@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless. If you want to understand why confidence has taken a battering, understand that.
We could excuse such unhinged rantings because of your personal circumstances. But you were spouting this elitist nonsense many months ago.
I don't mind an elitist anti-Leave view, but I expect some new analysis or insight with interesting points of view and possible courses of action. That's what pb is famed for.
Saying, 'I was right, you are all idiots.. I told you so, pillocks etc.', is just boring.
To be fair it's pretty much what you have said about a number of 'Remainers' myself included.
@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless.
I object to that, I happen to think I have some charm.
Indeed you are ! What about clueless, feckless, and visionless ? :-)
I think leaving the EU was a mistake, in direct economic terms, but also psychological terms because Leavers' rejection of globalisation, however understandable, makes it harder for the UK to find its way in the world. Nevertheless I am fascinated by how the huge mess will resolve itself, if indeed it will, and for that you have to hear the views of all sides of the argument.
I'll plead guilty to occasional fecklessness. But obviously, consider myself charming and clueful . I'm not sure I necessarily have to have a vision though. That's a bit of a burden for an ordinary mortal.
If we wanted to do a biased compare and contrast with EU economies Spain would be last on the list. It's practically German these days. Best Q2 economic growth in Europe iirc.
Italy is the sick man of Europe. Everybody looks good next to her.
@ThreeQuidder It's hard to have confidence in a country that has allowed itself to be persuaded into a course of action by demagogues and nutjobs. The reaction is natural.
The road back is going to be hard and expensive. Meanwhile, the Leavers will never accept their responsibility for the damage that they have done.
Oh dear. Get over yourself. You lost.
Now you have two courses of action open to you:
(1) Work for and argue for the best possible Leave (2) Sit on the sidelines, carping and moaning, hoping against hope that it will be a disaster just so that you can be proved right.
Don't be a (2).
You can believe Leave was a mistake and still try to make the best of it. In fact, we're unlikely to make the best of it if we don't recognise its downsides. See frothing on here about Carney and BoE's decisions today.
I am boring even myself about Brexit. From the point of view of someone who voted Remain, we rejected our best choice - to stay in the EU. This means all the other choices are relatively poor, but we do still have choices and it is important that make the best of the hand we have and limit the damage as much as we can.
I would make another couple of points.
Very few people voted Leave expecting any real cost to their choice. If the government goes for a minimum change option they will reduce that cost. What people are prepared to pay to get a particular level of separation needs to be tested. "Brexit means Brexit and it will be a success" is a meaningless soundbite.
My other point is that the Government and Theresa May in particular aren't showing a lot of tenderness towards those that wanted to stay in the EU and who, after all, make up half the population.
I agree. I think May's problem is that she knows that what is best for the country economically - to be inside the single market - is horrible for her politically as things stand. There is almost certainly a single market majority in the UK, but in the Commons there are enough hardline Brexit Tory MPs to cause her constant headaches if that's what she embraces. The problem is that for as long as uncertainty remains business, consumer and investor confidence will be dented. Something has to give. An early general election surely beckons.
@Casino_Royale Your opinion of me is noted with indifference.
I see that you have no answer to the broader point, which is that we are now all paying through the nose for you to realise your fantasy. But there is no price tag which would make you conclude that it wasn't worth it.
Wrong, on both counts.
FWIW these are confidence indicators, not economic reality, and the bank still thinks we can avoid recession.
I think you would rather be proved right than avoid economic turbulence.
It also assumes that everything would be okay if we'd voted to remain. Our public finances and economy in general is in a complete mess thanks to the idiots running the treasury and the BoE.
Prior to brexit unemployment was down to 4.9%, wage growth was 2% above inflation, GDP growth was accelerating and the deficit was coming down.
Plus a 7% current account deficit and massive boom in welfare with stagnant GDP per capita.
GDP per capita was up every year since 2009 - $38,000 to $41,000 so hardly stagnant.
Current account deficit more of a problem, although not clear that it was an immediate issue.
GDP per capita compared to pre-crash levels was stagnant. Don't try and stack the deck.
Yes, recessions destroy GDP by definition. The contention was that we were having a poor recovery and were about to slip into recession anyway - something demonstrably false.
It took from 2009-2014, around five years, for GDP per capita to catch up to the pre-crash peak. Compared to 3 years for nominal GDP. Our recovery wasn't great, many people have been pointing this out for a long time, it was one of the reasons the bank held down rates for so long. The UK economy never achieved escape velocity from 2009-2015 or we would have seen rates rise.
@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless.
I object to that, I happen to think I have some charm.
Indeed you are ! What about clueless, feckless, and visionless ?
I think leaving the EU was a mistake, in direct economic terms, but also psychological terms because Leavers' rejection of globalisation, however understandable, makes it harder for the UK to find its way in the world. Nevertheless I am fascinated by how the huge mess will resolve itself, if indeed it will, and for that you have to hear the views of all sides of the argument.
Surely Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world, rather than sticking to the narrow, over-regulated, protectionist customs union that is the EU.
@ThreeQuidder It's hard to have confidence in a country that has allowed itself to be persuaded into a course of action by demagogues and nutjobs. The reaction is natural.
The road back is going to be hard and expensive. Meanwhile, the Leavers will never accept their responsibility for the damage that they have done.
Oh dear. Get over yourself. You lost.
Now you have two courses of action open to you:
(1) Work for and argue for the best possible Leave (2) Sit on the sidelines, carping and moaning, hoping against hope that it will be a disaster just so that you can be proved right.
Don't be a (2).
You can believe Leave was a mistake and still try to make the best of it. In fact, we're unlikely to make the best of it if we don't recognise its downsides. See frothing on here about Carney and BoE's decisions today.
I am boring even myself about Brexit. From the point of view of someone who voted Remain, we rejected our best choice - to stay in the EU. This means all the other choices are relatively poor, but we do still have choices and it is important that make the best of the hand we have and limit the damage as much as we can.
I would make another couple of points.
Very few people voted Leave expecting any real cost to their choice. If the government goes for a minimum change option they will reduce that cost. What people are prepared to pay to get a particular level of separation needs to be tested. "Brexit means Brexit and it will be a success" is a meaningless soundbite.
My other point is that the Government and Theresa May in particular aren't showing a lot of tenderness towards those that wanted to stay in the EU and who, after all, make up half the population.
I agree. I think May's problem is that she knows that what is best for the country economically - to be inside the single market - is horrible for her politically as things stand. There is almost certainly a single market majority in the UK, but in the Commons there are enough hardline Brexit Tory MPs to cause her constant headaches if that's what she embraces. The problem is that for as long as uncertainty remains business, consumer and investor confidence will be dented. Something has to give. An early general election surely beckons.
May has enough moderate Labour MPs supporting the UK staying in the single market to get it through Parliament, so she can ignore hard BREXIT backing Tories without the need for an election. May also does not want an early election electing more UKIP MPs on an anti free movement platform
Thanks for that forecast from Peston in Jan 2016. "Mark Carney said that in the event the UK left the EU, or looked as though it would leave, the interest rates we pay here in the UK - what he called in City jargon "the risk premium attached to UK assets - could rise."
How come the media at the press conference did not pursue the Governor on his duff advice?
Thanks for that forecast from Peston in Jan 2016. "Mark Carney said that in the event the UK left the EU, or looked as though it would leave, the interest rates we pay here in the UK - what he called in City jargon "the risk premium attached to UK assets - could rise."
How come the media at the press conference did not pursue the Governor on his duff advice?
Investment grade UK corporate spreads are below pre-referendum levels...
Prior to Brexit we were warned the effect of Brexit would force the Bank of England to look at interest rate rises. Today the rate was cut. People in the REMAIN camp were misleading us.
"(Bank of England (2016).) Brexit Risk – Implications for Economies and Markets, Citi (2016) commented: “…we see risks that sterling weakness in a Brexit scenario might trigger a surge in inflation expectations that pressures the MPC to hike rates significantly 2-3 years ahead to reaffirm their commitment to economic stability even amidst economic weakness and heightened uncertainty.”"
@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless.
I object to that, I happen to think I have some charm.
Indeed you are ! What about clueless, feckless, and visionless ? :-)
I think leaving the EU was a mistake, in direct economic terms, but also psychological terms because Leavers' rejection of globalisation, however understandable, makes it harder for the UK to find its way in the world. Nevertheless I am fascinated by how the huge mess will resolve itself, if indeed it will, and for that you have to hear the views of all sides of the argument.
I'll plead guilty to occasional fecklessness. But obviously, consider myself charming and clueful . I'm not sure I necessarily have to have a vision though. That's a bit of a burden for an ordinary mortal.
If we wanted to do a biased compare and contrast with EU economies Spain would be last on the list. It's practically German these days. Best Q2 economic growth in Europe iirc.
Italy is the sick man of Europe. Everybody looks good next to her.
Indeed - when I think I've only been here 8 years it's remarkable how well the country has responded to my urgings
@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless.
I object to that, I happen to think I have some charm.
Indeed you are ! What about clueless, feckless, and visionless ?
I think leaving the EU was a mistake, in direct economic terms, but also psychological terms because Leavers' rejection of globalisation, however understandable, makes it harder for the UK to find its way in the world. Nevertheless I am fascinated by how the huge mess will resolve itself, if indeed it will, and for that you have to hear the views of all sides of the argument.
Surely Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world, rather than sticking to the narrow, over-regulated, protectionist customs union that is the EU.
I wouldn't bother engaging with these clowns, if I were you, freeborn John.
@ThreeQuidder It's hard to have confidence in a country that has allowed itself to be persuaded into a course of action by demagogues and nutjobs. The reaction is natural.
The road back is going to be hard and expensive. Meanwhile, the Leavers will never accept their responsibility for the damage that they have done.
Oh dear. Get over yourself. You lost.
Now you have two courses of action open to you:
(1) Work for and argue for the best possible Leave (2) Sit on the sidelines, carping and moaning, hoping against hope that it will be a disaster just so that you can be proved right.
Don't be a (2).
You can believe Leave was a mistake and still try to make the best of it. In fact, we're unlikely to make the best of it if we don't recognise its downsides. See frothing on here about Carney and BoE's decisions today.
I am boring even myself about Brexit. From the point of view of someone who voted Remain, we rejected our best choice - to stay in the EU. This means all the other choices are relatively poor, but we do still have choices and it is important that make the best of the hand we have and limit the damage as much as we can.
I would make another couple of points.
Very few people voted Leave expecting any real cost to their choice. If the government goes for a minimum change option they will reduce that cost. What people are prepared to pay to get a particular level of separation needs to be tested. "Brexit means Brexit and it will be a success" is a meaningless soundbite.
My other point is that the Government and Theresa May in particular aren't showing a lot of tenderness towards those that wanted to stay in the EU and who, after all, make up half the population.
I agree. I think May's problem is that she knows that what is best for the e problem is that for as long as uncertainty remains business, consumer and investor confidence will be dented. Something has to give. An early general election surely beckons.
May has enough moderate Labour MPs supporting the UK staying in the single market to get it through Parliament, so she can ignore hard BREXIT backing Tories without the need for an election. May also does not want an early election electing more UKIP MPs on an anti free movement platform
May can get single market through Commons, but right wing Tories will never forgive or forget and have the potential to cause her constant problems with the slim majority she has.
@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless.
I object to that, I happen to think I have some charm.
Indeed you are ! What about clueless, feckless, and visionless ?
I think leaving the EU was a mistake, in direct economic terms, but also psychological terms because Leavers' rejection of globalisation, however understandable, makes it harder for the UK to find its way in the world. Nevertheless I am fascinated by how the huge mess will resolve itself, if indeed it will, and for that you have to hear the views of all sides of the argument.
Surely Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world, rather than sticking to the narrow, over-regulated, protectionist customs union that is the EU.
Thanks. At the risk of over-analysing your reply, I am not sure most Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world. Some do and are well represented on this forum.
In terms of free trade, seven out of our ten main trading partners are in the EU (one - Switzerland - is associated with it). We currently trade freely with those eight countries. We will trade much less freely when we're outside the EU. The remaining two - the US and China - are HIGHLY protectionist and that won't change on Brexit
@ThreeQuidder It's hard to have confidence in a country that has allowed itself to be persuaded into a course of action by demagogues and nutjobs. The reaction is natural.
The road back is going to be hard and expensive. Meanwhile, the Leavers will never accept their responsibility for the damage that they have done.
You can believe Leave was a mistake and still try to make the best of it. In fact, we're unlikely to make the best of it if we don't recognise its downsides. See frothing on here about Carney and BoE's decisions today.
I am boring even myself about Brexit. From the point of view of someone who voted Remain, we rejected our best choice - to stay in the EU. This means all the other choices are relatively poor, but we do still have choices and it is important that make the best of the hand we have and limit the damage as much as we can.
I would make another couple of points.
Very few people voted Leave expecting any real cost to their choice. If the government goes for a minimum change option they will reduce that cost. What people are prepared to pay to get a particular level of separation needs to be tested. "Brexit means Brexit and it will be a success" is a meaningless soundbite.
My other point is that the Government and Theresa May in particular aren't showing a lot of tenderness towards those that wanted to stay in the EU and who, after all, make up half the population.
I agree. I think May's problem is that she knows that what is best for the e problem is that for as long as uncertainty remains business, consumer and investor confidence will be dented. Something has to give. An early general election surely beckons.
May has enough moderate Labour MPs supporting the UK staying in the single market to get it through Parliament, so she can ignore hard BREXIT backing Tories without the need for an election. May also does not want an early election electing more UKIP MPs on an anti free movement platform
May can get single market through Commons, but right wing Tories will never forgive or forget and have the potential to cause her constant problems with the slim majority she has.
It'll be like groundhog day with Cash, Redwood, Lee et al ranting and raving - which is the only reason any of them are still MPs.
@ThreeQuidder It's hard to have confidence in a country that has allowed itself to be persuaded into a course of action by demagogues and nutjobs. The reaction is natural.
The road back is going to be hard and expensive. Meanwhile, the Leavers will never accept their responsibility for the damage that they have done.
Oh dear. Get over yourself. You lost.
Now you have two courses of action open to you:
(1) Work for and argue for the best possible Leave (2) Sit on the sidelines, carping and moaning, hoping against hope that it will be a disaster just so that you can be proved right.
Don't be a (2).
You can believe Leave was a mistake and still try to make the best of it. In fact, we're unlikely to make the best of it if we don't recognise its downsides. See frothing on here about Carney and BoE's decisions today.
I am boring even myself about Brexit. From the point of view of someone who voted Remain, we rejected our best choice - to stay in Very few people voted Leave expecting any real cost to their choice. If the government goes for a minimum change option they will reduce that cost. What people are prepared to pay to get a particular level of separation needs to be tested. "Brexit means Brexit and it will be a success" is a meaningless soundbite.
My other point is that the Government and Theresa May in particular aren't showing a lot of tenderness towards those that wanted to stay in the EU and who, after all, make up half the population.
I agree. I think May's problem is that she knows that what is best for the e problem is that for as long as uncertainty remains business, consumer and investor confidence will be dented. Something has to give. An early general election surely beckons.
May has enough moderate Labour MPs supporting the UK staying in the single market to get it through Parliament, so she can ignore hard BREXIT backing Tories without the need for an election. May also does not want an early election electing more UKIP MPs on an anti free movement platform
May can get single market through Commons, but right wing Tories will never forgive or forget and have the potential to cause her constant problems with the slim majority she has.
May can tell them to sod off. She won not Leadsom and has a comfortable poll lead. If they don't like it they can join UKIP!
@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless.
I object to that, I happen to think I have some charm.
Indeed you are ! What about clueless, feckless, and visionless ? :-)
I think leaving the EU was a mistake, in direct economic terms, but also psychological terms because Leavers' rejection of globalisation, however understandable, makes it harder for the UK to find its way in the world. Nevertheless I am fascinated by how the huge mess will resolve itself, if indeed it will, and for that you have to hear the views of all sides of the argument.
I'll plead guilty to occasional fecklessness. But obviously, consider myself charming and clueful . I'm not sure I necessarily have to have a vision though. That's a bit of a burden for an ordinary mortal.
If we wanted to do a biased compare and contrast with EU economies Spain would be last on the list. It's practically German these days. Best Q2 economic growth in Europe iirc.
Italy is the sick man of Europe. Everybody looks good next to her.
Indeed - when I think I've only been here 8 years it's remarkable how well the country has responded to my urgings
Spain is a great example of the positives from the EZ. Her productivity is closing on German levels.
Perversely, it's one of the reasons I'm broadly neutral on the EU economically - there's no correlation between economic performance and EU/EZ membership.
Germany does well, duh. Spain and Ireland are going gangbusters, France is meh, Portugal not so good, while Italy and Greece are being crucified, albeit for different reasons.
'Prior to Brexit we were warned the effect of Brexit would force the Bank of England to look at interest rate rises. Today the rate was cut. People in the REMAIN camp were misleading us.'
Yup, another Remain lie being outed.
Still I'm sure a 0.25% rate cut is going to get millions of additional consumers out spending plus a surge in investment now nailed on..
In terms of free trade, seven out of our ten main trading partners are in the EU (one - Switzerland - is associated with it). We currently trade freely with those eight countries. We will trade much less freely when we're outside the EU.
I wonder what the PMIs of the USA would have looked like six weeks after the Emancipation Proclamation. And what conclusions we would draw about the merits of the Proclamation if we knew, either way.
@ThreeQuidder It's hard to have confidence in a country that has allowed itself to be persuaded into a course of action by demagogues and nutjobs. The reaction is natural.
The road back is going to be hard and expensive. Meanwhile, the Leavers will never accept their responsibility for the damage that they have done.
Oh dear. Get over yourself. You lost.
Now you have two courses of action open to you:
(1) Work for and argue for the best possible Leave (2) Sit on the sidelines, carping and moaning, hoping against hope that it will be a disaster just so that you can be proved right.
Don't be a (2).
You can believe Leave was a mistake and still try to make the best of it. In fact, we're unlikely to make the best of it if we don't recognise its downsides. See frothing on here about Carney and BoE's decisions today.
I am boring even myself about Brexit. From the point of view of someone who voted Remain, we rejected our best choice - to stay in Very few people voted Leave expecting any real cost to their choice. If the government goes for a minimum change option they will reduce that cost. What people are prepared to pay to get a particular level of separation needs to be tested. "Brexit means Brexit and it will be a success" is a meaningless soundbite.
My other point is that the Government and Theresa May in particular aren't showing a lot of tenderness towards those that wanted to stay in the EU and who, after all, make up half the population.
I agree. I think May's problem is that she knows that what is best for the e problem is that for as long as uncertainty remains business, consumer and investor confidence will be dented. Something has to give. An early general election surely beckons.
May has enough moderate Labour MPs supporting the UK staying in the single market to get it through Parliament, so she can ignore hard BREXIT backing Tories without the need for an election. May also does not want an early election electing more UKIP MPs on an anti free movement platform
May can get single market through Commons, but right wing Tories will never forgive or forget and have the potential to cause her constant problems with the slim majority she has.
May can tell them to sod off. She won not Leadsom and has a comfortable poll lead. If they don't like it they can join UKIP!
@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless.
I object to that, I happen to think I have some charm.
Indeed you are ! What about clueless, feckless, and visionless ?
I think leaving the EU was a mistake, in direct economic terms, but also psychological terms because Leavers' rejection of globalisation, however understandable, makes it harder for the UK to find its way in the world. Nevertheless I am fascinated by how the huge mess will resolve itself, if indeed it will, and for that you have to hear the views of all sides of the argument.
Surely Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world, rather than sticking to the narrow, over-regulated, protectionist customs union that is the EU.
Thanks. At the risk of over-analysing your reply, I am not sure most Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world. Some do and are well represented on this forum.
In terms of free trade, seven out of our ten main trading partners are in the EU (one - Switzerland - is associated with it). We currently trade freely with those eight countries. We will trade much less freely when we're outside the EU. The remaining two - the US and China - are HIGHLY protectionist and that won't change on Brexit
Isn't that the point? In your desperation to defend the EU you seem to have missed it. There are vast underdeveloped markets which the UK can develop trade ties with outside of the EU.
In terms of free trade, seven out of our ten main trading partners are in the EU (one - Switzerland - is associated with it). We currently trade freely with those eight countries. We will trade much less freely when we're outside the EU.
[Citation needed]...
Just look at the ONS's overseas trade statistics. If Leavers (such as myself) start arguing about easily verifiable facts, its not Remainers who look daft.
I wonder what the PMIs of the USA would have looked like six weeks after the Emancipation Proclamation. And what conclusions we would draw about the merits of the Proclamation if we knew, either way.
In terms of free trade, seven out of our ten main trading partners are in the EU (one - Switzerland - is associated with it). We currently trade freely with those eight countries. We will trade much less freely when we're outside the EU.
[Citation needed]...
OK, Correction: When we are outside the single market, if we are outside it. By definition.
@ThreeQuidder It's hard to have confidence in a country that has allowed itself to be persuaded into a course of action by demagogues and nutjobs. The reaction is natural.
The road back is going to be hard and expensive. Meanwhile, the Leavers will never accept their responsibility for the damage that they have done.
Oh dear. Get over yourself. You lost.
Now you have two courses of action open to you:
(1) Work for and argue for the best possible Leave (2) Sit on the sidelines, carping and moaning, hoping against hope that it will be a disaster just so that you can be proved right.
Don't be a (2).
You can believe Leave was a mistake and still try to make the best of it. In fact, we're unlikely to make the best of it if we don't recognise its downsides. See frothing on here about Carney and BoE's decisions today.
I am boring even myself about Brexit. From the point of view of someone who voted Remain, we rejected our best choice - to stay in the EU. This means all the other choices are relatively poor, but we do still have choices and it is important that make the best of the hand we have and limit the damage as much as we can.
I would make another couple of points.
Very few people voted Leave expecting any real cost to their choice. If the government goes for a minimum change option they will reduce that cost. What people are prepared to pay to get a particular level of separation needs to be tested. "Brexit means Brexit and it will be a success" is a meaningless soundbite.
My other point is that the Government and Theresa May in particular aren't showing a lot of tenderness towards those that wanted to stay in the EU and who, after all, make up half the population.
I agree. I think May's problem is that she knows that what is best for the e problem is that for as long as uncertainty remains business, consumer and investor confidence will be dented. Something has to give. An early general election surely beckons.
May has enough moderate Labour MPs supporting the UK staying in the single market to get it through Parliament, so she can ignore hard BREXIT backing Tories without the need for an election. May also does not want an early election electing more UKIP MPs on an anti free movement platform
May can get single market through Commons, but right wing Tories will never forgive or forget and have the potential to cause her constant problems with the slim majority she has.
Once that is done she will call an election and cash in on the 42% poll rating.
@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless.
I object to that, I happen to think I have some charm.
Indeed you are ! What about clueless, feckless, and visionless ? :-)
I think leaving the EU was a mistake, in direct economic terms, but also psychological terms because Leavers' rejection of globalisation, however understandable, makes it harder for the UK to find its way in the world. Nevertheless I am fascinated by how the huge mess will resolve itself, if indeed it will, and for that you have to hear the views of all sides of the argument.
I'll plead guilty to occasional fecklessness. But obviously, consider myself charming and clueful . I'm not sure I necessarily have to have a vision though. That's a bit of a burden for an ordinary mortal.
If we wanted to do a biased compare and contrast with EU economies Spain would be last on the list. It's practically German these days. Best Q2 economic growth in Europe iirc.
Italy is the sick man of Europe. Everybody looks good next to her.
I expect I'm going to get a letter from Santander pretty soon about the 3% interest rate on their accoubt being cut.
I think that was expected anyway - here in Spain we get it up to €15000 and zero bank charges. Oh and did I mention 325 sunny days a year with coffee, orange juice and doughnuts in front of the sea for €1.50
What a shame your childish and petulant behaviour is still unchanged 6 weeks later.
I had hoped your time off (albeit for deeply unpleasant reasons) would have provided you with some needed perspective.
We had about a fortnight of financial turbulence, following the vote on 23rd June, which has now subsided.
Yeah, I just thought we'd all moved on from the point scoring, finger pointing and early stages of grief, now, and we're moving into acceptance now with a focus on what happens next/should happen next.
Clearly, I was mistaken.
I find it incredibly depressing how some people are openly hoping, both on PB and elsewhere, for the UK to fall to bits just so that they can virtue signal their IN vote.
Well of course the game isn't just hoping the country falls to bits so they can be proved right, it's also hoping the country falls to bits so the voters can have an opportunity to "reconsider" their Leave vote once the "disaster" of their decision has brought them to their senses...
I wonder what the PMIs of the USA would have looked like six weeks after the Emancipation Proclamation. And what conclusions we would draw about the merits of the Proclamation if we knew, either way.
@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless.
I object to that, I happen to think I have some charm.
Indeed you are ! What about clueless, feckless, and visionless ?
I think leaving the EU was a mistake, in direct economic terms, but also psychological terms because Leavers' rejection of globalisation, however understandable, makes it harder for the UK to find its way in the world. Nevertheless I am fascinated by how the huge mess will resolve itself, if indeed it will, and for that you have to hear the views of all sides of the argument.
Surely Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world, rather than sticking to the narrow, over-regulated, protectionist customs union that is the EU.
Thanks. At the risk of over-analysing your reply, I am not sure most Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world. Some do and are well represented on this forum.
In terms of free trade, seven out of our ten main trading partners are in the EU (one - Switzerland - is associated with it). We currently trade freely with those eight countries. We will trade much less freely when we're outside the EU. The remaining two - the US and China - are HIGHLY protectionist and that won't change on Brexit
Isn't that the point? In your desperation to defend the EU you seem to have missed it. There are vast underdeveloped markets which the UK can develop trade ties with outside of the EU.
Indeed. There are vast underdeveloped markets which the UK can develop trade ties with INSIDE the EU. It makes no difference. The only difference that REALLY counts is that we will be outside our main trading market whereas we were previously inside it.
@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless.
I object to that, I happen to think I have some charm.
Indeed you are ! What about clueless, feckless, and visionless ? :-)
I think leaving the EU was a mistake, in direct economic terms, but also psychological terms because Leavers' rejection of globalisation, however understandable, makes it harder for the UK to find its way in the world. Nevertheless I am fascinated by how the huge mess will resolve itself, if indeed it will, and for that you have to hear the views of all sides of the argument.
I'll plead guilty to occasional fecklessness. But obviously, consider myself charming and clueful . I'm not sure I necessarily have to have a vision though. That's a bit of a burden for an ordinary mortal.
If we wanted to do a biased compare and contrast with EU economies Spain would be last on the list. It's practically German these days. Best Q2 economic growth in Europe iirc.
Italy is the sick man of Europe. Everybody looks good next to her.
Apart from Greece
Greece is a relative minnow. Italy was the world's fourth largest economy as recently as 1991. She's similar to the UK in that there's a prosperous core with a 2nd world hinterland.
@ThreeQuidder It's hard to have confidence in a country that has allowed itself to be persuaded into a course of action by demagogues and nutjobs. The reaction is natural.
The road back is going to be hard and expensive. Meanwhile, the Leavers will never accept their responsibility for the damage that they have done.
Oh dear. Get over yourself. You lost.
Now you have two courses of action open to you:
(1) Work for and argue for the best possible Leave (2) Sit on the sidelines, carping and moaning, hoping against hope that it will be a disaster just so that you can be proved right.
Don't be a (2).
You can believe Leave was a mistake and still try to make the best of it. In fact, we're unlikely to make the best of it if we don't recognise its downsides. See frothing on here about Carney and BoE's decisions today.
I am boring even myself about Brexit. From the point of view of someone who voted Remain, we rejected our My other point is that the Government and Theresa May in particular aren't showing a lot of tenderness towards those that wanted to stay in the EU and who, after all, make up half the population.
I agree. I think May's problem is that she knows that what is best for the e problem is that for as long as uncertainty remains business, consumer and investor confidence will be dented. Something has to give. An early general election surely beckons.
May has enough moderate Labour MPs supporting the UK staying in the single market to get it through Parliament, so she can ignore hard BREXIT backing Tories
May can get single market through Commons, but right wing Tories will never forgive or forget and have the potential to cause her constant problems with the slim majority she has.
May can tell them to sod off. She won not Leadsom and has a comfortable poll lead. If they don't like it they can join UKIP!
Not sure how that will help!
Not designed to. Labour is unelectable, so unlike Major with his bastards May has nothing to fear by reading the riot act to rebels and even kicking them out of the party if needed. Cash and Rosindell and Rees Mogg and IDS etc would be happier with the Kippers anyway or whichever party emerges from them
Anyone who rules out an Islamic extremist motivation behind this mornings attack.in London is premature.
The Met is being very clear to direct people to look at mental health as the cause - which makes me suspicious.
We are clearly not being told everything.
Or could actually be mental health issues......
You can more than one cause of a thing, you know. The fact that someone has mental health issues doesn't preclude them from being influenced by an ideology, of whatever kind, or criminality.
In terms of free trade, seven out of our ten main trading partners are in the EU (one - Switzerland - is associated with it). We currently trade freely with those eight countries. We will trade much less freely when we're outside the EU.
[Citation needed]...
OK, Correction: When we are outside the single market, if we are outside it. By definition.
I wonder what the PMIs of the USA would have looked like six weeks after the Emancipation Proclamation. And what conclusions we would draw about the merits of the Proclamation if we knew, either way.
Are you really comparing the EU to slavery?
I so little regard the EU as akin to slavery, that I voted to stay in it. I am saying that it is gibberish to think that macropolitical decisions should be assessed on noise in the financial data six weeks out.
Think about the PMIs six weeks after the Declaration of Independence if you are happier with that.
Anyone who rules out an Islamic extremist motivation behind this mornings attack.in London is premature.
The Met is being very clear to direct people to look at mental health as the cause - which makes me suspicious.
We are clearly not being told everything.
Or could actually be mental health issues......
You can more than one cause of a thing, you know. The fact that someone has mental health issues doesn't preclude them from being influenced by an ideology, of whatever kind, or criminality.
I know. But I don't get the assumption that there is a cover up by some posters on here.
@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless.
I object to that, I happen to think I have some charm.
Indeed you are ! What about clueless, feckless, and visionless ?
I think leaving the EU was a mistake, in direct economic terms, but also psychological terms because Leavers' rejection of globalisation, however understandable, makes it harder for the UK to find its way in the world. Nevertheless I am fascinated by how the huge mess will resolve itself, if indeed it will, and for that you have to hear the views of all sides of the argument.
Surely Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world, rather than sticking to the narrow, over-regulated, protectionist customs union that is the EU.
Thanks. At the risk of over-analysing your reply, I am not sure most Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world. Some do and are well represented on this forum.
In terms of free trade, seven out of our ten main trading partners are in the EU (one - Switzerland - is associated with it). We currently trade freely with those eight countries. We will trade much less freely when we're outside the EU. The remaining two - the US and China - are HIGHLY protectionist and that won't change on Brexit
Isn't that the point? In your desperation to defend the EU you seem to have missed it. There are vast underdeveloped markets which the UK can develop trade ties with outside of the EU.
Indeed. There are vast underdeveloped markets which the UK can develop trade ties with INSIDE the EU. It makes no difference. The only difference that REALLY counts is that we will be outside our main trading market whereas we were previously inside it.
We've been trying that for 40 years and it hasn't worked, our EU trade is down from a peak of 60% to 44% and falling. The rest of the world is growing and they want to buy our goods and services. The EU isn't and doesn't.
Anyone who rules out an Islamic extremist motivation behind this mornings attack.in London is premature.
The Met is being very clear to direct people to look at mental health as the cause - which makes me suspicious.
We are clearly not being told everything.
Or could actually be mental health issues......
You can more than one cause of a thing, you know. The fact that someone has mental health issues doesn't preclude them from being influenced by an ideology, of whatever kind, or criminality.
Absolutely.
No-one grabs a knife and starts stabbing people in the street as a result of a rational mind.
I can appreciate the authorities not wanting to start a panic - but we are not stupid. Trying to use misdirection to avoid scrutiny of the real story will just create bad feeling.
Anyone who rules out an Islamic extremist motivation behind this mornings attack.in London is premature.
The Met is being very clear to direct people to look at mental health as the cause - which makes me suspicious.
We are clearly not being told everything.
Or could actually be mental health issues......
Then name him. It's been 13hrs since the attack. They didn't fanny about like this over Jo Cox - he was identified as a lone nutter within a few hours.
Interesting policy by Corbyn today on providing free universal childcare. Could be a very popular policy with middle England, not that he has any idea how to pay for it.
@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless.
I object to that, I happen to think I have some charm.
Indeed you are ! What about clueless, feckless, and visionless ?
I think leaving the EU was a mistake, in direct economic terms, but also psychological terms because Leavers' rejection of globalisation, however understandable, makes it harder for the UK to find its way in the world. Nevertheless I am fascinated by how the huge mess will resolve itself, if indeed it will, and for that you have to hear the views of all sides of the argument.
Surely Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world, rather than sticking to the narrow, over-regulated, protectionist customs union that is the EU.
Thanks. At the risk of over-analysing your reply, I am not sure most Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world. Some do and are well represented on this forum.
In terms of free trade, seven out of our ten main trading partners are in the EU (one - Switzerland - is associated with it). We currently trade freely with those eight countries. We will trade much less freely when we're outside the EU. The remaining two - the US and China - are HIGHLY protectionist and that won't change on Brexit
Isn't that the point? In your desperation to defend the EU you seem to have missed it. There are vast underdeveloped markets which the UK can develop trade ties with outside of the EU.
Indeed. There are vast underdeveloped markets which the UK can develop trade ties with INSIDE the EU. It makes no difference. The only difference that REALLY counts is that we will be outside our main trading market whereas we were previously inside it.
We've been trying that for 40 years and it hasn't worked, our EU trade is down from a peak of 60% to 44% and falling. The rest of the world is growing and they want to buy our goods and services. The EU isn't and doesn't.
The industrialisation of China seems like a perverse reason to leave the EU.
I wonder what the PMIs of the USA would have looked like six weeks after the Emancipation Proclamation. And what conclusions we would draw about the merits of the Proclamation if we knew, either way.
Are you really comparing the EU to slavery?
Nutjob alert!!!!!
I thought you claimed to have been the headmaster of a school at some stage, which makes it a bit sad to have to tell you to grow up.
@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless.
I object to that, I happen to think I have some charm.
Indeed you are ! What about clueless, feckless, and visionless ?
I think leaving the EU was a mistake, in direct economic terms, but also psychological terms because Leavers' rejection of globalisation, however understandable, makes it harder for the UK to find its way in the world. Nevertheless I am fascinated by how the huge mess will resolve itself, if indeed it will, and for that you have to hear the views of all sides of the argument.
Surely Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world, rather than sticking to the narrow, over-regulated, protectionist customs union that is the EU.
Thanks. At the risk of over-analysing your reply, I am not sure most Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world. Some do and are well represented on this forum.
In terms of free trade, seven out of our ten main trading partners are in the EU (one - Switzerland - is associated with it). We currently trade freely with those eight countries. We will trade much less freely when we're outside the EU. The remaining two - the US and China - are HIGHLY protectionist and that won't change on Brexit
Isn't that the point? In your desperation to defend the EU you seem to have missed it. There are vast underdeveloped markets which the UK can develop trade ties with outside of the EU.
Indeed. There are vast underdeveloped markets which the UK can develop trade ties with INSIDE the EU. It makes no difference. The only difference that REALLY counts is that we will be outside our main trading market whereas we were previously inside it.
We've been trying that for 40 years and it hasn't worked, our EU trade is down from a peak of 60% to 44% and falling. The rest of the world is growing and they want to buy our goods and services. The EU isn't and doesn't.
You can tell these people these things as often as you like Max, they are not interested in listening.
In fact, I'd go further and say at this juncture there is no point in engaging with self-describing REMAINEers at all.
@Peston: The 3-year cost of Brexit is 2.5 percentage points of lost GDP or national income, even with its exceptional stimulus, says Bank of England
I have never felt so in control. Bathed in the warm glow of Sovereignty
You worry about money you never had? My economic forecast was 3% a year if we had remained. Now you can feel even worse. I can come up with a bigger number if you're still feeling too glowy.
''Then name him. It's been 13hrs since the attack. They didn't fanny about like this over Jo Cox - he was identified as a lone nutter within a few hours. ''
And there was no mention of mental health issues there. Oh No. It was all the fault of 'the atmosphere created by Brexiteers. '
Interesting policy by Corbyn today on providing free universal childcare. Could be a very popular policy with middle England, not that he has any idea how to pay for it.
What about his plan to recruit 1 million people to build new infrastructure? I don't think we have 1 million unemployed builders and associated trades just looking for jobs.
So he wants to borrow £500bn to bring in more workers to work on white elephant projects.
The industrialisation of China seems like a perverse reason to leave the EU.
If the EU wants to put up trade barriers with the rest of the world and become insular then it probably is. Look at how desperate the Canadian, Japanese and Americans have become to get their trade deals signed with the EU before we leave, they know once we're out its all over for them.
I thought Osborne said we were going to lose 10% of GDP?
-2.5% of GDP over three years (with the prospect of getting our laws back, taking back our waters and being able to make our own trade deals with the world) Sounds a reasonable trade off to me?
''Then name him. It's been 13hrs since the attack. They didn't fanny about like this over Jo Cox - he was identified as a lone nutter within a few hours. ''
And there was no mention of mental health issues there. Oh No. It was all the fault of 'the atmosphere created by Brexiteers. '
Rank double standards from the establishment.
Dave in germany was also misreported as right wing extremist ala brevik. Certain media who when suits them says we don't speculate, were busy speculating.
I wonder what the PMIs of the USA would have looked like six weeks after the Emancipation Proclamation. And what conclusions we would draw about the merits of the Proclamation if we knew, either way.
Are you really comparing the EU to slavery?
Nutjob alert!!!!!
I thought you claimed to have been the headmaster of a school at some stage, which makes it a bit sad to have to tell you to grow up.
I voted remain btw.
Lol - so did I - and my past was a statement of fact. Believe it or not as you choose. Oh and you grow up!!
Interesting policy by Corbyn today on providing free universal childcare. Could be a very popular policy with middle England, not that he has any idea how to pay for it.
What about his plan to recruit 1 million people to build new infrastructure? I don't think we have 1 million unemployed builders and associated trades just looking for jobs.
So he wants to borrow £500bn to bring in more workers to work on white elephant projects.
The man is utterly mad.
I'm pretty certain there are wide parts of the construction trade that struggle to fill jobs already.
I wonder what the PMIs of the USA would have looked like six weeks after the Emancipation Proclamation. And what conclusions we would draw about the merits of the Proclamation if we knew, either way.
Are you really comparing the EU to slavery?
I so little regard the EU as akin to slavery, that I voted to stay in it. I am saying that it is gibberish to think that macropolitical decisions should be assessed on noise in the financial data six weeks out.
Think about the PMIs six weeks after the Declaration of Independence if you are happier with that.
To be honest, I'm ignoring all the economic indicators at the moment.
I'm waiting to see what the economic indicators show once we've got our Brexit deal sorted out.
I can see various hues of Brexit being implemented
@ThreeQuidder The best thing for the country right now is to take stock and carefully consider what comes next. Most of the vitriol is coming from Leavers panic-stricken that they have to think about what they actually want as opposed to what they vehemently don't want.
Whose "panic-stricken?
Certainly plenty of aggression and touchiness coming from certain Brexit quarters, very odd given that their cups should be overflowing as we look forward to the post EU era of unbounded freedom and prosperity!
Anyone who rules out an Islamic extremist motivation behind this mornings attack.in London is premature.
If it helps the investigation to temporarily mislead the media I am happy for this line to be pursued. But thanks for the hint.
My biggest concern is that the public aren't stupid and are increasingly mistrusting of the media and police.
When the chap shot his wife and daughter in Spalding - it was confirmed as domestic incident within 4hrs or so. Ditto the sex party bungalow shooting. We collectively assess the circumstances of an event and conclude what's most likely.
Spalding and Surrey Bungalow looked like domestic/drunken misadventures almost immediately. When the news won't tell us about the incident, don't ask for help finding witnesses, identify the suspects, release CCTV... we all smell cover-up/terrorism/Muslim related.
They have to look at their media operations - it's failing massively and every attempt to shut incidents down breeds exactly the wrong impression.
Interesting policy by Corbyn today on providing free universal childcare. Could be a very popular policy with middle England, not that he has any idea how to pay for it.
What about his plan to recruit 1 million people to build new infrastructure? I don't think we have 1 million unemployed builders and associated trades just looking for jobs.
So he wants to borrow £500bn to bring in more workers to work on white elephant projects.
The man is utterly mad.
I did some bag of the proverbial fag packet calculations. That £500 billion is 27% of current GDP, or about 28 years of UK economic growth assuming the state take grows to 50% (rather than the current 44%).
''Look at how desperate the Canadian, Japanese and Americans have become to get their trade deals signed with the EU before we leave, they know once we're out its all over for them. ''
Their best bet is to make us rich, as an example to the rest.
''Then name him. It's been 13hrs since the attack. They didn't fanny about like this over Jo Cox - he was identified as a lone nutter within a few hours. ''
And there was no mention of mental health issues there. Oh No. It was all the fault of 'the atmosphere created by Brexiteers. '
Rank double standards from the establishment.
Dave in germany was also misreported as right wing extremist ala brevik. Certain media who when suits them says we don't speculate, were busy speculating.
And there was the Swedish (I think) politician who lied about the ethnic background of the man who raped her.
There is some very twisted thinking going on.
Just tell the truth - we are adult enough to cope.
I wonder what the PMIs of the USA would have looked like six weeks after the Emancipation Proclamation. And what conclusions we would draw about the merits of the Proclamation if we knew, either way.
Are you really comparing the EU to slavery?
I so little regard the EU as akin to slavery, that I voted to stay in it. I am saying that it is gibberish to think that macropolitical decisions should be assessed on noise in the financial data six weeks out.
Think about the PMIs six weeks after the Declaration of Independence if you are happier with that.
To be honest, I'm ignoring all the economic indicators at the moment.
I'm waiting to see what the economic indicators show once we've got our Brexit deal sorted out.
I can see various hues of Brexit being implemented
''Then name him. It's been 13hrs since the attack. They didn't fanny about like this over Jo Cox - he was identified as a lone nutter within a few hours. ''
And there was no mention of mental health issues there. Oh No. It was all the fault of 'the atmosphere created by Brexiteers. '
Rank double standards from the establishment.
Dave in germany was also misreported as right wing extremist ala brevik. Certain media who when suits them says we don't speculate, were busy speculating.
I think we can be fairly sure this Norwegian from Somalia isn't called Erik Johansen....
@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless.
I object to that, I happen to think I have some charm.
Indeed you are ! What about clueless, feckless, and visionless ?
.
Surely Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world, rather than sticking to the narrow, over-regulated, protectionist customs union that is the EU.
Thanks. At the risk of over-analysing your reply, I am not sure most Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world. Some do and are well represented on this forum.
In terms of free trade, seven out of our ten main trading partners are in the EU (one - Switzerland - is associated with it). We currently trade freely with those eight countries. We will trade much less freely when we're outside the EU. The remaining two - the US and China - are HIGHLY protectionist and that won't change on Brexit
Isn't that the point? In your desperation to defend the EU you seem to have missed it. There are vast underdeveloped markets which the UK can develop trade ties with outside of the EU.
Indeed. There are vast underdeveloped markets which the UK can develop trade ties with INSIDE the EU. It makes no difference. The only difference that REALLY counts is that we will be outside our main trading market whereas we were previously inside it.
We've been trying that for 40 years and it hasn't worked, our EU trade is down from a peak of 60% to 44% and falling. The rest of the world is growing and they want to buy our goods and services. The EU isn't and doesn't.
You can tell these people these things as often as you like Max, they are not interested in listening.
In fact, I'd go further and say at this juncture there is no point in engaging with self-describing REMAINEers at all.
Better still ban them all and keep a beady eye out for any of them infiltrating their site - i'll keep a sharp eye out for 'Felix the sequel'
Any update on the claim the nutjob was wearing helmet / motorcycle leathers but no motorbike there (and reports of somebody speeding off on one)?
Not that I've seen - my wifi was down as this was breaking so didn't see the real-time tweets. That's left a huge gap in the immediacy. The British media are being very obedient. I feel the need to read alternative sources yet again.
This was Russell Sq FFS, not some provincial high st at 10pm.
''Then name him. It's been 13hrs since the attack. They didn't fanny about like this over Jo Cox - he was identified as a lone nutter within a few hours. ''
And there was no mention of mental health issues there. Oh No. It was all the fault of 'the atmosphere created by Brexiteers. '
Rank double standards from the establishment.
Dave in germany was also misreported as right wing extremist ala brevik. Certain media who when suits them says we don't speculate, were busy speculating.
I think we can be fairly sure this Norwegian from Somalia isn't called Erik Johansen....
I wonder what the PMIs of the USA would have looked like six weeks after the Emancipation Proclamation. And what conclusions we would draw about the merits of the Proclamation if we knew, either way.
Are you really comparing the EU to slavery?
I so little regard the EU as akin to slavery, that I voted to stay in it. I am saying that it is gibberish to think that macropolitical decisions should be assessed on noise in the financial data six weeks out.
Think about the PMIs six weeks after the Declaration of Independence if you are happier with that.
To be honest, I'm ignoring all the economic indicators at the moment.
I'm waiting to see what the economic indicators show once we've got our Brexit deal sorted out.
I can see various hues of Brexit being implemented
50 shades of Brexit
We may well be in for a spanking courtesy of Ms May
@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless.
I object to that, I happen to think I have some charm.
Indeed you are ! What about clueless, feckless, and visionless ?
.
Surely Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world, rather than sticking to the narrow, over-regulated, protectionist customs union that is the EU.
Thanks. At the risk of over-analysing your reply, I am not sure most Leavers are in favour of freely trading with the rest of the world. Some do and are well represented on this forum.
In terms of free trade, seven out of our ten main trading partners are in the EU (one - Switzerland - is associated with it). We currently trade freely with those eight countries. We will trade much less freely when we're outside the EU. The remaining two - the US and China - are HIGHLY protectionist and that won't change on Brexit
Isn't that the point? In your desperation to defend the EU you seem to have missed it. There are vast underdeveloped markets which the UK can develop trade ties with outside of the EU.
Indeed. There are vast underdeveloped markets which the UK can develop trade ties with INSIDE the EU. It makes no difference. The only difference that REALLY counts is that we will be outside our main trading market whereas we were previously inside it.
We've been trying that for 40 years and it hasn't worked, our EU trade is down from a peak of 60% to 44% and falling. The rest of the world is growing and they want to buy our goods and services. The EU isn't and doesn't.
You can tell these people these things as often as you like Max, they are not interested in listening.
In fact, I'd go further and say at this juncture there is no point in engaging with self-describing REMAINEers at all.
Better still ban them all and keep a beady eye out for any of them infiltrating their site - i'll keep a sharp eye out for 'Felix the sequel'
Stop. It's almost time for Innocent Abroad to come and have his regular weekly nervous breakdown about being herded into Right wing death camps. Let's not add fuel to the fire.
The industrialisation of China seems like a perverse reason to leave the EU.
If the EU wants to put up trade barriers with the rest of the world and become insular then it probably is. Look at how desperate the Canadian, Japanese and Americans have become to get their trade deals signed with the EU before we leave, they know once we're out its all over for them.
In the case of the Americans, it's also a reflection that neither Hilary nor Donald will be as pro free trade as Obama. They're trying to get get free trade in, using the lame duck congress, before the new President is in power.
In fact, I'd go further and say at this juncture there is no point in engaging with self-describing REMAINEers at all.
Is PB going to have a Brexit?
PB should Brexit and relocate to Pimlico. New visitors to PimlicoBetting would need a passport to access the site. Passport to PimlicoBetting. No freedom of movement from other sites.
''Then name him. It's been 13hrs since the attack. They didn't fanny about like this over Jo Cox - he was identified as a lone nutter within a few hours. ''
And there was no mention of mental health issues there. Oh No. It was all the fault of 'the atmosphere created by Brexiteers. '
Rank double standards from the establishment.
Dave in germany was also misreported as right wing extremist ala brevik. Certain media who when suits them says we don't speculate, were busy speculating.
The Munich shooting must be one of the oddest versions of a story the BBC has ever run with. Their ‘breaking news’ of the incorrect name of the youth, several hours after every other news outlet had reported it more accurately, was utterly bizarre.
To be honest, I'm ignoring all the economic indicators at the moment.
I'm waiting to see what the economic indicators show once we've got our Brexit deal sorted out.
I can see various hues of Brexit being implemented
As it should be. On the latter, this is something we've been kicking about lately.
Stay in the single market, migration linked to working status with an effective bar on low wage migration, stay in the passporting zone. In order to facilitate the free movement restrictions we stay in the EU foreign policy framework in to appease the Eastern bloc and the French who are looking very lonely without another great military power in the EU. EEA+.
I wonder what the PMIs of the USA would have looked like six weeks after the Emancipation Proclamation. And what conclusions we would draw about the merits of the Proclamation if we knew, either way.
Are you really comparing the EU to slavery?
I so little regard the EU as akin to slavery, that I voted to stay in it. I am saying that it is gibberish to think that macropolitical decisions should be assessed on noise in the financial data six weeks out.
Think about the PMIs six weeks after the Declaration of Independence if you are happier with that.
To be honest, I'm ignoring all the economic indicators at the moment.
I'm waiting to see what the economic indicators show once we've got our Brexit deal sorted out.
I can see various hues of Brexit being implemented
50 shades of Brexit
I got a 50 Shades of Grey reference into a thread header last year. So proud.
Lets not forgot the attempted abduction of a squaddie but "two men". It took 2 weeks to release the photofits, when there is no way they wouldn't have done them on the day.
The authorities / media just need to be honest & upfront. In this case, the original report at about 2am I think sounds like it was but now there is the no names etc etc etc stuff.
Interesting policy by Corbyn today on providing free universal childcare. Could be a very popular policy with middle England, not that he has any idea how to pay for it.
What about his plan to recruit 1 million people to build new infrastructure? I don't think we have 1 million unemployed builders and associated trades just looking for jobs.
So he wants to borrow £500bn to bring in more workers to work on white elephant projects.
The man is utterly mad.
I did some bag of the proverbial fag packet calculations. That £500 billion is 27% of current GDP, or about 28 years of UK economic growth assuming the state take grows to 50% (rather than the current 44%).
Given his love of all things Venezuelan, we would be heading to forced labour and mass starvation under a Corbyn administration - and he would be thinking he was going a great job of making his 'socialist' dreams come true.
@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless.
I object to that, I happen to think I have some charm.
Indeed you are ! What about clueless, feckless, and visionless ?
.
S In terms of free trade, seven out of our ten main trading partners are in the EU (one - Switzerland - is associated with it). We currently trade freely with those eight countries. We will trade much less freely when we're outside the EU. The remaining two - the US and China - are HIGHLY protectionist and that won't change on Brexit
Isn't that the point? In your desperation to defend the EU you seem to have missed it. There are vast underdeveloped markets which the UK can develop trade ties with outside of the EU.
Indeed. There are vast underdeveloped markets which the UK can develop trade ties with INSIDE the EU. It makes no difference. The only difference that REALLY counts is that we will be outside our main trading market whereas we were previously inside it.
We've been trying that for 40 years and it hasn't worked, our EU trade is down from a peak of 60% to 44% and falling. The rest of the world is growing and they want to buy our goods and services. The EU isn't and doesn't.
You can tell these people these things as often as you like Max, they are not interested in listening.
In fact, I'd go further and say at this juncture there is no point in engaging with self-describing REMAINEers at all.
Better still ban them all and keep a beady eye out for any of them infiltrating their site - i'll keep a sharp eye out for 'Felix the sequel'
Stop. It's almost time for Innocent Abroad to come and have his regular weekly nervous breakdown about being herded into Right wing death camps. Let's not add fuel to the fire.
Trouble is I'm a fairly right wing remainer so it's the death camp either way. Heigh ho.
''Then name him. It's been 13hrs since the attack. They didn't fanny about like this over Jo Cox - he was identified as a lone nutter within a few hours. ''
And there was no mention of mental health issues there. Oh No. It was all the fault of 'the atmosphere created by Brexiteers. '
Rank double standards from the establishment.
Dave in germany was also misreported as right wing extremist ala brevik. Certain media who when suits them says we don't speculate, were busy speculating.
The Munich shooting must be one of the oddest versions of a story the BBC has ever run with. Their ‘breaking news’ of the incorrect name of the youth, several hours after every other news outlet had reported it more accurately, was utterly bizarre.
They also misreported what the authorities said & also who said what between balcony man and dave, despite there being video & full transitions in the public domain.
I wonder what the PMIs of the USA would have looked like six weeks after the Emancipation Proclamation. And what conclusions we would draw about the merits of the Proclamation if we knew, either way.
Are you really comparing the EU to slavery?
I so little regard the EU as akin to slavery, that I voted to stay in it. I am saying that it is gibberish to think that macropolitical decisions should be assessed on noise in the financial data six weeks out.
Think about the PMIs six weeks after the Declaration of Independence if you are happier with that.
To be honest, I'm ignoring all the economic indicators at the moment.
I'm waiting to see what the economic indicators show once we've got our Brexit deal sorted out.
I can see various hues of Brexit being implemented
50 shades of Brexit
I got a 50 Shades of Grey reference into a thread header last year. So proud.
Are you still on your hols or have I lost the plot?
I run up about 3,500 tier points a year, which is a lot, but is a long way from Charles's GGL. To get GGL you need 5,000 which means you need to fly Club Class London to LA roughly every 10 days. That's a serious amount of flying.
Have they taken away the 3000 points two years running way of getting in? I used to have it when I was at Sony and doing return trips to Tokyo a couple of times a month. I'm trying to work my way up to lifetime gold status, but that's a lot of points away.
@ThreeQuidder I advised a simple cost-benefit analysis - Britain would be worse off culturally, morally and economically by following the lead of xenophobes, monomaniacs and nutjobs rather than remaining in the EU. So it is proving so far, as Leavers daily demonstrate that they are clueless, feckless, charmless and visionless.
I object to that, I happen to think I have some charm.
Indeed you are ! What about clueless, feckless, and visionless ? :-)
I think leaving the EU was a mistake, in direct economic terms, but also psychological terms because Leavers' rejection of globalisation, however understandable, makes it harder for the UK to find its way in the world. Nevertheless I am fascinated by how the huge mess will resolve itself, if indeed it will, and for that you have to hear the views of all sides of the argument.
I'll plead guilty to occasional fecklessness. But obviously, consider myself charming and clueful . I'm not sure I necessarily have to have a vision though. That's a bit of a burden for an ordinary mortal.
If we wanted to do a biased compare and contrast with EU economies Spain would be last on the list. It's practically German these days. Best Q2 economic growth in Europe iirc.
Italy is the sick man of Europe. Everybody looks good next to her.
Apart from Greece
Greece is a relative minnow. Italy was the world's fourth largest economy as recently as 1991. She's similar to the UK in that there's a prosperous core with a 2nd world hinterland.
Yes, Miland and Venice are still fine, it is Naples and Sicily which are the real problems
I wonder what the PMIs of the USA would have looked like six weeks after the Emancipation Proclamation. And what conclusions we would draw about the merits of the Proclamation if we knew, either way.
Are you really comparing the EU to slavery?
I so little regard the EU as akin to slavery, that I voted to stay in it. I am saying that it is gibberish to think that macropolitical decisions should be assessed on noise in the financial data six weeks out.
Think about the PMIs six weeks after the Declaration of Independence if you are happier with that.
To be honest, I'm ignoring all the economic indicators at the moment.
I'm waiting to see what the economic indicators show once we've got our Brexit deal sorted out.
I can see various hues of Brexit being implemented
50 shades of Brexit
I got a 50 Shades of Grey reference into a thread header last year. So proud.
Are you still on your hols or have I lost the plot?
I'm between holidays.
Suicide Squad tonight then head to the SouthWest tomorrow for a week.
Comments
http://tinyurl.com/zvz28jj
Italy is the sick man of Europe. Everybody looks good next to her.
"Mark Carney said that in the event the UK left the EU, or looked as though it would leave, the interest rates we pay here in the UK - what he called in City jargon "the risk premium attached to UK assets - could rise."
How come the media at the press conference did not pursue the Governor on his duff advice?
Surely Osborne MUST have known that the BoE would have to have reduced interest rates in the event of Brexit?
In terms of free trade, seven out of our ten main trading partners are in the EU (one - Switzerland - is associated with it). We currently trade freely with those eight countries. We will trade much less freely when we're outside the EU. The remaining two - the US and China - are HIGHLY protectionist and that won't change on Brexit
Perversely, it's one of the reasons I'm broadly neutral on the EU economically - there's no correlation between economic performance and EU/EZ membership.
Germany does well, duh. Spain and Ireland are going gangbusters, France is meh, Portugal not so good, while Italy and Greece are being crucified, albeit for different reasons.
'Prior to Brexit we were warned the effect of Brexit would force the Bank of England to look at interest rate rises. Today the rate was cut. People in the REMAIN camp were misleading us.'
Yup, another Remain lie being outed.
Still I'm sure a 0.25% rate cut is going to get millions of additional consumers out spending plus a surge in investment now nailed on..
We are clearly not being told everything.
Think about the PMIs six weeks after the Declaration of Independence if you are happier with that.
I have never felt so in control. Bathed in the warm glow of Sovereignty
No-one grabs a knife and starts stabbing people in the street as a result of a rational mind.
I can appreciate the authorities not wanting to start a panic - but we are not stupid. Trying to use misdirection to avoid scrutiny of the real story will just create bad feeling.
I voted remain btw.
In fact, I'd go further and say at this juncture there is no point in engaging with self-describing REMAINEers at all.
Economists trying to make pollsters look good.
And there was no mention of mental health issues there. Oh No. It was all the fault of 'the atmosphere created by Brexiteers. '
Rank double standards from the establishment.
So he wants to borrow £500bn to bring in more workers to work on white elephant projects.
The man is utterly mad.
I'm waiting to see what the economic indicators show once we've got our Brexit deal sorted out.
I can see various hues of Brexit being implemented
When the chap shot his wife and daughter in Spalding - it was confirmed as domestic incident within 4hrs or so. Ditto the sex party bungalow shooting. We collectively assess the circumstances of an event and conclude what's most likely.
Spalding and Surrey Bungalow looked like domestic/drunken misadventures almost immediately. When the news won't tell us about the incident, don't ask for help finding witnesses, identify the suspects, release CCTV... we all smell cover-up/terrorism/Muslim related.
They have to look at their media operations - it's failing massively and every attempt to shut incidents down breeds exactly the wrong impression.
Their best bet is to make us rich, as an example to the rest.
There is some very twisted thinking going on.
Just tell the truth - we are adult enough to cope.
This was Russell Sq FFS, not some provincial high st at 10pm.
Stay in the single market, migration linked to working status with an effective bar on low wage migration, stay in the passporting zone. In order to facilitate the free movement restrictions we stay in the EU foreign policy framework in to appease the Eastern bloc and the French who are looking very lonely without another great military power in the EU. EEA+.
The authorities / media just need to be honest & upfront. In this case, the original report at about 2am I think sounds like it was but now there is the no names etc etc etc stuff.
Suicide Squad tonight then head to the SouthWest tomorrow for a week.