I was going to make a long rambly post musing how the labour market will now unfurl with the reduction in the import of cheap labour and the decreasing use of tax credits. Plus the effect of this on the margins of the larger corporations that have been growing in the last decade in the UK who have mainly relied on low margin, high volume models and how their inability to just super charge this model for the foreseeable may actually help the working classes in the long term (but not the short).
But then Corbyn comes along and ruins it, because we may have seen the death of major political party for the first time in the country since the Liberals were gobbled up by Labour.
The trend is that manufacturing is going the way of farming. In China manufacturing is *loosing jobs*. This is because wages have risen, and automation is accelerating. In the US, it is now competitive with China to build highly automated factories vs their lower levels of automation.
Manufacturing will, in only a few years, require a tiny percentage of the work force - like agriculture. As with agriculture, there will be a number of highly paid jobs and some very poorly paid work (moving boxes around, cleaning). Not much in between.
This is how the Roman circuses descended from nobles sparring to bloody mass torture. We're no longer satisfied with hum-drum, everyday politics. We need more.
I want Theresa May to vault the HoC podium, cleave Corbyn from gullet to groin while screaming "THIS. IS SPARTA". That'd see me through to the weekend.
I feel like cleaving from gullet to groin in such a way would be considered unparliamentary conduct and the Speaker might wish to intervene - I believe tradition and convention are clear a formal motion to cleave would need to be submitted before any vaulting takes place, and ancient rules prohibit any vaulting if in a skirt or dress, so May will need to dress appropriately.
So I was on a dinner date with a 20 something Corbynista.
Good Lord.
She stunned you with her eloquence, intelligence, and sophisticated politics? There's bound to be some.
Yup, she even knew how AV works, she's a keeper
So you're divorced?
I'm sincerely sorry. That's a sad thing
PS I recommend 20-something Corbynites, I'm on my third in six months
They like submitting to the Patriarchy when it suits them
It's fine, happened last year, I've moved on.
These 20 year old Corbynistas don't seem to care about winning, they'd rather be ideologically pure than win.
What has happened to the ruthless party of Blair, Campbell, and Mandelson?
In my experience the young Corbynites don't expect to win (though they haven't ruled it out), they just want someone different and authentic with "integrity". They can be excused, because naivety
It's the older Corbynites who are simply stupid, politically. I have a great friend who is a massive Corbynite, she's smart and educated, quite a well known novelist, but she is utterly clueless politically. She thinks Corbyn can win, easily. As in: win a general election.
If I talk to her about the difficult maths of winning her eyes glaze over and she gets bored and says, "Well it shouldn't be like that, he's got integrity". (She simply ignores the ugly jihadist/IRA stuff. )
IT SHOULDN'T BE LIKE THAT. This is the Corbynite position. They imagine a world that SHOULD be, and then Corbyn wins. Idiots.
I presume you don't mention the last sentence until the break up stage...
This is how the Roman circuses descended from nobles sparring to bloody mass torture. We're no longer satisfied with hum-drum, everyday politics. We need more.
I want Theresa May to vault the HoC podium, cleave Corbyn from gullet to groin while screaming "THIS. IS SPARTA". That'd see me through to the weekend.
For the time being I'll settle for Justine Greening as CoE and collecting a few quid tomorrow afternoon.
Trump has another good line: 'Bernie Sanders endorsing Crooked Hillary Clinton is like Occupy Wall Street endorsing Goldman Sachs'
That is a very good line.
It's pretty much true. Sanders embraced Occupy. The Clintons embraced Wall Street - ever since Bill promised to do what Bush Senior refused to do. Which was repeal Glass-Steagall...
So I was on a dinner date with a 20 something Corbynista.
Good Lord.
She stunned you with her eloquence, intelligence, and sophisticated politics? There's bound to be some.
Yup, she even knew how AV works, she's a keeper
So you're divorced?
I'm sincerely sorry. That's a sad thing
PS I recommend 20-something Corbynites, I'm on my third in six months
They like submitting to the Patriarchy when it suits them
It's fine, happened last year, I've moved on.
These 20 year old Corbynistas don't seem to care about winning, they'd rather be ideologically pure than win.
What has happened to the ruthless party of Blair, Campbell, and Mandelson?
In my experience the young Corbynites don't expect to win (though they haven't ruled it out), they just want someone different and authentic with "integrity". They can be excused, because naivety
It's the older Corbynites who are simply stupid, politically. I have a great friend who is a massive Corbynite, she's smart and educated, quite a well known novelist, but she is utterly clueless politically. She thinks Corbyn can win, easily. As in: win a general election.
If I talk to her about the difficult maths of winning her eyes glaze over and she gets bored and says, "Well it shouldn't be like that, he's got integrity". (She simply ignores the ugly jihadist/IRA stuff. )
IT SHOULDN'T BE LIKE THAT. This is the Corbynite position. They imagine a world that SHOULD be, and then Corbyn wins. Idiots.
Mine's well educated too, it's very weird hearing someone tell you Ed Miliband was a right wing Blairite Tory
I was going to make a long rambly post musing how the labour market will now unfurl with the reduction in the import of cheap labour and the decreasing use of tax credits. Plus the effect of this on the margins of the larger corporations that have been growing in the last decade in the UK who have mainly relied on low margin, high volume models and how their inability to just super charge this model for the foreseeable may actually help the working classes in the long term (but not the short).
But then Corbyn comes along and ruins it, because we may have seen the death of major political party for the first time in the country since the Liberals were gobbled up by Labour.
The trend is that manufacturing is going the way of farming. In China manufacturing is *loosing jobs*. This is because wages have risen, and automation is accelerating. In the US, it is now competitive with China to build highly automated factories vs their lower levels of automation.
Manufacturing will, in only a few years, require a tiny percentage of the work force - like agriculture. As with agriculture, there will be a number of highly paid jobs and some very poorly paid work (moving boxes around, cleaning). Not much in between.
Good point, it is in the middle management that the jobs really have gone. Computerisation has removed the need for so many people shuffling paper and so many people to manage them.
This is how the Roman circuses descended from nobles sparring to bloody mass torture. We're no longer satisfied with hum-drum, everyday politics. We need more.
I want Theresa May to vault the HoC podium, cleave Corbyn from gullet to groin while screaming "THIS. IS SPARTA". That'd see me through to the weekend.
I feel like cleaving from gullet to groin in such a way would be considered unparliamentary conduct and the Speaker might wish to intervene - I believe tradition and convention are clear a formal motion to cleave would need to be submitted before any vaulting takes place, and ancient rules prohibit any vaulting if in a skirt or dress, so May will need to dress appropriately.
This is how the Roman circuses descended from nobles sparring to bloody mass torture. We're no longer satisfied with hum-drum, everyday politics. We need more.
I want Theresa May to vault the HoC podium, cleave Corbyn from gullet to groin while screaming "THIS. IS SPARTA". That'd see me through to the weekend.
For the time being I'll settle for Justine Greening as CoE and collecting a few quid tomorrow afternoon.
So I was on a dinner date with a 20 something Corbynista.
Good Lord.
She stunned you with her eloquence, intelligence, and sophisticated politics? There's bound to be some.
Yup, she even knew how AV works, she's a keeper
So you're divorced?
I'm sincerely sorry. That's a sad thing
PS I recommend 20-something Corbynites, I'm on my third in six months
They like submitting to the Patriarchy when it suits them
It's fine, happened last year, I've moved on.
These 20 year old Corbynistas don't seem to care about winning, they'd rather be ideologically pure than win.
What has happened to the ruthless party of Blair, Campbell, and Mandelson?
In my experience the young Corbynites don't expect to win (though they haven't ruled it out), they just want someone different and authentic with "integrity". They can be excused, because naivety
It's the older Corbynites who are simply stupid, politically. I have a great friend who is a massive Corbynite, she's smart and educated, quite a well known novelist, but she is utterly clueless politically. She thinks Corbyn can win, easily. As in: win a general election.
If I talk to her about the difficult maths of winning her eyes glaze over and she gets bored and says, "Well it shouldn't be like that, he's got integrity". (She simply ignores the ugly jihadist/IRA stuff. )
IT SHOULDN'T BE LIKE THAT. This is the Corbynite position. They imagine a world that SHOULD be, and then Corbyn wins. Idiots.
IYou have it spot on. It's very cult like behaviour. So much is projected on JC.
The LOTO is the leader of the party with the most seats in the commons
Their argument is - presumably - without whips Labour isn't a "party" but a group of independents that were elected under a common manifesto.
Tenuous at best
Why wouldn't Corbyn just appoint his own whips?
It would take well over a hundred people resigning the whip (thus effectively defecting) to make SNP official opposition and even then essentially the SDPmk2 would be the official opposition.
It isn't a surprise. Scottish football is near semi-pro level.
On Sat 23rd Celtic play the mighty Foxes!
Champions of England vs Champions of Scotland. I am almost tempted to go...
I hope your Foxes get relegated and the fairytale turns abruptly into a nightmare. A flash in the pan.
I supported Leicester in League One, and will support them in the Champions League. I suspect that I haven't seen the last relegation, but this is going to be another good year.
I was going to make a long rambly post musing how the labour market will now unfurl with the reduction in the import of cheap labour and the decreasing use of tax credits. Plus the effect of this on the margins of the larger corporations that have been growing in the last decade in the UK who have mainly relied on low margin, high volume models and how their inability to just super charge this model for the foreseeable may actually help the working classes in the long term (but not the short).
But then Corbyn comes along and ruins it, because we may have seen the death of major political party for the first time in the country since the Liberals were gobbled up by Labour.
The trend is that manufacturing is going the way of farming. In China manufacturing is *loosing jobs*. This is because wages have risen, and automation is accelerating. In the US, it is now competitive with China to build highly automated factories vs their lower levels of automation.
Manufacturing will, in only a few years, require a tiny percentage of the work force - like agriculture. As with agriculture, there will be a number of highly paid jobs and some very poorly paid work (moving boxes around, cleaning). Not much in between.
Good point, it is in the middle management that the jobs really have gone. Computerisation has removed the need for so many people shuffling paper and so many people to manage them.
As has better education with lower grades more able and expected to think for themselves not wait to be told what to do
With Labour my concern there's been all this crazy build up and yet, somehow, it'll return to relatively mundane normality before too long. I'm not sure I can go back to that, my political diet is now hardened to require proper red met political craziness.
If you take out the entire media, commentariat, blogs, geeks, NEC, PLP, CLP...who actually cares what's going on in the leadership battle for one of the political parties?
In all seriousness, it's probably 1m people at most. The rest? They tune out.
The only problem with that is UKIP itself - it is not an effective party at the "ground game". This is not me being rude about them. It is simply an observation of what has happened in the past.
Transforming UKIP into a party that can win parliamentary seats will take a very large amount of work. The question is who can lead the party in that direction?
Damned if I know. I am not even sure what direction the Party wants to go in. I think it has two wings one which looks to the Southern vote and one which looks to the Northern vote. Now that we are going to leave the EU the issue that tied the two wings together has gone. To prosper in the future I think UKIP has to move out from its comfort zone and become a multi-issue party of what we on this site, rather patronisingly, I think, refer to as the White Working Class.
I am not at all sure that UKIP is capable of having the debate that is needed to set their future direction, let alone choose a leader that could implement it.
I was going to make a long rambly post musing how the labour market will now unfurl with the reduction in the import of cheap labour and the decreasing use of tax credits. Plus the effect of this on the margins of the larger corporations that have been growing in the last decade in the UK who have mainly relied on low margin, high volume models and how their inability to just super charge this model for the foreseeable may actually help the working classes in the long term (but not the short).
But then Corbyn comes along and ruins it, because we may have seen the death of major political party for the first time in the country since the Liberals were gobbled up by Labour.
The trend is that manufacturing is going the way of farming. In China manufacturing is *loosing jobs*. This is because wages have risen, and automation is accelerating. In the US, it is now competitive with China to build highly automated factories vs their lower levels of automation.
Manufacturing will, in only a few years, require a tiny percentage of the work force - like agriculture. As with agriculture, there will be a number of highly paid jobs and some very poorly paid work (moving boxes around, cleaning). Not much in between.
Good point, it is in the middle management that the jobs really have gone. Computerisation has removed the need for so many people shuffling paper and so many people to manage them.
There was a good BBC Click a couple of weeks ago showing this in China. Where lots of factories have machines to do what 100s of people used to do, Foxconn have got rid of loads of people and they showed the Chinese equivalent of Amazon where they intend to basically have bugger all people in the whole warehouse (even the parcels getting loaded onto vans automatically).
The LOTO is the leader of the party with the most seats in the commons
Their argument is - presumably - without whips Labour isn't a "party" but a group of independents that were elected under a common manifesto.
Tenuous at best
Why wouldn't Corbyn just appoint his own whips?
The technical issue seems to be that you can't be a whip and on the front bench. And Corbyn hasn't even got enough people to fill the front bench at the moment.
This is how the Roman circuses descended from nobles sparring to bloody mass torture. We're no longer satisfied with hum-drum, everyday politics. We need more.
I want Theresa May to vault the HoC podium, cleave Corbyn from gullet to groin while screaming "THIS. IS SPARTA". That'd see me through to the weekend.
I feel like cleaving from gullet to groin in such a way would be considered unparliamentary conduct and the Speaker might wish to intervene - I believe tradition and convention are clear a formal motion to cleave would need to be submitted before any vaulting takes place, and ancient rules prohibit any vaulting if in a skirt or dress, so May will need to dress appropriately.
This is how the Roman circuses descended from nobles sparring to bloody mass torture. We're no longer satisfied with hum-drum, everyday politics. We need more.
I want Theresa May to vault the HoC podium, cleave Corbyn from gullet to groin while screaming "THIS. IS SPARTA". That'd see me through to the weekend.
I feel like cleaving from gullet to groin in such a way would be considered unparliamentary conduct and the Speaker might wish to intervene - I believe tradition and convention are clear a formal motion to cleave would need to be submitted before any vaulting takes place, and ancient rules prohibit any vaulting if in a skirt or dress, so May will need to dress appropriately.
The lines in front of the benches in the carpet that members cannot cross are there to stop them drawing their swords and doing that sort of thing. Tends to make a mess of the carpet.
This is how the Roman circuses descended from nobles sparring to bloody mass torture.
Er, it didn't exactly. Slaves were forced to fight at high-class funerals like some form of expiatory human sacrifice. Originally all games were funeral games, Caesar started divorcing them from their original purpose by putting on memorial games for his daughter, who had died some years previously, to curry favour with the mob.
This is how the Roman circuses descended from nobles sparring to bloody mass torture. We're no longer satisfied with hum-drum, everyday politics. We need more.
I want Theresa May to vault the HoC podium, cleave Corbyn from gullet to groin while screaming "THIS. IS SPARTA". That'd see me through to the weekend.
For the time being I'll settle for Justine Greening as CoE and collecting a few quid tomorrow afternoon.
Justine for CoE? Really? LOL!
I put £10 on Boris. Possibly not such a good idea.
On balance, when the dust settles, tonight may yet turn out to be a poor one for the Trots.
Keeping Corbyn off the ballot was always a long shot, and relied on some very poorly drafted rules notwithstanding the clear intention of Collins that the leader should always have significant support from the PLP.
By contrast, with the clear evidence that the balance of party opinion from existing members has moved against Corbyn, although not yet by quite enough, the six month freeze date et al has been the more significant change. The prospect of new joiners offsetting that move in opinion has been quashed.
Overall I think tonight has improved the chances of Corbyn being toppled, although the odds are still on him hanging on.
Contrived outrage in all honesty. It's quite normal. Labour routinely operates freeze dates for selections for the likes of local government elections. You can join and vote in leadership elections in due course, just don't join a few weeks before a leadership election for the purpose of influencing it.
Well, yes.....but this would hit someone who joined Labour in , say march or April, and actively helped labour in the Local Elections in May this year. They obviously didn't join "a few weeks before a leadership election for the purpose of influencing it", and actively helped the party - yet are excluded.
You can't just make things up as you go along! It's not a good look for a Party that wants to be trusted to uphold the rule of law.
This is how the Roman circuses descended from nobles sparring to bloody mass torture.
Er, it didn't exactly. Slaves were forced to fight at high-class funerals like some form of expiatory human sacrifice. Originally all games were funeral games, Caesar started divorcing them from their original purpose by putting on memorial games for his daughter, who had died some years previously, to curry favour with the mob.
I'm sorry to say my primary source was 'I, Claudius' . I stand corrected, thank you.
She does actually appear to be genuinely quick witted and funny. She has a tough challenge ahead of her now, insurmountable probably, but it will be interesting to watch.
On balance, when the dust settles, tonight may yet turn out to be a poor one for the Trots.
Keeping Corbyn off the ballot was always a long shot, and relied on some very poorly drafted rules notwithstanding the clear intention of Collins that the leader should always have significant support from the PLP.
By contrast, with the clear evidence that the balance of party opinion from existing members has moved against Corbyn, although not yet by quite enough, the six month freeze date et al has been the more significant change. The prospect of new joiners offsetting that move in opinion has been quashed.
Overall I think tonight has improved the chances of Corbyn being toppled, although the odds are still on him hanging on.
The new joiners can still deselect MPs though. Ms Eagle for one.
This is how the Roman circuses descended from nobles sparring to bloody mass torture. We're no longer satisfied with hum-drum, everyday politics. We need more.
I want Theresa May to vault the HoC podium, cleave Corbyn from gullet to groin while screaming "THIS. IS SPARTA". That'd see me through to the weekend.
For the time being I'll settle for Justine Greening as CoE and collecting a few quid tomorrow afternoon.
So I was on a dinner date with a 20 something Corbynista.
Good Lord.
She stunned you with her eloquence, intelligence, and sophisticated politics? There's bound to be some.
Yup, she even knew how AV works, she's a keeper
So you're divorced?
I'm sincerely sorry. That's a sad thing
PS I recommend 20-something Corbynites, I'm on my third in six months
They like submitting to the Patriarchy when it suits them
It's fine, happened last year, I've moved on.
These 20 year old Corbynistas don't seem to care about winning, they'd rather be ideologically pure than win.
What has happened to the ruthless party of Blair, Campbell, and Mandelson?
In my experience the young Corbynites don't expect to win (though they haven't ruled it out), they just want someone different and authentic with "integrity". They can be excused, because naivety
It's the older Corbynites who are simply stupid, politically. I have a great friend who is a massive Corbynite, she's smart and educated, quite a well known novelist, but she is utterly clueless politically. She thinks Corbyn can win, easily. As in: win a general election.
If I talk to her about the difficult maths of winning her eyes glaze over and she gets bored and says, "Well it shouldn't be like that, he's got integrity". (She simply ignores the ugly jihadist/IRA stuff. )
IT SHOULDN'T BE LIKE THAT. This is the Corbynite position. They imagine a world that SHOULD be, and then Corbyn wins. Idiots.
IYou have it spot on. It's very cult like behaviour. So much is projected on JC.
Yes. He's a blank canvas for a lot of dissatisfied people. He is Chauncey Gardner, as many on here noted a year back.
What they don't realise is that he represents a very OLD politics, and a nasty, dangerous kind of politics at that.
On the upside, imagine what a genuinely charismatic GOOD guy (or girl) could do, right now. A politician with charisma, and authenticity, and INTEGRITY. who had some great ideas. They would sweep the board. Let us pray.
I am, in my day job, a sociologist of religion. I have never experienced an atmosphere like that Party meeting anywhere before outside of conservative religious groups who are deeply convinced of the truth of their way of seeing the world. The fact of the growing Party membership was, as in any committed Evangelical group, taken as confirmation of the moral rectitude of the movement, with no interest shown in whether connections with the wider electorate were being made. Whilst there are individual supporters of Corbyn who remain courteous and thoughtful, the movement forming around him is, at its heart, a form of political puritanism, for which Corbyn is a model puritan leader. It is a movement of moral certainty, largely devoid of policy, fuelled by symbolic struggles against evil, treachery and compromise. If we recognise this, the current leadership contest increasingly looks like another dead end. One of the characteristics of a puritan movement is that its sense of moral mission trumps all. Corbynist puritans will not allow their sense of purpose to be thwarted by a leadership election defeat – even if that were to happen. They will continue to organise, try to take over the running of CLPs, de-select ‘disloyal’ MPs where they can, and carry forward the fight which is never ultimately about forming a government but overcoming their opponents. Trying to fight with puritans is ultimately self-defeating as it merely re-energises their sense of being engaged in a grand moral drama, struggling against forces of darkness within and beyond their movement. It is not defeatism but common sense now to initiate a clear split within the Party, even if this might mean letting go of the ‘Labour’ name. This is not a re-run of the 1980s, for what we are seeing is now not the equivalent of a split between an SDP and a gradually reforming Labour Party, but a split between the SDP and the Militant Tendency. We should not fear a significant division on the Left, because the Corbynist movement will, in time, turn in on itself as it finds new ‘traitors’ to blame for the electoral failures that will inevitably face them. There is a deep current in English cultural life that is antipathetic to puritan movements, with good historical reasons. We should trust those deep pragmatic sentiments in our national life, believe that a Corbynist movement left to itself will be banished to electoral obscurity, and take on the deeper challenge of ensuring that the one nation aspirations that Theresa May sought to lay claim to yesterday are genuinely realised as we enter this crucial period of national reconstruction.
On balance, when the dust settles, tonight may yet turn out to be a poor one for the Trots.
Keeping Corbyn off the ballot was always a long shot, and relied on some very poorly drafted rules notwithstanding the clear intention of Collins that the leader should always have significant support from the PLP.
By contrast, with the clear evidence that the balance of party opinion from existing members has moved against Corbyn, although not yet by quite enough, the six month freeze date et al has been the more significant change. The prospect of new joiners offsetting that move in opinion has been quashed.
Overall I think tonight has improved the chances of Corbyn being toppled, although the odds are still on him hanging on.
Lab really did need Leadsom and her gang of nutters. Would have made even Burnham seem an ok choice by comparison.
Instead the new PM has tacked left so the Lab middle ground has nowhere to go. I would still be very happy with a Stevie K or a Chuka or even Hilary god help us. But they remain unable to construct a sensible position that is to the left of what is nominally now a leftish-ish government.
With Labour my concern there's been all this crazy build up and yet, somehow, it'll return to relatively mundane normality before too long. I'm not sure I can go back to that, my political diet is now hardened to require proper red met political craziness.
If you take out the entire media, commentariat, blogs, geeks, NEC, PLP, CLP...who actually cares what's going on in the leadership battle for one of the political parties?
In all seriousness, it's probably 1m people at most. The rest? They tune out.
Who cares about what normal people are interested in? Normal people miss out on all the fun - when was the last time they got over excited by the swing to the LDs in the by-election in Neppleton Wentlyton?
So I was on a dinner date with a 20 something Corbynista.
Good Lord.
She stunned you with her eloquence, intelligence, and sophisticated politics? There's bound to be some.
Yup, she even knew how AV works, she's a keeper
So you're divorced?
I'm sincerely sorry. That's a sad thing
PS I recommend 20-something Corbynites, I'm on my third in six months
They like submitting to the Patriarchy when it suits them
It's fine, happened last year, I've moved on.
These 20 year old Corbynistas don't seem to care about winning, they'd rather be ideologically pure than win.
What has happened to the ruthless party of Blair, Campbell, and Mandelson?
In my experience the young Corbynites don't expect to win (though they haven't ruled it out), they just want someone different and authentic with "integrity". They can be excused, because naivety
It's the older Corbynites who are simply stupid, politically. I have a great friend who is a massive Corbynite, she's smart and educated, quite a well known novelist, but she is utterly clueless politically. She thinks Corbyn can win, easily. As in: win a general election.
If I talk to her about the difficult maths of winning her eyes glaze over and she gets bored and says, "Well it shouldn't be like that, he's got integrity". (She simply ignores the ugly jihadist/IRA stuff. )
IT SHOULDN'T BE LIKE THAT. This is the Corbynite position. They imagine a world that SHOULD be, and then Corbyn wins. Idiots.
IYou have it spot on. It's very cult like behaviour. So much is projected on JC.
Yes. He's a blank canvas for a lot of dissatisfied people. He is Chauncey Gardner, as many on here noted a year back.
What they don't realise is that he represents a very OLD politics, and a nasty, dangerous kind of politics at that.
On the upside, imagine what a genuinely charismatic GOOD guy (or girl) could do, right now. A politician with charisma, and authenticity, and INTEGRITY. who had some great ideas. They would sweep the board. Let us pray.
Now Robert about that earlier tweet.....but if true and wasn't on the agenda etc, there is going to be big trouble. It does make you wonder why Jezza left though, order of noodles arrived?
With Labour my concern there's been all this crazy build up and yet, somehow, it'll return to relatively mundane normality before too long. I'm not sure I can go back to that, my political diet is now hardened to require proper red met political craziness.
If you take out the entire media, commentariat, blogs, geeks, NEC, PLP, CLP...who actually cares what's going on in the leadership battle for one of the political parties?
In all seriousness, it's probably 1m people at most. The rest? They tune out.
Who cares about what normal people are interested in? Normal people miss out on all the fun - when was the last time they got over excited by the swing to the LDs in the by-election in Neppleton Wentlyton?
There is that, yes. Sorry, I had a moment; it must be the new Cons focus on governing for the whole nation.
I was going to make a long rambly post musing how the labour market will now unfurl with the reduction in the import of cheap labour and the decreasing use of tax credits. Plus the effect of this on the margins of the larger corporations that have been growing in the last decade in the UK who have mainly relied on low margin, high volume models and how their inability to just super charge this model for the foreseeable may actually help the working classes in the long term (but not the short).
But then Corbyn comes along and ruins it, because we may have seen the death of major political party for the first time in the country since the Liberals were gobbled up by Labour.
The trend is that manufacturing is going the way of farming. In China manufacturing is *loosing jobs*. This is because wages have risen, and automation is accelerating. In the US, it is now competitive with China to build highly automated factories vs their lower levels of automation.
Manufacturing will, in only a few years, require a tiny percentage of the work force - like agriculture. As with agriculture, there will be a number of highly paid jobs and some very poorly paid work (moving boxes around, cleaning). Not much in between.
Good point, it is in the middle management that the jobs really have gone. Computerisation has removed the need for so many people shuffling paper and so many people to manage them.
Secretaries have gone.
I stopped using one back in 1985. People could not understand how I could get things done so quickly.
What a different it would have been if Hugh Gaitskill and John Smith had not snuffed it at untimely moments...
Or if Brown had chosen to hold a general election in Autumn 2007, and lost, with Cameron and Osborne signed up to Labour's borrowing plans as we entered 2008....
On balance, when the dust settles, tonight may yet turn out to be a poor one for the Trots.
Keeping Corbyn off the ballot was always a long shot, and relied on some very poorly drafted rules notwithstanding the clear intention of Collins that the leader should always have significant support from the PLP.
By contrast, with the clear evidence that the balance of party opinion from existing members has moved against Corbyn, although not yet by quite enough, the six month freeze date et al has been the more significant change. The prospect of new joiners offsetting that move in opinion has been quashed.
Overall I think tonight has improved the chances of Corbyn being toppled, although the odds are still on him hanging on.
Lab really did need Leadsom and her gang of nutters. Would have made even Burnham seem an ok choice by comparison.
Instead the new PM has tacked left so the Lab middle ground has nowhere to go. I would still be very happy with a Stevie K or a Chuka or even Hilary god help us. But they remain unable to construct a sensible position that is to the left of what is nominally now a leftish-ish government.
Leadsom would have been able to appeal to the 7/10 Labour constituencies that voted Leave.
Momentum Manchester If you don't want to pay the £25 fee there is no better time than now to join an affiliated union. Doing so will give you the right to vote
Stephen Bush @stephenkb 6m6 minutes ago This shuts out: a) every lapsed Burnham, Cooper and Kendall voter and b) anyone who might have wanted to "Save Labour".
Stephen Bush @stephenkb 8m8 minutes ago People saying this makes it harder for Corbyn to win are out of their trees.
Hodges is delusional.
When did he last get ANYTHING about UK politics right?
He's as reliable as John McTernan. When he says something is going to happen, lay it.
I actually think both statements are true. Stephen Bush is correct in that Corbyn will win this, the PLP are happy because they haven't realised what the makeup of the party membership was back in January (hint Corbyn supporters had arrived, others were letting / had let their membership lapse)..
As with everything we've seen from Labour its so near and yet so far... - the comedy continues...
We know what the makeup of the Labour party thought a couple of weeks ago, it's been polled.
Eagle was only 10% behind and some of the members will not be eligible. Add to that the polling that suggests Union members think Corbyn is crap and that the contender might be someone better than Eagle. Still a chance?
IMO Corbyn now has to stand on a ticket of mandatory reselection for all MPs.
Do you mean if he wins the contest Labour then should go into a full party reselection process? All MP's....?
Holy crap!
Yes. Corbyn has lost the support of MPs of all political views. Left, Right, Blairite, Brownite, soft left, Blue Labour etc. Obviously all of these people are just 'wrong'. Consequently, the Labour party will become uniformly Corbynite. Unlike any other political party, Labour will cease to be a board church of views. Only Corbynism will be tolerated. It was always going to be this way as many Corbynites I've spoken to cannot deal with disagreement on any subject whatsoever.
The hard left only needed to get the upper hand once. Now it has it will change the rules to ensure it never relinquishes it. As you say by 2020 it will be a 90% Corbynite party, everyone else will have left or been forced out. As a member till fairly recently I hope it is a pyrrhic victory and Labour end up with under 100 MPs at the next GE.
Agreed. The militants need to be shown the public has the most contempt for their politics.
On balance, when the dust settles, tonight may yet turn out to be a poor one for the Trots.
Keeping Corbyn off the ballot was always a long shot, and relied on some very poorly drafted rules notwithstanding the clear intention of Collins that the leader should always have significant support from the PLP.
By contrast, with the clear evidence that the balance of party opinion from existing members has moved against Corbyn, although not yet by quite enough, the six month freeze date et al has been the more significant change. The prospect of new joiners offsetting that move in opinion has been quashed.
Overall I think tonight has improved the chances of Corbyn being toppled, although the odds are still on him hanging on.
Lab really did need Leadsom and her gang of nutters. Would have made even Burnham seem an ok choice by comparison.
Instead the new PM has tacked left so the Lab middle ground has nowhere to go. I would still be very happy with a Stevie K or a Chuka or even Hilary god help us. But they remain unable to construct a sensible position that is to the left of what is nominally now a leftish-ish government.
Leadsom would have been able to appeal to the 7/10 Labour constituencies that voted Leave.
It's a fair point but, and I say this cautiously given all we've seen, I believe that most people compartmentalise such decisions. I just can't see a Lab => Con switch by traditional Lab voters. UKIP perhaps, NOTA could be. But full tilt over to Cons? Not so sure. Cons and their legacy are still the enemy in a lot of Lab constituencies.
So I was on a dinner date with a 20 something Corbynista.
Good Lord.
She stunned you with her eloquence, intelligence, and sophisticated politics? There's bound to be some.
Yup, she even knew how AV works, she's a keeper
So you're divorced?
I'm sincerely sorry. That's a sad thing
PS I recommend 20-something Corbynites, I'm on my third in six months
They like submitting to the Patriarchy when it suits them
It's fine, happened last year, I've moved on.
These 20 year old Corbynistas don't seem to care about winning, they'd rather be ideologically pure than win.
What has happened to the ruthless party of Blair, Campbell, and Mandelson?
In my experience the young Corbynites don't expect to win (though they haven't ruled it out), they just want someone different and authentic with "integrity". They can be excused, because naivety
It's the older Corbynites who are simply stupid, politically. I have a great friend who is a massive Corbynite, she's smart and educated, quite a well known novelist, but she is utterly clueless politically. She thinks Corbyn can win, easily. As in: win a general election.
If I talk to her about the difficult maths of winning her eyes glaze over and she gets bored and says, "Well it shouldn't be like that, he's got integrity". (She simply ignores the ugly jihadist/IRA stuff. )
IT SHOULDN'T BE LIKE THAT. This is the Corbynite position. They imagine a world that SHOULD be, and then Corbyn wins. Idiots.
IYou have it spot on. It's very cult like behaviour. So much is projected on JC.
There's a good blog post doing the rounds on Twitter, by a sociologist (stay with me) specialising in religion. Says the projection/belief/unwillingness to listen to facts is very akin to religious fervour.
I was going to make a long rambly post musing how the labour market will now unfurl with the reduction in the import of cheap labour and the decreasing use of tax credits. Plus the effect of this on the margins of the larger corporations that have been growing in the last decade in the UK who have mainly relied on low margin, high volume models and how their inability to just super charge this model for the foreseeable may actually help the working classes in the long term (but not the short).
But then Corbyn comes along and ruins it, because we may have seen the death of major political party for the first time in the country since the Liberals were gobbled up by Labour.
The trend is that manufacturing is going the way of farming. In China manufacturing is *loosing jobs*. This is because wages have risen, and automation is accelerating. In the US, it is now competitive with China to build highly automated factories vs their lower levels of automation.
Manufacturing will, in only a few years, require a tiny percentage of the work force - like agriculture. As with agriculture, there will be a number of highly paid jobs and some very poorly paid work (moving boxes around, cleaning). Not much in between.
Good point, it is in the middle management that the jobs really have gone. Computerisation has removed the need for so many people shuffling paper and so many people to manage them.
Few jobs in manufacturing are in middle management, they used to be mass production those that remain will be highly skilled, there are still large numbers of middle managers elsewhere
So I was on a dinner date with a 20 something Corbynista.
Good Lord.
She stunned you with her eloquence, intelligence, and sophisticated politics? There's bound to be some.
Yup, she even knew how AV works, she's a keeper
So you're divorced?
I'm sincerely sorry. That's a sad thing
PS I recommend 20-something Corbynites, I'm on my third in six months
They like submitting to the Patriarchy when it suits them
It's fine, happened last year, I've moved on.
These 20 year old Corbynistas don't seem to care about winning, they'd rather be ideologically pure than win.
What has happened to the ruthless party of Blair, Campbell, and Mandelson?
In my experience the young Corbynites don't expect to win (though they haven't ruled it out), they just want someone different and authentic with "integrity". They can be excused, because naivety
It's the older Corbynites who are simply stupid, politically. I have a great friend who is a massive Corbynite, she's smart and educated, quite a well known novelist, but she is utterly clueless politically. She thinks Corbyn can win, easily. As in: win a general election.
If I talk to her about the difficult maths of winning her eyes glaze over and she gets bored and says, "Well it shouldn't be like that, he's got integrity". (She simply ignores the ugly jihadist/IRA stuff. )
IT SHOULDN'T BE LIKE THAT. This is the Corbynite position. They imagine a world that SHOULD be, and then Corbyn wins. Idiots.
IYou have it spot on. It's very cult like behaviour. So much is projected on JC.
Yes. He's a blank canvas for a lot of dissatisfied people. He is Chauncey Gardner, as many on here noted a year back.
What they don't realise is that he represents a very OLD politics, and a nasty, dangerous kind of politics at that.
On the upside, imagine what a genuinely charismatic GOOD guy (or girl) could do, right now. A politician with charisma, and authenticity, and INTEGRITY. who had some great ideas. They would sweep the board. Let us pray.
Amen to that.
Don't know if his being in a relationship with a Corbynista that has contributed but credit where it is due @SeanT has been incisive, fair and indeed sensitive and eloquent about the plight of Labour under Corbyn. Fair play to him!
Looks like a lot of educated guesswork to me... I still think a LEAVER has to fill one of the two top jobs in this government (CoE or Foreign Sec) otherwise it just looks like Mrs May is entirely unserious about Brexit (which of course, she might be)
IMO Corbyn now has to stand on a ticket of mandatory reselection for all MPs.
Do you mean if he wins the contest Labour then should go into a full party reselection process? All MP's....?
Holy crap!
Yes. Corbyn has lost the support of MPs of all political views. Left, Right, Blairite, Brownite, soft left, Blue Labour etc. Obviously all of these people are just 'wrong'. Consequently, the Labour party will become uniformly Corbynite. Unlike any other political party, Labour will cease to be a board church of views. Only Corbynism will be tolerated. It was always going to be this way as many Corbynites I've spoken to cannot deal with disagreement on any subject whatsoever.
The hard left only needed to get the upper hand once. Now it has it will change the rules to ensure it never relinquishes it. As you say by 2020 it will be a 90% Corbynite party, everyone else will have left or been forced out. As a member till fairly recently I hope it is a pyrrhic victory and Labour end up with under 100 MPs at the next GE.
Agreed. The militants need to be shown the public has the most contempt for their politics.
One mistake Labour have made is sidelining Corbyn during the elections, which has allowed some of his supporters to claim he could be an electoral success. His face should have been on the centre of every piece of literature, It would have been worth losing some councils/mayoral elections for..
I stopped using one back in 1985. People could not understand how I could get things done so quickly.
In my last place they used to speak about the mythical "secretary pool" that was in the building, I one day asked where it was and found I had been sat next to them both for the previous six months. The pool had long since been closed down and out of 15 (mainly) women it was only those two left. The jokes about the pool were the older staff members just reminiscing about where the only ladies in the building worked when they joined, by the time I joined it was a mainly female department. In my current place I am the only chap. Accountancy is a women dominated profession these days.
On balance, when the dust settles, tonight may yet turn out to be a poor one for the Trots.
Keeping Corbyn off the ballot was always a long shot, and relied on some very poorly drafted rules notwithstanding the clear intention of Collins that the leader should always have significant support from the PLP.
By contrast, with the clear evidence that the balance of party opinion from existing members has moved against Corbyn, although not yet by quite enough, the six month freeze date et al has been the more significant change. The prospect of new joiners offsetting that move in opinion has been quashed.
Overall I think tonight has improved the chances of Corbyn being toppled, although the odds are still on him hanging on.
Lab really did need Leadsom and her gang of nutters. Would have made even Burnham seem an ok choice by comparison.
Instead the new PM has tacked left so the Lab middle ground has nowhere to go. I would still be very happy with a Stevie K or a Chuka or even Hilary god help us. But they remain unable to construct a sensible position that is to the left of what is nominally now a leftish-ish government.
Leadsom would have been able to appeal to the 7/10 Labour constituencies that voted Leave.
It's a fair point but, and I say this cautiously given all we've seen, I believe that most people compartmentalise such decisions. I just can't see a Lab => Con switch by traditional Lab voters. UKIP perhaps, NOTA could be. But full tilt over to Cons? Not so sure. Cons and their legacy are still the enemy in a lot of Lab constituencies.
+1. In the north, Yorkshire and Wales Labour are not the Labour party, they are simply not the Conservatives. The SNP showed that those votes can be taken (and once taken its a landslide) but that party needs a name that doesn't begin Conservat....
Depending on one's point of view, the premise is surely more relevant for the cultists in the Corbyn camp who have little to worry about. They aren't predicting their world ending.
On another note, spoke to a friend in Barcelona tonight who is a member of Cs. He expects some kind of non-Coalition deal with PP and Rajoy to stay on as PM. Maybe after a symbolic vote against in first round at Cortes. Not so sure myself, but he's pretty close to the Catalan organisation.
That would be hilarious if it is true, like all that Ron Paul stuff about him winning delegates despite losing votes due to supporters sticking around longer or whatever the technicalities were of the processes.
So I was on a dinner date with a 20 something Corbynista.
Good Lord.
She stunned you with her eloquence, intelligence, and sophisticated politics? There's bound to be some.
Yup, she even knew how AV works, she's a keeper
So you're divorced?
I'm sincerely sorry. That's a sad thing
PS I recommend 20-something Corbynites, I'm on my third in six months
They like submitting to the Patriarchy when it suits them
It's fine, happened last year, I've moved on.
These 20 year old Corbynistas don't seem to care about winning, they'd rather be ideologically pure than win.
What has happened to the ruthless party of Blair, Campbell, and Mandelson?
In my experience the young Corbynites don't expect to win (though they haven't ruled it out), they just want someone different and authentic with "integrity". They can be excused, because naivety
It's the older Corbynites who are simply stupid, politically. I have a great friend who is a massive Corbynite, she's smart and educated, quite a well known novelist, but she is utterly clueless politically. She thinks Corbyn can win, easily. As in: win a general election.
If I talk to her about the difficult maths of winning her eyes glaze over and she gets bored and says, "Well it shouldn't be like that, he's got integrity". (She simply ignores the ugly jihadist/IRA stuff. )
IT SHOULDN'T BE LIKE THAT. This is the Corbynite position. They imagine a world that SHOULD be, and then Corbyn wins. Idiots.
IYou have it spot on. It's very cult like behaviour. So much is projected on JC.
There's a good blog post doing the rounds on Twitter, by a sociologist (stay with me) specialising in religion. Says the projection/belief/unwillingness to listen to facts is very akin to religious fervour.
Yes, there are points of comparison with the Millerites.
IMO Corbyn now has to stand on a ticket of mandatory reselection for all MPs.
Do you mean if he wins the contest Labour then should go into a full party reselection process? All MP's....?
Holy crap!
Yes. Corbyn has lost the support of MPs of all political views. Left, Right, Blairite, Brownite, soft left, Blue Labour etc. Obviously all of these people are just 'wrong'. Consequently, the Labour party will become uniformly Corbynite. Unlike any other political party, Labour will cease to be a board church of views. Only Corbynism will be tolerated. It was always going to be this way as many Corbynites I've spoken to cannot deal with disagreement on any subject whatsoever.
The hard left only needed to get the upper hand once. Now it has it will change the rules to ensure it never relinquishes it. As you say by 2020 it will be a 90% Corbynite party, everyone else will have left or been forced out. As a member till fairly recently I hope it is a pyrrhic victory and Labour end up with under 100 MPs at the next GE.
Agreed. The militants need to be shown the public has the most contempt for their politics.
That's quite a few years before it will be shown then, unfortunately.
On balance, when the dust settles, tonight may yet turn out to be a poor one for the Trots.
Keeping Corbyn off the ballot was always a long shot, and relied on some very poorly drafted rules notwithstanding the clear intention of Collins that the leader should always have significant support from the PLP.
By contrast, with the clear evidence that the balance of party opinion from existing members has moved against Corbyn, although not yet by quite enough, the six month freeze date et al has been the more significant change. The prospect of new joiners offsetting that move in opinion has been quashed.
Overall I think tonight has improved the chances of Corbyn being toppled, although the odds are still on him hanging on.
Lab really did need Leadsom and her gang of nutters. Would have made even Burnham seem an ok choice by comparison.
Instead the new PM has tacked left so the Lab middle ground has nowhere to go. I would still be very happy with a Stevie K or a Chuka or even Hilary god help us. But they remain unable to construct a sensible position that is to the left of what is nominally now a leftish-ish government.
Leadsom would have been able to appeal to the 7/10 Labour constituencies that voted Leave.
It's a fair point but, and I say this cautiously given all we've seen, I believe that most people compartmentalise such decisions. I just can't see a Lab => Con switch by traditional Lab voters. UKIP perhaps, NOTA could be. But full tilt over to Cons? Not so sure. Cons and their legacy are still the enemy in a lot of Lab constituencies.
Turnout is very low in those Labour constituencies. The referendum turnout was 72%.
IMO Corbyn now has to stand on a ticket of mandatory reselection for all MPs.
Do you mean if he wins the contest Labour then should go into a full party reselection process? All MP's....?
Holy crap!
Yes. Corbyn has lost the support of MPs of all political views. Left, Right, Blairite, Brownite, soft left, Blue Labour etc. Obviously all of these people are just 'wrong'. Consequently, the Labour party will become uniformly Corbynite. Unlike any other political party, Labour will cease to be a board church of views. Only Corbynism will be tolerated. It was always going to be this way as many Corbynites I've spoken to cannot deal with disagreement on any subject whatsoever.
The hard left only needed to get the upper hand once. Now it has it will change the rules to ensure it never relinquishes it. As you say by 2020 it will be a 90% Corbynite party, everyone else will have left or been forced out. As a member till fairly recently I hope it is a pyrrhic victory and Labour end up with under 100 MPs at the next GE.
It'll certainly be under 200. And in a lonely corner of the Rochdale count someone will be mumbling "Eagles would have done worse" :-)
My seat in the North West has a Labour majority of 96 and I reckon the Tories will win it by well over 5000 in 2020 if Corbyn is still there.
Comments
Manufacturing will, in only a few years, require a tiny percentage of the work force - like agriculture. As with agriculture, there will be a number of highly paid jobs and some very poorly paid work (moving boxes around, cleaning). Not much in between.
The LOTO is the leader of the party with the most seats in the commons
Their argument is - presumably - without whips Labour isn't a "party" but a group of independents that were elected under a common manifesto.
Tenuous at best
https://twitter.com/SimmPippa/status/752948854794907648
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_grave_disorder_in_the_British_House_of_Commons
It would take well over a hundred people resigning the whip (thus effectively defecting) to make SNP official opposition and even then essentially the SDPmk2 would be the official opposition.
"who!"
"whom!"
at each other for four hours.
In all seriousness, it's probably 1m people at most. The rest? They tune out.
I am not at all sure that UKIP is capable of having the debate that is needed to set their future direction, let alone choose a leader that could implement it.
A fantastic piece of performance art will definitely keep the audience happy.
Keeping Corbyn off the ballot was always a long shot, and relied on some very poorly drafted rules notwithstanding the clear intention of Collins that the leader should always have significant support from the PLP.
By contrast, with the clear evidence that the balance of party opinion from existing members has moved against Corbyn, although not yet by quite enough, the six month freeze date et al has been the more significant change. The prospect of new joiners offsetting that move in opinion has been quashed.
Overall I think tonight has improved the chances of Corbyn being toppled, although the odds are still on him hanging on.
You can't just make things up as you go along! It's not a good look for a Party that wants to be trusted to uphold the rule of law.
Whilst there are individual supporters of Corbyn who remain courteous and thoughtful, the movement forming around him is, at its heart, a form of political puritanism, for which Corbyn is a model puritan leader. It is a movement of moral certainty, largely devoid of policy, fuelled by symbolic struggles against evil, treachery and compromise.
If we recognise this, the current leadership contest increasingly looks like another dead end. One of the characteristics of a puritan movement is that its sense of moral mission trumps all. Corbynist puritans will not allow their sense of purpose to be thwarted by a leadership election defeat – even if that were to happen. They will continue to organise, try to take over the running of CLPs, de-select ‘disloyal’ MPs where they can, and carry forward the fight which is never ultimately about forming a government but overcoming their opponents. Trying to fight with puritans is ultimately self-defeating as it merely re-energises their sense of being engaged in a grand moral drama, struggling against forces of darkness within and beyond their movement.
It is not defeatism but common sense now to initiate a clear split within the Party, even if this might mean letting go of the ‘Labour’ name. This is not a re-run of the 1980s, for what we are seeing is now not the equivalent of a split between an SDP and a gradually reforming Labour Party, but a split between the SDP and the Militant Tendency. We should not fear a significant division on the Left, because the Corbynist movement will, in time, turn in on itself as it finds new ‘traitors’ to blame for the electoral failures that will inevitably face them. There is a deep current in English cultural life that is antipathetic to puritan movements, with good historical reasons. We should trust those deep pragmatic sentiments in our national life, believe that a Corbynist movement left to itself will be banished to electoral obscurity, and take on the deeper challenge of ensuring that the one nation aspirations that Theresa May sought to lay claim to yesterday are genuinely realised as we enter this crucial period of national reconstruction.
https://afterlabour.org/2016/07/12/corbyn-and-the-new-political-puritans/
Instead the new PM has tacked left so the Lab middle ground has nowhere to go. I would still be very happy with a Stevie K or a Chuka or even Hilary god help us. But they remain unable to construct a sensible position that is to the left of what is nominally now a leftish-ish government.
https://twitter.com/austinrathe/status/752970245720055808
Lawyers, cancel your hols!
#CarryOnCorbyn
Wouldn't it be great if it was all women and Amber Rudd was not in it?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/12/women-to-make-up-half-of-cabinet-after-theresa-mays-reshuffle/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Secretaries have gone.
I stopped using one back in 1985. People could not understand how I could get things done so quickly.
Have you read When Prophecy Fails?
But £25 to vote for Angela Eagle isn't quite such a good deal.
Jon Cruddas, your time to save Labour is now or never.
Labour Conference in Liverpool this year...
#CarryOnCorbyn
If you don't want to pay the £25 fee there is no better time than now to join an affiliated union. Doing so will give you the right to vote
What a mess
Eagle was only 10% behind and some of the members will not be eligible. Add to that the polling that suggests Union members think Corbyn is crap and that the contender might be someone better than Eagle. Still a chance?
As it should be, - jolly unfortunate for the rest of the party, but thems the rules.
One mistake Labour have made is sidelining Corbyn during the elections, which has allowed some of his supporters to claim he could be an electoral success. His face should have been on the centre of every piece of literature, It would have been worth losing some councils/mayoral elections for..
The jokes about the pool were the older staff members just reminiscing about where the only ladies in the building worked when they joined, by the time I joined it was a mainly female department. In my current place I am the only chap. Accountancy is a women dominated profession these days.
On another note, spoke to a friend in Barcelona tonight who is a member of Cs. He expects some kind of non-Coalition deal with PP and Rajoy to stay on as PM. Maybe after a symbolic vote against in first round at Cortes. Not so sure myself, but he's pretty close to the Catalan organisation.
John McTernan could, possibly, be right about something!
Interesting times, indeed.
LOL. Still, I doubt it will be enough. Nothing, I say nothing, will get the baby's hand off the bottle.