Today, I do not believe Britain will be a thing in ten years.
This is an utter catastrophe.
The Scots will still be part of Britain and of these great islands of nations. They are our friends, allies and loved neighbours and that will not change. It is time for them to strike out into the world. I doubt many more 10% of Irish people would want to return to the union. Yet Ireland is our great friend and neighbour.
I agree with the Prof. Today might well have been the day that the United Kingdom's death warrant was signed. The Westminster government said in effect that a democratic mandate in the Scottish Parliament was to be countermanded for the convenience of the UK government.
'Convenience' is a highly loaded word. You could more reasonably put it as: "Given the responsibility of the UK parliament to act in the interests of the whole of the UK, a request from the Scottish parliament for a referendum at a completely impractical time, and only two years since the last one on the same subject, has been denied, but the request will be considered in due course.'
Of course it's a highly loaded word. But the Prime Minister is setting aside a democratic mandate explicitly stated in the SNP's manifesto (in the same week that she has been forced belatedly to recognise her own party's manifesto commitments).
I have no doubt that the SNP are playing this in a way most calculated to achieve their longstanding aims. You can call that bad faith if you wish to use another highly loaded phrase.
But inconveniently, the SNP are putting their manifesto into practice. If the Prime Minister wishes to argue that now is not a good time, she needs to be a hell of a lot clearer about when is a good time if she is to retain any credibility as a leader of the entire United Kingdom.
It's not for the SNP to unilaterally determine when a second referendum will be held.
I firmly believe that the EU referendum vote should be implemented. While I regard it as a national disaster, the people have spoken.
I also firmly believe that the SNP have a mandate to call for a second referendum, based on their manifesto last year and their command of the Scottish Parliament.
The one does not exclude the other and the Prime Minister does not have the moral right simply to refuse to hold a second Scottish independence referendum just because it is inconvenient.
They do not have the right to call a referendum until Brexit talks have been concluded, no poll of Scots supports that
So government by poll, eh? What happens if polls start to indicate that Brits do not want to leave the EU?
We had a referendum where Scots backed the Union and s referendum where Britains voted to leave the EU. If Labour or the LDs or Labour fight and win an election on a platform of rejoicing the EU or EEA then so be it but we must respect the referendum result to leave first and see the terms May agreed for our departure
May is increasing the chance of breaking the union. The only question is whether it is deliberate or not.
Probably incompetence rather than malice.. Maybe we'll get another u turn next week.
I'm expecting one. The question will be how the Prime Minister manages to extricate herself with the minimum embarrassment.
FWIW I think the SNP have learned the lessons from 2014's defeat - I fear the "Establishment" learnt none from it's victory - leading in part to it's June 2016 defeat.
The coming mood music will be as important as the "facts" that both sides bring to the table. My overwhelming sense is that the PM has made a terrible strategic error.
Many Scots, including Unionists, will not enjoy being told by the "English PM" that she will reject without discussion the will of the Scottish parliament. The ghost of Thatcher in Scotland Mk II will be rife. Polls may show many things but there will be a sense of unease tonight that will run for many years to come.
This is wishful thinking. Most Scots do not see her as the 'English PM', and those who do are already Yes voters.
Theresa May has at last put an end to the appeasement strategy. You don't win by retreating every time.
I used "English PM" deliberately.
Neither do you necessarily win by fixing bayonets and "going over the top".
So what should you do? Just sit there, being shelled?
May has one job. To deliver Brexit. For the whole of the UK.
She is dealing with the Scotland that she finds.The Scotland that voted - less than a thousand days ago - to remain in the UK. If they wanted something else, the Scots had the opportunity to vote for it. They didn't. Why should May pander to that minority who represent the losers?
I'm afraid the PM and Mundell have handled the Scottish angle desperately badly. The Scotland she "finds" is one that voted significantly against BREXIT and yet this administration has barely made any effort to bring Scots on board. Look at the shambles over agriculture powers and the almost total lack of discussions with any of the devolved administration over BREXIT.
The Scots were told the Union would mean remaining in the EU. Hhmmmm.
I'm heartily saddened by the current situation but the long term implications are to my mind clear and it doesn't bode well for the Union.
the Scots were also told the referendum would be a once in a generation occasion
you appear to want to air brush statements you dont like out of history
I agree and said as such at the time. "Generation of a fruit fly" was my comment..
However there is little doubt that circumstances have changed dramatically as BREXITeers told us many times they would. It's a crock of ....
The destructive selfishness of the Scot Nat position is, actually, quite breathtaking
Sturgeon could have asked for a vote right now, and (as Nabavi says), that might have been just about feasible, it would make Brexit trickier if they voted YES, but fair enough....
Instead she specifically asked for a vote between autumn 2018 and Spring 2019, making it extremely likely that the Brexit talks will fail, and Britain will crash out without a deal, as the EU would (justifiably) say they have no idea who they are negotiating with, and whether this political entity will exist when Brexit is ratified and applied.
e.g. How can Spain come to an agreement with the UK on fisheries, when the UK fisheries in question might no longer exist two weeks after Brexit is inked? Any deal would be potentially futile. Consequently, there would be no deal.
So Sturgeon was basically demanding something she knows to be highly damaging to the economic interests of all Britons.
It's quite mind-bogglingly self-serving, and indeed immoral.
If the Scots continue to elect this nationalist party, which actively wishes harm on the rest of us, then I will be happy to see them go. They want to fuck us over. So fuck them.
Yep, the Scots have to dump the divisive Nats.
It's all on their heads. Nobody else.
Referendums are not enough. They have to boot them out of government.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no longer consider myself a British patriot. That ended when 17m of my fellow citizens decided to pull us out of the EU and turn our backs on our colleagues and friends in continental Europe, because many of them didn't like foreigners adding to the gaiety of our once-open nation.
I now consider myself a European Londoner first and an Englishman second – mainly for sporting loyalties of which I am still proud. The Union, for me, is a spent force.
The Scots should strike out into the world, and we should wish them well as a close friend and loved neighbour. If they don't, as @Pulpstar said, their beautiful, wonderful nation will forever be divided. If they do, few will want to return to what's left of the 'Union' within a decade or so. Pro-Independence in an Indy Scotland will by 2030 be running at 65-70%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
Mr. Bojabob, so, because your side lost a vote you no longer love a country that previously you did?
That's rather sad. Sadder still that you feel as much (or more) loyalty to foreigners than your own people.
Mr. Nabavi, indeed, and I wish those who keep raising stupid little regional assemblies in England would learn that lesson and not make an even worse error of judgement.
Today, I do not believe Britain will be a thing in ten years.
This is an utter catastrophe.
It's being destroyed not by Scottish nationalism but by English nationalism.
Indeed.
It's the English right who have walked away from the union.
No. We had to watch on in 2014 as the Union's existence was in real danger of ending. We didn't do that. Labour did.
Personally it doesn't bother me if Scotland goes independent and would be happy for the vote to be before A50 is triggered. But trying to blame the English for the actions of the SNP is ridiculous.
Today, I do not believe Britain will be a thing in ten years.
This is an utter catastrophe.
The Scots will still be part of Britain and of these great islands of nations. They are our friends, allies and loved neighbours and that will not change. It is time for them to strike out into the world. I doubt many more 10% of Irish people would want to return to the union. Yet Ireland is our great friend and neighbour.
We are in the process of dumping all over the Irish as well, of course!
They do not have the right to call a referendum until Brexit talks have been concluded, no poll of Scots supports that
Does a narrow UK wide majority give the UK government the right to take Scotland out of the EU when the people voted overwhelmingly to remain? If it's a union of equals then clearly it does not.
Yes as the Scots voted to stay in the Union after PM Cameron had promised an EU referendum in 2014
The destructive selfishness of the Scot Nat position is, actually, quite breathtaking
Sturgeon could have asked for a vote right now, and (as Nabavi says), that might have been just about feasible, it would make Brexit trickier if they voted YES, but fair enough....
Instead she specifically asked for a vote between autumn 2018 and Spring 2019, making it extremely likely that the Brexit talks will fail, and Britain will crash out without a deal, as the EU would (justifiably) say they have no idea who they are negotiating with, and whether this political entity will exist when Brexit is ratified and applied.
e.g. How can Spain come to an agreement with the UK on fisheries, when the UK fisheries in question might no longer exist two weeks after Brexit is inked? Any deal would be potentially futile. Consequently, there would be no deal.
So Sturgeon was basically demanding something she knows to be highly damaging to the economic interests of all Britons.
It's quite mind-bogglingly self-serving, and indeed immoral.
If the Scots continue to elect this nationalist party, which actively wishes harm on the rest of us, then I will be happy to see them go. They want to fuck us over. So fuck them.
Today, I do not believe Britain will be a thing in ten years.
This is an utter catastrophe.
It's being destroyed not by Scottish nationalism but by English nationalism.
Indeed.
It's the English right who have walked away from the union.
Yes, and in doing so they may ultimately be creating an inevitability around losing other positions of strength e.g. permanent seat on the UN security council.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no longer consider myself a British patriot. That ended when 17m of my fellow citizens decided to pull us out of the EU and turn our backs on our colleagues and friends in continental Europe, because many of them didn't like foreigners adding to the gaiety of our once-open nation.
I now consider myself a European Londoner first and an Englishman second – mainly for sporting loyalties of which I am still proud. The Union, for me, is a spent force.
The Scots should strike out into the world, and we should wish them well as a close friend and loved neighbour. If they don't, as @Pulpstar said, their beautiful, wonderful nation will forever be divided. If they do, few will want to return to what's left of the 'Union' within a decade or so. Pro-Independence in an Indy Scotland will by 2030 be running at 65-70%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
Even if you do manage to get rid of Corbyn, your party is still completely fucked because it's full of people who hate the idea of Englishness.
The Scots were told the Union would mean remaining in the EU. Hhmmmn.
Not quite as I recall Jack. What they were told was that leaving the Union meant leaving the EU. Which was true. And incidentally is still true, although it does now hold out the remote prospect of rejoining it.
However, Sturgeon's real aim given her prevarication and incoherence on policy appears to have been to whip up some anti-English sentiment ahead of the local elections. If it was, mission accomplished.
If it were me, I would have called her bluff and held the referendum on the same day, blaming Sturgeon's xenophobia for it. That would have destroyed Scottish independence and the SNP itself in one fell swoop if polling is to be believed. But May is not by nature aggressive or given to bold moves.
May is increasing the chance of breaking the union. The only question is whether it is deliberate or not.
Probably incompetence rather than malice.. Maybe we'll get another u turn next week.
I think you should address your complaint to Tony Blair, who was warned that his half-baked devolution plan would eventually lead to the break-up of the United Kingdom.
This latest episode in that process is based entirely on an excuse. If it wasn't synthetic outrage about the EU, it would be synthetic outrage about something else.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no longer consider myself a British patriot. That ended when 17m of my fellow citizens decided to pull us out of the EU and turn our backs on our colleagues and friends in continental Europe, because many of them didn't like foreigners adding to the gaiety of our once-open nation.
I now consider myself a European Londoner first and an Englishman second – mainly for sporting loyalties of which I am still proud. The Union, for me, is a spent force.
The Scots should strike out into the world, and we should wish them well as a close friend and loved neighbour. If they don't, as @Pulpstar said, their beautiful, wonderful nation will forever be divided. If they do, few will want to return to what's left of the 'Union' within a decade or so. Pro-Independence in an Indy Scotland will by 2030 be running at 65-70%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
The only mystery to me is why SLab don't see this. It is clearly their way forward.
Today, I do not believe Britain will be a thing in ten years.
This is an utter catastrophe.
It's being destroyed not by Scottish nationalism but by English nationalism.
Isn't it both?
It survived Scottish nationalism. It will not survive the English nationalism.
Oh, don't be daft. It's not English nationalism tearing the UK apart. It's English apathy in the face of Scottish nationalism. The English aren't tearing the union apart, they just no longer care if the Scots do. In the words of the Wedding Present: "Oh well that's fine, I don't care, Any more, Nobody's twisting your arm, Here's the key, There's the door."
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no longer consider myself a British patriot. That ended when 17m of my fellow citizens decided to pull us out of the EU and turn our backs on our colleagues and friends in continental Europe, because many of them didn't like foreigners adding to the gaiety of our once-open nation.
I now consider myself a European Londoner first and an Englishman second – mainly for sporting loyalties of which I am still proud. The Union, for me, is a spent force.
The Scots should strike out into the world, and we should wish them well as a close friend and loved neighbour. If they don't, as @Pulpstar said, their beautiful, wonderful nation will forever be divided. If they do, few will want to return to what's left of the 'Union' within a decade or so. Pro-Independence in an Indy Scotland will by 2030 be running at 65-70%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
They still don't want out according to most polling despite the posts of left-wing Europhiles like you suggesting Yes is headed for a landslide
The Scots were told the Union would mean remaining in the EU. Hhmmmn.
Not quite as I recall Jack. What they were told was that leaving the Union meant leaving the EU. Which was true. And incidentally is still true, although it does now hold out the remote prospect of rejoining it.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no longer consider myself a British patriot. That ended when 17m of my fellow citizens decided to pull us out of the EU and turn our backs on our colleagues and friends in continental Europe, because many of them didn't like foreigners adding to the gaiety of our once-open nation.
I now consider myself a European Londoner first and an Englishman second – mainly for sporting loyalties of which I am still proud. The Union, for me, is a spent force.
The Scots should strike out into the world, and we should wish them well as a close friend and loved neighbour. If they don't, as @Pulpstar said, their beautiful, wonderful nation will forever be divided. If they do, few will want to return to what's left of the 'Union' within a decade or so. Pro-Independence in an Indy Scotland will by 2030 be running at 65-70%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
Mr. Bojabob, so, because your side lost a vote you no longer love a country that previously you did?
That's rather sad. Sadder still that you feel as much (or more) loyalty to foreigners than your own people.
Mr. Nabavi, indeed, and I wish those who keep raising stupid little regional assemblies in England would learn that lesson and not make an even worse error of judgement.
You see, I don't see people as 'foreigners' as you do, and as many Brexiteers do (see Norman Tebbit's Lords speech recently). I work with lots of EU citizens. I don't have a loyalty to my 'own people'. I either like people or I don't – where they come from is not a factor for me.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no longer consider myself a British patriot. That ended when 17m of my fellow citizens decided to pull us out of the EU and turn our backs on our colleagues and friends in continental Europe, because many of them didn't like foreigners adding to the gaiety of our once-open nation.
I now consider myself a European Londoner first and an Englishman second – mainly for sporting loyalties of which I am still proud. The Union, for me, is a spent force.
The Scots should strike out into the world, and we should wish them well as a close friend and loved neighbour. If they don't, as @Pulpstar said, their beautiful, wonderful nation will forever be divided. If they do, few will want to return to what's left of the 'Union' within a decade or so. Pro-Independence in an Indy Scotland will by 2030 be running at 65-70%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
They still don't want out according to most polling despite the posts of left-wing Europhiles like you suggesting Yes is headed for a landslide
Nope, I don't think it will be a landslide. Scotland is pretty much split down the middle. And, yes, I am a Europhile. I like Europe. I live in it.
The Scots were told the Union would mean remaining in the EU. Hhmmmn.
Not quite as I recall Jack. What they were told was that leaving the Union meant leaving the EU. Which was true. And incidentally is still true, although it does now hold out the remote prospect of rejoining it.
May is increasing the chance of breaking the union. The only question is whether it is deliberate or not.
Probably incompetence rather than malice.. Maybe we'll get another u turn next week.
I'm expecting one. The question will be how the Prime Minister manages to extricate herself with the minimum embarrassment.
I offer a £50 bet TMay does not U-turn, and agree to a Scots vote pre-Brexit.
No bet, not least because the terms of the U-turn may leave it unclear which side of Brexit the Scottish vote takes place, or whether it takes place on Brexit day (henceforth to be known as B-day).
Can't see any way May will allow the Sots a referendum before the next UK GE. If they do and it leads to break up of the Union, then the Tories will own that break-up and are likely to be punished for it in a subsequent GE.
If May is forced into agreeing a referendum before May 2020, then expect her to engineer a GE before the referendum date.
Today, I do not believe Britain will be a thing in ten years.
This is an utter catastrophe.
It's being destroyed not by Scottish nationalism but by English nationalism.
Isn't it both?
It survived Scottish nationalism. It will not survive the English nationalism.
Alastair, from where I was living through those years, the rise of English consciousness as a separate nation derived entirely from the strong resurgence of Scottish & Welsh consciousness of being separate.
That, I believe, was the hoped-for effect. It has succeeded. Why complain that the SNP are approaching their longed-for destination?
They are, as everybody points out, superlative politicians, able to run rings round the innocent English.
I also firmly believe that the SNP have a mandate to call for a second referendum, based on their manifesto last year and their command of the Scottish Parliament.
Greens crapping on their own voters by deciding after they're elected that they're going to kowtow to another party can't conjure a mandate for that other party into existence.
Sturgeon could, with support from her Green pals, call a general election. The only reason she doesn't is she knows she'd get an almighty kick up the butt.
People are really bad at reading the Green's manifesto.
Today, I do not believe Britain will be a thing in ten years.
This is an utter catastrophe.
It's being destroyed not by Scottish nationalism but by English nationalism.
Isn't it both?
It survived Scottish nationalism. It will not survive the English nationalism.
If I recall Wales voted Leave too and despite their endless whinging Scottish nationalists have their own Parliament with significant powers which is more than can be said for England
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no longer consider myself a British patriot. That ended when 17m of my fellow citizens decided to pull us out of the EU and turn our backs on our colleagues and friends in continental Europe, because many of them didn't like foreigners adding to the gaiety of our once-open nation.
I now consider myself a European Londoner first and an Englishman second – mainly for sporting loyalties of which I am still proud. The Union, for me, is a spent force.
The Scots should strike out into the world, and we should wish them well as a close friend and loved neighbour. If they don't, as @Pulpstar said, their beautiful, wonderful nation will forever be divided. If they do, few will want to return to what's left of the 'Union' within a decade or so. Pro-Independence in an Indy Scotland will by 2030 be running at 65-70%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
"Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go."
Agreed. And actually that's a neat way of framing it, as I mentioned to @WilliamGlenn upthread.
Today, I do not believe Britain will be a thing in ten years.
This is an utter catastrophe.
It's being destroyed not by Scottish nationalism but by English nationalism.
Indeed.
It's the English right who have walked away from the union.
Yes, and in doing so they may ultimately be creating an inevitability around losing other positions of strength e.g. permanent seat on the UN security council.
Can you actually explain how this would happen under the UN Charter?
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no longer consider myself a British patriot. That ended when 17m of my fellow citizens decided to pull us out of the EU and turn our backs on our colleagues and friends in continental Europe, because many of them didn't like foreigners adding to the gaiety of our once-open nation.
I now consider myself a European Londoner first and an Englishman second – mainly for sporting loyalties of which I am still proud. The Union, for me, is a spent force.
The Scots should strike out into the world, and we should wish them well as a close friend and loved neighbour. If they don't, as @Pulpstar said, their beautiful, wonderful nation will forever be divided. If they do, few will want to return to what's left of the 'Union' within a decade or so. Pro-Independence in an Indy Scotland will by 2030 be running at 65-70%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
You should have thought on that when Labour was:
1) Encouraging anti-English bigotry for electoral benefit in Scotland and Wales
2) Creating Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish parliaments without a corresponding English parliament
3) Allowing unlimited and unprepared for immigration into deprived areas whilst shouting "British Jobs For British Workers"
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no longer consider myself a British patriot. That ended when 17m of my fellow citizens decided to pull us out of the EU and turn our backs on our colleagues and friends in continental Europe, because many of them didn't like foreigners adding to the gaiety of our once-open nation.
I now consider myself a European Londoner first and an Englishman second – mainly for sporting loyalties of which I am still proud. The Union, for me, is a spent force.
The at 65-70%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
Even if you do manage to get rid of Corbyn, your party is still completely fucked because it's full of people who hate the idea of Englishness.
Maybe. I am intrigued by the idea of Englishness, though. I am very comfortable with my idea of what it is. But I am not sure it is the same idea of it that you might have. What I dislike is people claiming ownership of it. That's why I have always disliked nationalism, including the SNP variety.
Today, I do not believe Britain will be a thing in ten years.
This is an utter catastrophe.
It's being destroyed not by Scottish nationalism but by English nationalism.
Isn't it both?
It survived Scottish nationalism. It will not survive the English nationalism.
Oh, don't be daft. It's not English nationalism tearing the UK apart. It's English apathy in the face of Scottish nationalism. The English aren't tearing the union apart, they just no longer care if the Scots do. In the words of the Wedding Present: "Oh well that's fine, I don't care, Any more, Nobody's twisting your arm, Here's the key, There's the door."
Maybe have a word with your excitable, non apathetic fellow countrymen on here?
The fact is that while the choice as to whether to be in or out of the EU might have been a binary choice, the kind of Brexit that Brexit means could have been an a la carte choice including EFTA and many other things. The idea that Brexit now means the more or less total severing of any organisational bond with the EU is as unexpected as it is radical.
It implies no recognition of how close the vote was overall, and the fact that Scotland and England voted different ways.
There is no sense of reasonable compromise, and that really does risk breaking up the UK.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no longer consider myself a British patriot. That ended when 17m of my fellow citizens decided to pull us out of the EU and turn our backs on our colleagues and friends in continental Europe, because many of them didn't like foreigners adding to the gaiety of our once-open nation.
I now consider myself a European Londoner first and an Englishman second – mainly for sporting loyalties of which I am still proud. The Union, for me, is a spent force.
The Scots should strike out into the world, and we should wish them well as a close friend and loved neighbour. If they don't, as @Pulpstar said, their beautiful, wonderful nation will forever be divided. If they do, few will want to return to what's left of the 'Union' within a decade or so. Pro-Independence in an Indy Scotland will by 2030 be running at 65-70%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
The only mystery to me is why SLab don't see this. It is clearly their way forward.
Today, I do not believe Britain will be a thing in ten years.
This is an utter catastrophe.
It's being destroyed not by Scottish nationalism but by English nationalism.
Yep.
It isn't. English nationalism is playing very little role in British politics right now. What is endangering Britain is the short-termism in the government and in British political circles generally. After the first indyref, the government simply forgot about Scotland rather than taking steps to strengthen the Union. On to the next business. May's team has been similarly blinkered.
Let's see whether any senior Unionist politician susses that they need a vision to improve the Union. Last time they left it until a few days before the referendum and promised the Scottish government more financial control. They played the "Oh? Is that what's happening this week? Well let's chuck the kilted freemasons some dosh and they'll be happy" card. They couldn't see further than the ends of their noses and they still can't. They don't even understand what the Union is. They think it's only a political and financial structure.
Frankly if only the idiots had asked me, I could have given them some good advice.
There actually is a good plan available to strengthen the Union. I'm not going to discuss it here, but I'll contribute to rolling it out in the months to come.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no longer consider myself a British patriot. That ended when 17m of my fellow citizens decided to pull us out of the EU and turn our backs on our colleagues and friends in continental Europe, because many of them didn't like foreigners adding to the gaiety of our once-open nation.
I now consider myself a European Londoner first and an Englishman second – mainly for sporting loyalties of which I am still proud. The Union, for me, is a spent force.
The will by 2030 be running at 65-70%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
You should have thought on that when Labour was:
1) Encouraging anti-English bigotry for electoral benefit in Scotland and Wales
2) Creating Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish parliaments without a corresponding English parliament
3) Allowing unlimited and unprepared for immigration into deprived areas whilst shouting "British Jobs For British Workers"
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no l%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
They still don't want out according to most polling despite the posts of left-wing Europhiles like you suggesting Yes is headed for a landslide
Nope, I don't think it will be a landslide. Scotland is pretty much split down the middle. And, yes, I am a Europhile. I like Europe. I live in it.
How do you think TMay should have responded to Sturgeon's demand, other than what she has done? No credible British prime minister could accept twin negotiations on Brexit and Joxit, when the mere existence of the latter guarantees failure of the former.
Short of saying "Of course Nicola, we'll let you have another referendum whoever you like", the PM might as well have used the form of words in Arkell vs Pressdram for all the difference it would have made to the Nats' reaction.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no l%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
They still don't want out according to most polling despite the posts of left-wing Europhiles like you suggesting Yes is headed for a landslide
Nope, I don't think it will be a landslide. Scotland is pretty much split down the middle. And, yes, I am a Europhile. I like Europe. I live in it.
How do you think TMay should have responded to Sturgeon's demand, other than what she has done? No credible British prime minister could accept twin negotiations on Brexit and Joxit, when the mere existence of the latter guarantees failure of the former.
I think she should have worked much harder to include the Scots in the Brexit decision making before we got to this point.
I also firmly believe that the SNP have a mandate to call for a second referendum, based on their manifesto last year and their command of the Scottish Parliament.
Greens crapping on their own voters by deciding after they're elected that they're going to kowtow to another party can't conjure a mandate for that other party into existence.
Sturgeon could, with support from her Green pals, call a general election. The only reason she doesn't is she knows she'd get an almighty kick up the butt.
People are really bad at reading the Green's manifesto.
It has become clear today that people are really bad at reading, full stop.
Mr. Bojabob, liking individuals and feeling patriotic towards a country are wholly different things. Titus Manlius Torquatus executed his own son when he disobeyed orders. I gather the Lionheart and Saladin rather respected one another.
General comment: it's amazing how the English are being blamed [by some] for events in Scotland, when the English had no votes in the establishment of devolved political entities, no votes in Holyrood elections and no votes in the past (or future) referendum on Scottish independence.
Mr. Bojabob, so, because your side lost a vote you no longer love a country that previously you did?
That's rather sad. Sadder still that you feel as much (or more) loyalty to foreigners than your own people.
Mr. Nabavi, indeed, and I wish those who keep raising stupid little regional assemblies in England would learn that lesson and not make an even worse error of judgement.
You see, I don't see people as 'foreigners' as you do, and as many Brexiteers do (see Norman Tebbit's Lords speech recently). I work with lots of EU citizens. I don't have a loyalty to my 'own people'. I either like people or I don't – where they come from is not a factor for me.
So you're totally nonjudgmental about national origin, but at the same time you're willing to write off the 17 million people who voted leave?
Every human has the tribal instinct. It's very funny that people like you think you're immune, when in reality you just have different dividing lines.
Jack, how do you make ANY practical effort to bring the Scots on board? They voted for the other side of a binary choice.
There is one thing we can take from Sturgeon's actions. A Miliband Govt. propped up by the SNP would have been every bit in the pocket of the Scots as the election poster suggested.
Of course it was a binary choice but so it would appear was the binary choice to pull in the devolved governments or not. May chose not to.
On the day May became PM I reiterated that she should invoke A50 immediately and announce our exit date as 31st December 2018. The UK required clarity. Further she should have told Sturgeon that she accepted the situation had decisively changed and recognized the SNP mandate for another referendum that could take place in the Spring of 2018.
Instead we have had dither and a complete clusterf*ck.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no l%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
They still don't want out according to most polling despite the posts of left-wing Europhiles like you suggesting Yes is headed for a landslide
Nope, I don't think it will be a landslide. Scotland is pretty much split down the middle. And, yes, I am a Europhile. I like Europe. I live in it.
How do you think TMay should have responded to Sturgeon's demand, other than what she has done? No credible British prime minister could accept twin negotiations on Brexit and Joxit, when the mere existence of the latter guarantees failure of the former.
She could have preempted it months ago and come up with a formulation for allowing the people - all of them - to have a say on the final Brexit deal.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no longer consider myself a British patriot. That ended when 17m of my fellow citizens decided to pull us out of the EU and turn our backs on our colleagues and friends in continental Europe, because many of them didn't like foreigners adding to the gaiety of our once-open nation.
I now consider myself a European Londoner first and an Englishman second – mainly for sporting loyalties of which I am still proud. The Union, for me, is a spent force.
The Scots should strike out into the world, and we should wish them well as a close friend and loved neighbour. If they don't, as @Pulpstar said, their beautiful, wonderful nation will forever be divided. If they do, few will want to return to what's left of the 'Union' within a decade or so. Pro-Independence in an Indy Scotland will by 2030 be running at 65-70%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
usual english creeping
it's quite repellent
odd that you dont blame the welsh
Why should I? It was the English votes that mattered.
Jack, how do you make ANY practical effort to bring the Scots on board? They voted for the other side of a binary choice.
45% did. The Union needs to be reinvigorated and imaginatively, is the answer. Then the non-independence side of the binary choice won't be the status quo.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no l%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
They still don't want out according to most polling despite the posts of left-wing Europhiles like you suggesting Yes is headed for a landslide
Nope, I don't think it will be a landslide. Scotland is pretty much split down the middle. And, yes, I am a Europhile. I like Europe. I live in it.
How do you think TMay should have responded to Sturgeon's demand, other than what she has done? No credible British prime minister could accept twin negotiations on Brexit and Joxit, when the mere existence of the latter guarantees failure of the former.
She could have preempted it months ago and come up with a formulation for allowing the people - all of them - to have a say on the final Brexit deal.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no l%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
They still don't want out according to most polling despite the posts of left-wing Europhiles like you suggesting Yes is headed for a landslide
Nope, I don't think it will be a landslide. Scotland is pretty much split down the middle. And, yes, I am a Europhile. I like Europe. I live in it.
How do you think TMay should have responded to Sturgeon's demand, other than what she has done? No credible British prime minister could accept twin negotiations on Brexit and Joxit, when the mere existence of the latter guarantees failure of the former.
She could have preempted it months ago and come up with a formulation for allowing the people - all of them - to have a say on the final Brexit deal.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
Even if you do manage to get rid of Corbyn, your party is still completely fucked because it's full of people who hate the idea of Englishness.
Maybe. I am intrigued by the idea of Englishness, though. I am very comfortable with my idea of what it is. But I am not sure it is the same idea of it that you might have. What I dislike is people claiming ownership of it. That's why I have always disliked nationalism, including the SNP variety.
And your bloody party gave the Scots devolution and fed the beast. What was it George Robertson claimed: "devolution will kill nationalism stone dead."
I'd like to think that Englishness is what we are as a result of being born or choosing to live in this country. As has been mentioned by others, the English condition is in large part a resentment towards other nations being pandered to whilst our own identity is sneered at by the likes of Emily Thornbury. We saw the FCO flying the Welsh flag on 1 March, will we see the St George's cross over it on 23 April? I wouldn't bet on it.
Mr. Bojabob, liking individuals and feeling patriotic towards a country are wholly different things. Titus Manlius Torquatus executed his own son when he disobeyed orders. I gather the Lionheart and Saladin rather respected one another.
General comment: it's amazing how the English are being blamed [by some] for events in Scotland, when the English had no votes in the establishment of devolved political entities<?b>, no votes in Holyrood elections and no votes in the past (or future) referendum on Scottish independence.
Lol. Since the talk is all of manifestos & mandates, the devolution proposals were clearly stated in Labour's 1997 manifesto for which the 'English' voted for in a landslide.
If at the end of this the Union dies, so be it, the Scots have continuously voted for a party that is envenomed with anti-Englishness, and will happily undermine and scupper the trickiest negotiations in our modern history, to the great detriment of all Britons - just so they can have another referendum.
Be aware that Nicola Sturgeon is an extremely divisive figure in Scotland.
My Gaelic-speaking neighbour, a Unionist Leave voter - a lovely lady who is in her 80s and who rarely says negative things to me about people - tells me she feels like punching Sturgeon in the face and strangling her whenever she sees her come on to the TV screen.
Anyway, rather off-topic but I need some advice. My union (the ATL) is voting on a merger with the NUT. I am implacably opposed, not least because they are holding up the UCU as an example of a successful super-Union (which has merely halved pensions and holidays while pay remains stagnant - except curiously for the pay of VCs and Union reps). I became aware earlier this year that despite multiple notifications they had not changed my address. I remedied that slightly past the deadline for balloting via a rather curt email and was told another ballot would be sent to my current address. That was a month ago. A week ago I rang up and asked where it was - they promised to despatch another. That hasn't arrived either. Moreover, I have checked my old address - no ballot was sent there either. It is not the postal service as other materials, including others from the ATL, are coming through fine - I even had a ballot paper for Vice President. The obvious inference is that they have not been sent.
Now that leaves me with a dilemma. Clearly they are in breach of two aspects of the TUCA 1992 - failing to maintain a current register, and failing to ballot on a merger. However, the ATL are refusing to hear any complaint. Should I complain to the certification officer (who seems a toothless tool of the TUC, quite frankly) or just let it go and switch to the NASUWT? Incidentally I will be switching anyway. I can't stay with a Union that's repeatedly lied to me.
Any thoughts or suggestions would be gratefully received, because I'm livid at the way they are behaving (and the new Union will be a monster that will be bad in every imaginable way) but I really could do without the hassle of a formal complaint.
The destructive selfishness of the Scot Nat position is, actually, quite breathtaking
Sturgeon could have asked for a vote right now, and (as Nabavi says), that might have been just about feasible, it would make Brexit trickier if they voted YES, but fair enough....
Instead she specifically asked for a vote between autumn 2018 and Spring 2019, making it extremely likely that the Brexit talks will fail, and Britain will crash out without a deal, as the EU would (justifiably) say they have no idea who they are negotiating with, and whether this political entity will exist when Brexit is ratified and applied.
e.g. How can Spain come to an agreement with the UK on fisheries, when the UK fisheries in question might no longer exist two weeks after Brexit is inked? Any deal would be potentially futile. Consequently, there would be no deal.
So Sturgeon was basically demanding something she knows to be highly damaging to the economic interests of all Britons.
It's quite mind-bogglingly self-serving, and indeed immoral.
If the Scots continue to elect this nationalist party, which actively wishes harm on the rest of us, then I will be happy to see them go. They want to fuck us over. So fuck them.
Oh the humanity, won't someone think of the children? Well at least those who are a quarter/eighth/sixteenth scottish.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
Even if you do manage to get rid of Corbyn, your party is still completely fucked because it's full of people who hate the idea of Englishness.
Maybe. I am intrigued by the idea of Englishness, though. I am very comfortable with my idea of what it is. But I am not sure it is the same idea of it that you might have. What I dislike is people claiming ownership of it. That's why I have always disliked nationalism, including the SNP variety.
And your bloody party gave the Scots devolution and fed the beast. What was it George Robertson claimed: "devolution will kill nationalism stone dead."
I'd like to think that Englishness is what we are as a result of being born or choosing to live in this country. As has been mentioned by others, the English condition is in large part a resentment towards other nations being pandered to whilst our own identity is sneered at by the likes of Emily Thornbury. We saw the FCO flying the Welsh flag on 1 March, will we see the St George's cross over it on 23 April? I wouldn't bet on it.
Shocking, isn't it, that the Scots were offered the chance to vote on whether they wanted a devolved government and decided they did? Democracy stinks.
The Tories could have proposed an English parliament, they could now. But they don't. I'd support it. I am all for an imaginative, wide-ranging constitutional convention and have said that on here many, many times.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
Your party conflated the Tories and the English for decades for base partisan reasons. What a shame that now you might reap that whirlwind!
Minority supported Scottish separatism, agitation and nationalism is the fault of the English, say embittered Remainers.
No, it's the fault of right wing English nationalists. It's not me who conflates the Conservative party with England.
Right wing English Nationalists in Sunderland. No wonder Labour's dying.
Southam is apparently incapable of recognising that Labour's stoking of Scottish nationalism in the 80s followed by a totally lopsided and partisan devolution settlement in the 90s might have contributed in some way to the situation we are now in.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% er Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots somes state.
I no longer consider myself a British patriot. That ended when 17m of my fellow citizens decided to pull us out of the EU and turn our backs on our colleagues and friends in continental Europe, because many of them didn't like foreigners adding to the gaiety of our once-open nation.
I now consider myself a European Londoner first and an Englishman second – mainly for sporting loyalties of which I am still proud. The Union, for me, is a spent force.
The Scots should strike out into the world, and we should wish them well as a close friend and loved neighbour. If they don't, as @Pulpstar said, their beautiful, wonderful nation will forever be divided. If they do, few will want to return to what's left of the 'Union' within a decade or so. Pro-Independence in an Indy Scotland will by 2030 be running at 65-70%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
usual english creeping
it's quite repellent
odd that you dont blame the welsh
Why should I? It was the English votes that mattered.
ah yes the welsh dont count
however, the closeness of the vote suggest they do, as did the votes of scots and paddies who also voted out
but like all english lefties you only want to wallow in Uriah Heep style self loathing
They even have the unionists thinking and talking in separatist language, and they've turned devolution into agitation.
That's pretty impressive for the side that lost by eleven points.
Cameron gave them everything they needed to keep on fighting the morning after the referendum result was announced. And just about everything that has happened since has played into the SNP's hands.
The SNP have thrived due to perceptions of inadequacy with Labour and treachery with the coalition-forming Liberal Democrats. This plus the longstanding emnity towards the Tories fractured the winning Remain vote.
The key to me though is that both their formidable election successes have come at a time when the Scottish left was in disarray yet the 2014 referendum result seemingly guaranteed membership of the United Kingdom "for a generation" so the SNP could not pursue their main objective. A part of their vote was given to them whilst they were being curbed.
Quite what the real SNP vote is with independence as a live, rather than subdued, issue remains to be seen.
I strongly suspect that it's lower than the percentages achieved in 2014, 2015 and 2016.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% of the electorate currently - they want independence despite knowing the oil price has crashed and the economics of separation are not good in the short to medium term. She now has three or four years to persuade 6% more to change their minds (while also knowing that some of the older Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots some of us have a genuine affection for the whole of the UK and loyalty to it. We despair at cack-handed, right-wing Tories whose actions and words have left the Union in such a precarious state.
I no longer consider myself a British patriot. That ended when 17m of my fellow citizens decided to pull us out of the EU and turn our backs on our colleagues and friends in continental Europe, because many of them didn't like foreigners adding to the gaiety of our once-open nation.
I now consider myself a European Londoner first and an Englishman second – mainly for sporting loyalties of which I am still proud. The Union, for me, is a spent force.
The Scots should strike out into the world, and we should wish them well as a close friend and loved neighbour. If they don't, as @Pulpstar said, their beautiful, wonderful nation will forever be divided. If they do, few will want to return to what's left of the 'Union' within a decade or so. Pro-Independence in an Indy Scotland will by 2030 be running at 65-70%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
The only mystery to me is why SLab don't see this. It is clearly their way forward.
SLab are Unionists
haha. They claim to be unionists now but for many years they fanned the flames of Scottish Nationalism when it suited them.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
Even if you do manage to get rid of Corbyn, your party is still completely fucked because it's full of people who hate the idea of Englishness.
Maybe. I am intrigued by the idea of Englishness, though. I am very comfortable with my idea of what it is. But I am not sure it is the same idea of it that you might have. What I dislike is people claiming ownership of it. That's why I have always disliked nationalism, including the SNP variety.
And your bloody party gave the Scots devolution and fed the beast. What was it George Robertson claimed: "devolution will kill nationalism stone dead."
I'd like to think that Englishness is what we are as a result of being born or choosing to live in this country. As has been mentioned by others, the English condition is in large part a resentment towards other nations being pandered to whilst our own identity is sneered at by the likes of Emily Thornbury. We saw the FCO flying the Welsh flag on 1 March, will we see the St George's cross over it on 23 April? I wouldn't bet on it.
You see, those attitudes are exactly what I see as the opposite of Englishness. I am often told by my American clients that I am "very English" (I am actually very polite in real life, believe it or not). I couldn't care less about the stuff you mention. I think Englishness is about being polite, having a fondness for cosiness, an aversion to extremes, being open and neighbourly and moaning about rain while loving the wonderful verdant landscapes it creates. I have never once noticed nor considered the perceived inevitability of flags borne on the FCO.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
Even if you do manage to get rid of Corbyn, your party is still completely fucked because it's full of people who hate the idea of Englishness.
Maybe. I am intrigued by the idea of Englishness, though. I am very comfortable with my idea of what it is. But I am not sure it is the same idea of it that you might have. What I dislike is people claiming ownership of it. That's why I have always disliked nationalism, including the SNP variety.
And your bloody party gave the Scots devolution and fed the beast. What was it George Robertson claimed: "devolution will kill nationalism stone dead."
I'd like to think that Englishness is what we are as a result of being born or choosing to live in this country. As has been mentioned by others, the English condition is in large part a resentment towards other nations being pandered to whilst our own identity is sneered at by the likes of Emily Thornbury. We saw the FCO flying the Welsh flag on 1 March, will we see the St George's cross over it on 23 April? I wouldn't bet on it.
You see, those attitudes are exactly what I see as the opposite of Englishness. I am often told by my American clients that I am "very English" (I am actually very polite in real life, believe it or not). I couldn't care less about the stuff you mention. I think Englishness is about being polite, having a fondness for cosiness, an aversion to extremes, being open and neighbourly and moaning about rain while loving the wonderful verdant landscapes it creates. I have never once noticed nor considered the perceived inequitability of flags borne on the FCO.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% er Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots somes state.
I no longer consider myself a British patriot. That ended when 17m of my fellow citizens decided to pull us out of the EU and turn our backs on our colleagues and friends in continental Europe, because many of them didn't like foreigners adding to the gaiety of our once-open nation.
I now consider myself a European Londoner first and an Englishman second – mainly for sporting loyalties of which I am still proud. The Union, for me, is a spent force.
The Scots should strike out into the world, and we should wish them well as a close friend and loved neighbour. If they don't, as @Pulpstar said, their beautiful, wonderful nation will forever be divided. If they do, few will want to return to what's left of the 'Union' within a decade or so. Pro-Independence in an Indy Scotland will by 2030 be running at 65-70%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
usual english creeping
it's quite repellent
odd that you dont blame the welsh
Why should I? It was the English votes that mattered.
ah yes the welsh dont count
however, the closeness of the vote suggest they do, as did the votes of scots and paddies who also voted out
but like all english lefties you only want to wallow in Uriah Heep style self loathing
George Orwell really did have it down to a tee
Nah - I do not loathe myself, my English family or English people generally. But the fact is that it was the votes of the English that mattered in the EU referendum.
Minority supported Scottish separatism, agitation and nationalism is the fault of the English, say embittered Remainers.
No, it's the fault of right wing English nationalists. It's not me who conflates the Conservative party with England.
Right wing English Nationalists in Sunderland. No wonder Labour's dying.
Southam is apparently incapable of recognising that Labour's stoking of Scottish nationalism in the 80s followed by a totally lopsided and partisan devolution settlement in the 90s might have contributed in some way to the situation we are now in.
You can take the boy out of North London, but you can't take the North London out of the boy.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
Even if you do manage to get rid of Corbyn, your party is still completely fucked because it's full of people who hate the idea of Englishness.
Maybe. I am intrigued by the idea of Englishness, though. I am very comfortable with my idea of what it is. But I am not sure it is the same idea of it that you might have. What I dislike is people claiming ownership of it. That's why I have always disliked nationalism, including the SNP variety.
And your bloody party gave the Scots devolution and fed the beast. What was it George Robertson claimed: "devolution will kill nationalism stone dead."
I'd like to think that Englishness is what we are as a result of being born or choosing to live in this country. As has been mentioned by others, the English condition is in large part a resentment towards other nations being pandered to whilst our own identity is sneered at by the likes of Emily Thornbury. We saw the FCO flying the Welsh flag on 1 March, will we see the St George's cross over it on 23 April? I wouldn't bet on it.
You see, those attitudes are exactly what I see as the opposite of Englishness. I am often told by my American clients that I am "very English" (I am actually very polite in real life, believe it or not). I couldn't care less about the stuff you mention. I think Englishness is about being polite, having a fondness for cosiness, an aversion to extremes, being open and neighbourly and moaning about rain while loving the wonderful verdant landscapes it creates. I have never once noticed nor considered the perceived inequitability of flags borne on the FCO.
Mr. Observer, we have most MPs in Parliament too...
Mr. Divvie, yes. I never said otherwise. I said the English had no votes in the establishment of Holyrood, which we didn't, because it was determined by a referendum of Scots.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% er Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots somes state.
I no longer consider myself a British patriot. That endeat 65-70%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
usual english creeping
it's quite repellent
odd that you dont blame the welsh
Why should I? It was the English votes that mattered.
ah yes the welsh dont count
however, the closeness of the vote suggest they do, as did the votes of scots and paddies who also voted out
but like all english lefties you only want to wallow in Uriah Heep style self loathing
George Orwell really did have it down to a tee
Nah - I do not loathe myself, my English family or English people generally. But the fact is that it was the votes of the English that mattered in the EU referendum.
no it was the votes of british citizens that mattered.
Mr. Observer, we have most MPs in Parliament too...
Mr. Divvie, yes. I never said otherwise. I said the English had no votes in the establishment of Holyrood, which we didn't, because it was determined by a referendum of Scots.
Mr. Alistair, if the Scots had not voted for Holyrood, Scottish devolution would not have occurred. That was the decision-making vote. Dancing on the head of a pin doesn't alter that fact.
Mr. Bojabob, so, because your side lost a vote you no longer love a country that previously you did?
That's rather sad. Sadder still that you feel as much (or more) loyalty to foreigners than your own people.
Mr. Nabavi, indeed, and I wish those who keep raising stupid little regional assemblies in England would learn that lesson and not make an even worse error of judgement.
Although a centrist in political terms I'm an atheist and oppose the idea of an hereditary head of state.a patriot I would have to subscribe to "God Save the Queen" so in all honesty I can't consider myself a patriot either - the concept has pretty much been appropriated by English right -wingers in the UK.
Mr. Bojabob, so, because your side lost a vote you no longer love a country that previously you did?
That's rather sad. Sadder still that you feel as much (or more) loyalty to foreigners than your own people.
Mr. Nabavi, indeed, and I wish those who keep raising stupid little regional assemblies in England would learn that lesson and not make an even worse error of judgement.
Although a centrist in political terms I'm an atheist and oppose the idea of an hereditary head of state.a patriot I would have to subscribe to "God Save the Queen" so in all honesty I can't consider myself a patriot either - the concept has pretty much been appropriated by English right -wingers in the UK.
Monarchism is a right-wing thing. Personally I avoid calling Britain the "UK". The UK is a political regime. Britain is a country. Calling Britain "the UK" is like calling France "the fifth Republic". I am English and British but I am not a "UK-er", other than that's the monarchist crap that's written on my passport.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
Even if you do manage to get rid of Corbyn, your party is still completely fucked because it's full of people who hate the idea of Englishness.
Maybe. I am intrigued by the idea of Englishness, though. I am very comfortable with my idea of what it is. But I am not sure it is the same idea of it that you might have. What I dislike is people claiming ownership of it. That's why I have always disliked nationalism, including the SNP variety.
And your bloody party gave the Scots devolution and fed the beast. What was it George Robertson claimed: "devolution will kill nationalism stone dead."
I'd like to think that Englishness is what we are as a result of being born or choosing to live in this country. As has been mentioned by others, the English condition is in large part a resentment towards other nations being pandered to whilst our own identity is sneered at by the likes of Emily Thornbury. We saw the FCO flying the Welsh flag on 1 March, will we see the St George's cross over it on 23 April? I wouldn't bet on it.
You see, those attitudes are exactly what I see as the opposite of Englishness. I am often told by my American clients that I am "very English" (I am actually very polite in real life, believe it or not). I couldn't care less about the stuff you mention. I think Englishness is about being polite, having a fondness for cosiness, an aversion to extremes, being open and neighbourly and moaning about rain while loving the wonderful verdant landscapes it creates. I have never once noticed nor considered the perceived inequitability of flags borne on the FCO.
Basically your definition of Englishness is pretending not to have a nationality. The reason that Thornberry incident was so toxic was because it showed her to be a snob.
The flag stuff doesn't bother me - I'm more concerned about the asymmetry of devolution and public spending in the United Kingdom - but I get that identity does matter to others and I'm happy to support them.
And whilst I'm not working, if anybody's interest in English history has been piqued, I can strongly recommend a few books. A Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England, by Ian Mortimer, is a very engaging look at everyday life, mostly around the 14th century.
In chronological order, some good biographies are: The Greatest Knight: The Remarkable Life of William Marshal, by Thomas Asbridge A Great and Terrible King: Edward I and the Forging of Britain, by Marc Morris The Greatest Traitor: The Life of Sir Roger Mortimer, by Ian Mortimer The Perfect King: The Life of Edward III, by Ian Mortimer
I really should get myself another medieval history at some point. When I've finished the three books on my to-read pile. And if I have the time. And money.
They even have the unionists thinking and talking in separatist language, and they've turned devolution into agitation.
That's pretty impressive for the side that lost by eleven points.
Cameron gave them everything they needed to keep on fighting the morning after the referendum result was announced. And just about everything that has happened since has played into the SNP's hands.
The SNP have thrived due to perceptions of inadequacy with Labour and treachery with the coalition-forming Liberal Democrats. This plus the longstanding emnity towards the Tories fractured the winning Remain vote.
The key to me though is that both their formidable election successes have come at a time when the Scottish left was in disarray yet the 2014 referendum result seemingly guaranteed membership of the United Kingdom "for a generation" so the SNP could not pursue their main objective. A part of their vote was given to them whilst they were being curbed.
Quite what the real SNP vote is with independence as a live, rather than subdued, issue remains to be seen.
I strongly suspect that it's lower than the percentages achieved in 2014, 2015 and 2016.
Err doesn't 2011 answer that question?
Yes, it may well be.
SNP 2011: 902,000 SNP 2015: 1,454,000 SNP 2016: 1,016,000
I see polls (Yougov) telling me anything up to a third of 2015 SNP voters don't actually want independence and a minimum of 16% from 2016.
It's as if there are a few hundred thousand Scottish Margaret Beckett's who thought there would be no harm voting for Jezza/SNP only for the law of unintended consequences to kick in.
In that context, and with Brexit negotiations in play, I can understand why May would be willing to agree a 2021 referendum as it provides an opportunity to unwind these votes.
I can also see why Sturgeon might like this date. The Indy planning last time hadn't addressed certain issues. A long lead in would give no excuse for not being prepared this time.
Seems pretty simple to me: there will be no independence referendum this side of 2020. But when one happens, May has given the SNP even more material to play with. Sturgeon has 45% er Unionists will not be around to cast their votes next time).
Same old arguments, eh?
May bad The Union is breaking apart
Meanwhile, in the real world, the only people whinging are the SNP and the bitter Remainers who are cheering her on for some masochistic reason that few of us British patriots can understand.
They want two New Swedens. An independent Scotland led by the SNP and a United Ireland led by Sinn Fein.
Nah - unlike so-called British patriots somes state.
I no longer consider myself a British patriot. That endeat 65-70%.
I want the Union to survive, but cannot see how it can long-term. I don't blame Scots for wanting out. Right wing English nationalism is not attractive, conciliatory or collaborative. Maybe a Scandinavia style set-up is the way to go.
usual english creeping
it's quite repellent
odd that you dont blame the welsh
Why should I? It was the English votes that mattered.
ah yes the welsh dont count
however, the closeness of the vote suggest they do, as did the votes of scots and paddies who also voted out
but like all english lefties you only want to wallow in Uriah Heep style self loathing
George Orwell really did have it down to a tee
Nah - I do not loathe myself, my English family or English people generally. But the fact is that it was the votes of the English that mattered in the EU referendum.
no it was the votes of british citizens that mattered.
Comments
Doesn't sound so big when you phrase it that way.
The Balkanisation of Britain is a catastrophe.
However there is little doubt that circumstances have changed dramatically as BREXITeers told us many times they would. It's a crock of ....
And I don't like it one bit.
It's all on their heads. Nobody else.
Referendums are not enough. They have to boot them out of government.
Brexit or not, indyref1 didn't settle anything.
That's rather sad. Sadder still that you feel as much (or more) loyalty to foreigners than your own people.
Mr. Nabavi, indeed, and I wish those who keep raising stupid little regional assemblies in England would learn that lesson and not make an even worse error of judgement.
Personally it doesn't bother me if Scotland goes independent and would be happy for the vote to be before A50 is triggered. But trying to blame the English for the actions of the SNP is ridiculous.
However, Sturgeon's real aim given her prevarication and incoherence on policy appears to have been to whip up some anti-English sentiment ahead of the local elections. If it was, mission accomplished.
If it were me, I would have called her bluff and held the referendum on the same day, blaming Sturgeon's xenophobia for it. That would have destroyed Scottish independence and the SNP itself in one fell swoop if polling is to be believed. But May is not by nature aggressive or given to bold moves.
In the words of the Wedding Present:
"Oh well that's fine,
I don't care,
Any more,
Nobody's twisting your arm,
Here's the key,
There's the door."
https://twitter.com/AngrySalmond/status/841603169775943680
it's quite repellent
odd that you dont blame the welsh
If May is forced into agreeing a referendum before May 2020, then expect her to engineer a GE before the referendum date.
That, I believe, was the hoped-for effect. It has succeeded. Why complain that the SNP are approaching their longed-for destination?
They are, as everybody points out, superlative politicians, able to run rings round the innocent English.
Agreed. And actually that's a neat way of framing it, as I mentioned to @WilliamGlenn upthread.
No, you can't.
1) Encouraging anti-English bigotry for electoral benefit in Scotland and Wales
2) Creating Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish parliaments without a corresponding English parliament
3) Allowing unlimited and unprepared for immigration into deprived areas whilst shouting "British Jobs For British Workers"
It implies no recognition of how close the vote was overall, and the fact that Scotland and England voted different ways.
There is no sense of reasonable compromise, and that really does risk breaking up the UK.
Let's see whether any senior Unionist politician susses that they need a vision to improve the Union. Last time they left it until a few days before the referendum and promised the Scottish government more financial control. They played the "Oh? Is that what's happening this week? Well let's chuck the kilted freemasons some dosh and they'll be happy" card. They couldn't see further than the ends of their noses and they still can't. They don't even understand what the Union is. They think it's only a political and financial structure.
Frankly if only the idiots had asked me, I could have given them some good advice.
There actually is a good plan available to strengthen the Union. I'm not going to discuss it here, but I'll contribute to rolling it out in the months to come.
General comment: it's amazing how the English are being blamed [by some] for events in Scotland, when the English had no votes in the establishment of devolved political entities, no votes in Holyrood elections and no votes in the past (or future) referendum on Scottish independence.
Every human has the tribal instinct. It's very funny that people like you think you're immune, when in reality you just have different dividing lines.
On the day May became PM I reiterated that she should invoke A50 immediately and announce our exit date as 31st December 2018. The UK required clarity. Further she should have told Sturgeon that she accepted the situation had decisively changed and recognized the SNP mandate for another referendum that could take place in the Spring of 2018.
Instead we have had dither and a complete clusterf*ck.
I'd like to think that Englishness is what we are as a result of being born or choosing to live in this country. As has been mentioned by others, the English condition is in large part a resentment towards other nations being pandered to whilst our own identity is sneered at by the likes of Emily Thornbury. We saw the FCO flying the Welsh flag on 1 March, will we see the St George's cross over it on 23 April? I wouldn't bet on it.
Mr. Stopper, indeed.
Since the talk is all of manifestos & mandates, the devolution proposals were clearly stated in Labour's 1997 manifesto for which the 'English' voted for in a landslide.
My Gaelic-speaking neighbour, a Unionist Leave voter - a lovely lady who is in her 80s and who rarely says negative things to me about people - tells me she feels like punching Sturgeon in the face and strangling her whenever she sees her come on to the TV screen.
Now that leaves me with a dilemma. Clearly they are in breach of two aspects of the TUCA 1992 - failing to maintain a current register, and failing to ballot on a merger. However, the ATL are refusing to hear any complaint. Should I complain to the certification officer (who seems a toothless tool of the TUC, quite frankly) or just let it go and switch to the NASUWT? Incidentally I will be switching anyway. I can't stay with a Union that's repeatedly lied to me.
Any thoughts or suggestions would be gratefully received, because I'm livid at the way they are behaving (and the new Union will be a monster that will be bad in every imaginable way) but I really could do without the hassle of a formal complaint.
That Nicola would have forgotten all about Scottish independence if only we'd voted Remain?
Well at least those who are a quarter/eighth/sixteenth scottish.
The Tories could have proposed an English parliament, they could now. But they don't. I'd support it. I am all for an imaginative, wide-ranging constitutional convention and have said that on here many, many times.
however, the closeness of the vote suggest they do, as did the votes of scots and paddies who also voted out
but like all english lefties you only want to wallow in Uriah Heep style self loathing
George Orwell really did have it down to a tee
You see, those attitudes are exactly what I see as the opposite of Englishness. I am often told by my American clients that I am "very English" (I am actually very polite in real life, believe it or not). I couldn't care less about the stuff you mention. I think Englishness is about being polite, having a fondness for cosiness, an aversion to extremes, being open and neighbourly and moaning about rain while loving the wonderful verdant landscapes it creates. I have never once noticed nor considered the perceived inequitability of flags borne on the FCO.
Mr. Divvie, yes. I never said otherwise. I said the English had no votes in the establishment of Holyrood, which we didn't, because it was determined by a referendum of Scots.
all were equal, thats what a country is about
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kingdom-Asunder-Bloody-Crown-Trilogy-ebook/dp/B01N8UF799/
It's like British politics, but with fewer votes and more murdering.
It's a view.
Edited extra bit: for clarity, the Mr. T in question is Olly, not Sean.
The flag stuff doesn't bother me - I'm more concerned about the asymmetry of devolution and public spending in the United Kingdom - but I get that identity does matter to others and I'm happy to support them.
A Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England, by Ian Mortimer, is a very engaging look at everyday life, mostly around the 14th century.
In chronological order, some good biographies are:
The Greatest Knight: The Remarkable Life of William Marshal, by Thomas Asbridge
A Great and Terrible King: Edward I and the Forging of Britain, by Marc Morris
The Greatest Traitor: The Life of Sir Roger Mortimer, by Ian Mortimer
The Perfect King: The Life of Edward III, by Ian Mortimer
I really should get myself another medieval history at some point. When I've finished the three books on my to-read pile. And if I have the time. And money.
SNP 2011: 902,000
SNP 2015: 1,454,000
SNP 2016: 1,016,000
I see polls (Yougov) telling me anything up to a third of 2015 SNP voters don't actually want independence and a minimum of 16% from 2016.
It's as if there are a few hundred thousand Scottish Margaret Beckett's who thought there would be no harm voting for Jezza/SNP only for the law of unintended consequences to kick in.
In that context, and with Brexit negotiations in play, I can understand why May would be willing to agree a 2021 referendum as it provides an opportunity to unwind these votes.
I can also see why Sturgeon might like this date. The Indy planning last time hadn't addressed certain issues. A long lead in would give no excuse for not being prepared this time.