be very, very hard for May. And if Labour learns the right lesson from this campaign, it will be in serious contention in 2022. Big if, though.
If Labour lose seats it's, historically, two elections to get back. If they don't lose seats, there will be no change in leadership. And so on...
All sides in Labour need to reflect. Moderates must accept a left-wing message can be sold; the left has to accept it can only be effectively sold by someone without the kind of baggage Corbyn has.
Well put. And Labour also needs to compete with the Tories on the behind-the-scenes campaigning. (Facebook ads, targeted phone canvassing etc.) Labour has the manpower and money to do this, it's just taking them a while to catch up.
The sepia lens of nostalgia always distorts historical reality. I was surprised recently, when watching some old editions of PMQ on You Tube, to see how awkward Mrs Thatcher sometimes was, while Kinnock could actually be quite sharp.
Kinnock was a good public speaker, calling him the "Welsh windbag" was about knocking one of his best traits.
If May wins the election I'll think "oh well..." If Corbyn wins the election I'll think "oh hell!"
Corbyn was the stronger peformer tonight but I don't think May was all that bad either. I'm voting Lib Dem anyway so my vote wasn't up for grabs tonight.
Then your judgement may well be sounder than many others on here! Since it not only wasn't up for grabs, but you aren't backing either of the two on display.
Well, IMO whoever wins is in for an utterly brutal time. Won't last five years.
Yes, I think the party will be gunning for May as soon as Brexit is done. Lots of unhappy people with the leftist crap on energy price caps and the racial pay charter.
But what's the difference between May's energy cap and Cameron's 2015 rail fares cap ?
ROCs receive subsidies from the taxpayers and energy companies don't?
You mean TOCs. And actually that's not the issue. The issue is that for some rail users (like me, but perhaps not you, but I'm not sure) there is no choice but to commute to work by train.
Indeed, it's why I think railways (along with water) could probably be nationalised without anyone really noticing.
They'd notice when the strikes started getting a hell of a lot worse, though.
Corbyn finished in the bunker on security; May finished with a flourish on Brexit.
Corbyn 5/10, May 6/10
That would be my score too. Although it's events like this when I do miss Dave!
Agree too.
Dave wasn't particularly good against Paxman, and avoided debates like the plague.
Thatcher? No problem.
Thatcher relished a good argument; it's a very notable difference between her and TMay.
Thatchers training was in science and at the Bar, so she was good at forensics and argument.
May's was more in administration, and in local government, with her political activity preferred as 1:1 doorstep campaigning, so she is better behind the desk than in combative debate.
It's the worst CON campaign of all time! We should have focused on proper policies such as stopping all 'tax credits' which are really handouts to underachieving people to encourage them to produce children and also a radical tax cutting agenda ie allowing people to keep their money ie wot they have worked for.
But its still not Corbyn Abbot or McDonnell!
So it's 45 - 35 min and 40 maj!!!
Then when we do win we can make Amber PM!!!!
If Con get 45% the majority will be a lot bigger than 40?
Has anyone considered the possibility that the polls may be misleading simply because the issues concentrated in the campaign as it has gone do not correlate with the issues upon which large numbers of people will vote? When the campaign started the main reason why Conservatives seemed to be on for a landslide was simple. Voters (including many remainers) bought into the basic line that May needed an increased majority in order to deliver Brexit (or in the remainers case, a tolerable Brexit). Since then the campaign has barely focussed on it as the noise generated by other issues has crowded it out. But that may be all it is - noise. If large numbers of people still buy into the basic reason why we this election was called then that is how they will vote.
As an aside i've always suspected that a problem with political polling, especially YouGov type panels where the same people get polled repeatedly, is that people use the voting intention as a proxy for expressing an opinion on the day's/week's events - to the extent that they reflect on the performance of the parties. And therefore modify their voting intention (be it by switching party or changing their certainty to vote) whilst never actually changing their ultimate preference.
A patriotic Labour leader running on that same manifesto could easily win.
But not Corbyn.
GE2022 should be Labour's to lose, provided they elect someone like Ed Balls as leader.
Ed Balls is not a patriotic version of Jeremy Corbyn. I know he's become a bit of a TV personality but politically he's still pretty much seen as an establishment man, Gordon Brown's batman and very thick with the city.
He was instrumental in keeping us out of the euro, and was the first out of the blocks saying Labour had to reconnect with the WWC and deal with free movement.
He knows enough about numbers to be credible on the economy too, and he's shaken off the worst traits that he absorbed during the Brown years.
I would be very afraid of him.
Ed Balls as Labour leader would be easy to beat.
All the Conservatives would need to do would be to make Andrea Jenkyns their leader.
Still May by a mile. But it will be a phyrric victory.
A win is a win. But the next five years are going to be very, very hard for May. And if Labour learns the right lesson from this campaign, it will be in serious contention in 2022. Big if, though.
If Labour lose seats it's, historically, two elections to get back. If they don't lose seats, there will be no change in leadership. And so on...
All sides in Labour need to reflect. Moderates must accept a left-wing message can be sold; the left has to accept it can only be effectively sold by someone without the kind of baggage Corbyn has.
The moderates should have an easier time accepting that point if, as now seems expected, Corbyn gets 30+, possibly closer to 35 but we shall see (and I expect freakouts in the next few days as some polls show Labour closer than 5).
Now, which MP might be acceptable to the Corbynistas and the moderates who accept left-wing options are popular again?
Well, IMO whoever wins is in for an utterly brutal time. Won't last five years.
Yes, I think the party will be gunning for May as soon as Brexit is done. Lots of unhappy people with the leftist crap on energy price caps and the racial pay charter.
But what's the difference between May's energy cap and Cameron's 2015 rail fares cap ?
ROCs receive subsidies from the taxpayers and energy companies don't?
You mean TOCs. And actually that's not the issue. The issue is that for some rail users (like me, but perhaps not you, but I'm not sure) there is no choice but to commute to work by train.
Indeed, it's why I think railways (along with water) could probably be nationalised without anyone really noticing.
They'd notice when the strikes started getting a hell of a lot worse, though.
Effectively the proposition is for government to own the TOCs. Which is fine, but self-defeating; there is nothing that the state-run TOC can do that the private one can't.
It's the worst CON campaign of all time! We should have focused on proper policies such as stopping all 'tax credits' which are really handouts to underachieving people to encourage them to produce children and also a radical tax cutting agenda ie allowing people to keep their money ie wot they have worked for.
But its still not Corbyn Abbot or McDonnell!
So it's 45 - 35 min and 40 maj!!!
Then when we do win we can make Amber PM!!!!
If Con get 45% the majority will be a lot bigger than 40?
Hopefully GIN but as a Watford fan I am always cautious
Hadn't seen that one before? He's a card, that John McDonnell. Despite being more impressive in many ways than Corbyn, he seems on a personal level much nastier.
He also needs help with that undiagnosed specific blindness that means he cannot spot giant communist and Stalin flags at, of all places, a trade union may day rally.
McDonnell is pure filth.
Is that a euphemism for "a worthless, scumbag shite"?
It's the worst CON campaign of all time! We should have focused on proper policies such as stopping all 'tax credits' which are really handouts to underachieving people to encourage them to produce children and also a radical tax cutting agenda ie allowing people to keep their money ie wot they have worked for.
Well, IMO whoever wins is in for an utterly brutal time. Won't last five years.
Yes, I think the party will be gunning for May as soon as Brexit is done. Lots of unhappy people with the leftist crap on energy price caps and the racial pay charter.
But what's the difference between May's energy cap and Cameron's 2015 rail fares cap ?
ROCs receive subsidies from the taxpayers and energy companies don't?
You mean TOCs. And actually that's not the issue. The issue is that for some rail users (like me, but perhaps not you, but I'm not sure) there is no choice but to commute to work by train.
Yah, ROCs is a work acronym that auto-correct changed.
Yes, it is is either use the train to get to Manchester or stay in Manchester overnight.
Driving over Woodhead or Snake Pass on a daily basis isn't really an option for me
Love the Snake Pass, when it's open,
If only there was an electrified mainline between Manchester and Sheffield....
Tell me about it, so long as it stops at Dore & Totley
I was referring to the Woodhead Line so scandalously closed in 1981:
Not good for Dore and Totley, but it was great if you lived in Penistone.
But to cycle from Wortley to Dunford Bridge and back is one of life's true pleasures. I'm pleased they closed the line. I wish they would extend the M67 to Stocksbridge though.
Corbyn was head and shoulders against the turncoat tonight, she was shifty and evasive while he came across as a human being with actual blood in his veins.
It's the worst CON campaign of all time! We should have focused on proper policies such as stopping all 'tax credits' which are really handouts to underachieving people to encourage them to produce children and also a radical tax cutting agenda ie allowing people to keep their money ie wot they have worked for.
Comments
If only there was an electrified mainline between Manchester and Sheffield....
He also needs help with that undiagnosed specific blindness that means he cannot spot giant communist and Stalin flags at, of all places, a trade union may day rally.
Is it worth it?
Currently I am sticking to my 76 majority opinion.
Fox jr has just filled in his postal vote for the LD though.
Anyhoo, TMay was rubbish there, but will still win easily.
Jez will never win over the marginals and Lab need to win by over 10% in England to compensate for the lack of seats in Scotland.
I've taken funnier punches in the face.
lol
More likely to have asylum seekers fleeing these shores though!
The idea that any of us can predict exactly what will happen in five years time given the events of the last 12 days should be for the birds.
Because however much some will ignore the baggage, and however many will be enthused by the manifesto and the leaders, there are still a lot of voters left who will be upset by the baggage who cannot be reached, who could have been by those without it.
He knows enough about numbers to be credible on the economy too, and he's shaken off the worst traits that he absorbed during the Brown years.
I would be very afraid of him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodhead_line
Not good for Dore and Totley, but it was great if you lived in Penistone.
It's the worst CON campaign of all time! We should have focused on proper policies such as stopping all 'tax credits' which are really handouts to underachieving people to encourage them to produce children and also a radical tax cutting agenda ie allowing people to keep their money ie wot they have worked for.
But its still not Corbyn Abbot or McDonnell!
So it's 45 - 35 min and 40 maj!!!
Then when we do win we can make Amber PM!!!!
76 Majority sounds pretty good - comfortable majority for ease of governance, but not out of sight, cannot push the backbenchers too far, and if things go tits up then Labour could overhaul it with a good performance next time.
Equally it show how his dimness allows him to be exploited by people like McDonnell who is surely the slimiest person in British politics
Today's 24 hour media cycle, and social media , desperate for soundbites, attack lines and pithy quotes, probably influences how debates have hollowed out as much as anything else.
TMICIPM still nailed on
That McDonnell stuff on knee-capping is just poison.
Every time I despair of TMay (about every five minutes) and start to think Hmm, maybe Labour would be OK, I am reminded that the Corbyn leadership team is actively evil.
Not inept, or misguided, or silly, or overly naive, but actively nasty, cruel, dangerous and treasonable. UGH."
Quite. How Labour supporting posters on here are living with this passes my comprehension (especially those who will, without apparent irony, talk of the Nasty Party)
May's was more in administration, and in local government, with her political activity preferred as 1:1 doorstep campaigning, so she is better behind the desk than in combative debate.
At least 100 in and at least 1 person paying Additional Rate tax
None of us were voting Labour!!!
As an aside i've always suspected that a problem with political polling, especially YouGov type panels where the same people get polled repeatedly, is that people use the voting intention as a proxy for expressing an opinion on the day's/week's events - to the extent that they reflect on the performance of the parties. And therefore modify their voting intention (be it by switching party or changing their certainty to vote) whilst never actually changing their ultimate preference.
All the Conservatives would need to do would be to make Andrea Jenkyns their leader.
Now, which MP might be acceptable to the Corbynistas and the moderates who accept left-wing options are popular again?
I don't rule out 48 - 26 yet!
I wish they would extend the M67 to Stocksbridge though.